Renter's Rights
October 5, 2013 6:57 AM Subscribe
Tonight I came home from a messy day's work and had to take a cold shower. Again. Because there was no hot water. Again. I'd like hot water. I really don't want to move. What are my options?
Posting anonymously so I can comfortably disclose that I live in Central Massachusetts, USA, and I am embarrassed about this problem. I'll explain the circumstances and follow it with my feelings about the whole thing. I'll gratefully accept feedback on either aspect, especially What can I do??
We lose hot water one day every two months on average, though we have had to live with cold water only for two and three days in a row on separate occasions. Sometimes the water is hot but not really hot enough: 100 degrees when I believe MA landlords are required to provide water at at least 110.
The landlord is an accessible enough guy who responds reasonably quickly to fix it when the hot water goes out... And, I made the mistake of not documenting these occurrences. We've been patient and tried to give him the benefit of the doubt when he offered explanations like he was upgrading the oil tank size (?) and, recently, switching from oil to gas.
The hot water issue isn't the only problem. Heat is included in our rent but it's October 5 now and still no heat. Snow removal is also sketchy. His hired help doesn't shovel the long-ish walkway until, usually, 3PM. And, when there's snow in the forecast we have to remind the landlord to send a plow because otherwise my car stays snowed in until *whenever* and, you know, I have to get to work.
There are other petty kinds of issues as well.
But, here comes the feeling bits: I feel like a spoiled brat complaining about these problems because, obviously, we're not the only people in the world that can't summon 110 degree water (or hotter) on demand from our faucet. I'm awesome at shoveling snow, so even if snow removal is supposed to be included in our $1000/month/2BR rent, nothing's stopping me from DIY "plowing". We don't want to move because the expense of moving would be a real setback, and can't we rectify this?? Plus we've made a cozy home for ourselves; my partner walks to work. We have one car and I have a quick and lovely commute.
The landlord has reasons and excuses and some kinds of explanations for the hot water thing. My guess is that the guy maybe inherited his real estate business and he's just not good at it! But, as I take ice cold birdbaths I imagine him to be more of a malicious slumlord jerkface (see: Hanlon's razor).
If I must move in order to be in a place where I might reliably get hot water, could I still seek justice with regard to this landlord, maybe warning future tenants about him? Given that I don't have a ton of money, is there anything I can do to fight for/protect my rights as a renter?
I'm hoping the guy will give us a key and some instructions for fixing the water problem on our own, and maybe letting me be his hired help when it comes to shoveling snow, and maybe I can even be a point of contact for his plow guy. But, my optimism is kind of killing me. /dramatics.
BTW There's no apartment manager. The landlord is it.
Posting anonymously so I can comfortably disclose that I live in Central Massachusetts, USA, and I am embarrassed about this problem. I'll explain the circumstances and follow it with my feelings about the whole thing. I'll gratefully accept feedback on either aspect, especially What can I do??
We lose hot water one day every two months on average, though we have had to live with cold water only for two and three days in a row on separate occasions. Sometimes the water is hot but not really hot enough: 100 degrees when I believe MA landlords are required to provide water at at least 110.
The landlord is an accessible enough guy who responds reasonably quickly to fix it when the hot water goes out... And, I made the mistake of not documenting these occurrences. We've been patient and tried to give him the benefit of the doubt when he offered explanations like he was upgrading the oil tank size (?) and, recently, switching from oil to gas.
The hot water issue isn't the only problem. Heat is included in our rent but it's October 5 now and still no heat. Snow removal is also sketchy. His hired help doesn't shovel the long-ish walkway until, usually, 3PM. And, when there's snow in the forecast we have to remind the landlord to send a plow because otherwise my car stays snowed in until *whenever* and, you know, I have to get to work.
There are other petty kinds of issues as well.
But, here comes the feeling bits: I feel like a spoiled brat complaining about these problems because, obviously, we're not the only people in the world that can't summon 110 degree water (or hotter) on demand from our faucet. I'm awesome at shoveling snow, so even if snow removal is supposed to be included in our $1000/month/2BR rent, nothing's stopping me from DIY "plowing". We don't want to move because the expense of moving would be a real setback, and can't we rectify this?? Plus we've made a cozy home for ourselves; my partner walks to work. We have one car and I have a quick and lovely commute.
