Am I crazy or is he?
October 11, 2013 12:44 PM Subscribe
My husband's behavior towards my children worries me by episodes (frightening nastiness superseded within minutes by normal, loving, even patient fatherly behavior). I think I've gotten used to a little too much. The kids love him and vie for his attention, but one day after I'd shouted at him to cut it out during one of his displays one of them said to me "can you please keep him away from me when he's like that?". She's 5.
I think that if I told him that I want a divorce he would be genuinely hurt, astounded, incredulous, etc., and would probably suggest all sorts of ways I could amend my own behavior to correct the situation. He did that last time I told him I'd had it, and a hurt, puzzled "are you MAD at me?" is something I hear every time I show a shortening of patience around him.
What's driving me crazy is that he says, and believes it himself, that he is in love with me, that we're happily married, and the kids are great. I want to raise my kids in some kind of peace; is there any hope?
I think you need to give up the idea that you can convince him that abusing your children is wrong.
I am not suggesting divorce, but I do suggest separate households until and unless he stops being like that.
posted by tel3path at 12:47 PM on October 11, 2013 [10 favorites]
I am not suggesting divorce, but I do suggest separate households until and unless he stops being like that.
posted by tel3path at 12:47 PM on October 11, 2013 [10 favorites]
Well, you're not really telling us a whole lot here.
Are the kids yours and his, or yours with a different partner?
Have you discussed his behavior specifically with him? "The kids tell me they are afraid of you when you are nasty to them. For example, when you said Alicia looked like a jerk in her new dress. I need you to keep those comments to yourself."
What concerns me is that you have brought this up to him before and you say that he tries to turn it back around on you. Suggesting that his feelings were hurt, but that YOU needed to make changes.
Have you been to couples counseling? If not, why not? You may need to learn to communicate better with each other, or at the very least, you need to work out a way to dissolve your marriage such that you're not hurting the kids.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 12:51 PM on October 11, 2013 [10 favorites]
Are the kids yours and his, or yours with a different partner?
Have you discussed his behavior specifically with him? "The kids tell me they are afraid of you when you are nasty to them. For example, when you said Alicia looked like a jerk in her new dress. I need you to keep those comments to yourself."
What concerns me is that you have brought this up to him before and you say that he tries to turn it back around on you. Suggesting that his feelings were hurt, but that YOU needed to make changes.
Have you been to couples counseling? If not, why not? You may need to learn to communicate better with each other, or at the very least, you need to work out a way to dissolve your marriage such that you're not hurting the kids.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 12:51 PM on October 11, 2013 [10 favorites]
You used the word "abuse" in both of your tags but nowhere in your question, which leads me to believe his behavior is worse than you describe. A five-year-old being frightened of her father, enough to recognize that there are times when he is "like that," is not acceptable. Does he know his child is scared of him?
posted by jbickers at 12:52 PM on October 11, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by jbickers at 12:52 PM on October 11, 2013 [6 favorites]
Your husband needs anger management classes. As soon as he switches into an abusive mode, you need to intervene immediately and remove the kids from his presence. Then you tell him, "That behavior, speech, etc is unacceptable and you will never do it again to our children or anybody else. If you do this again, I will take the kids and leave. You need to fix this NOW."
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 12:53 PM on October 11, 2013 [10 favorites]
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 12:53 PM on October 11, 2013 [10 favorites]
This sounds like a difficult situation for you. I don't know if you should DTMFA, or try working with him, or what. But keep him the hell away from your kids until he learns to control his behavior.
posted by disconnect at 12:53 PM on October 11, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by disconnect at 12:53 PM on October 11, 2013 [3 favorites]
I think you should sit down with him and talk about your serious concerns (preferably not immediately after one of these episodes) rather than suggesting the D word if this is the only thing making you consider a divorce. My dad's temper got a little carried away sometimes when I was younger, and it occasionally frightened my siblings and I. My mom would tell him to cut it out in no uncertain terms, and eventually he got it under control. I don't know the specifics of it, but I have had a great relationship with him throughout my childhood and adulthood despite remembering this from the younger years, and I would just suggest that if your husband is actually dedicated to being a good father -- and not just dedicated to not making you angry -- it can be a fixable problem in some cases.
posted by likeatoaster at 12:57 PM on October 11, 2013 [10 favorites]
posted by likeatoaster at 12:57 PM on October 11, 2013 [10 favorites]
during one of his displays one of them said to me "can you please keep him away from me when he's like that?". She's 5.
This is terrifying and heartbreaking.
What exactly does he do in his episodes of "frightening nastiness?" Are these his biological children?
posted by cairdeas at 1:02 PM on October 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
This is terrifying and heartbreaking.
What exactly does he do in his episodes of "frightening nastiness?" Are these his biological children?
posted by cairdeas at 1:02 PM on October 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
Tell us more about this "frightening nastiness". What does he do? What seems to trigger it?
posted by Dansaman at 1:04 PM on October 11, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by Dansaman at 1:04 PM on October 11, 2013 [4 favorites]
I just also want to say that I grew up very frightened very often, and as a result I have a lifelong anxiety disorder, which started at the age of 10, which has at times been very debilitating, caused me physical health problems, and has not been permanently cured by any of the many things I have tried. I'm a grown adult and I still have it. So, I don't think whether "you're the crazy one or he is" is really relevant at all. Your children are being badly frightened in their home, it's kind of besides the point whose "fault" his behavior is.
posted by cairdeas at 1:07 PM on October 11, 2013 [44 favorites]
posted by cairdeas at 1:07 PM on October 11, 2013 [44 favorites]
Not enough specifics here to be super helpful, but I must say that a divorce isn't likely to help you protect the kids from him, if he's just "nasty." Courts will generally not keep a kid away from a dad who is just "nasty", so if you have separate households and he wants a typical custody arrangement, you may wind up protecting them less, not more.
That said, you do have to protect your children from this -- nastiness can do terrible damage -- so I think you need to insist on couples' counseling, and maybe the therapist will be able to get him referred to anger management. If he says "we don't need counseling, we're happily married!" you can say "right, and because I love you and treasure you, I want to find ways to fix the problems that we do have, so we can stay that way."
posted by fingersandtoes at 1:08 PM on October 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
That said, you do have to protect your children from this -- nastiness can do terrible damage -- so I think you need to insist on couples' counseling, and maybe the therapist will be able to get him referred to anger management. If he says "we don't need counseling, we're happily married!" you can say "right, and because I love you and treasure you, I want to find ways to fix the problems that we do have, so we can stay that way."
posted by fingersandtoes at 1:08 PM on October 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
Am I crazy or is he?
