Smalltown or BigCity?
April 7, 2013 6:02 PM
My family needs to decide between living in Smalltown and BigCity. Have you made this decision and how did you make it? Are you happy in retrospect?
We've lived in both cities (currently residing in Smalltown). Smalltown is in a geographically not too appealing area, but has a top ranked University (where one of us is employed) and accompanying charms, such as big fun events, interesting/smart people and decent food. BigCity is in a geographically beautiful area, has an even better university and even smarter/more interesting people, and very very good food.
Obvious downside of moving would be - houses in BigCity are 30-50% more expensive than in Smalltown. We're not home owners yet but would like to buy (and probably could in both places, although would get much less for our money in BigCity). Considering all other financial aspects (schools, etc) we could make it work in BigCity, but it wouldn't be as relaxed and easy as in Smalltown.
Also, things we like are hanging out with other families with kids, going on walks through the neighborhood, eating/cooking, going on easy hikes & picnics, but all very low-stress, low-key. We're not kitesurfing kickstarter-campaign super-driven people, but also not church-picnic mom-jeans mall type people. One of us is a stay at home parent (although that may change) and that seems an almost non-existent lifestyle in BigCity.
On the other hand, BigCity University would definitely be a step up, career-wise. And BigCity would never get boring and maybe, once a day or week or month we'd sigh and look around and say, 'Wow, I can't believe I live here!!!'
We feel a bit lost in our decision making process right now. Maybe because we know - and like - both places! Ideas?
We've lived in both cities (currently residing in Smalltown). Smalltown is in a geographically not too appealing area, but has a top ranked University (where one of us is employed) and accompanying charms, such as big fun events, interesting/smart people and decent food. BigCity is in a geographically beautiful area, has an even better university and even smarter/more interesting people, and very very good food.
Obvious downside of moving would be - houses in BigCity are 30-50% more expensive than in Smalltown. We're not home owners yet but would like to buy (and probably could in both places, although would get much less for our money in BigCity). Considering all other financial aspects (schools, etc) we could make it work in BigCity, but it wouldn't be as relaxed and easy as in Smalltown.
Also, things we like are hanging out with other families with kids, going on walks through the neighborhood, eating/cooking, going on easy hikes & picnics, but all very low-stress, low-key. We're not kitesurfing kickstarter-campaign super-driven people, but also not church-picnic mom-jeans mall type people. One of us is a stay at home parent (although that may change) and that seems an almost non-existent lifestyle in BigCity.
On the other hand, BigCity University would definitely be a step up, career-wise. And BigCity would never get boring and maybe, once a day or week or month we'd sigh and look around and say, 'Wow, I can't believe I live here!!!'
We feel a bit lost in our decision making process right now. Maybe because we know - and like - both places! Ideas?
Here is some related information that will not answer your question but provides an overview:
Pew social research
The Atlantic--The Great Urban-Rural Happiness Debate.
I am fortunate to have the option to live in either--and I do. very simply--I am consistently more content in a small town and have greater highs and lows in a big city. I know this varies tremendously by individual but I do think/believe that being content and happy in a big city is more dependent on having discretionary income than in a small town.
posted by rmhsinc at 6:25 PM on April 7, 2013
Pew social research
The Atlantic--The Great Urban-Rural Happiness Debate.
I am fortunate to have the option to live in either--and I do. very simply--I am consistently more content in a small town and have greater highs and lows in a big city. I know this varies tremendously by individual but I do think/believe that being content and happy in a big city is more dependent on having discretionary income than in a small town.
posted by rmhsinc at 6:25 PM on April 7, 2013
How old are your kids? This is highly relevant.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:25 PM on April 7, 2013
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:25 PM on April 7, 2013
I grew up in a small town in New England. Moved to a big city in the Pac NW right after college. Moved back about ten years later to a different small town (4000 people) and I'm really pleased here. Things that matter to me
- Knowing my neighbors and feeling like I kind of get the place, the whole place, where I read the paper and know who they're talking about and care about what is going on
- Being able to walk to basic things (post office, restaurant, supermarket, bank) even if I have to drive to get to less-basic things (comedy club, ethnic food, something to do at night, other friends)
- Everyone sort of accepts you how you are. Obviously YMMV here but I have a lot of friends with kids and friends without kids and friends in non-traditional relationships and people are basically just chill about it. There's no norm really. When I was in the city I felt like I was jockeying for position in my smaller subgroup and there was a lot of "Oh THIS is the good coffee shop and that coffee shop SUCKS" sort of thing and I found it exhausting. Good for other people, not good for me.
I had good friends who made a big move from Seattle (where I was) to Brooklyn when they were about four months pregnant. People were sort of like "Whaaaa?" But they explained it like this "We have a job offer, it's a better job. We are the sort of people who like where we are and we're sure that we'll like it there" and they did. For me, I can be satisfied most places as long as I feel like I can be a cheap late-night weirdo and no one gives me grief about it (check) and as long as it's quiet at night and quiet enough during the day so I can work at home and have it be chill and pleasant (check). All the other stuff, the great neighbors, the community feel, the small town folksiness, the outdoorsiness, the local food and whatever else are just gravy. I grew up in a town this small (that doesn't really exist anymore, it's more of a commuter suburb now) and now I live in a town the same size as an adult, a size that feels right to me. I'm pretty self-contained and so a lot of that other stuff--things to do, new restaurants to try, wide social circle--isn't really something I personally care about.
