They're not sending us back, are they?
October 9, 2013 2:37 PM Subscribe
Two plainclothes detectives showed up tonight at our door. They claimed that a lewd picture had been sent from one of our cellphones to another person. We truthfully told them we knew nothing about it. They asked very few questions, mostly to confirm our identity, said "no one's in trouble but no-one should be sending stuff like this" and left. What should we do/expect now? Details inside. (Ontario, CA)
Hi guys. I am shaken but will try my best to leave emotion out of this. For context, we recently emigrated to Canada from a very troubled country in the "global south", and although I know better than to talk to the police without a lawyer present, I am quite terrified of police/authority due to terrible experiences in my previous country (sth like PTSD i guess) -- so when they showed up out of the blue at our home I just slipped back into "just answer their questions and they'll go" mode. I don't think I said anything that could hurt my family, hope that's the case.
So here are the facts: An hour or two after sunset our bell rang. Two plainclothes cops identified themselves. They asked if anyone at home had a certain phone number. In my state of mind I couldn't remember so they called it -- and one of our children's phones rang. (Let's call our kid "Pat". Pat's a minor btw). They then said that a naked picture had been sent from Pat's phone to a 3rd party. In my stupor I didn't ask what was their evidence for this, I only thought of asking the accuser's age; they told me it was an adult. I then went through Pat's phone's messages in front of them, and there was no such message there. And, the date/time they gave for the message was at a time when Pat was home with us (not long ago). After we expressed our surprise, and corroborated a few details such as our names, they said something to the effect of "no-one is in trouble, but Pat shouldn't be sending stuff like that k"? I said "I don't know who sent what, or what's going on but I'll try to find out, here's my card and can I please have yours". We got their card, and they left. After a quick google their identity checks out as local cops.
Some more data:
* They said the nude picture did not have a face, and that the genitals in the picture were a different gender from Pat's
* Naturally we had a nice long chat with Pat after they left, who swears s/he never sent anything. I am an eternal skeptic, but it's hard not to believe Pat especially because s/he was with us at the time of the message. Plus Pat's even a different gender.
* BUT! Pat told us something weird had happened on the morning after the purported picture was sent: An unknown number started texting Pat, asking "who is this". When Pat refused to identify themselves this person called, and when Pat didn't answer they left an expletive-laden voicemail. Unfortunately this VM msg is lost, but Pat's friend also listened to it. Pat is sorry about not telling us about this earlier, but s/he just blew this off as some prank caller and didn't think much of it.
* The (limited) message logs available at the cellphone provider's website support Pat's version of the facts.
* We are not yet citizens and plan to apply for citizenship shortly, which makes this accusation all the more concerning.
Questions:
* Now what? We haven't been charged, but should we expect charges to be laid anytime soon?
* Should we go to the police station and find out what's going on, and maybe make a statement for the record? More specifically, should we go and ask them to show us their evidence?
* Or, should we simply lawyer up? Although no one has been charged yet, my gut tells me to keep expecting the unexpected and to prepare for the worst.
* In your experience, what do you think is going on? I find this to be a bizarre situation: if they had hard evidence, they surely would've laid charges, right? Because if they only have an accusation with no proof, why bother driving out to someone's home? Or (god i hope not) does it sound like they're putting a case together and they just came to confirm a few details?
* In a worst-case scenario, could this have any effect on our future citizenship application? After the hell we went through in our previous country, I think I can speak for all of us when I say I can't imagine a worst fate than being sent back.
As you can imagine, this is very stressful. Not being citizens yet makes us feel like we're standing on super shaky ground. I don't even know if sending nudies is a serious enough crime to send either of us back home (which means we would all go back home, since we're all we've got). To top this off, we can't really afford a lawyer atm, we were finally feeling at ease in our new country and recently put our savings towards a mortgage down payment.
Thanks for reading. Apologies if this was overly long. I'm just shaken since we went through a lot escaping our previous country, and I just want my family to feel safe in their new home. We've been nothing but model citizens in our new home, and this situation is simply surreal.
I've set up the following email in case you want to get in touch with me directly: throw441587@gmail.com. I'll also try and answer any questions you post on this thread via the contact form. (Thanks mods btw for accomodating anonymous questions, and apologies in advance for any inconveniences.)
Thank you all.
Hi guys. I am shaken but will try my best to leave emotion out of this. For context, we recently emigrated to Canada from a very troubled country in the "global south", and although I know better than to talk to the police without a lawyer present, I am quite terrified of police/authority due to terrible experiences in my previous country (sth like PTSD i guess) -- so when they showed up out of the blue at our home I just slipped back into "just answer their questions and they'll go" mode. I don't think I said anything that could hurt my family, hope that's the case.
