How do you make a choice when one spouse will end up unhappy no matter what?
May 20, 2011 12:21 PM Subscribe
I want to quit my job, sell our house, and move our family to a house that has been in my family for several generations. My husband cannot get on-board with this idea.
After years and years of working in a very stressful job, I'm rapidly coming to the end of my rope. I want to sell our current home (we would walk away with about $200K cash by selling, even in this market), and move my family (husband, child, me) to the house where I grew up.
That house is about an hour from here, in a much more rural area. My husband has about a half-hour commute, and moving would not change his commute, except he'd be traveling in the other direction. Our child starts school in September (kindergarten half-days) and I'd REALLY like to be able to be a stay at home PTA mom.
Financially, this makes good sense. The family house does need a little work, but if we put $50K into it, we would still have the other $150K from the sale of our house to provide a cushion for property taxes and unexpected expenses. My husband's salary could pay our other living expenses - it wouldn't be luxury, but it would be easily doable.
My husband, however, flatly refuses to consider this. He says he doesn't want to leave our city, loves our current house (as do I, actually, except for the part where I work like a dog to pay the mortgage and heat, and where neither of us have the time to devote to real 'upkeep' since we're both working), and doesn't want to live in the more-rural community. He also feels it will be problematic for us to be an hour away from our core group of friends, and I suspect this is his biggest objection.
I've been looking for a new job for almost two years, without success, and the more time passes and the older our child gets, the more I realize that I'm completely missing out on the fun parts of being a mom.
Communication isn't an issue here. We're each communicating very clearly about this issue, and we each understand the others' point of view. We're just at an impasse. I strongly want to do this - not only because I want to be a stay-at-home mom, but because I want our child to have the same kind of idyllic, free-range, playing in the creek and climbing trees childhood that I had. My husband strongly does not, mainly because he says he would "feel isolated" in the new community.
One of us needs to be unhappy about this. How do we decide which of us is the loser here.
You're going to say "therapy". Trust me that this isn't a therapy-worthy issue. Plus, every couple we've ever known who has gone to therapy - even just to "make the relationship stronger' has ended up splitting up - so in the absence of any real problems in our relationship, he's not going to go for that, and I think (honestly) it would be a waste of money. So: recommend books, tools, tips, mediators, flipping a coin - but traditional therapy isn't the right answer here.
After years and years of working in a very stressful job, I'm rapidly coming to the end of my rope. I want to sell our current home (we would walk away with about $200K cash by selling, even in this market), and move my family (husband, child, me) to the house where I grew up.
That house is about an hour from here, in a much more rural area. My husband has about a half-hour commute, and moving would not change his commute, except he'd be traveling in the other direction. Our child starts school in September (kindergarten half-days) and I'd REALLY like to be able to be a stay at home PTA mom.
Financially, this makes good sense. The family house does need a little work, but if we put $50K into it, we would still have the other $150K from the sale of our house to provide a cushion for property taxes and unexpected expenses. My husband's salary could pay our other living expenses - it wouldn't be luxury, but it would be easily doable.
My husband, however, flatly refuses to consider this. He says he doesn't want to leave our city, loves our current house (as do I, actually, except for the part where I work like a dog to pay the mortgage and heat, and where neither of us have the time to devote to real 'upkeep' since we're both working), and doesn't want to live in the more-rural community. He also feels it will be problematic for us to be an hour away from our core group of friends, and I suspect this is his biggest objection.
I've been looking for a new job for almost two years, without success, and the more time passes and the older our child gets, the more I realize that I'm completely missing out on the fun parts of being a mom.
Communication isn't an issue here. We're each communicating very clearly about this issue, and we each understand the others' point of view. We're just at an impasse. I strongly want to do this - not only because I want to be a stay-at-home mom, but because I want our child to have the same kind of idyllic, free-range, playing in the creek and climbing trees childhood that I had. My husband strongly does not, mainly because he says he would "feel isolated" in the new community.
One of us needs to be unhappy about this. How do we decide which of us is the loser here.
You're going to say "therapy". Trust me that this isn't a therapy-worthy issue. Plus, every couple we've ever known who has gone to therapy - even just to "make the relationship stronger' has ended up splitting up - so in the absence of any real problems in our relationship, he's not going to go for that, and I think (honestly) it would be a waste of money. So: recommend books, tools, tips, mediators, flipping a coin - but traditional therapy isn't the right answer here.
You are at an impasse because you've constructed a situation where there are only two options. In the "real world" there are thousands of options. One I just thought of off the top of my head:
Sell both houses and move to a smaller house that's both more rural and still close to your old neighborhood. It might not be enough mortgage difference for you to stay home full-time, but you might be able to swing part-time or home contracting work.
posted by muddgirl at 12:26 PM on May 20, 2011 [64 favorites]
Sell both houses and move to a smaller house that's both more rural and still close to your old neighborhood. It might not be enough mortgage difference for you to stay home full-time, but you might be able to swing part-time or home contracting work.
posted by muddgirl at 12:26 PM on May 20, 2011 [64 favorites]
one of needs to be unhappy about this ? Someone has to be the loser here ?
Well, framed that way is a losing proposition all around. Sounds like both of you are dug in. Regardless of whether your positions are justifiable or not, digging in and playing chicken about who will blink first, since someone has to lose, is no way to be in a relationship, nor act like an adult. I'm sorry you aren't willing to consider therapy, because that mindset tends to end in tears.
So I'll echo muddgirl's comment, there are alternatives. Find one both of you can live with, get rid of the false-choice either/or, get rid of the one must win mindset.
posted by k5.user at 12:34 PM on May 20, 2011 [4 favorites]
Well, framed that way is a losing proposition all around. Sounds like both of you are dug in. Regardless of whether your positions are justifiable or not, digging in and playing chicken about who will blink first, since someone has to lose, is no way to be in a relationship, nor act like an adult. I'm sorry you aren't willing to consider therapy, because that mindset tends to end in tears.
So I'll echo muddgirl's comment, there are alternatives. Find one both of you can live with, get rid of the false-choice either/or, get rid of the one must win mindset.
posted by k5.user at 12:34 PM on May 20, 2011 [4 favorites]
You are uncomfortable with the idea of therapy, but are reaching out for ideas from others about how to resolve this conflict. Would you and your husband consider mediation as an alternative? Most communities have mediators that work on a volunteer or sliding scale fee who could help you find a compromise that would feel more equitable to you both. Having the input of an objective outsider can be helpful. Google mediation and you shoudl be able to find someone near you.
posted by goggie at 12:35 PM on May 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by goggie at 12:35 PM on May 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
What muddgirl said. Another option is move into someplace less expensive within the city, or on the outskirts of the city. If you can cut the mortgage enough (and with $200K in equity in your current house, this should be possible), you can be a stay at home mom. If you're not in a rural area, you can take your kids out to the family homestead or other rural areas and let them run around sometimes. You'd still be close to your friends and the city. You'd also both be giving up something but also getting key elements of what seems to be important to you.
posted by maxim0512 at 12:37 PM on May 20, 2011
posted by maxim0512 at 12:37 PM on May 20, 2011
Muddgirl's suggestion is an excellent compromise. The basic problem is that you desperately need to reframe this issue. Instead of giving your husband some kind of ultimatum, it would be better to present him with the problems that you want to deal with, and enlist his help in addressing them. The method you two have used so far is basically adversarial and that's not a good problem-solving approach for married people who want to stay married.
You might not end up in the childhood house, but there's no reason you can't keep your marriage, gain some extra time with your child, and escape an unhealthy work environment. You might even change scenery.
posted by Hylas at 12:37 PM on May 20, 2011 [3 favorites]
You might not end up in the childhood house, but there's no reason you can't keep your marriage, gain some extra time with your child, and escape an unhealthy work environment. You might even change scenery.
posted by Hylas at 12:37 PM on May 20, 2011 [3 favorites]
You've listed a lot of benefits for yourself. What are the benefits for your husband, and for your family as a whole? I think that is how you should frame any discussions with your husband - how would this move benefit the family?
posted by SuperSquirrel at 12:38 PM on May 20, 2011 [9 favorites]
posted by SuperSquirrel at 12:38 PM on May 20, 2011 [9 favorites]
He also feels it will be problematic for us to be an hour away from our core group of friends, and I suspect this is his biggest objection.
If you only suspect that this is his biggest objection, you've not got to the heart of the matter with him. I would guess that he has other, larger objections that he's not (yet) shared with you too. To be able to resolve this issue, you'll need to get all (your and his) of the cards on the table.
Nobody needs to be the loser here. If you communicate and compromise enough, you can surely get a win-win out of this.
posted by Juso No Thankyou at 12:41 PM on May 20, 2011 [5 favorites]
If you only suspect that this is his biggest objection, you've not got to the heart of the matter with him. I would guess that he has other, larger objections that he's not (yet) shared with you too. To be able to resolve this issue, you'll need to get all (your and his) of the cards on the table.
Nobody needs to be the loser here. If you communicate and compromise enough, you can surely get a win-win out of this.
posted by Juso No Thankyou at 12:41 PM on May 20, 2011 [5 favorites]
I don't know what the right answer is here, but my experience has been that if you set up a situation in your marriage where one of you has to win and one of you has to lose, what actually happens it that both of you lose.
posted by mhoye at 12:45 PM on May 20, 2011 [25 favorites]
posted by mhoye at 12:45 PM on May 20, 2011 [25 favorites]
What SuperSquirrel said. If I were your husband, it would be hard for me not to feel a little resentful. You get to quit your job while I pay all the bills, you get to move back to your family home while I'm stuck in the boonies, and I get...what, exactly? Yes, it's true that marriage shouldn't be approached from a "what's in it for me" perspective, but from the outside, it seems like your motivations are primarily selfish and don't take his viewpoint into consideration.
Can you try to see things from his point of view? How could you focus on his needs, too? We can't answer those questions for you since we don't know all the parameters, but it might help to start thinking about this from another perspective than your own. Good luck, and I hope you're able to find a resolution that leaves you both happy, and your marriage strong.
posted by pecanpies at 12:46 PM on May 20, 2011 [47 favorites]
Can you try to see things from his point of view? How could you focus on his needs, too? We can't answer those questions for you since we don't know all the parameters, but it might help to start thinking about this from another perspective than your own. Good luck, and I hope you're able to find a resolution that leaves you both happy, and your marriage strong.
posted by pecanpies at 12:46 PM on May 20, 2011 [47 favorites]
In this market you have no guarantee your house would sell, period.
