how do I get my hairdresser on board?
January 30, 2014 9:20 AM Subscribe
Please gimme a GREAT reason my hairdresser would let me book four hours of hairdressing, not for my hair, but to give me hair-cutting lessons.
I hate getting my hair cut by others (though don't suffer if I cut it myself). There's one hairdresser who has her own method of cutting curls which I love (clarification: love the results. still hate getting the haircut), and I'd love to understand how she does it. She actually teaches her method, though in a course that's way too long for me, and has turned down requests (not just by me) for a shorter course.
I'd love to convince her to let me reserve four hairstyling spots with her, not to cut my hair, but to get private hair-cutting lessons. I just haven't been able to come up with any good reason why she'd want to. Any ideas?
(and no, I can't just observe as she cuts my hair. not only is the angle impossible, but I can't see without my glasses)
I hate getting my hair cut by others (though don't suffer if I cut it myself). There's one hairdresser who has her own method of cutting curls which I love (clarification: love the results. still hate getting the haircut), and I'd love to understand how she does it. She actually teaches her method, though in a course that's way too long for me, and has turned down requests (not just by me) for a shorter course.
I'd love to convince her to let me reserve four hairstyling spots with her, not to cut my hair, but to get private hair-cutting lessons. I just haven't been able to come up with any good reason why she'd want to. Any ideas?
(and no, I can't just observe as she cuts my hair. not only is the angle impossible, but I can't see without my glasses)
What you are asking her to do is to cut her earnings short, either by eliminating a client or by asking her to shorten her course and by association, to get less money for it.
Nope, I can't think of one reason why she should.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 9:23 AM on January 30, 2014 [53 favorites]
Nope, I can't think of one reason why she should.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 9:23 AM on January 30, 2014 [53 favorites]
Seconding Ruthless Bunny. Would you ask the chef of a local restaurant for his/her recipes, so you could replicate the results at home and stop patronizing his/her establishment? Would you ask your housekeeper to teach you his/her cleaning tricks, so you could let him/her go and just do it yourself? If the answer is no (and I hope it is), then doesn't the same logic apply here?
posted by schroedingersgirl at 9:30 AM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by schroedingersgirl at 9:30 AM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I also hate haircuts, so I get where you're coming from here, but I don't think there's any good argument that will convince her here. A couple different ideas, though:
Do you have any friends with curls who would be willing to let you observe her cutting their hair if you paid for the haircut?
Do you know anyone who has taken the longer course, and if so, can you ask them for lessons?
posted by pie ninja at 9:32 AM on January 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
Do you have any friends with curls who would be willing to let you observe her cutting their hair if you paid for the haircut?
Do you know anyone who has taken the longer course, and if so, can you ask them for lessons?
posted by pie ninja at 9:32 AM on January 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
If you can't observe while she cuts it, as someone who has attempted to figure out what magic my stylist is working on my own curls when she handles them, I'm pretty sure you're not actually going to be able to do it, because you're going to have to do it blind and backwards. She knows how to cut other people's hair, not how to teach you to cut your own.
posted by Sequence at 9:32 AM on January 30, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by Sequence at 9:32 AM on January 30, 2014 [6 favorites]
Best answer: I think that if you have a valid medical/social reason like anxiety or a phobia you just have to tell her that directly and hope that she has empathy for your reasons.
posted by mercredi at 9:33 AM on January 30, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by mercredi at 9:33 AM on January 30, 2014 [3 favorites]
The only thing you can do is offer to pay her the full amount of how many haircuts she would do in the 4-hour period, plus a 20% tip, and see what she says.
posted by something something at 9:33 AM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by something something at 9:33 AM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I think if you started negotiations at the cost of 4 hours of haircutting plus the cost of her course, plus extra, that might work. That way, she makes all her money plus the extra. Keep your suffering in mind when you figure out how much the "extra" should be.
posted by Houstonian at 9:33 AM on January 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Houstonian at 9:33 AM on January 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: maybe I should add: paying the full (year long) course fee is not an option I can afford. and she wouldn't worry about losing one client (has lots of them).
posted by mirileh at 9:45 AM on January 30, 2014
posted by mirileh at 9:45 AM on January 30, 2014
Response by poster: schroedingersgirl, it's physically hard for me to get a haircut (bad neck. back back) and she knows it, so it's more like the request of a disabled person (who can't get to the restaurant ) for the recipe of a favorite dish.
posted by mirileh at 9:48 AM on January 30, 2014
posted by mirileh at 9:48 AM on January 30, 2014
This is the kind of thing that people refuse to do on principle. You can go ahead and ask, but I'd expect an irritated -- and possibly offended -- "no."
You're basically asking her to do you a personal favor that's much more to your own advantage than hers, and you're not a personal friend of hers. You're also implying that a skill that she's spent years developing -- and which she feels requires a year of lessons to teach other people -- is actually something that can be taught in a four hour private lesson. Which....may come across as a little insulting.
Maybe ask in the lowest-pressure possible way? And be ready to drop it if (when) she refuses.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 9:50 AM on January 30, 2014 [25 favorites]
You're basically asking her to do you a personal favor that's much more to your own advantage than hers, and you're not a personal friend of hers. You're also implying that a skill that she's spent years developing -- and which she feels requires a year of lessons to teach other people -- is actually something that can be taught in a four hour private lesson. Which....may come across as a little insulting.
