WeddingFilter: Church Service Self-Invite?
August 7, 2013 7:52 AM Subscribe
Is someone 'allowed' to invite themselves to the church service of an acquaintance's wedding? Technically allowed, or socially allowed? Are church services 'open'? [Snowflakey fact scenario inside.]
OK. I am part of a group of friends going back, oh, twenty years. Sister Renault is part of this group as well. A member of our circle of friends is getting married, at long last. Hooray!
Over these past twenty years, my sister and I have talked about the groom an awful lot, because he's an energetic, positive sort who always has a lot going on in his life. As such, Mother Renault knows a lot about him. She's met him a number of times over the years.
Fast forward to last Christmas, when it was my turn to host the group's semi-annual dinner. The group has grown a bit with spouses and kids, and my place is a bit too small for that kind of gettogether, so I borrowed Mother Renault's house for the evening. The dinner went well, and Mother Renault was a part of that dinner. She loves being hostess, and dove right into the whole thing, even though that was not my intention at all (I was just borrowing her house). At the end of the evening, once everyone had left, she made a comment about her having a new group of friends.
Not to be proprietary or anything, but still wanting to keep a separation of worlds thing going, particularly with a bunch of people who know a lot of stories about you in your youth, Sister Renault and I shut that down pretty quick. Or so we thought.
Yesterday, the wedding invites came in the mail. My sister got hers, and I got mine. Talked about it on the phone whith Mother Renault, becuase it's good news, and big news. Immediately, Mother Renault seized upon MY invite's reading "and Guest". She was inviting herself to the wedding as my guest. Umm, no. No thanks, Hell no, no fucking way.
She then floated this idea of going to the church service, 'to see you two', which given the regularity of our contact, is a flimsy excuse. Sister Renault and I respectively spoke against that idea, but... who knows?
SO MY QUESTION, FINALLY: Is someone allowed to invite themselves to the church service of a wedding?
If it matters: it's a Catholic service. Mother Renault is a widow of several years, but has large circles of her own friends, whom she may or may not be tired of. I don't think the bride and groom would mind, but...
SO WHAT SAY YOU ALL? Is self-inviting/crashing the church service even 'permissible' (whatever that means)?
Thank you all in advance for your well-considered, much-appreciated insights.
OK. I am part of a group of friends going back, oh, twenty years. Sister Renault is part of this group as well. A member of our circle of friends is getting married, at long last. Hooray!
Over these past twenty years, my sister and I have talked about the groom an awful lot, because he's an energetic, positive sort who always has a lot going on in his life. As such, Mother Renault knows a lot about him. She's met him a number of times over the years.
Fast forward to last Christmas, when it was my turn to host the group's semi-annual dinner. The group has grown a bit with spouses and kids, and my place is a bit too small for that kind of gettogether, so I borrowed Mother Renault's house for the evening. The dinner went well, and Mother Renault was a part of that dinner. She loves being hostess, and dove right into the whole thing, even though that was not my intention at all (I was just borrowing her house). At the end of the evening, once everyone had left, she made a comment about her having a new group of friends.
Not to be proprietary or anything, but still wanting to keep a separation of worlds thing going, particularly with a bunch of people who know a lot of stories about you in your youth, Sister Renault and I shut that down pretty quick. Or so we thought.
Yesterday, the wedding invites came in the mail. My sister got hers, and I got mine. Talked about it on the phone whith Mother Renault, becuase it's good news, and big news. Immediately, Mother Renault seized upon MY invite's reading "and Guest". She was inviting herself to the wedding as my guest. Umm, no. No thanks, Hell no, no fucking way.
She then floated this idea of going to the church service, 'to see you two', which given the regularity of our contact, is a flimsy excuse. Sister Renault and I respectively spoke against that idea, but... who knows?
SO MY QUESTION, FINALLY: Is someone allowed to invite themselves to the church service of a wedding?
If it matters: it's a Catholic service. Mother Renault is a widow of several years, but has large circles of her own friends, whom she may or may not be tired of. I don't think the bride and groom would mind, but...
SO WHAT SAY YOU ALL? Is self-inviting/crashing the church service even 'permissible' (whatever that means)?
Thank you all in advance for your well-considered, much-appreciated insights.
Crashing church services of both weddings and funerals is something I see regularly from older women (both roman and eastern rite catholic). It's kind of nice to have a full church at a wedding no?
I don't think it's a big deal, particularly if it's their church. Weddings are a recognition of the couple by the community, and historically everyone in the parish would show up.
Inviting herself to the reception? that would be the big NO.
posted by larthegreat at 7:58 AM on August 7, 2013 [10 favorites]
I don't think it's a big deal, particularly if it's their church. Weddings are a recognition of the couple by the community, and historically everyone in the parish would show up.
Inviting herself to the reception? that would be the big NO.
posted by larthegreat at 7:58 AM on August 7, 2013 [10 favorites]
NO
posted by Sticherbeast at 7:59 AM on August 7, 2013
posted by Sticherbeast at 7:59 AM on August 7, 2013
I know that members of the same church may feel like they have an open invitation to the church service, but honestly, NO!
Your Mom is just losing her damn mind. This is perfectly normal. My own parents are losing their filters and just doing and saying whateverthefuck they want.
Sit her down and say, "Mom, from what I understand this is a small wedding with a set guest list. I'm taking X to the wedding." Leave it at that.
Enjoy the guilt trip.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 8:00 AM on August 7, 2013 [7 favorites]
Your Mom is just losing her damn mind. This is perfectly normal. My own parents are losing their filters and just doing and saying whateverthefuck they want.
Sit her down and say, "Mom, from what I understand this is a small wedding with a set guest list. I'm taking X to the wedding." Leave it at that.
Enjoy the guilt trip.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 8:00 AM on August 7, 2013 [7 favorites]
She then floated this idea of going to the church service, 'to see you two',
If she wants to go as an excuse to see her kids (i.e. you) no.
