How to talk about life insurance without paranoia?
September 14, 2014 6:17 AM Subscribe
At a dinner party at our home a few years ago one of our guests brought up issues of life insurance and their concerns about adequate coverage for their family. They asked my husband and I how we manage our policies. My husband announced to the group that he refuses to get life insurance because he feels such a policy would prompt me to actively seek ways to end his life. He was serious. This has caused no small amount of angst on my part, and I need some advice.
My husband's comment at our dinner party prompted the room to fall silent. Although we had all had a few drinks my husband was clearly speaking his mind. Although our relationship is less than perfect, I would never imagine doing anything to hurt another human being, let alone the man I married and have had a child with. It was a shock, and was tremendously upsetting to me to know that he trusts me so little and that he thinks that I could conceive of such action. I attempted to discuss this the following day and to explain to my husband how hurt I was by his perceptions of me, but he refused to discuss it saying that is simply how he sees things.
Fast forward to today, when life insurance came up again. Our daughter was talking about how Harry Houdini died from a sucker punch. My husband, whom she sometimes punches in the belly while playing, said "that's why you should never sucker punch me." I commented (jokingly, but unthinkingly) "and you don't want Daddy to die - he doesn't have life insurance!" My husband immediately bristled, announcing to our 10 year old daughter that he does not have life insurance because he thinks I will try to kill him off if he does. My daughter sat in shock as I asked my husband if he truly thinks of me as so unloving, heartless and immoral. He said it was clear that I am such a person, as evidenced by my comment.
Just a bit more background:
The topic of life insurance first came up very early in our relationship as we were creating living wills, at which point I broached the subject of securing policies for both of us. My husband refused to get a policy, and furthermore said that he would not support my getting a policy either because he thought it an unnecessary household expense. I pursued the topic only one other time after our daughter was born, but to no avail. My husband and I do have a very strained relationship, but I have never for a second wished any ill on this man.
Several questions for metafilter: Are these concerns typical? Does it seem like excessive paranoia on my husband's part? How can I apologize to my husband for the bad joke I made today, but make clear to him that it WAS a bad joke - not that I want him dead to get life insurance money? Am I wrong to be heartsick and deeply hurt that the man I married views me in such a horrible light? Am I wrong to be upset that he should talk like this about me with our daughter. How should I try to engage him on this? Should I just drop it? And am I wrong to be concerned that we don't have life insurance?
My husband's comment at our dinner party prompted the room to fall silent. Although we had all had a few drinks my husband was clearly speaking his mind. Although our relationship is less than perfect, I would never imagine doing anything to hurt another human being, let alone the man I married and have had a child with. It was a shock, and was tremendously upsetting to me to know that he trusts me so little and that he thinks that I could conceive of such action. I attempted to discuss this the following day and to explain to my husband how hurt I was by his perceptions of me, but he refused to discuss it saying that is simply how he sees things.
Fast forward to today, when life insurance came up again. Our daughter was talking about how Harry Houdini died from a sucker punch. My husband, whom she sometimes punches in the belly while playing, said "that's why you should never sucker punch me." I commented (jokingly, but unthinkingly) "and you don't want Daddy to die - he doesn't have life insurance!" My husband immediately bristled, announcing to our 10 year old daughter that he does not have life insurance because he thinks I will try to kill him off if he does. My daughter sat in shock as I asked my husband if he truly thinks of me as so unloving, heartless and immoral. He said it was clear that I am such a person, as evidenced by my comment.
Just a bit more background:
The topic of life insurance first came up very early in our relationship as we were creating living wills, at which point I broached the subject of securing policies for both of us. My husband refused to get a policy, and furthermore said that he would not support my getting a policy either because he thought it an unnecessary household expense. I pursued the topic only one other time after our daughter was born, but to no avail. My husband and I do have a very strained relationship, but I have never for a second wished any ill on this man.
Several questions for metafilter: Are these concerns typical? Does it seem like excessive paranoia on my husband's part? How can I apologize to my husband for the bad joke I made today, but make clear to him that it WAS a bad joke - not that I want him dead to get life insurance money? Am I wrong to be heartsick and deeply hurt that the man I married views me in such a horrible light? Am I wrong to be upset that he should talk like this about me with our daughter. How should I try to engage him on this? Should I just drop it? And am I wrong to be concerned that we don't have life insurance?
Also, the way you discuss this with a rational person is, "We don't buy life insurance for ourselves, we buy it for our children."
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:24 AM on September 14, 2014 [46 favorites]
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:24 AM on September 14, 2014 [46 favorites]
The only circumstance I can imagine in which your husband's beliefs wouldn't be completely insane is if you've actually attempted to murder him at some point in the past.
posted by Ndwright at 6:32 AM on September 14, 2014 [57 favorites]
posted by Ndwright at 6:32 AM on September 14, 2014 [57 favorites]
My husband immediately bristled, announcing to our 10 year old daughter that he does not have life insurance because he thinks I will try to kill him off if he does. My daughter sat in shock as I asked my husband if he truly thinks of me as so unloving, heartless and immoral. He said it was clear that I am such a person, as evidenced by my comment.
I realise you were shocked, but for the love of God don't expose your daughter to this kind of... this is horrible, and now she can't unknow her father thinks so little of her mother.
Please leave this man. Please do not live a life that demonstrates to you daughter that it's OK to stay with someone who doesn't love you and thinks and says awful things about you.
And yes, your family should have life insurance, but that is so not the most pressing issue.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:33 AM on September 14, 2014 [97 favorites]
I realise you were shocked, but for the love of God don't expose your daughter to this kind of... this is horrible, and now she can't unknow her father thinks so little of her mother.
Please leave this man. Please do not live a life that demonstrates to you daughter that it's OK to stay with someone who doesn't love you and thinks and says awful things about you.
And yes, your family should have life insurance, but that is so not the most pressing issue.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:33 AM on September 14, 2014 [97 favorites]
Or if he had relatives where this had happened. Otherwise, with a kid it's pretty much standard for both parents to have policies in case. Something else weird is going on and you should consider discussing this by yourself with a therapist to figure out what you want to do.
posted by viggorlijah at 6:36 AM on September 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by viggorlijah at 6:36 AM on September 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
Also - who has financial control? My husband handles doing the policies because I found it dull but it was a mutual decision and it's a little red flag that a big decision like this appears to be his. Do you not have your own finances? Does he make all the major financial decisions? Do you have any kid of resources that are yours or accessible by you?
posted by viggorlijah at 6:39 AM on September 14, 2014 [10 favorites]
posted by viggorlijah at 6:39 AM on September 14, 2014 [10 favorites]
My daughter sat in shock as I asked my husband if he truly thinks of me as so unloving, heartless and immoral. He said it was clear that I am such a person, as evidenced by my comment.
Your daughter is right to be shocked. This is shockingly unacceptable behavior. These are supposed to be her role models.
posted by oceanjesse at 6:47 AM on September 14, 2014 [16 favorites]
Your daughter is right to be shocked. This is shockingly unacceptable behavior. These are supposed to be her role models.
posted by oceanjesse at 6:47 AM on September 14, 2014 [16 favorites]
This is weird and irrational enough that I'm wondering if it's the only instance in which he's been really weird and irrational. Does this seem out of character? If so, does he have some sort of intense phobia of thinking about his own death or something like that? I'm trying to think of an explanation that would not be that your husband is deeply unhinged.
People who have dependents get life insurance if they can afford it and can get it. It's part of being a responsible parent. The way that rational people think about this is "it is painful to think about the possibility that I would die while my kids were still young, and I think that would be a tragedy for them and my surviving spouse, but at least I can insure that it's not a financial calamity for them," not "oh no, this gives my spouse an incentive to kill me."
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:52 AM on September 14, 2014 [21 favorites]
People who have dependents get life insurance if they can afford it and can get it. It's part of being a responsible parent. The way that rational people think about this is "it is painful to think about the possibility that I would die while my kids were still young, and I think that would be a tragedy for them and my surviving spouse, but at least I can insure that it's not a financial calamity for them," not "oh no, this gives my spouse an incentive to kill me."
