What's the deal with way they tie up horses in old Western movies?
July 29, 2012 5:42 PM Subscribe
What's the deal with way they tie up horses in old Western movies?
Specifically, they don't really tie horses up in old westerns. When someone riding a horse gets to a cantina or some other building, they loosely wrap the horse's reins around a post. This seems like the horse could easily walk away. Why do they do this? Was that actual practice in the old west? Or is this a trope of the genre?
Specifically, they don't really tie horses up in old westerns. When someone riding a horse gets to a cantina or some other building, they loosely wrap the horse's reins around a post. This seems like the horse could easily walk away. Why do they do this? Was that actual practice in the old west? Or is this a trope of the genre?
That, plus friction. Try it yourself with a rough leather strap and a rough leather post.
posted by LonnieK at 5:54 PM on July 29, 2012
posted by LonnieK at 5:54 PM on July 29, 2012
You can put a loose hitch around a post that way if you're familiar with rope, as a cowboy would be of course.
You can train a horse to consider itself hitched when the rains are simply dragging on the ground ("ground hitched", IIRC), and I think that was something that people did in the old west, but I don't know whether it would be unusual for a given horse to be so trained.
posted by hattifattener at 6:03 PM on July 29, 2012
You can train a horse to consider itself hitched when the rains are simply dragging on the ground ("ground hitched", IIRC), and I think that was something that people did in the old west, but I don't know whether it would be unusual for a given horse to be so trained.
posted by hattifattener at 6:03 PM on July 29, 2012
Best answer: You can actually train a horse to stay put by just dropping the reins on the ground. It's called ground tying. So if a horse has had that kind of training, a little loose wrapping around a post isn't much different.
And given that horses ridden Western generally use a curb bit, with long shanks that apply more leverage to the mouth than a simple bit like the snaffle, a horse tied tightly by reins who freaked out could inflict some serious damage to its mouth while trying to get away. If you want to tie up a horse for any period of time, using a halter and rope is safer.
posted by maudlin at 6:04 PM on July 29, 2012 [7 favorites]
And given that horses ridden Western generally use a curb bit, with long shanks that apply more leverage to the mouth than a simple bit like the snaffle, a horse tied tightly by reins who freaked out could inflict some serious damage to its mouth while trying to get away. If you want to tie up a horse for any period of time, using a halter and rope is safer.
posted by maudlin at 6:04 PM on July 29, 2012 [7 favorites]
There is a knot called a clove hitch which was used for tying horses (or so I was told in the Scouts) and which is basically just three loops around a post with one crossed. You can tie it very quickly. There is another knot called a lark's head which is also just two loops flipped a certain way over a post. You don't necessarily even need two hands to do it. You wouldn't leave it hanging loose or anything, but that's not to say that an experienced rider who'd done it a lot couldn't tie a horse in such a way that it looked like he/she was just casually looping the rope onto the post. I knew a deckhand who could tie a boat off to a cleat just by standing back and flicking the rope at it a few times. It was impressive and looked very casual but took a fair bit of skill to get right.
posted by Scientist at 6:07 PM on July 29, 2012
posted by Scientist at 6:07 PM on July 29, 2012
These horses were taught to "ground tie" meaning to not move when the rider dismounted, which was also helpful out on open range where there was no hitching post.
In town, the hitching post was a handy place to put the reins as a reminder to the horse to stay put. Plus, it kept the reins off the ground so the horse didn't step on them (damaging to the reins and the horse's mouth). In addition, the drape method allowed the horses to free themselves in event of spooking or an unfriendly neighbor horse kicking.
Plus, in the totally unlikely need of a quick getaway from the bank, your ride needs to be ready in a jiff.
posted by mightshould at 6:09 PM on July 29, 2012 [3 favorites]
In town, the hitching post was a handy place to put the reins as a reminder to the horse to stay put. Plus, it kept the reins off the ground so the horse didn't step on them (damaging to the reins and the horse's mouth). In addition, the drape method allowed the horses to free themselves in event of spooking or an unfriendly neighbor horse kicking.