See: Gaslighting.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:12 PM on October 11, 2013 [11 favorites]
See: Gaslighting.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:12 PM on October 11, 2013 [11 favorites]
Nthing insist on couples counseling. This is not good for the kids, and it's great that you are taking your daughter's request seriously. Please continue to do that. I am also a daughter of parents who scared me when young, and at age 37, I too still have issues with anxiety, which continue in spite of 4 years of therapy now. I had another nightmare about parental abuse a few days ago, as a matter of fact. (Nightmares are returning now that everything else in my life is A-OK. Sigh. I trust therapy will eventually help with those too. Just, want to add another voice to how debilitating and long-term this sort of thing can be for children.)
You say he gets: a hurt, puzzled "are you MAD at me?" If he does this again, tell him that he was angry with the children, then ask him if he thinks children are able to manage their own hurt about an incomprehensibly angry parent better than he, as an adult, is managing his hurt towards a fellow adult. He needs to take responsibility for himself. If he doesn't, please, please do not let the burden for that be passed onto children. They would carry it for the rest of their lives, one way or another.
posted by fraula at 1:14 PM on October 11, 2013 [5 favorites]
You say he gets: a hurt, puzzled "are you MAD at me?" If he does this again, tell him that he was angry with the children, then ask him if he thinks children are able to manage their own hurt about an incomprehensibly angry parent better than he, as an adult, is managing his hurt towards a fellow adult. He needs to take responsibility for himself. If he doesn't, please, please do not let the burden for that be passed onto children. They would carry it for the rest of their lives, one way or another.
posted by fraula at 1:14 PM on October 11, 2013 [5 favorites]
Like fraula, my most recent nightmare about family abuse was only a few days ago.
posted by cairdeas at 1:16 PM on October 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by cairdeas at 1:16 PM on October 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
I used to be rather short tempered and loud to my (then) one child (this was almost eight years ago), but I went into therapy and took medication for anxiety/depression, and I became a completely different person towards her, and in turn my second child as well. YMMV.
posted by 4ster at 1:18 PM on October 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by 4ster at 1:18 PM on October 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
Your husband needs professional diagnosis. It is possible that his 'incidents' are involuntary, and the result of a mental problem.
posted by Cranberry at 1:18 PM on October 11, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by Cranberry at 1:18 PM on October 11, 2013 [4 favorites]
your primary duty is to your children.
posted by bruce at 1:19 PM on October 11, 2013 [8 favorites]
posted by bruce at 1:19 PM on October 11, 2013 [8 favorites]
Anger management program for him and counseling for him and both of you immediately. This is a very serious issue and your kids need to have their exposure to these outbursts eliminated. They may develop life-long problems from this kind of trauma.
If he isn't willing to recognize his own behavior and take changing it seriously, remove your kids from the situation. If that means divorce, so be it.
posted by quince at 1:21 PM on October 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
If he isn't willing to recognize his own behavior and take changing it seriously, remove your kids from the situation. If that means divorce, so be it.
posted by quince at 1:21 PM on October 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
Wow, you are getting an incredible amount of advice based on precious little information about what he is actually doing. You really need to elaborate, not only what I asked about what he is specifically doing and whether anything in particular seems to trigger it but also whether he does the same thing in any other contexts.
posted by Dansaman at 1:23 PM on October 11, 2013 [19 favorites]
posted by Dansaman at 1:23 PM on October 11, 2013 [19 favorites]
You could try telling him to interact with you before he interacts with the children.
posted by No Robots at 1:24 PM on October 11, 2013
posted by No Robots at 1:24 PM on October 11, 2013
I'll merely note in passing the recommendations for couples counseling appear to me to be putting more than your share (i.e. none) of the responsibility for his behavior onto you. Gaslighting by proxy.
This is his problem; he needs to fix it. Insist he do so or remove the necessity of his doing so.
posted by Emperor SnooKloze at 1:31 PM on October 11, 2013 [3 favorites]
This is his problem; he needs to fix it. Insist he do so or remove the necessity of his doing so.
posted by Emperor SnooKloze at 1:31 PM on October 11, 2013 [3 favorites]
This sounds so much like my parents it makes me anxious to read about it. They never divorced and despite some fights and other efforts on my mom's part things never changed. I left home immediately after graduating high school, have zero contact with my father, rarely see my mom because, even though I like her, every time I visit I have violent, horrifying nightmares. I am never going to have children, at least in part because the idea of being in a family again terrifies me.
There was no physical abuse in my family by the way, just random, rage filled outbursts. The kind that keep everyone on edge all the time. If this is what it is like in your house, you need to do something. And not just a workaround where you avoid 'things that make dad angry'.
posted by velebita at 1:32 PM on October 11, 2013 [13 favorites]
There was no physical abuse in my family by the way, just random, rage filled outbursts. The kind that keep everyone on edge all the time. If this is what it is like in your house, you need to do something. And not just a workaround where you avoid 'things that make dad angry'.
posted by velebita at 1:32 PM on October 11, 2013 [13 favorites]
Best answer: Anger management programs are a waste of time. The very phrase is a joke amongst the kind of people who could actually benefit from them (and some who couldn't), and on top of that the very suggestion is a provocation to those kind of people. From what you've said, he's incapable of focusing on his own bad behavior, so if you suggest it, he will just twist it around and use it as more leverage in his gaslighting.
Who cares if he loves you? Who cares if your primary romantic relationship is happy? Who cares if there is hope to improve it? Your children are suffering and traumatized now, that's all that matters. Cut him out of their life and protect them. The emotional well-being of your kids is not an acceptable risk, and they will get over having him in their lives a lot more easily and quickly than they could get over a lifetime of emotional abuse. Any "work" you try to do on your relationship with him, anything you try to salvage, is literally placing yourself above the health and safety of your kids. Don't do it.