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:52 AM on September 14, 2014 [21 favorites]
Your husband's behavior is so full of red flags. I'm glad you asked.
No, being concerned your wife might kill you for insurance money is not typical in healthy, safe, equitable relationships. Yes, excessive paranoia, possibly completely delusional. It's pretty clear you cannot actually engage him on this if he's willing to make your daughter think you want him dead. You are right to be heartsick, deeply hurt, and more.
For the sake of your daughter, as well as yourself, please get some counseling. On your own to start with. You need objective, in-person help. If you have to ask this question, a fair chance there are other behaviors you've grown accustomed to seeing as typical. I grew up with a mentally ill parent, and partly because most of the other adults in my life tried to play down her behavior as eccentric or moody rather than what it actually was, it took me years to recognize her illness and properly protect myself. It would have helped me more if the other adults in my life had sooner called out the behavior as abusive and out of my control.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 6:56 AM on September 14, 2014 [37 favorites]
No, being concerned your wife might kill you for insurance money is not typical in healthy, safe, equitable relationships. Yes, excessive paranoia, possibly completely delusional. It's pretty clear you cannot actually engage him on this if he's willing to make your daughter think you want him dead. You are right to be heartsick, deeply hurt, and more.
For the sake of your daughter, as well as yourself, please get some counseling. On your own to start with. You need objective, in-person help. If you have to ask this question, a fair chance there are other behaviors you've grown accustomed to seeing as typical. I grew up with a mentally ill parent, and partly because most of the other adults in my life tried to play down her behavior as eccentric or moody rather than what it actually was, it took me years to recognize her illness and properly protect myself. It would have helped me more if the other adults in my life had sooner called out the behavior as abusive and out of my control.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 6:56 AM on September 14, 2014 [37 favorites]
I don't view this conflict as being about life insurance at all. If you're right that he's being totally sincere, then your husband believes that you would kill him for money. This view of his must affect other aspects of your relationship-- indeed, it's already affecting your daughter. Talking about the benefits of life insurance is not going to fix the real issue.
Honestly, I would not stay married to someone who thought of me this way-- but we know very little about your marriage. At the very least, though, I would hope that you could talk about his conviction that you would murder him if the payout is big enough. Maybe he does have some mental health issue that causes him to think this way. Maybe he doesn't really believe it. But it has to be talked about.
posted by Henrietta Stackpole at 7:07 AM on September 14, 2014 [6 favorites]
Honestly, I would not stay married to someone who thought of me this way-- but we know very little about your marriage. At the very least, though, I would hope that you could talk about his conviction that you would murder him if the payout is big enough. Maybe he does have some mental health issue that causes him to think this way. Maybe he doesn't really believe it. But it has to be talked about.
posted by Henrietta Stackpole at 7:07 AM on September 14, 2014 [6 favorites]
First step for me would be to sit down with my partner and talk about this directly. You've mentioned only indirect accusations about this (him telling a third party that he worries that insurance = danger to him). Tell him you two need to discuss this strange thought he has about what you'd do for insurance money. If he truly does think you'd kill him for a bit of money, then I wouldn't consider this a stable relationship. Trust is the #1 thing in any relationship, and if his level of trust is such that he thinks you value money over his life, it may be time to talk about getting the heck out.
posted by xingcat at 7:11 AM on September 14, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by xingcat at 7:11 AM on September 14, 2014 [4 favorites]
In the absence of evidence to the contrary, people tend to assume that other people are like them. So your husband may think that, given a proper incentive, he would kill you. Get him into therapy or get away from him.
posted by Etrigan at 7:23 AM on September 14, 2014 [107 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 7:23 AM on September 14, 2014 [107 favorites]
I also feel compelled to add that when homicide is put on the table as a possible outcome of the relationship between two people, you can't really take that back. That is now a thing that is out in the open and at play. I would just flat out not feel safe and not feel my daughter was safe, either.
I am a huge fan of marital therapy, but it's something I would only consider engaging in when everyone was safe. This man does not seem healthy or rational, and I would get out and work from a place of safety. If there are firearms in the home or if your husband has access to firearms, doubly so.
posted by DarlingBri at 7:26 AM on September 14, 2014 [41 favorites]
I am a huge fan of marital therapy, but it's something I would only consider engaging in when everyone was safe. This man does not seem healthy or rational, and I would get out and work from a place of safety. If there are firearms in the home or if your husband has access to firearms, doubly so.
posted by DarlingBri at 7:26 AM on September 14, 2014 [41 favorites]
OP, this does not sound safe. I am so sorry you're going through this. Has he behaved in other ways that are concerning or irrational/aggresive? It might be worth calling a domestic abuse center and talking with them about your situation and creating a safety plan/exit plan for you and your daughter.
posted by xarnop at 7:29 AM on September 14, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by xarnop at 7:29 AM on September 14, 2014 [7 favorites]
I don't think you should be whipping out the divorce papers over one incidence. We all have irrational fears, maybe this is just that one personality quirk of his. Or maybe it's a sign of mental illness. I think you owe it to your family to figure it out. And if he watches a lot of those investigation shows, I can see how he would develop this fear. You see supposedly happy couples, and then someone dies because the money was more important. So he should stop if he indulges in those.
A marriage counselor would be great, as you could air your concerns (both of you), with a neutral voice there. Obviously neither of you feels safe. His feelings aren't invalid just because they're unconventional or signs of illness.
posted by Aranquis at 7:31 AM on September 14, 2014 [7 favorites]
A marriage counselor would be great, as you could air your concerns (both of you), with a neutral voice there. Obviously neither of you feels safe. His feelings aren't invalid just because they're unconventional or signs of illness.
posted by Aranquis at 7:31 AM on September 14, 2014 [7 favorites]
As a mother who has tried to support a mentally unstable man saying stuff like this regularly, I can not emphasize enough that he needs to understand that this kind of behavior is traumatizing to you and your child. Seriously if a kid is going to bed wondering if mommy is going to kill daddy, this is beyond marriage counseling and well into psychological abuse of a child.
I made the mistake of being understanding and trying to help him get help while he continued to have access to his child. It became, slowly, a very dangerous situation, and while I understand if you want to stay and work it out, I still think it would be very worthwhile to talk to a domestic violence counselor about a back up plan in the event this situation escalates much sooner than you think. The fact that I handled the terrifying things he was saying by trying to have empathetic understanding conversations and continued to allow him to have visits can actually work against any claims you may eventually want or NEED to make about child safety. I know we all have weird quirks and maybe this really is a random weird quirk that can be worked out easily with therapy, but this is the kind of sign that if you don't get very very clear feedback he understands it is not ever ok for him to discuss mommy killing daddy in front of his own daughter, it will be very important to have an exit plan in mind. And if it comes to that, how you handle this present situation may be relevant.
posted by xarnop at 7:45 AM on September 14, 2014 [20 favorites]
I made the mistake of being understanding and trying to help him get help while he continued to have access to his child. It became, slowly, a very dangerous situation, and while I understand if you want to stay and work it out, I still think it would be very worthwhile to talk to a domestic violence counselor about a back up plan in the event this situation escalates much sooner than you think. The fact that I handled the terrifying things he was saying by trying to have empathetic understanding conversations and continued to allow him to have visits can actually work against any claims you may eventually want or NEED to make about child safety. I know we all have weird quirks and maybe this really is a random weird quirk that can be worked out easily with therapy, but this is the kind of sign that if you don't get very very clear feedback he understands it is not ever ok for him to discuss mommy killing daddy in front of his own daughter, it will be very important to have an exit plan in mind. And if it comes to that, how you handle this present situation may be relevant.
posted by xarnop at 7:45 AM on September 14, 2014 [20 favorites]
My own opinion is that some people in this thread are overreacting, and that as Aranquis says immediately above, it isn't time to whip out the divorce papers. But it sure sounds like this is a problem that you are right not to ignore any more.