If I were a parent in this situation I'd be all about schoolschoolsschools. Because I had cosmopolitan parents who moved to a small town (with good schools) to have kids and there was something a little weird about not growing up in the same culture that my parents grew up in. They were more back-to-the-land-ers but had had big city advantages growing up whereas for me the small town was all I knew. Not a good or bad thing necessarily but it was always a little strange.
posted by jessamyn at 6:59 PM on April 7, 2013
- Knowing my neighbors and feeling like I kind of get the place, the whole place, where I read the paper and know who they're talking about and care about what is going on
- Being able to walk to basic things (post office, restaurant, supermarket, bank) even if I have to drive to get to less-basic things (comedy club, ethnic food, something to do at night, other friends)
- Everyone sort of accepts you how you are. Obviously YMMV here but I have a lot of friends with kids and friends without kids and friends in non-traditional relationships and people are basically just chill about it. There's no norm really. When I was in the city I felt like I was jockeying for position in my smaller subgroup and there was a lot of "Oh THIS is the good coffee shop and that coffee shop SUCKS" sort of thing and I found it exhausting. Good for other people, not good for me.
I had good friends who made a big move from Seattle (where I was) to Brooklyn when they were about four months pregnant. People were sort of like "Whaaaa?" But they explained it like this "We have a job offer, it's a better job. We are the sort of people who like where we are and we're sure that we'll like it there" and they did. For me, I can be satisfied most places as long as I feel like I can be a cheap late-night weirdo and no one gives me grief about it (check) and as long as it's quiet at night and quiet enough during the day so I can work at home and have it be chill and pleasant (check). All the other stuff, the great neighbors, the community feel, the small town folksiness, the outdoorsiness, the local food and whatever else are just gravy. I grew up in a town this small (that doesn't really exist anymore, it's more of a commuter suburb now) and now I live in a town the same size as an adult, a size that feels right to me. I'm pretty self-contained and so a lot of that other stuff--things to do, new restaurants to try, wide social circle--isn't really something I personally care about.
If I were a parent in this situation I'd be all about schoolschoolsschools. Because I had cosmopolitan parents who moved to a small town (with good schools) to have kids and there was something a little weird about not growing up in the same culture that my parents grew up in. They were more back-to-the-land-ers but had had big city advantages growing up whereas for me the small town was all I knew. Not a good or bad thing necessarily but it was always a little strange.
posted by jessamyn at 6:59 PM on April 7, 2013
What are the suburbs like around BigCity University? It's fairly common for people who work in a city to live in the neighboring suburbs and commute. Best of both worlds. Also school districts are better in the suburbs, which is something you may need to start thinking about soon.
posted by DoubleLune at 7:18 PM on April 7, 2013
posted by DoubleLune at 7:18 PM on April 7, 2013
It's a hard decision! Like you, I see and have enjoyed lots of good things about small towns, smaller cities, and Big Cities.
Career is obviously playing a part in your decision, but it's a little unclear how a move to Big City would affect your and your spouse's career. Schools are a concern too, but big cities also usually offer a lot more in the way of choice among schools (magnets, charters, private, different neighborhood schools) than small towns, though there may be a couple good options in a small town.
It sounds to me like what's motivating you isn't really the size of the municipality, or even its resources, but being able to find the kinds of leisure time experiences and social life you want in your off hours. It might be good to jusk ask yourself what you'd like the option to do on a normal, tapped-out weeknight: relax on the porch with a beer, or get Korean taco takeout and catch an art-house flick? etc. And on the weekend. Because so much of where you live really isn't about maximizing and about the peak moments and using all the resources, but really the day-t-day quality of life.
Choosing a community is more important than choosing a city/noncity. "Small town" can certainly mean homogenous, dull, mom-jeans, but it can also mean DIY, locally focused, and grassrootsy. It sounds like you like the latter sort of thing, and if you feel you can find that in small town, it's likely you'd be content. And you can always go for weekends in Big City. So I would say decide based on the community you want to be part of - where are you more likely to find that?
I like both environments, and have lived in small towns and small cities and Big Cities. I really liked all my small places, but oddly, the older I get the more I gravitate toward the resources and energy and diversity of urbanity. However, if I could find enough of all that in a small town that my daily life didn't feel impoverished, I'd be pretty content to enjoy Small Town as a place to live, and do a lot of extracurricular stuff (so to speak) in Big City.
posted by Miko at 7:24 PM on April 7, 2013
Career is obviously playing a part in your decision, but it's a little unclear how a move to Big City would affect your and your spouse's career. Schools are a concern too, but big cities also usually offer a lot more in the way of choice among schools (magnets, charters, private, different neighborhood schools) than small towns, though there may be a couple good options in a small town.
It sounds to me like what's motivating you isn't really the size of the municipality, or even its resources, but being able to find the kinds of leisure time experiences and social life you want in your off hours. It might be good to jusk ask yourself what you'd like the option to do on a normal, tapped-out weeknight: relax on the porch with a beer, or get Korean taco takeout and catch an art-house flick? etc. And on the weekend. Because so much of where you live really isn't about maximizing and about the peak moments and using all the resources, but really the day-t-day quality of life.
Choosing a community is more important than choosing a city/noncity. "Small town" can certainly mean homogenous, dull, mom-jeans, but it can also mean DIY, locally focused, and grassrootsy. It sounds like you like the latter sort of thing, and if you feel you can find that in small town, it's likely you'd be content. And you can always go for weekends in Big City. So I would say decide based on the community you want to be part of - where are you more likely to find that?
I like both environments, and have lived in small towns and small cities and Big Cities. I really liked all my small places, but oddly, the older I get the more I gravitate toward the resources and energy and diversity of urbanity. However, if I could find enough of all that in a small town that my daily life didn't feel impoverished, I'd be pretty content to enjoy Small Town as a place to live, and do a lot of extracurricular stuff (so to speak) in Big City.
posted by Miko at 7:24 PM on April 7, 2013
I grew up in a small city (Kalamazoo, MI), went to Chicago for college and grad school, spent some time in a small town (Cambridge, England) and a big city (Berlin) during my studies, then landed a job in a small town (Amherst, MA). I occasionally escape the small town for short terms in the big city (mostly Paris).
