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Neighbors, drunk driving, and car damage - what to do?
July 9, 2014 5:19 PM   Subscribe

How to get our unemployed and non-insured neighbors to pay for car damage? Our downstairs neighbors (we split a house) are borrowing an (uninsured) car from their friend over the summer. After getting super drunk early Mon, they somehow barrelled out of the garage, hitting our car and (we think) another car parked in the street. They didn't confess to hitting our car until we approached them with evidence and long after I had already filed a hit-and-run report....

Some background/ issues at play/ wall of text:

-We are on pretty good terms with our neighbors as we share a house and yard. The leases are separate. All of us are (I think) on good terms with the landlord.
-That being said, the neighbors both recently quit their jobs and have been spending the summer partying and are (admittedly) starting to annoy us with their very loud weeknight drinking sessions.
-They are low on savings, are a month late on shared bills, and have been selling their possessions to make up for the negative cash flow.
-The driver does not have a driver's license. We know they were drunk but obviously can't prove it (and they deny being drunk at the time of accident)
-They admitted to hitting out car (only after we confronted them with photographic evidence). They vehemently deny hitting the other car although it was parked in the direct path of their movement. We know who the other driver is (and he has already filed a claim) but have not yet told him of the neighbor's confession.
-Not sure if their friend's car is insured (very doubtful), but he is out of the country and we don't know how to reach him.
-No way these kids can afford to pay us ($2K) out of pocket to fix damage, although they did offer to pay (they don't know estimate yet).

I would like to not get our insurance company involved since we had another hit-and-run on our street less than 6 months ago (our rates have subsequently increased). Not sure if there are any better options. We also filed a police report before neighbors confessed, so I'm not sure what happens if we tell our insurance that we know the car/ driver responsible. I have photographic evidence of our car's paint on the uninsured car but no such evidence for the other car that was hit, except trajectory and car location at time of accident.

Do we file a claim or do we try to get the neighbors to pay? Which way will there be less burn?

Do we tell the owner of the other car that was hit? (I know the answer is yes, but there is no evidence except plain logic that hit his car was hit in the same accident. Not sure if telling him will lead police action for the neighbors leaving scene).

I should also say that I really like where I live and whatever happens I would prefer neighbor relations to not sour (my rent will likely double if I have to move elsewhere in the neighborhood). I also am way more upset about drunk driving in the neighborhood than damage to our car and don't want that message to be muddled if we try to pursue financial recourse. In some ways, I feel like a parent for these recent grads. We are having a chat with them about next steps tonight.
posted by ch3ch2oh to Human Relations (34 answers total) 3 users marked this as a favorite
 
May I ask, how much did your rates go up after that other hit-and-run? Any idea of how much your rate would go up with this second incident if you do report it to insurance? Do you have a deductible to meet before the insurance would kick in?

These dollar-figures will help us figure out what your true out-of-pocket will be if you go with insurance.
posted by nacho fries at 5:33 PM on July 9 [1 favorite]


Here's what you do. Call the cops, amend your report, take pictures of the car. You can't say anything about drunk driving, but facts is facts.

Call your insurance and report it to them. Give them all the info on the offending car, now it's their problem. They'll sue the other guy, they'll deal will the hoo-ha of tracking him down.

You say you share a house with your neighbors. Are they roommates? Is it a duplex? That's just confusing.

Also, they may be in arrears with the landlord, so you may want to discuss your concerns with him/her. "Hey Leslie, I thought you'd like to know, the kids next door are being a royal pain. They drunk-drove their car into parked cars, they're partying every night until all hours. Can you talk to them."

Also, every city has a noise ordinance. If they're noisy, call the cops. You'd be surprised, cops don't really mind keeping the peace.

By all means, have an intervention with them. Sit down and say, "Your behavior affects me in the following way, you have damaged my car and it will cost $2k to fix, your noisy parties keep me awake, and frankly the fact that you are unlicensed and driving an uninsured car drunk makes me fear for my safety and for the safety of anyone on the road with you. This irresponsible behavior has to stop. If it doesn't I will notify the landlord of the fact that you owe me money, and every time you are loud after 10:00 PM on a weeknight, I'll call the police to come out. We all have to live together and I'm entitled to the quiet enjoyment of my home."
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:36 PM on July 9 [12 favorites]


How do you plan to get the neighbors to pay if they have no money, are in debt to the landlord and are selling their possessions? You are probably last on their list of financial priorities. You can sue them in small claims court but if they literally don't have anything to give you, what is that going to accomplish besides wasting your time and effort?