If it's a problem that medication or therapy or anything can fix in him, that's fine, he can do that in his own space and his own time, and then it's up to him to repair his relationship with you as the guardian of your children to prove that he's trustworthy, and then up to him again to actually repair the relationship with your kids, but those are seperate issues and neither of them is your problem. Your first priority has to be to the kids, and if it's not, they will realize that.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 1:34 PM on October 11, 2013 [13 favorites]
Who cares if he loves you? Who cares if your primary romantic relationship is happy? Who cares if there is hope to improve it? Your children are suffering and traumatized now, that's all that matters. Cut him out of their life and protect them. The emotional well-being of your kids is not an acceptable risk, and they will get over having him in their lives a lot more easily and quickly than they could get over a lifetime of emotional abuse. Any "work" you try to do on your relationship with him, anything you try to salvage, is literally placing yourself above the health and safety of your kids. Don't do it.
If it's a problem that medication or therapy or anything can fix in him, that's fine, he can do that in his own space and his own time, and then it's up to him to repair his relationship with you as the guardian of your children to prove that he's trustworthy, and then up to him again to actually repair the relationship with your kids, but those are seperate issues and neither of them is your problem. Your first priority has to be to the kids, and if it's not, they will realize that.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 1:34 PM on October 11, 2013 [13 favorites]
First thing is this: do not correct him in front of the kids, nor let them HEAR you do it from the next room, unless he is physically harming them. Doing this will only make him feel worse and it could make the behavior worse.
Second is this: your primary responsibility is to HIM and your marriage. If the kids see that you are taking their side, 100% of the time, in discipline issues, it will lessen their respect for him... also making the problem worse.
Talk to him privately, offer to go to counseling, and don't discount the possibility that you may need some professional help as much as he does. This is an issue between you and him, not between you and the kids and him, assuming he's not physically hurting them.
posted by brownrd at 1:39 PM on October 11, 2013 [4 favorites]
Second is this: your primary responsibility is to HIM and your marriage. If the kids see that you are taking their side, 100% of the time, in discipline issues, it will lessen their respect for him... also making the problem worse.
Talk to him privately, offer to go to counseling, and don't discount the possibility that you may need some professional help as much as he does. This is an issue between you and him, not between you and the kids and him, assuming he's not physically hurting them.
posted by brownrd at 1:39 PM on October 11, 2013 [4 favorites]
Sorry to reply so much, I am only bringing up the experience of child abuse from the child's perspective because I think it is directly relevant, and I just want to say one more thing. After my anxiety about various things built to the point that I had my first panic attack (of thousands) at 10, that same day, I became a different person. I felt it happen, and I never felt like myself again. It took me years to get back to feeling normal. But I never got back to feeling like myself. And at this point in my life, I don't even remember what it felt like.
posted by cairdeas at 1:42 PM on October 11, 2013 [9 favorites]
posted by cairdeas at 1:42 PM on October 11, 2013 [9 favorites]
I have frightened my children with my anger, even very recently. Would I blame Mrs. Robots if she were to leave me because of it? No. Do I want to be better? Yes. Am I working to be better? Yes. Am I worried that I have traumatized my children permanently? Yes.
I guess I'm posting this just because I see a bit of a pile on against the husband that I don't think is balanced.
posted by No Robots at 1:44 PM on October 11, 2013 [4 favorites]
I guess I'm posting this just because I see a bit of a pile on against the husband that I don't think is balanced.
posted by No Robots at 1:44 PM on October 11, 2013 [4 favorites]
I could not agree with cairdeas more.
I really don't think it matters if he loves you if his behaviors are terrifying his children. You tagged this abuse.
Do you want your children to be raised in an environment where they grow up thinking similar questions as you are right now. Was this my fault? Does he love me? Am I crazy for being frightened of my dad? Are all dads like this?
Soon, he's going to put the responsibility for his behavior and anger and outbursts on to your children. And they are going to think it is their fault. Think about that.
posted by inertia at 1:46 PM on October 11, 2013 [3 favorites]
I really don't think it matters if he loves you if his behaviors are terrifying his children. You tagged this abuse.
Do you want your children to be raised in an environment where they grow up thinking similar questions as you are right now. Was this my fault? Does he love me? Am I crazy for being frightened of my dad? Are all dads like this?
Soon, he's going to put the responsibility for his behavior and anger and outbursts on to your children. And they are going to think it is their fault. Think about that.
posted by inertia at 1:46 PM on October 11, 2013 [3 favorites]
Wasn't going to comment on this one, since there are a lot of good perspectives already, but wanted to say that I believe this:
your primary responsibility is to HIM and your marriage to be wrong. No, it is the kids who are any parents' prime responsibility, and they DO come before marriage duties or loyalty for the partner (or anything else, really). There are enough people, even in this thread, who are evidence of the disastrous results of regularly prioritising the needs of others above the needs of your children.
Signed: another sufferer of consequences.
posted by miorita at 1:46 PM on October 11, 2013 [36 favorites]
your primary responsibility is to HIM and your marriage to be wrong. No, it is the kids who are any parents' prime responsibility, and they DO come before marriage duties or loyalty for the partner (or anything else, really). There are enough people, even in this thread, who are evidence of the disastrous results of regularly prioritising the needs of others above the needs of your children.
Signed: another sufferer of consequences.
posted by miorita at 1:46 PM on October 11, 2013 [36 favorites]
Second is this: your primary responsibility is to HIM and your marriage. If the kids see that you are taking their side, 100% of the time, in discipline issues, it will lessen their respect for him... also making the problem worse.
Yeah, because what's important is their respect for him, obviously.
It's basic human morality that you side with whoever is in the right. A father verbally abusing his children to the point that they are afraid of him is never in the right. A grown man's ego is not more important than the emotions of a five-year-old who is scared of her father, and it is repugnant to suggest otherwise. He's an adult, and misbehaving. She is a child, and doing nothing wrong. The moral compass in this situation is crystal clear.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 1:47 PM on October 11, 2013 [37 favorites]
Yeah, because what's important is their respect for him, obviously.
