How to deal with friend who owes me money coming back into my life
June 7, 2012 3:19 PM Subscribe
I lent money to my friend, didn't get it back. I learned my lesson and wrote it off. Now she's back in my life. What do I do?
Three years ago I lent some money to my (at the time) very good friend for a vacation we were both going on - about $500. We went on the vacation, friend said she would pay it back, but didn't eventually. A few months later she moved out of the country.
At first, we stayed in touch a a bit. I would ask her about the money a few times during the first year. She always said she would pay it back soon, got my account info etc. She didn't. After a year we sort of stopped talking. I eventually resolved to write off the money - never lend money to a friend, or if you do consider it a gift, right? I was a little hurt that she would let the guilt of the loan come between our friendship, but people move on.
Last year she was in town and I met her for a party. We talked a little and it was pleasant, and she said (without me prompting me) that about the money, she was of course going to pay me back soon. I said sure, whatever. Now, a month ago she moved back to town. We still have the same mutual friends and will see each other occasionally. Last time we said hi and were polite. Now I'm seeing her at another party this weekend.
Should I let her know that I've given up on getting the money back, hoping that we can be (at least sort of) friendly again? If so, what should I say without sounding angry/stuck in the past? Should I not say anything?
Tell me how to handle this!
Three years ago I lent some money to my (at the time) very good friend for a vacation we were both going on - about $500. We went on the vacation, friend said she would pay it back, but didn't eventually. A few months later she moved out of the country.
At first, we stayed in touch a a bit. I would ask her about the money a few times during the first year. She always said she would pay it back soon, got my account info etc. She didn't. After a year we sort of stopped talking. I eventually resolved to write off the money - never lend money to a friend, or if you do consider it a gift, right? I was a little hurt that she would let the guilt of the loan come between our friendship, but people move on.
Last year she was in town and I met her for a party. We talked a little and it was pleasant, and she said (without me prompting me) that about the money, she was of course going to pay me back soon. I said sure, whatever. Now, a month ago she moved back to town. We still have the same mutual friends and will see each other occasionally. Last time we said hi and were polite. Now I'm seeing her at another party this weekend.
Should I let her know that I've given up on getting the money back, hoping that we can be (at least sort of) friendly again? If so, what should I say without sounding angry/stuck in the past? Should I not say anything?
Tell me how to handle this!
Personally, I would bring it up as a joke, and give a gentle ribbing every other time (or so) it was relevant in conversation. That way you are still nice, friendly, and understanding, but have clearly not forgotten.
Things like:
-Oh, no, I've got it, I can just tack it on to the vacation bill :-)
-Your receptionist hasn't gotten back to my office about the invoice, can you push that through?
-Oh that sounds like so much fun, let's go together! This one is on you :-)
-Watch out Johnny, Sally is a grifter, she will totally hustle you for a vacation and flee the country...
It is an exaggeratedly absurd brand of funny but I think it fits here...
posted by milqman at 3:28 PM on June 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
Things like:
-Oh, no, I've got it, I can just tack it on to the vacation bill :-)
-Your receptionist hasn't gotten back to my office about the invoice, can you push that through?
-Oh that sounds like so much fun, let's go together! This one is on you :-)
-Watch out Johnny, Sally is a grifter, she will totally hustle you for a vacation and flee the country...
It is an exaggeratedly absurd brand of funny but I think it fits here...
posted by milqman at 3:28 PM on June 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
You could take her aside and say, "Hey, it's great to have you back and to hang out with you again. I know this issue about the loan I gave you has been a little awkward, and it's a lot of money. Maybe we could work out a payment plan so it won't be too hard on you and we can both get past this?"
I wouldn't joke about it, it seems passive-aggressive. And I don't know about you, but I'd find it hard not to resent her if I wrote the whole thing off.
posted by chickenmagazine at 3:32 PM on June 7, 2012 [56 favorites]
I wouldn't joke about it, it seems passive-aggressive. And I don't know about you, but I'd find it hard not to resent her if I wrote the whole thing off.
posted by chickenmagazine at 3:32 PM on June 7, 2012 [56 favorites]
Can you contact her ahead of the party and let her know you're going to be there and you'd love to clear up the money lending issue in person?
If she approaches you easily and happily to discuss, she'd probably very much like to repay you and get this behind her as well. She may need the prompt to take the opportunity to show up with a check or cash or whatever.