Some people are really irrational about some things. Plenty of people are irrational about death -- to state the obvious, it's something that's hard to think about. And of course it is a commonplace that many people are irrational about issues surrounding money and financial planning. But his irrationality doesn't require you to be complicit in his irrationality. His behavior is very bad. On the other hand, I've seen spouses in much tougher situations, in which a couple of thoughtless and rude remarks are just a drop in the bucket.
Yes, it would be nice if you could have some sort of structured or mediated discussion about this stuff, either with a financial counselor or marriage counselor. That is where I would begin. Of course you are legitimately upset about all of this, and of course there are plenty of circumstances where it is appropriate and rational to get life insurance. You are more than entitled to find a counselor to talk to about this -- and while it would be nice to get your husband involved in such a conversation, it isn't required.
I am wary of making large pronouncements about other people's marriages. They are often mysterious to everyone else in the universe besides the two people involved. But you are absolutely entitled, within reason, to pursue what you want and to behave like an adult in order to make sure everyone is appropriately taken care of. That certainly includes providing for yourself and your kid(s) in the event that something awful happens. And that certainly includes making reasonable efforts to ensure that you and your husband have a meeting of the minds about Big Issues. What can you do in order to have this kind of meeting of the minds with your husband? As mentioned above, some kind of mediated conversation may be worth investigating.
posted by Mr. Justice at 7:48 AM on September 14, 2014 [5 favorites]
Some people are really irrational about some things. Plenty of people are irrational about death -- to state the obvious, it's something that's hard to think about. And of course it is a commonplace that many people are irrational about issues surrounding money and financial planning. But his irrationality doesn't require you to be complicit in his irrationality. His behavior is very bad. On the other hand, I've seen spouses in much tougher situations, in which a couple of thoughtless and rude remarks are just a drop in the bucket.
Yes, it would be nice if you could have some sort of structured or mediated discussion about this stuff, either with a financial counselor or marriage counselor. That is where I would begin. Of course you are legitimately upset about all of this, and of course there are plenty of circumstances where it is appropriate and rational to get life insurance. You are more than entitled to find a counselor to talk to about this -- and while it would be nice to get your husband involved in such a conversation, it isn't required.
I am wary of making large pronouncements about other people's marriages. They are often mysterious to everyone else in the universe besides the two people involved. But you are absolutely entitled, within reason, to pursue what you want and to behave like an adult in order to make sure everyone is appropriately taken care of. That certainly includes providing for yourself and your kid(s) in the event that something awful happens. And that certainly includes making reasonable efforts to ensure that you and your husband have a meeting of the minds about Big Issues. What can you do in order to have this kind of meeting of the minds with your husband? As mentioned above, some kind of mediated conversation may be worth investigating.
posted by Mr. Justice at 7:48 AM on September 14, 2014 [5 favorites]
As everyone has said, no, this is not typical, reasonable, or acceptable. And I feel strongly that having children and no life insurance is irresponsible.
You should start going to marital counseling. Go alone if he won't go. This is a big deal.
And as far as that exchange in front if your child goes - you realize that was inappropriate on both your parts all the way through, right? His issues aside, "poking the bear" on sensitive marital issues in front of your kiddo is crappy.
posted by phearlez at 7:49 AM on September 14, 2014 [20 favorites]
You should start going to marital counseling. Go alone if he won't go. This is a big deal.
And as far as that exchange in front if your child goes - you realize that was inappropriate on both your parts all the way through, right? His issues aside, "poking the bear" on sensitive marital issues in front of your kiddo is crappy.
posted by phearlez at 7:49 AM on September 14, 2014 [20 favorites]
If you do have some control over assets couldn't you just take out insurance policies on both of you? And maybe set conditions so that if you died a trusted relative would have control of the insurance money to make sure it really went for your daughter's needs.
posted by mareli at 7:54 AM on September 14, 2014
posted by mareli at 7:54 AM on September 14, 2014
If you do have some control over assets couldn't you just take out insurance policies on both of you?This isn't really about insurance. If the OP's husband were merely refusing to talk about insurance or claiming it was unnecessary to have insurance or accusing her of thinking he was an irresponsible driver when she brought up insurance, it would be a different issue. What's weird here is that the OP's husband thinks there's a possibility that she would kill him. Being weird about finances and death is not off-the-charts strange marital behavior. Thinking your spouse has homicidal intent kind of is.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:58 AM on September 14, 2014 [13 favorites]
Last comment- I will add that if after your husband made that comment, your concern in this question is still what to do about THE INSURANCE, that is also very concerning and makes me worry these kinds of disturbing comments could potentially have become normalized to you. And yes, please please do not try to talk about any of this in front of the child. I still think some counseling for you about what is going on in your relationship OUTSIDE of marriage counseling is really important. You may both need some better education about how to protect your daughter from toxic conversations, but elevating a child inappropriate conversation to discussing a genuine concern of homicide in front of a child is really a huge order of magnitude escalation. Dealing with toxic aspects of your marriage and how they might bubble over into affecting your child (and how to keep her safe from that) is marriage counselor territory. Dealing with the fact your husband is telling your daughter that you might kill him merits at least a discussion with a counselor trained in abusive or dangerous situations.
posted by xarnop at 8:03 AM on September 14, 2014 [17 favorites]
posted by xarnop at 8:03 AM on September 14, 2014 [17 favorites]
If he genuinely thinks you want to kill him, why hasn't he run screaming from your home to get a divorce?
Much as I want to say he sounds like a jerk, this sounds like mental illness territory. And I would seriously be considering divorce in this situation because I don't know how an already rocky relationship can come back from this.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:26 AM on September 14, 2014 [3 favorites]
Much as I want to say he sounds like a jerk, this sounds like mental illness territory. And I would seriously be considering divorce in this situation because I don't know how an already rocky relationship can come back from this.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:26 AM on September 14, 2014 [3 favorites]
No, this is not normal. This is O_o . It is not at all normal for one spouse to think the other is out to kill him for money, unless the relationship has been abusive (and I'm assuming yours is not). And it certainly is NOT normal for a father to tell his daughter that Mommy wants to kill him. Yikes.
Has your husband always been like this, or has it come on suddenly over the past months/year or so? Especially if it's the latter - he needs a DOCTOR. Stat. I have heard of people going off the deep end with paranoia or other acting-out, and it turned out to be a brain condition (a tumor, early onset dementia). Tell his PCP what you just told us, and frog-march him to the doctor's office.
Counseling for you and especially your daughter is in order - the impact on her of having her father accuse her mother of wishing him dead has got to be staggering.
You decide if you want to split up, but please do get him to a doctor.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 8:26 AM on September 14, 2014 [7 favorites]
Has your husband always been like this, or has it come on suddenly over the past months/year or so? Especially if it's the latter - he needs a DOCTOR. Stat. I have heard of people going off the deep end with paranoia or other acting-out, and it turned out to be a brain condition (a tumor, early onset dementia). Tell his PCP what you just told us, and frog-march him to the doctor's office.
Counseling for you and especially your daughter is in order - the impact on her of having her father accuse her mother of wishing him dead has got to be staggering.
You decide if you want to split up, but please do get him to a doctor.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 8:26 AM on September 14, 2014 [7 favorites]
I echo an above statement. Your husband beliveing that you are capable of killing him if you had the motivation, means that he would consider killing you. Nobody every attributes a thought process to someone else, that they are not capable of having.
This sounds unbelievably scary and I urge you to go into your local women's crisis centre, or abuse center. AND JUST ASK TO TALK. Tell them what is going on.
They can help you decide if this is part of abuse.
But really, you need to think about your daughter. And what would happen to her if neither of you had life insurance.
posted by misspony at 8:31 AM on September 14, 2014 [11 favorites]
This sounds unbelievably scary and I urge you to go into your local women's crisis centre, or abuse center. AND JUST ASK TO TALK. Tell them what is going on.
They can help you decide if this is part of abuse.