Plus, in the totally unlikely need of a quick getaway from the bank, your ride needs to be ready in a jiff.
posted by mightshould at 6:09 PM on July 29, 2012 [3 favorites]
I saw this question asked on a children's science show. The scientist demonstrated a rope wrapped a few times around a post had enough friction to make pulling it away impossible even using all of his strength.
posted by surenoproblem at 6:10 PM on July 29, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by surenoproblem at 6:10 PM on July 29, 2012 [2 favorites]
Heh, came back to say what maudlin just pointed out, which I remembered from when a relative of mine kept horses— often you want to tie your horse such that it can break free rather than injure itself, if it panics due to brigands being tossed out through windows, or if the saloon unaccountably burns down, or so on. You can recover a horse that's spooked and run away, but you can't recover a horse that's broken its neck thrashing against the rope.
posted by hattifattener at 6:14 PM on July 29, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by hattifattener at 6:14 PM on July 29, 2012 [2 favorites]
Best answer: The force of friction that resists the pull of the horse is massive when you wrap the rope a few times around the pole. The resulting force grows exponentially larger by the coefficient of friction and the number of wraps. So in this case you just need a rope that is relatively strong and the rope won't go anywhere.
It seems hard to believe, but a normal strap and post with a few wraps has enough hold to stop a horse no matter how hard it tries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capstan_equation
posted by Stirdog at 6:23 PM on July 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
It seems hard to believe, but a normal strap and post with a few wraps has enough hold to stop a horse no matter how hard it tries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capstan_equation
posted by Stirdog at 6:23 PM on July 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
surenoproblem writes "I saw this question asked on a children's science show. The scientist demonstrated a rope wrapped a few times around a post had enough friction to make pulling it away impossible even using all of his strength."
This is how a capstan winch works. A couple wraps around a powered drum with a piece of rope allows thousands of pounds of force to be applied to the rope while only requiring the operator to maintain light pressure on the free end.
posted by Mitheral at 6:25 PM on July 29, 2012 [2 favorites]
This is how a capstan winch works. A couple wraps around a powered drum with a piece of rope allows thousands of pounds of force to be applied to the rope while only requiring the operator to maintain light pressure on the free end.
posted by Mitheral at 6:25 PM on July 29, 2012 [2 favorites]
Elevators work the same way. A steel cable is wrapped around a drum several times and a counterweight is added. The car is moved up and down by the cable friction on the drum.
posted by Ad hominem at 7:21 PM on July 29, 2012
posted by Ad hominem at 7:21 PM on July 29, 2012
I'm not an old-timey cowboy, or a historian of the west, or even someone who has ever ridden Western style. I would love for someone with real expertise in this area to step in, as the answers I'm giving arise from my experience riding English style. Whenever I tied up a horse in the barn to groom it and tack up, it wore a halter and was cross-tied with two ropes. I never, ever tied that horse by the reins.
Any number of authoritative modern sources will tell you NOT to tie a horse by the reins. From the National Ag Safety Database:
But maybe 19th century cowboys had different habits. Hopefully someone who knows for sure can come by soon.
posted by maudlin at 7:53 PM on July 29, 2012
Any number of authoritative modern sources will tell you NOT to tie a horse by the reins. From the National Ag Safety Database:
A bridle should not take the place of a halter. Never tie a horse by the bridle, bit, or reins. To tie a bridled horse, slip a halter over the bridle and tie with a lead rope attached to the halter as described above. Always untie a horse before removing the halter.From About.com:
Never tie to a bridle, with the reins, or to the bit in anyway. If the horse struggles it could severely injure its mouth.So while all sorts of deceptively simple ties could hold a horse (or a boat, or a man pulling at full strength) and while such knots might be useful when tying a horse by the halter (although people debate that, too), modern practice does not support tying a horse firmly by reins attached to a piece of metal in a rather tender mouth.
But maybe 19th century cowboys had different habits. Hopefully someone who knows for sure can come by soon.
posted by maudlin at 7:53 PM on July 29, 2012
I don't know that many standard Western movies went to much trouble in verifying the authenticity of ways of tying a horse; I was taught Western style riding and we also never used reins only when tying, though some horses did have some ground-tying training.
The closest thing I have to a source handy is Smoky the Cow Horse, and it mentions a "hackmore", basically a rope halter, kept on saddle horses and used instead of a bridle for leading and tying them up, though I don't know if that would happen in town/outside a saloon.
posted by emjaybee at 8:25 PM on July 29, 2012
The closest thing I have to a source handy is Smoky the Cow Horse, and it mentions a "hackmore", basically a rope halter, kept on saddle horses and used instead of a bridle for leading and tying them up, though I don't know if that would happen in town/outside a saloon.
posted by emjaybee at 8:25 PM on July 29, 2012
Best answer: The force of friction that resists the pull of the horse is massive when you wrap the rope a few times around the pole. The resulting force grows exponentially larger by the coefficient of friction and the number of wraps. So in this case you just need a rope that is relatively strong and the rope won't go anywhere.