Maybe ask in the lowest-pressure possible way? And be ready to drop it if (when) she refuses.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 9:50 AM on January 30, 2014 [25 favorites]
The only "good reason" she would do this is if you offer enough money to make it worth her while. That's how you "convince" professionals to provide you with services.
posted by Wordwoman at 9:54 AM on January 30, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by Wordwoman at 9:54 AM on January 30, 2014 [6 favorites]
Ah, thanks for the follow up - that changes things! (I personally HATE having other people cut my hair, but it's just a personal space issue...your neck and back pain makes your request somewhat more reasonable.)
I think it's fine to ask her to quickly show you - perhaps offer a hefty bit of compensation - but definitely don't ask twice. Make sure she knows the request is because of your pain issues, not because you are just trying to save a buck in the long run.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 9:54 AM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
I think it's fine to ask her to quickly show you - perhaps offer a hefty bit of compensation - but definitely don't ask twice. Make sure she knows the request is because of your pain issues, not because you are just trying to save a buck in the long run.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 9:54 AM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
I wonder if, instead, you could try to work something out where you pay her (probably much) more per haircut for her to do it at your home, or someplace where you could be more comfortable?
posted by phunniemee at 10:01 AM on January 30, 2014 [17 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 10:01 AM on January 30, 2014 [17 favorites]
It's not just that you're asking her to take a cut in her earnings and that she'll lose a customer.
It's that a skill like this takes YEARS of practice. That she had to take the year long course you can't afford, and more courses on top of that, and had to get licensed.
And you really think that you'll figure it all out in just a couple of hours?
I cut my husband's hair on a regular basis. I have for nearly 14 years. It's just running the clippers over his head.
I still fuck it up on occasion.
So understand that while you might think you've totally got it and will be able to do this, it's dammed unlikely.
So there's a reason she might say no. She spent a lot of time and money to learn how to do that. And I'm sure she's also spent a lot of time cleaning up other people's attempts.
posted by Katemonkey at 10:01 AM on January 30, 2014 [7 favorites]
It's that a skill like this takes YEARS of practice. That she had to take the year long course you can't afford, and more courses on top of that, and had to get licensed.
And you really think that you'll figure it all out in just a couple of hours?
I cut my husband's hair on a regular basis. I have for nearly 14 years. It's just running the clippers over his head.
I still fuck it up on occasion.
So understand that while you might think you've totally got it and will be able to do this, it's dammed unlikely.
So there's a reason she might say no. She spent a lot of time and money to learn how to do that. And I'm sure she's also spent a lot of time cleaning up other people's attempts.
posted by Katemonkey at 10:01 AM on January 30, 2014 [7 favorites]
What you seem to want is very specific in kind of an odd way -- why four hairstyling sessions precisely?
What I'd suggest is that you come at this from a less precise perspective. "You know how much I love what you do with my hair, but because of my disabilities/injuries/medical issues (however you describe your back/neck) it's really painful for me to have it done regularly. Is this something I could learn to maintain for myself at home?"
Open the discussion in a general way and see if it's plausible, and from there talk about what it would take and how much you could afford to pay.
There may be some middle ground between learning to fully cut your own hair using her method and 6 week touch-ups that would come to light as a result of this conversation that wouldn't if you just went in with 'I think you can teach me to cut my own hair in 4 lessons and that's what you should do, because X,Y,Z.'
It would also open the door to a greater discussion of possible accommodations for your physical limitations. If you can cut your own hair easily because you do it with your neck in a given position or in a chair with a different back, maybe there's a way to deal with that. Maybe you can bring the chair if it's small enough to fit in a car, or she (or one of the people she's trained) will do housecalls (this already exists for house-bound people).
posted by jacquilynne at 10:01 AM on January 30, 2014 [18 favorites]
What I'd suggest is that you come at this from a less precise perspective. "You know how much I love what you do with my hair, but because of my disabilities/injuries/medical issues (however you describe your back/neck) it's really painful for me to have it done regularly. Is this something I could learn to maintain for myself at home?"
Open the discussion in a general way and see if it's plausible, and from there talk about what it would take and how much you could afford to pay.
There may be some middle ground between learning to fully cut your own hair using her method and 6 week touch-ups that would come to light as a result of this conversation that wouldn't if you just went in with 'I think you can teach me to cut my own hair in 4 lessons and that's what you should do, because X,Y,Z.'
It would also open the door to a greater discussion of possible accommodations for your physical limitations. If you can cut your own hair easily because you do it with your neck in a given position or in a chair with a different back, maybe there's a way to deal with that. Maybe you can bring the chair if it's small enough to fit in a car, or she (or one of the people she's trained) will do housecalls (this already exists for house-bound people).
posted by jacquilynne at 10:01 AM on January 30, 2014 [18 favorites]
you're proposing to condense a year-long course of instruction into four hours? i don't think this is any more realistic than condensing three years of law school into twelve hours.
posted by bruce at 10:02 AM on January 30, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by bruce at 10:02 AM on January 30, 2014 [6 favorites]
Best answer: Narrative Priorities: "This is the kind of thing that people refuse to do on principle. You can go ahead and ask, but I'd expect an irritated -- and possibly offended -- "no."