But really, you need to think about your daughter. And what would happen to her if neither of you had life insurance.
posted by misspony at 8:31 AM on September 14, 2014 [11 favorites]
Depending on your financial situation, there may be other ways to invest and/or save so that a surviving spouse and child would be provided for. It's really a question for a financial planner. Life insurance is not the only answer.
Also, your husband's assertion that you would kill him for money is not normal. I think it would be a good idea to talk to a counselor, either with him or on your own, if he refuses to go.
posted by tuesdayschild at 8:34 AM on September 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
Also, your husband's assertion that you would kill him for money is not normal. I think it would be a good idea to talk to a counselor, either with him or on your own, if he refuses to go.
posted by tuesdayschild at 8:34 AM on September 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
You need counseling, I'd say the situation is almost desperate. It doesn't sound like a quirk for him, given that you mentioned your relationship is on the rocks otherwise, there are clearly other problems. The only way that you could address this issue without counseling is if you had a happy, healthy relationship otherwise and this was the only thing you had a conflict about. Which it's clearly not.
The only logical way to interpret his comments is that he is more afraid of you killing him than he is worried about the fact that you and your daughter could be, or would be, left in dire financial straits if he died. As other answerers have pointed out, unless he has some real reason to believe that you will kill him, this is wildly inappropriate. And I would tend to agree that trying to get into a rational conversation with him about why he feels that way is unlikely to get you anywhere without professional help, given that he has been stonewalling you on it so far.
I hope he will agree to seek help with you and in time, see that his concerns about this are not valid. However, this is so far outside the norm that I'd have real doubts about that happening, and would start, if I were in your position, by getting myself life insurance. One thing that you could also do is schedule for both of you to see a financial planner. One of the items on their assessment is usually to analyze your need for life insurance and discuss the importance of that with you. I think you'd have to be prepared for him to say what he's been saying about you killing him in front of the financial planner, though, and that they really won't know how to respond to that - hence, counseling first and foremost...
posted by treehorn+bunny at 8:35 AM on September 14, 2014 [3 favorites]
The only logical way to interpret his comments is that he is more afraid of you killing him than he is worried about the fact that you and your daughter could be, or would be, left in dire financial straits if he died. As other answerers have pointed out, unless he has some real reason to believe that you will kill him, this is wildly inappropriate. And I would tend to agree that trying to get into a rational conversation with him about why he feels that way is unlikely to get you anywhere without professional help, given that he has been stonewalling you on it so far.
I hope he will agree to seek help with you and in time, see that his concerns about this are not valid. However, this is so far outside the norm that I'd have real doubts about that happening, and would start, if I were in your position, by getting myself life insurance. One thing that you could also do is schedule for both of you to see a financial planner. One of the items on their assessment is usually to analyze your need for life insurance and discuss the importance of that with you. I think you'd have to be prepared for him to say what he's been saying about you killing him in front of the financial planner, though, and that they really won't know how to respond to that - hence, counseling first and foremost...
posted by treehorn+bunny at 8:35 AM on September 14, 2014 [3 favorites]
Another vote for getting into therapy-- both as a couple and individually. (The latter for you at least; you can't make him go, although clearly he needs to.) I don't know if couples therapy can help the two of you move forward together but if you can shed some light on this dynamic with the aid of a professional, it might help you make more sense of what has been going on for the past ten years and, particularly, how this might be affecting your daughter.
posted by BibiRose at 8:44 AM on September 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by BibiRose at 8:44 AM on September 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
Personally, I wouldn't want to be married to someone who seriously thinks I would kill them for the insurance money. I wouldn't want to be married to someone who is more worried about that than the future well-being of our child should we die unexpectedly. I wouldn't want to be married to someone who would make such comments in front of our ten year old child.
I wouldn't want to be married to someone who thinks I would kill them for any reason other than requested compassionate plug-pulling or assisted suicide. This is not a healthy dynamic. Seek counselling, alone if you have to but together if you can.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:45 AM on September 14, 2014 [15 favorites]
I wouldn't want to be married to someone who thinks I would kill them for any reason other than requested compassionate plug-pulling or assisted suicide. This is not a healthy dynamic. Seek counselling, alone if you have to but together if you can.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:45 AM on September 14, 2014 [15 favorites]
I agree with others that the life insurance is not really the central issue here. This really does seem indicative of some major underlying issues on your husband's part.
First of all, there is something very, very wrong when one partner refuses to get life insurance because they're afraid their partner might kill them to collect on the policy. In absence of some serious evidence to support this idea, this goes beyond typical "irrational" fears.
Here's the thing that makes this even more bizarre: If he actually legitimately believes you are the type of person who would kill him for money, why is he still with you? That inconsistency makes it seem all the more likely that there is some underlying mental illness contributing to his belief.
Now, the final layer: The fact that he would say this in front of guests and your daughter. That is something that people just don't do. In particular, it is so beyond inappropriate, and honestly really traumatic, to subject your daughter to that.
Frankly, it's concerning to me that you even have to question whether or not this is normal. I'm not saying this to shame or blame you. I'm actually just wondering if there's a larger pattern of this kind of behavior that you've become normalized to, which is why you have to get an external reality check.
Absolutely get counseling for yourself and for your daughter. Ideally your husband would go to couples counseling and individual counseling as well, but I wouldn't be surprised if he refuses to do that.
Honestly, if it were me, I would have left yesterday. This is so beyond the pale, and it shows such a distorted sense of reality that I would not want to subject myself to it, and I really, really would not want to have my child grow up in that atmosphere.
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:54 AM on September 14, 2014 [6 favorites]
First of all, there is something very, very wrong when one partner refuses to get life insurance because they're afraid their partner might kill them to collect on the policy. In absence of some serious evidence to support this idea, this goes beyond typical "irrational" fears.
Here's the thing that makes this even more bizarre: If he actually legitimately believes you are the type of person who would kill him for money, why is he still with you? That inconsistency makes it seem all the more likely that there is some underlying mental illness contributing to his belief.
Now, the final layer: The fact that he would say this in front of guests and your daughter. That is something that people just don't do. In particular, it is so beyond inappropriate, and honestly really traumatic, to subject your daughter to that.
Frankly, it's concerning to me that you even have to question whether or not this is normal. I'm not saying this to shame or blame you. I'm actually just wondering if there's a larger pattern of this kind of behavior that you've become normalized to, which is why you have to get an external reality check.
Absolutely get counseling for yourself and for your daughter. Ideally your husband would go to couples counseling and individual counseling as well, but I wouldn't be surprised if he refuses to do that.
Honestly, if it were me, I would have left yesterday. This is so beyond the pale, and it shows such a distorted sense of reality that I would not want to subject myself to it, and I really, really would not want to have my child grow up in that atmosphere.
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:54 AM on September 14, 2014 [6 favorites]
Yes, this is not about the insurance, he (and your relationship) sound really disfunctional.
On the other hand, what would he say about getting life insurance where your daughter is the one that gets the money, not you?
posted by CrazyLemonade at 9:12 AM on September 14, 2014
On the other hand, what would he say about getting life insurance where your daughter is the one that gets the money, not you?
posted by CrazyLemonade at 9:12 AM on September 14, 2014
"You need objective, in-person help. If you have to ask this question, a fair chance there are other behaviors you've grown something to seeing as typical. "
This this this. You have decribed an astounding communication that make no sense as though the approriate response is "hmmm, something is off..."
You need in-person help. As soon as possible.
What he said was as normal as saying "Why don't more restaurants serve boiled hair?"
FWIW, many people are entirely capable of imagining or fearing that others will do things that they themselves would never do. Cite: I am afraid of being raped. I have never thought about being a rapist.
Make an appointment with a disinterested third party - therapist, pastor, women's services group at the United Way - as soon as you can.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 9:13 AM on September 14, 2014 [8 favorites]
This this this. You have decribed an astounding communication that make no sense as though the approriate response is "hmmm, something is off..."
You need in-person help. As soon as possible.
What he said was as normal as saying "Why don't more restaurants serve boiled hair?"