You have several issues here, not just one. Decide what your primary concern is. If it is to be a stay at home mom, then THAT is what you talk to husband about. Let him help brainstorm ways to make that happen.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 12:49 PM on May 20, 2011 [6 favorites]
You have several issues here, not just one. Decide what your primary concern is. If it is to be a stay at home mom, then THAT is what you talk to husband about. Let him help brainstorm ways to make that happen.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 12:49 PM on May 20, 2011 [6 favorites]
He also feels it will be problematic for us to be an hour away from our core group of friends, and I suspect this is his biggest objection.
It is a valid objection. As someone who moved away from a core group of awesome people to a rural area, I can tell you that the ensuing isolation (real or just comparative) can be very, very difficult for the person who is not moving "home."
Communication isn't an issue here. We're each communicating very clearly about this issue, and we each understand the others' point of view.
I don't think you do. If you believe you are at an impasse and are seeing things in black-and-white, either-or terms, then communication is definitely an issue. You say that you're happy where you are with the exception of having to work hard to make the mortgage. So if that's really the case, then a great compromise is to a smaller, cheaper place in the city you're currently in, thereby being able to cut back on your work while keeping the social support structure in place. Win-win. Of course that only works if you are really listening to your husband and trying to meet him halfway.
posted by headnsouth at 12:50 PM on May 20, 2011 [6 favorites]
It is a valid objection. As someone who moved away from a core group of awesome people to a rural area, I can tell you that the ensuing isolation (real or just comparative) can be very, very difficult for the person who is not moving "home."
Communication isn't an issue here. We're each communicating very clearly about this issue, and we each understand the others' point of view.
I don't think you do. If you believe you are at an impasse and are seeing things in black-and-white, either-or terms, then communication is definitely an issue. You say that you're happy where you are with the exception of having to work hard to make the mortgage. So if that's really the case, then a great compromise is to a smaller, cheaper place in the city you're currently in, thereby being able to cut back on your work while keeping the social support structure in place. Win-win. Of course that only works if you are really listening to your husband and trying to meet him halfway.
posted by headnsouth at 12:50 PM on May 20, 2011 [6 favorites]
To echo what pecanpies echoed of what SuperSquirrel said: Whether intentional or not you have framed this as you exactly getting your way and him.. not getting anything. That's not a successful way to a happy marriage.. I can't say I'd blame him if he was a bit resentful, though it sounds like maybe he just doesn't like the idea of living in the new location.
I feel like a compromised location may be the way to go, but that's just a guess. Why not live close to where he works?
posted by mbatch at 12:50 PM on May 20, 2011
I feel like a compromised location may be the way to go, but that's just a guess. Why not live close to where he works?
posted by mbatch at 12:50 PM on May 20, 2011
Er, meant to italicize paragraphs 1 and 3, as those are the OP's.
posted by headnsouth at 12:50 PM on May 20, 2011
posted by headnsouth at 12:50 PM on May 20, 2011
Your husband might be seeing this as:
posted by scruss at 12:50 PM on May 20, 2011 [4 favorites]
- moving to have a longer commute;
- moving away from nearby friends;
- moving to a house that needs $50k of work;
- removing the security of having two incomes in the household — how secure is his job?
posted by scruss at 12:50 PM on May 20, 2011 [4 favorites]
Is there any chance your company might consider allowing you to work part-time and finding another part-timer to take up the slack? Would you still be able to afford your current house?
Would you consider selling your childhood home in order to be a stay-at-home mom?
posted by Glinn at 12:51 PM on May 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
Would you consider selling your childhood home in order to be a stay-at-home mom?
posted by Glinn at 12:51 PM on May 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
If you been paying on the house for a number of years and you have a lot of equity, is it possible to refinance the new (lower) principle amount to lower your mortgage payments? What about selling the rural house and using that money to pay down the existing house?
posted by cnc at 12:52 PM on May 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by cnc at 12:52 PM on May 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
Well, let's list what each party gets from the suggested move, shall we?
You get:
You're being unreasonable, and the two of you have got a pretty rocky road ahead of you if this is how you're handling disagreements.
posted by Mayor West at 12:58 PM on May 20, 2011 [72 favorites]
You get:
- To move back to a place you have roots and (presumably) friends in
- To move into a house you feel an emotional attachment to
- To stop working and spend more time with your child
- To win the argument
- Not to see his friends anywhere near as often as he does now
- To move into a house that he likes much less than the one he now lives in, which will require $50K worth of work and a ton of labor (translating into to less time with his child)
- To continue working full time, but now as the sole breadwinner for the family
- To lose this argument
You're being unreasonable, and the two of you have got a pretty rocky road ahead of you if this is how you're handling disagreements.
posted by Mayor West at 12:58 PM on May 20, 2011 [72 favorites]
Is the family house vacant now? Do you have full ownership of it? Can you rent it and use the income to ease your current financial stresses? If your kid is going to kindergarten soon, maybe you can figure out a part-time gig and still be there for pickups at the end of the day?
posted by Sublimity at 12:58 PM on May 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by Sublimity at 12:58 PM on May 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
If I was in your shoes, I would want to do exactly what you describe. If I was in your husband's shoes, I would not want to move.
How did you acquire the family home? Was it a gift? Inheritance? Some people feel very weird about taking money/large gifts from their in-laws. Maybe he loves your current house because it's a home you created together as a couple. Going back to your old house, makes it seem more like just your house and not something you built together.
Maybe you can emphasize that you'll be willing to work with the contractors to prepare the house and you'll decide together how you want to update the home to make it both of yours.
posted by parakeetdog at 1:14 PM on May 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
How did you acquire the family home? Was it a gift? Inheritance? Some people feel very weird about taking money/large gifts from their in-laws. Maybe he loves your current house because it's a home you created together as a couple. Going back to your old house, makes it seem more like just your house and not something you built together.
Maybe you can emphasize that you'll be willing to work with the contractors to prepare the house and you'll decide together how you want to update the home to make it both of yours.
posted by parakeetdog at 1:14 PM on May 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
As parents, the responsibility lies in doing what is best for junior. Dad's social life is no longer a priority. It's called growing up. A mom wanting to stay home is not exactly unusual. Hell, I was working 3 jobs for while after our 2nd child was born, so that my wife could stay home with the kids. Yes, mom could do a better job of framing the issue, but dad's list of objections are all fairly selfish - won't be near his buddies and might have to make new friends. Obviously I don't know if there are any other issues in the background, but a father refusing to make some lifestyle changes so that his wife can be a SAHM reeks of immaturity to me. Maybe there is a middle ground, move to cheaper housing in town and mom works part-time, or whatever. But I don't see his position as explained here being defensible. He is a parent now, his desires don't come first.
posted by COD at 1:14 PM on May 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by COD at 1:14 PM on May 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
What if your husband said "You know, I think I'd like to be the SAHD, actually, how about we move to your family home and I stay at home with the kid and fix up the place?"
posted by jeather at 1:18 PM on May 20, 2011 [18 favorites]
posted by jeather at 1:18 PM on May 20, 2011 [18 favorites]
I wouldn't like this deal, either. Maybe to sweeten the pot, you can move back to the other house, and he gets to stay at home? Being the sole breadwinner is a lot of stress in itself.
When I was growing up, I had my dad at home a lot, and it was really great. As COD says, being a parent means the kids come first. Surely that means you can keep working and hubby can stay home, right?
posted by Admiral Haddock at 1:18 PM on May 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
When I was growing up, I had my dad at home a lot, and it was really great. As COD says, being a parent means the kids come first. Surely that means you can keep working and hubby can stay home, right?
posted by Admiral Haddock at 1:18 PM on May 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
You're asking him and your family to make a lot of changes in less than three months. That's a pretty tall order.
What can you compromise on? What is he willing to compromise on?
You say communication is not an issue, but I suspect it is. You've not discussed any other alternative to "Live in House A" or "Live in House B".
What can you live with?
And do you best to really understand his objections. You say you suspect the main reason, but is that really it?
posted by inturnaround at 1:25 PM on May 20, 2011
What can you compromise on? What is he willing to compromise on?
You say communication is not an issue, but I suspect it is. You've not discussed any other alternative to "Live in House A" or "Live in House B".
What can you live with?
And do you best to really understand his objections. You say you suspect the main reason, but is that really it?
posted by inturnaround at 1:25 PM on May 20, 2011
As parents, the responsibility lies in doing what is best for junior.
Seems to me, what's best for Junior is to have parents who know how to compromise with each other, communicate properly and get equal levels of fulfillment from their marriage. Maturity isn't choking down all your needs and a human just to keep your kid's mom at home. There are better, more reasonable solutions here.
posted by spicynuts at 1:27 PM on May 20, 2011 [23 favorites]
Seems to me, what's best for Junior is to have parents who know how to compromise with each other, communicate properly and get equal levels of fulfillment from their marriage. Maturity isn't choking down all your needs and a human just to keep your kid's mom at home. There are better, more reasonable solutions here.
posted by spicynuts at 1:27 PM on May 20, 2011 [23 favorites]
OP It seems like you're tired. It seems like you're running away from something. Quitting work, going to your childhood home and wanting to have your child running through a field of daisies while the super friendly neighbors bring over fresh vegetables and apple cobbler.
How do we decide which of us is the loser here.
As was said, you're both going to lose if larger issues aren't addressed. It almost sounds like life got really rough for you and you're retreating. I would never want to live in the childhood home of my spouse. I don't think most spouses would. You want something that is a place that is both of yours. Your childhood home would just be weird. Having sex there (which it seems like you do since you have a kid), feeling like you want to make new memories there but the house already has all this meaning for you. It just doesn't sound like anything but a recipe for you two to grow distant. And I don't think doing all that is going to get you whatever escape you seem to be seeking.
posted by cashman at 1:27 PM on May 20, 2011 [5 favorites]
How do we decide which of us is the loser here.
