Stranger in a Strange Land
November 18, 2013 3:15 PM
I'm considering confronting my father with the threat of estrangement. What should I know before initiating this kind of "break" with family? (Snowflakes abound, but general guidance helps too!)
I have always played the mediator, empathizer, communicator, etc. in the family, and so to even be considering this is very strange. But while I've transitioned from having a lot of anger towards my father in late chlidhood and adolescence into having a very buddy-buddy, tell me about your life in infrequent phone calls thing with him, I am still deeply affected by the things that happened in my childhood, and he has shown no interest in really taking responsibility for his actions or really prioritizing anything about my life over his needs and wants.
It's especially unexpected because I've really grown to understand him as a person, his failings, what makes him uncomfortable, and I see he's a guy who never really learned to be "present," that hid whenever he could in careers and alcohol. The thing I'm having trouble forgiving, however, is that for a long part of my youth, he would take out his feelings of dejection and low confidence by creating these theatrical situations of door slamming, insults, crying, drinking. If I did't comfort him enough when he came home, he'd "punish" me by locking himself in his room. If I took my mom's side, he'd lash out against me. When I was very young he hit me at least a few times, but growing up, it was mostly this manipulative showdown bullshit.
I thought I had "processed" my feelings of anger about this. But more recently, he expressed that while he has made plans to financially support my special needs sibling, he would never take personal responsibility of taking care of her or anthing (like my mother has done for decades..) and would put her in a group home immediately -- not necessarily in itself the be-all-end-all, but his attitude shook me enough to start the process of cosidering guardianship of my sibling in case my mother suddenly died, for example. He has always supported me financially via my mother, and I feel guilty like not appreciating that enough, but he also made me essentially beg him for mental health reimbursements when he no longer had me on family insurance.. now that I am more or less completely financially independent, I can better understand that relationships in general are about give and take, and I have continued to give and give to him even when he was abusive, and he has yet to even remember my birthday, keep track of memorable things in my life, keep to a regular schedule of calling. He is quite caring and thoughtful when I catch him in a phone conversation. But again, it's like having a buddy -- the talk is good, but there are no expectations.
My dad came to visit family members here recently because of a new baby, and we were all disappointed many times over at his inability to set his own needs aside. The fact that he made the trip was a huge deal for several reasons, and I see how he, as an individual, is trying his hardest to just survive anxious situations, etc. But I did something I had never really done before -- I totally checked out emotionally towards him. I was polite, I was accomodating, and I didn't give him any of my heart. He couldn't fucking even tell. It felt like a huge relief -- like I had control, I felt independent, I knew I was prioritizing my own needs and also managing the situation for everyone else (codependent child ahoy), but also that I was doing right by me, a feeling I don't necessarily have too too frequently.
My overall mental health is at a good state. I feel increasingly confident, I feel great about my relationship to my siblings and mother, and I know I'm doing right by many people in my life. That's why it's so weird that I want to send this letter, but this is what I want: just to clearly say where I feel he has hurt me and not tried enough, why I can't maintain a relationship with somebody who doesn't earnestly try. But the thing that scares me is that he could just say "I will try!" and then try for a bit and then stop. I don't know if I really necessarily want him to be a different person -- I think I understand who he is thoroughly enough at the moment. I want to be happy and emotionally balanced for myself, though, and i think part of that puzzle is getting over this "manage the emotional needs of the person who calls you worthless and never even have that acknowledged because he is in a private world of his own self-deprecation" business and just, I don't know, cut him out? Move on?
Any thoughts you can provide about how to proceed would be very valuable. Thank you and apologies for the snowstorm.
I have always played the mediator, empathizer, communicator, etc. in the family, and so to even be considering this is very strange. But while I've transitioned from having a lot of anger towards my father in late chlidhood and adolescence into having a very buddy-buddy, tell me about your life in infrequent phone calls thing with him, I am still deeply affected by the things that happened in my childhood, and he has shown no interest in really taking responsibility for his actions or really prioritizing anything about my life over his needs and wants.
It's especially unexpected because I've really grown to understand him as a person, his failings, what makes him uncomfortable, and I see he's a guy who never really learned to be "present," that hid whenever he could in careers and alcohol. The thing I'm having trouble forgiving, however, is that for a long part of my youth, he would take out his feelings of dejection and low confidence by creating these theatrical situations of door slamming, insults, crying, drinking. If I did't comfort him enough when he came home, he'd "punish" me by locking himself in his room. If I took my mom's side, he'd lash out against me. When I was very young he hit me at least a few times, but growing up, it was mostly this manipulative showdown bullshit.
I thought I had "processed" my feelings of anger about this. But more recently, he expressed that while he has made plans to financially support my special needs sibling, he would never take personal responsibility of taking care of her or anthing (like my mother has done for decades..) and would put her in a group home immediately -- not necessarily in itself the be-all-end-all, but his attitude shook me enough to start the process of cosidering guardianship of my sibling in case my mother suddenly died, for example. He has always supported me financially via my mother, and I feel guilty like not appreciating that enough, but he also made me essentially beg him for mental health reimbursements when he no longer had me on family insurance.. now that I am more or less completely financially independent, I can better understand that relationships in general are about give and take, and I have continued to give and give to him even when he was abusive, and he has yet to even remember my birthday, keep track of memorable things in my life, keep to a regular schedule of calling. He is quite caring and thoughtful when I catch him in a phone conversation. But again, it's like having a buddy -- the talk is good, but there are no expectations.
