Can this work if one partner does not find the other attractive?
October 8, 2013 3:37 PM   Subscribe

My boyfriend and I were so happy together, up until two nights ago. I discovered that he had been harboring feelings of how he doesn't find me attractive. He hates this about himself. He feels shallow and secretly hoped this would change over time. Is this relationship over?

Many months ago, I became best friends with a guy at school. We clicked immediately and began spending all of our time together. He became infatuated with me and one day let slip a thought, "physically, I don't know why I would be attracted to you!" He meant it as a positive, indicating how genuine and real his attraction must be. However, there was clearly still an accidental confession that physically, there wouldn't be much of my appearance to draw him to me. I was hurt then but the moment passed since, due to other reasons, I wasn't interested in a relationship with him.

Fast forward to a few days ago. We had continued to grow close and I was warming up to the idea of being with him romantically. We started dating officially one month ago. After a conversation about looks, our tastes, and what constitutes "cute" and "hot" in a girl, I brought back up that comment he had made so long ago. As he tried to explain himself, he said that I am not "traditionally beautiful" but I have a "beauty all my own." That wasn't too reassuring. He finally ends up saying that out of a ten point scale, he would give me a six. I was extremely hurt to discover he didn't find me attractive.

The day after, we continued talking about it. I got the sense that it wasn't just a "yeah, she's not the hottest girl but I love her anyways" kind of thinking. Apparently he had even brought this up with his dad, saying that inside I am more than a ten but outside I am not. He admitted he didn't want to acknowledge how he felt. He said he hoped that this feeling of not finding me attractive would change over time. He hates this about himself and feels shallow. He also has no problem feeling sexually attracted to me. In every other way, he adores me and does not want to lose me.

We are each other's best friends through and through - we spend all of our time together and share everything with each other. We are extremely compatible emotionally and understand the other like no one else. We both admit to being extremely happy with each other. He does not want us to separate but how can I stay with someone who doesn't find me attractive?

I fear he will one day realize that his feelings never changed or worse - he meets someone who is actually is physically attracted to and is willing to leave me for her. (It has happened to me once before.) Is this worth the risk? Is it a maturity / experience issue? Or should I cut my losses now?
posted by anonymous to Human Relations (68 answers total) 7 users marked this as a favorite
 
Here's my opinion of what a person needs out of a relationship, they're pretty big categories:
#1 A physical connection
#2 A mental connection
#3 A spiritual/moral/ethical connection

When you subtract #1, you end up with friends. You both deserve all three. The only maturity and experience issue here is both of you realizing it.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 3:44 PM on October 8, 2013 [17 favorites]


Do you find him to be a "10"?

Really, the whole thing sounds over thought. My husband and I have been together over 12 years now. He's also 10 years older than me, and age is starting to take it's toll.

Doesn't matter one bit. I've always loved him for who he is, not what he looks like (and he looks just fine to me...). Society has a way of telling us what we should or shouldn't find attractive on the outside, but it's the inside you need to be focusing on.

He'll always find someone else more physically attractive - and the same goes for you... YOU'LL always find someone out there more attractive as well. It's the beauty inside that you recognize in each other that keeps a man (or woman) around for the long haul.

Do you love him? He seems to love you, regardless of your self-esteem issue. Hang on to him.
posted by matty at 3:44 PM on October 8, 2013 [17 favorites]


Yes it can work, if you're willing to live with the constant nagging thought that he doesn't find you physically attractive. Can You deal with that? Can you live with being self conscious of your body every time you're naked in front of him, or pass an attractive woman on the street? I couldn't, but that's just me. You say you're deeply compatible, but physical attraction is part of that too. I asked a similar question awhile back.

I don't think I am conventionally attractive, but I have had two long term relationships where I never doubted they were attracted to me.

Also, who actually rates their girlfriend? That's for chumps at bars. If the guy I was dating rated me(and it wasn't a 10, I mean come ON, how dense do you need to be to say your girlfriend is a 6?!) I would tell him to GTFO.
posted by thank you silence at 3:45 PM on October 8, 2013 [39 favorites]


Yikes, that's hurtful that he said that, I'm sorry. My guess is you guys are young, and he needs time to grow up. I don't think he'll ever find you attractive [in the medium term future], but right now he's got exaggerated expectations of himself (what kind of girl he could land) and what beauty really is. What he needs is life experience.

If he has no problem being sexually attracted to you, then what is the problem? He's getting fixated on some flaw, or some standard of beauty, or what he thinks others would think of him for being with you. Ouch.

So, you can date him, like I said my guess is you're young, but I wouldn't make much future plans on him, since this will continue to bother him until he matures. I wouldn't listen to any more of his judgmental crap either, since it belittles you to let him talk about you like you're some object. Once he knows you no longer put up with this kind of superficial BS conversations, his feelings will become pretty clear and then you can decide whether to stay or go. (I would go.)
posted by St. Peepsburg at 3:47 PM on October 8, 2013 [17 favorites]


After a single month of dating he has expressed that one of the fundamental foundations of a romantic relationship is missing. If you are both interested in a long relationship of frustration then stick it out. But you both would be better off finding someone that is compatible on all those levels mentioned above.

Stop dating your best friend and save that great relationship because your current relationship is not long for this world.
posted by munchingzombie at 3:52 PM on October 8, 2013 [6 favorites]


Best answer: He finally ends up saying that out of a ten point scale, he would give me a six.

Apparently he had even brought this up with his dad, saying that inside I am more than a ten but outside I am not.

He seems like an jerk and he's blathering about feeling bad about being shallow to cover up for it. The feelings are not unusual. His manner of dealing with it is grotesque.

Look, people sometimes find unexpected people attractive or grow to find people attractive over time or changes tastes or whatever, but what normal adult people don't do is stand toe to toe with someone they supposedly care about and call them a six and then tell them about a conversation they had with their dad where they were talking about your not being attractive to him.

That is some bullshit. The lack of concern for your feelings is appalling. He thinks he might be shallow? Everybody's "shallow". What everyone isn't is "insensitive". He is.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 3:52 PM on October 8, 2013 [101 favorites]


YOU DESERVE SO MUCH MORE THAN THIS.

The conversations that you've had with this guy are irreversible and hurtful. I sure as hell wouldn't want to walk around devoted to someone who has made my appearance such an issue.
posted by mzwz at 3:53 PM on October 8, 2013 [25 favorites]


I'm so sorry that you're in pain about this situation. While my first instinct is to counsel you to move on, knowing that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that someday you will meet someone equally wonderful who thinks you're amazing, one aspect of your post stood out to me... that he had been attracted to you during the early months of your friendship when you weren't interested in him, even though you weren't his usual type.

I think it's possible that he made the mental shift of moving you from the "potential romantic partner" category to the "friend" category then. Now your relationship has been re-categorized, but it's much harder to gin up attraction feelings because a) you never were his type to begin with, and b) he put his crush aside in order to enjoy your friendship, thereby relegating you into a non-sexual role.

So. I would give it a little while... his attraction feelings may revise in accordance with the new relationship reality. But don't give it forever: you deserve to have someone who thinks you're the cat's meow in all of your dimensions.
posted by carmicha at 3:53 PM on October 8, 2013


Best answer: I am guessing that this guy is very young and has spent much more time jerking off to airbrushed porn than being with real women, "sixes," "tens" or otherwise. People are attracted to each other for all kinds of reasons and the first time someone is drawn to someone who doesn't fit the previous template, especially if that template is imaginary, it can be a surprise. Over time, most men learn that even porn stars, models, etc. do not live up to their media images in real life, and discover that a real living, breathing human has all kinds of wonderful things to offer.

That said, this guy needs to learn that he doesn't have to let everything that goes through his head escape out his mouth. What are you supposed to do with his revelations? How would he feel if you catalogued all the ways he doesn't live up to your fantasy? Also, telling you that "he hates himself" over this sounds like a way of guilt-tripping you out of calling him on his crap.