FWIW, many people are entirely capable of imagining or fearing that others will do things that they themselves would never do. Cite: I am afraid of being raped. I have never thought about being a rapist.
Make an appointment with a disinterested third party - therapist, pastor, women's services group at the United Way - as soon as you can.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 9:13 AM on September 14, 2014 [8 favorites]
I babysat for some children while I was in high school. Their mother, after unsuccessfully trying to poison their dad, had her (on-the-side, low-IQ) boyfriend shoot him in the head. Why? Primarily because she was psycho, but secondarily, because he had a large life insurance policy. She was caught (quite quickly) and is serving a very long sentence. [obviously, she ended up not getting the life insurance money and it went into a trust for the children]
Even given that I have personal experience with exactly the issue your husband is concerned about, I have never EVER considered that my husband would kill me for financial gain, or any reason whatsoever (nor has the reverse crossed my mind).
Protect yourself and your daughter and get your husband some help. This is not normal.
posted by melissasaurus at 9:14 AM on September 14, 2014 [6 favorites]
Even given that I have personal experience with exactly the issue your husband is concerned about, I have never EVER considered that my husband would kill me for financial gain, or any reason whatsoever (nor has the reverse crossed my mind).
Protect yourself and your daughter and get your husband some help. This is not normal.
posted by melissasaurus at 9:14 AM on September 14, 2014 [6 favorites]
Wow, this is such a can of worms.
In general, your husband's behavior towards you reads to me paranoia coupled with narcissism, ie an inflated sense of his own self-worth. Because this circumstance is SO extreme I would argue that we're looking at the question of whether he has Narcissistic Personality Disorder—specifically NPD overlapping with Fanatic Paranoia (a subset of fanatic paranoid narcissists are relatively passive but suspicious of others, which sounds like your husband as you've described him.) If he does in fact have NPD, then you need to look very seriously at treatment for him, and a contingency plan for you and your daughter.
You should also in all seriousness consider that if *you* get a life insurance plan, then YOUR life may be in danger.
WHY HE MIGHT HAVE NPD:
Your husband's behavior at the dinner party strongly indicates a lack of empathy, in that he was unable or unwilling to consider your feelings on being called out and accused of homicidal tendencies at a gathering of your friends. Lack of empathy is a huge indicator of NPD.
Your husband's behavior towards your daughter is also throwing up all kinds of red flags. First, it didn't sound like he was joking when he said, "And that's why you should never sucker-punch me." Yes, he should be teaching his daughter that she needs to be safe and respectful and non-violent of other people, but in the context of the whole conversation it sounds less like a teaching moment and more like he's guilt-tripping her about her style of play because her dad could DIE. This indicates callousness, which is another strong indicator of NPD. The fact that he made the moment "don't sucker-punch ME" instead of "don't sucker-punch ANYONE" is also a red flag especially when coupled with his comments a moment later.
In normal circumstances one might consider he's suffering from low self-esteem and feels you only stay with him because of his role as a breadwinner, but you've indicated that he felt this way since the beginning of your marriage, which says that it has little to do with your relationship and more to do with his view of himself and his dynamic with other people. SO:
In order to test whether his feelings are motivated by narcissism, I suggest that you ask him the following question, and listen VERY carefully to his answer:
THE QUESTION:
"Does that mean that if *I* got life insurance, you would immediately start plotting ways to kill *me*?"
This is a very important question and I'd like to suggest that his answer leaves you with 2 very different ways of viewing the situation:
SCENARIO #1: HEALTHY ANSWER
A healthy response to this question should be some version of horrified. "No! I would never even think of doing that to you!" This response would indicate that your husband is capable of compassion. The follow-up question should now be, "Then can you relate to my feelings when you assumed that about me?" If he responds positively, then this would indicate that he is also capable of empathy—that he can now relate the feelings he experienced on being asked that question to your experience.
If you ask him this question and this is the kind of response he gives you, then take heart--things probably aren't as bad as they seem, and you should make plans to begin marriage counseling. Your husband also needs to begin personal therapy.
The bottom line in this scenario is that currently your daughter is not safe because the family has no life insurance, and your husband needs to understand that and work on rectifying the situation.
SCENARIO #2: DISMISSIVE ANSWER.
However, if his answer to the 'what if the tables were turned' question is something dismissive, then this is a HUGE red flag that he is actually acting out of narcissism, and quite possibly even Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
He might insist, for example, that the case wouldn't be the same because your life insurance policy probably wouldn't be as valuable or worth as much money as his. This is a major indicator of serious narcissism.
He also might try to argue that he would be more ethical than he believes you to be, that he would be able to rise above the baseness of plotting to kill you for your money. This is also a sign of serious narcissism, because it indicates that he feels himself superior to the people around him, and shows that he operates by a different moral code.
The bottom line in this scenario is that you need to SERIOUSLY consider whether your husband's other behavioral characteristics indicate that he has NPD, and if that's the case then you both need to see a specialist trained in dealing with NPD immediately.
IF YOU HAVE ALREADY ASKED HIM THIS QUESTION:
If you have asked him this question already in your attempts to talk to him, and if he was dismissive, and if he *then* went on to have that conversation with your daughter and talk openly about your plotting to kill him in front of her, then my gut reaction would be: get out of this relationship immediately. If your husband is exhibiting both a lack of empathy and NPD, then you and your daughter are not safe. If you attempt to get life insurance in order to protect her, then you have no guarantee that your own life would not be in danger. NPD is not something to take lightly.
(It's also valid to choose not to ask him The Question because you don't want to give him any ideas. In that case, you already have your answer and you should get out of this relationship immediately.)
posted by bookshop at 9:17 AM on September 14, 2014 [16 favorites]
In general, your husband's behavior towards you reads to me paranoia coupled with narcissism, ie an inflated sense of his own self-worth. Because this circumstance is SO extreme I would argue that we're looking at the question of whether he has Narcissistic Personality Disorder—specifically NPD overlapping with Fanatic Paranoia (a subset of fanatic paranoid narcissists are relatively passive but suspicious of others, which sounds like your husband as you've described him.) If he does in fact have NPD, then you need to look very seriously at treatment for him, and a contingency plan for you and your daughter.
You should also in all seriousness consider that if *you* get a life insurance plan, then YOUR life may be in danger.
WHY HE MIGHT HAVE NPD:
Your husband's behavior at the dinner party strongly indicates a lack of empathy, in that he was unable or unwilling to consider your feelings on being called out and accused of homicidal tendencies at a gathering of your friends. Lack of empathy is a huge indicator of NPD.
Your husband's behavior towards your daughter is also throwing up all kinds of red flags. First, it didn't sound like he was joking when he said, "And that's why you should never sucker-punch me." Yes, he should be teaching his daughter that she needs to be safe and respectful and non-violent of other people, but in the context of the whole conversation it sounds less like a teaching moment and more like he's guilt-tripping her about her style of play because her dad could DIE. This indicates callousness, which is another strong indicator of NPD. The fact that he made the moment "don't sucker-punch ME" instead of "don't sucker-punch ANYONE" is also a red flag especially when coupled with his comments a moment later.
In normal circumstances one might consider he's suffering from low self-esteem and feels you only stay with him because of his role as a breadwinner, but you've indicated that he felt this way since the beginning of your marriage, which says that it has little to do with your relationship and more to do with his view of himself and his dynamic with other people. SO:
In order to test whether his feelings are motivated by narcissism, I suggest that you ask him the following question, and listen VERY carefully to his answer:
THE QUESTION:
"Does that mean that if *I* got life insurance, you would immediately start plotting ways to kill *me*?"
This is a very important question and I'd like to suggest that his answer leaves you with 2 very different ways of viewing the situation:
SCENARIO #1: HEALTHY ANSWER
A healthy response to this question should be some version of horrified. "No! I would never even think of doing that to you!" This response would indicate that your husband is capable of compassion. The follow-up question should now be, "Then can you relate to my feelings when you assumed that about me?" If he responds positively, then this would indicate that he is also capable of empathy—that he can now relate the feelings he experienced on being asked that question to your experience.