My dad came to visit family members here recently because of a new baby, and we were all disappointed many times over at his inability to set his own needs aside. The fact that he made the trip was a huge deal for several reasons, and I see how he, as an individual, is trying his hardest to just survive anxious situations, etc. But I did something I had never really done before -- I totally checked out emotionally towards him. I was polite, I was accomodating, and I didn't give him any of my heart. He couldn't fucking even tell. It felt like a huge relief -- like I had control, I felt independent, I knew I was prioritizing my own needs and also managing the situation for everyone else (codependent child ahoy), but also that I was doing right by me, a feeling I don't necessarily have too too frequently.
My overall mental health is at a good state. I feel increasingly confident, I feel great about my relationship to my siblings and mother, and I know I'm doing right by many people in my life. That's why it's so weird that I want to send this letter, but this is what I want: just to clearly say where I feel he has hurt me and not tried enough, why I can't maintain a relationship with somebody who doesn't earnestly try. But the thing that scares me is that he could just say "I will try!" and then try for a bit and then stop. I don't know if I really necessarily want him to be a different person -- I think I understand who he is thoroughly enough at the moment. I want to be happy and emotionally balanced for myself, though, and i think part of that puzzle is getting over this "manage the emotional needs of the person who calls you worthless and never even have that acknowledged because he is in a private world of his own self-deprecation" business and just, I don't know, cut him out? Move on?
Any thoughts you can provide about how to proceed would be very valuable. Thank you and apologies for the snowstorm.
I never threatened it. When the time came that it needed to happen, I made the break. But I will say this: When it needed to happen, it needed to happen because of stuff happening at the time, not stuff that had happened a decade previously. There is nothing that you can reasonably expect him to do now that will make up for childhood pain. Even if he grovelled, it would not be authentic. Making threats about it is useless. Either stuff right now is okay and you can eventually work through the childhood pain in therapy, or stuff right now is not okay and you should cut things off. No good comes of trying to make it an ultimatum.
posted by Sequence at 3:26 PM on November 18, 2013
posted by Sequence at 3:26 PM on November 18, 2013
What do you need from him?
If you merely maintain the emotional distance that you did during the last trip, things stay calm. If you tell him you're drawing a line in the sand, you're inviting a reaction. No, you're demanding a reaction, and I think you hate his reactions.
What are you asking him for to prevent cutting him off? More attention? That he remember your birthday? That he give you money directly instead of through your mother?
I think that the thing that will make you feel most independent and most balanced is to let him be who he is without caring. Don't ask for anything from him, don't expect anything from him, and don't give him anything, particularly any emotional investment. To announce it ahead of time is to ask him for something you know he can't give. And you've said he won't notice if you just pull away without announcement, so just pull away. That way no one gets hurt.
This, by the way, is what I did with my father for the last 25 years of his life. I saw no value in confrontation or demands that he change. I just went and lived my own life and was much happier for it.
posted by janey47 at 3:26 PM on November 18, 2013
If you merely maintain the emotional distance that you did during the last trip, things stay calm. If you tell him you're drawing a line in the sand, you're inviting a reaction. No, you're demanding a reaction, and I think you hate his reactions.
What are you asking him for to prevent cutting him off? More attention? That he remember your birthday? That he give you money directly instead of through your mother?
I think that the thing that will make you feel most independent and most balanced is to let him be who he is without caring. Don't ask for anything from him, don't expect anything from him, and don't give him anything, particularly any emotional investment. To announce it ahead of time is to ask him for something you know he can't give. And you've said he won't notice if you just pull away without announcement, so just pull away. That way no one gets hurt.
This, by the way, is what I did with my father for the last 25 years of his life. I saw no value in confrontation or demands that he change. I just went and lived my own life and was much happier for it.
posted by janey47 at 3:26 PM on November 18, 2013
What outcome are you imagining from this confrontation? Do you think that doing this will actually work out way better than you're saying and it will change him and make him act like you want him to act? That's an understandable fantasy, but it is a fantasy, that's not how people work.
Why not just get on with the things you think need to be done, without creating unnecessary static that will make it harder for you to get it done?
I think you're setting yourself up for yet another disappointment. Just do what you need to do.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:28 PM on November 18, 2013
Why not just get on with the things you think need to be done, without creating unnecessary static that will make it harder for you to get it done?
I think you're setting yourself up for yet another disappointment. Just do what you need to do.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:28 PM on November 18, 2013
Write the letter and bring it to your therapist's office. Do NOT send the letter to your dad and do not threaten an estrangement. Just live your life. Sending a letter will not provide the comfort you seek.
You seem to be very aware of your dad's limitations. You can have nice telephone conversations and he promises to attempt to try harder when you air your grievances.
Is he still drinking? If so, this is more reason not to send the letter. Nothing will change and is beyond your control.
posted by Fairchild at 3:32 PM on November 18, 2013
You seem to be very aware of your dad's limitations. You can have nice telephone conversations and he promises to attempt to try harder when you air your grievances.
