I can hear her baying from a mile away!
March 5, 2013 11:07 AM Subscribe
I recently adopted a three-year-old foxhound--a rescue. She's sweet tempered and gentle with people and other animals. But I have two huge problems.
First: when she sees a deer, smells a deer, thinks a deer has been anywhere near within the past six years, she bays. Loudly. I can't distract her and I've tried food, shaking her (like a mother dog might do), shaking a water bottle, squirting her with water, saying "quiet" and praising for being quiet. When my husband takes her for a walk, I can hear her when he's at the end of our road--almost a mile away. We live in an area with lots of deer, fox, raccoon, skunk, and other wonderful wildlife that distract her hound-y nose. How do I get her to shut up (on command)?
Second: And not as big a problem, but this would make life easier for all of us. She refuses to walk down the stairs inside the house. We live in a modern, beach-type house...our living quarters are on the second floor (basement/garage/laundry/spare room on the first floor). She'll walk down the stairs outside (they're open stairs and look just like the inside stairs), but she won't walk down the inside stairs (which look like the outside stairs). We've tried to convince her with food, the sound of fun (we'll be down and she's up) and even put her on the leash and tried to walk her down and she refuses to use the inside stairs. This wouldn't be a problem, except our dog door to the fenced area is downstairs...and if she's up with us, she has to be able to go down and let herself out when nature calls.
We tried obedience lessons, but she just bayed at the other dogs in class. The instructor put her behind a screen so that she couldn't see the other dogs--and she still bayed at them. (She is good at sitting, though.)
As I said, she's a sweet dog and we're not going to get rid of her. But if we could just tweak her behavior a little...especially the baying...we'd have a perfect relationship.
First: when she sees a deer, smells a deer, thinks a deer has been anywhere near within the past six years, she bays. Loudly. I can't distract her and I've tried food, shaking her (like a mother dog might do), shaking a water bottle, squirting her with water, saying "quiet" and praising for being quiet. When my husband takes her for a walk, I can hear her when he's at the end of our road--almost a mile away. We live in an area with lots of deer, fox, raccoon, skunk, and other wonderful wildlife that distract her hound-y nose. How do I get her to shut up (on command)?
Second: And not as big a problem, but this would make life easier for all of us. She refuses to walk down the stairs inside the house. We live in a modern, beach-type house...our living quarters are on the second floor (basement/garage/laundry/spare room on the first floor). She'll walk down the stairs outside (they're open stairs and look just like the inside stairs), but she won't walk down the inside stairs (which look like the outside stairs). We've tried to convince her with food, the sound of fun (we'll be down and she's up) and even put her on the leash and tried to walk her down and she refuses to use the inside stairs. This wouldn't be a problem, except our dog door to the fenced area is downstairs...and if she's up with us, she has to be able to go down and let herself out when nature calls.
We tried obedience lessons, but she just bayed at the other dogs in class. The instructor put her behind a screen so that she couldn't see the other dogs--and she still bayed at them. (She is good at sitting, though.)
As I said, she's a sweet dog and we're not going to get rid of her. But if we could just tweak her behavior a little...especially the baying...we'd have a perfect relationship.
Response by poster: We've had her about five months now. And this dog walks on top of the rickety woodpile out back for fun!
posted by byjingo! at 11:25 AM on March 5, 2013
posted by byjingo! at 11:25 AM on March 5, 2013
My dog hadn't ever encountered stairs before and our apartment was on the second floor. We walked him with a harness that looked like this one, and when we walked down the stairs, I would kind of hold him by the harness like a suitcase to keep him moving forward, and to prevent him from hurtling the whole way down. Within a few weeks he'd figured out the right speed to do stairs without tragedy.
For the baying, I would probably try doing some one-on-one clicker training with her (when she's not baying), pretty much daily. If you can keep her mind busy and her body tired, she may not be as OMG EXCITED about deer. Keep rewarding her and giving a command word as soon as she stops baying on her own; eventually she'll (probably?) figure it out.
posted by specialagentwebb at 11:40 AM on March 5, 2013
For the baying, I would probably try doing some one-on-one clicker training with her (when she's not baying), pretty much daily. If you can keep her mind busy and her body tired, she may not be as OMG EXCITED about deer. Keep rewarding her and giving a command word as soon as she stops baying on her own; eventually she'll (probably?) figure it out.
posted by specialagentwebb at 11:40 AM on March 5, 2013
Have you tried teaching her to use the inside stairs a tiny bit at a time, as a trick? Get her on the very bottom step, then big HUGE reward and praise for going to floor, repeat as many times as necessary for her to be excited and not worried about it at all, then next time start at the second step up, etc.? It's a good method not only for making them think stairs are fun, but also helping them learn to regulate their speed in an incremental way. They get scared when they get going too fast down a big flight of stairs.