It's basic human morality that you side with whoever is in the right. A father verbally abusing his children to the point that they are afraid of him is never in the right. A grown man's ego is not more important than the emotions of a five-year-old who is scared of her father, and it is repugnant to suggest otherwise. He's an adult, and misbehaving. She is a child, and doing nothing wrong. The moral compass in this situation is crystal clear.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 1:47 PM on October 11, 2013 [37 favorites]
Mod note: Gentle reminder - This question is clearly close to home for a lot of people, so please remember to keep answers to constructive suggestions for OP, not other stuff. Do not debate other commenters. Thanks.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:48 PM on October 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:48 PM on October 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
This is a good book about the possible effects of his outbursts on your kids
This is not to say that your husband doesn't mean well, but what if he refuses to let himself become aware of this tendency of his, and his outbursts continue unchecked, or even become worse?
posted by miorita at 1:53 PM on October 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
This is not to say that your husband doesn't mean well, but what if he refuses to let himself become aware of this tendency of his, and his outbursts continue unchecked, or even become worse?
posted by miorita at 1:53 PM on October 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
Someone cannot love you and abuse you at the same time. It's just not possible. He can think he loves you and has a happy marriage all he wants to but if he is intimidating you and your children then the facts say otherwise.
I'd suggest therapy for you alone right now. And read this book before you consider therapy with him: Why Does He Do That?. I wasted the better part of a year in therapy with my husband and he spent that time twisting it around to his own advantage. The therapist never had a clue that he was doing this but now that some time has passed, I can see it more clearly.
Feel free to memail me any time if you want to talk.
posted by dawkins_7 at 1:57 PM on October 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'd suggest therapy for you alone right now. And read this book before you consider therapy with him: Why Does He Do That?. I wasted the better part of a year in therapy with my husband and he spent that time twisting it around to his own advantage. The therapist never had a clue that he was doing this but now that some time has passed, I can see it more clearly.
Feel free to memail me any time if you want to talk.
posted by dawkins_7 at 1:57 PM on October 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
Your children are suffering and traumatized now
I'm not sure she presented any evidence of that in her post. She did tag the question with 'abuse' but she also said "The kids love him and vie for his attention". I think a lot of people are bringing their own experiences to this question, which doesn't really have enough specific details to know exactly what the father is doing, except probably raising his voice.
Esmew, does he know that your child asked you this question? How does he feel about that?
I've been trying -- fruitlessly -- to find an article I read recently wherein the father was watching the film version of Where the Wild Things Are with his children, and the film opened up a wonderful conversation between him and his children about the times when the father got angry (just a little angry, from his perspective) but the kids were frightened by it. In the end, he was able to amend his behavior because his kids -- not much older than 5 -- were able to have a conversation about how they felt when he raised his voice. I'm not saying AT ALL that you should do this specific thing, but it was a good article showing that certainly a parent can change when the realize they're being a bit scary to their child.
There is a long distance between leaving things as they are and getting a divorce. I would certainly submit that this would be a great thing for you and your husband to talk with a counselor about, but, were it me, I would try to frame it as wanting to make him a more successful parent. Often, parents yell or are 'nasty' because it is the way they, themselves, were raised, and they just don't (yet) have the toolkit to do anything that what was modeled for them. So, if it's only this one behavior that is driving you over the edge, see what steps he'll take to work with you so you can become a better parenting team. That might be taking a parenting class together, or seeing a family counselor. A great first step might be -- when he starts doing whatever it is that he does -- to not shout back at him but instead model a positive behavior by (in a conversational tone) giving him a verbal que ("You're doing it again" or "Please take a moment and think about what you're saying") while also taking whatever steps necessary to remove the kids from his presence. Then, talk with him afterwards about exactly what he said. Work together to find out why he behaved that way and what different approaches he could have taken.
However, I will add that, from your question ("last time I told him I'd had it") there might be other issues in your marriage, and his behavior toward you and the family as a whole, in which case, again, counseling might help you clarify if this is a relationship you want to stay in, or not.
It's conspicous that you never say you love him.
posted by anastasiav at 1:58 PM on October 11, 2013 [11 favorites]
I'm not sure she presented any evidence of that in her post. She did tag the question with 'abuse' but she also said "The kids love him and vie for his attention". I think a lot of people are bringing their own experiences to this question, which doesn't really have enough specific details to know exactly what the father is doing, except probably raising his voice.
Esmew, does he know that your child asked you this question? How does he feel about that?
I've been trying -- fruitlessly -- to find an article I read recently wherein the father was watching the film version of Where the Wild Things Are with his children, and the film opened up a wonderful conversation between him and his children about the times when the father got angry (just a little angry, from his perspective) but the kids were frightened by it. In the end, he was able to amend his behavior because his kids -- not much older than 5 -- were able to have a conversation about how they felt when he raised his voice. I'm not saying AT ALL that you should do this specific thing, but it was a good article showing that certainly a parent can change when the realize they're being a bit scary to their child.
There is a long distance between leaving things as they are and getting a divorce. I would certainly submit that this would be a great thing for you and your husband to talk with a counselor about, but, were it me, I would try to frame it as wanting to make him a more successful parent. Often, parents yell or are 'nasty' because it is the way they, themselves, were raised, and they just don't (yet) have the toolkit to do anything that what was modeled for them. So, if it's only this one behavior that is driving you over the edge, see what steps he'll take to work with you so you can become a better parenting team. That might be taking a parenting class together, or seeing a family counselor. A great first step might be -- when he starts doing whatever it is that he does -- to not shout back at him but instead model a positive behavior by (in a conversational tone) giving him a verbal que ("You're doing it again" or "Please take a moment and think about what you're saying") while also taking whatever steps necessary to remove the kids from his presence. Then, talk with him afterwards about exactly what he said. Work together to find out why he behaved that way and what different approaches he could have taken.
However, I will add that, from your question ("last time I told him I'd had it") there might be other issues in your marriage, and his behavior toward you and the family as a whole, in which case, again, counseling might help you clarify if this is a relationship you want to stay in, or not.
It's conspicous that you never say you love him.
posted by anastasiav at 1:58 PM on October 11, 2013 [11 favorites]
Having a parent who alternates between loving/safe behavior and frightening/unsafe behavior at random is really damaging to a child's sense of how to recognize and build trust in healthy relationships.