So here are the facts: An hour or two after sunset our bell rang. Two plainclothes cops identified themselves. They asked if anyone at home had a certain phone number. In my state of mind I couldn't remember so they called it -- and one of our children's phones rang. (Let's call our kid "Pat". Pat's a minor btw). They then said that a naked picture had been sent from Pat's phone to a 3rd party. In my stupor I didn't ask what was their evidence for this, I only thought of asking the accuser's age; they told me it was an adult. I then went through Pat's phone's messages in front of them, and there was no such message there. And, the date/time they gave for the message was at a time when Pat was home with us (not long ago). After we expressed our surprise, and corroborated a few details such as our names, they said something to the effect of "no-one is in trouble, but Pat shouldn't be sending stuff like that k"? I said "I don't know who sent what, or what's going on but I'll try to find out, here's my card and can I please have yours". We got their card, and they left. After a quick google their identity checks out as local cops.
Some more data:
* They said the nude picture did not have a face, and that the genitals in the picture were a different gender from Pat's
* Naturally we had a nice long chat with Pat after they left, who swears s/he never sent anything. I am an eternal skeptic, but it's hard not to believe Pat especially because s/he was with us at the time of the message. Plus Pat's even a different gender.
* BUT! Pat told us something weird had happened on the morning after the purported picture was sent: An unknown number started texting Pat, asking "who is this". When Pat refused to identify themselves this person called, and when Pat didn't answer they left an expletive-laden voicemail. Unfortunately this VM msg is lost, but Pat's friend also listened to it. Pat is sorry about not telling us about this earlier, but s/he just blew this off as some prank caller and didn't think much of it.
* The (limited) message logs available at the cellphone provider's website support Pat's version of the facts.
* We are not yet citizens and plan to apply for citizenship shortly, which makes this accusation all the more concerning.
Questions:
* Now what? We haven't been charged, but should we expect charges to be laid anytime soon?
* Should we go to the police station and find out what's going on, and maybe make a statement for the record? More specifically, should we go and ask them to show us their evidence?
* Or, should we simply lawyer up? Although no one has been charged yet, my gut tells me to keep expecting the unexpected and to prepare for the worst.
* In your experience, what do you think is going on? I find this to be a bizarre situation: if they had hard evidence, they surely would've laid charges, right? Because if they only have an accusation with no proof, why bother driving out to someone's home? Or (god i hope not) does it sound like they're putting a case together and they just came to confirm a few details?
* In a worst-case scenario, could this have any effect on our future citizenship application? After the hell we went through in our previous country, I think I can speak for all of us when I say I can't imagine a worst fate than being sent back.
As you can imagine, this is very stressful. Not being citizens yet makes us feel like we're standing on super shaky ground. I don't even know if sending nudies is a serious enough crime to send either of us back home (which means we would all go back home, since we're all we've got). To top this off, we can't really afford a lawyer atm, we were finally feeling at ease in our new country and recently put our savings towards a mortgage down payment.
Thanks for reading. Apologies if this was overly long. I'm just shaken since we went through a lot escaping our previous country, and I just want my family to feel safe in their new home. We've been nothing but model citizens in our new home, and this situation is simply surreal.
I've set up the following email in case you want to get in touch with me directly: throw441587@gmail.com. I'll also try and answer any questions you post on this thread via the contact form. (Thanks mods btw for accomodating anonymous questions, and apologies in advance for any inconveniences.)
Thank you all.
I live in Canada. I think you were set up. You should probably talk to the police and explain what happened, since it is not good to have people running around posing as police and asking questions of a sexual nature.
You might want to talk to an immigrant services organization like Vancouver's SUCCESS to see what they would recommend (they may have good relations with the police or a lawyer).
In future, ask to see a badge and ask to talk to a lawyer. Don't open your door to strangers.
posted by KokuRyu at 2:47 PM on October 9, 2013 [7 favorites]
You might want to talk to an immigrant services organization like Vancouver's SUCCESS to see what they would recommend (they may have good relations with the police or a lawyer).
In future, ask to see a badge and ask to talk to a lawyer. Don't open your door to strangers.
posted by KokuRyu at 2:47 PM on October 9, 2013 [7 favorites]
Spoofing of phone numbers for calls and MMS (picture texts) is relatively easy, and given Pat's story about receiving angry messages, it seems pretty likely to me that's what happened here. This could be true whether or not the cops are legitimate (this can be determined with a call to the precinct).