Bottom line: someone this immature and self-centred will hurt you a gazillion ways before he gets his head out of his own ass (if he ever does). Somewhere out there is a great guy who will appreciate everything you have to offer, in real life, right now. Go find him, and leave this fool to jerk himself off.
posted by rpfields at 3:54 PM on October 8, 2013 [24 favorites]


I can only hope that you both are really young because SHEESH! Your boyfriend is saying some incredibly stupid, mean things.
posted by ablazingsaddle at 3:54 PM on October 8, 2013 [7 favorites]


Response by poster: It sounds like he does find you attractive, he just doesn't think you're the hottest evar. I think that's totally OK and it's unrealistic to think your partner has to see you as the hottest person in the world. Do you think he's the hottest person in the world, nobody hotter, not even Chris Hemsworth in that scene from Thor when he's in the rain and mud trying to lift the hammer and his shirt is skintight and his arms and back look perfect holy shit

What I'm trying to say is as guys and girls get older they start to learn a partner does not need to look like Megan Fox/Chris Hemsworth/insert-your-favorite-here in order to have a wonderful relationship and passionate sex life. It sounds like your guy is still going through the process and is being honest with you about it. His biggest fault is maybe he's too honest--I mean, at the point where you were asking for numerical ratings a smart person would have demurred and said it didn't matter.
posted by Anonymous at 3:58 PM on October 8, 2013


He isn't attracted physically to you and he has said that all along. It will not change. If you want to be with a man who isnt physically attracted to you, that is your choice however physical attraction plays a big part in a man's connection to a woman. Right now he is just saying it and he has felt it all along. The guy is honest. But as time passes it will be more and more of an issue.
posted by ladoo at 4:00 PM on October 8, 2013 [2 favorites]


Best answer: I react to this differently than some others in the thread. It seems to me he clearly is physically attracted to you, and is just confused about the fact that his attraction to you doesn't jibe with his prior ideas about what a "cute" or "hot" woman looked like. Presumably he's on his way to getting over this confusion and would not even have mentioned it except that you asked him directly. I would give this a chance. If he stops being attracted to you, you'll know.
posted by escabeche at 4:04 PM on October 8, 2013 [28 favorites]


I don't really think this was a thing until you made it a thing. He off-handedly commented that you aren't his physical type. Sure, that was pretty tactless, but from your question, I don't think it should have been interpreted as indication that he thinks you are a grotesque monster. Your problem was that you brought it up again, and although it's not entirely clear, it sounds like you pushed him into rating you. That was your insecurity talking (I know, I've been there before). Whether you continue this relationship or not, you should definitely consider that a valuable lesson learned.

As I see it, you have two options. (1) Give it a shot, with the condition that you never breach this topic again (by that I mean, neither of you ever discuss physical ratings or engage in any sort of comparative appearance analysis); or (2) You call it quits knowing that you can't unknow that you are a "6" in his eyes.

And, FWIW, I am often drawn to people who aren't conventionally attractive or my usual type. Sometimes, sparks fly in person when, on paper, I'd never even look twice. But, here's the thing -- once the sparks are flying, there's no objective scale of attractiveness. Sure, if prodded, I might be able to step back and asses (ugh, how gross, sorry), but that objective assessment would be TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if he is SUBJECTIVELY attracted to you, it doesn't matter if he OBJECTIVELY would be. Unless, of course, he continuously mentions how objectively unattractive you are, in which case you should cut your losses. Good luck.
posted by snarfles at 4:08 PM on October 8, 2013 [6 favorites]


Best answer: It sounds like this guy is young and doesn't have much experience with how attraction works in real life or the importance of not giving voice to every thought that pops through his head, especially the ones that objectify women.

I remember being in college and having intense feelings of attraction to someone who wasn't conventionally hot or even what I considered my type. I just thought we connected really well, and it was a deeper form of attraction than simply finding someone hot in the conventional sense. It was a real eye-opener for me and I would take that kind of attraction any day over the kind you get from someone who conforms well to traditional standards of beauty.

In any case, I wouldn't tell someone, anyone, that they were a "six" or whatever, even if they knocked my socks off. But maybe that's kind of what's going on in your boyfriend's head.

Still... You don't deserve to feel demeaned in your relationship and it's going to be kind of hard to put the toothpaste back in the tube here.
posted by alphanerd at 4:10 PM on October 8, 2013 [6 favorites]


No, this can't work. As you said, this isn't a matter of being objective about your partner's flaws but loving them anyway. I'm not a 10 and my partner isn't a 10 either but boy does he turn me on, and me him.

Source for my answer: I've unknowingly dated 2 gay men in the past. At least one of them was sexually attracted to me. I am currently dating an entirely straight man. THERE IS SO MUCH OF A DIFFERENCE that it is amazing that I didn't know they were gay for so long.

Being with a man that 100% finds me hot both mentally AND physically (and cares enough about my feelings not to tell me that he has been discussing my non-hottitude with others, sheesh) has done wonders for my self-esteem.
posted by chainsofreedom at 4:17 PM on October 8, 2013 [6 favorites]


Personal story. I didn't find my boyfriend physically attractive when we first met. I did warm up to him over the course of a few months. I was drawn to him emotionally and intellectually and when I said yes to being in a committed relationship with him, I had already gotten to a stage which I find him immensely attractive. Just the thought and the scent of him drive me crazy.

The point is, I didn't feel guilty not being physically attracted to him. I didn't have to work on it either. It comes naturally. I also didn't have the need to tell him this because it's not his problem to fix. He's great as he is and if I am unable to feel that way, it's simply my subjective perspective. There's no need to make him feel any less special because of what I think.

I suggest you and your boyfriend should take a step back and evaluate your relationship at the moment. Don't pressure him to become physically attracted to you and don't feel insecure either. Keep things casual and let your boyfriend deal with his issues. Consider moving on as an option because yes, physical attraction is an essential component of a relationship I think.
posted by azalea at 4:19 PM on October 8, 2013 [4 favorites]


I think this is most likely a significant problem, and I say that because he's already brought it up, he's already thinking about it, he's already concerned about it at this early juncture. I would try to look it as a good thing that he's dealing with this now rather than later, and I think he shouldn't be beating himself up for feeling "shallow". I think it's important that he be honest both with himself and with you, and he should not be criticized or thought badly of by himself or by others for facing up to the fact that there may be some issues around physical attraction.
posted by Dansaman at 4:23 PM on October 8, 2013


You're getting a lot of conflicting opinions here, but I would add one vote on the side of the interpretation that you both sound very young, and that it seems he IS attracted to you (therefore finds you attractive), but since the culture is telling him a woman's attractiveness can be rated on a scale (ugh), and he's fairly new to this kind of real connection that trumps all those superficial ratings, he's all surprised and it's taking a while for him to incorporate it into his world view.

I actually find it reassuring that he's so honest with you about this. Yes, it's not nice to hear, but I think there's hope for both of you.

Truth is, once you love someone, they are a "10" for you, whatever rating you would give them otherwise.

Although I encourage both of you to drop thinking of each other in terms of ratings, that shit is good for toasters on Amazon, not people.
posted by Ender's Friend at 4:39 PM on October 8, 2013 [3 favorites]


I think mutual sexual and romantic attraction is really important in a sexual, romantic relationship. So no. There are people out there you'll be unambivalently attracted to who are unambivalently attracted to you, and that's awesome. Too bad, so sad, this guy's missing out, stuff happens.
posted by Sidhedevil at 4:39 PM on October 8, 2013 [2 favorites]


He does not want us to separate but how can I stay with someone who doesn't find me attractive?

It sounds to me like he is physically attracted to you, but that you don't fit into the mold of being his idea of a "hot girl" or whatever, and it never occurred to him before that these things don't have to go hand in hand. That this blows his mind is a sign of immaturity and real world inexperience more than anything. He also hasn't learned how to navigate honesty and tact. Telling you you're a 6 out of 10 is one of those things that, if he has any decency, he'll look back on and wonder why the hell he said it - seriously, what a stupid thing to say to somebody.

That said, many people have fulfilling romantic relationships with people they're aware would never be considered for Playboy centerfolds or whatever the male equivalent of that would be. Not all guys are after the hottest girls.

It might also be relevant how his dad responded to his confession.
posted by wondermouse at 4:50 PM on October 8, 2013 [8 favorites]


Ok, so a few things.

-You both like(d) each other. He attempted to compliment you but failed miserably. It hurt you. You cornered him and forced an answer some time later. He answered truthfully. You were hurt by his answer again and asked him to rank you on a 1 - 10. You did not like his answer. Beyond that, you are both still very into each other. Side note: cornering anyone and making them say things they don't want to say exposes the cornerer's insecurities and is unattractive.

-He's an idiot, but he's truthful. Moreover I think eschabeche nails his inner turmoil and inner idiot's voice properly. He is attracted to you, and he knows its not just about your looks - its about how awesome you are. Side note: this probably indicates a level of immaturity on his part, which is massively unattractive.

-It likely won't work out. I say that because external to your post, the odds are you are both young enough and that you will likely be dating other people before the end of your college careers. It is immaterial to your post; however, this is a decent catalyst for either of you to seriously start looking elsewhere.

-If he's Mr. Right - he needs some time to mature. He can do that with you, or do that without you. That's your choice.