Also, is the texture of the inside stairs smoother? Is it steeper? Are her nails too long or does she have fur growing out between her pads? Slipperiness can be super scary to a lot of dogs and it doesn't take a lot to spook them. Most dogs would see a rickety woodpile as a lot less challenging than a whole flight of stairs.
posted by HotToddy at 11:50 AM on March 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
Also, is the texture of the inside stairs smoother? Is it steeper? Are her nails too long or does she have fur growing out between her pads? Slipperiness can be super scary to a lot of dogs and it doesn't take a lot to spook them. Most dogs would see a rickety woodpile as a lot less challenging than a whole flight of stairs.
posted by HotToddy at 11:50 AM on March 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Tried the clicker training (that was part of dog-o class) to keep her quiet. And my husband runs with her daily (5 to 9 miles usually)...so you'd think she'd be worn out. We may have to turn to a bark collar...but hoped not to do so. Our neighbors haven't complained ... but we have apologized to them already for her noise.
Inside stairs have carpet strips on them so that dogs won't slip. Outside stairs don't. But will try using her harness like a suitcase...good idea!
We've put a baby gate halfway up the stairs and she's learned to go to the gate and come back down. Maybe we'll move it to the top and force the issue by not helping her down the stairs.
I love ya'll. Thanks for comments and any other suggestions!
posted by byjingo! at 11:56 AM on March 5, 2013
Inside stairs have carpet strips on them so that dogs won't slip. Outside stairs don't. But will try using her harness like a suitcase...good idea!
We've put a baby gate halfway up the stairs and she's learned to go to the gate and come back down. Maybe we'll move it to the top and force the issue by not helping her down the stairs.
I love ya'll. Thanks for comments and any other suggestions!
posted by byjingo! at 11:56 AM on March 5, 2013
Foxhounds are famous for being both noisy and stubborn. You are probably going to have to get a shock collar to teach her the command Quiet. Sucks but most people do have to. As far as baying when she scents game, that's what she's bred to do so when you can let her, let her do it. It'll fulfill her doggy life and also make her easier to find when she takes off.
For the stairs just pick her up, carry her halfway up, set her down and let her figure it out. She's not a sensitive dog, she'll be fine.
Those dogs are bred to run fast all day. She needs more exercise. Can you let her run free? Or bike with her?
posted by fshgrl at 12:01 PM on March 5, 2013
For the stairs just pick her up, carry her halfway up, set her down and let her figure it out. She's not a sensitive dog, she'll be fine.
Those dogs are bred to run fast all day. She needs more exercise. Can you let her run free? Or bike with her?
posted by fshgrl at 12:01 PM on March 5, 2013
An alternative to a shock collar might be a muzzle. My dog used to be really loud during the night and we put the muzzle on her a few times and she learned to be quiet. Now, on the rare occasion that we need her to be quiet, all we have to do is show her the muzzle and she'll quiet down because she hates it so much.
posted by cyml at 12:13 PM on March 5, 2013
posted by cyml at 12:13 PM on March 5, 2013
That bay - you can see it on their faces sometimes - is nearly subconscious. It happens at my house with fire trucks, and my poor dumb dogs will look at me like "why am I dooooOOOOOOooooing this?"
Ultimately you'll have to teach her to choose not to do it, but you might get yourself a kazoo or something that goes sproing or a pennywhistle - something that sounds super weird. She starts to bay, you honk on the kazoo, she stops and looks at you all WTF and you reward her (click and treat) instantly for stopping and looking at you. The surprising noise is just to short-circuit her bay routine. (Warning: kazoos sound like prey, so you may just get yourself bayed at, but as long as you keep your quacks pretty short it shouldn't be a problem.)