If she wants to go to actually see and support the folks getting hitched, then maybe. I think she should speak to the priest (it's her church?) and see what his opinion is.
posted by phunniemee at 8:00 AM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
If she wants to go as an excuse to see her kids (i.e. you) no.
If she wants to go to actually see and support the folks getting hitched, then maybe. I think she should speak to the priest (it's her church?) and see what his opinion is.
posted by phunniemee at 8:00 AM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Is someone allowed to invite themselves to the church service of a wedding? Yes, although, technically, the person is not "inviting themselves to the church service of a wedding" but is merely entering the sanctuary while a wedding mass is being performed.
Every Catholic mass wedding I have ever attended has had a random parishoner or two in the church during the service.
The interpersonal ramifications have nothing to do with whether or not it is proper or permissible to come into the church while a wedding mass is in progress.
posted by crush-onastick at 8:01 AM on August 7, 2013 [13 favorites]
Every Catholic mass wedding I have ever attended has had a random parishoner or two in the church during the service.
The interpersonal ramifications have nothing to do with whether or not it is proper or permissible to come into the church while a wedding mass is in progress.
posted by crush-onastick at 8:01 AM on August 7, 2013 [13 favorites]
and see what his opinion is.
I should add--with the assumption that his answer will be a firm no, but this way it would come from a source she presumably respects and would listen to, instead of just from you.
posted by phunniemee at 8:02 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
I should add--with the assumption that his answer will be a firm no, but this way it would come from a source she presumably respects and would listen to, instead of just from you.
posted by phunniemee at 8:02 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Best answer: To the church service part at a Catholic Church, yes, this is technically a regular Mass open to anyone who wishes to attend. However, in the United States, it is not typical to attend someone's wedding Mass unless you're invited. This may differ in particular communities (very tight parishes, many elderly people who attend Mass frequently, weddings performed at regular Sunday Mass times, whatever), but as a general thing it's a little socially odd -- but ABSOLUTELY permissible as a Catholic religious/theological etiquette thing.
To the reception, absolutely not unless you're invited.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:02 AM on August 7, 2013 [12 favorites]
To the reception, absolutely not unless you're invited.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:02 AM on August 7, 2013 [12 favorites]
Personally, I would say inviting yourself to a church service (even a wedding) is fine. Churches are open. Historically the whole parish came out for a wedding, and there's something fairly a little unChristian about turning someone away from a service. On the other hand, that's my opinion, not the opinion of the priest or the bride or the groom; I'd ask them.
Inviting yourself to the reception is obviously a no.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:02 AM on August 7, 2013 [3 favorites]
Inviting yourself to the reception is obviously a no.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:02 AM on August 7, 2013 [3 favorites]
(I'm not going to touch the dramarama with your mom trying to join your circle of friends.)
Crashing the wedding reception is Absolutely Not Done (or rather it is occasionally done but is obviously bad form.) Find yourself a person to be your AND GUEST who is not your mom.
Crashing the ceremony itself... if it's a small ceremony where an uninvited face would stand out, not a great idea. But if it's a big church wedding, meh, it's a bit odd but not a huge deal.
posted by ook at 8:03 AM on August 7, 2013
Crashing the wedding reception is Absolutely Not Done (or rather it is occasionally done but is obviously bad form.) Find yourself a person to be your AND GUEST who is not your mom.
Crashing the ceremony itself... if it's a small ceremony where an uninvited face would stand out, not a great idea. But if it's a big church wedding, meh, it's a bit odd but not a huge deal.
posted by ook at 8:03 AM on August 7, 2013
Technically allowed (using a Miss Manners standard)? Yes. Socially allowed? Depends highly on the people getting married and the church. As said above, it seems to be common in some Catholic parishes, so I wouldn't die on this hill unless you think she'll try to jump in your car on the way to the reception.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:03 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:03 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
In my world (former Catholic), anybody can come to a church service, whether it's a regular mass/service, wedding or funeral. Nobody bats an eye. I saw several people (mostly my mom's friends) at my wedding who we didn't specifically invite. It is a public place, after all.
You can't invite yourself to the reception, but the church part itself, sure.
Edited to add: I grew up in Chicago and suburbs, where Catholic churches were on almost every corner and everybody knew everybody else's business anyway.
posted by SuperSquirrel at 8:04 AM on August 7, 2013 [3 favorites]
You can't invite yourself to the reception, but the church part itself, sure.
Edited to add: I grew up in Chicago and suburbs, where Catholic churches were on almost every corner and everybody knew everybody else's business anyway.
posted by SuperSquirrel at 8:04 AM on August 7, 2013 [3 favorites]
phunniemee: "with the assumption that his [the priest's] answer will be a firm no"
The answer from the priest will definitely be a yes, barring very extraordinary circumstances; a priest cannot and should not bar individuals (particularly practicing Catholics, but really anyone who wants to attend) from attending Mass at any time a public Mass is offered. They may bar individuals from receiving the Eucharist for various reasons, but not from attending Mass. So, don't do this because you'll either get the wrong answer, or put the priest in a super-awkward position.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:05 AM on August 7, 2013 [18 favorites]
The answer from the priest will definitely be a yes, barring very extraordinary circumstances; a priest cannot and should not bar individuals (particularly practicing Catholics, but really anyone who wants to attend) from attending Mass at any time a public Mass is offered. They may bar individuals from receiving the Eucharist for various reasons, but not from attending Mass. So, don't do this because you'll either get the wrong answer, or put the priest in a super-awkward position.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:05 AM on August 7, 2013 [18 favorites]
Response by poster: Find yourself a person to be your AND GUEST who is not your mom.
I should add that it is rather unlikely that I will be bringing a guest, and Mother Renault knows it. There's an open spot on the bus, so to speak.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:07 AM on August 7, 2013
I should add that it is rather unlikely that I will be bringing a guest, and Mother Renault knows it. There's an open spot on the bus, so to speak.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:07 AM on August 7, 2013
I would add, wedding masses are usually announced in the church circular and on the parish calendar. Back when I was part of a parish, these announcements always included encouragement that anyone acquainted with the couple or the family might want to come to the mass, to celebrate as a community. Same thing with baptisms. It's a rite of the Church and a community event.
posted by crush-onastick at 8:09 AM on August 7, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by crush-onastick at 8:09 AM on August 7, 2013 [4 favorites]
I should add that it is rather unlikely that I will be bringing a guest, and Mother Renault knows it. There's an open spot on the bus, so to speak.