-You do deserve to feel like a princess, or Amelia Earhart, or Marie Curie, or whoever you want to feel like. If this guy can't, hasn't and/or won't make you feel that way - DTMF... simple.
posted by Nanukthedog at 4:52 PM on October 8, 2013 [4 favorites]


the importance of not giving voice to every thought that pops through his head

I think this is really the issue. A lot of young guys - and maybe women, too, but I only date guys - just say things that are hurtful because they think it's good to "be honest." My favorite example of this is this guy I dated a few years ago who told me, out of the blue, that he didn't particularly like the way my hair smelled. It wasn't dirty, he just didn't like the smell of my hair.

And I felt like shouting back, "I don't like the way your balls smell, but I'm not going to tell you that (and make you self-conscious about your balls for the duration of the relationship)."

Seriously, who the fuck rates their girlfriend on a ten point scale? Other than a young, immature and inexperienced guy who, hopefully will look back at this and think, "What the hell was I thinking saying that aloud?" - NO ONE.
posted by ablazingsaddle at 4:52 PM on October 8, 2013 [17 favorites]


Can a relationship work if one partner does not find the other attractive?

Speaking as an unattractive person, I like to believe so. It seems more likely someone could look beyond my physical appearance than that there's women just salivating to meet a thin, bald office worker with a lisp.
posted by Mike1024 at 5:03 PM on October 8, 2013 [3 favorites]


He does not want us to separate but how can I stay with someone who doesn't find me attractive?

Not commenting on the viability of your relationship, but he clearly does find you attractive if he wants to be with you.

Like a lot of others, I think you both sound really young. I dunno if I'm a grizzled old cynical bastard or what, but the idea that any romantic partner would ever find me a 10 out 10 is... silly. I'm not like movie star good looking you know? And there's so much more to me than my looks (I bloody hope so or I am in some deep shit!).

I think you are both going through the process of discovering that there's a lot more to attraction than 'conventional' good looks, or what people/society make of the accessory/person hanging off your arm. He's discovering that you can still be really attracted to someone even if they wouldn't make the cover of Vogue. And you're discovering that someone can be attracted to you even if they recognise there are more 'beautiful' people out there.

Unfortunately it sounds like he's discovering it in a douchier way than you, but regardless, I think it's an important lesson for both you. Some people I know want their partners to always be like "You're hotter than a model! Like, actually physically and aesthetically!". They want their partners to lie about it, or they want their partners to really believe it. It's a valid request; I don't really go for that jazz myself, but if that's what you want it's what you want. Personally I would much prefer someone value me for my personality and traits than my looks (i.e. 10 for inside, 6 for outside is much more preferable to me than the reverse), but that's a personal choice, and you can have both if you want it.

We don't know anything about this guy and what he brings to the relationship for you etc etc. So it's on you to weigh up if his cluelessness and gradual discovery that connection is more important than cup size or whatever is worth putting up with. There are certainly guys out there that have never needed to discover this, or have internalised it from pretty much day 0. But that doesn't mean you should dump this guy; it's up to you how important it is for you.

I can see why you are hurt, but I wouldn't say dude isn't attracted to you.
posted by smoke at 5:06 PM on October 8, 2013 [7 favorites]


He finally ends up saying that out of a ten point scale, he would give me a six. I was extremely hurt to discover he didn't find me attractive.

Why would he say this?! First of all, you are under no obligation to put stock into people's ten point systems. It's a sham, imo.

Also, what is with his lack of a filter? If he is questioning whether or not he's attracted to the one he is with, he needs to do so privately and the only reason he would ever need to disclose that to you is if he decides he doesn't want to be with you, and even then he doesn't necessarily really need to make that part of the conversation.

Whether or not he is attracted to you has no bearing on whether you are actually attractive, and I hope at no point he puts it in terms that make it sound like his attractedness level has bearing on your objective attractiveness.

Would it be possible to ask him, "Dude, what is with your lack of tact?" or anything along these lines. That is what I am thinking anyway.
posted by mermily at 5:09 PM on October 8, 2013 [4 favorites]


My dad once told my mom that one of the things he liked about her was that she wasn't beautiful. They've been married for 25+ years. (He also told her that he could never marry her, but he got over that.)

You say he's sexually attracted to you and adores you. Do his actions make you feel like he's attracted to you? If so, can you think about that, basically using the CBT technique of figuring out your response before getting caught up in negative thinking spirals. I've also had good luck just telling boyfriends if I need something different from them, eg, "You've told me I'm beautiful once and mention my 'belly' all the time, which makes me feel fat and unattractive. Can you please switch the frequencies of those comments?"
posted by carolr at 5:17 PM on October 8, 2013 [1 favorite]


You can get hurt now or later, but there will be a break up. I would counsel doing it now on your terms.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 5:20 PM on October 8, 2013 [3 favorites]


No. I think a relationship can work just fine if you don't think the person your with is the objectively most attractive person ever or you think their not a 10, but I don't think a relationship can work when your not attracted to your partner to the point you're asking family members about not being attracted to them or blurting out stupid things to them about it.

While I agree with a lot of the other posters that your partner has a lot of growing up to do and he's learning a lesson I think is incredibly unkind to make it your lesson. I think you deserve someone who is attracted to you and owns that.

I say that not just because I think the things he's said to you are really awful but because I wouldn't want to live with the doubt caused by someone who would tell me and other people that I wasn't good enough for him. I would worry that he would always think the grass is greener elsewhere and while its normal to have doubts it isn't normal to need to tell your partner that. The first months of a new relationship should be much easier than that.
posted by SpaceWarp13 at 5:21 PM on October 8, 2013 [10 favorites]


It can definitely work. Not everyone is a "10" in the eyes of everyone. Many people are only a "6" or less in the eyes of many people. Lots of things are more important in a relationship. Lots of things go into making a successful relationship.

The way your partner looks is inherently ephemeral. If you love a partner for their looks, does that mean you might stop loving them when their looks change, for example when they show signs of aging?

You listed a lot of other very positive aspects of the relationship. I would ride with those!

The one thing you didn't mention in your message is sex. Do you guys have good sex? If you do, that can go a long way on the hotness and happy relationship scale. If you don't, then I'd be much more concerned about the negative impact that would have on your relationship long term, versus anything about your looks.
posted by alms at 5:24 PM on October 8, 2013


Sounds like this guy's main issue could be foot in mouth disease. Maybe over time he'll get better at realizing what to say out loud and what to keep to himself. Hopefully, maturity will also bring broader tastes in physical appearance. Personally, I would never rate anyone on a 1-10 scale and don't think of people that way, even as there are certainly some people I find more attractive than others. What I'm saying is, maybe he will re-frame his definitions of attractiveness over time.

In terms of the two of you, I'll say that I was immediately attracted to my partner, but over time I also find her more and more beautiful because of our connection and the depth of my knowledge of her. If the relationship grows, he may grow more physically attracted to you.

You'll have to decide for yourself if the (very understandable) discomfort this situation causes is worth it to you.
posted by latkes at 5:27 PM on October 8, 2013


He should learn to keep some things to himself, but outside of that, it sounds like he finds you quite attractive as a complete person (the whole you, not just your appearance) and also very attractive sexually. But, that maybe when compared to conventionally gorgeous person, you're not a 10? Hardly anyone is a conventionally gorgeous 10. And, if they are, it's unlikely that they'll always be considered that way as convention skews heavily toward youth.

I think he's got a problem opening his mouth to clumsily communicate things that he should keep to himself. He finds you attractive despite you not being a photoshopped, professionally styled movie star. Maybe that's what's shocking him so much. He doesn't seem to fully understand the mechanics of attraction and that it's not all based on your partner being a 10. Lasting relationships are not based on looks, they're based on attraction across many areas. It's perfectly normal to be dumbstruck in love and super attracted to someone who isn't a 10.

Now, if he's openly ogling other women, regularly making shitty comments about your physical appearance, or not responding to you sexually - I'd say DTMFA. But, it sounds like he's got foot in mouth disease and doesn't quite understand that he should stop digging a hole with clumsy comments when he adores you.

Also, stop talking about this with him and don't make it into a bigger issue than it is.
posted by quince at 5:28 PM on October 8, 2013 [1 favorite]


I'm with the contingent saying that it sounds like he is attracted to you, and is confused by this because in his mental list or whatever of what constitutes hotness, you wouldn't be. And yet you are. But you don't tick the boxes on an arbitrarily-defined list. But he's attracted to you. So this is creating a bit of cognitive dissonance for him, which he is struggling to resolve. He has also put his foot in it in a very big way, both by telling you in the first place and then digging himself in even deeper.