When I used to work with foster greyhounds, we took it super slow on stairs - 1 minute a day, then 2 then 3, sometimes weeks before even attempting to lure and not help - because they're so long and their legs are so spindly and they have no idea what they're doing. The other thing we did is take them out somewhere that had a wide staircase of relatively shallow stairs, like you might find in front of a public building or university campus. Sometimes working on some easier stairs first, when they had visibility, helped them learn the math.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:36 PM on March 5, 2013 [5 favorites]
Ultimately you'll have to teach her to choose not to do it, but you might get yourself a kazoo or something that goes sproing or a pennywhistle - something that sounds super weird. She starts to bay, you honk on the kazoo, she stops and looks at you all WTF and you reward her (click and treat) instantly for stopping and looking at you. The surprising noise is just to short-circuit her bay routine. (Warning: kazoos sound like prey, so you may just get yourself bayed at, but as long as you keep your quacks pretty short it shouldn't be a problem.)
When I used to work with foster greyhounds, we took it super slow on stairs - 1 minute a day, then 2 then 3, sometimes weeks before even attempting to lure and not help - because they're so long and their legs are so spindly and they have no idea what they're doing. The other thing we did is take them out somewhere that had a wide staircase of relatively shallow stairs, like you might find in front of a public building or university campus. Sometimes working on some easier stairs first, when they had visibility, helped them learn the math.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:36 PM on March 5, 2013 [5 favorites]
I need a picture of your dog to answer this question adequately.
On the stairs thing, she'll walk up but not down? If so, let her walk up with you, and then abandon her to walk downstairs and feed her, making the characteristic food dish sounds.
Make sure she's hungry. If you feed ad-lib, stop doing that for a while, feeding twice a day for a week before you use a dinner meal to change her behavior. If you can, put the food dish where it can be seen from the top of the stairs.
Make no move to help her when she complains: getting picked up might be the outcome that she has learned to expect, indoors. No descent, no eating. It'll be tough that first time, but you have to hold fast.
I had a rescue cattledog that would not go down open-backed stairs at all. She'd had a hard life as a young thing, and any coaxing, no matter how mild, brought wild panic. We just worked around it, and then suddenly one day it wasn't a problem anymore.
Like fshgrl says, she was bred to bay. It's going to be very, very difficult, perhaps even cruel, to completely extinguish this behavior. You are, to some degree, going to have to get used to it. The best and most unpleasant noisemaker I've heard is an aluminum beverage can with small coins in it, shaken, to emphasize your displeasure at indoor baying.
One other thing to realize is that if the bay is getting you to do things, or if she is pushing your buttons by baying, you are going to have to stop responding that way to her. I've extinguished pushy barking in teacup poodles, and watched with dismay as their owners encouraged and retrained the bad behavior as soon as they got their dog back.
posted by the Real Dan at 12:59 PM on March 5, 2013
On the stairs thing, she'll walk up but not down? If so, let her walk up with you, and then abandon her to walk downstairs and feed her, making the characteristic food dish sounds.
Make sure she's hungry. If you feed ad-lib, stop doing that for a while, feeding twice a day for a week before you use a dinner meal to change her behavior. If you can, put the food dish where it can be seen from the top of the stairs.
Make no move to help her when she complains: getting picked up might be the outcome that she has learned to expect, indoors. No descent, no eating. It'll be tough that first time, but you have to hold fast.
I had a rescue cattledog that would not go down open-backed stairs at all. She'd had a hard life as a young thing, and any coaxing, no matter how mild, brought wild panic. We just worked around it, and then suddenly one day it wasn't a problem anymore.
Like fshgrl says, she was bred to bay. It's going to be very, very difficult, perhaps even cruel, to completely extinguish this behavior. You are, to some degree, going to have to get used to it. The best and most unpleasant noisemaker I've heard is an aluminum beverage can with small coins in it, shaken, to emphasize your displeasure at indoor baying.
One other thing to realize is that if the bay is getting you to do things, or if she is pushing your buttons by baying, you are going to have to stop responding that way to her. I've extinguished pushy barking in teacup poodles, and watched with dismay as their owners encouraged and retrained the bad behavior as soon as they got their dog back.
posted by the Real Dan at 12:59 PM on March 5, 2013
I have a Rat Terrier that has a huge prey drive, and used to fixate on anything that might be prey in a very similar way (if he even thought he saw a squirrel he would try to leap out of a car window of a moving car to chase it sort of scary way) He would also fixate on other dogs and lunge at them yodelling and screaming in such a way that it sounded like we were beating him and try to attack them.