My take is that I can adapt to wherever I happen to be, but I have come to prefer the calm and space of small town life. However, one big advantage of the academic life, especially if you don't have to coordinate two careers, is the summers and the sabbaticals. My wife and I are both historians of Europe, and we often spend a month or two every summer overseas, usually based in big cities. We've had sabbatical leaves where we pack up and move to a big city (Paris). Depending on the academic specialty of the person with the academic job, you can enjoy the benefits of small town life while still enjoying big city life when the opportunity is there - and in academe, the opportunity can be there far more often than in other walks of life. I love living in Paris for a year, and going back for a month or two in the summer, but I know it would drive me mad (or at least, to the provinces) if I had to live there all the time. If we had a *really* attractive offer from a university in a big city, we'd consider it carefully, but right now, we're happy being country mice who occasionally put on airs and live in the city for a while.
posted by brianogilvie at 7:49 PM on April 7, 2013
My take is that I can adapt to wherever I happen to be, but I have come to prefer the calm and space of small town life. However, one big advantage of the academic life, especially if you don't have to coordinate two careers, is the summers and the sabbaticals. My wife and I are both historians of Europe, and we often spend a month or two every summer overseas, usually based in big cities. We've had sabbatical leaves where we pack up and move to a big city (Paris). Depending on the academic specialty of the person with the academic job, you can enjoy the benefits of small town life while still enjoying big city life when the opportunity is there - and in academe, the opportunity can be there far more often than in other walks of life. I love living in Paris for a year, and going back for a month or two in the summer, but I know it would drive me mad (or at least, to the provinces) if I had to live there all the time. If we had a *really* attractive offer from a university in a big city, we'd consider it carefully, but right now, we're happy being country mice who occasionally put on airs and live in the city for a while.
posted by brianogilvie at 7:49 PM on April 7, 2013
I've lived in Big, I've lived in Small.
Right now I live in Big.
I'm constantly trying to find a way to get back to Small, except that it's near impossible to find a job there.
Big has crime. Big has no neighbors - at least none that you get to know. Big has traffic. Big has culture, and museums, and restaurants, and fashion.
Small has internet, which acts as a pretty damn good gateway to all things found in Big.
YMMV.
posted by matty at 7:59 PM on April 7, 2013
Right now I live in Big.
I'm constantly trying to find a way to get back to Small, except that it's near impossible to find a job there.
Big has crime. Big has no neighbors - at least none that you get to know. Big has traffic. Big has culture, and museums, and restaurants, and fashion.
Small has internet, which acts as a pretty damn good gateway to all things found in Big.
YMMV.
posted by matty at 7:59 PM on April 7, 2013
How old are your kids? How close/far are big and small to the most important people in your life?
Small sounds simpler. It means an easier more relaxed lifestyle. That would be it for me. We chose simpler recently, although the two cities were similar in size, and I have never regretted it.
posted by dpx.mfx at 8:13 PM on April 7, 2013
Small sounds simpler. It means an easier more relaxed lifestyle. That would be it for me. We chose simpler recently, although the two cities were similar in size, and I have never regretted it.
posted by dpx.mfx at 8:13 PM on April 7, 2013
Is there no burbs of the Big City option? I would pick that if you could find a location that has more reasonable housing prices and a reasonable commute.
posted by skrozidile at 8:20 PM on April 7, 2013
posted by skrozidile at 8:20 PM on April 7, 2013
I live in Small and have a second home in Big. The idea of buying the second home in Big, originally, was to sort of test the waters and see if we wanted to move there permanently--shift a portion of our work there, spend more time there, and get a more realistic view of what it's like to live there.
The result of this experiment was a greatly enhanced appreciation for Small Town living. Life is just so easy here. No traffic, and we barely use the car anyway, since virtually everything is within a ten-minute walk. Hardly any social stratification, and much less status competition--there's not much shopping here so we're all wearing pretty much the same clothes, driving the same cars, etc. Virtually no violent crime. This is huge. I'm a small woman and have zero qualms about going for a walk in the middle of the night if I can't sleep. It's a university town, so although we don't have nearly as many entertainments as Big City, we have enough. The one thing we really lack is good restaurants, but we go to Big City often enough to satisfy that need.
It's funny. I was so sure it would go the other way. I do still really enjoy Big City, but in small doses. Small Town is where home is.
posted by HotToddy at 8:23 PM on April 7, 2013
The result of this experiment was a greatly enhanced appreciation for Small Town living. Life is just so easy here. No traffic, and we barely use the car anyway, since virtually everything is within a ten-minute walk. Hardly any social stratification, and much less status competition--there's not much shopping here so we're all wearing pretty much the same clothes, driving the same cars, etc. Virtually no violent crime. This is huge. I'm a small woman and have zero qualms about going for a walk in the middle of the night if I can't sleep. It's a university town, so although we don't have nearly as many entertainments as Big City, we have enough. The one thing we really lack is good restaurants, but we go to Big City often enough to satisfy that need.
It's funny. I was so sure it would go the other way. I do still really enjoy Big City, but in small doses. Small Town is where home is.
posted by HotToddy at 8:23 PM on April 7, 2013
I'm from a small town. I currently live in a big city. The thing is, a big city is not the same everywhere you go, from one side of the city to the other. My current neighborhood is an actual neighborhood. When my husband and I were moving furniture into our place, my neighbor dropped what he was doing to help us. There are a few restaurants nearby, a few that are a bit of a walk, and a lot more if we hop on a bus or metro. There's a bus stop right on our block. We don't own a car so we don't have to deal with parking but we are a part of two car-sharing organizations so if we need one, we can get one. And this neighborhood is pretty kid-friendly. We live across the street from a park with a playground and it seems like there are lots of families nearby. I feel like it's a way to have it both ways in some respects.
I know this isn't an appealing prospect but wherever you move next doesn't have to be the place where you live for the rest of your lives. You can see how/if you like it and take it from there. I'd be tempted to go to the big city because it sounds like you'd be working for a more prestigious organization so I think it would be easier to get a job in small town if you decide later that that's what you really want. Plus you might make more money at big city job.