I don't know what the trigger for these "episodes" is, or exactly what happens, but it sounds like he engages in nasty and inappropriate ways of speaking to your kids, and that's never ok. This is NOT the same as being loving and playful in one moment and then getting appropriately angry or annoyed when the kid does something frustrating. Being loving in one moment and then getting nasty (for whatever reason) in the next, doesn't communicate that there are consequences for their actions (like, if they break a rule Dad will stop being playful and make them take a time out). Rather, it communicates that even this person who should be one of the safest and most trustworthy people in their life can be dangerous and nasty at random. They may still want his love and attention, they may still enjoy spending time with him when he's in a "loving" mood, but they'll grow up with a damaged sense of how healthy, loving relationships work.
So, if his behavior toward the kids really does rise to the level of abuse, protecting your kids from exposure to that behavior needs to be your priority. If you're not sure how to assess his behavior, consider calling a domestic violence shelter or similar social service organization in your area, or consult a therapist.
posted by Meg_Murry at 2:08 PM on October 11, 2013 [17 favorites]
I don't know what the trigger for these "episodes" is, or exactly what happens, but it sounds like he engages in nasty and inappropriate ways of speaking to your kids, and that's never ok. This is NOT the same as being loving and playful in one moment and then getting appropriately angry or annoyed when the kid does something frustrating. Being loving in one moment and then getting nasty (for whatever reason) in the next, doesn't communicate that there are consequences for their actions (like, if they break a rule Dad will stop being playful and make them take a time out). Rather, it communicates that even this person who should be one of the safest and most trustworthy people in their life can be dangerous and nasty at random. They may still want his love and attention, they may still enjoy spending time with him when he's in a "loving" mood, but they'll grow up with a damaged sense of how healthy, loving relationships work.
So, if his behavior toward the kids really does rise to the level of abuse, protecting your kids from exposure to that behavior needs to be your priority. If you're not sure how to assess his behavior, consider calling a domestic violence shelter or similar social service organization in your area, or consult a therapist.
posted by Meg_Murry at 2:08 PM on October 11, 2013 [17 favorites]
I agree that there is not enough information. Kids say and do all kinds of things for all kinds of reasons. Its possible that the girl is genuinely afraid of her father and wants her mother to protect her. However, I can fill in the blanks a half-dozen other ways and not all of the scenarios would be an abusive father.
What we know is her mother is in crisis and needs to know that her being so upset is reason enough to seek a trained, disinterested third party. If her spouse won't join her, than that's useful information.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 2:09 PM on October 11, 2013 [3 favorites]
What we know is her mother is in crisis and needs to know that her being so upset is reason enough to seek a trained, disinterested third party. If her spouse won't join her, than that's useful information.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 2:09 PM on October 11, 2013 [3 favorites]
Please listen to Dansaman. There's a lot of missing information here and people are jumping to wild conclusions based on very little information.
You need to elaborate on what's happening for people to help you. The only thing I can glean for sure from your post is that the adults in the house seem to lose their tempers.
@Lesser is also right. It would also be a good idea to seek advice outside the house.
posted by cnc at 2:23 PM on October 11, 2013 [4 favorites]
You need to elaborate on what's happening for people to help you. The only thing I can glean for sure from your post is that the adults in the house seem to lose their tempers.
@Lesser is also right. It would also be a good idea to seek advice outside the house.
posted by cnc at 2:23 PM on October 11, 2013 [4 favorites]
There's a lot to unpack in your question, so I'm going to go through each part.
My husband's behavior towards my children worries me by episodes (frightening nastiness superseded within minutes by normal, loving, even patient fatherly behavior).
My first thought: has he had his mental health checked by anyone? How many episodes: daily? Weekly? Several times a day? Is this new or is it normal?
I think I've gotten used to a little too much.
Clearly, what's happening is bothering you.
The kids love him and vie for his attention, but one day after I'd shouted at him to cut it out during one of his displays one of them said to me "can you please keep him away from me when he's like that?". She's 5.
It's apparently bothering the kids, too. The fact that a child loves a parent doesn't say much about whether that parent is being abusive. Children will seek out love from parents who are abusive.
I think that if I told him that I want a divorce he would be genuinely hurt, astounded, incredulous, etc., and would probably suggest all sorts of ways I could amend my own behavior to correct the situation. He did that last time I told him I'd had it, and a hurt, puzzled "are you MAD at me?" is something I hear every time I show a shortening of patience around him. What's driving me crazy is that he says, and believes it himself, that he is in love with me, that we're happily married, and the kids are great.
This doesn't sound good; he is unable to understand the problem; blames you for it; tries to guilt you into staying with talk of love for you and the kids. The only takeway I would add here is that talking of love means nothing at all, but actions do. If he doesn't act loving, or concerned that you and the kids are frightened of him and want to change that, then he either has a real mental issue that he is in denial about, or is abusive.
I want to raise my kids in some kind of peace; is there any hope?
That is up to you, at this juncture. You have to make the change happen. How depends on what you think is best.
Even verbal abuse has a bad impact on kids' development, even if it's not directed at them. It doesn't have to leave a visible bruise to cause pain.
His behavior is out of line. If he won't take immediate steps (therapy, first of all) to fix it, and especially if he simply denies/puts blame on you for the problem, then your only safe option is to remove yourself and your kids from the situation.
I am not your therapist or lawyer, so I won't try to tell you what to do in detail, but I can tell you that if I told my husband that our son was scared of his outbursts, he would be horrified. Even if he thought I was wrong, he would be extremely worried that our son or I felt that way, and would want to do something about it.
And that's how it should be. Whatever else is going on, your husband should care, a great deal, about your feelings and your kids' feelings. The evidence that he doesn't is the most worrying part of this situation.
posted by emjaybee at 2:38 PM on October 11, 2013 [8 favorites]
My husband's behavior towards my children worries me by episodes (frightening nastiness superseded within minutes by normal, loving, even patient fatherly behavior).
My first thought: has he had his mental health checked by anyone? How many episodes: daily? Weekly? Several times a day? Is this new or is it normal?
I think I've gotten used to a little too much.
Clearly, what's happening is bothering you.
The kids love him and vie for his attention, but one day after I'd shouted at him to cut it out during one of his displays one of them said to me "can you please keep him away from me when he's like that?". She's 5.
It's apparently bothering the kids, too. The fact that a child loves a parent doesn't say much about whether that parent is being abusive. Children will seek out love from parents who are abusive.