You can immediately RSVP as a solo guest. The couple will then plan for one head instead of two and it would be quite a faux pas for your mother to attend the reception as your guest, just as much as if you'd been invited solo and she tagged along.
I feel, though, that if we are really talking about what is and isn't proper etiquette, the circumstances of the Christmas party indicate to me that your mother felt she was hosting the dinner, and that seems like a fair assumption on her part. It seems to me like taking advantage of your mother a bit to "borrow" her house, knowing that she would be present at the dinner, and then try to cut her off from the people she now thinks of as her guests and friends. I think you can do what you can to make sure she doesn't attend the wedding as your plus-one, but beyond that, what she does is really an issue between her and the couple.
posted by payoto at 8:19 AM on August 7, 2013 [7 favorites]
You can immediately RSVP as a solo guest. The couple will then plan for one head instead of two and it would be quite a faux pas for your mother to attend the reception as your guest, just as much as if you'd been invited solo and she tagged along.
I feel, though, that if we are really talking about what is and isn't proper etiquette, the circumstances of the Christmas party indicate to me that your mother felt she was hosting the dinner, and that seems like a fair assumption on her part. It seems to me like taking advantage of your mother a bit to "borrow" her house, knowing that she would be present at the dinner, and then try to cut her off from the people she now thinks of as her guests and friends. I think you can do what you can to make sure she doesn't attend the wedding as your plus-one, but beyond that, what she does is really an issue between her and the couple.
posted by payoto at 8:19 AM on August 7, 2013 [7 favorites]
Is it permissible? Sure. People do it. As you've likely gleaned from the variety of responses in this thread, some people would see it as a minor faux pas, some people would see it as a huge etiquette breach, and some people wouldn't have any kind of problem with it. I suppose the only people whose opinions matter are the bride and groom.
I don't know. It's a mom thing. FAMOUS MOTHER is (fairly) recently widowed, and she has her own friends her own age but she also really likes being around younger folks (people the age of her kids) and babies and people like that. There's an affirmation there, the idea that you are still a part of the world and still wanted and still needed. And then one gets older and it's nice to see that there are still weddings and births and the world is getting along fine.
So if I were in your situation I would make sure your mom understands (and acknowledges at least once) that we're talking about the church ceremony and not the reception here, but then sure, I wouldn't bat an eyelash if she showed up at the church.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 8:20 AM on August 7, 2013 [4 favorites]
I don't know. It's a mom thing. FAMOUS MOTHER is (fairly) recently widowed, and she has her own friends her own age but she also really likes being around younger folks (people the age of her kids) and babies and people like that. There's an affirmation there, the idea that you are still a part of the world and still wanted and still needed. And then one gets older and it's nice to see that there are still weddings and births and the world is getting along fine.
So if I were in your situation I would make sure your mom understands (and acknowledges at least once) that we're talking about the church ceremony and not the reception here, but then sure, I wouldn't bat an eyelash if she showed up at the church.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 8:20 AM on August 7, 2013 [4 favorites]
I think that it is a more common view especially among older folks that church services (even for "private events") are open. This is absolutely not true for everyone; doubly-so for the reception afterwards. My family is Catholic and my mother has at least mentioned doing this in the past. The chances that the bride or groom will recognize her out of the crowd in the crush of everything is unlikely if they're having a medium-sized wedding.
That said, you have no obligation to bring her to any part of this wedding, even if you have a plus-one spot still open. Explain that the couple wants this to be a more private event and ceremony and that you'll be happy to tell her all about it/show pictures afterwards.
posted by jetlagaddict at 8:21 AM on August 7, 2013
That said, you have no obligation to bring her to any part of this wedding, even if you have a plus-one spot still open. Explain that the couple wants this to be a more private event and ceremony and that you'll be happy to tell her all about it/show pictures afterwards.
posted by jetlagaddict at 8:21 AM on August 7, 2013
In my culture (Roman Catholic) a church wedding is a mass so anyone can attend. It would, in fact, be strange to BAR people from going to church while a wedding was taking place.
Her inviting herself as your guest to the reception is obviously a whole other kettle of fish (hell to the no) but the service itself? I see no problem with that.
posted by lydhre at 8:25 AM on August 7, 2013 [3 favorites]
Her inviting herself as your guest to the reception is obviously a whole other kettle of fish (hell to the no) but the service itself? I see no problem with that.
posted by lydhre at 8:25 AM on August 7, 2013 [3 favorites]
I should add that it is rather unlikely that I will be bringing a guest
AskMetafilter.
And yes, technically, Catholic masses are open to all, and a wedding is a mass.
If you can make it clear that the reception is absolutely, positively closed to her, I see no harm in letting her come, but I get the feeling that may be impossible.
posted by oflinkey at 8:26 AM on August 7, 2013
AskMetafilter.
And yes, technically, Catholic masses are open to all, and a wedding is a mass.
If you can make it clear that the reception is absolutely, positively closed to her, I see no harm in letting her come, but I get the feeling that may be impossible.
posted by oflinkey at 8:26 AM on August 7, 2013
Is someone allowed to invite themselves to the church service of a wedding?
I think that the church ceremony should be more-or-less open and, among the churches I've been members of, it is with the tacit or explicit consent of the couple. In both cases where I didn't have a wedding invite from a couple that people I went to church with, they verbally invited me to the ceremony.
I would never make that assumption outside of that context though. I'd never invite myself to the ceremony of someone I was only an acquaintance with unless they invited me to come by the ceremony. I'd be mortified.
posted by deanc at 8:28 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think that the church ceremony should be more-or-less open and, among the churches I've been members of, it is with the tacit or explicit consent of the couple. In both cases where I didn't have a wedding invite from a couple that people I went to church with, they verbally invited me to the ceremony.
