How do I say "no" to Landmark (and get them to drop it)?
July 10, 2013 9:03 AM Subscribe
I had a meeting yesterday about a very exciting business opportunity. The woman I met with is part of my social/business circle, and I know that she has recently become very involved with Landmark, and has pressured all of her friends and associates to join, as is the Landmark custom. During the meeting she suggested that I come to an introductory event. I told her that I had some familiarity with it and was not interested, but of course, she tried to talk me into it. I changed the subject and she dropped it, for now. Based on past experience, it will come up again and again and again because that's what Landmark teaches its proponents to do.
I have dealt with this before, looked into it, and I am absolutely certain that I want NOTHING to do with Landmark, or any other similar organizations. I am choosing my words carefully here, since I do want to respect others who have found it helpful, but in truth I have a very dim view of this type of thing and have lost more than one friend to Landmark, The Forum, EST, Scientology, etc.
I want to work with this woman – it could be important to my career, but I hate it when people won't take "no" for an answer, and that is what will probably happen.
My question is other than repeatedly saying no, something I have no problem doing, is there a way of dealing with the Landmark mindset to get her to stop asking? I am aware that this may not be possible, and that it may be a deal-breaker for me in working with this person.
Note: I will NEVER do Landmark, and my question is not "should I do Landmark?" So, Landmark advocates, please don't derail this question in that direction.
I have dealt with this before, looked into it, and I am absolutely certain that I want NOTHING to do with Landmark, or any other similar organizations. I am choosing my words carefully here, since I do want to respect others who have found it helpful, but in truth I have a very dim view of this type of thing and have lost more than one friend to Landmark, The Forum, EST, Scientology, etc.
I want to work with this woman – it could be important to my career, but I hate it when people won't take "no" for an answer, and that is what will probably happen.
My question is other than repeatedly saying no, something I have no problem doing, is there a way of dealing with the Landmark mindset to get her to stop asking? I am aware that this may not be possible, and that it may be a deal-breaker for me in working with this person.
Note: I will NEVER do Landmark, and my question is not "should I do Landmark?" So, Landmark advocates, please don't derail this question in that direction.
Tell her no and ask her to stop asking. I have limited knowledge of Landmark but I think part of it is about make clear requests and my friend who did this to me seemed to respond well to a direct request to shut up about it.
posted by needs more cowbell at 9:10 AM on July 10, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by needs more cowbell at 9:10 AM on July 10, 2013 [5 favorites]
"I told you no. That is not an invitation to debate".
posted by thelonius at 9:13 AM on July 10, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 9:13 AM on July 10, 2013 [5 favorites]
My favorite pearl of Ask wisdom: sincere smile + "I'm sorry, that just won't be possible." Say that enough times in a similar tone of voice and the cool, unassailable professionalism of the rejection will almost certainly sink in.
And it might be too late for this, but you could always tell a little white lie: "I've been to an event/read some materials/tried it with a friend and it just wasn't for me. But I'm glad you get so much out of it!"
posted by sevensnowflakes at 9:17 AM on July 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
And it might be too late for this, but you could always tell a little white lie: "I've been to an event/read some materials/tried it with a friend and it just wasn't for me. But I'm glad you get so much out of it!"
posted by sevensnowflakes at 9:17 AM on July 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
I worked for a company where the ownership was drinking a lot of Landmark Kool-Aid, so much so that they even paid for employees to go to the Forum seminar to try to get us into Landmark. I went to one day of the Forum and then bailed. You are smart to avoid it from the outset.
Landmark devotees come off like really hard core religious proselytizers, and I think the only thing that wards them off permanently is avoiding them. Since that's not advisable from a career perspective for you, I would just continue to say that you are not interested every time she brings it up, and she WILL bring it up, over and over again.
posted by crankylex at 9:22 AM on July 10, 2013
Landmark devotees come off like really hard core religious proselytizers, and I think the only thing that wards them off permanently is avoiding them. Since that's not advisable from a career perspective for you, I would just continue to say that you are not interested every time she brings it up, and she WILL bring it up, over and over again.
posted by crankylex at 9:22 AM on July 10, 2013
"I don't want to appear rude, but I don't have any interest in this and would rather not debate it now or in the future."
posted by MuffinMan at 9:28 AM on July 10, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by MuffinMan at 9:28 AM on July 10, 2013 [5 favorites]
Best answer: And it might be too late for this, but you could always tell a little white lie: "I've been to an event/read some materials/tried it with a friend and it just wasn't for me. But I'm glad you get so much out of it!"