Sometimes people have the best of intentions and get waylaid by life. She sounds like she's in that boat.
posted by griselda at 3:35 PM on June 7, 2012
If she approaches you easily and happily to discuss, she'd probably very much like to repay you and get this behind her as well. She may need the prompt to take the opportunity to show up with a check or cash or whatever.
Sometimes people have the best of intentions and get waylaid by life. She sounds like she's in that boat.
posted by griselda at 3:35 PM on June 7, 2012
I done what you're considering. A friend of a friend sublet my room and stiffed my roomates for a bunch of bills that added up to about $300. I made good on his debts, since he had already left the country before I returned. A few years later, I met him at a birthday party, got drunk and forgave the loan. I don't want to sound petty but I still feel like a bit of a dork, 30 years later.
She won't be grateful, she'll only think that she put one over on you.
posted by bonobothegreat at 3:35 PM on June 7, 2012
She won't be grateful, she'll only think that she put one over on you.
posted by bonobothegreat at 3:35 PM on June 7, 2012
Well, which do you want more, the money or the friendship?
If you keep asking her about the money, you might get it, you might not, but it's probably going to damage the friendship at least somewhat, and there's a chance it'll kill it completely. By doing that, you're building a negative association in her mind, and most people can't stand to feel guilty, so she'll just avoid you - possibly even after she pays you back. (If she does.)
If you really just want the friendship and can genuinely write the money off, then do it. Forget about it. Never mention it. If she brings it up, shrug and change the subject. (If she hands you a check, give her a hug and say "Hey, thanks, I really appreciate that!" and then never speak of it again.)
Either way is reasonable. She really does owe you the money. So you just need to figure out what your priorities are.
posted by restless_nomad at 3:36 PM on June 7, 2012 [5 favorites]
If you keep asking her about the money, you might get it, you might not, but it's probably going to damage the friendship at least somewhat, and there's a chance it'll kill it completely. By doing that, you're building a negative association in her mind, and most people can't stand to feel guilty, so she'll just avoid you - possibly even after she pays you back. (If she does.)
If you really just want the friendship and can genuinely write the money off, then do it. Forget about it. Never mention it. If she brings it up, shrug and change the subject. (If she hands you a check, give her a hug and say "Hey, thanks, I really appreciate that!" and then never speak of it again.)
Either way is reasonable. She really does owe you the money. So you just need to figure out what your priorities are.
posted by restless_nomad at 3:36 PM on June 7, 2012 [5 favorites]
You've already written it off, so don't bring it up anymore. It never happened. If she brings it up as a "I'll pay you back someday" say ok but don't push it; if she gives you the money be surprised and grateful, but otherwise just act like it never happened.
posted by ook at 3:38 PM on June 7, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by ook at 3:38 PM on June 7, 2012 [3 favorites]
I guess you could keep bringing this up, but I think if she really intends to pay the money back she'll do it. I'm not sure why you think she'll actually hand it over this time.
I feel for you because this has got to be like having a pebble in your shoe. But there it is. I would expect nothing.
posted by tel3path at 3:39 PM on June 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
I feel for you because this has got to be like having a pebble in your shoe. But there it is. I would expect nothing.
posted by tel3path at 3:39 PM on June 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
I would email her, because I am always in favor (for myself) of the ostrich approach. But I think what The World Famous said is good. So I would email a version of that, or even something shorter..."It's great to see you and I'm so glad you're back in town but every time I see you I feel this money issue is standing between us. What do you want to do about this once and for all?"
posted by bquarters at 3:43 PM on June 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by bquarters at 3:43 PM on June 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
If getting the money isn't especially important to you, I'd say:
"Hey, I know you mentioned that $500 last time I saw you. Just so you know, it's not a big deal. If you can pay me back sometime, that's cool. Otherwise, don't worry about it."
Without any more specific information about her and your financial situations, I wouldn't venture to give more specific advice than that.
posted by GnomeChompsky at 3:46 PM on June 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
"Hey, I know you mentioned that $500 last time I saw you. Just so you know, it's not a big deal. If you can pay me back sometime, that's cool. Otherwise, don't worry about it."