Financially, it seems like your best option is to file a claim and take the rate hike, presuming the increased rate is cheaper than finding another place to live. But - I don't understand why you want to live above noisy drunks who will probably do the same thing again. Then what? You say you want to maintain good relations with them, but they're driving drunk, ergo they are dangerous assholes who should not be cut any slack. They are not going to stop because you asked them nicely, they will just lie like they did last time.
posted by desjardins at 5:45 PM on July 9 [10 favorites]


If they don't have the money, you can't make them pay you. This is what insurance is for.
posted by bq at 5:45 PM on July 9 [5 favorites]


Oooookay. I have recent hit-n-run experience with neighbor involvement. What I will propose is unorthodox...

I'm assuming your car is covered. What is the deductible? How much did your rates go up? Can you get a new insurance company after you resolve this issue?

- Your downstairs neighbors are alcoholics who are unemployed and late on their bills. At this rate, they will not be able to pay the rent there for very long. You will not get the full amount from them. ONLY POISON YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH YOUR NEIGHBORS BY BEING ADVERSARIAL IF YOU ARE PREPARED FOR RETALIATION.

Hint: you are not prepared for retaliation.

- You did not see them hit the other car. Confirm that guy is covered by his insurance if you can, but otherwise, stay out of it.

- You are completely foolish to think these downstairs folks are in any way decent, won't turn on you, and/or are safe to live above.

They're drunks. They are irresponsible. Use caution.

-----

Use your insurance to get your car fixed. Ask your neighbors to pay the deductible. Better yet! Give them a copy of the estimate, don't tell them your insurance is covering the damage, and then wait for them to pay up. Get your car fixed through the insurance.

Since they don't have the money, they won't be able to pay you. Their guilt at owing you money may make them go "underground" in attempts to avoid you. They'll likely be quieter. This is good!!

Wait for them to move out. It won't be long.

Please IMMEDIATELY call the police with their license plate # and make model in a hot second if you see them leave in the car drunk.

Repeating for Clarity:

Please IMMEDIATELY call the police with their license plate # and make model in a hot second if you see them leave in the car drunk.
posted by jbenben at 5:50 PM on July 9 [27 favorites]


To clarify:
Insurance rates went up only nominally ($10/ month), but I imagine they may go up again if it's the second claim in 6 months. $500 deductible.

The house is split-level (separate floors/ keys/entry) so like a duplex. All night drinking only started recently in the last two months (we've lived upstairs from them for two years and the noise is very recent...after they both quit jobs and have nothing better to do). Since we live in a higher crime, urban area (Oakland), cops have more important things to do than enforce noise ordinance....
posted by ch3ch2oh at 5:54 PM on July 9


If your insurance company threatens to raise your rates down the line - drop them and find new insurance.

I've been through two hit-n-runs (both time my car was totaled) in California. One time the driver was uninsured, the second time I ended up getting the driver convicted for the accident.

I am very intimately aware of how the insurance and laws work in CA regarding this.

If you bust your downstairs neighbors for this and report them, (a) they can deny they admitted to the accident because there were no witnesses, and (b) your insurance company will go after them in small claims or by dinging their credit IF an investigator can prove their car hit yours. Plus, there is the added bonus your insurance company will need to go after the owner of the car first, and no one can prove who was driving... and ... and ... and.

AND : YOUR NEIGHBORS CAN'T AFFORD TO FIX YOUR CAR.

Sure, provide them a copy of the bill and keep this debt (silently) hanging over their head to encourage them to behave well into the future.

Understand that notifying your insurance company about your neighbors won't do anyone much good (they need witnesses and or video to win in court) since there is no insurance company on your neighbor's end (insurance companies decide fault with a lower threshold of evidence, matching dents and paint transference might suffice, unless neighbors deny they hit you, then ohhhh boy...)

Where was I?

The insurance laws are pretty specific. This is only misdemeanor hit-n-run for the police since there were no injuries.

Use your uninsured motorist clause to cover this, hide that from your neighbors but do present them with an invoice & get your car fixed.