As was said, you're both going to lose if larger issues aren't addressed. It almost sounds like life got really rough for you and you're retreating. I would never want to live in the childhood home of my spouse. I don't think most spouses would. You want something that is a place that is both of yours. Your childhood home would just be weird. Having sex there (which it seems like you do since you have a kid), feeling like you want to make new memories there but the house already has all this meaning for you. It just doesn't sound like anything but a recipe for you two to grow distant. And I don't think doing all that is going to get you whatever escape you seem to be seeking.
posted by cashman at 1:27 PM on May 20, 2011 [5 favorites]
While it's true that the parents should put the child first, keep in mind that even if you did move and raised the child in rural bliss, there will be lots of other things that will keep him/her from having the perfect childhood. I don't know a single parent who, even with money, a good marriage etc., hasn't said "oh, there are a million other things I wish I did differently." He could run into a creepy exposer on his way to school anywhere. He could grow up to hate you for raising him in a boring place, as I've seen with a few rural children.
posted by Melismata at 1:32 PM on May 20, 2011
posted by Melismata at 1:32 PM on May 20, 2011
A lot of good points made. Also consider the possibility of breaking this down into separate issues and solutions, instead of trying to do all at once.
Issue 1: You are at the end of your rope at your job
Issue Questions: Is it the people? The company culture? The work itself? The fact that you are working at all because you want more time with the kid?
Potential Resolutions: You get a new job; you get a part time job; Both you and husband get part time jobs; you stop working entirely
Then you go to Issue 2: where/how do we want to live? Once you agree on something there, you go to Issue 3: How can we make this reality? (Sell other house, rent one house, sell both houses, move to other part of town, move to old house, etc.)
The idea being to come up with a solution you are both happy with and then scale it back/compromise as necessary as you work out the details (well, we both wanted to work 20 hrs a week, but maybe one of us has to work 25 hours a week; ok, this side of town is a bit more affordable, etc.)
posted by mikepop at 1:32 PM on May 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
Issue 1: You are at the end of your rope at your job
Issue Questions: Is it the people? The company culture? The work itself? The fact that you are working at all because you want more time with the kid?
Potential Resolutions: You get a new job; you get a part time job; Both you and husband get part time jobs; you stop working entirely
Then you go to Issue 2: where/how do we want to live? Once you agree on something there, you go to Issue 3: How can we make this reality? (Sell other house, rent one house, sell both houses, move to other part of town, move to old house, etc.)
The idea being to come up with a solution you are both happy with and then scale it back/compromise as necessary as you work out the details (well, we both wanted to work 20 hrs a week, but maybe one of us has to work 25 hours a week; ok, this side of town is a bit more affordable, etc.)
posted by mikepop at 1:32 PM on May 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
a father refusing to make some lifestyle changes so that his wife can be a SAHM reeks of immaturity to me. Maybe there is a middle ground, move to cheaper housing in town and mom works part-time, or whatever. But I don't see his position as explained here being defensible. He is a parent now, his desires don't come first.
Uh, maybe he's worried about the economy? Or worried about losing his job? That's not immaturity in the slightest to be worried about no longer having your spouse as financial backup these days.
I think there's going to have to be some kind of compromise here. I think you getting a part time job might be the best solution for the job burnout/kid issue (if the kid is in school half of the day, you could do that), and make him less freaked about being the only breadwinner.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:34 PM on May 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
Uh, maybe he's worried about the economy? Or worried about losing his job? That's not immaturity in the slightest to be worried about no longer having your spouse as financial backup these days.
I think there's going to have to be some kind of compromise here. I think you getting a part time job might be the best solution for the job burnout/kid issue (if the kid is in school half of the day, you could do that), and make him less freaked about being the only breadwinner.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:34 PM on May 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
If your kid is starting kindergarten this fall, you would be facing being a stay at home mom with no kid at home most of the day in a year or so anyway, unless you're planning on having more children. Could you compromise by looking for a less expensive home with your husband, that isn't as far out in the boonies, and finding a part time job? You could work while your kid is in school and be there for him afterwards.
posted by MadamM at 1:40 PM on May 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by MadamM at 1:40 PM on May 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
You're making the same mistake that a lot of folks make when they decide to "stay together for the kids." They, and you, are projecting your own wishes onto the best-interests of your child in an attempt to justify the desired outcome. Don't use your kid like that. It makes your kid a pawn. Your husband, on the other hand, is just clearly stating his personal opposition to this plan.
posted by jph at 1:41 PM on May 20, 2011 [16 favorites]
posted by jph at 1:41 PM on May 20, 2011 [16 favorites]
My family moved from the city to a more rural area when I was in the 2nd grade. So later than your kid, but I wanted to share my experience anyway.
Positives: yes, we played in the woods and creeks and spent lots of time outdoors. Many days building forts, digging holes, and trying to damn up water. We had lots of pets (dogs, cats, rabbits, pigeons, etc) but we had some of those in the city too so I'm not sure it's a clear benefit to being rural. All of this was lots of fun.
Negatives: as a kid, it was harder to play with friends. There were a few kids nearby, but I wasn't always friendly with them. We'd have to setup play dates with friends from before I moved and the kids from school (which remained the same because I went to Catholic grade school) who all lived in the city. And I couldn't ride my bike anywhere other than up and down the short street because the only other road was a busy rural route (also, an omnipresent worry for the animals). In the city I had a huge range with my bike and it was perfectly safe: I could play on various playgrounds, ride around various hills, ride to the youth center, get snacks at the gas station, etc. I had more freedom.
Also, I hated hated HATED running errands with mom. Mom is great (love you, Mom), but everywhere we needed to go was 20+ minutes away. So we tended to save all our "trips to the city" for one day. And as a kid, spending your entire day grocery shopping, laundromat, getting your hair cut, running to the bank, clothes shopping, so-on-and-so-forth is murder. Mom used to lie to us and tell us "we're almost done" but we quickly caught on to that one.
In addition, it wasn't until just a year ago that my parents got anything better than dialup internet. Even growing up, while the internet was just being adopted, I was lucky to get speeds better than 24.4kbps while all my friends were getting 56.6kpbs or (gasp) DSL. I think that in the modern world not having a decent internet connection is a major disadvantage (although the situation for rural users has greatly improved; but something to consider).
Given the chance, would I change anything? Probably not. But as a kid it wasn't all fun and games.
posted by sbutler at 1:49 PM on May 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
Positives: yes, we played in the woods and creeks and spent lots of time outdoors. Many days building forts, digging holes, and trying to damn up water. We had lots of pets (dogs, cats, rabbits, pigeons, etc) but we had some of those in the city too so I'm not sure it's a clear benefit to being rural. All of this was lots of fun.
Negatives: as a kid, it was harder to play with friends. There were a few kids nearby, but I wasn't always friendly with them. We'd have to setup play dates with friends from before I moved and the kids from school (which remained the same because I went to Catholic grade school) who all lived in the city. And I couldn't ride my bike anywhere other than up and down the short street because the only other road was a busy rural route (also, an omnipresent worry for the animals). In the city I had a huge range with my bike and it was perfectly safe: I could play on various playgrounds, ride around various hills, ride to the youth center, get snacks at the gas station, etc. I had more freedom.
Also, I hated hated HATED running errands with mom. Mom is great (love you, Mom), but everywhere we needed to go was 20+ minutes away. So we tended to save all our "trips to the city" for one day. And as a kid, spending your entire day grocery shopping, laundromat, getting your hair cut, running to the bank, clothes shopping, so-on-and-so-forth is murder. Mom used to lie to us and tell us "we're almost done" but we quickly caught on to that one.
In addition, it wasn't until just a year ago that my parents got anything better than dialup internet. Even growing up, while the internet was just being adopted, I was lucky to get speeds better than 24.4kbps while all my friends were getting 56.6kpbs or (gasp) DSL. I think that in the modern world not having a decent internet connection is a major disadvantage (although the situation for rural users has greatly improved; but something to consider).
Given the chance, would I change anything? Probably not. But as a kid it wasn't all fun and games.
posted by sbutler at 1:49 PM on May 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
This--a father refusing to make some lifestyle changes so that his wife can be a SAHM reeks of immaturity to me.--is sexist. There's no rule of family that says the instant a mother wants to stay at home, Dad needs to hop to and make it happen. Mom and Dad are partners. Co-parents. Mom staying home might be the best option for the family, but that's not a given. It is absolutely not selfish or immature for Dad to balk at the proposed sudden, drastic change in plans.
posted by Meg_Murry at 1:50 PM on May 20, 2011 [40 favorites]
posted by Meg_Murry at 1:50 PM on May 20, 2011 [40 favorites]
Also, this was a positive for me/negative for mom: getting to school on bad weather days was much more difficult and sometimes impossible. My mom's attitude has always been "if school is in session, you're going!" But at times the winter weather made it really treacherous, and we had to skip. I'm sure that really bothered her but I thought it was great :)
posted by sbutler at 1:51 PM on May 20, 2011
posted by sbutler at 1:51 PM on May 20, 2011
So if this is a wellness issue for you, and he flatly refuses your suggestion for fixing the problem, what is HIS suggestion?
The problem appears to be that the husband also considers it a "wellness" issue, and that doing what OP suggests would be harmful to his wellness.
posted by Justinian at 1:52 PM on May 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
The problem appears to be that the husband also considers it a "wellness" issue, and that doing what OP suggests would be harmful to his wellness.
posted by Justinian at 1:52 PM on May 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
First: anyone who is framing being a SAHM as "not working" is ...crazy. I promise you: you will be working harder than ever, and your little rugrats will not even care until they have kids of their own and finally get what you did for them. (I still love being home with my 3, though.)
Second, since being a SAHM/WAHM is important to you (and recognizing that you will never, ever get these years back with your young child, and time is of the essence) can you compromise a little?
- if money is the main issue, explore work-at-home or contract options that allow you to work partly from home and partly in the office. This can be what you do now, only modified. Or something totally new, which may mean you need ramping up time to get good at it and make money that is meaningful to you. Live frugally now.
- if worry is the problem, run the numbers a few times and look at possible kinks. Like not selling your current house. Or repairs on the other one being much higher. Or what happens if being at home turns out not to be as fun as you thought -- can you get a job again as easily as you may need to? Look at the dependencies and if-thens, and make contingency plans.
- if it's about fear of losing friends, can you make some in your new place now? Can you put old friends on the calendar for visits? Can you plan trips back into town every couple of weeks or so, like a regular date night?
- can you say "let's just try this for X years"? or work out compromises as others have suggested?