The landlord has reasons and excuses and some kinds of explanations for the hot water thing. My guess is that the guy maybe inherited his real estate business and he's just not good at it! But, as I take ice cold birdbaths I imagine him to be more of a malicious slumlord jerkface (see: Hanlon's razor).
If I must move in order to be in a place where I might reliably get hot water, could I still seek justice with regard to this landlord, maybe warning future tenants about him? Given that I don't have a ton of money, is there anything I can do to fight for/protect my rights as a renter?
I'm hoping the guy will give us a key and some instructions for fixing the water problem on our own, and maybe letting me be his hired help when it comes to shoveling snow, and maybe I can even be a point of contact for his plow guy. But, my optimism is kind of killing me. /dramatics.
BTW There's no apartment manager. The landlord is it.
But, here comes the feeling bits: I feel like a spoiled brat complaining about these problems because, obviously, we're not the only people in the world that can't summon 110 degree water (or hotter) on demand from our faucet.
Paying for something and then expecting to receive that something is reasonable and does not make you a spoiled brat. If you pay for a meal, you shouldn't feel required to go back into the kitchen and help the chef because he doesn't know how to boil water.
If he doesn't know what he's doing w/r/t managing a property, continually shrugging off his incompetence isn't going to make things any better for you or any of the other renters. As advised above, I would start writing everything down and plan to either
a) contact a lawyer if you intend to stay or
b) contact a mover if you do not.
If I must move in order to be in a place where I might reliably get hot water, could I still seek justice with regard to this landlord, maybe warning future tenants about him? Given that I don't have a ton of money, is there anything I can do to fight for/protect my rights as a renter?
These are questions for a lawyer. Anyone can sue, but for what? Could you win? And if you win, could you collect?
posted by jquinby at 7:20 AM on October 5, 2013 [6 favorites]
Paying for something and then expecting to receive that something is reasonable and does not make you a spoiled brat. If you pay for a meal, you shouldn't feel required to go back into the kitchen and help the chef because he doesn't know how to boil water.
If he doesn't know what he's doing w/r/t managing a property, continually shrugging off his incompetence isn't going to make things any better for you or any of the other renters. As advised above, I would start writing everything down and plan to either
a) contact a lawyer if you intend to stay or
b) contact a mover if you do not.
If I must move in order to be in a place where I might reliably get hot water, could I still seek justice with regard to this landlord, maybe warning future tenants about him? Given that I don't have a ton of money, is there anything I can do to fight for/protect my rights as a renter?
These are questions for a lawyer. Anyone can sue, but for what? Could you win? And if you win, could you collect?
posted by jquinby at 7:20 AM on October 5, 2013 [6 favorites]
jquinby really hits the nail on the head.
You paid for a product. The landlord sold you a set of services and said "in exchange for your money, I will provide these." The landlord is not providing them, so you are being ripped off.
Don't shrug it off, and don't have martyr syndrome. First, read up on your rights. Then, have a clear conversation where you politely and respectfully demand that the landlord get his act together and give you what you are paying for. Then, put it in writing, and then, send your written request by certified mail. And then, if nothing happens, A.) contact a lawyer, contact your town board of health for an inspection to confirm that your water is not up to state law, contact state government, tenant rights organizations, or B.) get ready to move, and at least stick it to your landlord in the form of costing him a couple months' rent and money spent on improvements to find a new tenant.
You are not a spoiled brat for demanding what you paid for! Massachusetts takes your water problem very seriously: state law is very specific about how important hot water is and how quickly landlords must fix things if there is a problem.
posted by Old Man McKay at 8:09 AM on October 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
You paid for a product. The landlord sold you a set of services and said "in exchange for your money, I will provide these." The landlord is not providing them, so you are being ripped off.
Don't shrug it off, and don't have martyr syndrome. First, read up on your rights. Then, have a clear conversation where you politely and respectfully demand that the landlord get his act together and give you what you are paying for. Then, put it in writing, and then, send your written request by certified mail. And then, if nothing happens, A.) contact a lawyer, contact your town board of health for an inspection to confirm that your water is not up to state law, contact state government, tenant rights organizations, or B.) get ready to move, and at least stick it to your landlord in the form of costing him a couple months' rent and money spent on improvements to find a new tenant.
You are not a spoiled brat for demanding what you paid for! Massachusetts takes your water problem very seriously: state law is very specific about how important hot water is and how quickly landlords must fix things if there is a problem.
posted by Old Man McKay at 8:09 AM on October 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
The only part of this that sounds spoiled or petty to me is that you seem to expect the hot water and the heat and the shoveling and the plowing to always work perfectly and never, ever break down, be late, or require you to call the landlord.