I would never make that assumption outside of that context though. I'd never invite myself to the ceremony of someone I was only an acquaintance with unless they invited me to come by the ceremony. I'd be mortified.
posted by deanc at 8:28 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
How far off is this wedding? Is it, with any luck, far enough in the future that --- by keeping total silence (both you and your sister) around Mom as to when the wedding will occur --- that she won't know the specific date?
posted by easily confused at 8:28 AM on August 7, 2013
posted by easily confused at 8:28 AM on August 7, 2013
Best answer: Chiming in to say 1) Listen to Eyebrows McGee, she knows her stuff, and 2) I think it's totally ok for random people to be at the church part of a wedding. I know my parents had random people attend theirs and go through the receiving line and tell them it was beautiful. But inviting herself to specifically be your +1 is not ok.
posted by Ms Vegetable at 8:32 AM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Ms Vegetable at 8:32 AM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
Here are some guidelines as to whether no one would blink an eye if your mom came to the wedding ceremony:
a) The church is in the same town/city as your mom lives in and nearby
b) You mom is a member of that church
c) The ceremony is before or after some other open service that is going on that your mom is going to be at, anyway
d) The couple asked her to come
Some combination of these things should be in place to fit the context of coming to an "open ceremony." Otherwise she's just inviting herself over.
posted by deanc at 8:33 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
a) The church is in the same town/city as your mom lives in and nearby
b) You mom is a member of that church
c) The ceremony is before or after some other open service that is going on that your mom is going to be at, anyway
d) The couple asked her to come
Some combination of these things should be in place to fit the context of coming to an "open ceremony." Otherwise she's just inviting herself over.
posted by deanc at 8:33 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Well, you used her house, made her feel part of the group, aren't planning on taking a guest--why not bring her? She won't be the only older person there, and unless she's got a history of bad public behaviour (drunkeness, etc.) I think it's a kindness. The two people getting married aren't likely to notice one way or another, I'd bet.
posted by Ideefixe at 8:35 AM on August 7, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by Ideefixe at 8:35 AM on August 7, 2013 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: How far off is this wedding?
November. She knows the date, she knows the church.
She will be on babysitting duty for Sister Renault for at least the reception portion of the wedding. There is no question about her attending the reception -- she will not be at the reception.
My question is only about inviting oneself to the church portion.
It is a Catholic church, but not Mother Renault's parish, which is in a different town. She is a non-practicing Catholic. The groom is very Catholic. The bride I understand to be agnostic, if not outright athiest. That divide is the main reason why the couple has taken to long to get to the altar -- and how that divide was reconciled, I really have no idea, and that's none of my business.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:37 AM on August 7, 2013
November. She knows the date, she knows the church.
She will be on babysitting duty for Sister Renault for at least the reception portion of the wedding. There is no question about her attending the reception -- she will not be at the reception.
My question is only about inviting oneself to the church portion.
It is a Catholic church, but not Mother Renault's parish, which is in a different town. She is a non-practicing Catholic. The groom is very Catholic. The bride I understand to be agnostic, if not outright athiest. That divide is the main reason why the couple has taken to long to get to the altar -- and how that divide was reconciled, I really have no idea, and that's none of my business.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:37 AM on August 7, 2013
I'm going to go with payoto and say your mother probably thinks it's natural that she would be included, given the backstory. Separating the service from the reception-- explaining to her that she is not invited to the latter-- could become difficult and indeed hurtful. If I were you, I would probably just take her to the wedding as my guest unless I felt it would totally cramp my style around my friends. Anyone who thinks they are going to be best friends with the couple just because they went to the wedding is nuts.
posted by BibiRose at 8:37 AM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by BibiRose at 8:37 AM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
> No thanks, Hell no, no fucking way
Why not?
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:38 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Why not?
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:38 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Your post crossed with my first one. Sounds if she attends, it's kind of a non-problem now.
posted by BibiRose at 8:38 AM on August 7, 2013
posted by BibiRose at 8:38 AM on August 7, 2013
It is a Catholic church, but not Mother Renault's parish. She is a non-practicing Catholic.
If this is the case, let her join y'all. The church service is open to all technically, because, it's a church. I've always seen random folks at my friends Catholic weddings. No one thinks anything of it.
If you're not opposed, it's harmless to have her attend the ceremony, you'll get some points in heaven.
You might want to mention it to the Bride and Groom, "Hey, my Mom wants to watch your ceremony, do you mind very much?"
Chances are, they won't.
She sits with you and your sister, and then she bails before the reception.
Peace is preserved, life goes on and if you're lucky, it's an afternoon out of your life.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 8:41 AM on August 7, 2013 [17 favorites]
If this is the case, let her join y'all. The church service is open to all technically, because, it's a church. I've always seen random folks at my friends Catholic weddings. No one thinks anything of it.
If you're not opposed, it's harmless to have her attend the ceremony, you'll get some points in heaven.
You might want to mention it to the Bride and Groom, "Hey, my Mom wants to watch your ceremony, do you mind very much?"
Chances are, they won't.
She sits with you and your sister, and then she bails before the reception.
Peace is preserved, life goes on and if you're lucky, it's an afternoon out of your life.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 8:41 AM on August 7, 2013 [17 favorites]
Best answer: Former observant Roman Catholic now observant Eastern Orthodox.
Eyebrows has it. There is no such thing as a private Catholic church service. The canons are really clear on this. Any person, Catholic or not, is allowed to be in the church so long as they are behaving and not disrupting the service by playing a banjo, standing up like a candle when everyone is sitting, that sort of thing. The church is a community, so people don't get excluded. They could be a member of that parish, a Catholic from another parish, an atheist, a Hindu, a Satanist - anyone. We want you there so long as you don't make a distracting commotion.