I think that if I told him that I want a divorce he would be genuinely hurt, astounded, incredulous, etc., and would probably suggest all sorts of ways I could amend my own behavior to correct the situation. He did that last time I told him I'd had it, and a hurt, puzzled "are you MAD at me?" is something I hear every time I show a shortening of patience around him. What's driving me crazy is that he says, and believes it himself, that he is in love with me, that we're happily married, and the kids are great.
This doesn't sound good; he is unable to understand the problem; blames you for it; tries to guilt you into staying with talk of love for you and the kids. The only takeway I would add here is that talking of love means nothing at all, but actions do. If he doesn't act loving, or concerned that you and the kids are frightened of him and want to change that, then he either has a real mental issue that he is in denial about, or is abusive.
I want to raise my kids in some kind of peace; is there any hope?
That is up to you, at this juncture. You have to make the change happen. How depends on what you think is best.
Even verbal abuse has a bad impact on kids' development, even if it's not directed at them. It doesn't have to leave a visible bruise to cause pain.
His behavior is out of line. If he won't take immediate steps (therapy, first of all) to fix it, and especially if he simply denies/puts blame on you for the problem, then your only safe option is to remove yourself and your kids from the situation.
I am not your therapist or lawyer, so I won't try to tell you what to do in detail, but I can tell you that if I told my husband that our son was scared of his outbursts, he would be horrified. Even if he thought I was wrong, he would be extremely worried that our son or I felt that way, and would want to do something about it.
And that's how it should be. Whatever else is going on, your husband should care, a great deal, about your feelings and your kids' feelings. The evidence that he doesn't is the most worrying part of this situation.
posted by emjaybee at 2:38 PM on October 11, 2013 [8 favorites]
I'd try being very specific with him at the time of the next episode. That is, quote exactly what he said and the tone you perceived. It sounds as though he is not hearing himself.
You might try surreptitiously taping it, so that he can hear himself later, when his blood's not up, as motivation to do anger management therapy.
posted by sebastienbailard at 2:39 PM on October 11, 2013
You might try surreptitiously taping it, so that he can hear himself later, when his blood's not up, as motivation to do anger management therapy.
posted by sebastienbailard at 2:39 PM on October 11, 2013
Children will seek out love from parents who are abusive.
This. And, especially, when a parent switches rapidly between being "great" and loving and being frighteningly angry, the child will learn that abuse is love.
They "vie for his attention" because they are at the earliest stages of becoming someone who posts on the green about how to win the affection of a cruel and/or unavailable partner. This is how people get trained to do that. By now, it's probably burned into your kids.
posted by tel3path at 2:44 PM on October 11, 2013 [19 favorites]
This. And, especially, when a parent switches rapidly between being "great" and loving and being frighteningly angry, the child will learn that abuse is love.
They "vie for his attention" because they are at the earliest stages of becoming someone who posts on the green about how to win the affection of a cruel and/or unavailable partner. This is how people get trained to do that. By now, it's probably burned into your kids.
posted by tel3path at 2:44 PM on October 11, 2013 [19 favorites]
You haven't described to us, with any detail or specifics, what exactly he has done wrong.
This just makes me wonder, if you have also not explained to him exactly and specifically what he is doing that is out of bounds.
Also, your description of his behavior ("frightening nastiness superseded within minutes by normal, loving, even patient fatherly behavior") could have a number of different causes. But I would think it quite likely that given the huge, sudden shift in behavior there is probably an equally large shift in his mental space. And if the episodes are are severe as you seem to indicate, he may be ruled by very strong emotions during the episodes and so, not be forming clear, logical memories.
In short, when you bring this up later he may only vaguely remember "I was kinda upset for a while" whereas you, being more clear-headed at the time, remember seven specific things that went wrong.
Point is, are you able to clearly articulate (to him and to others, including professionals who might be able to help, etc) those seven specific things that went wrong during the episode. Are you able to clearly explain to him, at some later time when he is calm, exactly what he said, exactly what his tone was, exactly what he did physically, or whatever, that is the problem?
What we've got so far is "frightening," "nastiness," and "abuse." But what are the specifics? Shouting? Raging? Hitting? Threatening? Is it physical? Psychological? Mental? Verbal? If he is saying certain things that are unacceptable, what EXACTLY is he saying and why EXACTLY is that a problem?
I mean, I think your first step would be to have a talk with him and explain that X is a problem to you and to the children, find out if he agrees that X is a problem, and if he is willing to work on a solution to X. All next steps would depend on what happened during that conversation (or set of conversations).
But before you can have those conversations, you need to be able to explain, to yourself and to your husband, exactly what X is.
Also, it's just possible that X is a huge problem for you and the children, but husband is only vaguely aware of X at all, or is aware of it but isn't aware of what a huge problem it really is.
(And also, if you could explain X clearly to us, you would get much more detailed and helpful answers. My sense is that many above are filling in X based on their own experience, which may or may not parallel yours--all depending on what X is, exactly.)
posted by flug at 2:56 PM on October 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
This just makes me wonder, if you have also not explained to him exactly and specifically what he is doing that is out of bounds.
Also, your description of his behavior ("frightening nastiness superseded within minutes by normal, loving, even patient fatherly behavior") could have a number of different causes. But I would think it quite likely that given the huge, sudden shift in behavior there is probably an equally large shift in his mental space. And if the episodes are are severe as you seem to indicate, he may be ruled by very strong emotions during the episodes and so, not be forming clear, logical memories.
In short, when you bring this up later he may only vaguely remember "I was kinda upset for a while" whereas you, being more clear-headed at the time, remember seven specific things that went wrong.
Point is, are you able to clearly articulate (to him and to others, including professionals who might be able to help, etc) those seven specific things that went wrong during the episode. Are you able to clearly explain to him, at some later time when he is calm, exactly what he said, exactly what his tone was, exactly what he did physically, or whatever, that is the problem?
What we've got so far is "frightening," "nastiness," and "abuse." But what are the specifics? Shouting? Raging? Hitting? Threatening? Is it physical? Psychological? Mental? Verbal? If he is saying certain things that are unacceptable, what EXACTLY is he saying and why EXACTLY is that a problem?
I mean, I think your first step would be to have a talk with him and explain that X is a problem to you and to the children, find out if he agrees that X is a problem, and if he is willing to work on a solution to X. All next steps would depend on what happened during that conversation (or set of conversations).