If you ask him this question and this is the kind of response he gives you, then take heart--things probably aren't as bad as they seem, and you should make plans to begin marriage counseling. Your husband also needs to begin personal therapy.
The bottom line in this scenario is that currently your daughter is not safe because the family has no life insurance, and your husband needs to understand that and work on rectifying the situation.
SCENARIO #2: DISMISSIVE ANSWER.
However, if his answer to the 'what if the tables were turned' question is something dismissive, then this is a HUGE red flag that he is actually acting out of narcissism, and quite possibly even Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
He might insist, for example, that the case wouldn't be the same because your life insurance policy probably wouldn't be as valuable or worth as much money as his. This is a major indicator of serious narcissism.
He also might try to argue that he would be more ethical than he believes you to be, that he would be able to rise above the baseness of plotting to kill you for your money. This is also a sign of serious narcissism, because it indicates that he feels himself superior to the people around him, and shows that he operates by a different moral code.
The bottom line in this scenario is that you need to SERIOUSLY consider whether your husband's other behavioral characteristics indicate that he has NPD, and if that's the case then you both need to see a specialist trained in dealing with NPD immediately.
IF YOU HAVE ALREADY ASKED HIM THIS QUESTION:
If you have asked him this question already in your attempts to talk to him, and if he was dismissive, and if he *then* went on to have that conversation with your daughter and talk openly about your plotting to kill him in front of her, then my gut reaction would be: get out of this relationship immediately. If your husband is exhibiting both a lack of empathy and NPD, then you and your daughter are not safe. If you attempt to get life insurance in order to protect her, then you have no guarantee that your own life would not be in danger. NPD is not something to take lightly.
(It's also valid to choose not to ask him The Question because you don't want to give him any ideas. In that case, you already have your answer and you should get out of this relationship immediately.)
posted by bookshop at 9:17 AM on September 14, 2014 [16 favorites]
I appreciate that the behavior under discussion is very bad, but we are in fact talking about two brief instances of (admittedly, extremely rude and inappropriate) verbal statements. Clinical diagnosis over the Internet is an overreaction.
posted by Mr. Justice at 9:29 AM on September 14, 2014 [12 favorites]
posted by Mr. Justice at 9:29 AM on September 14, 2014 [12 favorites]
This has all been covered well by prior answers, but since there were many questions:
Are these concerns typical?
- Not at all.
Does it seem like excessive paranoia on my husband's part?
- Highly excessive.
How can I apologize to my husband for the bad joke I made today, but make clear to him that it WAS a bad joke - not that I want him dead to get life insurance money?
- I wouldn't apologize for anything at all in this situation.
Am I wrong to be heartsick and deeply hurt that the man I married views me in such a horrible light?
- No, this is a perfectly rational response to a horrifying thing your husband has said to you. I'm heartsick just reading it, and all I know is that you're an anonymous member of MeFi.
Am I wrong to be upset that he should talk like this about me with our daughter. How should I try to engage him on this?
- You're not wrong, and the only advice I have for engaging him on this situation is to please stay safe.
Should I just drop it?
- NO. NO NO NO NO.
And am I wrong to be concerned that we don't have life insurance?
- NO NO NO. In fact, you should go online and get a policy on yourself ASAP.
posted by ndfine at 9:46 AM on September 14, 2014 [7 favorites]
Are these concerns typical?
- Not at all.
Does it seem like excessive paranoia on my husband's part?
- Highly excessive.
How can I apologize to my husband for the bad joke I made today, but make clear to him that it WAS a bad joke - not that I want him dead to get life insurance money?
- I wouldn't apologize for anything at all in this situation.
Am I wrong to be heartsick and deeply hurt that the man I married views me in such a horrible light?
- No, this is a perfectly rational response to a horrifying thing your husband has said to you. I'm heartsick just reading it, and all I know is that you're an anonymous member of MeFi.
Am I wrong to be upset that he should talk like this about me with our daughter. How should I try to engage him on this?
- You're not wrong, and the only advice I have for engaging him on this situation is to please stay safe.
Should I just drop it?
- NO. NO NO NO NO.
And am I wrong to be concerned that we don't have life insurance?
- NO NO NO. In fact, you should go online and get a policy on yourself ASAP.
posted by ndfine at 9:46 AM on September 14, 2014 [7 favorites]
Okay, taking the life insurance thing out of the question entirely...
Your husband truly believes that you are capable of and willing to kill him. For money. He believes this so strongly that he will repeat this belief in front of other people, including your child.
This is not sane, rational, or healthy.
This is deeply, deeply irrational and dangerous to your relationship, dangerous to you (he believes you could kill him. Will he eventually become so paranoid that he harms you in perceived "self defense"?), and dangerous to your child's mental health.
posted by erst at 10:21 AM on September 14, 2014 [7 favorites]
Your husband truly believes that you are capable of and willing to kill him. For money. He believes this so strongly that he will repeat this belief in front of other people, including your child.
This is not sane, rational, or healthy.
This is deeply, deeply irrational and dangerous to your relationship, dangerous to you (he believes you could kill him. Will he eventually become so paranoid that he harms you in perceived "self defense"?), and dangerous to your child's mental health.
posted by erst at 10:21 AM on September 14, 2014 [7 favorites]
It may be worth looking at the information on the Power and Control Wheel and seeing if any of it fits. (The Equality Wheel counterpart can also be helpful for evaluating a relationship.)
You mention (which I think some people have missed) that he has held this belief about you for years, that your relationship is strained, and that he "would not support your getting a policy either because it was an unnecessary household expense," which, depending on how it was phrased and presented of course, sounds at least a bit controlling. His saying hurtful things about you in front of your daughter also sounds potentially manipulative, or at the very least extremely self-centered.
Something is really, really off here -- "off" to the point where it's likely he has major undiagnosed psychiatric or medical problems or that you are in an abusive relationship. If any of the Power and Control Wheel fits, I think your meeting individually with a therapist experienced in working with domestic violence to talk some of this out would be a good next step.
posted by jaguar at 10:23 AM on September 14, 2014 [16 favorites]
You mention (which I think some people have missed) that he has held this belief about you for years, that your relationship is strained, and that he "would not support your getting a policy either because it was an unnecessary household expense," which, depending on how it was phrased and presented of course, sounds at least a bit controlling. His saying hurtful things about you in front of your daughter also sounds potentially manipulative, or at the very least extremely self-centered.
Something is really, really off here -- "off" to the point where it's likely he has major undiagnosed psychiatric or medical problems or that you are in an abusive relationship. If any of the Power and Control Wheel fits, I think your meeting individually with a therapist experienced in working with domestic violence to talk some of this out would be a good next step.
posted by jaguar at 10:23 AM on September 14, 2014 [16 favorites]
Explain the insurance is for your daughter and get him to use a trust which will administer the benefit for her. If you need the money too, perhaps he'd be open to the trust allowing you a certain amount that's less than you currently get from him.
posted by michaelh at 10:56 AM on September 14, 2014
posted by michaelh at 10:56 AM on September 14, 2014
Don't sleep under the same roof as an enemy.
Especially if that enemy is someone you are intimate with. Like family or a spouse.
Sometimes having a dysfunctional childhood "normalizes" living with this (mostly) silent threat underneath the facade, but it is no way to be safe or happy. It's not OK. Everyone deserves to feel safe and be safe.
(I realize your husband is accusing you of awful things, but I can only see his bizarre accusation as an indication that you and your daughter are at risk. He's stating that the underlying dynamic of your family is "kill or be killed." And now he's informed your 10 year old daughter of this fact.
That type of statement can help win you full custody in family court, BTW.
I don't know what else is going on in your home, and if proactive measures to keep you and your daughter safe need to be taken in lieu of something less radical, like psychiatric intervention and counseling support.... But having had my life threatened when I was younger by a family member.... My thoughts today are solidly in the camp of "Why Wait to Be Safe? Seek Safety, Today!!")
posted by jbenben at 11:05 AM on September 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
Especially if that enemy is someone you are intimate with. Like family or a spouse.