Is he still drinking? If so, this is more reason not to send the letter. Nothing will change and is beyond your control.
posted by Fairchild at 3:32 PM on November 18, 2013
Do what is best for you. Don't worry about what other people think about this, because whatever you do in this life, there will be someone to praise you for it and someone to drag you down.
Consider maybe doing some more of that checking out that you spoke of. It seems to work for you, and you'd still have the option of sending the letter and cutting him out later on. It would also give you a taste, somewhat, of what it would be like.
I've cut people out of my life in the past, who weren't good for me. I don't regret it, at all. I think, though, that it's not something to do lightly. What I would do in your situation is mentally, physically and emotionally distance myself from the person as much as possible, before sending the letter. Crossing the Rubicon can and should be done in some circumstances, possibly even this one. Maybe you'll feel so much better about things when you've checked out that you'll decide to go the whole hog and send the letter. That letter can't be unsent, though, so make 100% sure it's what you want.
One thought that helped me decide was "just because someone didn't love you in the way you wanted, that doesn't mean they didn't love you with everything that they had". On one hand, it's a more compassionate way of looking at the person - they were doing their best. On the other, it helped me crystallise the realisation that their best just wasn't enough for me. And that that was OK. Nobody was at fault, we were just incompatible.
I understand the desire to just tell someone off and get everything off your chest. Perhaps you don't want that, and you just want to let him know that you're having nothing more to do with him. That's kind of telling, though, that you still want a connection with this person. If you were ready to cut him off, I think you'd just do it, no muss no fuss. There wouldn't be a letter to send. That's why I suggest taking the control that you took before. I don't think you're on the banks of the Rubicon just yet.
posted by Solomon at 3:34 PM on November 18, 2013
Consider maybe doing some more of that checking out that you spoke of. It seems to work for you, and you'd still have the option of sending the letter and cutting him out later on. It would also give you a taste, somewhat, of what it would be like.
I've cut people out of my life in the past, who weren't good for me. I don't regret it, at all. I think, though, that it's not something to do lightly. What I would do in your situation is mentally, physically and emotionally distance myself from the person as much as possible, before sending the letter. Crossing the Rubicon can and should be done in some circumstances, possibly even this one. Maybe you'll feel so much better about things when you've checked out that you'll decide to go the whole hog and send the letter. That letter can't be unsent, though, so make 100% sure it's what you want.
One thought that helped me decide was "just because someone didn't love you in the way you wanted, that doesn't mean they didn't love you with everything that they had". On one hand, it's a more compassionate way of looking at the person - they were doing their best. On the other, it helped me crystallise the realisation that their best just wasn't enough for me. And that that was OK. Nobody was at fault, we were just incompatible.
I understand the desire to just tell someone off and get everything off your chest. Perhaps you don't want that, and you just want to let him know that you're having nothing more to do with him. That's kind of telling, though, that you still want a connection with this person. If you were ready to cut him off, I think you'd just do it, no muss no fuss. There wouldn't be a letter to send. That's why I suggest taking the control that you took before. I don't think you're on the banks of the Rubicon just yet.
posted by Solomon at 3:34 PM on November 18, 2013
I am no longer in touch with my biological parents. And I have been I informed by someone I love very much (a family member) that she will 'never contact (me) again.'
I don't presume to know what effect she hoped that proclamation wold have, but it DID change the way I live my life. I no longer tolerate people treating me the way she did. I feel vindicated and relieved after many years of tense and accusatory insistence from her that I ought to live a particular life. I was constantly exhausted knowing that I would never be good enough. This is not to say that she could do nothing to repair this rift, but her portrayal of me as a terrible person does not incline me to think it will be easy for me to paper over that outburst.
I relate this anecdote to illustrate that if your father feels aggrieved by your behavior (whether his feelings are based in reality or not), he may see disconnection as a positive thing. And it does sound like he struggles to behave appropriately toward you.
I guess I'm trying to say that just quietly letting go might be healthier for you, now and long term. Please discuss it with your therapist before you send any letter. And then hold onto the letter until the next appointment.
posted by bilabial at 3:38 PM on November 18, 2013
I don't presume to know what effect she hoped that proclamation wold have, but it DID change the way I live my life. I no longer tolerate people treating me the way she did. I feel vindicated and relieved after many years of tense and accusatory insistence from her that I ought to live a particular life. I was constantly exhausted knowing that I would never be good enough. This is not to say that she could do nothing to repair this rift, but her portrayal of me as a terrible person does not incline me to think it will be easy for me to paper over that outburst.
I relate this anecdote to illustrate that if your father feels aggrieved by your behavior (whether his feelings are based in reality or not), he may see disconnection as a positive thing. And it does sound like he struggles to behave appropriately toward you.
I guess I'm trying to say that just quietly letting go might be healthier for you, now and long term. Please discuss it with your therapist before you send any letter. And then hold onto the letter until the next appointment.
posted by bilabial at 3:38 PM on November 18, 2013
Sending him the letter seems more like your version of his attention-seeking showdowns than anything that's likely to bring closure, comfort, or change.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:42 PM on November 18, 2013
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:42 PM on November 18, 2013
The thing is "I'll try" is a good answer. No one can guarantee that they'll do any better.