But before you can have those conversations, you need to be able to explain, to yourself and to your husband, exactly what X is.
Also, it's just possible that X is a huge problem for you and the children, but husband is only vaguely aware of X at all, or is aware of it but isn't aware of what a huge problem it really is.
(And also, if you could explain X clearly to us, you would get much more detailed and helpful answers. My sense is that many above are filling in X based on their own experience, which may or may not parallel yours--all depending on what X is, exactly.)
posted by flug at 2:56 PM on October 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
Just because someone loves you does not mean that they are a healthy person for you. Just because a parent loves you does not make them a good parent. Your children deserve to grow up in a safe and respectful home, and they are mentally, socially, financially and legally incapable of doing that on their own. You have to do it for them, regardless of what you want for yourself. And if you don't have what it takes to ensure your children live in a safe environment, you have a responsibility to temporarily or permanently give up their care to another party.
posted by windykites at 3:00 PM on October 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by windykites at 3:00 PM on October 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
I've been married for 15 years and my wife and I have five kids. Over the past several years my wife would say things to me like "Why are you always mad at me and the kids?" or "Do you have to be so mean and nasty?"
I thought *she* was the one with the problem. If she knew the van was out of gas and didn't fill it up, then I had to take the kids somewhere and was forced to stop to get gas, it was *her* problem. She *deserved* my irritation.
Seven weeks ago I started back on Prozac (for my OCD) after several years off. The change in my reactions and behavior was gradual, but I feel like a completely different person now. I can actually SEE how I used to react to her and the kids and I'm ashamed of it. Little things annoyed me. I was irrational and I yelled when the kids wouldn't listen to me. And it drove a wedge between me and my wife because it made her feel unloved - like nothing she did was good enough.
We started couples counseling two weeks ago. I was set against it at first, but our two sessions so far have opened my eyes. I see the pain I've caused other people and I am committed to changing. The past two weeks have breathed a new life in our marriage and family (through a lot of tears and long, late-night discussions).
I write all this to say one thing: he can change, but he won't unless he has an impetus to do so. Mine was Prozac and the possible end of our marriage. And the couple counseling has made a big difference.
Good luck and God bless.
posted by tacodave at 3:55 PM on October 11, 2013 [34 favorites]
I thought *she* was the one with the problem. If she knew the van was out of gas and didn't fill it up, then I had to take the kids somewhere and was forced to stop to get gas, it was *her* problem. She *deserved* my irritation.
Seven weeks ago I started back on Prozac (for my OCD) after several years off. The change in my reactions and behavior was gradual, but I feel like a completely different person now. I can actually SEE how I used to react to her and the kids and I'm ashamed of it. Little things annoyed me. I was irrational and I yelled when the kids wouldn't listen to me. And it drove a wedge between me and my wife because it made her feel unloved - like nothing she did was good enough.
We started couples counseling two weeks ago. I was set against it at first, but our two sessions so far have opened my eyes. I see the pain I've caused other people and I am committed to changing. The past two weeks have breathed a new life in our marriage and family (through a lot of tears and long, late-night discussions).
I write all this to say one thing: he can change, but he won't unless he has an impetus to do so. Mine was Prozac and the possible end of our marriage. And the couple counseling has made a big difference.
Good luck and God bless.
posted by tacodave at 3:55 PM on October 11, 2013 [34 favorites]
Best answer: When I was three, I figured that maybe some kids just have mean daddies, and I was just one of those kids. By the time I was six, my mother's failure to protect me from my father convinced me that I was the bad one.
I got away from him. I will never get away from myself.
Please protect your children.
posted by tllaya at 5:35 PM on October 11, 2013 [18 favorites]
I got away from him. I will never get away from myself.
Please protect your children.
posted by tllaya at 5:35 PM on October 11, 2013 [18 favorites]
I wonder what your husband's upbringing was like.
But I think you really do need to take steps now. What worries me is his lack of selfawareness, and you really do need to do whatever needs to be done for him to becume aware that there is a problem that needs to be fixed.
Only you know what is going on here, we don't, but my suggestion is that you consider a simple temporary separation the purpose of which is to get his attention. If you can get his attention with less drastic steps, more the better, but whatever you do, a line needs to be drawn.
There is a good father in there. He needs to make sure that that is the father his kids get.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 6:27 PM on October 11, 2013
But I think you really do need to take steps now. What worries me is his lack of selfawareness, and you really do need to do whatever needs to be done for him to becume aware that there is a problem that needs to be fixed.
Only you know what is going on here, we don't, but my suggestion is that you consider a simple temporary separation the purpose of which is to get his attention. If you can get his attention with less drastic steps, more the better, but whatever you do, a line needs to be drawn.
There is a good father in there. He needs to make sure that that is the father his kids get.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 6:27 PM on October 11, 2013
Okay, I went and looked at the tags to this post.
Are YOU afraid of him? If you are or you have reason to be afraid of him-to put it bluntly, step one is to call an abuse hotline.
The things a lot of us are suggesting will not work if he is abusive to you. In fact lots of times it is not recommended to do couples counselling in an abuse situation. It's too dangerous for you.
I am doing a lot of reading between the lines, and it really is possible that you are not taking what is going on seriously enough. If you are not comfortable talking this out with someone who knows you, try this thought experiment-if this was a sister or friend describing her family life with you what would YOU tell her to do?
Do that.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 6:31 PM on October 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
Are YOU afraid of him? If you are or you have reason to be afraid of him-to put it bluntly, step one is to call an abuse hotline.
The things a lot of us are suggesting will not work if he is abusive to you. In fact lots of times it is not recommended to do couples counselling in an abuse situation. It's too dangerous for you.
I am doing a lot of reading between the lines, and it really is possible that you are not taking what is going on seriously enough. If you are not comfortable talking this out with someone who knows you, try this thought experiment-if this was a sister or friend describing her family life with you what would YOU tell her to do?
Do that.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 6:31 PM on October 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Your primary responsibility is to your children.
If there is another adult in your home who is threatening, scaring, or otherwise abusing your children, you should get that adult out of the house or get yourself and your kids into a new house. It doesn't matter if you're married to that other adult, frankly. It may make it more difficult but it doesn't change the basic fact of the matter that you have to protect your kids.