It sounds like your landlord needs reminding about the plowing, but if he sends one when you call him and ask, I'd say he's fulfilling his commitment. Clearing the sidewalk by 3pm doesn't sound that bad to me. Each city and town has its own law about when sidewalks must be cleared, but in Worcester, for example, it has to be done within 10 hours after it stops snowing. Not 10 hours after sunrise, but 10 hours after the snow stops falling, so 3pm might be perfectly legal, and after a heavy storm I would have a hard time complaining about that considering all the miles and miles of sidewalk to be cleared all over the state.
I would agree that it's poor communication on your landlord's part to replace the oil tank or upgrade your furnace and/or water heater without giving you advance notice that, hey, no hot water on X and Y days, so sorry for the inconvenience. But the amount of time you've been without hot water doesn't sound very bad to me, honestly, if we assume those long stretches were indeed for upgrade work.
Hot water heaters and furnaces have pilot lights that occasionally go out and need to be relit. This is normal and not something that makes your landlord a bad dude for not telepathically sensing when it happens. It's reasonable for you to have to call him to check the furnace if your heat isn't on yet. Your idea is also a really good one-- if he's willing to teach you how to light the water heater and furnace safely, and let you do it on your own, that would save both of you some trouble. Once or twice a year I wake up to a cold shower, which invariably means the pilot light went out the previous day. I relight it myself without even thinking of asking my landlord, even though he actually lives in my building. I won't have a hot shower that morning, but it will be hot again by evening.
Also, hot water heaters can be adjusted to keep the water at a hotter or cooler temperature. It's reasonable to have to ask your landlord, if you haven't already, if he can move the setting a little hotter for you.
posted by Dixon Ticonderoga at 8:21 AM on October 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
It sounds like your landlord needs reminding about the plowing, but if he sends one when you call him and ask, I'd say he's fulfilling his commitment. Clearing the sidewalk by 3pm doesn't sound that bad to me. Each city and town has its own law about when sidewalks must be cleared, but in Worcester, for example, it has to be done within 10 hours after it stops snowing. Not 10 hours after sunrise, but 10 hours after the snow stops falling, so 3pm might be perfectly legal, and after a heavy storm I would have a hard time complaining about that considering all the miles and miles of sidewalk to be cleared all over the state.
I would agree that it's poor communication on your landlord's part to replace the oil tank or upgrade your furnace and/or water heater without giving you advance notice that, hey, no hot water on X and Y days, so sorry for the inconvenience. But the amount of time you've been without hot water doesn't sound very bad to me, honestly, if we assume those long stretches were indeed for upgrade work.
Hot water heaters and furnaces have pilot lights that occasionally go out and need to be relit. This is normal and not something that makes your landlord a bad dude for not telepathically sensing when it happens. It's reasonable for you to have to call him to check the furnace if your heat isn't on yet. Your idea is also a really good one-- if he's willing to teach you how to light the water heater and furnace safely, and let you do it on your own, that would save both of you some trouble. Once or twice a year I wake up to a cold shower, which invariably means the pilot light went out the previous day. I relight it myself without even thinking of asking my landlord, even though he actually lives in my building. I won't have a hot shower that morning, but it will be hot again by evening.
Also, hot water heaters can be adjusted to keep the water at a hotter or cooler temperature. It's reasonable to have to ask your landlord, if you haven't already, if he can move the setting a little hotter for you.
posted by Dixon Ticonderoga at 8:21 AM on October 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
Where is the hot water heater in your building? Is it locked up? Can you see it? Or is it some giant, ancient boiler behind a padlocked door (had that in one building I lived in)? It would be helpful for you to know the brand and what temperature the heater is set at. And you could take photos.
Since you like the place and would prefer to stay you could come at this from more friendly angle and try to work with your landlord. He might be eligible for rebates, tax credits or low interest loans to upgrade the equipment.. You should sit down with him and explain your issues and see what he's willing to do to resolve them permanently.
posted by brookeb at 8:23 AM on October 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
Since you like the place and would prefer to stay you could come at this from more friendly angle and try to work with your landlord. He might be eligible for rebates, tax credits or low interest loans to upgrade the equipment.. You should sit down with him and explain your issues and see what he's willing to do to resolve them permanently.
posted by brookeb at 8:23 AM on October 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
As an attorney that does some landlord/tenant practice, on the tenant side no less, my first advice is to consult with a local attorney. You might get some traction with a local legal aid outfit, and your county/municipality probably has some information for renters on their website.