If your son's phone number was spoofed and used to send dirty pictures, that is something that could be easily demonstrated by looking at cell phone records - the call or text doesn't actually originate from your son's phone, it just appears to.
posted by muddgirl at 2:53 PM on October 9, 2013 [23 favorites]
If your son's phone number was spoofed and used to send dirty pictures, that is something that could be easily demonstrated by looking at cell phone records - the call or text doesn't actually originate from your son's phone, it just appears to.
posted by muddgirl at 2:53 PM on October 9, 2013 [23 favorites]
I would call the police station and ask if these were legitimate detectives (anybody could print fake cards).
posted by Dansaman at 3:00 PM on October 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Dansaman at 3:00 PM on October 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
Wikipedia article on spoofing. I'd be surprised if the issue went any further than this. One thing you could do is notify your cell provider (who might be able to figure out who sent the messages) and ask to have Pat's cell number changed.
posted by ghost dance beat at 3:25 PM on October 9, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by ghost dance beat at 3:25 PM on October 9, 2013 [3 favorites]
Two plainclothes cops identified themselves. [...] After a quick google their identity checks out as local cops.
Let's give the poster the benefit of the doubt that they saw badges, etc., and were sufficiently convinced these were police officers.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 3:32 PM on October 9, 2013 [5 favorites]
Let's give the poster the benefit of the doubt that they saw badges, etc., and were sufficiently convinced these were police officers.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 3:32 PM on October 9, 2013 [5 favorites]
We got their card, and they left. After a quick google their identity checks out as local cops.
I'm not sure why people are advising that they were not legitimate police officers.
If it were me, I'd have another talk with Pat. It's normal to be curious about bodies and sex, it's normal to masturbate, etc. etc., but child pornography is illegal (and utterly wrong) and the consequences are serious. If he knows anything, he needs to tell you right now. If somebody sent him a picture, and he passed it along as a lark, he needs to say so.
The ACLU is for the US, but I think this still gives some insight into things even if it's slightly different in Canada: Retention Periods of Major Cellular Service Providers. The main point for Pat is that telephone companies keep and provide information it to police officers who have warrants. It's possible that the police already have all the information they need, and it's also possible that they don't, but can get it.
posted by Houstonian at 3:32 PM on October 9, 2013
I'm not sure why people are advising that they were not legitimate police officers.
If it were me, I'd have another talk with Pat. It's normal to be curious about bodies and sex, it's normal to masturbate, etc. etc., but child pornography is illegal (and utterly wrong) and the consequences are serious. If he knows anything, he needs to tell you right now. If somebody sent him a picture, and he passed it along as a lark, he needs to say so.
The ACLU is for the US, but I think this still gives some insight into things even if it's slightly different in Canada: Retention Periods of Major Cellular Service Providers. The main point for Pat is that telephone companies keep and provide information it to police officers who have warrants. It's possible that the police already have all the information they need, and it's also possible that they don't, but can get it.
posted by Houstonian at 3:32 PM on October 9, 2013
I'm confused. What would the charges be? Did they specify that the photo was of a minor?
posted by Lutoslawski at 3:35 PM on October 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Lutoslawski at 3:35 PM on October 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
I forgot to mention, if it were me I'd also just locate the names and numbers of a few attorneys -- nothing else just yet. Maybe the police were just warning you that the parent of a child Pat's age caught them doing things that they didn't approve of (in which case they won't come back, assuming Pat's sufficiently swayed to not do it again). Or maybe they were wrong. But if Pat's actually got himself into real trouble, they will be back. That's when you will want to have attorney numbers handy, instead of trying to find someone while you are upset.
Also, if in Canada people use immigration attorneys and you have one, I'd let them know just to get answers to questions how your status would be affected in different scenarios.
posted by Houstonian at 3:39 PM on October 9, 2013
Also, if in Canada people use immigration attorneys and you have one, I'd let them know just to get answers to questions how your status would be affected in different scenarios.
posted by Houstonian at 3:39 PM on October 9, 2013
Can you go through Pat's computer together with him/her? Your kid might be a poster on a board where kids and young adults troll each other. I mention this because it seems odd that Pat didn't tell you about that voice message. S/he might think he's participating anonymously and it's gotten out of hand.
posted by vincele at 3:42 PM on October 9, 2013
posted by vincele at 3:42 PM on October 9, 2013
* In your experience, what do you think is going on?
My guess: I think someone, most likely a person who doesn't even know you or your kid, spoofed your kids number and sent a nude picture to somebody else who went to the police. I find that a little surprising, and also the fact that the police would follow up on it, so my imagination would guess that this was part of some ongoing harassment for the poor recipient. You were unlucky to be caught up in it.
posted by jacalata at 3:43 PM on October 9, 2013 [22 favorites]
My guess: I think someone, most likely a person who doesn't even know you or your kid, spoofed your kids number and sent a nude picture to somebody else who went to the police. I find that a little surprising, and also the fact that the police would follow up on it, so my imagination would guess that this was part of some ongoing harassment for the poor recipient. You were unlucky to be caught up in it.
posted by jacalata at 3:43 PM on October 9, 2013 [22 favorites]
I agree wholeheartedly with jacalata -- the fact that your cell phone provider's records show that Pat did not send the message back this up. Someone spoofed Pat's phone number -- probably as a random choice of digits -- in order to harass someone else. It was unlucky that it got looped back to you. I don't think you need to worry about it unless something else happens, in which case, as you know, don't say anything and lawyer up. But I don't think you need to be doing any preemptive lawyering, though Houstonian's point about finding some phone numbers, just in case, is a good idea.
posted by brainmouse at 3:58 PM on October 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by brainmouse at 3:58 PM on October 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
Seconding Jacalata.