You're basically asking her to do you a personal favor that's much more to your own advantage than hers, and you're not a personal friend of hers. You're also implying that a skill that she's spent years developing -- and which she feels requires a year of lessons to teach other people -- is actually something that can be taught in a four hour private lesson. Which....may come across as a little insulting.
Maybe ask in the lowest-pressure possible way? And be ready to drop it if (when) she refuses."
I disagree. I think it is very individual to the person. This hairdresser teaches a course regarding her skill. She already sells her knowledge. The poster is willing to pay. The poster is not asking to learn how to cut hair for everyone, just how she can do an adequate job cutting her own hair because there are physical and emotional issues with her coming in to get her hair cut.
The hairdresser will lose the business. The poster will stop coming in. She seems to have a decent business and the loss of one client for reasons that have nothing to do with her skill set is not a problem.
I think if the poster pays for the time, asks in a way that frames it as a medical issue, the hairdresser will as a matter of principle AGREE. I happen to think there is a likelihood that the hairdresser can turn it into a net positive in terms of revenue.
I think the real issue here, although not part of the question, is can you cut your own curly hair effectively? I have cut my own down to a "3" on the buzzer, but styling it ain't. I also needed to have my son neaten up the back.
Ask nicely telling her your issues and explain that the course is too long, too expensive and you are not looking to get into the hairdressing business, but rather need to be able to do your own hair from time to time because of you physical issues.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:02 AM on January 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
You're basically asking her to do you a personal favor that's much more to your own advantage than hers, and you're not a personal friend of hers. You're also implying that a skill that she's spent years developing -- and which she feels requires a year of lessons to teach other people -- is actually something that can be taught in a four hour private lesson. Which....may come across as a little insulting.
Maybe ask in the lowest-pressure possible way? And be ready to drop it if (when) she refuses."
I disagree. I think it is very individual to the person. This hairdresser teaches a course regarding her skill. She already sells her knowledge. The poster is willing to pay. The poster is not asking to learn how to cut hair for everyone, just how she can do an adequate job cutting her own hair because there are physical and emotional issues with her coming in to get her hair cut.
The hairdresser will lose the business. The poster will stop coming in. She seems to have a decent business and the loss of one client for reasons that have nothing to do with her skill set is not a problem.
I think if the poster pays for the time, asks in a way that frames it as a medical issue, the hairdresser will as a matter of principle AGREE. I happen to think there is a likelihood that the hairdresser can turn it into a net positive in terms of revenue.
I think the real issue here, although not part of the question, is can you cut your own curly hair effectively? I have cut my own down to a "3" on the buzzer, but styling it ain't. I also needed to have my son neaten up the back.
Ask nicely telling her your issues and explain that the course is too long, too expensive and you are not looking to get into the hairdressing business, but rather need to be able to do your own hair from time to time because of you physical issues.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:02 AM on January 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: maybe should have also mentioned: I don't mind messing up on my own. I'd like pointers in how to try and play around with my own hair. I don't expect my haircuts to look professional.
posted by mirileh at 10:07 AM on January 30, 2014
posted by mirileh at 10:07 AM on January 30, 2014
My father (a barber) taught me and my sister how to cut his hair, so I have some basic hair cutting skills -- but I could not cut my own hair. One just can't reach all the areas to see what one is doing. That alone is good reason not to try.
posted by Lescha at 10:09 AM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Lescha at 10:09 AM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Man, people love getting on their high horses here. Just explain your situation and ask her. She's a professional; she knows what her time is worth; she knows what your business is worth to her. If there's a price point at which she's willing to offer you the lessons and which you can pay you're both happy; if not, no harm was done by asking.
posted by yoink at 10:12 AM on January 30, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by yoink at 10:12 AM on January 30, 2014 [6 favorites]
You may be misunderstanding her course, as well. There are many techniques for cutting hair that build upon the basics that you learn in hairdressing school. So what she teaches is most likely an advanced course in a specialized method that would require "prerequisites," if you will.
It may be worth your time to get a cut from her and then go to a hairdressing academy and ask if the instructors would be willing to teach you a short course on approximating that style.
posted by xingcat at 10:15 AM on January 30, 2014
It may be worth your time to get a cut from her and then go to a hairdressing academy and ask if the instructors would be willing to teach you a short course on approximating that style.
posted by xingcat at 10:15 AM on January 30, 2014
This is weird. You can't sit in a chair and get your hair cut, but you expect to be able to cut your own hair?
I don't think there are any GREAT reasons why she should do this. And there are several good reasons why she wouldn't agree:
(1) you're a non professional so you are not coming into this with the skills and background of people who would be taking her full course.
(2) you're asking her to agree to an idiosyncratic, one-off arrangement that is just plain weird. To extend the chef example, just because your favorite chef teaches a six-week class to other food professionals, doesn't mean it's reasonable for you, a patron who has enjoyed his food, to expect him to give you a four hour condensed version of his class because you have social phobia and plus you prefer to dine on your sofa because restaurant chairs hurt your back. The request is weird, it's off-putting, and it's puts the hairdresser in an awkward position.