That being said, there's a big difference between a landlord who doesn't do things well (which is what you've got) and a landlord who just doesn't do things at all (which is what a lot of other people have). Hot water does, in fact, occasionally go out, even in the best-managed apartments in the country. As long as it's fixed in a day or two, that's generally more a "customer service" issue than a "breach of contract" issue. Same goes for snow removal. There's a difference between clearing snow at 3PM the afternoon after a storm and clearing it a day or two later, or not at all.
In short, your landlord is required to do various things both by contract and by law, and your complaint isn't so much that he's simply not doing them as much as that you wish he'd do them better/quicker. That's a much harder case to win. A lot of what's going on here strikes me as falling into the "Inconvenient but not unreasonable" category, which would make it very difficult to do anything about legally.
From where I'm sitting--and again, you should get local, qualified advice, as IANYL--you've got basically three options. First, you can deal with it. Second, you can try to work with your landlord to make things better, which you may or may not be able to do. Third, you can move. Nothing you've said here* jumps out at me as a great claim in terms of likely remedies. Landlords, like almost every other business, have a lot of leeway within the letter of the law in deciding how much they're going to work to please their customers, and customers' most powerful tool in such situations is taking their business elsewhere. Unlike retail merchants, however, landlords are selling a non-fungible good for which there is significant demand, so they're a lot less susceptible to such pressures than they might otherwise be.
*Other than the issue of the water not being hot enough, which seems like an ongoing problem that should be pretty easy to have fixed.
posted by valkyryn at 10:32 AM on October 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
That being said, there's a big difference between a landlord who doesn't do things well (which is what you've got) and a landlord who just doesn't do things at all (which is what a lot of other people have). Hot water does, in fact, occasionally go out, even in the best-managed apartments in the country. As long as it's fixed in a day or two, that's generally more a "customer service" issue than a "breach of contract" issue. Same goes for snow removal. There's a difference between clearing snow at 3PM the afternoon after a storm and clearing it a day or two later, or not at all.
In short, your landlord is required to do various things both by contract and by law, and your complaint isn't so much that he's simply not doing them as much as that you wish he'd do them better/quicker. That's a much harder case to win. A lot of what's going on here strikes me as falling into the "Inconvenient but not unreasonable" category, which would make it very difficult to do anything about legally.
From where I'm sitting--and again, you should get local, qualified advice, as IANYL--you've got basically three options. First, you can deal with it. Second, you can try to work with your landlord to make things better, which you may or may not be able to do. Third, you can move. Nothing you've said here* jumps out at me as a great claim in terms of likely remedies. Landlords, like almost every other business, have a lot of leeway within the letter of the law in deciding how much they're going to work to please their customers, and customers' most powerful tool in such situations is taking their business elsewhere. Unlike retail merchants, however, landlords are selling a non-fungible good for which there is significant demand, so they're a lot less susceptible to such pressures than they might otherwise be.
*Other than the issue of the water not being hot enough, which seems like an ongoing problem that should be pretty easy to have fixed.
posted by valkyryn at 10:32 AM on October 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
anonymous posted">> We lose hot water one day every two months on average, though we have had to live with cold water only for two and three days in a row on separate occasions. Sometimes the water is hot but not really hot enough: 100 degrees when I believe MA landlords are required to provide water at at least 110.
This isn't you being a brat because occasionally something goes wrong. This is an ongoing problem, multiple problems really, and he needs to get the hot water system repaired for real-for real.
posted by desuetude at 1:05 PM on October 5, 2013
This isn't you being a brat because occasionally something goes wrong. This is an ongoing problem, multiple problems really, and he needs to get the hot water system repaired for real-for real.
posted by desuetude at 1:05 PM on October 5, 2013
I usually comment on what do in these sorts of situations, and whether expectations are realistic, etc.
What i will say is that the hot water thing, and
Heat is included in our rent but it's October 5 now and still no heat.
Are EXTREMELY common in buildings that include heat and have a central heat+hot water system. I lived in a fairly upscale but old place(which is now charging absolutely egregious rents for my city) where it was pretty common for the hot water to go out once a month, and the heat to randomly go out and only kick on during the day or kick on and heat the place to like 90f at night.