- I would also say you need to talk to other moms who have stayed home, or gone back to work after staying home. Get what worked for them or didn't.
posted by mdiskin at 1:54 PM on May 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
Second, since being a SAHM/WAHM is important to you (and recognizing that you will never, ever get these years back with your young child, and time is of the essence) can you compromise a little?
- if money is the main issue, explore work-at-home or contract options that allow you to work partly from home and partly in the office. This can be what you do now, only modified. Or something totally new, which may mean you need ramping up time to get good at it and make money that is meaningful to you. Live frugally now.
- if worry is the problem, run the numbers a few times and look at possible kinks. Like not selling your current house. Or repairs on the other one being much higher. Or what happens if being at home turns out not to be as fun as you thought -- can you get a job again as easily as you may need to? Look at the dependencies and if-thens, and make contingency plans.
- if it's about fear of losing friends, can you make some in your new place now? Can you put old friends on the calendar for visits? Can you plan trips back into town every couple of weeks or so, like a regular date night?
- can you say "let's just try this for X years"? or work out compromises as others have suggested?
- I would also say you need to talk to other moms who have stayed home, or gone back to work after staying home. Get what worked for them or didn't.
posted by mdiskin at 1:54 PM on May 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
a father refusing to make some lifestyle changes so that his wife can be a SAHM reeks of immaturity to me.
WTF?
He is a parent now, his desires don't come first.
EXACTLY, which is why as the Dad in a two-income family, I'd be pretty seriously concerned if my wife came to me with a plan to significantly cut our income and disrupt our kids' lives on the basis of a couple of hopeful predictions. That's not to say I wouldn't bend over backwards to help create a situation that made her happy and worked for the rest of the family, but to call out the Dad as immature in this situation is ridiculous.
posted by jalexei at 1:55 PM on May 20, 2011 [10 favorites]
WTF?
He is a parent now, his desires don't come first.
EXACTLY, which is why as the Dad in a two-income family, I'd be pretty seriously concerned if my wife came to me with a plan to significantly cut our income and disrupt our kids' lives on the basis of a couple of hopeful predictions. That's not to say I wouldn't bend over backwards to help create a situation that made her happy and worked for the rest of the family, but to call out the Dad as immature in this situation is ridiculous.
posted by jalexei at 1:55 PM on May 20, 2011 [10 favorites]
"You need to get on board with this plan" is something you tell a child or an employee. Your husband is your partner, and this plan has pretty serious drawbacks for him. You need to reframe your stance and consider other options.
posted by Bebo at 1:58 PM on May 20, 2011
posted by Bebo at 1:58 PM on May 20, 2011
//It is absolutely not selfish or immature for Dad to balk at the proposed sudden, drastic change in plans.//
Giving the benefit of the doubt to the OP that we are getting the whole story, her husband doesn't seem to be worried about finances. He is worried about his social life. That is the very definition of immature.
posted by COD at 2:00 PM on May 20, 2011
Giving the benefit of the doubt to the OP that we are getting the whole story, her husband doesn't seem to be worried about finances. He is worried about his social life. That is the very definition of immature.
posted by COD at 2:00 PM on May 20, 2011
Yeah, this is kind of bizarre, the way you talk about it as if there are only two options that exist, one where you are miserable and one where he is miserable. "How do you make a choice when one spouse will end up unhappy no matter what?" Seriously?
The way to make this choice is that you both talk about what things are most important to you, and what things are important but not-as-important, and then you work together as a team to be creative about finding ways that you can both be reasonably happy and neither of you is miserable although each of you may have to make some sacrifices.
People have mentioned a lot of ways to do that already, and I'm sure the two of you can come up with more, but here's some more-- how much is rent in your area compared to what you're paying on your mortgage? If you sold your house and rented a place in or near your current city, could you afford to do it on your husband's salary so you can be a stay-at-home mom? Or would you be willing to use some of the $200K profit to help you pay that rent? Are there nice areas in or near the city that would have the environment you want for your kid? If those nice places are too expensive to afford on your husband's salary alone, are you willing to work part-time or even full-time (at a new job where you're not miserable) to give your child that environment?
You guys are supposed to be a team. That means that the way for you to "win" at this is not by getting everything you want-- it's by getting the solution that may involve some sacrifices for you but overall makes you happiest as a family.
posted by EmilyClimbs at 2:01 PM on May 20, 2011
The way to make this choice is that you both talk about what things are most important to you, and what things are important but not-as-important, and then you work together as a team to be creative about finding ways that you can both be reasonably happy and neither of you is miserable although each of you may have to make some sacrifices.
People have mentioned a lot of ways to do that already, and I'm sure the two of you can come up with more, but here's some more-- how much is rent in your area compared to what you're paying on your mortgage? If you sold your house and rented a place in or near your current city, could you afford to do it on your husband's salary so you can be a stay-at-home mom? Or would you be willing to use some of the $200K profit to help you pay that rent? Are there nice areas in or near the city that would have the environment you want for your kid? If those nice places are too expensive to afford on your husband's salary alone, are you willing to work part-time or even full-time (at a new job where you're not miserable) to give your child that environment?
You guys are supposed to be a team. That means that the way for you to "win" at this is not by getting everything you want-- it's by getting the solution that may involve some sacrifices for you but overall makes you happiest as a family.
posted by EmilyClimbs at 2:01 PM on May 20, 2011
I want our child to have the same kind of idyllic, free-range, playing in the creek and climbing trees childhood that I had.
But that might not be possible, even in the same setting. Is that the sort of world your child would thrive in? I grew up that way, but neither of my children would have particuarly enjoyed it.
Where are the schools better? Moving away from friends, esp. with little kids, is a problem for me--who are your child's pals going to be in the rural world? Who are you going to talk to when the kid's in school?
I'd sell them both or rent out one, and move to a cheaper house. Losing the equity in the one you live in now, assuming you have any, could be a problem too.
posted by Ideefixe at 2:03 PM on May 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
But that might not be possible, even in the same setting. Is that the sort of world your child would thrive in? I grew up that way, but neither of my children would have particuarly enjoyed it.
Where are the schools better? Moving away from friends, esp. with little kids, is a problem for me--who are your child's pals going to be in the rural world? Who are you going to talk to when the kid's in school?
I'd sell them both or rent out one, and move to a cheaper house. Losing the equity in the one you live in now, assuming you have any, could be a problem too.
posted by Ideefixe at 2:03 PM on May 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
How do you make a choice when one spouse will end up unhappy no matter what?
That is no way to run a marriage. You need to drop that attitude/line of thought right now. Seriously. If you're spending the rest of your lives together, you need to be doing things that make you both happy.
Honestly, if that's the way you or ya'll are thinking about this, you definitely need to go to therapy. You need to be happy. He needs to be happy. If that happens, it's almost guaranteed that the kid will be happy.
Giving the benefit of the doubt to the OP that we are getting the whole story, her husband doesn't seem to be worried about finances. He is worried about his social life. That is the very definition of immature.
That's silly. Parents need to be happy, need relationships outside of the house, need their own friends. Forcing him to move away from that is not healthy at all. Forcing the child to do the same isn't healthy. The only thing I'm hearing from the OP is how awesome it would be for her. That sounds incredibly selfish.
I want our child to have the same kind of idyllic, free-range, playing in the creek and climbing trees childhood that I had.
Does this sound appealing at all to the child? Some would love it, others would go out of their mind and find the quickest route to sex, drugs and rock roll just to relieve their boredom.
Sell the family house, doe something smart with the money, move to half an hour away and work parttime.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:08 PM on May 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
That is no way to run a marriage. You need to drop that attitude/line of thought right now. Seriously. If you're spending the rest of your lives together, you need to be doing things that make you both happy.
Honestly, if that's the way you or ya'll are thinking about this, you definitely need to go to therapy. You need to be happy. He needs to be happy. If that happens, it's almost guaranteed that the kid will be happy.
Giving the benefit of the doubt to the OP that we are getting the whole story, her husband doesn't seem to be worried about finances. He is worried about his social life. That is the very definition of immature.
That's silly. Parents need to be happy, need relationships outside of the house, need their own friends. Forcing him to move away from that is not healthy at all. Forcing the child to do the same isn't healthy. The only thing I'm hearing from the OP is how awesome it would be for her. That sounds incredibly selfish.
I want our child to have the same kind of idyllic, free-range, playing in the creek and climbing trees childhood that I had.
Does this sound appealing at all to the child? Some would love it, others would go out of their mind and find the quickest route to sex, drugs and rock roll just to relieve their boredom.
Sell the family house, doe something smart with the money, move to half an hour away and work parttime.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:08 PM on May 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
her husband doesn't seem to be worried about finances. He is worried about his social life. That is the very definition of immature.
Even if this framing were accurate, how is it immature to want a healthy social life? Staring at each other for months on end = The Shining.
posted by yerfatma at 2:15 PM on May 20, 2011 [17 favorites]
Even if this framing were accurate, how is it immature to want a healthy social life? Staring at each other for months on end = The Shining.
posted by yerfatma at 2:15 PM on May 20, 2011 [17 favorites]
Giving the benefit of the doubt to the OP that we are getting the whole story, her husband doesn't seem to be worried about finances. He is worried about his social life. That is the very definition of immature.\
First, the OP admits that she doesn't actually know what her husband's main objections are, she only "suspects" that it's about his social life. And second, I would submit that wanting to live in a city because one has built a life and a community there is no more "immature" than wanting to uproot one's entire family because one doesn't want to work anymore. However, I don't think that either of them is being immature. A little short-sighted maybe, but it sounds as though each of them has a vision of what would be best for the family, and the problem is that those two visions don't match up.
I would suggest that each of you, by yourselves, make a list of the factors that are most important to you in the next phase of your life. Wanting to stay home with the kid would be a factor on your list, as would be getting out of your crappy job, living in the country, and being financially stable. Your husband's list might contain items like living near close friends and having a house he really loves. You might also be surprised to find out that your husband's list contains things you hadn't considered, like feeling secure at having multiple income streams, or wanting his kid to have an exciting city childhood, or even things that no one here has proposed as considerations. Maybe he wants to stay home with the kid someday. Maybe he has a secret dream of starting his own business or taking a year off for your family to travel around the world. We don't know what he wants, but more importantly, it sounds as though you don't actually know what he wants.