Wait for your neighbors to run out of cash and move out, because that is the next logical step in their story.

Steer clear of trouble while these folks self-destruct.



Incidentally, it sounds like they are doing drugs (meth?) so be very very careful. Normal people don't quit their jobs and sell possessions to fund their partying, but junkies do. If you smell chemically fumes - evacuate and call the police and the fire department. Similarly, make sure your smoke alarms are working.

Stay safe.
posted by jbenben at 6:12 PM on July 9 [15 favorites]


This is the reason you carry insurance. Amend your police report and call your insurance agent. Your insurance company has lots of lawyer type people who do this stuff and collect funds. It also puts the mess into the hands of third party who you've paid to handle these types of conversations for you.

Why do you have any shared bills with these people and why do you know anything of their finances? Is it separate or not? There is something off about people quitting jobs to stay home and drink.

I'd be less worried about the car and more worried about having my financial life tied to these folks.
posted by 26.2 at 6:38 PM on July 9 [1 favorite]


Extracting financial justice from these sketch-balls sounds like a no-win proposition. I'd turn it over to insurance.

I'm getting a whiff of a hard-drug downward spiral here, like jbenben suggested. The selling off of possessions raises an eyebrow, and raises a caution that you will want to make sure your place is locked down like Fort Knox.

If they are behind in rent, hopefully soon-ish the landlord will begin an eviction process, which takes a while, but at least perhaps might get these knuckleheads out from under you.
posted by nacho fries at 6:40 PM on July 9 [5 favorites]


OOPS. (now that my ranty answers are over)

Please clarify if this claim would go through uninsured motorist or against your regular coverage.

I'm pretty sure your company can not legally raise your rates in CA if this claim goes through uninsured motorist coverage.

My company would process an unknown hit and run through the uninsured motorist clause. Yours may not.

You might need to report the hit and run to the police and your insurance company in order to confirm their vehicle was not insured and you qualify in this circumstance for uninsured motorist coverage.

If this turns out to be the case, weigh this against all other risks.
posted by jbenben at 6:40 PM on July 9 [1 favorite]


I don't know if they are behind in rent to landlord. They are (only) a month behind in our shared utility bills (water/sewer, internet, gas/elect, combined ~$150/mo), but have historically been a few weeks late so no change in history there (they paid us just last week for May bills so I'm not worried...yet). There is apparently a 3rd roommate as of a couple weeks ago (so I've been told) whom I have never seen (!) but who supposedly is renting out their second room. I know tenant rights are really strong in CA (as opposed to where I used to live in TX), so not sure if getting landlord involved is of any use.
posted by ch3ch2oh at 6:57 PM on July 9 [1 favorite]


To piggyback on jbenben's answer about insurance rates:

Rates in CA are very, very consumer friendly, and I ... highly doubt that your rates went up for a hit-and-run. They probably went up for some other reason (there are lots of other reasons). And I doubt that they'll go up next renewal for a second hit-and-run. I can't verify this, but you can call the department of insurance and ask if that'll make you feel better.
posted by Ms Vegetable at 6:58 PM on July 9 [2 favorites]


They are (only) a month behind in our shared utility bills (water/sewer, internet, gas/elect, combined ~$150/mo), but have historically been a few weeks late so no change in history there

Wow, they were late on your shared utilities in the two years they were "good" neighbors? This does not sound like good neighbors to me. I would contact your landlord and let them know that you need to not be sharing bills with them and report the other messiness. Let your insurance and the cops handle the car repair, but I foresee significant additional difficulties with these people.

Also, shared bills - if you continue to share them I think there has to be a conversation about paying at the same time every month. Making you hold the bill for them (possibly permanently, if they move out leaving you with a few months shy of their obligation) is bad.
posted by arnicae at 7:13 PM on July 9 [5 favorites]


Wait, why is it on you to collect payment for shared utilities? Isn't that something the landlord should be handling? Who is billing you for the utilities -- the landlord, or the utility companies directly?

And what's up with them adding another roomie, thereby driving up overall utility rates? How do you divvy up their share vs. your share?

I'm starting to get a STRONG scent of sketch-ball landlord here as well.