Sometimes having a dysfunctional childhood "normalizes" living with this (mostly) silent threat underneath the facade, but it is no way to be safe or happy. It's not OK. Everyone deserves to feel safe and be safe.
(I realize your husband is accusing you of awful things, but I can only see his bizarre accusation as an indication that you and your daughter are at risk. He's stating that the underlying dynamic of your family is "kill or be killed." And now he's informed your 10 year old daughter of this fact.
That type of statement can help win you full custody in family court, BTW.
I don't know what else is going on in your home, and if proactive measures to keep you and your daughter safe need to be taken in lieu of something less radical, like psychiatric intervention and counseling support.... But having had my life threatened when I was younger by a family member.... My thoughts today are solidly in the camp of "Why Wait to Be Safe? Seek Safety, Today!!")
posted by jbenben at 11:05 AM on September 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
Ever hear the thought that people accuse of what they're doing / thinking of doing themselves?
You - and your child - need OUT of this relationship... and I'd ensure that when you purchase life insurance for yourself and your child, you do so in such a way that there is NO WAY POSSIBLE he can benefit.
posted by stormyteal at 11:50 AM on September 14, 2014
You - and your child - need OUT of this relationship... and I'd ensure that when you purchase life insurance for yourself and your child, you do so in such a way that there is NO WAY POSSIBLE he can benefit.
posted by stormyteal at 11:50 AM on September 14, 2014
There is no walking this back. I think your relationship is irretrievably broken. If this were fiction, I'd say he's setting up a basis for claiming self-defense for killing his wife. I knew a man who said such things to his wife. He not only refused to have life insurance, he deliberately removed all assets from her reach. Eventually he committed suicide, leaving her homeless and penniless...with several children. I think he must have hated not only her but also himself as he was revealed to be a serial, daily philanderer. I'm not saying your husband is anything like that but your husband is not trustworthy.
posted by Anitanola at 12:05 PM on September 14, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by Anitanola at 12:05 PM on September 14, 2014 [3 favorites]
How old is your daughter? Unless she's an adult, someone professional needs to debrief with her because she just witnessed her father accuse her mother of being willing to murder him for money. Given her response as you describe it, she knew he was not joking.
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 12:31 PM on September 14, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 12:31 PM on September 14, 2014 [6 favorites]
I feel like both parties here made comments that were totally not okay to say to a child. The father's comment was not acceptable to say in front of her. And prior to it, that was an awfully mean "joke." What was the funny part? Telling your ten year old daughter that the only reason she wouldn't want her father to die was life insurance money? I hate to be the only one to ask, but I had to ask. Because if I'm the daughter, the first thing I heard was my mother dragging me into this conflict by attributing to me the idea that I only cared about money, not my father?
posted by citron at 12:41 PM on September 14, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by citron at 12:41 PM on September 14, 2014 [7 favorites]
Citron - who knows? Maybe the OP is humor-impared and in both cases she's the only one who wasn't in on the wink-wink vibe. Maybe the OP is in a bad relationship and has learned to jump in with "explanations" when her husband says something that causes akwardness. Surely you've known people who have learned to jump in and a say "ha ha, person said THING because reasons ha ha ha nothing to see here..."
posted by Lesser Shrew at 1:03 PM on September 14, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by Lesser Shrew at 1:03 PM on September 14, 2014 [3 favorites]
Anon, I think you buried the lede here:
My husband and I do have a very strained relationship, but I have never for a second wished any ill on this man.
So the relationship is "strained"? I'll say. Time to start making plans to head for the exits.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 1:30 PM on September 14, 2014 [4 favorites]
My husband and I do have a very strained relationship, but I have never for a second wished any ill on this man.
So the relationship is "strained"? I'll say. Time to start making plans to head for the exits.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 1:30 PM on September 14, 2014 [4 favorites]
Setting aside the relationshippy aspects of this question, which others have dealt with effectively and which I'm in no way intending to belittle: my husband and I have life insurance that is adequate to pay off the house in event of the other's death. No one will become wealthy overnight, but it's enough that the survivor could continue to live without a substantial change in lifestyle. If leaving the marriage is not in the cards for you, that may be something your husband would consider.
We do not have children, however, so that obviously changes the calculus.
posted by mchorn at 3:16 PM on September 14, 2014
We do not have children, however, so that obviously changes the calculus.
posted by mchorn at 3:16 PM on September 14, 2014
Clearly he believes the only reason you're still married to him is money. It's not too far of a stretch after that to believe that if you somehow came into some money, you'd leave.
It's a pretty long leap from there to knocking him off for the money, which is a big problem. But if the first parts are true, maybe that's the angle to get the conversation started. Maybe you could try not encouraging his fears of being worthless for anything other than cash, if you are. Is there anything you like about him that no money could replace? Does he know that?
Not to blame you. He needs professional help.
posted by ctmf at 3:18 PM on September 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
It's a pretty long leap from there to knocking him off for the money, which is a big problem. But if the first parts are true, maybe that's the angle to get the conversation started. Maybe you could try not encouraging his fears of being worthless for anything other than cash, if you are. Is there anything you like about him that no money could replace? Does he know that?
Not to blame you. He needs professional help.
posted by ctmf at 3:18 PM on September 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'm from a family where my father actually attempted to murder my mom.
He used threats of death (his, hers, my brothers and my own) to control us. Death was a tool in the toolbox of manipulation. He didn't want to go to jail and that's probably the only reason my entire family is alive.
The fact he is brazenly willing to state things like this in public settings means at the very least he had serious trouble with social cues and how they effect relationships. If he believes this he also doesn't care for his own life much and lives in perpetual fear. For his sake you need to get away from him so he can figure that shit out. He had difficulty with long term financial planning which isn't good as your child gets older and you near retirement age. At worst he is abusive and vile.
Only you can figure this or and set boundaries. Be careful and good luck.
posted by AlexiaSky at 3:48 PM on September 14, 2014 [6 favorites]
He used threats of death (his, hers, my brothers and my own) to control us. Death was a tool in the toolbox of manipulation. He didn't want to go to jail and that's probably the only reason my entire family is alive.
The fact he is brazenly willing to state things like this in public settings means at the very least he had serious trouble with social cues and how they effect relationships. If he believes this he also doesn't care for his own life much and lives in perpetual fear. For his sake you need to get away from him so he can figure that shit out. He had difficulty with long term financial planning which isn't good as your child gets older and you near retirement age. At worst he is abusive and vile.
Only you can figure this or and set boundaries. Be careful and good luck.
posted by AlexiaSky at 3:48 PM on September 14, 2014 [6 favorites]
Look, I have had thoughts like his appear in my head. And I am a loving and generally reality-based wife, who grew up in a really dysfunctional family with abuse going on.
I never said those thoughts out loud. I certainly didn't defend them. And I sought therapy and did it for 5 years, plus tune-ups. Because even having grown up in situations where there were very serious death threats, when I found myself hearing thoughts like that, I knew that was crazy. This is not the same as hating flying, it's a world view that speaks to a very serious level of not just distrust, but stupidity. If he seriously believes that why would he stay with you...and have you caring for your mutual child?
Nthing that this is pretty serious stuff & you need a professional involved. Be strong.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:42 PM on September 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
I never said those thoughts out loud. I certainly didn't defend them. And I sought therapy and did it for 5 years, plus tune-ups. Because even having grown up in situations where there were very serious death threats, when I found myself hearing thoughts like that, I knew that was crazy. This is not the same as hating flying, it's a world view that speaks to a very serious level of not just distrust, but stupidity. If he seriously believes that why would he stay with you...and have you caring for your mutual child?
Nthing that this is pretty serious stuff & you need a professional involved. Be strong.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:42 PM on September 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
Your husband is crazy and insulting. At the very least, you need marriage counseling. And if that doesn't resolve his issues, perhaps a divorce.
posted by Jacqueline at 7:25 PM on September 14, 2014
posted by Jacqueline at 7:25 PM on September 14, 2014
Red flags:
1. Your husband lacks the awareness that his fear of homicide at your hands is unrealistic.
2. He lacks the common sense and social skills that would prevent voicing such thoughts in front of friends and family and your daughter.