People have assumed that this is a Mass, but there is also such a thing as a Liturgy of the Word wedding that is not a Mass. This is often the ceremony if one member of the marriage is not Catholic because it can be awkward for only one of the couple to receive the Eucharist, like in this case where one is agnostic/atheist. But, the same rule of non-exclusion applies. Mom gets to show up so long as she doesn't make a ruckus. (your internal agitation at your mother's presence is not a ruckus)
Crashing the reception, on the other hand, is absolutely not acceptable. But, your update says she absolutely will not crash the reception.
It's a public ceremony in a public place and it's not your wedding. Leave it alone.
posted by Tanizaki at 8:42 AM on August 7, 2013 [14 favorites]
Eyebrows has it. There is no such thing as a private Catholic church service. The canons are really clear on this. Any person, Catholic or not, is allowed to be in the church so long as they are behaving and not disrupting the service by playing a banjo, standing up like a candle when everyone is sitting, that sort of thing. The church is a community, so people don't get excluded. They could be a member of that parish, a Catholic from another parish, an atheist, a Hindu, a Satanist - anyone. We want you there so long as you don't make a distracting commotion.
People have assumed that this is a Mass, but there is also such a thing as a Liturgy of the Word wedding that is not a Mass. This is often the ceremony if one member of the marriage is not Catholic because it can be awkward for only one of the couple to receive the Eucharist, like in this case where one is agnostic/atheist. But, the same rule of non-exclusion applies. Mom gets to show up so long as she doesn't make a ruckus. (your internal agitation at your mother's presence is not a ruckus)
Crashing the reception, on the other hand, is absolutely not acceptable. But, your update says she absolutely will not crash the reception.
It's a public ceremony in a public place and it's not your wedding. Leave it alone.
posted by Tanizaki at 8:42 AM on August 7, 2013 [14 favorites]
I think the issue here is less about whether the canons allow someone to attend a ceremony than the social etiquette involved. Just because she won't have to go to confession after coming to the wedding doesn't mean that it is a good idea for her to go. I myself wish our culture were more like a tight-knit ethnic neighborhood where our social bonds were such that we all attended each other's wedding ceremonies and our churches were all close by, but that is not the world we live in.
Which reminds me of this conversation I had with someone a long time ago about a wedding a bunch of us at church had an open invite to for the ceremony on July 5th:
M: Did you go to X and Y's wedding last week?
Me: No. I wanted to, but I totally overslept after being up late July 4th.
M: The wedding was at 2 o'clock!
posted by deanc at 8:57 AM on August 7, 2013
Which reminds me of this conversation I had with someone a long time ago about a wedding a bunch of us at church had an open invite to for the ceremony on July 5th:
M: Did you go to X and Y's wedding last week?
Me: No. I wanted to, but I totally overslept after being up late July 4th.
M: The wedding was at 2 o'clock!
posted by deanc at 8:57 AM on August 7, 2013
It would be a mitzvah to take her with you to the ceremony (and I say that as a secular sort-of-raised-Christian). Good karma, filial duty, whatever. How many things did she miss out on/take you along to reluctantly when you were a kid and she couldn't find a sitter?
Think how happy it would make her.
posted by amaire at 8:59 AM on August 7, 2013 [10 favorites]
Think how happy it would make her.
posted by amaire at 8:59 AM on August 7, 2013 [10 favorites]
The "very catholic" groom is likely to understand that this ceremony is open to all, which would lessen any likelihood that your mother's attendance at the ceremony would be perceived as inappropriate.
This isn't going to hurt anyone, is allowed by the laws of the Catholic church, and probably won't upset or offend the couple, so I'd suggest you take her with you to the ceremony.
posted by Area Man at 9:05 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
This isn't going to hurt anyone, is allowed by the laws of the Catholic church, and probably won't upset or offend the couple, so I'd suggest you take her with you to the ceremony.
posted by Area Man at 9:05 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
What is your reasoning for not wanting her to go to the wedding with you? That would clarify a lot of stuff. Is it just that you're looking forward to it and being responsible for her will be stressful and cramp your style? Or that she tends to act all goofy and intrusive in public and you will feel awkward? If those are the cases and you're absolutely dead certain that she won't be able to go to the reception, I'd say that you might want to consider going with her. (I don't know how old you are, but as I've aged I've become much less worried about my parents' behavior (which is sometimes a little eccentric) in public, because I've realized that all anyone ever thinks is "oh, how sweet, Frowner is taking her parents to the [event] and they sure are characters, aren't they?"
Is it that she'll make remarks or behave in ways that are actively bad? (Ie, say something racist, homophobic, etc?) Or is there some other lurking issue (alcoholism, refusal to acknowledge her own physical frailty due to health concerns, etc)?
I'd say that if interacting with her is so stressful to you that you legitimately can't handle bringing her into your friendship circle for a wedding, it is best not to have friend events at her house. I know what it's like to be perpetually trying to square the circle in terms of family relationships - dealing with each social issue as it comes up, always hoping that chance and luck will mean that you can avoid the bad ones - but I really think that if the issue is "my mother is very nosy/intrusive/mildly-socially-inappropriate and it is very hard to be in public with her" or "my mother cannot know about my sexuality/drinking/etc because she would pitch a giant fit so being in public with her is a constant dance of evasion and no fun at all", then you should re-evaluate your relations with her, starting with the wedding but carrying through to things like events at her house.
posted by Frowner at 9:05 AM on August 7, 2013 [5 favorites]
Is it that she'll make remarks or behave in ways that are actively bad? (Ie, say something racist, homophobic, etc?) Or is there some other lurking issue (alcoholism, refusal to acknowledge her own physical frailty due to health concerns, etc)?
I'd say that if interacting with her is so stressful to you that you legitimately can't handle bringing her into your friendship circle for a wedding, it is best not to have friend events at her house. I know what it's like to be perpetually trying to square the circle in terms of family relationships - dealing with each social issue as it comes up, always hoping that chance and luck will mean that you can avoid the bad ones - but I really think that if the issue is "my mother is very nosy/intrusive/mildly-socially-inappropriate and it is very hard to be in public with her" or "my mother cannot know about my sexuality/drinking/etc because she would pitch a giant fit so being in public with her is a constant dance of evasion and no fun at all", then you should re-evaluate your relations with her, starting with the wedding but carrying through to things like events at her house.
posted by Frowner at 9:05 AM on August 7, 2013 [5 favorites]
Sounds like there's pretty decidedly no absolute or unbendable rule (either ettiquette or church-based) against her going to the church service... that means you can't hide behind "these are the rules" when you explain to MotherR that neither the couple nor you are inviting her so she shouldn't go.