(3) you're also asking the hairdresser to put in the hard work of condensing the material just for you. Not reasonable.
Trust your gut ... If you can't come up with any good/great reasons why she should do it, that's a sign that there aren't any.
posted by jayder at 10:17 AM on January 30, 2014 [16 favorites]
I don't think there are any GREAT reasons why she should do this. And there are several good reasons why she wouldn't agree:
(1) you're a non professional so you are not coming into this with the skills and background of people who would be taking her full course.
(2) you're asking her to agree to an idiosyncratic, one-off arrangement that is just plain weird. To extend the chef example, just because your favorite chef teaches a six-week class to other food professionals, doesn't mean it's reasonable for you, a patron who has enjoyed his food, to expect him to give you a four hour condensed version of his class because you have social phobia and plus you prefer to dine on your sofa because restaurant chairs hurt your back. The request is weird, it's off-putting, and it's puts the hairdresser in an awkward position.
(3) you're also asking the hairdresser to put in the hard work of condensing the material just for you. Not reasonable.
Trust your gut ... If you can't come up with any good/great reasons why she should do it, that's a sign that there aren't any.
posted by jayder at 10:17 AM on January 30, 2014 [16 favorites]
If you've got neck and back problems, how are you going to reach behind your head to cut that hair? You can handle the front and side with mirrors, but still... I mess around with bits (eg bangs) on my own between my biannual haircuts and it's still a contortion act.
That said, my hair looks ok. (It's curly/wavy though, so mistakes are easily hidden.) I have just played around on my own and consulted YouTube when in doubt. Maybe you could do something like that (get fewer pro haircuts, maybe at home, and experiment on your own in between, if you're indifferent to the outcome).
posted by cotton dress sock at 10:27 AM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
That said, my hair looks ok. (It's curly/wavy though, so mistakes are easily hidden.) I have just played around on my own and consulted YouTube when in doubt. Maybe you could do something like that (get fewer pro haircuts, maybe at home, and experiment on your own in between, if you're indifferent to the outcome).
posted by cotton dress sock at 10:27 AM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Best answer: This is weird. You can't sit in a chair and get your hair cut, but you expect to be able to cut your own hair?
It sounds, from the Asker's question, as though she does, in fact, frequently cut her own hair. There's just this particular technique that she'd like to be able to master.
The question you should ask the hairdresser, mirileh, is not so much "would you be willing to do me this favor" but "how much would you charge me to do this?" Clearly there would be some price point at which it becomes worth her while to do it. The only question is whether that is a price point which works for you.
posted by yoink at 10:28 AM on January 30, 2014 [3 favorites]
It sounds, from the Asker's question, as though she does, in fact, frequently cut her own hair. There's just this particular technique that she'd like to be able to master.
The question you should ask the hairdresser, mirileh, is not so much "would you be willing to do me this favor" but "how much would you charge me to do this?" Clearly there would be some price point at which it becomes worth her while to do it. The only question is whether that is a price point which works for you.
posted by yoink at 10:28 AM on January 30, 2014 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: please don't tell me why this isn't a good idea for her (I get that). I'm trying to find a creative angle that is.
Like in schroedingersgirl's example, a chef will sometimes share a loved recipe (that is usually too much work for most people anyway) with a reporter/food blogger for the publicity.
I'm looking for an angle she'd like too.
posted by mirileh at 10:30 AM on January 30, 2014
Like in schroedingersgirl's example, a chef will sometimes share a loved recipe (that is usually too much work for most people anyway) with a reporter/food blogger for the publicity.
I'm looking for an angle she'd like too.
posted by mirileh at 10:30 AM on January 30, 2014
Okay, I thought of a better analogy that kind of gets at the problem here. What you're proposing is analogous to a situation in which I represent somebody as an attorney, and I happen to also teach a year long trial practice course to other lawyers.
The person I represent (not a lawyer) says "hey I like your work, I've got a lot of legal problems that I'm planning to represent myself on, and I know you teach that one year trial course, which I can't afford. Will you give me a special four-hour session boiling all of that down for me?"
As an attorney that would really rub me the wrong way. First, I wouldn't feel comfortable training a non- professional. Second, it's ridiculous to expect me to sum up a year long course for a four hour condensed version. Third, there's a big difference between a yearlong professional class to colleagues and a one-shot four hour thing with a layperson. Fourth, as a professional who is proud of my own work, I don't want to send my work out into the world in this weird way. Fifth, one-off arrangements like this take a kind of psychological toll, outside my regular routine, that I don't want to deal with -- I'll be dreading this session, wondering whether you'll bug me afterwards with tons of questions, whether you'll hate the results, etc. Just, no.
posted by jayder at 10:34 AM on January 30, 2014 [8 favorites]
The person I represent (not a lawyer) says "hey I like your work, I've got a lot of legal problems that I'm planning to represent myself on, and I know you teach that one year trial course, which I can't afford. Will you give me a special four-hour session boiling all of that down for me?"