It would seem like this would be fairly easy to prove one way or another by checking the phone log with the cell provider. What seems weird to me (maybe because I live in a different country with different laws) is that the cops would bother coming all the way out to yout house for one instance of a naked pic of an adult sent to an adult. If they went to the trouble to get your address (presumably from the phone records) its seems like they should have at least taken the time to verify that your child's phone was indeed the number where the message orriginated. Something about all this isn't adding up. I'd talk to a lawyer and then maybe the cops. Out of curriosty if nothing else. I would expect an initial consultation with a laywer would not cost thst much.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 4:04 PM on October 9, 2013
It would seem like this would be fairly easy to prove one way or another by checking the phone log with the cell provider. What seems weird to me (maybe because I live in a different country with different laws) is that the cops would bother coming all the way out to yout house for one instance of a naked pic of an adult sent to an adult. If they went to the trouble to get your address (presumably from the phone records) its seems like they should have at least taken the time to verify that your child's phone was indeed the number where the message orriginated. Something about all this isn't adding up. I'd talk to a lawyer and then maybe the cops. Out of curriosty if nothing else. I would expect an initial consultation with a laywer would not cost thst much.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 4:04 PM on October 9, 2013
If the provider's records are not showing that the message was sent, it does more likely point to spoofing. However if it was sent from something like WhatsApp itmight not show up on the carrier's records. WhatsApp I believe uses "data" not "messages" (gets around message limits, allows you to send international messages) but does use your phone number to identify you. I'm not saying your kid is lying, I'm just saying it's possible to send a "picture message" with an app other than the phone's built-in messaging app.
posted by radioamy at 4:40 PM on October 9, 2013
posted by radioamy at 4:40 PM on October 9, 2013
i think i may have an idea of what happened as i had something similar but g-rated happen recently. i have a friend liza and she likes to text photos to her friends through group texts. i would respond to these texts and i believe my texts only went to her but not to the rest of the group. i think she may have gotten a new phone because suddenly my text responses to her photo text seemed to be going to the others on the group text. or, maybe they somehow got forwarded to other friends of hers somehow when i responded to her. i know this because i started getting texts from some random guy asking me who i was. i said i didn't text him. he kept saying i did and when he said something like you look good in those sunglasses i figured out he somehow got the pic liza sent of herself looking tough in sunglasses. long story short he was a friend of liza's and somehow my response text to liza, along with the picture liza sent me, went to this random dude who is a friend of liza's. weird. it very much sounds like you had something similar happen.
posted by wildflower at 4:40 PM on October 9, 2013
posted by wildflower at 4:40 PM on October 9, 2013
Although no one has been charged yet, my gut tells me to keep expecting the unexpected and to prepare for the worst.
I live in Canada -- welcome! I have absolutely no special legal or law enforcement knowledge, but I would be extremely surprised if you ever heard about this again. It seems like there was some spoofing, or perhaps at worst a prank by one of Pat's friends. It was probably part of a whole bunch of harassment or stalking, as someone said above, which is why they drove out to check.
It sounds like the cops said, "Hey, everything's cool, but just keep an eye on your kid and make sure they're not getting into trouble." Based on what you've written here, were I you I would not worry about it.
posted by jess at 4:55 PM on October 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
I live in Canada -- welcome! I have absolutely no special legal or law enforcement knowledge, but I would be extremely surprised if you ever heard about this again. It seems like there was some spoofing, or perhaps at worst a prank by one of Pat's friends. It was probably part of a whole bunch of harassment or stalking, as someone said above, which is why they drove out to check.
It sounds like the cops said, "Hey, everything's cool, but just keep an eye on your kid and make sure they're not getting into trouble." Based on what you've written here, were I you I would not worry about it.
posted by jess at 4:55 PM on October 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
Probably nothing. But in the event that it's something like hal_c_on described, this page has some resources/groups that might be of assistance? In particular, if you fall below the income thresholds, you may be eligible for free legal aid.
posted by eviemath at 5:36 PM on October 9, 2013
posted by eviemath at 5:36 PM on October 9, 2013
I'm not sure why people are advising that they were not legitimate police officers.