On the other hand, if you know she's not going to be at the reception, there's not a huge reason to be uncomfortable bringing her as your guest to the service. It's not like she's going to take the opportunity to schmooze all around, tell stories about the time you mooned the priest at age 5, insist on exchanging phone numbers with your buddies, and ask what's the drunkest they've ever seen you.... is it??? If it is, then yes, put your foot down, and explain that she's pretty thoroughly not invited.
But if it's not, if she's just a getting-older lady who likes going to weddings and would be happy to see your friends again, then just grin and bear it, and bring her along. In fact, my mother-in-law now sends Christmas cards to some of my friends, because of a similar involvement-of-convenience in a dinner, and while I kind of roll my eyes, my friends seem to think it's sweet, so I try to lower my sense of everybody-must-be-judging-me and let her have a good time, because honestly she *is* sweet even if I don't generally want to think of her and my friends in the same room.
(She's kid-sitting for your sister during the reception... are your sister's kids going to be at the church? If so, having MotherR there to take them away with her might actually be convenient.)
posted by aimedwander at 10:20 AM on August 7, 2013 [5 favorites]
On the other hand, if you know she's not going to be at the reception, there's not a huge reason to be uncomfortable bringing her as your guest to the service. It's not like she's going to take the opportunity to schmooze all around, tell stories about the time you mooned the priest at age 5, insist on exchanging phone numbers with your buddies, and ask what's the drunkest they've ever seen you.... is it??? If it is, then yes, put your foot down, and explain that she's pretty thoroughly not invited.
But if it's not, if she's just a getting-older lady who likes going to weddings and would be happy to see your friends again, then just grin and bear it, and bring her along. In fact, my mother-in-law now sends Christmas cards to some of my friends, because of a similar involvement-of-convenience in a dinner, and while I kind of roll my eyes, my friends seem to think it's sweet, so I try to lower my sense of everybody-must-be-judging-me and let her have a good time, because honestly she *is* sweet even if I don't generally want to think of her and my friends in the same room.
(She's kid-sitting for your sister during the reception... are your sister's kids going to be at the church? If so, having MotherR there to take them away with her might actually be convenient.)
posted by aimedwander at 10:20 AM on August 7, 2013 [5 favorites]
Fast forward to last Christmas, when it was my turn to host the group's semi-annual dinner. The group has grown a bit with spouses and kids, and my place is a bit too small for that kind of gettogether, so I borrowed Mother Renault's house for the evening. The dinner went well, and Mother Renault was a part of that dinner. She loves being hostess, and dove right into the whole thing, even though that was not my intention at all (I was just borrowing her house). At the end of the evening, once everyone had left, she made a comment about her having a new group of friends.
Not to be proprietary or anything, but still wanting to keep a separation of worlds thing going, particularly with a bunch of people who know a lot of stories about you in your youth, Sister Renault and I shut that down pretty quick. Or so we thought.
Everyone else has addressed the peculiarities of the church service better than I have, but I think these paragraphs point to a larger underlying problem.
Speaking as someone with a borderline mother with boundaries issues, who is all about being firm with reasonable limits in order to maintain a healthy relationship, I think your expectations of maintaining separate worlds as adults--as you're using your mother for favors like childcare and borrowing her house for parties--is unfair, particularly assuming a normal and reasonably healthy relationship. Your mom is a grown-up, you are grown-ups--to the point where you're beginning to reproduce yourselves!--and your friends are grown-ups too. Expecting to use someone's home for a party but have no presence at that party is pretty unfair, unless you're a teenager who is newly setting down boundaries and asserting an adult identity with no home of your home.
If your fear is that your friends are going to, say, bring up anecdotes about you snorting coke in the back of a bar, maybe new friends? I've interacted with plenty of my friends' parents, and no one had a problem with outing any youthful indiscretions. People understand reasonable decorum in cross-generational spaces, in my experience.
As you get older, your relationship with your parents will and should change--they'll always be your parents but they're now also other grown-ups, peers. Assuming you like your mom and have a good relationship with her, I think it's okay to bring her a bit into social spaces. But this goes double if you're using her for event hosting or childcare without compensation.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:39 AM on August 7, 2013 [14 favorites]
Not to be proprietary or anything, but still wanting to keep a separation of worlds thing going, particularly with a bunch of people who know a lot of stories about you in your youth, Sister Renault and I shut that down pretty quick. Or so we thought.
Everyone else has addressed the peculiarities of the church service better than I have, but I think these paragraphs point to a larger underlying problem.
Speaking as someone with a borderline mother with boundaries issues, who is all about being firm with reasonable limits in order to maintain a healthy relationship, I think your expectations of maintaining separate worlds as adults--as you're using your mother for favors like childcare and borrowing her house for parties--is unfair, particularly assuming a normal and reasonably healthy relationship. Your mom is a grown-up, you are grown-ups--to the point where you're beginning to reproduce yourselves!--and your friends are grown-ups too. Expecting to use someone's home for a party but have no presence at that party is pretty unfair, unless you're a teenager who is newly setting down boundaries and asserting an adult identity with no home of your home.
If your fear is that your friends are going to, say, bring up anecdotes about you snorting coke in the back of a bar, maybe new friends? I've interacted with plenty of my friends' parents, and no one had a problem with outing any youthful indiscretions. People understand reasonable decorum in cross-generational spaces, in my experience.