As an attorney that would really rub me the wrong way. First, I wouldn't feel comfortable training a non- professional. Second, it's ridiculous to expect me to sum up a year long course for a four hour condensed version. Third, there's a big difference between a yearlong professional class to colleagues and a one-shot four hour thing with a layperson. Fourth, as a professional who is proud of my own work, I don't want to send my work out into the world in this weird way. Fifth, one-off arrangements like this take a kind of psychological toll, outside my regular routine, that I don't want to deal with -- I'll be dreading this session, wondering whether you'll bug me afterwards with tons of questions, whether you'll hate the results, etc. Just, no.
posted by jayder at 10:34 AM on January 30, 2014 [8 favorites]
Try a pair of contact lenses (so you can watch).
Bring a friend who (can surreptitiously watch from behind).
posted by St. Peepsburg at 10:35 AM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Bring a friend who (can surreptitiously watch from behind).
posted by St. Peepsburg at 10:35 AM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Just saw your follow up. You sorta need to know why this is likely to meet with resistance in order to compellingly persuade her, in my view.
posted by jayder at 10:36 AM on January 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by jayder at 10:36 AM on January 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
The thing is, there are probably a dozen actual techniques that can be taught, sure, and you've probably been unhappy with other pro stylists' use of them.
What makes a stylist good is his/her feel, dexterity, judgement - that is, experience and skill. People who are great at things aren't always wonderful at teaching them, and may not even know why they're great. [Edit -- forget that, ok she teaches, sorry! Though, it's still use of the technique, often. But you're willing to try...]
On preview second St. Peepsburg, contacts + get a friend to watch.
posted by cotton dress sock at 10:36 AM on January 30, 2014
What makes a stylist good is his/her feel, dexterity, judgement - that is, experience and skill. People who are great at things aren't always wonderful at teaching them, and may not even know why they're great. [Edit -- forget that, ok she teaches, sorry! Though, it's still use of the technique, often. But you're willing to try...]
On preview second St. Peepsburg, contacts + get a friend to watch.
posted by cotton dress sock at 10:36 AM on January 30, 2014
Is she at all trying to make "a name" for herself?
You can play that angle. Find someone with [bigger name] that she could teach to. Find her a fashion opportunity (lots of stylists do competitions) or some other public opportunity to get her name/brand out there.
Find a reporter friend who is doing a story on awesome hair innovations.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 10:37 AM on January 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
You can play that angle. Find someone with [bigger name] that she could teach to. Find her a fashion opportunity (lots of stylists do competitions) or some other public opportunity to get her name/brand out there.
Find a reporter friend who is doing a story on awesome hair innovations.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 10:37 AM on January 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
Regardless of payment or losing a single client or other reasons, her reputation as a skilled professional is at stake. You're asking her to send you out into the world saying "HairProGirl taught me how to do this." If it looks bad, she looks bad.
Plus it's probably in violation of her licensing board rules to "teach" someone outside of approved curricula.
posted by headnsouth at 10:39 AM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Plus it's probably in violation of her licensing board rules to "teach" someone outside of approved curricula.
posted by headnsouth at 10:39 AM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: outside of the US (no regulation problems to overcome). no one will be blamed for my own haircuts (and no reputation is at stake).
posted by mirileh at 10:41 AM on January 30, 2014
posted by mirileh at 10:41 AM on January 30, 2014
There's nothing you can say or do that will guarantee that she will accommodate you. If I were you, I would follow JohnnyGunn and jacquilynne's guidelines.
posted by girlmightlive at 10:45 AM on January 30, 2014
posted by girlmightlive at 10:45 AM on January 30, 2014
If someone was asking this of me, the only way I'd consider it is if the pay was worth the effort. Since you can't afford the year long course, I'm guessing you're trying to figure out an angle that won't cost much.
The only "angle" I could see working would be the injury angle, but the fact that you are planning to cut your own hair, which is much harder on a back and neck than other people cutting it, really throws that out the window. (I've cut my own hair, unless you walk around all twisted with your arms above your head, everything is going to be sore.) Honestly, bringing that up would give the whole conversation a veneer of scamming, I'd avoid it.
I think your best bet would be to wear contacts and ask her some questions about her technique next time you go. I understand hating getting your hair cut (also why I tried cutting my own hair), my solution was to let it go long and just get it cut once or twice a year. I prefer it short, but it took too much maintenance and cost too much money.
posted by Dynex at 10:48 AM on January 30, 2014 [3 favorites]
The only "angle" I could see working would be the injury angle, but the fact that you are planning to cut your own hair, which is much harder on a back and neck than other people cutting it, really throws that out the window. (I've cut my own hair, unless you walk around all twisted with your arms above your head, everything is going to be sore.) Honestly, bringing that up would give the whole conversation a veneer of scamming, I'd avoid it.
I think your best bet would be to wear contacts and ask her some questions about her technique next time you go. I understand hating getting your hair cut (also why I tried cutting my own hair), my solution was to let it go long and just get it cut once or twice a year. I prefer it short, but it took too much maintenance and cost too much money.
posted by Dynex at 10:48 AM on January 30, 2014 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I've thought of one thing that might be a positive inducement to her other than money (which, obviously, would have to be the principle inducement)--she might be intrigued by the technical challenge of figuring out how someone would master the technique solo. An appeal to her along the lines of "I wonder if you'd be able to figure out a way in which I could adapt your technique for those times when I cut my own hair--I would of course be willing to pay you whatever you think reasonable" might get her intrigued by the challenge.
posted by yoink at 10:50 AM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by yoink at 10:50 AM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Plus it's probably in violation of her licensing board rules to "teach" someone outside of approved curricula.