I'm surprised that the people who are saying these were real police officers aren't repeating my advice: talk to a lawyer. The CLU is a total red herring.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:26 PM on October 9, 2013
I'm surprised that the people who are saying these were real police officers aren't repeating my advice: talk to a lawyer. The CLU is a total red herring.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:26 PM on October 9, 2013
I would talk to a lawyer.
I don't think you need to be too worried about your citizenship just yet...this may not end up pointing at you. But please talk to a lawyer to make sure you are covered.
Are you familiar with the Rehtaeh Parsons case? Recently, it's come to the attention of Canadian police that even a minor distributing photos of another minor is illegal. In the Parsons case, people were allegedly sharing photos of an alleged sexual assault. This has happened in other provinces too - there was a case in Pitt Meadows, BC too. I believe there was a court case recently that made it more clear that sharing photos of naked teens, even if you are a naked teen, is classified as child pornography. So perhaps these police officers were investigating something along those lines.
So talk to a lawyer and talk to SUCCESS. And tell Pat and any other children that they cannot take or share photographs of unclothed teens or children. They may not get that taking a photo of a partner and emailing it to even that partner is potentially illegal. Make it clear.
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 11:03 PM on October 9, 2013
I don't think you need to be too worried about your citizenship just yet...this may not end up pointing at you. But please talk to a lawyer to make sure you are covered.
Are you familiar with the Rehtaeh Parsons case? Recently, it's come to the attention of Canadian police that even a minor distributing photos of another minor is illegal. In the Parsons case, people were allegedly sharing photos of an alleged sexual assault. This has happened in other provinces too - there was a case in Pitt Meadows, BC too. I believe there was a court case recently that made it more clear that sharing photos of naked teens, even if you are a naked teen, is classified as child pornography. So perhaps these police officers were investigating something along those lines.
So talk to a lawyer and talk to SUCCESS. And tell Pat and any other children that they cannot take or share photographs of unclothed teens or children. They may not get that taking a photo of a partner and emailing it to even that partner is potentially illegal. Make it clear.
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 11:03 PM on October 9, 2013
Talk to an immigration lawyer and be sure you don't take any action that might jeopardize your status. Seriously.
What kind of phone? It's possible to recover data from an android phone. I would document the phone provider's data, the ease of spoofing numbers, and maybe talk to the detectives, and/or the chief.
You might want to consider if another kid or adult is harassing Pat by spoofing Pat's number, and consider that person is sending porn to somebody else, maybe another minor. If it's someone in Pat's life, you might be somewhat concerned. The police should be considering this.
Make sure that Pat understands that anything remotely sex-related that has to do with minors can result in lifelong pain and trouble. I'm not paranoid; I know a young person who's now on the US Sex Offender list for stupid behavior.
posted by theora55 at 6:24 AM on October 10, 2013
What kind of phone? It's possible to recover data from an android phone. I would document the phone provider's data, the ease of spoofing numbers, and maybe talk to the detectives, and/or the chief.
You might want to consider if another kid or adult is harassing Pat by spoofing Pat's number, and consider that person is sending porn to somebody else, maybe another minor. If it's someone in Pat's life, you might be somewhat concerned. The police should be considering this.
Make sure that Pat understands that anything remotely sex-related that has to do with minors can result in lifelong pain and trouble. I'm not paranoid; I know a young person who's now on the US Sex Offender list for stupid behavior.
posted by theora55 at 6:24 AM on October 10, 2013
So, especially if the photo was one of a minor, then they are pursuing a underage pornography issue. The photo was probably sent to many people, from one person or via a chain of people who received and sent on. The notion that your child's number was spoofed is a good one.
Local police here (in the US) have investigated similar incidents. In one case, it was middle school-aged children who had forwarded onto friends a photo of someone naive enough to send a photo of themselves to someone they liked.
Everyone who received and then forwarded it on was brought in and charged with various offenses, most pleaded down. Those who received but didn't send were ok, especially if they had deleted it.
I imagine the local cops got wind of the photo, and from the one number, they got the phone records, tracked back and identified any phone numbers in the chain. So they are in the process of identifying those who were spoofed, and who were the real culprits.
Police are dealing with more and more of this kind of cyber crime. They pull phone records and verify. So looks like they most likely are done with you, and are pursuing whatever leads they have.
But, you could always give a call into the station, as for a head detective, ask them if there is anything else that will involve you, or if you can forget about it. If they say it's an active investigation, see about consulting a lawyer just to make sure. But otherwise, I would think they're done with you.
I'm not a lawyer or a law enforcement agent, but I've seen these incidents happen.
posted by rich at 7:04 AM on October 10, 2013
Local police here (in the US) have investigated similar incidents. In one case, it was middle school-aged children who had forwarded onto friends a photo of someone naive enough to send a photo of themselves to someone they liked.
Everyone who received and then forwarded it on was brought in and charged with various offenses, most pleaded down. Those who received but didn't send were ok, especially if they had deleted it.