If you want to work things out with your husband, you can do that from a safe distance, once the kids are protected.
posted by alms at 7:39 PM on October 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
If there is another adult in your home who is threatening, scaring, or otherwise abusing your children, you should get that adult out of the house or get yourself and your kids into a new house. It doesn't matter if you're married to that other adult, frankly. It may make it more difficult but it doesn't change the basic fact of the matter that you have to protect your kids.
If you want to work things out with your husband, you can do that from a safe distance, once the kids are protected.
posted by alms at 7:39 PM on October 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
Without more information, probably the best suggestion I can make is counseling with a third party who can listen to both of you in detail.
I'm probably projecting here, so adjust your grain of salt accordingly. My father also alternated between abusive and OK, but seemed to think that he was OK all the time. While it in no way excuses it or makes it OK, I've come to understand and make my peace with how his own upbringing at the hands of a violent drunk and a cold enabler left him without the ability to recognize the difference. He did better than them, and that was the best he could conceive of. He probably shouldn't have had children, but that's what people did.
And yes, although she and I have worked it out and have a great relationship, my mother's failure to protect us from my father hurt me at least as much as my father ever did himself.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:00 PM on October 11, 2013 [4 favorites]
I'm probably projecting here, so adjust your grain of salt accordingly. My father also alternated between abusive and OK, but seemed to think that he was OK all the time. While it in no way excuses it or makes it OK, I've come to understand and make my peace with how his own upbringing at the hands of a violent drunk and a cold enabler left him without the ability to recognize the difference. He did better than them, and that was the best he could conceive of. He probably shouldn't have had children, but that's what people did.
And yes, although she and I have worked it out and have a great relationship, my mother's failure to protect us from my father hurt me at least as much as my father ever did himself.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:00 PM on October 11, 2013 [4 favorites]
Man, I'm the product of an alcoholic, abusive home, and I think y'all are jumping to a lot of conclusions. First, OP, it isn't remotely clear, based on this little information, that divorcing him gets him out of your kids' life forever. That may well be a thing you want to do to get yourself out of your situation, but divorce isn't going to magically make him go away where your kids are concerned; in fact, it's likely to provide opportunities for him to transgress without your supervision, if indeed he is transgressing. But if your case for custody is, "he yells at the kids and then we yell at each other", that's probably not going to get you sole unvisited custody.
Second, he's scaring you, which is bad, and he's scaring your kids, which is bad. But what your 5-year-old said or asked for does not, to my untrained eye, indicate abuse. It indicates that she knows that you can stop him from yelling at her. On the one hand, that's good, she should be able to come to you with that kind of thing. On the other hand, if she's redirecting disciplinary action, it means she knows she can play you two against each other. "Out of the mouths of babes" is often ridiculous; kids that age are learning social interaction and interpersonal dynamics, and they're not above trying stuff.
I don't have any idea what's going on, because you haven't said a lot. Whatever else, you should never feel scared. Your kids should never feel unsafe. But I can't say that your kids should never feel scared, within boundaries, because that's ridiculous, kids get scared until they learn not to be scared about that thing anymore, and "wait until Dad gets home" is an effective warning in many a well-adjusted household. "I'm scared of him" is a perfectly valid reason to divorce him, if you choose to go that way. It won't protect your kids from him, though, not by itself. There may be much more you're not telling us, which is fine, but if the choices are between "divorce him" and "help him work on his behavior", I have to say that you should help him work on his behavior, regardless of whether you divorce him.
posted by Errant at 9:40 PM on October 11, 2013 [5 favorites]
Second, he's scaring you, which is bad, and he's scaring your kids, which is bad. But what your 5-year-old said or asked for does not, to my untrained eye, indicate abuse. It indicates that she knows that you can stop him from yelling at her. On the one hand, that's good, she should be able to come to you with that kind of thing. On the other hand, if she's redirecting disciplinary action, it means she knows she can play you two against each other. "Out of the mouths of babes" is often ridiculous; kids that age are learning social interaction and interpersonal dynamics, and they're not above trying stuff.
I don't have any idea what's going on, because you haven't said a lot. Whatever else, you should never feel scared. Your kids should never feel unsafe. But I can't say that your kids should never feel scared, within boundaries, because that's ridiculous, kids get scared until they learn not to be scared about that thing anymore, and "wait until Dad gets home" is an effective warning in many a well-adjusted household. "I'm scared of him" is a perfectly valid reason to divorce him, if you choose to go that way. It won't protect your kids from him, though, not by itself. There may be much more you're not telling us, which is fine, but if the choices are between "divorce him" and "help him work on his behavior", I have to say that you should help him work on his behavior, regardless of whether you divorce him.
posted by Errant at 9:40 PM on October 11, 2013 [5 favorites]
Please, put your kids first. I will never, ever forget my mother flat-out telling me that she would always put her marriage to my step-father before me and/or my sibling. And my step-father is a good, kind man who wouldn't hurt or even scare a fly.
You chose this relationship. Your children didn't. They have no choices, no power. If they are scared, there is a reason, and it is your responsibility to address that reason by whatever means are necessary.
posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 10:39 PM on October 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
You chose this relationship. Your children didn't. They have no choices, no power. If they are scared, there is a reason, and it is your responsibility to address that reason by whatever means are necessary.
posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 10:39 PM on October 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
There's nothing I can add to what other posters have said but emphasize how abusive this situation appears and how important it is to take action to remedy this by whatever means necessary.
posted by Middlemarch at 1:49 AM on October 12, 2013
posted by Middlemarch at 1:49 AM on October 12, 2013
Generally speaking, I disagree with those insisting on putting the children first. Your relationship with their father existed prior to their birth, and should your marriage be successful, will continue to exist after they fly the nest and begin their own independent lives. Additionally, there's really not enough information to make a definitive statement in regard to your husband's behaviour, but I do know children are inherently narcissistic and manipulative. If they perceive you a, "soft touch", they most certainly will attempt to use you as a tool to avoid the consequences of bad behaviour (particularly if your husband is the primary disciplinarian in the household).
posted by Nibiru at 3:24 PM on October 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Nibiru at 3:24 PM on October 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by bearwife at 12:47 PM on October 11, 2013 [2 favorites]