As you get older, your relationship with your parents will and should change--they'll always be your parents but they're now also other grown-ups, peers. Assuming you like your mom and have a good relationship with her, I think it's okay to bring her a bit into social spaces. But this goes double if you're using her for event hosting or childcare without compensation.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:39 AM on August 7, 2013 [14 favorites]
I had people "crash" my wedding ceremony and thought it was no big deal. I had people "crash" my wedding reception and was not so happy about that. However, for mom of a close friend -- I had that exact same situation come up, and my friend asked me if it was ok for her mom to come to the service and I said I would love for her mom to come to the service, and she did.
In other words, you could consider asking the groom. In the end, it's really only his opinion and the bride's that matter, if you ask me.
As for normal, I would say it's pretty normal and not at all strange for uninvited folks to show up at a Catholic wedding mass. It sounds more like, at this point, you want an excuse to not have her come. I can't help you there!
posted by freezer cake at 10:43 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
In other words, you could consider asking the groom. In the end, it's really only his opinion and the bride's that matter, if you ask me.
As for normal, I would say it's pretty normal and not at all strange for uninvited folks to show up at a Catholic wedding mass. It sounds more like, at this point, you want an excuse to not have her come. I can't help you there!
posted by freezer cake at 10:43 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I would warn the groom. You might not be able to stop her. If the groom seems put off by it, take on the responsibility of gently letting your mom know this so she can check herself.
I feel kind of badly for your mom, though. I mean, I get it, but...yeah. Humans do get kinda nutty once the filters start to wear off and our hearts have been through a lot of life. And I would absolutely be wary about crossing the streams to the degree that she's interested in (new circle of friends?!). But this probably seemed like such a good and happy idea to her, and, whew, I don't envy you in the slightest.
Good luck.
posted by batmonkey at 10:48 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
I feel kind of badly for your mom, though. I mean, I get it, but...yeah. Humans do get kinda nutty once the filters start to wear off and our hearts have been through a lot of life. And I would absolutely be wary about crossing the streams to the degree that she's interested in (new circle of friends?!). But this probably seemed like such a good and happy idea to her, and, whew, I don't envy you in the slightest.
Good luck.
posted by batmonkey at 10:48 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I bet she will be welcomed by the church and by the groom as a "happy surprise" but I bet it will be secretly really awkward for the marrying couple because it will be clear that she was not invited and wanted to be. It will make them feel bad for excluding her.
Also it might make them worry that she will also be inviting herself to the reception, and if they haven't planned for extras that will be very stressful.
So I'd try to politely talk her out of it even if it isn't a religious no-no or super high on the social faux pas list, it is still not cool in my book.
(Jewish east coast just married person here if it matters)
posted by rmless at 11:17 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Also it might make them worry that she will also be inviting herself to the reception, and if they haven't planned for extras that will be very stressful.
So I'd try to politely talk her out of it even if it isn't a religious no-no or super high on the social faux pas list, it is still not cool in my book.
(Jewish east coast just married person here if it matters)
posted by rmless at 11:17 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Catholic east coast person whose parents have come to the Catholic Church ceremonies for several of my friends' weddings (for some of which I've been in the wedding party, for some I've only been a guest). Unless she will be disruptive or the wedding is particularly small, I don't see what the big deal is.
My parents have attended (i) the wedding ceremonies for some of my childhood friends, which were in the church my parents still attend, but also (ii) the wedding ceremonies for two of my friends from grad school/adulthood, in churches nearby. In both types of situations, they attended because they known one or both of the people getting married (my friends) and are happy for them. For my childhood friends' weddings, there are usually several parents of friends who are doing the same thing, and they often all sit together in the back of the church, dressed in more casual clothing than if they were attending the reception. No one was surprised or offended by it.
posted by Bailey270 at 11:27 AM on August 7, 2013 [4 favorites]
My parents have attended (i) the wedding ceremonies for some of my childhood friends, which were in the church my parents still attend, but also (ii) the wedding ceremonies for two of my friends from grad school/adulthood, in churches nearby. In both types of situations, they attended because they known one or both of the people getting married (my friends) and are happy for them. For my childhood friends' weddings, there are usually several parents of friends who are doing the same thing, and they often all sit together in the back of the church, dressed in more casual clothing than if they were attending the reception. No one was surprised or offended by it.
posted by Bailey270 at 11:27 AM on August 7, 2013 [4 favorites]
I think whether or not they notice and it's awkward for the bride and groom will really depend on the size of the wedding. My wedding had about 80 guests. Before the wedding I was in the back pacing and trying not to throw up. After the wedding, I immediately got into the limo. I didn't notice or talk to anyone outside the wedding party until the reception. You could have slipped ten extra, uninvited guests in the back and I wouldn't have had a clue they were there.
At a smaller wedding, it might be awkward, but at a lot of weddings, they aren't even going to know.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:30 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
At a smaller wedding, it might be awkward, but at a lot of weddings, they aren't even going to know.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:30 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Please remember that you can not control what your mother is going to do.
She is an adult and will decide her own actions. You can tell her what you want and what you think is right, but it is her choice and her decision. You can feel what you want to feel about it.
While she is your mother, her decision will ultimately reflect on her, not on you. You are your own person, not an extension of your mother.
posted by jazh at 11:43 AM on August 7, 2013
She is an adult and will decide her own actions. You can tell her what you want and what you think is right, but it is her choice and her decision. You can feel what you want to feel about it.
While she is your mother, her decision will ultimately reflect on her, not on you. You are your own person, not an extension of your mother.
posted by jazh at 11:43 AM on August 7, 2013
Yes, I think church weddings are pretty much open to all, especially other members of the church.
I've photographed a lot of church weddings of various flavors of Christianity, and most of them had at least a few people who just popped in for the ceremony.
My boyfriend's parents told me this is really common practice in their (Lutheran) church.
posted by inertia at 12:08 PM on August 7, 2013
I've photographed a lot of church weddings of various flavors of Christianity, and most of them had at least a few people who just popped in for the ceremony.
My boyfriend's parents told me this is really common practice in their (Lutheran) church.
posted by inertia at 12:08 PM on August 7, 2013
Most of my wedding going experience has been in Britain (Scotland and England). I know people who went to the church service although they were not invited to "the wedding". It was perfectly fine and the wedding couple seemed pleased that people would come to celebrate with them regardless of being invited to the reception. The first time I saw this my gut said "whaaat?" But when I think about it I think it's actually kinda sweet and nice.