It seems hard to believe, but a normal strap and post with a few wraps has enough hold to stop a horse no matter how hard it tries.
This is not true. I'm a long time horse person and a horse can easily pull a rope off. I've had numerous horses that didn't tie and so we just looped the leadrope like this I've seen them do it a hundred times. If they can't they just snap the rope (even strong nylon ropes are regularly broken) breaking leather reins or the hardware on a bridle is absolutely trivial and they could do it if only slightly pulling on them. If nothing gives they will snap the wood post or pull the whole shebang out of the ground. Then not only do you have a loose horse it's trailing a wood post. That is a Bad Scene, believe me. Finally, if they can't get loose they can easily kill themselves if tied to something below the level of their head because of the way they sit back and thrash.
In general when you tie a horse up it's after a lot of training in being OK with yielding to pressure, usually from a few days of age, and then always with a quick release and a break free of some kind- ie a leather halter, which will hopefully break under less pressure than it takes to snap a neck, and a quick release knot or clip that they can access without danger if the horse starts to thrash. Some horses don't tie, usually because some idiot tried to tie them to something inappropriate and they panic every time they feel pressure, so those horses you train to ground tie or to stand with the rope looped like that around a post. Occasionally they go walk about but very rarely, most horses are pretty good about standing. Till they see food anyway.
Having said that- the reason western movie horses are not tied is two fold. As noted above they are trained to ground tie and so no need to tie them up. More importantly they are wearing bits, specifically curb bits. You absolutely NEVER tie a horse with a bit. They will snap their jaw in a heartbeat. And if they don't they'll destroy your bridle and then you can't ride them.
posted by fshgrl at 9:17 PM on July 29, 2012 [4 favorites]
It seems hard to believe, but a normal strap and post with a few wraps has enough hold to stop a horse no matter how hard it tries.
This is not true. I'm a long time horse person and a horse can easily pull a rope off. I've had numerous horses that didn't tie and so we just looped the leadrope like this I've seen them do it a hundred times. If they can't they just snap the rope (even strong nylon ropes are regularly broken) breaking leather reins or the hardware on a bridle is absolutely trivial and they could do it if only slightly pulling on them. If nothing gives they will snap the wood post or pull the whole shebang out of the ground. Then not only do you have a loose horse it's trailing a wood post. That is a Bad Scene, believe me. Finally, if they can't get loose they can easily kill themselves if tied to something below the level of their head because of the way they sit back and thrash.
In general when you tie a horse up it's after a lot of training in being OK with yielding to pressure, usually from a few days of age, and then always with a quick release and a break free of some kind- ie a leather halter, which will hopefully break under less pressure than it takes to snap a neck, and a quick release knot or clip that they can access without danger if the horse starts to thrash. Some horses don't tie, usually because some idiot tried to tie them to something inappropriate and they panic every time they feel pressure, so those horses you train to ground tie or to stand with the rope looped like that around a post. Occasionally they go walk about but very rarely, most horses are pretty good about standing. Till they see food anyway.
Having said that- the reason western movie horses are not tied is two fold. As noted above they are trained to ground tie and so no need to tie them up. More importantly they are wearing bits, specifically curb bits. You absolutely NEVER tie a horse with a bit. They will snap their jaw in a heartbeat. And if they don't they'll destroy your bridle and then you can't ride them.
posted by fshgrl at 9:17 PM on July 29, 2012 [4 favorites]
Best answer: There's two points. One, tying with reins... Although this is a major sin now, people commonly did this a long time ago. They simply weren't safety conscious in the same ways that we are now, and there was less concern for how the horse would feel about standing like that for a long time. Split reins, such as used in Western riding, are fairly easy to tie with. Joined reins, such as in English riding, are put on the bridle with the buckle on the horse's right--then when unbuckled, the left rein can be used to tie with.