He also sounds quite young/immature to only be figuring this out now, and handling it this way. And you sound like you have your own baggage around this particular issue which leads you to push him on it before he's made sense of his cognitive dissonance. It's up to you whether you think it's worth being patient, or whether you think it's likely that he'll get over this particular earth-shattering realisation. Either way, I'd be having a conversation about how tactless and hurtful he's been. Whether something is a make-or-break issue though is ultimately up to you to decide.
posted by Athanassiel at 5:29 PM on October 8, 2013 [2 favorites]


Best answer: When I read:

Many months ago... a guy at school.

My first impression was also:

I am guessing that this guy is very young and has spent much more time jerking off to airbrushed porn than being with real women, "sixes," "tens" or otherwise. People are attracted to each other for all kinds of reasons and the first time someone is drawn to someone who doesn't fit the previous template, especially if that template is imaginary, it can be a surprise.

I don't know enough about you or him or your relationship to really know if this is true or not, but I remember being a young woman in high school and college and knowing a lot of young men without a lot of actual experience with girls, who had spent a lot of time being told what they ought to find beautiful and attractive in a woman, and had internalized it so deeply that they hadn't really spent much time finding out what they, themselves ACTUALLY found beautiful and attractive in a woman.

And some of them HAD figured out what they, themselves ACTUALLY found beautiful and attractive in a woman, but were so afraid of the social consequences of admitting that it was different from what they had been told they ought to*, that they got all weird about it.

So, it's possible that this may work itself out, or not. I don't know exactly how young you are, but you're young. If you're enjoying yourself in every other way, you may as well see where it goes for a while, with the knowledge that there are plenty of fish in the sea if he doesn't get it figured out in a timely manner.

*For example, sometimes it wasn't a woman at all.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:31 PM on October 8, 2013 [9 favorites]


You're looking at attraction in an absolutist way, as in if you're not a ten, you ain't shit. The reality is that a ten, as depicted in the consumerist media in which we are all constantly deluged, is unattainable by any human person, including the models whose bodies are airbrushed into the artificial perfection we are all trained to desire. This guy is breaking the official boyfriend script by giving voice to the gap between this impossible perfection and you, whom he evidently finds hot. You can use this hurtful truth to accelerate your liberation and become intimate on a whole different level--if you can summon the maturity not to punish him for telling you the truth, and instead to interrogate and give voice to your own appearance-based insecurities and self hatred.
posted by ottereroticist at 5:32 PM on October 8, 2013 [4 favorites]


Best answer: The reality is that a ten, as depicted in the consumerist media in which we are all constantly deluged, is unattainable by any human person,

Maybe, but how does that help the OP? For him to call her a 6 shows he's tactless, which could be even more of a problem than his lack of attraction. One reason it's ridiculous to have a 10-point scale of attractiveness is that it's not really a 10-point scale. Almost no one will ever be called a 1 or a 10, since that seems too extreme. For that matter, anything from 1 to 5 will seem too mean. So the real scale ends up being 6 to 9 — it's more like a 4-point scale. And anyone who realizes this will mostly give out 7s and 8s — again, to avoid the extremes! So calling you a 6 is basically giving you the lowest possible rating, and it's probably not a good idea to spend lots of your free time with someone who gives you the lowest possible rating.
posted by John Cohen at 5:39 PM on October 8, 2013 [7 favorites]


A lot of these answers are really black-and-white, as is normal on AskMe. But I think whether this can work depends a lot on how much this bothers you, on the relationship between you two, and on how this guy acts most of the time when he is not making thoughtless, insensitive comments. It also depends on how much the fact that you aren't a "10" to this guy matters to HIM.

Personally, if I were you, I'd be really hurt by this. Many people here are pointing out that no-one is really a "10", so there's no point to worrying about it. But everyone wants to date someone who is really attracted to them and who finds them to be a 10 in their partner's eyes. I think your boyfriend is attracted to you but I am not encouraged that he compares you to the mainstream idea of "10" and then feels the need to tell you that you don't meet up to it. It tells me that he is somewhat immature and doesn't know how to be secure in his decisions and desires. It also suggests maybe that he thinks too much about what others think. It sounds like you don't look like the person he thought he'd be attracted to or something, but he needs to get over that. If he can get over that, and if you can be secure in yourself and your appearance, I think the relationship has a chance. But those could be pretty hard obstacles.

I wish you the best.
posted by bearette at 6:00 PM on October 8, 2013 [6 favorites]


i think there is a real difference between thinking someone is good-looking and being attracted to them. there are guys i think are physically really good-looking but i am not attracted to them because they just don't have that something something that makes my heart flutter. other guys that aren't as conventionally handsome can definitely make my heart flutter because there is just something about them. it is kind of an energy about them or their personality i guess. i definitely think they are hot even if they aren't all that good-looking. i think attraction is about the whole package (personality, emotional, sexual & physical) while looks are just physical and definitely not enough for some of us by themselves. of course we'd all like both, but i'll take a guy who is wicked smart and funny over some guy whose best feature is his looks. talk about boring.
posted by wildflower at 6:09 PM on October 8, 2013 [3 favorites]


I loved this comment in another thread, by an anonymous Mefite who talked about falling in love with his wife, whom he objectively considers physically unattractive:

My wife is ugly.

He obviously loves her a great deal, and says they are happily married. Just a piece of anecdata to show that great physical attraction is not necessarily the be-all, end-all of what makes a relationship work.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 6:12 PM on October 8, 2013 [3 favorites]


I agree with the escabeche contingent. He's still learning about what real life and real partners are like. And he likes you, and he wants to be with you, so he is attracted to you. By definition and by action.

He's trying to separate subjective attraction and objective attraction, and struggling with the fact that there really is no such thing as objective attraction. The "scale" he's rating you on doesn't actually exist in any meaningful way. I'm sorry it was hurtful to you to hear his comment, which was totally a clumsy and dumb one, but it doesn't really mean much. It just means he can't think for himself very well yet and is still second-guessing his own preferences.

At the same time, I sort of get the idea - and I may be wrong here - that you are insecure enough that you pressured him and pressured him to talk to you about this. You talked about it the first time, and then "the day after, we continued talking about it. " Did you really just ...continue? Who continued? Were you unable to let it go? Why did you need to drag this out of him, assuming you did?

There's a lot of relationship magic in just letting people have their own space and their own thoughts. To me, the important thing he said is that he wants to be with you. He seems to be attracted to you - in that he wants to be romantic/sexual with you - which is really the main thing. Whether or not he is confusing that with some sort of arbitrary external attractiveness scale seems less important.
posted by Miko at 6:12 PM on October 8, 2013 [8 favorites]


The question is not "can this work if one partner does not find the other attractive?"

The question is "can this work if one partner is less mature than the other?"

Believe me, it's not a rhetorical question. It's hard to decide. And only you really can. Just give yourself time. At least now you're aware of the issue.
posted by kettleoffish at 6:29 PM on October 8, 2013 [4 favorites]


He finally ends up saying that out of a ten point scale, he would give me a six. I was extremely hurt to discover he didn't find me attractive.

My abuser told me I was a "4" and even though I left him a year ago I still think of myself as a 4. It's kind of a shame, isn't it?

Being rated in that way by someone who supposedly loves you is awful. I think this largely depends on whether or not you're hurt enough by being called a 6 that you can't forget it. And it's OK if you can't. I certainly couldn't.
posted by sockermom at 6:47 PM on October 8, 2013 [8 favorites]


The other thing that jumps out at me is this: "In every other way, he adores me and does not want to lose me."

Someone who adores you should not be telling you all these things about how unattractive you are to him. The volume of discussion here is one of the things that concerns me. If it was just that first time, when he slipped? That's one thing.

But going into this much detail about it? That's just so... hurtful. And when we love or adore someone, we do not put them through this much pain. Even if they ask us for it (by that I mean, even if you badgered him about it, he shouldn't have given you these details - the discussion with his dad, the rating you on a scale, all that).

It almost feels to me like he's telling you "I am going to have a problem with this and instead of dealing with it on my own I am going to make you deal with it by either (a) becoming prettier; (b) becoming more insecure; or (c) both."
posted by sockermom at 6:54 PM on October 8, 2013 [4 favorites]


If he doesn't want to lose you he'd be nice to you and telling someone they're a 6 isn't very nice. Why would you want to be with someone who isn't nice to you?
posted by spunweb at 7:07 PM on October 8, 2013


Question: Is he a 10 for you?

You can have the kind of relationship where looks matter less and you just like each other and it's even and good.

You can have the kind of relationship where being hot matters and you are both relatively even in "status" and that's good.