What worked for us, and remember it takes lots of patience, you are teaching your dog to over come an instinct so it takes a while.
We worked on all sorts of impulse control in every situation so working on the leave it command on food was the first step. We also included his urges to rush out of doors by making him sit and wait, with snatching food he was taught gentle. Basically worked on teaching him self control in all areas that were easier for him to get the hang of.
When out walking to get him to stop lunging at other dogs, animals, moving leaves we used a water pistol, we found the direct stream better than the mist from a water bottle and its easier to carry. The second he "locked" onto something he would get a squirt from the pistol, this was not a punishment like squirting a cat for jumping on a counter , it was simply to get his attention back onto me as he would focus so completely it was like I wasn't there (if this doesn't work for you you might try a loud whistle, tin can with stones in or some other sort of noise maker). I then used the ""Lets Go" command and depending on the situation would either briskly walk by the situation like it was nothing, or change direction and walk away. At first this meant I was dragging a yodeling freaking out dog that was determined to eat a squirrel slowly and steadily up the street, but the second he walked normally he got huge amounts of praise and super high value treats. It is best if you can stay alert and use the "Lets Go" as soon as you see them start to get interested in something they shouldn't.
This took 6 months of constant work before he became reliably good at it and could go out without a waterpistol In fact a few weeks ago we were out walking and approached an intersection where 2 small dogs where with their owners, a squirrel was chittering at them up a tree and a cat shot across the road all at once. My husband goes uh oh and we both tense up waiting for complete chaos of him chasing and attacking everything. I say a nervous "lets go" and he walks right by like a champ ignoring everything. It took us 2 years to get to this point.
One thing that was totally worth it to us was a few private sessions with a good dog trainer it took us a couple of goes to find one that actually knew what they were doing and next time I'd go straight to getting a recommendation from our vets, and sessions are way cheaper than you think.
Things we tried before this that made things worse. Citronella collars were ignored, shock collars made him fearful and he tried to bite because of it, we only used that once with a trainer, I changed trainers the next day.
As for the stairs, are they carpeted? I know dogs that are really fearful of slippery wooden stairs as they are hard for them to get a grip, this is made worse if their nails are too long.
posted by wwax at 1:11 PM on March 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
What worked for us, and remember it takes lots of patience, you are teaching your dog to over come an instinct so it takes a while.
We worked on all sorts of impulse control in every situation so working on the leave it command on food was the first step. We also included his urges to rush out of doors by making him sit and wait, with snatching food he was taught gentle. Basically worked on teaching him self control in all areas that were easier for him to get the hang of.
When out walking to get him to stop lunging at other dogs, animals, moving leaves we used a water pistol, we found the direct stream better than the mist from a water bottle and its easier to carry. The second he "locked" onto something he would get a squirt from the pistol, this was not a punishment like squirting a cat for jumping on a counter , it was simply to get his attention back onto me as he would focus so completely it was like I wasn't there (if this doesn't work for you you might try a loud whistle, tin can with stones in or some other sort of noise maker). I then used the ""Lets Go" command and depending on the situation would either briskly walk by the situation like it was nothing, or change direction and walk away. At first this meant I was dragging a yodeling freaking out dog that was determined to eat a squirrel slowly and steadily up the street, but the second he walked normally he got huge amounts of praise and super high value treats. It is best if you can stay alert and use the "Lets Go" as soon as you see them start to get interested in something they shouldn't.
This took 6 months of constant work before he became reliably good at it and could go out without a waterpistol In fact a few weeks ago we were out walking and approached an intersection where 2 small dogs where with their owners, a squirrel was chittering at them up a tree and a cat shot across the road all at once. My husband goes uh oh and we both tense up waiting for complete chaos of him chasing and attacking everything. I say a nervous "lets go" and he walks right by like a champ ignoring everything. It took us 2 years to get to this point.
One thing that was totally worth it to us was a few private sessions with a good dog trainer it took us a couple of goes to find one that actually knew what they were doing and next time I'd go straight to getting a recommendation from our vets, and sessions are way cheaper than you think.
Things we tried before this that made things worse. Citronella collars were ignored, shock collars made him fearful and he tried to bite because of it, we only used that once with a trainer, I changed trainers the next day.