That doesn't mean that you need to keep any relationship with your father. However, a confrontation can't yield anything more significant than that he'll try. Before you set up that confrontation think about backing away quietly. Accomplishes the same distance and doesn't play into a dynamic of drama.
posted by 26.2 at 3:43 PM on November 18, 2013
That doesn't mean that you need to keep any relationship with your father. However, a confrontation can't yield anything more significant than that he'll try. Before you set up that confrontation think about backing away quietly. Accomplishes the same distance and doesn't play into a dynamic of drama.
posted by 26.2 at 3:43 PM on November 18, 2013
It seems like you need counseling. Make a break if you think you need to, but I don't really see what your dad is doing right now to aggrieve you so much. So, he prioritized his needs on a recent trip. That's his right. He said he would financially support your special needs sibling but not do the actual hands-on work of caring for her; once again, that's fine, that's what care facilities are for.
It kind of seems like you have a "hero complex" and are overly concerned with "who is doing right by" the family. Your preoccupation with this seems like an unhealthy form of score keeping and tallying up of accounts. It seems like you're too focused on what a good guy you are and weirdly interested in punishing your dad. This suggests strongly that you have issues you have not in fact "processed."
posted by jayder at 3:44 PM on November 18, 2013
It kind of seems like you have a "hero complex" and are overly concerned with "who is doing right by" the family. Your preoccupation with this seems like an unhealthy form of score keeping and tallying up of accounts. It seems like you're too focused on what a good guy you are and weirdly interested in punishing your dad. This suggests strongly that you have issues you have not in fact "processed."
posted by jayder at 3:44 PM on November 18, 2013
I can't tell from reading this whether your father is, in addition to being a bad dad, an alcoholic or just someone who drinks. I had an alcoholic parent and my advice is specific to that. Like, I don't think you can say that an alcoholic does what they do because they "don't care" I think it's even deeper than that. More like "can't care" but this is just nitpicking really, just mentioning it in case it's helpful.
1. Determine if what you need/want is really no contact or if better boundaries would be okay with you. I decided I'd rather continue to have a relationship with my dad but it was absolutely on my terms and they were no longer negotiable. I told my dad what those terms were (I leave when the drinking starts, I leave when the shouting starts, I don't clean up after you, I am not your wife, I plan my holidays on my own) but they weren't up for discussion.
2. Realistically think about how you will have a relationship with your mother/sister and not him. This will be your problem to puzzle out.
3. Realize that no matter what sort of thing you want to get from him, it's just wanting something from him and setting you up for the power imbalance nonsense again. I would do the "write it down and not send it" routine if it were me. Because sending it and expecting to get a reaction will just be one more disappointment, most likely. Either it will be some sort of RARAR drama, or it will be the "no answer is its own sort of answer" and both are bad.
4. Agree with people upthread: you can't get him to make up for childhood nonsense. It is okay to decide if the dad you have now is not someone you want to continue to interact with though, anyhow. The "I'll try!" is strong with drunks and it's poignant and pitiful. There's no reason to feel that you can give him an ultimatum and he'd do anything different. There's also no reason to believe that he might not decide to do something after given an ultimatum. You just don't know.
My only major advice is to keep your sister/mom out of it. They should not have to side with one or the other of you unless you have a beef with them also. It's possible this may result in a removal of support from your parents and I'd at least make sure you've thought about that in advance before proceeding with your plan.
I have an arms length relationship with my mom and my dad the alcoholic died a few years ago. It actually works pretty well for me for the most part, but it's not an easy road. I wish you the best.
posted by jessamyn at 4:00 PM on November 18, 2013
1. Determine if what you need/want is really no contact or if better boundaries would be okay with you. I decided I'd rather continue to have a relationship with my dad but it was absolutely on my terms and they were no longer negotiable. I told my dad what those terms were (I leave when the drinking starts, I leave when the shouting starts, I don't clean up after you, I am not your wife, I plan my holidays on my own) but they weren't up for discussion.
2. Realistically think about how you will have a relationship with your mother/sister and not him. This will be your problem to puzzle out.
3. Realize that no matter what sort of thing you want to get from him, it's just wanting something from him and setting you up for the power imbalance nonsense again. I would do the "write it down and not send it" routine if it were me. Because sending it and expecting to get a reaction will just be one more disappointment, most likely. Either it will be some sort of RARAR drama, or it will be the "no answer is its own sort of answer" and both are bad.
4. Agree with people upthread: you can't get him to make up for childhood nonsense. It is okay to decide if the dad you have now is not someone you want to continue to interact with though, anyhow. The "I'll try!" is strong with drunks and it's poignant and pitiful. There's no reason to feel that you can give him an ultimatum and he'd do anything different. There's also no reason to believe that he might not decide to do something after given an ultimatum. You just don't know.
My only major advice is to keep your sister/mom out of it. They should not have to side with one or the other of you unless you have a beef with them also. It's possible this may result in a removal of support from your parents and I'd at least make sure you've thought about that in advance before proceeding with your plan.
I have an arms length relationship with my mom and my dad the alcoholic died a few years ago. It actually works pretty well for me for the most part, but it's not an easy road. I wish you the best.
posted by jessamyn at 4:00 PM on November 18, 2013
I thought I had "processed" my feelings of anger about this. But more recently, he expressed that while he has made plans to financially support my special needs sibling, he would never take personal responsibility of taking care of her or anthing (like my mother has done for decades..) and would put her in a group home immediately -- not necessarily in itself the be-all-end-all, but his attitude shook me enough to start the process of cosidering guardianship of my sibling in case my mother suddenly died, for example.