Tenant protections ARE strong in CA, varying by jurisdiction, which means that you have protections and rights, including the quiet enjoyment of your apartment. You are holding up your end of the contract -- paying rent, and being considerate. Time for the landlord to hold up his part. I'd get on the horn to your local renters' rights organization and at least run the utilities thing by them.
posted by nacho fries at 7:29 PM on July 9 [3 favorites]


We know they were drunk but obviously can't prove it

How exactly do you "know" they were drunk? Were you drinking with them? I bring this up, not because your assumption is necessarily incorrect (you probably deduced/guessed correctly), but because it is an assumption. An utterly unverifiable assumption. And it seems to be a rather core assumption about this whole thing, resulting in a lot of unnecessary angst/moralizing.

What matters is that they hit your car and then tried to avoid dealing with that. Their chemical state at that time is essentially irrelevant. You can't prove it to the involved insurers. You can't prove it to the police. It doesn't mean anything, in terms of solving your problem. It's a distraction, as is evidenced by some of the intense -- almost vindictive -- advice it's inspiring.

To be clear: Addiction is not a moral failing. It is hellish, and can lead to shameful behavior, but there is not something inherently evil about addicted people. It may well be difficult to get them to pay. Why? Fundamentally because they're alcoholics? (I'm sorry, methheads, all of a sudden...) No, because they are jobless and broke. Jobless and broke people have trouble paying for things.

We don't generally get all hot and bothered to bounce the rubble on people who are drowning in debt, do we? We don't immediately, eagerly try to get them caught up in the -- very expensive -- legal system, thus increasing their financial burden and decreasing the chance that we'll ever get repaid, do we? Usually, we try to negotiate something first, don't we? (I dunno. That's what companies that exist to make profits off of debt do, anyway.)

As I read it, one of your priorities is to remain on neutral-to-positive terms with your neighbors. Whether this is due to genuine regard, or just some sort of Stockholm Syndrome (I've been there), it's still a worthy goal to keep in mind. Frankly, alcoholics or no, being confronted/feeling "found out" has probably not endeared them to you. You will probably never be pals. But you can still offer them a chance to make up for their dumb behavior, without crushing them to dust (or increasing the odds of a meth-fueled vengeance spree).

They've offered to pay. Let them try to do that. Determine the amount firmly (maybe the $2k estimate, maybe the deductible if that's the more feasible number), and get it in writing. Set up a payment plan that allows them to meet their other obligations (rent and utilities). See what happens. Give them a chance to be normal humans; if they fail (Former Chronic Addict sez, they might just!), then that's that. At least you gave them a shot.

[Disclosure: When I was a massive abuser of substances, I occasionally ended up owing people money for housing, etc. (my lone virtue was that I refused to drive, thank gawd); some people came down hard on me, while some tried to work things out. I estimate that I was able to fulfill the obligations of such arrangements maybe 75% of the time... Eventually, anyway. Just because someone is in the grip of addiction, doesn't mean that they strictly can't/won't try to do the right things.]
posted by credible hulk at 7:44 PM on July 9 [10 favorites]


Man, if it were me, I would:

1) Report them to the police.
2) Let your insurance company handle it
3) Move

I might even call a lawyer.
posted by empath at 8:29 PM on July 9 [4 favorites]


Actually, I think empath has it, although moving always places an undue burden on the person getting out of the shitty situation.
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 8:49 PM on July 9


I'd report it to the cops.
If they are found guilty of the hit and run- that's a 20 thousand dollar fine, (depending on your area),
found guilty of driving without a license-that's two years in jail (depending on your area),
found guilty of driving with out insurance- that's fours years without a license, up to ten years in jail-and a 50 thousand dollar fine (depending on your area)
Seeing someone who's a bad person suck it-priceless

(Disclaimer: all consequences quoted are what MODOT spits out as warnings to drivers using highway signs against such actions)
posted by QueerAngel28 at 9:11 PM on July 9


Yeah, these guys are fairly likely to go to jail if you report it to the police. If you don't report it to the police, and file a false insurance claim, you might go to jail.
posted by empath at 9:33 PM on July 9


Also, i suspect that if you tell your landlord that you're moving because your deadbeat neighbors did a hit-and-run on your car, I imagine they'll be evicted pretty quickly. Because I doubt they've been paying the rent on time, either.
posted by empath at 9:36 PM on July 9 [2 favorites]


No, it's the insurance company that needs to take them to small claims court, not you. You report the accident to your insurance company, tell them who caused the accident. Telling people to lie to their insurance company is really awful legal advice. It's making a fraudulent claim, and at best you'll get dropped from your insurance.
posted by empath at 10:00 PM on July 9 [2 favorites]


OP will not be filing a false insurance claim since they have no irrefutable evidence that the neighbors hit their car. No witnesses. No video of the accident.