It sounds like you and your family are young. If you move to big city and hate it, you can leave. If you love it, great! But if you stay in one place, you'll never know.
posted by kat518 at 8:24 PM on April 7, 2013
I know this isn't an appealing prospect but wherever you move next doesn't have to be the place where you live for the rest of your lives. You can see how/if you like it and take it from there. I'd be tempted to go to the big city because it sounds like you'd be working for a more prestigious organization so I think it would be easier to get a job in small town if you decide later that that's what you really want. Plus you might make more money at big city job.
It sounds like you and your family are young. If you move to big city and hate it, you can leave. If you love it, great! But if you stay in one place, you'll never know.
posted by kat518 at 8:24 PM on April 7, 2013
This is impossible to answer without knowing the city!
I'm from NYC, which is very different for children than, say, Los Angeles where I live now.
Manhattan would be impossible to navigate with my toddler right now. Los angeles is craazzzzeeee easy with a toddler! And fun!!
It really depends on which city AND the age of your child/ren.
posted by jbenben at 8:29 PM on April 7, 2013
I'm from NYC, which is very different for children than, say, Los Angeles where I live now.
Manhattan would be impossible to navigate with my toddler right now. Los angeles is craazzzzeeee easy with a toddler! And fun!!
It really depends on which city AND the age of your child/ren.
posted by jbenben at 8:29 PM on April 7, 2013
a big city is not the same everywhere you go, from one side of the city to the other
And the same, crucially, is true for the Small and the Burbs. There are plenty of places outside of Big where you must have a car, can't walk to anything, have a boring neighborhood, have few food shopping choices, find little extra-family life going on outside of maybe coffee at the nearest Starbucks or a yoga class, etc.
Suburbs can be more imprisoning than the most monolithic city, if you don't want to or can't spend your day in the car traveling between your home and places that offer something of interest to you.
posted by Miko at 8:30 PM on April 7, 2013
And the same, crucially, is true for the Small and the Burbs. There are plenty of places outside of Big where you must have a car, can't walk to anything, have a boring neighborhood, have few food shopping choices, find little extra-family life going on outside of maybe coffee at the nearest Starbucks or a yoga class, etc.
Suburbs can be more imprisoning than the most monolithic city, if you don't want to or can't spend your day in the car traveling between your home and places that offer something of interest to you.
posted by Miko at 8:30 PM on April 7, 2013
One thing about Small is there isn't as much of anything. For instance, if you like Chinese food, there may be only one Chinese restaurant, and it might not be great. Whereas in Big, you will likely have a plethora of Chinese restaurants to choose from, and some might be great. Same goes for any retail business, movies, etc.
posted by scratch at 8:39 PM on April 7, 2013
posted by scratch at 8:39 PM on April 7, 2013
I lived in Small for 23 years. I've lived in Big for 7 weeks. I was overwhelmed at first, but I adjusted and to me it doesn't really feel any different now.
But I also had extensive big city experiences in my travels, and I was already more of a big city person.
posted by signondiego at 8:44 PM on April 7, 2013
But I also had extensive big city experiences in my travels, and I was already more of a big city person.
posted by signondiego at 8:44 PM on April 7, 2013
Focus on quality of life over quality of career when making your choice.
posted by KokuRyu at 9:05 PM on April 7, 2013
posted by KokuRyu at 9:05 PM on April 7, 2013
I went to high school in a town that had more cows than people in central New Jersey, where people took the train in to New York and did the big city thing there.
I like city life. I like having 10 sushi places to choose from, and I like being in a place where bands come through on tour. I like having art-house movies available to me, and a working transit system. I like having stuff I can do if I'm up at 2AM. I like having festivals that take place in my city. I like having job options if I want to change jobs but not sell my house.
But, when I lived in small towns (in New Jersey and east Texas), I liked things about where I was, too. I liked the postmaster knowing my name. I liked having a pond that the Canada Geese landed in just outside my door. I liked yuppified suburban grocery stores that were never inexplicably out of Orange Juice for 3 straight days. I liked having free parking almost everywhere I drove to.
So, take everything you can think of and everything we can think of, and write them down, just the advantages, and just the ones you care about. It may become readily apparent what you want.
posted by Mad_Carew at 9:47 PM on April 7, 2013
I like city life. I like having 10 sushi places to choose from, and I like being in a place where bands come through on tour. I like having art-house movies available to me, and a working transit system. I like having stuff I can do if I'm up at 2AM. I like having festivals that take place in my city. I like having job options if I want to change jobs but not sell my house.
But, when I lived in small towns (in New Jersey and east Texas), I liked things about where I was, too. I liked the postmaster knowing my name. I liked having a pond that the Canada Geese landed in just outside my door. I liked yuppified suburban grocery stores that were never inexplicably out of Orange Juice for 3 straight days. I liked having free parking almost everywhere I drove to.
So, take everything you can think of and everything we can think of, and write them down, just the advantages, and just the ones you care about. It may become readily apparent what you want.
posted by Mad_Carew at 9:47 PM on April 7, 2013
I grew up in big cities and spent most of my adult life in them, and always believed I couldn't stomach the monotony of a small town. Now I've moved to a small town in a house in the woods, deer visit us every day and it's magical. The Big city is an hour away when we want to eat somewhere very good or see a play.
I find myself no longer coveting new clothes, shoes, bags, makeup just to keep up. I am quite happy having the time and space to cook my meals rather than eat out all the time.
It's only been six months so far, but I very gladly choose small town over big city, especially with elementary-school aged kids.
posted by Dragonness at 9:54 PM on April 7, 2013
I find myself no longer coveting new clothes, shoes, bags, makeup just to keep up. I am quite happy having the time and space to cook my meals rather than eat out all the time.
It's only been six months so far, but I very gladly choose small town over big city, especially with elementary-school aged kids.
posted by Dragonness at 9:54 PM on April 7, 2013
I have never lived in a small town, but I'd like to make a shout-out for growing up in a Big City. Growing up in a city is awesome! I'm not sure if you should move or stay where you are, but don't think that you're short-changing your kids by moving to a city.
posted by ablazingsaddle at 10:57 PM on April 7, 2013
posted by ablazingsaddle at 10:57 PM on April 7, 2013
i'll throw in a coin for big city.