This is definitely true in the U.S., so best to look into it wherever you are. If there is no licensing board (which you don't say), then you're good on that front. However I can't think of any way this is a win for her, if you can't afford to pay her a lot of money. Chefs that have published recipes will get a lot of publicity for their restaurant endeavors by doing so. This is not going to get her: more publicity, more clients, or acclaim. It will get her one less client. There's no upside here, unless she just thinks it would be a fun idea. So maybe stop trying to think of ways to convince her and just ask her if she'd be willing to teach.
posted by oneirodynia at 10:52 AM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
This is definitely true in the U.S., so best to look into it wherever you are. If there is no licensing board (which you don't say), then you're good on that front. However I can't think of any way this is a win for her, if you can't afford to pay her a lot of money. Chefs that have published recipes will get a lot of publicity for their restaurant endeavors by doing so. This is not going to get her: more publicity, more clients, or acclaim. It will get her one less client. There's no upside here, unless she just thinks it would be a fun idea. So maybe stop trying to think of ways to convince her and just ask her if she'd be willing to teach.
posted by oneirodynia at 10:52 AM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
"and has turned down requests (not just by me) for a shorter course"
It sounds to me like she set her own boundary, and you'd prefer to ignore it. Because of your physical limitations you are indicating you are allowed to ignore it. I'm not sure that's true, but it sounds like that's the basis for your argument with her. She still may decline.
Did she simply say "no" or did she give reasons? If so, what reasons did she give for turning you down? Are there any reasons she could give that you'd accept?
Also, what country is this in then?
I'd be trying to think of more creative ways to compensate her for her time - are there talents or skills you have such that there can be an exchange? You're asking to be a kind of apprentice, but for 4 hours. There's an opportunity for a relationship here, but to do that you need to stop thinking of her as a person to manipulate into getting what you want (a harsh way to put it, but nonetheless truthful) and more as a person with her own point of view with a set of skills worth learning. Think creatively about how you interact with her.
posted by artlung at 10:54 AM on January 30, 2014 [5 favorites]
It sounds to me like she set her own boundary, and you'd prefer to ignore it. Because of your physical limitations you are indicating you are allowed to ignore it. I'm not sure that's true, but it sounds like that's the basis for your argument with her. She still may decline.
Did she simply say "no" or did she give reasons? If so, what reasons did she give for turning you down? Are there any reasons she could give that you'd accept?
Also, what country is this in then?
I'd be trying to think of more creative ways to compensate her for her time - are there talents or skills you have such that there can be an exchange? You're asking to be a kind of apprentice, but for 4 hours. There's an opportunity for a relationship here, but to do that you need to stop thinking of her as a person to manipulate into getting what you want (a harsh way to put it, but nonetheless truthful) and more as a person with her own point of view with a set of skills worth learning. Think creatively about how you interact with her.
posted by artlung at 10:54 AM on January 30, 2014 [5 favorites]
Rather than asking HER to teach you, why don't you ask her if she KNOWS OF ANYONE who would be able to do this for you. Ask her for suggestions or people to contact, how you should best go about finding someone to help you with this. Who knows, she may offer her services to you, but I highly doubt that she will.
And really, you already know that she doesn't do reduced time courses. Respect that. I agree that asking her to do this is probably pretty insulting for her, and I don't think there is a creative way to ask her to do this that won't still be insulting. You can't make a punch in the face hurt less by doing it creatively.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 11:23 AM on January 30, 2014 [10 favorites]
And really, you already know that she doesn't do reduced time courses. Respect that. I agree that asking her to do this is probably pretty insulting for her, and I don't think there is a creative way to ask her to do this that won't still be insulting. You can't make a punch in the face hurt less by doing it creatively.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 11:23 AM on January 30, 2014 [10 favorites]
Best answer: You won't know until you ask. I see no harm in asking, provided you ask in the right way, and take no for an answer at an appropriate time. The appropriate time is probably not the first time she says 'no,' but it is better to ask in such a way that her first answer is not going to be 'no,' but rather leads to further negotiation.
The idea that she'd say "no" simply because this would cost her business is silly. Hairdresser's incomes end up being limited by the price they can charge for their services, the markup they can charge on add-ons, and supply (the number of hours they can stand to work), not by demand.
The fact that she offers a class might be relevant here, but it isn't decisive. She probably teaches the class because of some combination of enjoying sharing her knowledge, and favorable economics (her costs are still her time, but she gets a multiplier though multiple students).
