How high do backgammon stakes get?
November 16, 2013 6:20 AM Subscribe
In my limited experience, the doubling cube gets to 2 frequently, 4 rarely, and 8 not at all. Among high-level players (for some definition of high-level), how many doubles have ever occurred in a single game? Also, given that the stake of "1" occurs (at least briefly) in every game and the stake of "64" almost never, why is the unit space on the die labeled "64"?
So I play backgammon mostly informally, and with middling experience, but it seems that a significant enough advantage to one player to make doubling worthwhile usually occurs once, maybe twice per game. I was curious as to how often --- or indeed, whether at all --- the higher stakes get used. Obviously, I'd like to limit my inquiry to some sort of concept of "experienced players playing seriously", since inexperienced or poor players, or players just having fun, may double and redouble for she sheer hell of it. Is there data out there, or an analysis of data?
I can imagine at least one double coming from a match-point differential (e.g. the Crawford-rule-addressed tactic of doubling instantly on your opponent's match point, or redoubling immediately when your opponent is two points shy of the match, and so forth), but that'd only get a single level of doubling out of the way.
So I play backgammon mostly informally, and with middling experience, but it seems that a significant enough advantage to one player to make doubling worthwhile usually occurs once, maybe twice per game. I was curious as to how often --- or indeed, whether at all --- the higher stakes get used. Obviously, I'd like to limit my inquiry to some sort of concept of "experienced players playing seriously", since inexperienced or poor players, or players just having fun, may double and redouble for she sheer hell of it. Is there data out there, or an analysis of data?
I can imagine at least one double coming from a match-point differential (e.g. the Crawford-rule-addressed tactic of doubling instantly on your opponent's match point, or redoubling immediately when your opponent is two points shy of the match, and so forth), but that'd only get a single level of doubling out of the way.
Doubling was the American innovation that lead to backgammon's resurgence. Originally they used matches to track doubles, but some later cubes did exist that started at 1. Most start at 2, since 1 is the status quo, and if you're going to be separating idiotic gamblers from their money, you may as well use all six sides of the cube.
posted by zamboni at 7:15 AM on November 16, 2013
posted by zamboni at 7:15 AM on November 16, 2013
My father was a gambling addict and I have clear childhood memoirs of him paying for $100 a point and the dice getting to 64, of course he was also an alcoholic and not a successful gambler. So I imagine it gets doubled a lot for all the same reasons people gamble and logic has little to do with it
posted by wwax at 7:49 AM on November 16, 2013
posted by wwax at 7:49 AM on November 16, 2013
Most games played between world class players are not recorded so the data does not really exist. You can have one of the top bots (Gnubg or Extreme Gammon) play against itself like a million times and look at those results and while the bots generally make the best plays this might not accurately reflect how world class human players play.
There are two game-type situations to consider. All tournaments use "match play" which means the players play to a certain number of points. Something like 7 points in early rounds or small tournaments up to 23 points in the finals of the big tourneys. Obviously this limits the action to a 16-cube at the highest level but if the average match length in tournaments is 11 points then the cube is limited to an 8.
So here is my impression of what happens in match play. A great majority of games where turning the cube is allowed or makes sense (ie, not the Crawford game or some match score which changes the take points radically) a cube will be offered. Recubes are rare, maybe something like 10% of all games (ignoring trivial cubes/recubes when there is only one roll left and the game is gin). Another recube (to 8) will happen in those cases like 10% of the time as well. So overall the odds of reaching a 8 cube in tournament play might be 1%. I'm not sure how much I like these numbers, but the point is that cubes are common, recubes not-so-common, re-recubes rare.
In "money play" (where players are not playing to a certain score) things can get wild. Professional bacgammon players of the world-class level probably won't let the cube get too high but the fact that there is not a physical limit on how high the cube can go means that the average will be higher. But still, getting past an 8-cube has to be rare-ish.
Professional gamblers, on the other hand, might be more inclined to (re) double early and often to put pressure on the opponent ("too rich for my blood!") so I wouldn't be surprised if many of their games reach 16,32, or even 64 cubes.
posted by bfootdav at 9:24 AM on November 16, 2013 [1 favorite]
There are two game-type situations to consider. All tournaments use "match play" which means the players play to a certain number of points. Something like 7 points in early rounds or small tournaments up to 23 points in the finals of the big tourneys. Obviously this limits the action to a 16-cube at the highest level but if the average match length in tournaments is 11 points then the cube is limited to an 8.
So here is my impression of what happens in match play. A great majority of games where turning the cube is allowed or makes sense (ie, not the Crawford game or some match score which changes the take points radically) a cube will be offered. Recubes are rare, maybe something like 10% of all games (ignoring trivial cubes/recubes when there is only one roll left and the game is gin). Another recube (to 8) will happen in those cases like 10% of the time as well. So overall the odds of reaching a 8 cube in tournament play might be 1%. I'm not sure how much I like these numbers, but the point is that cubes are common, recubes not-so-common, re-recubes rare.
In "money play" (where players are not playing to a certain score) things can get wild. Professional bacgammon players of the world-class level probably won't let the cube get too high but the fact that there is not a physical limit on how high the cube can go means that the average will be higher. But still, getting past an 8-cube has to be rare-ish.
Professional gamblers, on the other hand, might be more inclined to (re) double early and often to put pressure on the opponent ("too rich for my blood!") so I wouldn't be surprised if many of their games reach 16,32, or even 64 cubes.
posted by bfootdav at 9:24 AM on November 16, 2013 [1 favorite]
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Because 1 is the base state, so you don't need an indicator that a game is worth 1.
posted by Etrigan at 7:11 AM on November 16, 2013 [1 favorite]