What you can't have (comfortably or sustainably) is a mismatch.
posted by carolinaherrera at 7:14 PM on October 8, 2013


Response by poster: Telling you you're a 6 out of 10 is one of those things that, if he has any decency, he'll look back on and wonder why the hell he said it - seriously, what a stupid thing to say to somebody

I dated a guy who told me early on, without prompting, he "normally liked women with bigger breasts". Post-coitus, while we were still in bed. It was such an idiotic thing to say on so many levels I just laughed and immediately told the story to as many people as possible. He was immature, plain and simple, but fundamentally a good and sweet guy.

Years later he's incredibly kind and thoughtful and has not repeated the mistake. His comment remains one of my favorite stories, and when I feel like a dose of (loving) schadenfreude I like to bring it up to watch him squirm.

If this guy was 30 I would say dump him at the curb. But early 20s, well, well-meaning, earnest, loving men and women of that age do and say a lot of dumb shit.

Because then what? Hope for the attraction to grow? Him to mature? Much love to everyone who empathized with my hurt.

Part of it is maturity, part of it is falling more in love with the other person. It's not just him thinking about attractiveness along a scale--you are too.

There's two types of "attractive". There's what you like to look at in magazines and on the street. And then there's the person you're in love with, who is on an entirely different plain and attractiveness is not measured in "tit size", "hair length", "number of abs", but in the way they look when they're sleeping, the feeling of their hugs, and the crinkle of their eyes when they laugh.

It sounds sappy as fuck but it's true, when it's someone you love the normal rules just don't apply. You have to learn to trust that you can become that kind of person for somebody. You have to believe you don't need to be a Victoria's Secret model to have inherent worth that shines through your personality and actions, worth that can be recognized and treasured by another person.
posted by Anonymous at 7:29 PM on October 8, 2013


You both need to learn the lesson that saying this sort of thing to a romantic partner is a total, 100% deal breaker. You deserve better and he deserves worse. You deserve someone that says enthusiastically, "On my scale, you're a 10."

Don't build a house on sand. It will come back to bite you later on. Oh, mixing metaphors so ill quit now.
posted by gentian at 7:32 PM on October 8, 2013 [3 favorites]


On that clarification -- I think there's hope for you here, if you and your boyfriend can both get past a certain amount of cultural preprogramming. He needs to get past the expectation that the value of a woman in his life can be measured by her conventional attractiveness. It sounds like he's starting to figure that out already.

Meanwhile, you also need to get past the idea that his assessment of your conventional attractiveness is the same thing as his overall interest and desire for you.

I totally understand why this is painful. I had a college relationship where the guy was kind of overt about not finding me hot enough for his standards before dumping me for someone thinner and blonder, someone he didn't know as well but with whom he was more willing to be seen in public. That did a number on my self-confidence for a long time.

But it sounds like that's not actually what's going on with you and your boyfriend. You say that he desires you sexually, that he adores you and wants to be with you, that he describes you as having your own sort of beauty, and that he really tried to avoid hurting you by going into detail about this except that you wouldn't let it drop. It sounds to me as though he is attracted to you in the sense that matters. Someone knowing you well and thinking you are sexy and fun and a terrific human being is actually a much higher compliment than a stranger thinking you look like a magazine cover.
posted by shattersock at 7:40 PM on October 8, 2013 [3 favorites]


You don't have to be beautiful to be in a happy relationship, but you have to *feel* beautiful within it. If you don't feel beautiful (let alone because he's actually telling you he doesn't think you are), then no, I don't think you can be happy in this relationship, and yes, I think he's telling you that he isn't.

Needing a strong physical connection isn't shallow, and not feeling one doesn't mean either of you are ugly. You and he deserve to feel desired and to feel desire for the other person. That desire is about compatibility, not value judgments. If either of you aren't feeling it, I think it means that you aren't compatible enough to be happy being monogamous long-term (or at least that's what it has meant in my own life).

This isn't an emergency, and you can coast for a while and see how things shake out. Please keep in mind that you can be friends, you can love each other, you can even express that love through sex or just have sex together for fun, and none of that means you have to be boyfriend/girlfriend. I would concentrate on not feeling shame (you: for feeling "ugly," him: for feeling "shallow"), and let the specific definitions/boundaries of your relationship shake out however they will over time.
posted by rue72 at 7:51 PM on October 8, 2013 [3 favorites]


I read your update. I feel for you. I really do. But it's almost as if you are deliberately misunderstanding your boyfriend in some sort of twisted effort to induce more and more inartful (and hurtful) explanations from him. (To be fair to you, your boyfriend needs help in the communications department too. He should have reassured you a few times and then refused to engage in any further inquisition).

Your entire question rests on the premise he doesn't find you attractive, even though he never said that. And, as he's been trying to explain, even if he did say it, he definitely didn't mean it.

He became infatuated with me and one day let slip a thought, "physically, I don't know why I would be attracted to you!"

Like I said before, it's not the most tactful comment I've ever heard. But "physically, I don't know why I would be attracted to you" does not equal "I don't find you attractive." That he was surprised by his attraction to you does not mean that he is not attracted you.

As he tried to explain himself, he said that I am not "traditionally beautiful" but I have a "beauty all my own." That wasn't too reassuring. He finally ends up saying that out of a ten point scale, he would give me a six. I was extremely hurt to discover he didn't find me attractive.

"Beauty all my own" does not equal "didn't find me attractive." Oh, and this was only after pushing him for further clarification of his stance w/r/t to your appearance after his initial foot-in-mouth comment made months earlier, before you were even dating. He didn't pick you up for dinner and proclaim you a six out of nowhere. You are the one that has repeatedly brought up your appearance, not him. In doing so, you have continued to twist his words as negatively as possible, even as he attempts to reassure you that you are getting it all wrong.

Case in point:

He told me about his conversation with my father because while he was consoling me (who was distraught over understanding that I wasn't attractive to him), he told me that his father had told him that though he didn't find his mother pretty, he did find her beautiful. I found that .. not too helpful but I did pick up on why his dad even needed to give him that advice. That was how he had to admit that he did bring the subject up to him.

Girl! Firstly, as stated above, he did not say that you were not attractive to him. Secondly, did the thought occur to you that he brought this issue up with this dad because it had turned into a huge emotional issue and he wanted to figure out a way to make it better? That's the far more likely scenario than the one in which he calls up his dad and says, "yo, my girlfriend is unattractive, what do I do?" Hence, his comment to you regarding pretty v. beautiful. And then, somehow, you took this comment and used it against him, as if he was hiding something awful from you.


It was a terribly unpleasant conversation for both of us and he tried really hard to not answer.


But you made him answer anyway, right?

You need to take a step way, way back from this situation and recognize that you demanded your boyfriend explain a months old off-hand, pre-relationship comment multiple times over the past two days while simultaneously reading into his explanations in the most uncharitable way possible. That behavior will never sustain a healthy relationship, whether with this guy or any one else.
posted by snarfles at 7:55 PM on October 8, 2013 [14 favorites]


Have you never been attracted to someone in a sort of bewildering way? I think attraction is inexplicable, and often more than one feature of a person. Sometimes it it really, really hard to pin down.

I remember when I was younger being attracted to lots of guys and being sort of confused by it - because it was so clear that they weren't conventionally attractive by whatever my definition or 'type' was, but man, there was just something until finally I realized I just needed to give up trying to explain it and just focus on enjoying it.

So that was everything from 'I usually like X guys' and then finding myself attracted to guys who are Y. Conversely not being attractive to people that I thought I should be attracted to. People keep telling me that George Clooney is attractive, and I swear I keep trying to see it, but I just. don't. get. it. It's how I feel about coffee. People keep telling me it tastes good, but every time I taste it, it is like licking hotel carpet, or how I imagine ear wax must taste. George Clooney is my hotel carpet licking experience. Not good. Val Kilmer on the other hand - both the 1990s version and the current version, I'd take to dinner in a heartbeat. Cannot explain it, but darn if I wouldn't enjoy it. Additionally, my friend gently explained to her husband at a dinner I went to that JayZ is one of the three men she'd have to leave him for. I think I said something like 'JayZ, the rapper?', as if there was another JayZ she could be referring to. I asked her why, and she just said she couldn't explain it, and she doesn't think he is good looking, but she was 'feeling him'. So not only is beauty in the eye of the beholder, even the beholder isn't always clear about why.

Granted if asked by any guy that I didn't find conventionally attractive why I found them attractive, I probably would have punted and said 'Good griefus! Why ARE you so awesome? I don't know. But you are', rather than 'you are a 6, how could I possibly be attracted to you?'

But please stop torturing yourself, and your boyfriend, by asking questions in ways that shouldn't really ever be asked. Are you attracted to me? Okay. How would you rate me on a scale of 1-10? Should probably never be asked, or shared.