The second point is the actual knot/lack of a knot. I can tell you from long experience that a wrap is not secure at all, for many reasons: Reins are not long enough to get enough wraps in to be really secure, unless you're tying the horse quite closely (not as shown in Westerns). Reins are made of a fairly thin, smooth leather, which is quite slippery (although a nylon lead rope, for example, will still slide fairly easily over wood, too). A panicked horse will break through leather anyway if a wrap/knot holds, I've also seen horses pull through fence rails when they were tied with nylon.
More commonly, a horse who's idly standing but not really still will also untie themselves. The horse will tend to move to one side of the post or another, rather than pull straight back. The original tight wrap becomes a spiral which slides off of the rail and eventually the horse just wanders off. (My pony is a champion at doing this nonchalantly, in case anyone's wondering--I only use a wrap when we're inside a fence to begin with and I'm there to grab him.)
Teaching a horse to ground tie would solve the problem but is not really as easy as all that. While some probably were trained that way, I doubt that it was a large percentage. All of the Hollywood horses are almost certainly trained to ground tie, but learning tricks is their full time job.
So to sum up an answer your question: They may or may not have tied with their reins, depending on how long they were planning on being inside, but they almost certainly used a real knot of some kind rather than a simple wrap. As a guess, Hollywood probably does this because every second counts in TV/film. If it takes five seconds longer to tie a knot and the knot isn't a part of the plot then they skip it.
(Sniped, but I wrote all this out so I'm posting it anyway.)
posted by anaelith at 9:22 PM on July 29, 2012 [3 favorites]
The second point is the actual knot/lack of a knot. I can tell you from long experience that a wrap is not secure at all, for many reasons: Reins are not long enough to get enough wraps in to be really secure, unless you're tying the horse quite closely (not as shown in Westerns). Reins are made of a fairly thin, smooth leather, which is quite slippery (although a nylon lead rope, for example, will still slide fairly easily over wood, too). A panicked horse will break through leather anyway if a wrap/knot holds, I've also seen horses pull through fence rails when they were tied with nylon.
More commonly, a horse who's idly standing but not really still will also untie themselves. The horse will tend to move to one side of the post or another, rather than pull straight back. The original tight wrap becomes a spiral which slides off of the rail and eventually the horse just wanders off. (My pony is a champion at doing this nonchalantly, in case anyone's wondering--I only use a wrap when we're inside a fence to begin with and I'm there to grab him.)
Teaching a horse to ground tie would solve the problem but is not really as easy as all that. While some probably were trained that way, I doubt that it was a large percentage. All of the Hollywood horses are almost certainly trained to ground tie, but learning tricks is their full time job.
So to sum up an answer your question: They may or may not have tied with their reins, depending on how long they were planning on being inside, but they almost certainly used a real knot of some kind rather than a simple wrap. As a guess, Hollywood probably does this because every second counts in TV/film. If it takes five seconds longer to tie a knot and the knot isn't a part of the plot then they skip it.
(Sniped, but I wrote all this out so I'm posting it anyway.)
posted by anaelith at 9:22 PM on July 29, 2012 [3 favorites]
You don't tie a horse in a riding hackamore for the same reason you don't tie a horse in a bridle. if they pull back the hackamore, which has a stiff rawhide or metal nose piece, will damage their face.
Endurance horses generally wear a halter under the bridle or a combo. It's OK to tie a horse with a halter, although with a quick release or tied well up over their heads for safety (ie when camping). I don't know historically if "horse lines" in marching armies etc were strung up above head height rather than at waist height but I imagine they were and the movies have that wrong because it's something every horse person knows. If you have to tie a horse to a tree for some reason, tie it high! And ideally tie it to a piece of twine around the tree so the twine will snap if the horse panics.
Loose horses don't generally run off like they do in the movies. They go 20 yards and stop to snort dramatically while reliving their dramatic scape from the tiger while waiting for you to come get them. Or eat grass, if there happens to be grass, because hey! grass!
Anaelith- horses that are used for cattle are trained to ground tie because you need them to do it when you're roping. It's not that hard to teach and I've never met a ranch horse that didn't ground tie.
posted by fshgrl at 9:25 PM on July 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
Endurance horses generally wear a halter under the bridle or a combo. It's OK to tie a horse with a halter, although with a quick release or tied well up over their heads for safety (ie when camping). I don't know historically if "horse lines" in marching armies etc were strung up above head height rather than at waist height but I imagine they were and the movies have that wrong because it's something every horse person knows. If you have to tie a horse to a tree for some reason, tie it high! And ideally tie it to a piece of twine around the tree so the twine will snap if the horse panics.