I imagine the local cops got wind of the photo, and from the one number, they got the phone records, tracked back and identified any phone numbers in the chain. So they are in the process of identifying those who were spoofed, and who were the real culprits.
Police are dealing with more and more of this kind of cyber crime. They pull phone records and verify. So looks like they most likely are done with you, and are pursuing whatever leads they have.
But, you could always give a call into the station, as for a head detective, ask them if there is anything else that will involve you, or if you can forget about it. If they say it's an active investigation, see about consulting a lawyer just to make sure. But otherwise, I would think they're done with you.
I'm not a lawyer or a law enforcement agent, but I've seen these incidents happen.
posted by rich at 7:04 AM on October 10, 2013
I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. I'm sorry that this happened to your family. It sounds very unpleasant.
From the perspective of a Canadian with secure citizenship, based on my experience interacting with police, if this happened to me I would be disturbed but reasonably satisfied that the matter was at an end. However, given your status and your own history with police/authority elsewhere as you describe it, your post gives the impression that it may be more difficult for you to rest easy without some more concrete reassurance that this is over.
The "spoofing" theory posited by others above sounds very plausible to me, but "protesting too much" might also attract more investigative attention of the kind that has caused you so much anxiety already. That being the case, I wouldn't approach the police with any additional theories, evidence or explanations without first consulting your immigration lawyer (if you don't have one currently, you'll need one again eventually) and/or a lawyer to whom he or she can refer you who has relevant criminal law expertise.
"I don't even know if sending nudies is a serious enough crime to send either of us back home..."
Setting aside the "spoofing" theory, I would think that a minor sending a single nude image of an adult to an unwilling/unawares adult recipient on one single occasion is unlikely to be considered so serious a crime in light of the circumstances you describe in your post. If it rose to the level of harassment (by which I mean, if it took place again after and against the protestations of the recipient) I would guess that it would be treated differently.
Again, based on your description, the behaviour of the police at your door would suggest to me, had it happened to my family, that a stern warning not to do this again had been issued and that was that. It may be possible to approach the police to persuade them that "this" was never "done" by your child at all in the first place; on the other hand, it may be better to document that this is the case for yourself and leave it be (and retain your evidence should the matter arise later).
If you feel this will cast a pall over your life until it is resolved, then it may be difficult to leave your many questions unanswered - and we, here, cannot give you the answers you need. The best advice about this would most assuredly come from lawyer(s).
posted by onshi at 1:28 PM on October 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
From the perspective of a Canadian with secure citizenship, based on my experience interacting with police, if this happened to me I would be disturbed but reasonably satisfied that the matter was at an end. However, given your status and your own history with police/authority elsewhere as you describe it, your post gives the impression that it may be more difficult for you to rest easy without some more concrete reassurance that this is over.
The "spoofing" theory posited by others above sounds very plausible to me, but "protesting too much" might also attract more investigative attention of the kind that has caused you so much anxiety already. That being the case, I wouldn't approach the police with any additional theories, evidence or explanations without first consulting your immigration lawyer (if you don't have one currently, you'll need one again eventually) and/or a lawyer to whom he or she can refer you who has relevant criminal law expertise.
"I don't even know if sending nudies is a serious enough crime to send either of us back home..."
Setting aside the "spoofing" theory, I would think that a minor sending a single nude image of an adult to an unwilling/unawares adult recipient on one single occasion is unlikely to be considered so serious a crime in light of the circumstances you describe in your post. If it rose to the level of harassment (by which I mean, if it took place again after and against the protestations of the recipient) I would guess that it would be treated differently.
Again, based on your description, the behaviour of the police at your door would suggest to me, had it happened to my family, that a stern warning not to do this again had been issued and that was that. It may be possible to approach the police to persuade them that "this" was never "done" by your child at all in the first place; on the other hand, it may be better to document that this is the case for yourself and leave it be (and retain your evidence should the matter arise later).
If you feel this will cast a pall over your life until it is resolved, then it may be difficult to leave your many questions unanswered - and we, here, cannot give you the answers you need. The best advice about this would most assuredly come from lawyer(s).
posted by onshi at 1:28 PM on October 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Hello there anonymous, I'm a cop in a medium sized Canadian city and I'm here to tell you you have nothing to worry about. I'll answer all your questions below in detail as well.
Let me start out by saying it's not a crime to send a nude photo of an adult (once) to a random person, but it might amount to Criminal Harassment (CC 264) or Harassing Telephone calls (CC 372(2)) (note its subsection 2, not 1) if it keeps happening.
So here's what happened as far as I can tell. Someone got a nude message on their phone and complainted to the police. The police want it to stop so they can conclude their file and go on to something else. They figure either 1) you kid did it 2) they have no idea who did it. So in case it was 1 (or some variation on 1 in which it's your or another family member) they stop by and say "STOP IT".