Nah, this is actually an in for this type of asshole. They read it as you being amenable to the thing, and therefore capable of being convinced to try it again.
In my experience, if you're going to keep interacting with this person, you have to just treat this as a repetitive task like washing the dishes. If washing the dishes were a task that weighed on us cumulatively, no one would live past thirty. It doesn't, though, because you learn to think of it as something that you just do like new every day. Same deal here. Keep it curt and straightforward. You can even just memorize the words you say to minimize the mental effort involved in saying no as much as possible.
There's no sure-fire way to discourage her from asking, though, because Landmark really conditions you to believe that what you're giving someone by inviting them to Landmark far outweighs the inconvenience they experience from you asking repeatedly.
posted by invitapriore at 9:33 AM on July 10, 2013 [13 favorites]
Nah, this is actually an in for this type of asshole. They read it as you being amenable to the thing, and therefore capable of being convinced to try it again.
In my experience, if you're going to keep interacting with this person, you have to just treat this as a repetitive task like washing the dishes. If washing the dishes were a task that weighed on us cumulatively, no one would live past thirty. It doesn't, though, because you learn to think of it as something that you just do like new every day. Same deal here. Keep it curt and straightforward. You can even just memorize the words you say to minimize the mental effort involved in saying no as much as possible.
There's no sure-fire way to discourage her from asking, though, because Landmark really conditions you to believe that what you're giving someone by inviting them to Landmark far outweighs the inconvenience they experience from you asking repeatedly.
posted by invitapriore at 9:33 AM on July 10, 2013 [13 favorites]
Best answer: Tell her no and ask her to stop asking. I have limited knowledge of Landmark but I think part of it is about make clear requests and my friend who did this to me seemed to respond well to a direct request to shut up about it.
This is actually a good point. If I remember right, they're also big on "you are your word" or something roughly like that, so it actually might be effective to reuse their own buzzwords on your acquaintance here, e.g., "can I give you my word on something? I do not, and will not, ever attend a Landmark seminar. I promise you that. Now, moving on..."
posted by invitapriore at 9:38 AM on July 10, 2013 [6 favorites]
This is actually a good point. If I remember right, they're also big on "you are your word" or something roughly like that, so it actually might be effective to reuse their own buzzwords on your acquaintance here, e.g., "can I give you my word on something? I do not, and will not, ever attend a Landmark seminar. I promise you that. Now, moving on..."
posted by invitapriore at 9:38 AM on July 10, 2013 [6 favorites]
I know a bunch of Landmark folks, and I agree that one good thing about that program is that it seems to teach them to respond well to directness.
"I know I'm not interested in Landmark, and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop asking" should get the job done.
posted by ottereroticist at 9:38 AM on July 10, 2013 [4 favorites]
"I know I'm not interested in Landmark, and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop asking" should get the job done.
posted by ottereroticist at 9:38 AM on July 10, 2013 [4 favorites]
I did Landmark (a while back), and while I found it interesting, the whole "selling" aspect was pretty awful. That being said i think @ottereroticist has it right. Another variant "I appreciate the invitation, but I'm not interested. I know you are encouraged to ask, but my mind is made up."
posted by pyro979 at 9:48 AM on July 10, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by pyro979 at 9:48 AM on July 10, 2013 [4 favorites]
If you're married, you can try what I've always thought would be an excellent way to shoot down an invitation to attend an MLM event: "I'm sorry, my spouse and I included a section in our wedding vows wherein we agreed that if either of us ever became involved with a/n [MLM/LGAT], we'd be required to immediately divorce. I don't want to have to divorce. Do YOU want me to have to divorce?..."
posted by julthumbscrew at 9:50 AM on July 10, 2013
posted by julthumbscrew at 9:50 AM on July 10, 2013
If it goes on too long, I would disengage every time she brings up the subject. "Let's talk about something else, or I'll be on my way, all right?"
posted by xingcat at 9:58 AM on July 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by xingcat at 9:58 AM on July 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
Agreeing with the others who suggest a polite but firm, unambiguous "no". I have done a couple of their programs and got lots of value from them, but I absolutely agree that the hard-selling/recruiting thing is by far the worst part of the enterprise. It taints the experience and, while I bet that they sincerely believe the world would be a better place if more people went to their courses, it is a huge conflict of interest that Landmark stands to benefit financially from their students' recruitment efforts.