Each of you should rank the items on your list from most to least important. Then, see where you are. Are there items at the tops of the list in direct conflicts (e.g., he's a city mouse and you're a country mouse)? Are there things you have in common, such as wanting to be financially stable, but that you've taken different approaches to? Are there things you agree are important? What things are each of you willing to compromise on?
Once you have a sense of what's really important to each of you, you'll be able to look at a range of solutions to satisfy the factors that are most important to both of you. That may include your childhood house, but it may not. It may include you staying home, or it may not. It may include moving to China or buying a ski chalet or opening a consulting firm or something else that hasn't occurred to either of you as an option yet because you're only considering these two options. Try not to be wedded to any one vision of your future until you understand what it is you're both really looking for in this next phase of your life together.
posted by decathecting at 2:17 PM on May 20, 2011 [4 favorites]
First, the OP admits that she doesn't actually know what her husband's main objections are, she only "suspects" that it's about his social life. And second, I would submit that wanting to live in a city because one has built a life and a community there is no more "immature" than wanting to uproot one's entire family because one doesn't want to work anymore. However, I don't think that either of them is being immature. A little short-sighted maybe, but it sounds as though each of them has a vision of what would be best for the family, and the problem is that those two visions don't match up.
I would suggest that each of you, by yourselves, make a list of the factors that are most important to you in the next phase of your life. Wanting to stay home with the kid would be a factor on your list, as would be getting out of your crappy job, living in the country, and being financially stable. Your husband's list might contain items like living near close friends and having a house he really loves. You might also be surprised to find out that your husband's list contains things you hadn't considered, like feeling secure at having multiple income streams, or wanting his kid to have an exciting city childhood, or even things that no one here has proposed as considerations. Maybe he wants to stay home with the kid someday. Maybe he has a secret dream of starting his own business or taking a year off for your family to travel around the world. We don't know what he wants, but more importantly, it sounds as though you don't actually know what he wants.
Each of you should rank the items on your list from most to least important. Then, see where you are. Are there items at the tops of the list in direct conflicts (e.g., he's a city mouse and you're a country mouse)? Are there things you have in common, such as wanting to be financially stable, but that you've taken different approaches to? Are there things you agree are important? What things are each of you willing to compromise on?
Once you have a sense of what's really important to each of you, you'll be able to look at a range of solutions to satisfy the factors that are most important to both of you. That may include your childhood house, but it may not. It may include you staying home, or it may not. It may include moving to China or buying a ski chalet or opening a consulting firm or something else that hasn't occurred to either of you as an option yet because you're only considering these two options. Try not to be wedded to any one vision of your future until you understand what it is you're both really looking for in this next phase of your life together.
posted by decathecting at 2:17 PM on May 20, 2011 [4 favorites]
He is worried about his social life. That is the very definition of immature.
No, it's not. And even if it was, the OP actually said "He also feels it will be problematic for us to be an hour away from our core group of friends" - You can choose to reduce that to "social life", I nor my wife never would.
posted by jalexei at 2:30 PM on May 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
No, it's not. And even if it was, the OP actually said "He also feels it will be problematic for us to be an hour away from our core group of friends" - You can choose to reduce that to "social life", I nor my wife never would.
posted by jalexei at 2:30 PM on May 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
I've never been married or had a kid, so take my advice with a grain of salt, but...
... it sounds like you really like the idea of being a SAHM, and living in a different environment. It sounds like he doesn't want to be far from the city or your friends, so...
... is there any way you could stay in the same general area, but move to a less-expensive house in a neighborhood that would be more like what you're looking for? Maybe a smaller house (that you could afford on one income), in a neighborhood that isn't necessarily rural, but maybe closer to nature & trees?
What I'm trying to say is that you're making it sound like it's a problem of House A vs. House B, when maybe it's actually a problem of Lifestyle A vs. Lifestyle B, and maybe you could find a House C that would suit both Lifestyle A and Lifestyle B.
posted by Afroblanco at 2:33 PM on May 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
... it sounds like you really like the idea of being a SAHM, and living in a different environment. It sounds like he doesn't want to be far from the city or your friends, so...
... is there any way you could stay in the same general area, but move to a less-expensive house in a neighborhood that would be more like what you're looking for? Maybe a smaller house (that you could afford on one income), in a neighborhood that isn't necessarily rural, but maybe closer to nature & trees?
What I'm trying to say is that you're making it sound like it's a problem of House A vs. House B, when maybe it's actually a problem of Lifestyle A vs. Lifestyle B, and maybe you could find a House C that would suit both Lifestyle A and Lifestyle B.
posted by Afroblanco at 2:33 PM on May 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
Like many others here, I'm not really convinced that the scenario you want is better for your child. I'm sure that the worst thing for your child is to have you or your husband miserable or resentful about your life circumstances. So you need to knock off the win/lose scenario, and the idea that one of you is going to get everything they want and the other is going to get nothing.
Trust me that this isn't a therapy-worthy issue.
This particular decision? Maybe not. The way you're approaching it? Definitely is.
posted by grouse at 2:44 PM on May 20, 2011 [5 favorites]
Trust me that this isn't a therapy-worthy issue.
This particular decision? Maybe not. The way you're approaching it? Definitely is.
posted by grouse at 2:44 PM on May 20, 2011 [5 favorites]
because I want our child to have the same kind of idyllic, free-range, playing in the creek and climbing trees childhood that I had.
What does your husband want for your child? Have you discussed what your shared vision for your kids' ideal childhood is? Your ideal family life? I grew up in a small town, and a lot of it was nice, but I wish I had had a little more exposure to 'city culture' as well - I grew up 30 minutes away from a large city that I still don't know my way around very well.
There are other ways to make sure your child gets the kind of atmosphere you describe - do you have relatives that live in rural areas? Could you commit to visiting rural parks/hiking in your area often? Going on a long camping trip every summer?
posted by nakedmolerats at 2:52 PM on May 20, 2011
What does your husband want for your child? Have you discussed what your shared vision for your kids' ideal childhood is? Your ideal family life? I grew up in a small town, and a lot of it was nice, but I wish I had had a little more exposure to 'city culture' as well - I grew up 30 minutes away from a large city that I still don't know my way around very well.
There are other ways to make sure your child gets the kind of atmosphere you describe - do you have relatives that live in rural areas? Could you commit to visiting rural parks/hiking in your area often? Going on a long camping trip every summer?
posted by nakedmolerats at 2:52 PM on May 20, 2011
Let's say you win. Let's say in 2 years your marriage is ruined. Can you support that idyllic, free-range, playing in the creek childhood as a single parent thrown back in the workforce?
posted by cyndigo at 3:09 PM on May 20, 2011 [8 favorites]
posted by cyndigo at 3:09 PM on May 20, 2011 [8 favorites]
You cannot force another person to do something against their will.
So it looks like you will lose, since you have constructed the situation in terms of winner and loser.
posted by Ironmouth at 3:48 PM on May 20, 2011
So it looks like you will lose, since you have constructed the situation in terms of winner and loser.
posted by Ironmouth at 3:48 PM on May 20, 2011
One of us needs to be unhappy about this. How do we decide which of us is the loser here.
As long as you frame it like this, in which you are on opposing teams, there is no solution. Ever. Doesn't matter how great your communication is.
When you decide you are both on the same side, playing for the same team, only then can you win AS A FAMILY. I don't know what the solution will be, but that's the only place where a healthy solution will be found.
posted by scody at 4:33 PM on May 20, 2011 [3 favorites]
As long as you frame it like this, in which you are on opposing teams, there is no solution. Ever. Doesn't matter how great your communication is.
When you decide you are both on the same side, playing for the same team, only then can you win AS A FAMILY. I don't know what the solution will be, but that's the only place where a healthy solution will be found.
posted by scody at 4:33 PM on May 20, 2011 [3 favorites]
You need to look harder for a compromise that allows some of each of your needs to be met. Picking a winner and a loser isn't an approach that will work well, I don't think.
posted by J. Wilson at 4:59 PM on May 20, 2011
posted by J. Wilson at 4:59 PM on May 20, 2011
He is a parent now, his desires don't come first.
There's a word for people who always put their child's needs ahead of their own needs or those of the relationship, and that word is "divorced".
Coincidentally, we also use that word for people who routinely engage in the sort of relationship brinkmanship that's being described by the original poster. Above I wrote that "I don't have the right answer", but on reflection it is clear that the right answer is to do the exact opposite of what the OP wants. Chlldren should have their own childhood, not some fabrication concocted from their mother's memories after she's fled back to her childhood home. That's just creepy. The OP's husband is being entirely reasonable in not wanting to suddenly get taken away from his social network and saddled with an extra $50K in debt and labor as the sole breadwinner, and the fact that the OP is actually threatening him with her own and her children's well-being is further evidence that she's entirely in the wrong.
OP: Sell your parent's house. Use that money to fund quitting your job to look for something better, spend the time you're not at work with your kids and get yourself some therapy.
posted by mhoye at 5:17 PM on May 20, 2011 [14 favorites]
There's a word for people who always put their child's needs ahead of their own needs or those of the relationship, and that word is "divorced".
Coincidentally, we also use that word for people who routinely engage in the sort of relationship brinkmanship that's being described by the original poster. Above I wrote that "I don't have the right answer", but on reflection it is clear that the right answer is to do the exact opposite of what the OP wants. Chlldren should have their own childhood, not some fabrication concocted from their mother's memories after she's fled back to her childhood home. That's just creepy. The OP's husband is being entirely reasonable in not wanting to suddenly get taken away from his social network and saddled with an extra $50K in debt and labor as the sole breadwinner, and the fact that the OP is actually threatening him with her own and her children's well-being is further evidence that she's entirely in the wrong.
OP: Sell your parent's house. Use that money to fund quitting your job to look for something better, spend the time you're not at work with your kids and get yourself some therapy.
posted by mhoye at 5:17 PM on May 20, 2011 [14 favorites]
I want our child to have the same kind of idyllic, free-range, playing in the creek and climbing trees childhood that I had.
Your child will never have your childhood. Never. The country is different, you're different, your child is a different person. Nothing you do will replicate that experience in your child.
I do know where you are coming from: I grew up in the country, I didn't even drink milk out of a carton at home until I was a teenager, and I love love loved my rural, freerange childhood - wouldn't trade it for the world.