In the end, her reasons for saying yes will probably come down to a combination of simple economic considerations modified by very personal factors, and, as such, can only really be arrived at through conversation. A few things to keep in mind though, you'll almost certainly need to pay her as much for her time as she makes doing hair. You'll do well to offer to pay her a bit more. Given the difficulties you have getting a haircut, chances are you are one of her more difficult clients (which doesn't mean anything about whether she ultimately likes or dislikes having you as a client), so, part of her might actually be happy to loose your business in the long run.
posted by Good Brain at 11:47 AM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
The idea that she'd say "no" simply because this would cost her business is silly. Hairdresser's incomes end up being limited by the price they can charge for their services, the markup they can charge on add-ons, and supply (the number of hours they can stand to work), not by demand.
The fact that she offers a class might be relevant here, but it isn't decisive. She probably teaches the class because of some combination of enjoying sharing her knowledge, and favorable economics (her costs are still her time, but she gets a multiplier though multiple students).
In the end, her reasons for saying yes will probably come down to a combination of simple economic considerations modified by very personal factors, and, as such, can only really be arrived at through conversation. A few things to keep in mind though, you'll almost certainly need to pay her as much for her time as she makes doing hair. You'll do well to offer to pay her a bit more. Given the difficulties you have getting a haircut, chances are you are one of her more difficult clients (which doesn't mean anything about whether she ultimately likes or dislikes having you as a client), so, part of her might actually be happy to loose your business in the long run.
posted by Good Brain at 11:47 AM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Best answer: And really, you already know that she doesn't do reduced time courses. Respect that. I agree that asking her to do this is probably pretty insulting for her,
There is no insult in asking a professional how much they would charge to provide a given service and accepting their reply in good grace. There might be an insult in suggesting that they should provide the service for a lower rate or whether or not they wish to do so, but it is absurdly overwrought to suggest that merely asking this person to propose a price for a demonstration of a technique (which is NOT the same thing as asking for a condensed version of the course she teaches) is either an insult or a grave violation of professional ethics or whatever other bizarre notions you guys are entertaining.
posted by yoink at 11:51 AM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
There is no insult in asking a professional how much they would charge to provide a given service and accepting their reply in good grace. There might be an insult in suggesting that they should provide the service for a lower rate or whether or not they wish to do so, but it is absurdly overwrought to suggest that merely asking this person to propose a price for a demonstration of a technique (which is NOT the same thing as asking for a condensed version of the course she teaches) is either an insult or a grave violation of professional ethics or whatever other bizarre notions you guys are entertaining.
posted by yoink at 11:51 AM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
it's physically hard for me to get a haircut (bad neck. back back)
You're much more likely to have success asking her to make (compensated) housecalls so you can get your hair cut in a more comfortable position/chair at home.
I don't understand how cutting your own hair will not be just as bad on your neck/back.
posted by melissasaurus at 11:53 AM on January 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
You're much more likely to have success asking her to make (compensated) housecalls so you can get your hair cut in a more comfortable position/chair at home.
I don't understand how cutting your own hair will not be just as bad on your neck/back.
posted by melissasaurus at 11:53 AM on January 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
I don't understand how cutting your own hair will not be just as bad on your neck/back.
I would imagine it would be because you can take your sweet time and take breaks as often as you like. Something you can't do under the gun of a hairdressing appointment.
posted by yoink at 11:57 AM on January 30, 2014 [3 favorites]
I would imagine it would be because you can take your sweet time and take breaks as often as you like. Something you can't do under the gun of a hairdressing appointment.
posted by yoink at 11:57 AM on January 30, 2014 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Please gimme a GREAT reason my hairdresser would let me book four hours of hairdressing, not for my hair, but to give me hair-cutting lessons.
Don't negotiate with strangers on the internet, negotiate with your hairdresser! Start with money and the reason why you hate getting haircuts. If she doesn't agree then, what else do you have or can get that she might want? Is your uncle the chef at an exclusive restaurant and you can get her t of the head line? Sister work at an expensive shoe store and can get a 20% discount? You paint portraits? Whatever it is, offer her something if she doesn't want the money.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:08 PM on January 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
Don't negotiate with strangers on the internet, negotiate with your hairdresser! Start with money and the reason why you hate getting haircuts. If she doesn't agree then, what else do you have or can get that she might want? Is your uncle the chef at an exclusive restaurant and you can get her t of the head line? Sister work at an expensive shoe store and can get a 20% discount? You paint portraits? Whatever it is, offer her something if she doesn't want the money.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:08 PM on January 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
To sum it up, it sounds like you're trying to get the magic key that'll get your hairdresser to say "Yes" on the first go, on your schedule. Don't think it has to be an all or nothing, just start negotiating and don't take no for an answer, in polite and friendly way. Be willing to pay for 6 or 7, but start with offering to pay for 4.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:11 PM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:11 PM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Building on what PuppetMcSockerson suggested, if your stylist isn't open to giving you private lessons, you could ask her if she could recommend any students who have taken her year-long course who she thinks might be interested in doing this. She should be in a position to know which students learned her technique well, and might be interested in this sort of opportunity.
posted by msbubbaclees at 12:58 PM on January 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by msbubbaclees at 12:58 PM on January 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
mirileh: "Like in schroedingersgirl's example, a chef will sometimes share a loved recipe (that is usually too much work for most people anyway) with a reporter/food blogger for the publicity."