I won a conviction because a store surveillance camera recorded the accident.

Without that video, even knowing the license plate and registered owner of the vehicle that hit mine (it was abandoned at the scene) my company was going to cover under uninsured motorist because the cost to disprove the claim of the car's owner that she wasn't driving (she was) would have been too costly.

If the OP had video of the accident, or an email statement, a signed confession - sure - report them. But it gets really dicey when the car's owner is out of the country, uninsured, there are no witnesses to the accident....

I went through this once ten years ago, and then again last year. The only reason I pushed for the conviction last year was because the car was insured and the owner could have EASILY left her insurance details with the witness who helped her. Instead, she claimed her car was stolen. That drama inconvenienced me, so I made sure she was prosecuted and convicted. Otherwise, it would have stayed a civil matter.

I had video and everyone still told me not to expect a conviction.

In this case, the OP has their own insurance, no concrete evidence, a car owner who is technically liable for the damage but is out of the country, neighbors who are directly responsible for the damage but broke and lied to begin with until they felt cornered by circumstantial evidence AND they currently owe the OP $$ for utility bills in the OP's name....


Odds are stacked against the OP, which is why insurance exists.

Without a witness or video evidence, I don't think the OP is making a false claim. They suspect the neighbor hit their car, but have no proof the neighbor was driving. All the OP has is their side of a conversation the neighbor may or may not admit to if they are investigated.

IDK.

Normally I'm ALL for reporting things to the proper authorities. This is one of those rare cases where I think the OP causes themselves more harm than good by reporting something they can't prove.

Good luck OP. That's all I've learned from my experiences navigating these waters. Hope I was helpful!!
posted by jbenben at 10:23 PM on July 9 [1 favorite]


I would recommend filing a police report, including all the info you have, and its sources, then doing the same with your insurance. Let them assess it and decide how to take it from there. Your priority needs to be getting your own car fixed and getting on with your lives. You are not responsible for either punishing or protecting your neighbours.
posted by rpfields at 5:51 AM on July 10


They are uninsured? Call the police every time they leave in the car and report them. Cops like thath kind of thing cause there's typically higher chances of getting something better if they pull them over (person hasd a warrant out for them, dui, narcotics in car, whatever). Hopefully you can get a few restfull nights to plan your move to a new place while they cool off in a jail cell.
posted by WeekendJen at 6:13 AM on July 10 [4 favorites]


Do something now, before they hit a pet or a person.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 6:36 AM on July 10 [1 favorite]


It's not exactly a hit-and-run situation: You know the driver, you know where he lives, and you can easily get his license plate number.

Go to the police and amend your report.

Are you in a state where active insurance is required to register a car? (Hint: Unless you live in New Hampshire, the answer is YES.) You can get them punished for being uninsured, through the police and/or your insurance company.

Go to your insurance company, and give them that information -- they will definitely try to collect from the offending party. Also tell them you've made a report to the police and give them that information.

This is what insurance is FOR. If they want to drop you for too many claims, shop for another insurance provider.

Sue the driver in small claims court for the deductible. You're unlikely to get paid, but it will be a judgement against them and will affect their credit.
posted by tckma at 6:58 AM on July 10


While I am not your insurance agent, it is entirely possible — particularly if your insurance is done in 6-month policies as is pretty common — that your rates went up for reasons entirely unconnected to the hit-and-run claim. I'd talk to your insurance agent, if you have a full-service policy.

In many states the company cannot raise your rates simply as a result of a claim which was not your fault. (E.g. hit-and-run, tree falling on car, etc.) You could get an official answer from your state's insurance regulatory office, if you wanted to.