Loose horses don't generally run off like they do in the movies. They go 20 yards and stop to snort dramatically while reliving their dramatic scape from the tiger while waiting for you to come get them. Or eat grass, if there happens to be grass, because hey! grass!
Anaelith- horses that are used for cattle are trained to ground tie because you need them to do it when you're roping. It's not that hard to teach and I've never met a ranch horse that didn't ground tie.
posted by fshgrl at 9:25 PM on July 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
Consider a modern equivalent. If I arrive at a bar with a car then I will look for a vacant, legal, shady place to park. I will make sure that any valuable stuff is removed or hidden from view. Maybe there is a valet or a ticket I have to deal with. All this might take 5 minutes - but anybody making an action film of my life would want to cut that right down. As we know cars in movies stop right outside the bar and the character just walks right in: 5 seconds of screen time.
When you compress action like this there is no time to show complex hitching.
posted by rongorongo at 11:16 PM on July 29, 2012
When you compress action like this there is no time to show complex hitching.
posted by rongorongo at 11:16 PM on July 29, 2012
Best answer: Fshgrl has it spot on. The only other thing I'd add, coming from a western discipline and having known authentic cowboys*,is that horses that are worked HARD day after day after day will stand tied without moving an ear. Also, training a horse in the western style involves hours of standing tied. Cowboys will take two horses to a branding, one a young colt, and have him stand the whole day tied to the fence, wearing a saddle, and just watching. If they have to gather in the morning (think starting out at four AM) and brand in the afternoon, then one horse will stand tied while the other is being used.
I'm in the process of breaking the neighbor's ornery 6 year old Quarter Horse to stand tied. He was constantly fussing with his lead rope, pulling back, untying himself, pawing big holes in the ground, or if tied to the trailer, pawing on the fenders, so he's getting religion tied to my hitch rail with rubber mats that make pawing not near as fun. He gets tied at 8 AM and stands all day in the sun. I offer him a drink at ten, two, and four, and untie him, walk him around, and tie him back up. After six days, he's much better, but still not completely finished with fooling around. Had the owners done a little when he was a colt, there wouldn't be near this much work involved.
I've another neighbor that thinks I'm so awful and cruel to tie poor horsie up so long, but it's not her expensive trailer getting torn up, either. I also notice her horses are rude and nasty to handle which is dangerous. My eight year old granddaughter goes out and catches mine in the 40 acre field by herself, and she isn't so great with knots, so when she ties them, it's more like a hint than a knot. But they stay where they're put! Mr. Quarter Horse will stand tied to his post for a month if that's what it takes to sink in. Repetition is the key to training a horse. Besides, what else would he be doing but standing out in his pen anyway. At least the hitch rail is under a tree, and half the time he stands in his pen in the hot sun instead of under the shed!
*authentic as in Ray Hunt lived down the road about ten miles
posted by BlueHorse at 11:17 PM on July 29, 2012 [4 favorites]
I'm in the process of breaking the neighbor's ornery 6 year old Quarter Horse to stand tied. He was constantly fussing with his lead rope, pulling back, untying himself, pawing big holes in the ground, or if tied to the trailer, pawing on the fenders, so he's getting religion tied to my hitch rail with rubber mats that make pawing not near as fun. He gets tied at 8 AM and stands all day in the sun. I offer him a drink at ten, two, and four, and untie him, walk him around, and tie him back up. After six days, he's much better, but still not completely finished with fooling around. Had the owners done a little when he was a colt, there wouldn't be near this much work involved.
I've another neighbor that thinks I'm so awful and cruel to tie poor horsie up so long, but it's not her expensive trailer getting torn up, either. I also notice her horses are rude and nasty to handle which is dangerous. My eight year old granddaughter goes out and catches mine in the 40 acre field by herself, and she isn't so great with knots, so when she ties them, it's more like a hint than a knot. But they stay where they're put! Mr. Quarter Horse will stand tied to his post for a month if that's what it takes to sink in. Repetition is the key to training a horse. Besides, what else would he be doing but standing out in his pen anyway. At least the hitch rail is under a tree, and half the time he stands in his pen in the hot sun instead of under the shed!
*authentic as in Ray Hunt lived down the road about ten miles
posted by BlueHorse at 11:17 PM on July 29, 2012 [4 favorites]
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posted by hermitosis at 5:44 PM on July 29, 2012