Without any more specific information about her and your financial situations, I wouldn't venture to give more specific advice than that.
posted by GnomeChompsky at 3:46 PM on June 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
Yeah, what GnomeChompsky said. But please don't "jokingly" keep bringing it up, especially to imply jokingly that she's a grifter or something.
posted by grueandbleen at 3:49 PM on June 7, 2012 [6 favorites]
posted by grueandbleen at 3:49 PM on June 7, 2012 [6 favorites]
You guys have discussed money multiple times in the past, and your "friend" has promised to pay multiple times in the past.
There is no point in bringing it up again, and I don't see why you should bother try to make things less awkward.
You're in the right here, and you have every right to not have to worry about her feelings in this regard.
If she feels awkward about meeting you at parties, that's entirely her problem. Let her bring it up.
If you make the first move, it really could be interpreted as an expression of weakness on your part.
If she mentions it at the party, I would just say that unless she has the money in hand, she should NEVER mention it to you again. Making a payment plan is just a recipe for more broken promises.
You have nothing to feel awkward or uncomfortable about. But you should also remember that you are no longer friends, because friends do not treat friends like you have been treated.
posted by KokuRyu at 3:49 PM on June 7, 2012 [3 favorites]
There is no point in bringing it up again, and I don't see why you should bother try to make things less awkward.
You're in the right here, and you have every right to not have to worry about her feelings in this regard.
If she feels awkward about meeting you at parties, that's entirely her problem. Let her bring it up.
If you make the first move, it really could be interpreted as an expression of weakness on your part.
If she mentions it at the party, I would just say that unless she has the money in hand, she should NEVER mention it to you again. Making a payment plan is just a recipe for more broken promises.
You have nothing to feel awkward or uncomfortable about. But you should also remember that you are no longer friends, because friends do not treat friends like you have been treated.
posted by KokuRyu at 3:49 PM on June 7, 2012 [3 favorites]
Should I let her know that I've given up on getting the money back, hoping that we can be (at least sort of) friendly again? If so, what should I say without sounding angry/stuck in the past? Should I not say anything?
Had this been money that you lent her because she was about to be evicted or needed to go to the doctor, I can see forgiving the loan and moving on. In this case, I think you'd be opening up yourself for more exploitation. If hers is a friendship worth having, she will be committed to discussing it with you and figuring out a way to pay you back. I definitely think you should say something.
posted by Wordwoman at 3:51 PM on June 7, 2012 [3 favorites]
Had this been money that you lent her because she was about to be evicted or needed to go to the doctor, I can see forgiving the loan and moving on. In this case, I think you'd be opening up yourself for more exploitation. If hers is a friendship worth having, she will be committed to discussing it with you and figuring out a way to pay you back. I definitely think you should say something.
posted by Wordwoman at 3:51 PM on June 7, 2012 [3 favorites]
I think I would try to strike the middle ground. You wouldn't be WRONG to dun her, nor should she resent it, but guess what - I doubt it will be productive.
There's a tendency to treat something like this like an open loop. But it isn't for you. It's just a thing in your common history. At this point if you get the money it'll be like a bonus to you. Maybe she'll pay you back, maybe she won't. Really no point in reminding her or talking to her. She's brought it up repeatedly, but she's the kind of person who borrows money and doesn't really worry about repaying it, apparently. She can afford to move around the world and go to parties, but she can't pay $500? So you can put it out of your mind. Nothing really to be done; move on. No need to "forgive" her the debt by saying something to her. If you think it will make a person like this feel bad, forget it, nor do you owe her this type of explanation to mitigate her own bad behavior.
As I so often seem to in cases like this, I'll point out the difference between being friendly and being friends. Saying "hi" and not making a scene in a case like this is not being a chump; it's just being civilized. Going out of your way to maintain a friendship with a person like this IS being a chump, as she's apparently not trustworthy.
posted by randomkeystrike at 3:52 PM on June 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
There's a tendency to treat something like this like an open loop. But it isn't for you. It's just a thing in your common history. At this point if you get the money it'll be like a bonus to you. Maybe she'll pay you back, maybe she won't. Really no point in reminding her or talking to her. She's brought it up repeatedly, but she's the kind of person who borrows money and doesn't really worry about repaying it, apparently. She can afford to move around the world and go to parties, but she can't pay $500? So you can put it out of your mind. Nothing really to be done; move on. No need to "forgive" her the debt by saying something to her. If you think it will make a person like this feel bad, forget it, nor do you owe her this type of explanation to mitigate her own bad behavior.