But at any rate, it is very silly to let a concern about rates keep you from actually using your insurance. This situation you are in? It is why you have comprehensive insurance. It is so you don't have to pursue crazy messed-up drunks when they run into your car. Leave that to the professionals, file a claim, move on with life.
posted by Kadin2048 at 8:30 AM on July 10 [2 favorites]


If they genuinely want to pay off the debt but they have more time than money, you can work out something where they volunteer at a mutually agreed upon organization. $2000 would be 200 hours or so. You both win.

For the sake of consistency, I would do this only if I already volunteered or donated money somewhere.
posted by aniola at 8:42 AM on July 10


If the utilities are on one meter, chances are one of the rental units is illegal. You can check with the city, but I wouldn't narc the landlord out, because it's leverage.

So..call your landlord and say, "Leslie, the other tenants are very disruptive. They're late with the utility payments and they've done a hit and run on cars in the neighborhood, including mine. They're keeping me up with their partying. Additionally, they've added a third roommate. None of them is working now, and they're selling their stuff to try and keep ahead of their bills. I don't want you to end up in a bad spot, and I for sure don't want to be in one either. You may want to move to evict them sooner, rather than later if they're late for the rent. Also, I called the city because I think it's strange that two units share one meter. Funny story, that's not kosher. I didn't give them my name or the address....yet. Have a good one!"
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 8:49 AM on July 10 [3 favorites]


Update:
Thanks for all your thoughts. We did not talk to them yet since we were still agonizing over options last night. They have been ridiculously quiet over the last couple days and seem to be in hiding. We did receive the remainder of the bills yesterday so there we may be able to use their guilt or shame that we can use to our advantage. I don't think they are bad kids, they just made a stupid mistake.

In any case, I think we decided we would give them a choice after laying cards on the table:

(1) Write up a contract for payment terms to fix our vehicle. We think the estimate is high and is more like $1 K for the stuff we really want fixed on the car which is still a lot but I think they have resources (family, many of whom I've met) who might be able to help them. (I like the idea of having them volunteer their time but not sure if that's realistic). This is lowest cost (to us) option.

(2) In a week, if we don't see money or attempts to pay, we will file with insurance telling them everything we know (I do not want to commit fraud). Consequences of which could be everything that people have laid out here (although insurance will most likely going after their absent friend). We lose $500 again for deductible.

Landlord has been good to us, not raising rent in two years (though he certainly can) and fixing problems in the house immediately as they arise...I don't want to involve him if I don't have to. (Water bill is for two units in my name so I don't think it's illegal since I called to set it up). Of course, if the drunken driving occurs again, everything changes...
posted by ch3ch2oh at 10:53 AM on July 10 [1 favorite]


They have been ridiculously quiet over the last couple days and seem to be in hiding.

This is really not a good sign.
posted by winna at 11:54 AM on July 10 [3 favorites]


Water bill is for two units in my name so I don't think it's illegal since I called to set it up

That's because the Water Authority doesn't know it's two separate units. Trust me, if they did, it would be a problem for your landlord.

Why would you willingly take less or fix less on your car than you're entitlted to? That's just crazypants.

As raising rent, Oakland has rent-control and you may want to understand what's involved in that.

Don't cave, don't give people the benefit of the doubt, stop allowing folks to take advantage of you.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 12:07 PM on July 10 [5 favorites]


I got curious and looked into the shared utility thing per CA statutes, and it's a little fuzzy to me whether you are required to have separate meters; it would still be a useful exercise to go through a tenant organization to inform yourself. But it sounds like at the very least it has to be spelled out in your lease who is responsible for what.

My concern is that if the kids stiff you for utilities during the time it takes the landlord to (potentially) evict them, you will be on the hook for their portion or else your service will be shut off, and you'll have little recourse for going after them. Can you get an assurance from him in writing that he'll cover their nut if they flake?

If you don't want to raise the issue of them being behind, or about the car stuff, you can just couch it as a "what-if" worst-case scenario preventative measure, "in the interests of keeping good landlord/tenant relations and making sure the landlord's investment is protected (i.e., making sure water is shut off willy-nilly, causing potential issues)."
posted by nacho fries at 1:23 PM on July 10


Of course, if the drunken driving occurs again, everything changes...

Do you really want to wait until that happens?

You and your partner have already had the good fortune of not being in the vicinity when they "barrelled out of the garage."

I would not risk it again.
posted by invisible ink at 6:34 PM on July 10 [2 favorites]


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