I've seen both sides of this, growing up in a city, but not a super big city. It's probably tier 2 or 3 as far as "lists of cities people think of in america".
Many friends of mine moved here from small towns, a few moved to small towns from here as kids and moved back.
I can definitely appreciate the appeal of being in a small community, nature being close at hand, the quiet, the clean air, etc but there's many things that bug me about small towns, and that are also what caused my friends(or some who moved younger, their parents) to go "fuck this!".
Mainly, the small community meaning a particle accelerator of drama/gossip, the inevitably worse schools(and communities within the schools) in small towns, the bigotry/closedmindedness that seems to leave a lot of small towns stuck 30+ years in the past if not more. These are all things i've heard repeatedly from people, and seen the aftermath of. I'm not saying BigCity would completely avoid and eliminate any of these problems, but they seem pretty well shoved aside most of the time.
things we like are hanging out with other families with kids, going on walks through the neighborhood, eating/cooking, going on easy hikes & picnics, but all very low-stress, low-key.
The last one may depend on the bigcity you chose, but my friends all grew up or moved to the pacific northwest area(although, it's worth noting for the rest of this post that many of them moved here from small towns in other states, or medium sized towns in middle america, etc) where picnics and hikes are a very short drive out of town. There's many other areas of the country where this would be true, and of course a few where it wouldn't be so much.
The rest though, we had in spades. All my childhood memories in BigCity are of all of those things, and both me and my friends parents were friends with many other families. I completely disagree with the "big city has no neighbors, at least that you get to know" thing. The entire time i was growing up we always knew a bunch of our neighbors, and they were always nice people, or at least interesting and wacky.
Mainly why i was even compelled to post though, is that there's a unilateral resentment among all my friends who were stuck in SmallTown through high school. I know many people had enjoyable experiences and/or love their home towns, but everyone i know was pretty soured on the experience and wanted to get the hell out as fast as they could. Which can seem especially pressing when you've seen several people get a job out of high school and just decide to stay stuck in the bubble of smalltown, with no real drive to explore the greater world.
In BigCity, so much is at your finger tips. Arts, music, every kind of person you could imagine. Anything you're interested in, there's probably a big group of people(if not many groups) active in it somewhere in town. It's very easy to feel like you're fucked up, or weird, or no one gives a shit about That Thing You Love whatever it is in a small town because no one else there does. There was something great about growing up in a big city and realizing when i was nearing the end of middle school, and really stretching my wings in that sense in high school that there were in fact lots of non-hypothetical people out there who shared my interests that i could relate to and make friends with.
That is a pretty powerful, amazing thing. And something all my friends who grew up in Smalltown resented having to wait years to find out. It's partially a "big fish in a small pond" feeling when you're wanting to grow and explore, but also just a much higher chance of this certain type of alienation that's hard to describe.
Sure there was magical time spent playing in the woods and such, but you reach a certain point like Q in star trek TNG when he describes his universe and how he's done mostly everything and has lost interest. As others have said, the internet is the gateway to most things a small town can't offer now... but then you're just stuck in front of a computer wondering what if.
This is really all conceptual and a bit philosophical though, as neither all small towns or big cities are created equal. Some small towns can be a bit amazing, and some big cities are a bit crap. I think it would have been a lot easier for us to give way better non conceptual advice if you had been more specific...
posted by emptythought at 2:31 AM on April 8, 2013
I've seen both sides of this, growing up in a city, but not a super big city. It's probably tier 2 or 3 as far as "lists of cities people think of in america".
Many friends of mine moved here from small towns, a few moved to small towns from here as kids and moved back.
I can definitely appreciate the appeal of being in a small community, nature being close at hand, the quiet, the clean air, etc but there's many things that bug me about small towns, and that are also what caused my friends(or some who moved younger, their parents) to go "fuck this!".
Mainly, the small community meaning a particle accelerator of drama/gossip, the inevitably worse schools(and communities within the schools) in small towns, the bigotry/closedmindedness that seems to leave a lot of small towns stuck 30+ years in the past if not more. These are all things i've heard repeatedly from people, and seen the aftermath of. I'm not saying BigCity would completely avoid and eliminate any of these problems, but they seem pretty well shoved aside most of the time.
things we like are hanging out with other families with kids, going on walks through the neighborhood, eating/cooking, going on easy hikes & picnics, but all very low-stress, low-key.
The last one may depend on the bigcity you chose, but my friends all grew up or moved to the pacific northwest area(although, it's worth noting for the rest of this post that many of them moved here from small towns in other states, or medium sized towns in middle america, etc) where picnics and hikes are a very short drive out of town. There's many other areas of the country where this would be true, and of course a few where it wouldn't be so much.
The rest though, we had in spades. All my childhood memories in BigCity are of all of those things, and both me and my friends parents were friends with many other families. I completely disagree with the "big city has no neighbors, at least that you get to know" thing. The entire time i was growing up we always knew a bunch of our neighbors, and they were always nice people, or at least interesting and wacky.
Mainly why i was even compelled to post though, is that there's a unilateral resentment among all my friends who were stuck in SmallTown through high school. I know many people had enjoyable experiences and/or love their home towns, but everyone i know was pretty soured on the experience and wanted to get the hell out as fast as they could. Which can seem especially pressing when you've seen several people get a job out of high school and just decide to stay stuck in the bubble of smalltown, with no real drive to explore the greater world.
In BigCity, so much is at your finger tips. Arts, music, every kind of person you could imagine. Anything you're interested in, there's probably a big group of people(if not many groups) active in it somewhere in town. It's very easy to feel like you're fucked up, or weird, or no one gives a shit about That Thing You Love whatever it is in a small town because no one else there does. There was something great about growing up in a big city and realizing when i was nearing the end of middle school, and really stretching my wings in that sense in high school that there were in fact lots of non-hypothetical people out there who shared my interests that i could relate to and make friends with.