First of all, a chef sharing a recipe is not giving the paper a description of what they actually do in the restaurant to make the dish. Because it's not possible at home; there are too many differences in equipment and scale. But you're not asking for the equivalent of a recipe anyway. You're asking for the equivalent of the chef giving you a crash course in knife skills, sauteing, and seasoning (all of which require a LOT of practice) in order to make one dish. That would be an utterly unfulfilling exercise in frustration and disappointment for both of you. Instead of doing that, the chef would likely advise a couple of good basic cookbooks that cover the classic techniques and good recipes for home cooks.
Likewise, if you want to know how to cut your own hair, ask your hairdresser for recommendations a couple of good, basic resources on standard cutting techniques. If you familiarize yourself with the lingo, she'll possibly be more receptive to more informed questions from you about the techniques she's using while she's cutting your hair.
Perhaps you can frame that as asking her for advice about how you can trim up a little yourself without totally messing up the style, for when you have to go longer between haircuts than is optimal. (I've had this conversation with my hairdresser, who has, for example, forbade me to "fix" the shaggy bit above my ears, but has told me at what angle I can trim up the nape of my neck.) Because when people haphazardly snip off bits of their hair this way and that in between cuts, it can make "the usual haircut/same as last time" go less smoothly for the hairdresser and even mess up the next cut by unwittingly hacking into cowlicks, etc. See, something in it for both of you -- her job is easier, your haircut goes faster, and meanwhile you glean some insight about how her technique works.
posted by desuetude at 2:04 PM on January 30, 2014 [4 favorites]
First of all, a chef sharing a recipe is not giving the paper a description of what they actually do in the restaurant to make the dish. Because it's not possible at home; there are too many differences in equipment and scale. But you're not asking for the equivalent of a recipe anyway. You're asking for the equivalent of the chef giving you a crash course in knife skills, sauteing, and seasoning (all of which require a LOT of practice) in order to make one dish. That would be an utterly unfulfilling exercise in frustration and disappointment for both of you. Instead of doing that, the chef would likely advise a couple of good basic cookbooks that cover the classic techniques and good recipes for home cooks.
Likewise, if you want to know how to cut your own hair, ask your hairdresser for recommendations a couple of good, basic resources on standard cutting techniques. If you familiarize yourself with the lingo, she'll possibly be more receptive to more informed questions from you about the techniques she's using while she's cutting your hair.
Perhaps you can frame that as asking her for advice about how you can trim up a little yourself without totally messing up the style, for when you have to go longer between haircuts than is optimal. (I've had this conversation with my hairdresser, who has, for example, forbade me to "fix" the shaggy bit above my ears, but has told me at what angle I can trim up the nape of my neck.) Because when people haphazardly snip off bits of their hair this way and that in between cuts, it can make "the usual haircut/same as last time" go less smoothly for the hairdresser and even mess up the next cut by unwittingly hacking into cowlicks, etc. See, something in it for both of you -- her job is easier, your haircut goes faster, and meanwhile you glean some insight about how her technique works.
posted by desuetude at 2:04 PM on January 30, 2014 [4 favorites]
Sorry if I missed it, but the year-long course, is it for people learning to cut others' hair? Or people learning to cut their own hair? Because that amount of time and financial commitment sounds like it's intended for other professionals. I'm not a hairdresser but I would imagine there's a difference in technique and how it's taught. And even if there's no possibility of you suing her after you make yourself look like a weed-whacker accident, she probably wouldn't want to feel responsible for that.
I agree that offering to pay extra for her to do your hair at your home or with whatever other accommodations you need, would have a better chance.
posted by DestinationUnknown at 3:04 PM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
I agree that offering to pay extra for her to do your hair at your home or with whatever other accommodations you need, would have a better chance.
posted by DestinationUnknown at 3:04 PM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Hmm, I think you could convince her by saying something along the lines as, "Hey, I know this is extremely unorthodox, so feel free to turn me down here, but I think they way you do the [curl hair technique whatever] is awesome and I wanted to see if I could possibly pay you [x very large amount of money] to show me how to do it to my own hair one-on-one. I was thinking I'd like to learn how in around four sessions if you think that's possible." That's your angle, I think, unless you happen to work with the New York Times and offered to write a profile of her salon in the Style section or something like that.
posted by mermily at 4:17 PM on January 30, 2014
posted by mermily at 4:17 PM on January 30, 2014
It would seem that the biggest issues are 1) insulting the vast amount of work that went into her expertise, and 2) taking her 'secrets' to 'steal' customers.
If I'm understanding you correctly, you're not asking for a shortened version of the whole course, you're asking for lessons on one specific technique that you need for your hair -- in which case it's not really useful for anything that would take customers from her. So if you are willing to pay a respectful amount for that one specific technique, then it's not technically insulting to ask (although she may still be insulted).
posted by MeiraV at 8:01 AM on January 31, 2014
If I'm understanding you correctly, you're not asking for a shortened version of the whole course, you're asking for lessons on one specific technique that you need for your hair -- in which case it's not really useful for anything that would take customers from her. So if you are willing to pay a respectful amount for that one specific technique, then it's not technically insulting to ask (although she may still be insulted).
posted by MeiraV at 8:01 AM on January 31, 2014
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posted by magnetsphere at 9:23 AM on January 30, 2014 [8 favorites]