As I so often seem to in cases like this, I'll point out the difference between being friendly and being friends. Saying "hi" and not making a scene in a case like this is not being a chump; it's just being civilized. Going out of your way to maintain a friendship with a person like this IS being a chump, as she's apparently not trustworthy.
posted by randomkeystrike at 3:52 PM on June 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't write the money off yet... as you said, you gave up on getting it back when she skidaddled out of the country, but now she's back. I'd take her aside and say something like what chickenmagazine suggested.
Even then, I'd still expect nothing from her, but I would also not want to be friends anymore with someone who would basically rob a good pal of $500. I mean, it was $500 for a vacation - a luxury - not for her dog to have life saving surgery, or some other emergency. I might forgive the loan if my friend was destitute and paying any part of it back would be a real hardship, but I would have a lot of trouble relating on a personal level to someone who was partying away on my $500.
posted by keep it under cover at 3:53 PM on June 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
Even then, I'd still expect nothing from her, but I would also not want to be friends anymore with someone who would basically rob a good pal of $500. I mean, it was $500 for a vacation - a luxury - not for her dog to have life saving surgery, or some other emergency. I might forgive the loan if my friend was destitute and paying any part of it back would be a real hardship, but I would have a lot of trouble relating on a personal level to someone who was partying away on my $500.
posted by keep it under cover at 3:53 PM on June 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
Do not bring it up at the party. That's not the time or place to do so. You need to ask this woman out for coffee so that you two can have a one-on-one chat. This doesn't have to be an aggressive type of confrontation, I'd actually refrain from doing that. But, make it a casual part of the conversation.
She clearly knows that she owes you the money which is why she brought it up. So, don't be afraid to have this type of dialogue:
You: Remember when we went on that vacation together?
Her: Yeah, that was so much fun!
You: Well, I've been thinking about what you said at the last party after you came back. And, I could really use the $500 that I lent you a while ago. Do you think you could have the money ready for me by [this date] because I'm sort of low on cash right now"
You may have won the lottery and may not even be low on cash, but she doesn't need to know that. That was your money. You worked hard for that money. It's not like you just bought her a $5 coffee or paid for a $50 meal as a treat to be kind, you paid for her FIVE HUNDRED DOLLAR VACATION.
You are low on cash because you paid for someone's vacation and never got the money back. Playing the "it's cool either way" approach most likely will just involve you two going back and forth on passive-aggressive type of cues or dialogue as you wait for the money which you should have received a LONG time ago.
I've been involved in this type of situation and quite frankly, it leads to tension in the relationship which can be difficult to move past if it remains unresolved.
posted by livinglearning at 3:54 PM on June 7, 2012 [2 favorites]
She clearly knows that she owes you the money which is why she brought it up. So, don't be afraid to have this type of dialogue:
You: Remember when we went on that vacation together?
Her: Yeah, that was so much fun!
You: Well, I've been thinking about what you said at the last party after you came back. And, I could really use the $500 that I lent you a while ago. Do you think you could have the money ready for me by [this date] because I'm sort of low on cash right now"
You may have won the lottery and may not even be low on cash, but she doesn't need to know that. That was your money. You worked hard for that money. It's not like you just bought her a $5 coffee or paid for a $50 meal as a treat to be kind, you paid for her FIVE HUNDRED DOLLAR VACATION.
You are low on cash because you paid for someone's vacation and never got the money back. Playing the "it's cool either way" approach most likely will just involve you two going back and forth on passive-aggressive type of cues or dialogue as you wait for the money which you should have received a LONG time ago.
I've been involved in this type of situation and quite frankly, it leads to tension in the relationship which can be difficult to move past if it remains unresolved.
posted by livinglearning at 3:54 PM on June 7, 2012 [2 favorites]
tel3path has the analogy exactly right.
The action of taking the pebble out of your shoe is part of the relief. You would barely notice if it fell out itself; in fact, you'd keep probing with your toe to see if it's still there.
GnomeChompsky's line is a good compromise: Allow the possibility that she'll pay you, but make it clear that you don't expect it, then take a specific action to put the issue in the past for both of you.
A slap, a kiss, a high-five.... I prefer a toast and a stiff drink, since it's gender-neutral and acts as a natural transition to a new topic. "To Paris !".