It sounds like for whatever reason, you were okay with things until this event. I'd like to suggest another way to deal with this aspect.
It sounds like your father is thinking about the future welfare of your sister, although it may not be the same interpretation that you have as to what would be the best thing to do in the future. If he still behaves the same way now that he did as when you were a child (with your sister), then it makes sense that immediately caring for your sister may not be best. Or maybe he feels a group home would be the best place. Part of what does matter here is that he is trying to do what is best for her well being in the future. It sounds like you also feel strongly as to what would be the best environment for your sister int he future, which is also good.
So instead of going to war with your father, why not work towards a solution, at least in regards to your sister? If communication is best via your mother, do that. But if you feel your home environment is best and you want to be her guardian in the future, then state this. The financial trust can be set up in your sister's name with you as the executor, and then everyone's wishes and desires would be fulfilled. Your sister would be taken care of and financial needs would be met. But in a way, I think it is better that your father has stated what he intends to do now. It gives you time to work on and arrange these things. If need be, discuss this with your therapist first, and make this part work.
Then you can do the cutoff communication with your father etc, if that is what you want to do.But at least try to have everything arranged to take care of your sister first.
This last part, it may not really help at all. I am on the other side of not having a person in my life anymore for something similar to this reason: "person who calls you worthless"- for the formative years of your life.
Before I came to the decision of "I can't keep the facade of a rapport" anymore, I thought about it the way Solomon describes. People usually are doing their best, even if it leaves scars and unhappiness along the way. So when I let go and pulled the lever, there was not intense emotions. For that reasons, there never were or never will be letters sent, etc. Because the conclusion is: The best that you are now is not good enough. Why torture another person with that? So in the end, if these are your limits, then make your own decision, but a sent letter doesn't do anything IMO.
Also, if you grew up with those comments, those sort of voices are now in your head, so it doesn't change anything. It just is.
posted by Wolfster at 4:44 PM on November 18, 2013
It sounds like for whatever reason, you were okay with things until this event. I'd like to suggest another way to deal with this aspect.
It sounds like your father is thinking about the future welfare of your sister, although it may not be the same interpretation that you have as to what would be the best thing to do in the future. If he still behaves the same way now that he did as when you were a child (with your sister), then it makes sense that immediately caring for your sister may not be best. Or maybe he feels a group home would be the best place. Part of what does matter here is that he is trying to do what is best for her well being in the future. It sounds like you also feel strongly as to what would be the best environment for your sister int he future, which is also good.
So instead of going to war with your father, why not work towards a solution, at least in regards to your sister? If communication is best via your mother, do that. But if you feel your home environment is best and you want to be her guardian in the future, then state this. The financial trust can be set up in your sister's name with you as the executor, and then everyone's wishes and desires would be fulfilled. Your sister would be taken care of and financial needs would be met. But in a way, I think it is better that your father has stated what he intends to do now. It gives you time to work on and arrange these things. If need be, discuss this with your therapist first, and make this part work.
Then you can do the cutoff communication with your father etc, if that is what you want to do.But at least try to have everything arranged to take care of your sister first.
This last part, it may not really help at all. I am on the other side of not having a person in my life anymore for something similar to this reason: "person who calls you worthless"- for the formative years of your life.
Before I came to the decision of "I can't keep the facade of a rapport" anymore, I thought about it the way Solomon describes. People usually are doing their best, even if it leaves scars and unhappiness along the way. So when I let go and pulled the lever, there was not intense emotions. For that reasons, there never were or never will be letters sent, etc. Because the conclusion is: The best that you are now is not good enough. Why torture another person with that? So in the end, if these are your limits, then make your own decision, but a sent letter doesn't do anything IMO.
Also, if you grew up with those comments, those sort of voices are now in your head, so it doesn't change anything. It just is.
posted by Wolfster at 4:44 PM on November 18, 2013
FYI, you can be co-guardian to a sibling with special needs. So you might want to talk to your Mom about that, it's a simple legal document.
As far as your dad, yeah, that sort of thing is not going to play out well. Letter writing, confrontation. I've found it's best to work out those things among supportive people... friends, spouse, therapist, journal writing.
You don't have to let the things that happened in your youth define you, and you don't have to focus on him indefinitely. What I like to do is allow myself to dwell on it for a set period of time, a week tops, then put it in a bubble and let it float away and pop! It's gone. Some people write letters and burn them, etc.
Case in point: my mom always told me not to dye my hair blonde. The year after she died, I dyed the heck out of my hair. It was BLONDE, let me tell you. Ha! So very blonde. Blondey blonde.
Then I realized I had overdone it and fried my hair and it took 18 months to grow out enough to cut the fried stuff off. So go me! For letting some stupid angry I told you so thing to fug up my hair. On top of my head. Was it worth it? I'll let you decide.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 5:03 PM on November 18, 2013
As far as your dad, yeah, that sort of thing is not going to play out well. Letter writing, confrontation. I've found it's best to work out those things among supportive people... friends, spouse, therapist, journal writing.