Yet I'm expecting my first child in a few months, in our two bedroom apartment in the middle of a city of six million people. It literally couldn't be more different from my childhood. And you know what? That's okay. My partner grew up in the city, and she love love loved her childhood, too.
Kids are adaptable, and generally happy. There are lots of things they'll like, and to be honest, it sounds like your reasons are more about you than what's necessary to give your kid a life.
My sister still lives in our home town. Every time I go back, I marvel at the sheer ubiquity of life up there. What I don't miss, however, are the gossipy and narrow-minded community; the complete dearth of decent restaurants and cheap coffee; the huge fuel costs they endure every week; the necessity of having to drive everywhere, the almost total cultural homogeneity and resulting lack of great ethnic restaurants, stores etc; the lack of choice they have regarding schools, teachers, hobbies their kids can indulge in. And so on.
Running through the paddocks is great, but there are lots of other things a child can enjoy. Don't take such a do-or-die attitude trying to recapture a horizon your child will never be able to view.
posted by smoke at 5:24 PM on May 20, 2011 [13 favorites]
Your child will never have your childhood. Never. The country is different, you're different, your child is a different person. Nothing you do will replicate that experience in your child.
I do know where you are coming from: I grew up in the country, I didn't even drink milk out of a carton at home until I was a teenager, and I love love loved my rural, freerange childhood - wouldn't trade it for the world.
Yet I'm expecting my first child in a few months, in our two bedroom apartment in the middle of a city of six million people. It literally couldn't be more different from my childhood. And you know what? That's okay. My partner grew up in the city, and she love love loved her childhood, too.
Kids are adaptable, and generally happy. There are lots of things they'll like, and to be honest, it sounds like your reasons are more about you than what's necessary to give your kid a life.
My sister still lives in our home town. Every time I go back, I marvel at the sheer ubiquity of life up there. What I don't miss, however, are the gossipy and narrow-minded community; the complete dearth of decent restaurants and cheap coffee; the huge fuel costs they endure every week; the necessity of having to drive everywhere, the almost total cultural homogeneity and resulting lack of great ethnic restaurants, stores etc; the lack of choice they have regarding schools, teachers, hobbies their kids can indulge in. And so on.
Running through the paddocks is great, but there are lots of other things a child can enjoy. Don't take such a do-or-die attitude trying to recapture a horizon your child will never be able to view.
posted by smoke at 5:24 PM on May 20, 2011 [13 favorites]
I have to agree with sbutler that a rural childhood is not always idyllic. I grew up in the sticks and always resented being so far away from everything. Even though we had a creek and a forest and several fruit trees and it did give me an appreciation for nature that I wouldn't have developed living right in the middle of the city, having to be driven anywhere I needed to go for the first 17 years of my life was a constant source of frustration. Also there were poisonous snakes everywhere and part of the house was infested with scorpions and these things. You might not have those specific problems, though.
One thing you haven't mentioned is whether you own your parents' house or whether they still own it. If this move means him giving up the independence of owning his (and your) own home and moving to a place owned by his in-laws, his resistance makes even more sense.
posted by A Thousand Baited Hooks at 5:34 PM on May 20, 2011
One thing you haven't mentioned is whether you own your parents' house or whether they still own it. If this move means him giving up the independence of owning his (and your) own home and moving to a place owned by his in-laws, his resistance makes even more sense.
posted by A Thousand Baited Hooks at 5:34 PM on May 20, 2011
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're the breadwinner here and have been these past years? (I feel like you're leaving a lot out here.) It sounds like he is content with the status quo, but you are not, and have not been for quite some time. What has he sacrificed, what has changed in his life, since you've had your child? What have you sacrificed? Is it fair for you to work long hours at a stressful job simply to pay for a house, maintain the status quo, and not have time to spend with your child? That would be a situation well out of balance. I echo what someone said above - it sounds like you're running from something - you want an escape. Your current life and your ideal life seem so opposite from each other.
I agree that the framing of THIS or THAT and "someone needs to be unhappy/who is going to be the loser" is not going to get you anywhere. Also I agree that your "stay-at-home mom" window is closing if your child is approaching school-age; I'm not saying that being a stay-at-home mother isn't full-time work, it certainly is, but with one child and that child being in school most of the day, you're not going to get the full advantage of the extra time pretty soon. And a rural life may sound idyllic, but can be quite isolating for both adults and children. It would suck to push for such a big move and have it fall apart because you only thought about the ideal parts of it and not all the practical parts. I can understand your husband's reluctance there.
Surely there are compromises here. If time is your need (getting some stay-at-home parenting while your child is still young) can you not try your plan for a year or two, rent out your current house in the meantime, then re-evaluate? If socializing is his need, can you negotiate a couple nights a week that he spends back in town with his friends? Can you sell the house you have and buy something more affordable that doesn't require you to have a high-pressure job? Can you spend weekends at the family house in the country if you downsize your life in town? Would he accept this as a year's sabbatical for you, letting you try something different, but not locking him in permanently?
I do think you need to approach this as "something has to give, what can we re-work here" rather than "either you're happy or I'm happy, two options, that's it". Surely your husband is concerned for your happiness and wants you to be happier, so even if he is not pleased with your ideal solution he should be willing to help figure out a way that you can get more time at home with your child - a house requiring less money/upkeep - a job that doesn't stress you out as much, etc. There's plenty of room for improvement there.
And what hermitosis said. If your husband isn't on board with your solution - what's HIS suggestion? Are you too set on this one option, all or nothing?
posted by flex at 5:37 PM on May 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
I agree that the framing of THIS or THAT and "someone needs to be unhappy/who is going to be the loser" is not going to get you anywhere. Also I agree that your "stay-at-home mom" window is closing if your child is approaching school-age; I'm not saying that being a stay-at-home mother isn't full-time work, it certainly is, but with one child and that child being in school most of the day, you're not going to get the full advantage of the extra time pretty soon. And a rural life may sound idyllic, but can be quite isolating for both adults and children. It would suck to push for such a big move and have it fall apart because you only thought about the ideal parts of it and not all the practical parts. I can understand your husband's reluctance there.
Surely there are compromises here. If time is your need (getting some stay-at-home parenting while your child is still young) can you not try your plan for a year or two, rent out your current house in the meantime, then re-evaluate? If socializing is his need, can you negotiate a couple nights a week that he spends back in town with his friends? Can you sell the house you have and buy something more affordable that doesn't require you to have a high-pressure job? Can you spend weekends at the family house in the country if you downsize your life in town? Would he accept this as a year's sabbatical for you, letting you try something different, but not locking him in permanently?
I do think you need to approach this as "something has to give, what can we re-work here" rather than "either you're happy or I'm happy, two options, that's it". Surely your husband is concerned for your happiness and wants you to be happier, so even if he is not pleased with your ideal solution he should be willing to help figure out a way that you can get more time at home with your child - a house requiring less money/upkeep - a job that doesn't stress you out as much, etc. There's plenty of room for improvement there.
And what hermitosis said. If your husband isn't on board with your solution - what's HIS suggestion? Are you too set on this one option, all or nothing?
posted by flex at 5:37 PM on May 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
Seems there is some undisclosed thing here, some pressure driving you to frame this situation in an unreasonable, aggressive, escapist way. Is it suspicion? Guilt? Afraid of something being uncovered? Seems that way, as anything but therapy is on the table, and you clearly reached in order to tie therapy with the idea of splitting up. Maybe therapy just for you to help understand what this is all about? Or do you know already? Math isn't right the way you've told the story.
posted by jimmysmits at 6:06 PM on May 20, 2011
posted by jimmysmits at 6:06 PM on May 20, 2011
Plus, every couple we've ever known who has gone to therapy - even just to "make the relationship stronger' has ended up splitting up
Um, I've been in couples therapy and my S/O and I haven't split up. In fact we're now engaged. Check yourself before you wreck yourself.
posted by Rocket26 at 6:31 PM on May 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
Um, I've been in couples therapy and my S/O and I haven't split up. In fact we're now engaged. Check yourself before you wreck yourself.
posted by Rocket26 at 6:31 PM on May 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
I agree with the people upthread who suggest there must be a third, agreeable option out there that you aren't considering.
Being burned out at work, feeling like you're just feeding the mortgage monster, missing your kid -- those are all pretty understandable reasons for wanting to make a change.
Consider the reality that moving out to your family place is completely off the table, it's a non-starter, that dog won't hunt, etc. etc. Why? Because even if you were getting your family place for free, the real cost in moving would be dragging along one very unwilling participant. And you know this. And you still want to do it. (Why!?) Compromises aren't like debts that you build up and pay off. If you have a deep seated feeling that your life has turned into one giant compromise and now your husband owes you the same...you can see why that will fail, right?
Is it possible to frame your desires in a way that leaves more options open? Options that would be amenable to your husband, who also deserves a say in his living conditions and happiness. Focus on your need to slow down your work, maybe ease up on your hours outside the home, your willingness to cut back and make sacrifices to have that, even if it means finding a more affordable place that you BOTH can agree upon, which might not be 100% what either of you want, but enough of both that the resulting happiness was worth it.
posted by contessa at 6:32 PM on May 20, 2011
Being burned out at work, feeling like you're just feeding the mortgage monster, missing your kid -- those are all pretty understandable reasons for wanting to make a change.
Consider the reality that moving out to your family place is completely off the table, it's a non-starter, that dog won't hunt, etc. etc. Why? Because even if you were getting your family place for free, the real cost in moving would be dragging along one very unwilling participant. And you know this. And you still want to do it. (Why!?) Compromises aren't like debts that you build up and pay off. If you have a deep seated feeling that your life has turned into one giant compromise and now your husband owes you the same...you can see why that will fail, right?
Is it possible to frame your desires in a way that leaves more options open? Options that would be amenable to your husband, who also deserves a say in his living conditions and happiness. Focus on your need to slow down your work, maybe ease up on your hours outside the home, your willingness to cut back and make sacrifices to have that, even if it means finding a more affordable place that you BOTH can agree upon, which might not be 100% what either of you want, but enough of both that the resulting happiness was worth it.
posted by contessa at 6:32 PM on May 20, 2011
I want our child to have the same kind of idyllic, free-range, playing in the creek and climbing trees childhood that I had.