Perhaps a generous interpretation for your boyfriend here is to be found in the lyrics of 'my funny valentine':

My funny valentine
Sweet comic valentine
You make me smile with my heart
Your looks are laughable
Unphotographable
Yet you're my favourite work of art...etc. etc.

This guy, likes you. You, like this guy. Who knows why, or where it will go. In the crapper or to the stars. But why don't you just give a few months and see where that goes and how he makes you feel, regardless of how you 'rate' each other? Because yes, it can work. Will you guys - who knows. But ask yourself if you feel attractive and loved by him - because that's the feeling I hope you feel. Right now, I am a ridiculously wheezing pregnant woman with a seventy pound weight gain. The only reason someone would say that I look hot is because I'm actually sweating. I do not feel attractive. My husband may not think I'm physically attractive right now. But I do feel attractive and loved by my husband. I can't entirely explain that either. But I intend to enjoy it.

Your guy wants to be with you. One day he may leave you, for someone else, or for no one else. You may be the most attractive woman in the world - and one day he may want to leave you anyway, and it will still probably make you sad. If he doesn't make you feel attractive and loved, you may leave him for a guy who does. He has to live with that. Nothing is guaranteed here. I don't know if it is so stark as 'cut your losses' but more, 'give it a month and see how you both feel'. So, tl;dr - accept how you feel, but give it a little while to see how you feel and how you feel about how you feel, if that makes sense.
posted by anitanita at 9:55 PM on October 8, 2013 [3 favorites]


Like snarfles, I'm questioning part of your premise. You ask "how can I stay with someone who doesn't find me attractive?" But he does find you attractive—a six is not bad! That means you're of above-average attractiveness in his eyes. Most people are not 10s! I get why you might be disappointed by his forthrightness on this front, but man, c'mon.
posted by limeonaire at 10:08 PM on October 8, 2013


My partner grew up with a dad who had...issues. Shall we say. Not the least being "fat women are disgusting" (and a mother with body image issues). Which he believed, since apart from parental education the world is set up to reinforce that idea.

Imagine his confusion when he fell in love with me - a woman who hasn't been under 'high-normal' on the BMI scale since prior to puberty, and who spent most of her adult life in the overweight/obese end of that range.

We've talked about it, a few times. He had taken the mainstream/parental notion of attractiveness hook, line, sinker, angler and boat and never ever thought he'd fall in love with a fat woman, or be attracted to one. Then we were friends for a few years, then he realised a few things like 'wow, she's attractive' and 'wow, I like big boobs' and 'I want to have sex with her, a lot, maybe forever'. And 'what the fuck was wrong with my mum and dad' and 'media is totally wrong on this attractiveness thing'.

We didn't have this 'out of ten' nonsense, but it really seems like you've been pushing that and there is no way that will end well. At this point, nothing he says will change things because you are wilfully refusing to believe his actions (being with you, staying with you) or his words (I think you're non-traditionally beautiful, I am surprisingly physically attracted to you) in order to pursue your self-esteem issues. Either you take the man at his word (which is "I am physically attracted to you, and you do not fit the mainstream notion of attractiveness") or you keep at this until it's a cankersore in the heart of your relationship. Six out of ten is more attractive than average, if you're so intent on being rated.

How attractive you are to your partner is not a competition - my partner loves me and finds me attractive, even though there are MILLIONS of women he finds prettier, hell, even friends who are more beautiful - none of them are that complex mix of physical, emotional, intellectual and sexual attractiveness.
posted by geek anachronism at 10:29 PM on October 8, 2013 [9 favorites]


Ok, I take it back, I don't think you guys need to have ANOTHER conversation about it. Sounds like there has been too much already and that's part of the problem.

It seems reasonably clear from what you've said that he is attracted to you. Try to interrupt the repeating thoughts you must be having about this and just give it a little bit of time to calm down. Instead of obsessing over the words that he pretty clearly thought were inadequate to explain the way he felt, concentrate on what he does. How does he treat you? Does he initiate sex with you? Is it hard for him to keep his hands off you? Does he make offhanded comments about how much he wants you, or how nice you smell, or how you turn him on, or something? Does he act as though he is really into you?

Or does he act as though he'd rather you didn't touch him, and seldom initiate touching you? Does he avoid meeting your eyes? Does he make disparaging comments about your clothes or other aspects of your appearance? Does he compare you negatively to other women?

Some people are not good with words and say exactly the wrong thing. It sounds like he was feeling intensely awkward and he fucked up with what he said. Sure, he can do better. But having another go at it right now would probably be a mistake. But if he treats you well and his actions loudly proclaim that he is all kinds of into you, then he is. And you can have another conversation later down the track that says, "you know, I'm a bit sensitive about my attractiveness and those conversations we had really made me feel hurt. I know you didn't mean to you and you obviously do think I'm really attractive. What would really help is if you could sometimes give me random compliments - you know, that you love my eyes, or my hair looks good, or something."

And for your part, try to believe him. Try to believe his actions and his feelings. Try to keep your insecurities and issues and history with previous people a little bit insulated from him. Try not to tell yourself the stories in which you always come out being at fault, or unpretty, or whatever. Try to give him a chance rather than push him into saying what you're most afraid of. It might not work, but give it a chance to!
posted by Athanassiel at 12:00 AM on October 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


Honey, you two are young and he´s just a man. Men are constantly fed the idea that beauty is somehow related to the size and position of the tits according to some "standard" that changes every 20 years or probably even less.

He´s probably surprised because he can´t help comparing you to the current standard but find you attractive (and more than that) despite the fact that you don´t fit in it.

He´s growing up. Allow him. Don´t keep him tied to something he said months ago, something that he is in the process of leaving behind, something that he didn´t put inside his brain.

You don´t fit the current standard of beauty sold by the media? So what? Most women don´t, and here we are 3 million years and counting, still mating.
posted by Fermin at 4:44 AM on October 9, 2013


Best answer: Yeah, he probably does find you attractive and is getting caught up on the real-world-partner attraction vs. movie-star attraction thing because he's young and/or inexperienced.

That said, I really disagree with the suggestions that this is the only thing that should matter to you, or that you're somehow responsible for being hurt by badgering him into saying the things that hurt you.

First of all, it sounded like you only brought up the topic because you had some doubt over his attraction towards you. And, yep - turns out that you were picking up on some ambiguity in him that was actually there. Second of all, it's not like that ambiguity exists within all of us and our partners just know better than to ask. My husband could ask me every single day whether I found him attractive, and I'd doubtless get really annoyed at the constant asking, but at no point would I ever say "well, objectively you're about a 6 out of 10" or "I was hoping my feelings of attraction towards you would change over time but they haven't and I feel really shallow" or "I was discussing with my father why I don't find you as attractive on the outside as I do on the inside," because what the hell, I do not think any of those things. This isn't an unpleasant truth that you'll find lurking deep in us all if you peel back the surface with questions; this is an unpleasant truth about this guy, and you can decide what you want to do with that.

And third of all, it is okay to be bothered and upset by this. Lots of people would be bothered and upset by this. It is fine to want to be with someone who finds you attractive, in an uncomplicated way that doesn't involve qualifiers about marks-out-of-ten scales and what his dad thinks. Your boyfriend is not necessarily a bad guy for going through this fairly common stage of figuring out what attraction means to him personally, but that doesn't mean you're obliged to go along for the ride, especially when the ride includes lines like "he hoped that this feeling of not finding me attractive would change over time".

Whether or not you're insecure about your own looks is not to blame here. But if you want to feel any less insecure, this relationship with this guy at this particular time in his life is probably not the way to go.
posted by Catseye at 4:45 AM on October 9, 2013 [6 favorites]


Best answer: This is a “if I were in your shoes” kind of answer, me trying to think back to when I was in my early 20s (so not much advice, just “this is what it would have been like for me”, in case it helps):

If I had someone infatuated with me for months, and at some point during those months they told me what your boyfriend has told you ("physically, I don't know why I would be attracted to you!"), I would feel a bit insecure. I get how it could be meant as a positive (“I am so bewitched by you, that it doesn't even matter that physically, you really wouldn't rock my world were it not for the rest!”), but on me the effect would be a bit like what negging is intended to do: I'm amazing, but I'm also crap, and I need the amazingness to make up for the crap, and how lucky am I to have found someone like now-boyfriend who sees beyond the crap and into the amazingness. I'm not saying AT ALL that this is what now-boyfriend intended, but, given that at 20 I was a weird mix of self-assurance, even cockiness, and insecurities (including with regard to my femininity as it were, and, in general, re. my position in life), this would have been quite destabilising for me.