If it never happens again they're happy. If it keeps happening and you're the ones doing it then they make any future charges under the section above really easy for themselves to prove because they've told you to stop. So they don't have to prove you knew it was unwanted, they'd just have to prove it was you. Which it probably isn't because of the way phones work and how easy it is to fake all that.
Fun fact: Carding a person to a file for any police database in Canada requires name and Date of Birth. If they didn't ask for your exact name and date of birth (or your kids) they they don't even intend to formally list you on the file. If they did it doesn't mean you're a suspect, technically they SHOULD have got that info just because they spoke to you, but lots of officers will try to keep your name off the system if there's no good reason to have it there.
* Now what? We haven't been charged, but should we expect charges to be laid anytime soon?
->No. Assuming that either a) they believed you OR b) the messages stop, you'll likely never hear from them again.
* Should we go to the police station and find out what's going on, and maybe make a statement for the record? More specifically, should we go and ask them to show us their evidence?
->Good heavens no. You don't need to give a statement and they're under no obligation to show you any evidence, which is likely just a photo of an MMS message anyway.
* Or, should we simply lawyer up? Although no one has been charged yet, my gut tells me to keep expecting the unexpected and to prepare for the worst.
-> There's really no point. If they come back and want anything else THEN you should shut up and talk to a lawyer first.
* In your experience, what do you think is going on? I find this to be a bizarre situation: if they had hard evidence, they surely would've laid charges, right? Because if they only have an accusation with no proof, why bother driving out to someone's home? Or (god i hope not) does it sound like they're putting a case together and they just came to confirm a few details?
-> As I said above, one incident RARELY makes a harassment charge of any type. One visit from the cops usually puts to a stop 99% of harassment (other than domestic, but random strangers, unhappy customers, etc. those people usually give up when the cops indicate they know what's going on). The cops are doing their due diligence, they know there's a 99% chance that the person sending random porn messages isn't using their own phone, but they had a number and it wasn't from the other side of the world so they drove over and asked about it. Look at it from their perspective, it's easier to do that and bug you for 10 minutes than it is to try to explain to the victim AND the supervisor why they couldn't be bothered.
* In a worst-case scenario, could this have any effect on our future citizenship application? After the hell we went through in our previous country, I think I can speak for all of us when I say I can't imagine a worst fate than being sent back.
->I'm not really an expert in Citizenship stuff. This will depend on a couple of things. First of all, have you already submitted your background check and police records checks to Citizenship and Immigration Canada? That stuff doesn't follow automatically so frankly if you commit a crime the day after you submit that stuff it would be totally dependent on whether the officer investigating the crime notices your citizenship status and follows up with CIC. Secondly, there's a big difference between showing up on a police file and being a "suspect chargeable" and then to being convicted. For a CIC application, as far as I know, only convictions would matter. Being a "suspect chargeable" (ie we could have charged the person but didn't for some reason - usually because it wasn't in the public interest, such as a first time offender stealing a candy bar, or due to lack of admissible evidence, like the witness said the person did it but also said they wouldn't come to court) is usually only disclosed for sensitive background checks, like if someone will be working with young children or other vulnerable people.
Speaking of Citizenship status, other than showing me your passport or me randomly deciding to call CIC on the phone and ask there is NO automatic computer check that shows a police officer in Canada what your immigration stauts is. Also, the police DO NOT CARE, unless you have an immigration warrant. CIC issued warrants for some people who they want to remove and those show up the same place normal criminal arrest warrants do, on CPIC. This is to say that if your Canadian friend and your Permanent Resident friend and your refugee friend and your visitor visa friend all get pulled over for speeding and all show me their provincial driver's license to prove their ID I would have a) no idea b) no care, as to their legal status in the country.
Cops in Canada are often really nice people. I'm anonymous on here because there are people in my bureaucracy who would have issues with this; and also so you can't sue me if I give bad advice. I am not a lawyer, not your lawyer, and basing my advice only on what you told me, I haven't read anything on the police side of the file so if you left something out that's on you, not on me.
But speaking of really nice if you want to send me Metafilter-mail I am willing to speak to you on the phone at more length about this, anonymously or otherwise (that is I'll identify myself, but you don't have to.)
Also if you mail the admins on this site they can sometimes post follow-up comments on your behalf to the anonymous thread. So if you have more questions but want to stay REALLY anonymous then you can do that as well.
posted by BlueSock at 1:36 PM on October 11, 2013 [4 favorites]
Let me start out by saying it's not a crime to send a nude photo of an adult (once) to a random person, but it might amount to Criminal Harassment (CC 264) or Harassing Telephone calls (CC 372(2)) (note its subsection 2, not 1) if it keeps happening.