3. His first iteration of this bizarre idea was several years ago and he's still thinking the same way.
4. By including your ten-year-old daughter in his fantasy, he's showing a total unawareness of her age and her vulnerability and his responsibility as her parent.
5. Your uncertainty about whether his behavior is just a little peculiar or seriously deranged is an indicator that you're not thinking clearly either.
Recommendations:
1. Get yourself and your daughter away from him and into a safe situation as soon as you possibly can.
2. In the meantime, don't engage him on this subject, don't mention your shock that he'd say such a thing in front of your daughter, don't bring it up again; you've already done that and his response is refusal to discuss it. Don't do anything to push his buttons.
3. You can ask him if he thinks marriage counseling would be helpful to the two of you in general, but when he rejects the idea, let it drop.
4. This sounds silly, but it's not: Don't do anything that he might construe as a threat; don't play with water guns or whisper in a back room with a friend about someone's birthday party - just don't do anything that a paranoid person could possibly consider dangerous to himself.
5. For Heaven's sake, don't bring up life insurance right now.
6. Think - hard - about how you might be able to access some funds quickly - just a few hundred dollars will help - to help you relocate. But listen up: If you are able to access a checking or savings account yourself, take a good chunk of money out because you'll only be able to do it once when you leave; the money belongs as much to you and your daughter as it does to your husband, so use it to get you and your little girl to safety.
All this seems overreactive, but there's nothing new about paranoia triggering violent episodes, based on completely delusional fantasies. I'm concerned that you've become so used to this type of life that you can't even recognize the seriousness yourself. If you don't want to speculate that he might do something bizarre like kill you before you kill him, then at least realize that what he did right now - making such a statement to your daughter - is reason enough to get away until he gets help.
I wish you the best. If by chance you're in Spokane, WA, memail me and I can help.
posted by aryma at 11:38 PM on September 14, 2014 [10 favorites]
1. Your husband lacks the awareness that his fear of homicide at your hands is unrealistic.
2. He lacks the common sense and social skills that would prevent voicing such thoughts in front of friends and family and your daughter.
3. His first iteration of this bizarre idea was several years ago and he's still thinking the same way.
4. By including your ten-year-old daughter in his fantasy, he's showing a total unawareness of her age and her vulnerability and his responsibility as her parent.
5. Your uncertainty about whether his behavior is just a little peculiar or seriously deranged is an indicator that you're not thinking clearly either.
Recommendations:
1. Get yourself and your daughter away from him and into a safe situation as soon as you possibly can.
2. In the meantime, don't engage him on this subject, don't mention your shock that he'd say such a thing in front of your daughter, don't bring it up again; you've already done that and his response is refusal to discuss it. Don't do anything to push his buttons.
3. You can ask him if he thinks marriage counseling would be helpful to the two of you in general, but when he rejects the idea, let it drop.
4. This sounds silly, but it's not: Don't do anything that he might construe as a threat; don't play with water guns or whisper in a back room with a friend about someone's birthday party - just don't do anything that a paranoid person could possibly consider dangerous to himself.
5. For Heaven's sake, don't bring up life insurance right now.
6. Think - hard - about how you might be able to access some funds quickly - just a few hundred dollars will help - to help you relocate. But listen up: If you are able to access a checking or savings account yourself, take a good chunk of money out because you'll only be able to do it once when you leave; the money belongs as much to you and your daughter as it does to your husband, so use it to get you and your little girl to safety.
All this seems overreactive, but there's nothing new about paranoia triggering violent episodes, based on completely delusional fantasies. I'm concerned that you've become so used to this type of life that you can't even recognize the seriousness yourself. If you don't want to speculate that he might do something bizarre like kill you before you kill him, then at least realize that what he did right now - making such a statement to your daughter - is reason enough to get away until he gets help.
I wish you the best. If by chance you're in Spokane, WA, memail me and I can help.
posted by aryma at 11:38 PM on September 14, 2014 [10 favorites]
My interpretation is that he is unhappy and incredibly resentful of being in a family, being married and maybe even his career and life in general. And it's possible his remarks are meant to simply be hurtful and communicate this resentment to you because it is shocking to say/hear, and in absence of taking actions in his life, he is focusing all his negative frustration and resentment on you.
I also think paranoia could indicate bitterness. Like, in the absence of what's good in the world (which it doesn't seem like he's feeling), like how he's assuming that in the absence of love there's nothing preventing anyone from doing anything (no matter how bad) for their own gain. Which incidentally is what he is accusing you of in everything, that you are merely looking to benefit from whatever situation he is put in. (This, as @bookshop points out is hallmark behaviour for NPD.)
But that's more about the marriage, which is as you describe, strained. The part that concerns me is how you seem to be locked into placating and appeasing this man who is supposed to be your equal even if he is not your loving partner. He gets the occasional outburst in which he can say whatever he wants. Meanwhile you can't just flat out tell him he's wrong, and expect to be believed.. why? Do you fear his anger? Does his behavior become intolerable when he is confronted with anything he doesn't like? Does he hold power over you in the form of being the primary/sole provider or withhold things from you or your daughter as a form of control? Because if any of these are true (and I hope they aren't but the warning bells are going off in my head) then you won't be able to have this much needed conversation with him. You won't be able to go to group therapy or marriage counseling either because none of these things can work without the full cooperation of both people.
These are abusive behaviors. And I hesitate to use the word abuser, since it often conjures a specific kind of extreme situation in any mention of the word. But at the same time I think it's important to say for some perspective on how bad things could get. (And I don't know, maybe his relationship and behavior towards you aren't often like this, I certainly hope). But while this abuse dynamic exists there won't be any real kind of discussion, and that must be addressed first.
posted by everyday_naturalist at 3:59 AM on September 15, 2014 [10 favorites]
I also think paranoia could indicate bitterness. Like, in the absence of what's good in the world (which it doesn't seem like he's feeling), like how he's assuming that in the absence of love there's nothing preventing anyone from doing anything (no matter how bad) for their own gain. Which incidentally is what he is accusing you of in everything, that you are merely looking to benefit from whatever situation he is put in. (This, as @bookshop points out is hallmark behaviour for NPD.)
But that's more about the marriage, which is as you describe, strained. The part that concerns me is how you seem to be locked into placating and appeasing this man who is supposed to be your equal even if he is not your loving partner. He gets the occasional outburst in which he can say whatever he wants. Meanwhile you can't just flat out tell him he's wrong, and expect to be believed.. why? Do you fear his anger? Does his behavior become intolerable when he is confronted with anything he doesn't like? Does he hold power over you in the form of being the primary/sole provider or withhold things from you or your daughter as a form of control? Because if any of these are true (and I hope they aren't but the warning bells are going off in my head) then you won't be able to have this much needed conversation with him. You won't be able to go to group therapy or marriage counseling either because none of these things can work without the full cooperation of both people.
These are abusive behaviors. And I hesitate to use the word abuser, since it often conjures a specific kind of extreme situation in any mention of the word. But at the same time I think it's important to say for some perspective on how bad things could get. (And I don't know, maybe his relationship and behavior towards you aren't often like this, I certainly hope). But while this abuse dynamic exists there won't be any real kind of discussion, and that must be addressed first.
posted by everyday_naturalist at 3:59 AM on September 15, 2014 [10 favorites]
I don't know if you're still reading this thread, but I just wanted to return to ask: are you okay?
posted by bookshop at 1:45 PM on November 4, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by bookshop at 1:45 PM on November 4, 2014 [7 favorites]
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Your husband sounds mentally ill. Broach the subject of couples counseling so that you can discuss these topics with a neutral third party.
But seriously, start making plans for separation and divorce because no rational person would stay partnered with an irrational man.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:23 AM on September 14, 2014 [53 favorites]