Given this, I would have been left with a nagging doubt and, yes, some insecurity even through his growing infatuation, and even after we officially became girlfriend – boyfriend. I'd mostly suppress this and just relish us being together, but it would always be lurking somewhere at the bottom of my mind (unless it were dispelled, which didn't happen in this case). This would happen even if up to then I wouldn't have given much thought to the issue of my own attractiveness, or not more than many women do growing up. A remark such as the one your now-boyfriend made would have coagulated the few minor and pretty diffuse insecurities I had into something real and palpable. Because, if someone who is enamoured with me questions their attractiveness to me, then where do I stand?

So to me the logical (and emotionally necessary) next step would be to clarify this. What exactly did he mean? Was I just not his type? (theoretically, we can be aware that many people have “types”, that these are frequently not relevant to how attractive any one person objectively is, like when someone prefers brunettes and I am a blond)? Did his assessment maybe change with passing time? Now, that he has seen me in more situations, and we've grown so much closer, has he seen something beautiful in me which might not be visible to the casual eye? I wouldn't be able to completely set aside my insecurities (which at least in part would be due to his initial remark), and would have to dig further.

And if the answer I get would be that I am a 6 (no matter how bad an idea it was to press the issue in this manner, or the fact that attractiveness rating is not the way to go for myriads of reasons), and I further found out that the problem was big enough to provoke a discussion with dad, I'd be gutted.

My reasons:

1. However much anyone insists that what truly matters in relationship is companionship, love, sexual compatibility etc and that physical attraction (as in the sheer visual joy you get from someone's physicality, in looking at the lines of their face, the way their body is in space etc) is unimportant and shallow, for most people attractiveness in the eyes of the partner is nonetheless an important part of the love-package, both in terms of feeling this kind of attraction for your partner, and in terms of provoking it. In fact, this, for me, is one sign I'm falling for someone - as another poster said above, they break free of the normal attraction-assessment parameters, and, in my eyes, develop a glow, a radiance which exceeds any other. They light up every room they step in, and, on a scale of 1 to 10, they would be 100.

2. Whilst asking for rating on a scale might look like I was asking for an objective assessment (maybe even to myself), what is truly asked is “What, on a scale of 1 to 10 am I TO YOU, and how far would you go to defend your assessment”. I mean, unless I am actually blind, I kind of know what I look like, and I can also establish how much of a type I am with the current belle de jour; so I am not really asking you to be my eyes. What I want to know is the impact your feelings for me have on you foregrounding my positives, which might be hidden from the casual eye, re-interpreting my negatives (I don't know, maybe I have sticky-outy ears, but rather than this making me look like an elephant in your eyes, you just see that they are exquisitely shaped and they make my head-movements and my neck more graceful, whatever) – in short, that all of me is re-arranged, by your loving eye, into a gestalt which is subjectively-objectively beautiful in excess of what I might be rated as by some random person whose type I am not.

3. Connected to the above – since I have heard it said that people can grow more attracted to others as they get to know them better and develop feelings for them, the fact that I rate a 6 after months of infatuation would blow my mind. What did I start off as? A three?! Or is he just one of the people for whom growing attraction just doesn't apply? Does this mean that whatever his feelings, unless I change dramatically, I will always be physically sub-par? What implications does this have? Can I live with this?

4. Given that months of infatuation barely raised me to a 6, given that he felt the need to discuss the issue with dad, and given that his feelings for me (which seem to be of the warmest excepting this issue) did not trigger that kind of “double vision” where you at the very least have an objective and a subjective rating, I'd be worried to my stomach that this is not a problem that will go away, unless I transform overnight into a physically very different person.

5. I'd be thinking that if someone who is so close to me, maybe even loves me, sees me as so unattractive that they can't bring themselves to rate me higher that a 6, what does this say about me?

6. If he has to struggle so much with himself with me in my normal state, what will happen if my looks go down from this neutral point, as it were? What if I have an outbreak of acne? What if I put on weight/ lose too much weight? What if any other attractiveness-reducing condition were to befall me? What if a more attractive person were to suddenly take an interest in him?

7. Even if I were to honour his honesty/ recognise the fact that I had to exert a lot of pressure to extract this rating (and the dad-discussion details) from him, his assessment would still feel tactless (there are quite a few ideas in this thread of how he could have dealt with your ill-advised pressure differently – and even if I was inclined to make allowances, somewhere this would still rankle). What happens next time when he is under a lot of pressure (let's say you have an argument) – is it OK to be thoughtless, tactless and hurtful because of the pressure? Especially with something he knows is a vulnerable spot for you? Will I need to avoid confrontations from now on so I don't expose my vulnerabilities any more?

So yes, I'd have been incredibly shaken by this in my 20s. Actually, I'd be even now, for some of the reasons listed above and also some extra ones. I might have felt the urge to discuss this further, to at least extract some sort of “Maybe at some point I would have thought that you are a 6, since I was kind of trying to channel current beauty ideals, but really, once I got to know you better, I realised that to me, and anyone who casts more than a casual glance at you, you are way beyond rating”. But I would have (hopefully) realised that further discussion is not gonna help anything. So I would have told him that I find it very difficult to deal with this issue, that I am not sure I can be with someone who doesn't enthusiastically find I exceed all rating systems after these many months of hanging out, and that I need to withdraw slightly to heal and reassess. The way he deals with this info from you, and the way you navigate this problem for yourself is important for your relationship, both with him and with yourself. I don't think it would be a good idea for you to just brush this off.

I say this as someone who had a similar issue in several of my relationships in my 20s. It wasn't looks, but I had other issues, in the eyes of each of my 3 partners, that had to be overcome, and none of them was something I could do about. They still wanted to be with me DESPITE of these issues – and I accepted. It undermined me massively, I constantly second-guessed myself and their actions towards me, two of these guys were really, but insidiously controlling and, in one case, the relationship became abusive, including emotionally. The fact that somewhere I bought into this idea that it needed an extra effort to be with me due to something “objective” about me kept me beholden to these people and unquestioningly in these relationships, in which I wasn't truly happy.

A note on insecurities: I believe that we all have our vulnerabilities, our small-time insecurities, and I think it is a sign of compatibility in a friendship, or an amorous relationship, if we support each other in our little insecurities, rather than tread on them casually and expect the other person to just get over it. Certainly, it can happen that we trigger each other even in good relationships, but how the two people deal with that hurt is frequently what makes or breaks a relationship. In any case, the fact that you are taking this harder than someone else might is, in my view, not a sign that you are dangerously, or dysfunctionally insecure; nor is the fact that he was tactless some sort of blemish on your boyfriend's character. But I do think that being mostly complementary with regard to insecurities (as in: you manage to tread lightly where his are concerned and vice versa) is important for a good relationship. Most people don't marry the Buddha, so most people will have to deal with insecurities in their partner.

Final note - please, don't do attractiveness scales any more, even outside of romantic situations. I totally get the urge, but they are demeaning and incredibly reductive. I know it sounds like a cliche, but it is genuinely buying into really wicked ideas on humanity and the worth of people to be just reduced to some sort of mathematical value, be it in terms of physical beauty, success, kindness, whatever, like you are just a set of figures on the various scales that make up a human being. Viewing yourself or others like this is a killer, especially in intimate relationships, which amongst other things reveal just this: that we are all, from a certain point of view, irreducible to a mere list of characteristics, that there is something in each of us which is essentially, fundamentally worth while and which can only be discovered by a loving eye beyond "objective" measures and whatever the fashion of the day.
posted by miorita at 5:01 AM on October 9, 2013 [10 favorites]


I honestly think you need to cut the guy some slack. From what you described I think he DOES find you attractive and sexy, but for the first time in his life his attraction to someone isn't based entirely in their physical appearance. It sounds like you badgered the guy in to a very uncomfortable and unwinable corner. You were demanding an explanation and justification, but I honestly don't think there was anything he could have said that would have reassured you. If he said, "Naw, babe! I think you're totally gorgeous! I don't know what I was thinking back then!" you would have felt that was insincere and that he was lying to you. He tried to be kind but still give you the honest answer you were demanding, and you didn't like that either. Seriously, I don't know if there was anything he could have said that would have been okay.

Here is, in point form, what I think is going on:
- he finds you attractive and loveable and sexy
- the things that make you attractive and loveable and sexy to him aren't entirely physical. He is also attracted to your intelligence and sense of humour and personality.
- he probably isn't used to being in a relationship that has a deeper connection and about more than just outward appearances
- he is likely still somewhat stuck in the "I want my guy friends to also think my girlfriend is pretty and sexy so that I look cooler/awesome" mindset that some younger guys (and girls for that matter) seem to fall in to. He thinks you are wonderful and awesome in every way, but he isn't sure that it will look cool to people from the outside. He is learning why good relationships aren't about that, but he hasn't quite moved past that.