That is a pretty powerful, amazing thing. And something all my friends who grew up in Smalltown resented having to wait years to find out. It's partially a "big fish in a small pond" feeling when you're wanting to grow and explore, but also just a much higher chance of this certain type of alienation that's hard to describe.
Sure there was magical time spent playing in the woods and such, but you reach a certain point like Q in star trek TNG when he describes his universe and how he's done mostly everything and has lost interest. As others have said, the internet is the gateway to most things a small town can't offer now... but then you're just stuck in front of a computer wondering what if.
This is really all conceptual and a bit philosophical though, as neither all small towns or big cities are created equal. Some small towns can be a bit amazing, and some big cities are a bit crap. I think it would have been a lot easier for us to give way better non conceptual advice if you had been more specific...
posted by emptythought at 2:31 AM on April 8, 2013
I grew up in large towns/small cities (including 15 years in a college town in a geographically unappealing area), then spent 1 year in a city-city before moving to the suburbs of a big city 10 years ago. I am considering moving to a small town/rural environment at some point after my daughter graduates high school, but only because I really, really want to own a big piece of land and do things that are prohibitively expensive in and around the big city. And I do so knowing I will deeply miss many of the conveniences of living near a big city.
For starters, if you pick the right neighborhood or suburb, it doesn't really feel like living "in the city" if that doesn't appeal to you. My neighborhood is full of quaint, charming bungalows and Victorians that is a delight to stroll around in, and where there's a decent sense of community and neighborliness. And yet it's a 20 minute walk to a dense, high-rise suburban downtown with shops and a movie theater, outdoor street malls and more than 100 restaurants--and that's not even the city proper. The city itself is there when you want it (arts and entertainment, national sports teams, enormous museums) and can safely be ignored the rest of the time. And there are definitely stay-at-home parents in my corner of big city/suburbia.
On the other hand, there's a sense of community that goes along with being affiliated with the university in a university town that you're not going to get being affiliated with a university that is just one small aspect of BigCity. My experience was that it is easier to find and sustain friendships with like-minded people in an academic enclave--especially if you're in the family stage of your life and you don't have the time or inclination to be driving all over God's creation to socialize with colleagues who scatter to the four winds when they're not on campus.
Also, if you're still talking about Ann Arbor, I don't think it's fair to characterize it as a "small town". It's actually a small city--an extremely well-endowed and relatively cosmopolitan one at that--when it comes to having many of the things that a big city offers. You've got the 10 sushi places, and the big performing acts will come through on tour. Its public schools are excellent, and I'm sure it has strong support for any extracurricular interests or special needs your kids may have or develop in the future. In fact, being on a single academic salary coming into BigCity, you could very easily find yourself priced out of the neighborhoods/suburbs with the cool people and good schools and find yourself taking a step down in terms of academic opportunities for your kids.
posted by drlith at 5:05 AM on April 8, 2013
For starters, if you pick the right neighborhood or suburb, it doesn't really feel like living "in the city" if that doesn't appeal to you. My neighborhood is full of quaint, charming bungalows and Victorians that is a delight to stroll around in, and where there's a decent sense of community and neighborliness. And yet it's a 20 minute walk to a dense, high-rise suburban downtown with shops and a movie theater, outdoor street malls and more than 100 restaurants--and that's not even the city proper. The city itself is there when you want it (arts and entertainment, national sports teams, enormous museums) and can safely be ignored the rest of the time. And there are definitely stay-at-home parents in my corner of big city/suburbia.
On the other hand, there's a sense of community that goes along with being affiliated with the university in a university town that you're not going to get being affiliated with a university that is just one small aspect of BigCity. My experience was that it is easier to find and sustain friendships with like-minded people in an academic enclave--especially if you're in the family stage of your life and you don't have the time or inclination to be driving all over God's creation to socialize with colleagues who scatter to the four winds when they're not on campus.
Also, if you're still talking about Ann Arbor, I don't think it's fair to characterize it as a "small town". It's actually a small city--an extremely well-endowed and relatively cosmopolitan one at that--when it comes to having many of the things that a big city offers. You've got the 10 sushi places, and the big performing acts will come through on tour. Its public schools are excellent, and I'm sure it has strong support for any extracurricular interests or special needs your kids may have or develop in the future. In fact, being on a single academic salary coming into BigCity, you could very easily find yourself priced out of the neighborhoods/suburbs with the cool people and good schools and find yourself taking a step down in terms of academic opportunities for your kids.
posted by drlith at 5:05 AM on April 8, 2013
One of us is a stay at home parent and that seems an almost non-existent lifestyle in BigCity.
Just FYI that is very likely to not be true in virtually any Big City. New York, Boston, SF, LA, Seattle -- all have large thriving communities of stay at home parents tribe-ing together for survival.
One other aspect: the Big City career bump may give you more options in the future in terms of job moves, so I'd think about that.
posted by DarlingBri at 5:22 AM on April 8, 2013
Just FYI that is very likely to not be true in virtually any Big City. New York, Boston, SF, LA, Seattle -- all have large thriving communities of stay at home parents tribe-ing together for survival.
One other aspect: the Big City career bump may give you more options in the future in terms of job moves, so I'd think about that.
posted by DarlingBri at 5:22 AM on April 8, 2013
Depends on who you are.
Nashville was too small for me. I had no idea until I moved there. I'm in Atlanta now.
Small works as long as everyone has a job. If you lose your job, you're hosed. In a Big City, you lose your job, you'll find another, or you can easily sell up and move if you need to. It's cheaper to buy a house in a small town, and harder to sell if you need to do so in a hurry.
Big cities will have neighborhoods, which will substitute for the small town feel. You'll find the "high street" (why don't we have an American equivalent of that most excellent noun?) will have shops and cafes and dogs, etc.