Just because you want this does not mean moving will be best for your child. For all you know, your child will be happier in the long run to be in the city, being able to have a larger social sphere to find friends in, being invigorated by all the things going on there. If you want to enroll your child in any activities, there are more choices in the city. Perhaps when they get older they will have a talent in an area they would like to develop and take classes in, attend a magnet school, visit libraries and museums -- all of these are more available in a city.
If as their personality develops they don't "fit in" -- well, there are many, many more places to fit in in a city. I live in the largest city in my mostly rural state, and have quite a few friends who were very, very eager to get away from the rural areas where they grew up (and several friends who moved to "idyllic" rural areas as adults and discovered they did not care for that after all). Rural areas are no paradise for a teenager trapped there if they happen to be "different" in any way, whether that's having a great interest in science and computer programming, being gay, or having a great drive to express themselves artistically in a way that does not fit with the social norms of the area.
You do need to look beyond the two options you are thinking of. Not only are you not understanding why your husband doesn't want to do this, I don't think you have really looked at why you want to do this either. This is more of a fantasy for you right now.
So you want to be a PTA mom? Have you looked at what the PTA does in that school district, and what the personalities of the others in it are like? What would living as an adult in this place where you have these idyllic childhood memories be like -- will you fit in with the community and make friends there, or will you feel like an outsider with different experiences, religious views, ideas about what is and is not acceptable behavior than people who have lived their whole life in this rural area? What's the economy like there, the culture, the crime rate? What are the biggest problems in the community?
What are the things you won't like about it? (if you don't know, you haven't thought about this enough)
You won't have the same experience living in this area as an adult as you had as a child -- I'm not saying you'll have a bad experience, you just need to look at what it would be like in that community without being blinded by thinking you know already. Your perspective as a parent may well be different -- you might worry about your child being exposed to agricultural runoff in the creek, and find yourself more worried than delighted when they climb 40 feet up into a tree.
Also, what about when your child gets older... will you still want to be a PTA mom? If you want to return to your career will it be difficult after taking a break, and would you face a very long commute if you don't want to move and take your child away from their idyllic rural existence?
Financially, this makes good sense. The family house does need a little work, but if we put $50K into it, we would still have the other $150K from the sale of our house to provide a cushion for property taxes and unexpected expenses. My husband's salary could pay our other living expenses - it wouldn't be luxury, but it would be easily doable.
Your financial argument does not hold water, even if one ignores that the family will be losing your income. The money will be a "cushion" for property taxes!? So your husband's salary won't be enough to cover the taxes, and you will be drawing down your savings to cover them as well as unexpected expenses? That is not a financially stable situation. Property taxes generally go up over time as well. Not to mention that the cost of remodeling and repairs generally turns out to be higher than you would expect, plus an older home will have many things on the verge of needing replacement. If you need a new roof, you'll find that cushion deflating quite quickly. Expenses being higher than your income is not a good situation to be in.
It sounds like your main goals are to get away from your job, and spend more time with your child. Perhaps selling one or both of these houses would allow you to do that. You could move into a smaller apartment and cut down on the heating bill.
posted by yohko at 7:19 PM on May 20, 2011 [6 favorites]
Just because you want this does not mean moving will be best for your child. For all you know, your child will be happier in the long run to be in the city, being able to have a larger social sphere to find friends in, being invigorated by all the things going on there. If you want to enroll your child in any activities, there are more choices in the city. Perhaps when they get older they will have a talent in an area they would like to develop and take classes in, attend a magnet school, visit libraries and museums -- all of these are more available in a city.
If as their personality develops they don't "fit in" -- well, there are many, many more places to fit in in a city. I live in the largest city in my mostly rural state, and have quite a few friends who were very, very eager to get away from the rural areas where they grew up (and several friends who moved to "idyllic" rural areas as adults and discovered they did not care for that after all). Rural areas are no paradise for a teenager trapped there if they happen to be "different" in any way, whether that's having a great interest in science and computer programming, being gay, or having a great drive to express themselves artistically in a way that does not fit with the social norms of the area.
You do need to look beyond the two options you are thinking of. Not only are you not understanding why your husband doesn't want to do this, I don't think you have really looked at why you want to do this either. This is more of a fantasy for you right now.
So you want to be a PTA mom? Have you looked at what the PTA does in that school district, and what the personalities of the others in it are like? What would living as an adult in this place where you have these idyllic childhood memories be like -- will you fit in with the community and make friends there, or will you feel like an outsider with different experiences, religious views, ideas about what is and is not acceptable behavior than people who have lived their whole life in this rural area? What's the economy like there, the culture, the crime rate? What are the biggest problems in the community?
What are the things you won't like about it? (if you don't know, you haven't thought about this enough)
You won't have the same experience living in this area as an adult as you had as a child -- I'm not saying you'll have a bad experience, you just need to look at what it would be like in that community without being blinded by thinking you know already. Your perspective as a parent may well be different -- you might worry about your child being exposed to agricultural runoff in the creek, and find yourself more worried than delighted when they climb 40 feet up into a tree.
Also, what about when your child gets older... will you still want to be a PTA mom? If you want to return to your career will it be difficult after taking a break, and would you face a very long commute if you don't want to move and take your child away from their idyllic rural existence?
Financially, this makes good sense. The family house does need a little work, but if we put $50K into it, we would still have the other $150K from the sale of our house to provide a cushion for property taxes and unexpected expenses. My husband's salary could pay our other living expenses - it wouldn't be luxury, but it would be easily doable.
Your financial argument does not hold water, even if one ignores that the family will be losing your income. The money will be a "cushion" for property taxes!? So your husband's salary won't be enough to cover the taxes, and you will be drawing down your savings to cover them as well as unexpected expenses? That is not a financially stable situation. Property taxes generally go up over time as well. Not to mention that the cost of remodeling and repairs generally turns out to be higher than you would expect, plus an older home will have many things on the verge of needing replacement. If you need a new roof, you'll find that cushion deflating quite quickly. Expenses being higher than your income is not a good situation to be in.
It sounds like your main goals are to get away from your job, and spend more time with your child. Perhaps selling one or both of these houses would allow you to do that. You could move into a smaller apartment and cut down on the heating bill.
posted by yohko at 7:19 PM on May 20, 2011 [6 favorites]
I live in the largest city in my mostly rural state, and have quite a few friends who were very, very eager to get away from the rural areas where they grew up (and several friends who moved to "idyllic" rural areas as adults and discovered they did not care for that after all). Rural areas are no paradise for a teenager trapped there if they happen to be "different" in any way, whether that's having a great interest in science and computer programming, being gay, or having a great drive to express themselves artistically in a way that does not fit with the social norms of the area.
Yohko: Congratulations, you have just written my biography in a paragraph. I live in the largest city in *my* mostly rural state, and I grew up in a small town about an hour away. (We moved there during my parents' quasi-back-to-the-land phase, starting in 1969, during my preschool years. Yes, I am old.) I know lots of people my age who, as adults, moved to My State's Largest City from major metropolitan areas and think that my childhood must have been like something out of "The Waltons." When I say, "No, think 'Lord of the Flies,' " they don't believe me.
posted by virago at 8:05 PM on May 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
Yohko: Congratulations, you have just written my biography in a paragraph. I live in the largest city in *my* mostly rural state, and I grew up in a small town about an hour away. (We moved there during my parents' quasi-back-to-the-land phase, starting in 1969, during my preschool years. Yes, I am old.) I know lots of people my age who, as adults, moved to My State's Largest City from major metropolitan areas and think that my childhood must have been like something out of "The Waltons." When I say, "No, think 'Lord of the Flies,' " they don't believe me.
posted by virago at 8:05 PM on May 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
I do agree with
"As parents, the responsibility lies in doing what is best for junior"
and my parent-take is that ALL decisions are best, even easily, sorted out with "What is in my child's best interests?"
but I do not agree with
"Dad's social life is no longer a priority"
as parents need friends. Parenting in isolation is unnecessarily difficult and unpleasant, and if your husband's friends are good people they are undoubtedly kind to your child, and children really thrive on positive attention from involved, loving adults. "Family friends" are a great boon for a child, insulators against all manner of bad. I work at cultivating relationships with good people so my kid can reap the benefits. Last week one of these people, previously a music teacher by trade, offered to have a piano arrive in my home, tuned and delivered and all. Your friends are not trivial (but if they are, or if they are not good people, that's a big problem and another Ask...)
Anyway, I want to say that I moved to a rural area four years ago now, and I am really taken aback by how glib you are about this. You're treating this like it's a debate over what restaurant should be your regular Friday night restaurant. Nuts. This is a huge change for anybody, and it's totally reasonable for your husband to not want to do it, and totally unreasonable for you to view him as the least bit unreasonable for not wanting to. (I am actually suspicious that your 'no to counseling' is because you are on some level aware that an objective outsider would say 'Lady, you nuts' about this.)
"I want our child to have the same kind of idyllic, free-range, playing in the creek and climbing trees" is nice and by this point you probably wonder why you don't have more sympathy from somebody who made a move to the country so her own daughter could have that particular brand of childhood.
But, you know, I still long for the city sometimes, and fret about what she's missing out by not having a city childhood, and I think pre-move I underestimated my ability to provide a kick-ass city childhood. We make a LOT of trips to the city (and with only one parent working outside the home, car expenses are a significant part of the budget). There are many wonderful ways to raise a kid in the city; don't sell that short. If Dad delights in doing city things with your kid, don't devalue that.
Nth that financially the plan does not make sense. (It is awesome being an at-home parent, but do you want to be a broke at-home parent? Not so awesome.) Nth that there's got to be a third way here. Move to an apartment, both work part-time? Something.
posted by kmennie at 9:05 PM on May 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
"As parents, the responsibility lies in doing what is best for junior"
and my parent-take is that ALL decisions are best, even easily, sorted out with "What is in my child's best interests?"
but I do not agree with
"Dad's social life is no longer a priority"
as parents need friends. Parenting in isolation is unnecessarily difficult and unpleasant, and if your husband's friends are good people they are undoubtedly kind to your child, and children really thrive on positive attention from involved, loving adults. "Family friends" are a great boon for a child, insulators against all manner of bad. I work at cultivating relationships with good people so my kid can reap the benefits. Last week one of these people, previously a music teacher by trade, offered to have a piano arrive in my home, tuned and delivered and all. Your friends are not trivial (but if they are, or if they are not good people, that's a big problem and another Ask...)