As for the stairs, are they carpeted? I know dogs that are really fearful of slippery wooden stairs as they are hard for them to get a grip, this is made worse if their nails are too long.
posted by wwax at 1:11 PM on March 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
Have you tried a citronella collar? Ours helped a bunch. Until the dog ate it, but that's a different story altogether.
posted by kpht at 5:26 PM on March 5, 2013
posted by kpht at 5:26 PM on March 5, 2013
Have you tried teaching her to bay on command? This is one method to getting dogs to stop barking/baying inappropriately.
posted by kamikazegopher at 5:27 PM on March 5, 2013
posted by kamikazegopher at 5:27 PM on March 5, 2013
What, if anything does the rescue know about her? Was she an owner-surrender, a washout from a local foxhunting club, or a stray? Do you have any local foxhunting clubs?
As a dog trainer *and* a former foxhunter, the background of your hound is going to heavily inform how she needs to be handled. Hunt club hounds are heavily pack-oriented and not used to living in home situations. If she's a ex-foxhunter, she's used to living in a pack-based kennel situation -- bitches in one pack, dogs in another, and the two only mingled when it's hunt day. Hunt club foxhounds are kept intact as part of a careful breeding program -- the talented hounds are bred. That bay is highly prized in hunting foxhounds, as giving tongue is not only how riders can tell how hot a scent is but is also a big part of the whole experience of riding to the hounds. The first hound to catch a line of scent will give voice, and then the whole pack will charge over and honor the scent by giving voice themselves (if the first hound really did find a line). That bay has been selectively bred into working foxhounds for hundreds of years, and the chance of extinguishing it is very, very slim.
If she was an owner-surrender, and thus likely from non-working, AKC lines, that instinct is going to be much weaker and thus easier to train.
My best suggestion would be to either contact your local hunt (memail me your location and I might be able to point you in their direction) or contact *any* hunt club about tips for integrating an ex-pack hound into pet life. Many hunts will retire non-breeding dogs into pet homes, and they generally have extensive tips and support systems for new pet owners.
posted by Concolora at 7:33 PM on March 5, 2013
As a dog trainer *and* a former foxhunter, the background of your hound is going to heavily inform how she needs to be handled. Hunt club hounds are heavily pack-oriented and not used to living in home situations. If she's a ex-foxhunter, she's used to living in a pack-based kennel situation -- bitches in one pack, dogs in another, and the two only mingled when it's hunt day. Hunt club foxhounds are kept intact as part of a careful breeding program -- the talented hounds are bred. That bay is highly prized in hunting foxhounds, as giving tongue is not only how riders can tell how hot a scent is but is also a big part of the whole experience of riding to the hounds. The first hound to catch a line of scent will give voice, and then the whole pack will charge over and honor the scent by giving voice themselves (if the first hound really did find a line). That bay has been selectively bred into working foxhounds for hundreds of years, and the chance of extinguishing it is very, very slim.
If she was an owner-surrender, and thus likely from non-working, AKC lines, that instinct is going to be much weaker and thus easier to train.
My best suggestion would be to either contact your local hunt (memail me your location and I might be able to point you in their direction) or contact *any* hunt club about tips for integrating an ex-pack hound into pet life. Many hunts will retire non-breeding dogs into pet homes, and they generally have extensive tips and support systems for new pet owners.
posted by Concolora at 7:33 PM on March 5, 2013
Response by poster: Happiness...for anyone still looking at this. Annie has walked down the stairs! She got hugs and treats for her efforts. We used a babygate...moved it slowly up the stairs (day by day...not all in one sitting) so she had time to practice going up and coming down. Yesterday the gate was at the very top of the stairs and her head was hanging over the top. So this morning, she came up to see me. It took my husband a little while and a little coaxing, but she went down the stairs on a leash! She'll be getting oh-so-much more practice this weekend. We're so pleased to welcome her to the real part of the house!
I'm thinking maybe the baying will decrease when she can hang out upstairs more.
Thanks everyone for your suggestions!
posted by byjingo! at 10:09 AM on March 15, 2013
I'm thinking maybe the baying will decrease when she can hang out upstairs more.
Thanks everyone for your suggestions!
posted by byjingo! at 10:09 AM on March 15, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
It took my dog (who, admittedly, is/was a small puppy) a good 3 months to walk down the inside stairs on his own, and only in the last month or so has he started using the back porch stairs on his own. I suspect she'll get used to them. It may just take her a while. (And some dogs are just bad at stairs.)
posted by phunniemee at 11:16 AM on March 5, 2013 [2 favorites]