So here's what happened as far as I can tell. Someone got a nude message on their phone and complainted to the police. The police want it to stop so they can conclude their file and go on to something else. They figure either 1) you kid did it 2) they have no idea who did it. So in case it was 1 (or some variation on 1 in which it's your or another family member) they stop by and say "STOP IT".
If it never happens again they're happy. If it keeps happening and you're the ones doing it then they make any future charges under the section above really easy for themselves to prove because they've told you to stop. So they don't have to prove you knew it was unwanted, they'd just have to prove it was you. Which it probably isn't because of the way phones work and how easy it is to fake all that.
Fun fact: Carding a person to a file for any police database in Canada requires name and Date of Birth. If they didn't ask for your exact name and date of birth (or your kids) they they don't even intend to formally list you on the file. If they did it doesn't mean you're a suspect, technically they SHOULD have got that info just because they spoke to you, but lots of officers will try to keep your name off the system if there's no good reason to have it there.
* Now what? We haven't been charged, but should we expect charges to be laid anytime soon?
->No. Assuming that either a) they believed you OR b) the messages stop, you'll likely never hear from them again.
* Should we go to the police station and find out what's going on, and maybe make a statement for the record? More specifically, should we go and ask them to show us their evidence?
->Good heavens no. You don't need to give a statement and they're under no obligation to show you any evidence, which is likely just a photo of an MMS message anyway.
* Or, should we simply lawyer up? Although no one has been charged yet, my gut tells me to keep expecting the unexpected and to prepare for the worst.
-> There's really no point. If they come back and want anything else THEN you should shut up and talk to a lawyer first.
* In your experience, what do you think is going on? I find this to be a bizarre situation: if they had hard evidence, they surely would've laid charges, right? Because if they only have an accusation with no proof, why bother driving out to someone's home? Or (god i hope not) does it sound like they're putting a case together and they just came to confirm a few details?
-> As I said above, one incident RARELY makes a harassment charge of any type. One visit from the cops usually puts to a stop 99% of harassment (other than domestic, but random strangers, unhappy customers, etc. those people usually give up when the cops indicate they know what's going on). The cops are doing their due diligence, they know there's a 99% chance that the person sending random porn messages isn't using their own phone, but they had a number and it wasn't from the other side of the world so they drove over and asked about it. Look at it from their perspective, it's easier to do that and bug you for 10 minutes than it is to try to explain to the victim AND the supervisor why they couldn't be bothered.
* In a worst-case scenario, could this have any effect on our future citizenship application? After the hell we went through in our previous country, I think I can speak for all of us when I say I can't imagine a worst fate than being sent back.
->I'm not really an expert in Citizenship stuff. This will depend on a couple of things. First of all, have you already submitted your background check and police records checks to Citizenship and Immigration Canada? That stuff doesn't follow automatically so frankly if you commit a crime the day after you submit that stuff it would be totally dependent on whether the officer investigating the crime notices your citizenship status and follows up with CIC. Secondly, there's a big difference between showing up on a police file and being a "suspect chargeable" and then to being convicted. For a CIC application, as far as I know, only convictions would matter. Being a "suspect chargeable" (ie we could have charged the person but didn't for some reason - usually because it wasn't in the public interest, such as a first time offender stealing a candy bar, or due to lack of admissible evidence, like the witness said the person did it but also said they wouldn't come to court) is usually only disclosed for sensitive background checks, like if someone will be working with young children or other vulnerable people.
Speaking of Citizenship status, other than showing me your passport or me randomly deciding to call CIC on the phone and ask there is NO automatic computer check that shows a police officer in Canada what your immigration stauts is. Also, the police DO NOT CARE, unless you have an immigration warrant. CIC issued warrants for some people who they want to remove and those show up the same place normal criminal arrest warrants do, on CPIC. This is to say that if your Canadian friend and your Permanent Resident friend and your refugee friend and your visitor visa friend all get pulled over for speeding and all show me their provincial driver's license to prove their ID I would have a) no idea b) no care, as to their legal status in the country.
Cops in Canada are often really nice people. I'm anonymous on here because there are people in my bureaucracy who would have issues with this; and also so you can't sue me if I give bad advice. I am not a lawyer, not your lawyer, and basing my advice only on what you told me, I haven't read anything on the police side of the file so if you left something out that's on you, not on me.
But speaking of really nice if you want to send me Metafilter-mail I am willing to speak to you on the phone at more length about this, anonymously or otherwise (that is I'll identify myself, but you don't have to.)
Also if you mail the admins on this site they can sometimes post follow-up comments on your behalf to the anonymous thread. So if you have more questions but want to stay REALLY anonymous then you can do that as well.
posted by BlueSock at 1:36 PM on October 11, 2013 [4 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by handful of rain at 2:43 PM on October 9, 2013 [5 favorites]