You don't have to let the things that happened in your youth define you, and you don't have to focus on him indefinitely. What I like to do is allow myself to dwell on it for a set period of time, a week tops, then put it in a bubble and let it float away and pop! It's gone. Some people write letters and burn them, etc.
Case in point: my mom always told me not to dye my hair blonde. The year after she died, I dyed the heck out of my hair. It was BLONDE, let me tell you. Ha! So very blonde. Blondey blonde.
Then I realized I had overdone it and fried my hair and it took 18 months to grow out enough to cut the fried stuff off. So go me! For letting some stupid angry I told you so thing to fug up my hair. On top of my head. Was it worth it? I'll let you decide.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 5:03 PM on November 18, 2013
I actually think it's perfectly all right to ditch your dad now. It might be that you're safe and secure enough now that you can begin acknowledging the anger, needs, and fears of the child you were -- which is good because clearly your dad can't be and wasn't the adult that child needed.
I'd write the letter, talk it through in therapy, and see where you go from there.
I would not send the letter to him, because if you announce you're going no contact it's like a massive drama-bomb. Just disappear. Most of the time, the toxic person you're cutting out won't notice because they're all caught up in their toxicity.
posted by spunweb at 7:52 PM on November 18, 2013
I'd write the letter, talk it through in therapy, and see where you go from there.
I would not send the letter to him, because if you announce you're going no contact it's like a massive drama-bomb. Just disappear. Most of the time, the toxic person you're cutting out won't notice because they're all caught up in their toxicity.
posted by spunweb at 7:52 PM on November 18, 2013
I'm wondering, if he is even capable of being better? I wonder what his own childhood was like.
This is what I am thinking. If he were doing real damage to you NOW, heck yes, do what you need to be safe.
But I am thinking that you would be hurting someone who maybe does not have the capacity to understand why you would be taking the action.
(I say this because of what I observed between my husband and his own father, now deceased. He was a very very very VERY poor father in very many ways, and the sad truth is that we all truly believe he was doing the best he could. Which in itself is pretty darn tragic.)
If you feel you need to back away, or be more distant, there is nothing wrong with that, but I wouldn't try to make a grand gesture. I think it would make you more upset in the long run. Just my opinion.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 8:00 PM on November 18, 2013
This is what I am thinking. If he were doing real damage to you NOW, heck yes, do what you need to be safe.
But I am thinking that you would be hurting someone who maybe does not have the capacity to understand why you would be taking the action.
(I say this because of what I observed between my husband and his own father, now deceased. He was a very very very VERY poor father in very many ways, and the sad truth is that we all truly believe he was doing the best he could. Which in itself is pretty darn tragic.)
If you feel you need to back away, or be more distant, there is nothing wrong with that, but I wouldn't try to make a grand gesture. I think it would make you more upset in the long run. Just my opinion.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 8:00 PM on November 18, 2013
But yes, write the letter. Just don't send it.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 8:01 PM on November 18, 2013
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 8:01 PM on November 18, 2013
Try to isolate the current behavior that is unacceptable to you, or whether the abuse in the past is affecting you to an extent that no-contact is beneficial to your health.
If it's not either of those things, it's punishing a person for their past mistakes.
I have cut off family members because a) current behavior and b) the combined effect of the current behavior and memories of past behaviors completely upend me, emotionally -- I because very angry and (shamefully) verbally abusive.
Because I need to protect my mental health and not be an asshole, I have made the decision to leave my family. Was there fallout? Oh yes there was.
Now, here's the other thing: your father has a relationship with your special needs sibling. Here is what happened to me and my special needs sibling: once I cut contact with other members of the family, it became difficult and then impossible for me to have a relationship with my special needs sibling, and most importantly, I do not have a seat at the table when it comes to questions of his care.
So I would consider those things before you decide to become estranged. It really is the nuclear option, and while sometimes it is the best option, it does have fallout.
posted by angrycat at 6:06 AM on November 19, 2013
If it's not either of those things, it's punishing a person for their past mistakes.
I have cut off family members because a) current behavior and b) the combined effect of the current behavior and memories of past behaviors completely upend me, emotionally -- I because very angry and (shamefully) verbally abusive.
Because I need to protect my mental health and not be an asshole, I have made the decision to leave my family. Was there fallout? Oh yes there was.
Now, here's the other thing: your father has a relationship with your special needs sibling. Here is what happened to me and my special needs sibling: once I cut contact with other members of the family, it became difficult and then impossible for me to have a relationship with my special needs sibling, and most importantly, I do not have a seat at the table when it comes to questions of his care.
So I would consider those things before you decide to become estranged. It really is the nuclear option, and while sometimes it is the best option, it does have fallout.
posted by angrycat at 6:06 AM on November 19, 2013
Please please please read Harriet Lerner. A lot of what she writes about is negotiating complicated relationships, where there is a lot of baggage, a lot of history, a lot of patterns, and also plenty of volatility, vulnerability, and intensity.
She writes what a lot of people have said above, that confrontation tends to reinforce old patterns, and that real change can usually only be achieved with real deliberation and slowness. The bulk of the work falls on the person who really wants the change, which of course isn't fair, but that's life.
But it's not only about the change in the relationship, which is somewhat out of your control, but the change in your orientation towards the relationship, so that you can approach it with more power and less intensity, which is different from less love.
The Dance of Connection or the Dance of Intimacy would both be good places to start.