So here are some questions you need to think about:
1. Do you think he is proud to be with you? Is he excited to introduce you to people as his girlfriend?
2. Do you feel valued and loved by him?
3. Are you proud to be with him? Are you excited to introduce him to people as your boyfriend?
4. Will you be able to be in a relationship where you know your partner doesn't find you to be the sexiest person ever, but still finds you attractive and wants to be with you and loves you?
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 5:32 AM on October 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


Is this worth the risk?

Yes.

Is it a maturity / experience issue?

Yes.

Or should I cut my losses now?

No. Cutting your losses happens when he turns out to be a jerk, as opposed to a young man prone to brain farts.
posted by flabdablet at 5:38 AM on October 9, 2013 [2 favorites]


Never do the X out of 10 thing. Don't do it to yourself, and if your partner does it, I dunno, I would respond with a cold stare and a comment about how hurtful that was and you would rather be with somebody who is not ranking you.

Buuuuuuut this sounds like you may have been determined to plumb the soul of this young man and his (immature) ideas about physical attractiveness. We all have areas for improvement. This is his. If he's okay with that and you are, I'd say you're good.
posted by angrycat at 5:58 AM on October 9, 2013


If you want to stay with him, you have to totally forgive his bumbling attempts. He's an idiot.

Do you feel loved? Do you feel that he thinks you're the best thing on toast? THAT'S what's important.

The whole attraction and looks thing...not so much.

If you believe that he values you, loves you and appreciates you as you are, then you have something to work with.

BUT, you need to get over yourself. Being attractive doesn't validate someone's romantic feelings. He may even love your quirks and weirdness because they're YOURS. Your need for him to validate your attractiveness is YOUR insecurity. He's clearly fine with you and happy with you. He's not asking you to change for him, is he?

He just can't articulate his feelings. And what he does say is incredibly stupid.

So stop talking about it and stop obsessing. He likes you just as you are. If you can't accept that, then you need to end it.

But I would encourage you to accept it.

Sometimes our lovers say stupid stuff. If we love them, we overlook it.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:13 AM on October 9, 2013


I'm going to preface this by saying that since I don't know either of you I can't be sure about where either of you is coming from, and I think for the most part when people answer questions like this they just overlay their own past experiences onto the skeleton of the question and in doing so they might make a lot of incorrect assumptions in their answer, and I might be about to do that even though it irks me but there's no other way to answer here so here's my guess anyway.

I can imagine being in your boyfriend's position because when I was younger I had a habit of dating women whom I wasn't really physically attracted to but felt very compatible with in other ways (e.g. girls I thought of as my "best friend"). In my case I think it was partly a reaction to past rejections and negative experiences with women, and because I was introverted and lacked the confidence to pursue the women that I felt very attracted to and therefore intimidated by. So perhaps it's insecurity combined with inexperience on his part that leads him to seek a relationship that's easy and comfortable for him rather than risky and frightening, but at the same time leaves him feeling less than fully satisfied. (It's important for you to understand though that whether or not he's attracted to you has absolutely no bearing on whether or not somebody else will be. It just means something about him, not about you.)

Perhaps there's something similar going on with you as well. This guy has given you indications that he's uncertain about his attraction to you, and yet you want to hang on to him anyway, maybe because you're afraid that you won't be able to find something better. You mention someone having left you in the past for someone else, which you're afraid will happen again. I think if you had a stronger sense of your own inherent worth, you might not be so interested in sticking around in a relationship where you aren't sure that you're valued, because you'd know you can find one where you are.

So if I'm right about any of these things, I don't think this relationship is a good thing for either of you; I think it's an impediment to the personal growth that you both need to undertake. At the same time, I don't think your boyfriend is an idiot or you're a bad person or anything like that. You're both still figuring things out and that's okay, it just sounds like you need to be doing it with different people.

Or maybe I'm totally off base, per my introduction, in which case you should disregard this. Are you having good sex? If you are then maybe this was just some ill-considered remarks and it will all be forgotten soon.
posted by ludwig_van at 6:34 AM on October 9, 2013 [2 favorites]


Best answer: The conversation he had with his dad happened before we went out. That's how he had his dad's advice to share to try to console me.

And did he ask his dad this in a context something like "My girlfriend's really anxious that she's not attractive enough for me and I don't know how to reassure her?" Because that's a really nice dad-son conversation to have, and if so, he was having it because he was trying to figure out how to understand this himself. And, yay dad.

distraught me asked him if he was ever planning on telling me this. He said no, never, because it would be hurtful. He would have taken it to the grave if I never brought it up.

And there's nothing wrong with that. We all have thoughts about others that we recognize are not for sharing - that we ourselves do not even want to the give the value implied by utterance.

I think it was a good step for me, long ago, to give up the idea that utter honesty was always a prerequisite for a strong, good, powerful human connection. Sometimes the most loving things we can do are to not obsessively probe our own thoughts or force the inner thoughts out of others. I think it is a mistake to think that if you could only know The Truth, you'd find total security in all your relationships. For one thing, any interpersonal 'truth' is fluid and changeable in both content and weight and temporality. For another, the people we love are simply not responsible to us to unburden their every fleeting thought and internal struggle. We know them by their choices and actions, not their thoughts.

It's true that I can remember when these questions disturbed me greatly, in my teens and early 20s. They don't seem very important any more. People tell you what they are by their actions - painful interrogations do not reveal more useful information, and can at times just drag out things that might hurt you. It's okay to leave these questions alone, as long as you feel loved, secure, cared for, appreciated, and attracted yourself enough to find the relationship satisfying. If you are the kind who can never rest if you have one niggling doubt that everything might not be perfect, you will have a long and tortured relationship life. If you can shrug this off as a learning experience where both of you are realizing that relationships are more complicated than they appear in pop culture, and continue to value and care for each other in a way that it sounds like you are doing, and in fact forgive each other for your weaknesses and dumb, confused statements and flaws, then you're on the road to something good - whether that's in this relationship, or the next or the next.
posted by Miko at 7:47 AM on October 9, 2013 [6 favorites]


I know I've said similar things on here before, but it's better that he's attracted to you than that he thinks you're objectively attractive. I am very conventionally pretty, and I have ended up with a few guys who were like, "Oh, my friends think my girlfriend is hot/society approves of my choices," but they weren't that into me physically, even though it seemed like they should be.

He is attracted to you. He doesn't see you as a pretty piece of arm candy. That's okay. Just stop picking at this, and tell him to knock it off with the verbal diarrhea.
posted by ablazingsaddle at 7:55 AM on October 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


In my life it has gone poorly when there is lacking physical attraction.

Also whenever anyone thinks of rating humans on a ten point scale.
posted by ead at 9:56 AM on October 9, 2013


Less talking, more kissing.

I'm serious. You need to quit badgering your boyfriend for information. Your boyfriend needs to shut the hell up and kiss you. Honesty and communication are important, but you two are in "too much of a good thing" territory. Stop sharing "everything" with each other. Good fences make good neighbours; healthy boundaries make healthy relationships.

It sounds like he doesn't know his own mind very well. He doesn't understand yet that you don't "have a beauty all your own"—you're just beautiful. You say he adores you, that you turn him on, that you have a deep bond and a great connection. So while he works on pulling his head out of his ass, maybe trust his actions more than his words.

But do tell him his words hurt you, ask him to be more careful in the future, and for your own part, if he doesn't want to tell you something? Respect that.

Good luck.
posted by Zozo at 11:42 AM on October 9, 2013 [3 favorites]


Other people have addressed the potential of your relationship, but I'd like to add that we really need some better terminology for this kind of discussion. The phrase "physical attractiveness" is ridiculously ambiguous.

If you read through the comments in this thread, you'll see that some people here use it to mean "conventional good looks" (the X out of 10 thing) and others use it to mean "sexual appeal," which is inherently subjective. It's become even more complicated in recent decades, now that the very different qualities of "cute" and "hot" are so often conflated.

I recommend deprecating the expression. It's not useful at all.
posted by tangerine at 1:08 PM on October 9, 2013


Seriously, why does it matter what he thinks of your looks? If he's with you, he's with you.

If you're deriving self-esteem from his opinion of your physical appearance, you need better sources of self-esteem.

People's looks and appearances change over time. The person you are attracted to today won't look the same 10 years from now, I assure you.
posted by PsuDab93 at 2:23 PM on October 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


« Older Cargo van options with decent gas mileage?   |   Flying to Chiapas (airport tgx) in Mexico Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.