Anyway, I want to say that I moved to a rural area four years ago now, and I am really taken aback by how glib you are about this. You're treating this like it's a debate over what restaurant should be your regular Friday night restaurant. Nuts. This is a huge change for anybody, and it's totally reasonable for your husband to not want to do it, and totally unreasonable for you to view him as the least bit unreasonable for not wanting to. (I am actually suspicious that your 'no to counseling' is because you are on some level aware that an objective outsider would say 'Lady, you nuts' about this.)
"I want our child to have the same kind of idyllic, free-range, playing in the creek and climbing trees" is nice and by this point you probably wonder why you don't have more sympathy from somebody who made a move to the country so her own daughter could have that particular brand of childhood.
But, you know, I still long for the city sometimes, and fret about what she's missing out by not having a city childhood, and I think pre-move I underestimated my ability to provide a kick-ass city childhood. We make a LOT of trips to the city (and with only one parent working outside the home, car expenses are a significant part of the budget). There are many wonderful ways to raise a kid in the city; don't sell that short. If Dad delights in doing city things with your kid, don't devalue that.
Nth that financially the plan does not make sense. (It is awesome being an at-home parent, but do you want to be a broke at-home parent? Not so awesome.) Nth that there's got to be a third way here. Move to an apartment, both work part-time? Something.
posted by kmennie at 9:05 PM on May 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
Communication isn't an issue here. We're each communicating very clearly about this issue, and we each understand the others' point of view. We're just at an impasse. I strongly want to do this - not only because I want to be a stay-at-home mom, but because I want our child to have the same kind of idyllic, free-range, playing in the creek and climbing trees childhood that I had. My husband strongly does not, mainly because he says he would "feel isolated" in the new community.
I suspect this is his biggest objection. [emphasis mine]
You say that you're communicating well, and it sounds like you're communicating... alright. You have his list of reasons. But there is probably a lot, lot more behind that. What does "feel isolated" mean to him? Can he give examples of moments in which he would feel isolated?
I just finished reading this book, Difficult Conversations. It has really good advice about deescalating tense situations, listening even more deeply, and understanding your own perspective even more fully. Basically, I feel like you need to slow this way down, get out of "yes" vs. "no" positions, and really discuss even more deeply what's at stake for you and him.
posted by salvia at 10:02 PM on May 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
I suspect this is his biggest objection. [emphasis mine]
You say that you're communicating well, and it sounds like you're communicating... alright. You have his list of reasons. But there is probably a lot, lot more behind that. What does "feel isolated" mean to him? Can he give examples of moments in which he would feel isolated?
I just finished reading this book, Difficult Conversations. It has really good advice about deescalating tense situations, listening even more deeply, and understanding your own perspective even more fully. Basically, I feel like you need to slow this way down, get out of "yes" vs. "no" positions, and really discuss even more deeply what's at stake for you and him.
posted by salvia at 10:02 PM on May 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
this is what being the isolated breadwinning parent feels like: excessive gut wrenching loneliness; fantasies where somehow we move back to where I want to be; an unfair amount of resentment; lack of coping with small things; high job dissatisfaction; unreasonable anger at everything on occcasion and a complete and total disdain of where we live. And we moved to a higher wage, lower living costs and significantly closer to both of our families. But I hate it, I really really hate it. I hate the loneliness and the isolation and this stupid fucking city. I hate being close to family. And I resent the move. And the only time that spills into resenting my partner is when he forgets how much of a strain this is for me, and how much it affects pretty much everything we do. When he acts like I miss my social life and that's it. As if it were that simple.
posted by geek anachronism at 4:49 AM on May 21, 2011 [6 favorites]
posted by geek anachronism at 4:49 AM on May 21, 2011 [6 favorites]
Even IF you could KNOW that this move was best for you (maybe) and for your son (not really possible to know that for sure), you also know that this move is not best for your husband.
So the question is, how important is 'what's best for your husband' to the question of 'what's best for your family.' If the answer is (as it seems to be) 'not very', then you're saying that your husband isn't actually such an important part of the family. No wonder he doesn't want to give up a supportive environment (friends and community) in order to be the sole breadwinner for this family!
posted by Salamandrous at 9:05 AM on May 21, 2011 [4 favorites]
So the question is, how important is 'what's best for your husband' to the question of 'what's best for your family.' If the answer is (as it seems to be) 'not very', then you're saying that your husband isn't actually such an important part of the family. No wonder he doesn't want to give up a supportive environment (friends and community) in order to be the sole breadwinner for this family!
posted by Salamandrous at 9:05 AM on May 21, 2011 [4 favorites]
What if you don't do this? Will the house be sold out of the family?
Issues:
mortgage is too much to afford
you want more time to be a Mom
you want child to have rural experience
husband wants to be in/near city
husband wants to be near friends
The family house is only 1 of many solutions. Try discussing this and looking at other solutions to the issues.
The reason you need a good therapist is that there are issues you aren't addressing.
1 exercise: Both of talk about your proposal in the most positive way
then
Both of talk about his preference in the most positive way
Another: Talk about what you want your family to look like in 10, 20, 30 years.
posted by theora55 at 12:40 PM on May 21, 2011
Issues:
mortgage is too much to afford
you want more time to be a Mom
you want child to have rural experience
husband wants to be in/near city
husband wants to be near friends
The family house is only 1 of many solutions. Try discussing this and looking at other solutions to the issues.
The reason you need a good therapist is that there are issues you aren't addressing.
1 exercise: Both of talk about your proposal in the most positive way
then
Both of talk about his preference in the most positive way
Another: Talk about what you want your family to look like in 10, 20, 30 years.
posted by theora55 at 12:40 PM on May 21, 2011
I just have to say -- and it's been said plenty upthread -- that this really smells bad. Of COURSE he doesn't want to play ball here -- you get everything, he gets ??? What, exactly? He's still working, you're making biscuits or knitting a hat and he's still out there slugging through life. He signed into a partnership, and now he's going to end up with two children.
Again, as noted upthread -- why doesn't he get to be SAHD? Why should it be just automatically better for the child if it's you? Also -- how can you possibly know if this is better for your child than the brisk life of a city? You can't.
Which leads inevitably to this -- you don't want this for your child. You damn sure don't want it for your marriage, your partnership. You want this for you. It's remarkably selfish. Of COURSE you don't want to go to therapy -- it'll come out in the first minutes spent in the presence of an unbiased observer that you're running a big fat game here.
This isn't a move toward, it's a move away -- it's a dodge. You want to run. You want to put your head under the same covers you slept in as a child. And then you wonder why he's not onboard?
posted by dancestoblue at 3:54 PM on May 21, 2011 [7 favorites]
Again, as noted upthread -- why doesn't he get to be SAHD? Why should it be just automatically better for the child if it's you? Also -- how can you possibly know if this is better for your child than the brisk life of a city? You can't.
Which leads inevitably to this -- you don't want this for your child. You damn sure don't want it for your marriage, your partnership. You want this for you. It's remarkably selfish. Of COURSE you don't want to go to therapy -- it'll come out in the first minutes spent in the presence of an unbiased observer that you're running a big fat game here.
This isn't a move toward, it's a move away -- it's a dodge. You want to run. You want to put your head under the same covers you slept in as a child. And then you wonder why he's not onboard?
posted by dancestoblue at 3:54 PM on May 21, 2011 [7 favorites]
Oh, by the way -- I think it'd be helpful for your partnership to print out this thread and read it with your husband, after your child is in bed. You'd have fun! Okay, probably not. But once all the cards are placed face-up on the table, your partnership would be strengthened, of that I have no doubt.
posted by dancestoblue at 4:01 PM on May 21, 2011
posted by dancestoblue at 4:01 PM on May 21, 2011
Oh yeah, I had the idealized childhood you speak of. It was in the suburbs, but with nearby woods and farmland. Us kids could go marching off or sledding off into the woods or we could roam around our vast neighborhood (numerous subdivisions within a five mile radius). It was great. We got a mixture of nature and the best of having a huge community of kids (and adults) around.
Had we lived in the country, I would have been bored out of my mind. It's good to have lots of options for friends and activities as a kid.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:49 PM on May 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
Had we lived in the country, I would have been bored out of my mind. It's good to have lots of options for friends and activities as a kid.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:49 PM on May 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
Blatcher's right. I grew up in a rural area and was incredibly, incredibly lonely. I loved having the woods and the outdoors but I NEEDED friends to go with it.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 4:52 PM on May 21, 2011
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 4:52 PM on May 21, 2011
In my experience, the things you suddenly want when you are burned out and at the end of your rope, you want BECAUSE you are burned out and at the end of your rope. They are not perennial appetites but short-lived cravings, likely to shift significantly or evaporate entirely after they are satisfied. This is why drastic change as a response to stress is usually a bad idea.
Your current frustrations and desire for change are perfectly valid and deserve to be treated seriously. But the particular solutions you're campaigning for are very costly (in social and emotional terms, if not financial) and are known to have serious side-effects. Those costs and side effects may seem inconsequential right now, while you're desperate, but they aren't likely to seem that way for long.
posted by jon1270 at 5:28 AM on May 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
Your current frustrations and desire for change are perfectly valid and deserve to be treated seriously. But the particular solutions you're campaigning for are very costly (in social and emotional terms, if not financial) and are known to have serious side-effects. Those costs and side effects may seem inconsequential right now, while you're desperate, but they aren't likely to seem that way for long.
posted by jon1270 at 5:28 AM on May 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
Nthing MadamM - I don't have kids either but if my child were 4-5 years old and my spouse announced they wanted to be a SAHD/SAHM this late in the game it would be confusing to me. The child is about to start school and will shortly be gone 8 hours a day when they start grade 1.
posted by getawaysticks at 7:01 AM on May 23, 2011
posted by getawaysticks at 7:01 AM on May 23, 2011
You're going to say "therapy". Trust me that this isn't a therapy-worthy issue.
Yes, it is the answer, but since you're so against it, you're making yourself the loser.
posted by WeekendJen at 1:20 PM on May 23, 2011
Yes, it is the answer, but since you're so against it, you're making yourself the loser.
posted by WeekendJen at 1:20 PM on May 23, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
Bonus question: if he did have other suggestions for improving the quality of your life, would you be able to fairly listen to them in good faith, or is your heart set on this one option?
posted by hermitosis at 12:25 PM on May 20, 2011 [2 favorites]