She is very sensible.
posted by Salamandrous at 3:34 PM on November 19, 2013
She writes what a lot of people have said above, that confrontation tends to reinforce old patterns, and that real change can usually only be achieved with real deliberation and slowness. The bulk of the work falls on the person who really wants the change, which of course isn't fair, but that's life.
But it's not only about the change in the relationship, which is somewhat out of your control, but the change in your orientation towards the relationship, so that you can approach it with more power and less intensity, which is different from less love.
The Dance of Connection or the Dance of Intimacy would both be good places to start.
She is very sensible.
posted by Salamandrous at 3:34 PM on November 19, 2013
he has shown no interest in really taking responsibility for his actions or really prioritizing anything about my life over his needs and wants.
He's not going to. If you give him ultimatums and write letters and pour your heart out, and he's still not going to. It honestly sounds to me like he can't, and he knows it.
He has always supported me financially via my mother, and I feel guilty like not appreciating that enough [...]
he expressed that while he has made plans to financially support my special needs sibling, he would never take personal responsibility of taking care of her or anything (like my mother has done for decades..) and would put her in a group home immediately [...]
The fact that he made the trip was a huge deal for several reasons, and I see how he, as an individual, is trying his hardest to just survive anxious situations, etc.
he has yet to even remember my birthday, keep track of memorable things in my life, keep to a regular schedule of calling. He is quite caring and thoughtful when I catch him in a phone conversation. But again, it's like having a buddy -- the talk is good, but there are no expectations.
This is it, this is what he has to give: some financial support, and occasional friendly contact. Now that you're not receiving his financial support anymore, all he's got to give you is occasional friendly contact.
It doesn't matter if you give him more than occasional friendly contact or not (by letter or over the phone or in person), he can't give more than that back to you.
That's why I think you shouldn't send the letter.
I want to be happy and emotionally balanced for myself, though, and i think part of that puzzle is getting over this "manage the emotional needs of the person who calls you worthless and never even have that acknowledged because he is in a private world of his own self-deprecation" business and just, I don't know, cut him out? Move on?
You have to accept his limitations. Accept what he's got to give and let go of the hope of ever getting more.
Acceptance is tough. Denial, anger, bargaining, sadness -- you'll probably have to go through the whole grief process along the way to really accepting that this is your father, this is your relationship with your father, this is the life and family you've got.
But I think you have to accept who your father is (and who he isn't) and what he's capable of (and what he isn't), in order to make peace with the things you mention about your childhood and circumstances that are eating at you.
It felt like a huge relief -- like I had control, I felt independent, I knew I was prioritizing my own needs and also managing the situation for everyone else (codependent child ahoy), but also that I was doing right by me, a feeling I don't necessarily have too too frequently.
I can relate to the "manage the emotional needs" part, and I guess that probably makes me codependent, too, so take this for what it's worth, but this is how I approach the problem in my life: You're trying to manage your father's emotional needs because it creates the illusion that his emotions aren't out of control (that *you* are in control of them). Your father probably likes that illusion because it absolves him of responsibility and you probably like that illusion because his emotions (and actions) are scary. But that control is just a fantasy that you both try to keep up, and there are always going to be gaping holes in the fabric of that fantasy where the chaotic reality shows through. Your father glosses over those holes with booze and probably a whole web of other illusions he devotes himself to maintaining. But you can't gloss over those holes anymore, so what do you do?
You have to just give up the illusion completely. You can't control your father's emotions, hell, you can't even "control" your *own* emotions and behavior sometimes. Your father can slam doors, hit, yell, flake out, refuse to answer his phone, disappear into work, forget everything you tell him, and drink himself stupid, and you can't control him or his behavior or his emotions. That goes for everybody, everybody will just feel and do all kinds of things and you can't control them. You've got to accept that, too.
That's incredibly frightening and difficult. It's especially difficult with someone who is desperate to maintain the illusion that you're in control, and even more difficult when that person knows you well enough to manipulate you (consciously or not) into playing along that you're in control before you even know it, and even *more* difficult when you feel a genuine sense of love and duty to that person. I haven't gotten there yet, to be honest. But I think being able to let go of that illusion of control is a place worth getting to, because it'll stop some of the frustration, tension and guilt that it sounds like you're feeling over your father's limitations and failures. And let's face it, that "control" is just a mind game you're playing anyway, it doesn't make the reality any better.
If you can relate to any of that...I wish I could give you a better, more specific answer on how to go beyond just recognizing the problem and get to actually solving it, but I'm not there myself.
posted by rue72 at 3:36 PM on November 19, 2013
He's not going to. If you give him ultimatums and write letters and pour your heart out, and he's still not going to. It honestly sounds to me like he can't, and he knows it.
He has always supported me financially via my mother, and I feel guilty like not appreciating that enough [...]
he expressed that while he has made plans to financially support my special needs sibling, he would never take personal responsibility of taking care of her or anything (like my mother has done for decades..) and would put her in a group home immediately [...]
The fact that he made the trip was a huge deal for several reasons, and I see how he, as an individual, is trying his hardest to just survive anxious situations, etc.
he has yet to even remember my birthday, keep track of memorable things in my life, keep to a regular schedule of calling. He is quite caring and thoughtful when I catch him in a phone conversation. But again, it's like having a buddy -- the talk is good, but there are no expectations.