Note these were church weddings. I think it would totally be different if it was a civil ceremony in a non church venue.
posted by like_neon at 12:13 PM on August 7, 2013
Note these were church weddings. I think it would totally be different if it was a civil ceremony in a non church venue.
posted by like_neon at 12:13 PM on August 7, 2013
In my world, it's completely normal to go to a church service wedding of even a vague acquaintance. There is no such thing as an invitation for the service because it is assumed to be open. That's why weddings are often announced in the paper. It is common to have people who wish you well (neighbours, colleagues, members of the church who might not even know you) show up for the service. We had maybe 20 such people show up to our wedding service.
The reception, on the other hand, hell no.
posted by lollusc at 12:43 PM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
The reception, on the other hand, hell no.
posted by lollusc at 12:43 PM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
If your invitation specified room for one guest, and you don't have plans to take someone else, why not bring your Mom as the guest? Then your mom isn't 'inviting herself' weirdly to their wedding. I mean, she did it to YOU, but not to the couple - from their standpoint, the guest list has in no way expanded beyond what they were planning on. The bride and groom don't typically police the "plus one" list except in unusual circumstances (i.e. I guess they could try to specifically exclude someone who was a huge problem person and who might be brought as a plus one, but that does not seem to be the case here). If they wanted to do the "don't give single people a plus one" to keep down costs, they had that option (and I know many people who do that). Since your mom is not planning to attend the reception regardless, cost shouldn't be an issue in any case. From the bride and groom's standpoint, she would NOT be crashing or showing up in some surprising way; she would simply be a plus one.
That whole thing is separate from the issue of your mom mingling with your friend's group in a way that makes you feel uncomfortable. I think this is something you should have a separate conversation about, distinct from the wedding issue, if you really feel you need to. However, keep in mind that you can't 100% control other people - if Mom independently hangs out with one of your friends or if they invite her to a group event, it's not your place to shut that down. I think the most you can do is to immediately stop inviting friends around your Mom's place if you don't want them to be friendly.
posted by rainbowbrite at 2:30 PM on August 7, 2013
That whole thing is separate from the issue of your mom mingling with your friend's group in a way that makes you feel uncomfortable. I think this is something you should have a separate conversation about, distinct from the wedding issue, if you really feel you need to. However, keep in mind that you can't 100% control other people - if Mom independently hangs out with one of your friends or if they invite her to a group event, it's not your place to shut that down. I think the most you can do is to immediately stop inviting friends around your Mom's place if you don't want them to be friendly.
posted by rainbowbrite at 2:30 PM on August 7, 2013
Sounds like your mom is bored and lonely - if she wouldn't be disruptive at the service, I would ask the bride and groom if they mind her being there. If they are ok with it, and you can make it very clear to her that it's just for the service, and not the reception, it would be a kindness to take her along.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 5:48 PM on August 7, 2013
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 5:48 PM on August 7, 2013
Response by poster: Thanks everyone. I really wanted to know if self-inviting to the church service was allowable, and the consensus is that it is. That said, I will not actively encourage her to attend.
Without getting into particulars, I spend a lot of time with my mother -- A LOT-- and this one circle of friends is the one area of my social life which remains independent of her, and absent her direct involvement. I would like to keep it that way. I love my mother and spend much of my free time with her and doing things for her, but I need some area of my life without her direct involvement. I see nothing wrong with that -- quite the contrary, actually, that some boundaries are in fact healthy.
Regarding the Christmas gathering, it wasn't my idea to have it at her place. I wanted it at mine. She brought up the idea of doing it at her house instead, and I went along with it, simply to be nice, and saying yes was easier than saying no and hearing about it for the next twenty years. She was to have been babysitting and away from the dinner, but then she self-invited herself to the dinner. As a one-time thing, I didn't mind. When this wedding came up, and she self-invited herself into this last area of independence again, welll, that suggests a long-term insertion which I am not willing to accept. But -- that's a whole different problem...
Regardless, thanks for your contributions, everyone.
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:52 PM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
Without getting into particulars, I spend a lot of time with my mother -- A LOT-- and this one circle of friends is the one area of my social life which remains independent of her, and absent her direct involvement. I would like to keep it that way. I love my mother and spend much of my free time with her and doing things for her, but I need some area of my life without her direct involvement. I see nothing wrong with that -- quite the contrary, actually, that some boundaries are in fact healthy.
Regarding the Christmas gathering, it wasn't my idea to have it at her place. I wanted it at mine. She brought up the idea of doing it at her house instead, and I went along with it, simply to be nice, and saying yes was easier than saying no and hearing about it for the next twenty years. She was to have been babysitting and away from the dinner, but then she self-invited herself to the dinner. As a one-time thing, I didn't mind. When this wedding came up, and she self-invited herself into this last area of independence again, welll, that suggests a long-term insertion which I am not willing to accept. But -- that's a whole different problem...
Regardless, thanks for your contributions, everyone.
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:52 PM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
Keep your boundaries. Especially if you only have this one
posted by gt2 at 7:46 PM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by gt2 at 7:46 PM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
My parents have certainly gone to the services of friends of mine when they've gotten married. Of course they also know and are friends with the parents of the people who are getting married so I think they would have had an informal invite to the service anyways. The wedding service is just an excuse to see people that they might not have seen recently (except at the grocery store or whatever) and have a chat and get to see the kids they've seen grow up over the years get hitched in nice clothes and get some nice pictures. Of course I come from a small town with 15k people living in it so my parents (a retired teacher and an insurance salseman) tend to slightly know nearly everyone and are selective and only attend the services where they really have a connection to either the parents of the people getting married or the people getting married themselves.
posted by koolkat at 3:41 AM on August 8, 2013
posted by koolkat at 3:41 AM on August 8, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 7:57 AM on August 7, 2013 [5 favorites]