Thank them for the offer and be firm in declining it—their programs are not for everyone and you shouldn't feel professional pressure to attend. The best advertising for their classes, IMO, is someone who took the Forum or another class and got so much out of it that the way they live life is inspirational/powerful enough that others ask them, unsolicited, what their 'secret' is. That is a different conversation than the "bring 5 people to our next meeting, or else you aren't really getting what this course is about" mentality.
posted by andromache at 10:05 AM on July 10, 2013 [3 favorites]
Thank them for the offer and be firm in declining it—their programs are not for everyone and you shouldn't feel professional pressure to attend. The best advertising for their classes, IMO, is someone who took the Forum or another class and got so much out of it that the way they live life is inspirational/powerful enough that others ask them, unsolicited, what their 'secret' is. That is a different conversation than the "bring 5 people to our next meeting, or else you aren't really getting what this course is about" mentality.
posted by andromache at 10:05 AM on July 10, 2013 [3 favorites]
As a couple of people have suggested, in my experience the trick is making clear that you are saying "no" in the future tense as well as the present. You can do it politely. It's just about including those few extra words that prevent the listener from interpreting what you're saying as, "Not right now."
posted by cribcage at 10:08 AM on July 10, 2013
posted by cribcage at 10:08 AM on July 10, 2013
Can I ask "What do you mean by 'Landmark'?" It's a difficult term to google and I've never heard it in this context.
posted by jozxyqk at 10:51 AM on July 10, 2013
posted by jozxyqk at 10:51 AM on July 10, 2013
Totally Nthing the idea that Landmark people respond very well to directness. So, say what you mean: "No thanks, I'm not interested." Worked for me just fine.
posted by BlahLaLa at 10:59 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by BlahLaLa at 10:59 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Beware of these two potential verbal traps:
"I'm sorry, but..."
"Thank you, but..."
In my experience, any expression of politesse is taken as a chink in the armor. It's much harder for these types to argue with an all-caps, no exclamation mark
NO.
Don't dress it up with nicey-nice.
posted by BostonTerrier at 11:15 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
"I'm sorry, but..."
"Thank you, but..."
In my experience, any expression of politesse is taken as a chink in the armor. It's much harder for these types to argue with an all-caps, no exclamation mark
NO.
Don't dress it up with nicey-nice.
posted by BostonTerrier at 11:15 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
As I recall, the fact that I was in therapy was enough to get the Landmark nags off my case back in the day.
Same for me. I was invited to a different group, which is an offshoot from Landmark. I said I consulted it with my therapist and she recommended I shouldn't attend.
The registration form also says that if you have become or might become ill or distressed because of lack of sleep, or have sleep disorders, it is strongly recommended that you do not participate in the program (page 5), so there's another excuse in case you don't want to say you are in therapy.
posted by clearlydemon at 2:13 PM on July 10, 2013
Same for me. I was invited to a different group, which is an offshoot from Landmark. I said I consulted it with my therapist and she recommended I shouldn't attend.
The registration form also says that if you have become or might become ill or distressed because of lack of sleep, or have sleep disorders, it is strongly recommended that you do not participate in the program (page 5), so there's another excuse in case you don't want to say you are in therapy.
posted by clearlydemon at 2:13 PM on July 10, 2013
"no, i am not interested in Landmark and i'd appreciate it if you'd stop bringing it up. what i am interested in is our business venture..."
personally, i think it would be wise to think long and hard if you want to get involved in a business opportunity with someone involved with this group. i know i wouldn't do it.
posted by wildflower at 3:14 PM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
personally, i think it would be wise to think long and hard if you want to get involved in a business opportunity with someone involved with this group. i know i wouldn't do it.
posted by wildflower at 3:14 PM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
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If she brings it up again, say, "No, thank you" in exactly the same way you've said it before. I'd have something handy to change the subject again, "No, thank you, oh, you mentioned some test dates for the project, let's check our schedules to come up with some prospective times."
Stay cordial, upbeat and pleasant. It may never go away, but it shouldn't turn into a dealbreaker.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 9:09 AM on July 10, 2013 [7 favorites]