This is it, this is what he has to give: some financial support, and occasional friendly contact. Now that you're not receiving his financial support anymore, all he's got to give you is occasional friendly contact.
It doesn't matter if you give him more than occasional friendly contact or not (by letter or over the phone or in person), he can't give more than that back to you.
That's why I think you shouldn't send the letter.
I want to be happy and emotionally balanced for myself, though, and i think part of that puzzle is getting over this "manage the emotional needs of the person who calls you worthless and never even have that acknowledged because he is in a private world of his own self-deprecation" business and just, I don't know, cut him out? Move on?
You have to accept his limitations. Accept what he's got to give and let go of the hope of ever getting more.
Acceptance is tough. Denial, anger, bargaining, sadness -- you'll probably have to go through the whole grief process along the way to really accepting that this is your father, this is your relationship with your father, this is the life and family you've got.
But I think you have to accept who your father is (and who he isn't) and what he's capable of (and what he isn't), in order to make peace with the things you mention about your childhood and circumstances that are eating at you.
It felt like a huge relief -- like I had control, I felt independent, I knew I was prioritizing my own needs and also managing the situation for everyone else (codependent child ahoy), but also that I was doing right by me, a feeling I don't necessarily have too too frequently.
I can relate to the "manage the emotional needs" part, and I guess that probably makes me codependent, too, so take this for what it's worth, but this is how I approach the problem in my life: You're trying to manage your father's emotional needs because it creates the illusion that his emotions aren't out of control (that *you* are in control of them). Your father probably likes that illusion because it absolves him of responsibility and you probably like that illusion because his emotions (and actions) are scary. But that control is just a fantasy that you both try to keep up, and there are always going to be gaping holes in the fabric of that fantasy where the chaotic reality shows through. Your father glosses over those holes with booze and probably a whole web of other illusions he devotes himself to maintaining. But you can't gloss over those holes anymore, so what do you do?
You have to just give up the illusion completely. You can't control your father's emotions, hell, you can't even "control" your *own* emotions and behavior sometimes. Your father can slam doors, hit, yell, flake out, refuse to answer his phone, disappear into work, forget everything you tell him, and drink himself stupid, and you can't control him or his behavior or his emotions. That goes for everybody, everybody will just feel and do all kinds of things and you can't control them. You've got to accept that, too.
That's incredibly frightening and difficult. It's especially difficult with someone who is desperate to maintain the illusion that you're in control, and even more difficult when that person knows you well enough to manipulate you (consciously or not) into playing along that you're in control before you even know it, and even *more* difficult when you feel a genuine sense of love and duty to that person. I haven't gotten there yet, to be honest. But I think being able to let go of that illusion of control is a place worth getting to, because it'll stop some of the frustration, tension and guilt that it sounds like you're feeling over your father's limitations and failures. And let's face it, that "control" is just a mind game you're playing anyway, it doesn't make the reality any better.
If you can relate to any of that...I wish I could give you a better, more specific answer on how to go beyond just recognizing the problem and get to actually solving it, but I'm not there myself.
posted by rue72 at 3:36 PM on November 19, 2013
From the OP:
I appreciate the wisdom, tough love, frankness, and life experience you've all shared with me here. I just wanted to follow up with some clarifications and further reflections, so that this will be helpful to anybody else discovering it in the future.posted by jessamyn at 5:24 PM on November 20, 2013
First off, it was very helpful to hear responses that reaffirmed what I suspected -- that even though I understand my dad to be a person with limitations, I really have to accept that, going forward, he's going to be who he is, and I can't change that. Though what I wrote sounded like a desire for an unnecessary and regressive "punishment" to some of you, I think I was being a little extreme because I have been realizing for the first time the finitude of that understanding. There's no applause or higher moral level to be reached by not being bitter and continuing to be caring to somebody who's wronged you in the past, only a certain decency in being loving, and I need to just let myself finish processing my anger and move on.
To give some context as to why this particular moment (the comment about my sister) was so triggering -- when I was younger, like a middle schooler, I had to step up and "be the adult" many times when my dad was too drunk to help my mom pick up my sister from hospitals and boarding schools. I became very involved in that management of her care, and him very absent, and while I understand his emotional limitations insofar as they affect my ability to receive paternal emotional support, I am more protective of my sister and so want to make clear going forward that she isn't unduly limited. That being said, I think he's doing 95% of things right regarding her these days, and it sounds like more of an offhand and perhaps quite reasonable comment (he's an older guy, he's not going to be able to be effective as a live-in caretaker, I totally get it!) But that's where I was coming from.
So, yes I'm in therapy, yes my dad was an alcoholic and still is one but not in an actively damaging way, no I'm not going to send the letter, but yes I'm going to write it and think about it and talk it out, and I'm going to keep concentrating on developing the confidence to give what I reasonably can, expect to get what I can reasonably get and know what is impossible, and enjoy being an independent adult not beholden to childhood dynamics at some point in time (most of the time I do alright!) And in the final analysis, I appreciate what y'all have said for laying out the various discourses and problematics so I can map them out (no I'm not a logic nerd...) but I see how it's a path I have to walk for myself in the end. So thanks for a lil guidance.
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posted by Joh at 3:23 PM on November 18, 2013