Are there legal requirements for heat and hot water? Yes. They vary from city to city and state to state, but them existing seems to be a 100% everywhere thing. Occupancy seens to always require heat, and often require hot water from what i've seen.
Now, regardless of if this is illegal it is very VERY common in old buildings like this for the hot water and heat to just be freaking unreliable if it's central. I've seen it at multiple places i've lived, and visited even more friends places(and had my parents tell me many stories about it in my city) where it's just a super common thing.
The ritzy place i lived at poured more and more and more money in to, and eventually replaced the entire boiler and such and there were STILL constant issues with inconsistent heat and the hot water cutting out as they constantly had to replace bits of pipe different places in the building that clogged or failed, etc. Actually killing the problem dead might involve redoing all the plumbing and heating for the entire building, which besides being prohibitively expensive might require kicking everyone out.
I'm not saying they aren't just doing stupid cheap bandaid fixes themselves or with a plumber they're in cahoots with, but it is possible that it's just an old as fuck flaky system. This may be more of a mechanical problem than a human problem. To once again reference the place i lived, a lawyer lived there. He drafted up a letter and got a SHITLOAD of tenants to sign it(like 70% or something, in a 120-ish unit building). He presented it to the property owners with a really stern legal threat that they were violating city ordinances and the landlord tenant act and bla bla bla they had been given all the required notice. That's when they replaced the boiler, and redid some plumbing.
Shit was still flaky when i moved out.
I mean, make an effort here but i'm questioning whether this will ever not be a thing. And if it bothers you as much as it bothered me(one of the last straws was when i got pulled aside by a manager at work and given a stern talking to because i stunk on a day that there was no hot water and i couldn't take a shower) you're probably just going to have to move. It's one of those situations where they are in the wrong and you're morally/legally/everything in the right, but you have to question whether the problem will really be solved or change in any meaningful way.
posted by emptythought at 2:51 PM on October 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
What i will say is that the hot water thing, and
Heat is included in our rent but it's October 5 now and still no heat.
Are EXTREMELY common in buildings that include heat and have a central heat+hot water system. I lived in a fairly upscale but old place(which is now charging absolutely egregious rents for my city) where it was pretty common for the hot water to go out once a month, and the heat to randomly go out and only kick on during the day or kick on and heat the place to like 90f at night.
Are there legal requirements for heat and hot water? Yes. They vary from city to city and state to state, but them existing seems to be a 100% everywhere thing. Occupancy seens to always require heat, and often require hot water from what i've seen.
Now, regardless of if this is illegal it is very VERY common in old buildings like this for the hot water and heat to just be freaking unreliable if it's central. I've seen it at multiple places i've lived, and visited even more friends places(and had my parents tell me many stories about it in my city) where it's just a super common thing.
The ritzy place i lived at poured more and more and more money in to, and eventually replaced the entire boiler and such and there were STILL constant issues with inconsistent heat and the hot water cutting out as they constantly had to replace bits of pipe different places in the building that clogged or failed, etc. Actually killing the problem dead might involve redoing all the plumbing and heating for the entire building, which besides being prohibitively expensive might require kicking everyone out.
I'm not saying they aren't just doing stupid cheap bandaid fixes themselves or with a plumber they're in cahoots with, but it is possible that it's just an old as fuck flaky system. This may be more of a mechanical problem than a human problem. To once again reference the place i lived, a lawyer lived there. He drafted up a letter and got a SHITLOAD of tenants to sign it(like 70% or something, in a 120-ish unit building). He presented it to the property owners with a really stern legal threat that they were violating city ordinances and the landlord tenant act and bla bla bla they had been given all the required notice. That's when they replaced the boiler, and redid some plumbing.
Shit was still flaky when i moved out.
I mean, make an effort here but i'm questioning whether this will ever not be a thing. And if it bothers you as much as it bothered me(one of the last straws was when i got pulled aside by a manager at work and given a stern talking to because i stunk on a day that there was no hot water and i couldn't take a shower) you're probably just going to have to move. It's one of those situations where they are in the wrong and you're morally/legally/everything in the right, but you have to question whether the problem will really be solved or change in any meaningful way.
posted by emptythought at 2:51 PM on October 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
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(I am not a lawyer, but I am a tenant in MA. My landlord is awesome. He looks like Chris Meloni and mows the lawn with his shirt off.)
posted by xingcat at 7:05 AM on October 5, 2013 [2 favorites]