You'll have your answer quite easily actually. If you had all the money in the world, and didn't have to worry about housing resale, or alternate employment or any pragmatic stuff, where would you prefer to live? That's where you should live.
The rest is just risk management.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:04 AM on April 8, 2013
Nashville was too small for me. I had no idea until I moved there. I'm in Atlanta now.
Small works as long as everyone has a job. If you lose your job, you're hosed. In a Big City, you lose your job, you'll find another, or you can easily sell up and move if you need to. It's cheaper to buy a house in a small town, and harder to sell if you need to do so in a hurry.
Big cities will have neighborhoods, which will substitute for the small town feel. You'll find the "high street" (why don't we have an American equivalent of that most excellent noun?) will have shops and cafes and dogs, etc.
You'll have your answer quite easily actually. If you had all the money in the world, and didn't have to worry about housing resale, or alternate employment or any pragmatic stuff, where would you prefer to live? That's where you should live.
The rest is just risk management.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:04 AM on April 8, 2013
Thank you, this is all very helpful. Kid is toddler age and there might be a sibling, eventually. We think now that we could find good schools in BigCity, very good schools in SmallTown. Suburbs are most emphatically not an option. We've discussed this and are both on the same page - no way.
I left the question open as I was interested in a variety of opinions - we know about the details, since we've lived in both places and have done a ton of research, but we're unsure about how to make such a decision in general. (If you're still curious, SmallTown is Ann Arbor - so not really tiny, but small compared to all cities we've lived in so far. Big City is the Bay Area, specifically, Berkeley. We are looking at North Berkeley, Albany or Kensington since they have OK public schools. Family is in Europe and flight connections are about the same.)
posted by The Toad at 6:38 AM on April 8, 2013
I left the question open as I was interested in a variety of opinions - we know about the details, since we've lived in both places and have done a ton of research, but we're unsure about how to make such a decision in general. (If you're still curious, SmallTown is Ann Arbor - so not really tiny, but small compared to all cities we've lived in so far. Big City is the Bay Area, specifically, Berkeley. We are looking at North Berkeley, Albany or Kensington since they have OK public schools. Family is in Europe and flight connections are about the same.)
posted by The Toad at 6:38 AM on April 8, 2013
If you're still curious, SmallTown is Ann Arbor
Ann Arbor has over 100,000 people, so I'm not sure if anything I've said about small towns would be applicable at all. I don't know about anyone else.
posted by jessamyn at 7:20 AM on April 8, 2013
Ann Arbor has over 100,000 people, so I'm not sure if anything I've said about small towns would be applicable at all. I don't know about anyone else.
posted by jessamyn at 7:20 AM on April 8, 2013
Ann Arbor is just about the epitome of what Big Cityness small towns can offer -- U of M has way more cultural seep than just about anyplace else I can think of, except maybe Berkeley and Boulder. So you may be pretty close to having it all.
Just by way of more data, I will say that I live in a Big City where I planned to spend 3-5 years before going back to smaller places. Am still here 16 years later. The main reason for me turned out to be that what I love about rural places I will still seek out -- I will take hikes and camping trips and find quiet corners even in the big city -- while what I love about the city requires immersion -- if I live outside the city, I'm never going to come in for more than an afternoon or occasional overnight, and what I really like is walking places, and taking transit, and being able to pick from 20 restaurants on a whim (even in the post-kid era when whim seems so rare), and having "ownership" of all the little holes in the wall and shops and whatever that make up my daily round.
And, honestly, it turns out that my particular Big City offers a kind of regular aesthetic pleasure (yellow ginko leaves on red brick sidewalks, say, or snow in wrought-iron bannisters) that feeds my soul in important ways (not unlike the joys of just being near mountains or water, kind of what you meant by looking up and saying Wow We Live Here). And those things matter to life satisfaction too.
So, more grist for the mill. In the end, you'll weigh the various factors in ways unique to your family and your tastes. Sounds like you have good choices though, for both settings and career paths! yay.
posted by acm at 7:46 AM on April 8, 2013
Just by way of more data, I will say that I live in a Big City where I planned to spend 3-5 years before going back to smaller places. Am still here 16 years later. The main reason for me turned out to be that what I love about rural places I will still seek out -- I will take hikes and camping trips and find quiet corners even in the big city -- while what I love about the city requires immersion -- if I live outside the city, I'm never going to come in for more than an afternoon or occasional overnight, and what I really like is walking places, and taking transit, and being able to pick from 20 restaurants on a whim (even in the post-kid era when whim seems so rare), and having "ownership" of all the little holes in the wall and shops and whatever that make up my daily round.
And, honestly, it turns out that my particular Big City offers a kind of regular aesthetic pleasure (yellow ginko leaves on red brick sidewalks, say, or snow in wrought-iron bannisters) that feeds my soul in important ways (not unlike the joys of just being near mountains or water, kind of what you meant by looking up and saying Wow We Live Here). And those things matter to life satisfaction too.
So, more grist for the mill. In the end, you'll weigh the various factors in ways unique to your family and your tastes. Sounds like you have good choices though, for both settings and career paths! yay.
posted by acm at 7:46 AM on April 8, 2013
Oh my goodness, yeah--I was talking about much, much smaller than Ann Arbor. I wouldn't consider that a small town at all. Never mind!
posted by HotToddy at 8:10 AM on April 8, 2013
posted by HotToddy at 8:10 AM on April 8, 2013
I've done both and on the whole Small wins out if you can make a decent living and have access to enough cultural experiences in neighboring BigCity. The BigCity was nice in some ways but in my observation most of the advantages benefit those who can comfortable afford life in the city. It can be miserable being on the short end of the income scale in the city, but things tend to be more normalized and a lot less competitive in smaller towns.
posted by dgran at 8:38 AM on April 8, 2013
posted by dgran at 8:38 AM on April 8, 2013
I suspect that your current life-style of one public university employee and a stay at home parent is going to be financially tight in a safe, public transit friendly, walk-able neighborhood in Berkeley unless the university employee is a Chancellor or something. Rents are at a premium in the neighborhoods that are safe and have good public schools, because as a general statement the public schools in California are in crisis. If you want to buy a house someday and have been looking online, listed real estate prices in the desirable parts of the Bay Area have (in my experience) been deceptive. Many people list a house low to get interest and then the house sells in several days, usually with multiple all-cash offers significantly over the list price. I would put your estimate of a 30-50% premium over Ann Arbor as too low, in my experience.
I don't mean to be overly negative, but I lived in the Bay Area for over a decade and moved away because of the quality of life issues. I arrived in my 20s and left in my 30s. By the time I left, the only people in my circle of friends who were settled in for the long-haul in the Bay Area were people either 1) from California or 2) partnered to people from California. Everyone I knew who had relocated from a different area of the country had not stayed, also for financial and quality of life reasons. YMMV.
posted by artdesk at 9:08 AM on April 8, 2013
I don't mean to be overly negative, but I lived in the Bay Area for over a decade and moved away because of the quality of life issues. I arrived in my 20s and left in my 30s. By the time I left, the only people in my circle of friends who were settled in for the long-haul in the Bay Area were people either 1) from California or 2) partnered to people from California. Everyone I knew who had relocated from a different area of the country had not stayed, also for financial and quality of life reasons. YMMV.
posted by artdesk at 9:08 AM on April 8, 2013
Oh! HELL NO! Run, run away from California!
As bad as Michigan is, California is in worse shape. Proposition 13 ruined public school education in California (I say this as a person who went to grade school in California and finished College in California State University system.)
I'd do Ann Arbor over Berkeley and damn day of the week. The taxes (state, property, etc) will be better.
Also, no Earthquakes in Michigan. Were you aware that IF you can get Earthquake insurance in California, that the deductable on it is 30% of the value of the home? Yeah, that's not cool. (I moved in 1990 after the Loma Prieta Earthquake. When a freeway you travel on everyday falls down and kills your fellow commuters...that's not so cool.)
Berlekey is weird. Sure, in the hills it can be nice, but you do have to shop and mix and mingle and down in Berkeley proper, that's a rat's nest.
I lived in Albany, and it used to be nice, but I wouldn't live there now. No how, no way.
Food and gas are hideously expensive (so much so that when I moved to Florida, I giggled in the grocery store because it was SO much cheaper!). State income tax is no joke either.
If you like Ann Arbor, then that's probably where you're going to find a good quality of life. It's really, freaking hard to live in California.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 9:17 AM on April 8, 2013
As bad as Michigan is, California is in worse shape. Proposition 13 ruined public school education in California (I say this as a person who went to grade school in California and finished College in California State University system.)
I'd do Ann Arbor over Berkeley and damn day of the week. The taxes (state, property, etc) will be better.
Also, no Earthquakes in Michigan. Were you aware that IF you can get Earthquake insurance in California, that the deductable on it is 30% of the value of the home? Yeah, that's not cool. (I moved in 1990 after the Loma Prieta Earthquake. When a freeway you travel on everyday falls down and kills your fellow commuters...that's not so cool.)
Berlekey is weird. Sure, in the hills it can be nice, but you do have to shop and mix and mingle and down in Berkeley proper, that's a rat's nest.
I lived in Albany, and it used to be nice, but I wouldn't live there now. No how, no way.
Food and gas are hideously expensive (so much so that when I moved to Florida, I giggled in the grocery store because it was SO much cheaper!). State income tax is no joke either.
If you like Ann Arbor, then that's probably where you're going to find a good quality of life. It's really, freaking hard to live in California.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 9:17 AM on April 8, 2013
SmallTown is Ann Arbor
Yeah, that's not a small town by most measures and it already offers you almost everything you say you want, so my comments are probably unhelpful at this point. I think you'd have a pretty hard time beating the quality of life you have there.
A career driven thing is about the only reason I'd consider moving to that particular big city. It's not like your own neighborhood is known only for East Bumcrack State Normal School, but it is more of a one-company town.
posted by Miko at 9:51 AM on April 8, 2013
Yeah, that's not a small town by most measures and it already offers you almost everything you say you want, so my comments are probably unhelpful at this point. I think you'd have a pretty hard time beating the quality of life you have there.
A career driven thing is about the only reason I'd consider moving to that particular big city. It's not like your own neighborhood is known only for East Bumcrack State Normal School, but it is more of a one-company town.
posted by Miko at 9:51 AM on April 8, 2013
Just as Ann Arbor is not a small town, I'm not sure Berkeley and environs is what people had in mind when you said Big City. I'd consider it more of like half "small city" considered on its own and half "suburb" in comparison to the actual Big City. In fact, when you say "suburbs are most emphatically not an option" and then list potential homesites that are suburbs, it's a little confusing.
I also think you're far underestimating the difference in housing prices between Ann Arbor and Berkeley area.
posted by drlith at 10:28 AM on April 8, 2013
I also think you're far underestimating the difference in housing prices between Ann Arbor and Berkeley area.
posted by drlith at 10:28 AM on April 8, 2013
Good point. I don't think Berkeley has the density to feel like a big city in most meaningful ways.
posted by Miko at 10:38 AM on April 8, 2013
posted by Miko at 10:38 AM on April 8, 2013
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If you can handle opening your door and having people be right there, going about their own lives, then the advantages of Big Cities are very very strong. Transit, shopping, culture, entertainment, career, opportunities, friends, in abundance. You'll spend more money on everything, but you'll get more back for your money and with less effort because it's all right there.
But if people bug you; if you need space not just in your home but outside of it, space and peace and silence and the freedom to control your personal environment to a large degree, then Big is not for you. You'll spend less money, but probably need to spend more time in getting things done. Commuting, running errands, having to go to Town for some things.
So, how are you with people?
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:24 PM on April 7, 2013