Then give yourself permission to forget about it. Remember the life lesson, but I'll bet you $500 that you feel ten pounds lighter after that drink.
posted by Kakkerlak at 4:04 PM on June 7, 2012
The action of taking the pebble out of your shoe is part of the relief. You would barely notice if it fell out itself; in fact, you'd keep probing with your toe to see if it's still there.
GnomeChompsky's line is a good compromise: Allow the possibility that she'll pay you, but make it clear that you don't expect it, then take a specific action to put the issue in the past for both of you.
A slap, a kiss, a high-five.... I prefer a toast and a stiff drink, since it's gender-neutral and acts as a natural transition to a new topic. "To Paris !".
Then give yourself permission to forget about it. Remember the life lesson, but I'll bet you $500 that you feel ten pounds lighter after that drink.
posted by Kakkerlak at 4:04 PM on June 7, 2012
If you actually want to be friendly with her again and not have things be constantly awkward, don't bother mentioning it. She clearly hasn't forgotten about it, so I don't see the point in bringing it up yet again. The fact that she keeps telling you she'll pay you back soon is an insult to your intelligence at this point, just something she says to appease you for the moment, and to tell her you've forgiven the loan only tells her she successfully got away with it.
Frankly, in your shoes, if I had a friend do this to me, the next time they said they'd pay me back "soon" I'd have a hard time not sniping back, "You know, if you actually meant that, you'd have done it by now." But since it seems you'll be stuck seeing her in social situations, that's probably not the best course to take.
posted by wondermouse at 4:10 PM on June 7, 2012
Frankly, in your shoes, if I had a friend do this to me, the next time they said they'd pay me back "soon" I'd have a hard time not sniping back, "You know, if you actually meant that, you'd have done it by now." But since it seems you'll be stuck seeing her in social situations, that's probably not the best course to take.
posted by wondermouse at 4:10 PM on June 7, 2012
Since you want to stay friends I won't try to discourage you from that, as forgiveness is a good thing. It would have to take place as part of a transaction like "I don't think you're really likely to give me the money back and I've already written it off, so please either give it to me or stop mentioning it."
However, I really suggest that you not ignore what this says about her character, you should adjust your trust levels accordingly. Like for example, I wouldn't let her hold my drink for me.
posted by tel3path at 4:32 PM on June 7, 2012 [2 favorites]
However, I really suggest that you not ignore what this says about her character, you should adjust your trust levels accordingly. Like for example, I wouldn't let her hold my drink for me.
posted by tel3path at 4:32 PM on June 7, 2012 [2 favorites]
At this point, I sincerely doubt you'll ever see that money again; as you say, lesson learned, never again lend money etc. Okay, you have, in your own mind, written this debt off: that's a good move, because the money's not worth your peace of mind.
BUT: I would not tell her that you consider this debt written off as uncollectable --- what the heck, she obviously remembers what she owes you, and if she's not gonna pay you back the money she can at least pay with her conscience! I would recommend that whenever you see her, you be polite but formal; don't try to renew the friendship (she's proven she is not your friend), and don't make arrangements to go out with her, whether it's for coffee or lunch or another vacation. As for things like this upcoming party, don't search her out, just say hello if you end up face-to-face, but then casually (and clearly) move on to talk to other people.
(Not quite the 'cut direct', but close.)
posted by easily confused at 4:35 PM on June 7, 2012 [2 favorites]
BUT: I would not tell her that you consider this debt written off as uncollectable --- what the heck, she obviously remembers what she owes you, and if she's not gonna pay you back the money she can at least pay with her conscience! I would recommend that whenever you see her, you be polite but formal; don't try to renew the friendship (she's proven she is not your friend), and don't make arrangements to go out with her, whether it's for coffee or lunch or another vacation. As for things like this upcoming party, don't search her out, just say hello if you end up face-to-face, but then casually (and clearly) move on to talk to other people.
(Not quite the 'cut direct', but close.)
posted by easily confused at 4:35 PM on June 7, 2012 [2 favorites]
Last year she was in town and I met her for a party. We talked a little and it was pleasant, and she said (without me prompting me) that about the money, she was of course going to pay me back soon.
In your position, if she brings it up again, I'd ask her what's stopping her from paying it back right now and/or what's been stopping her all along. Mainly I'd be asking out of genuine curiosity: what is it with people who do this? Do they think you don't need the money for some reason, or what? Your friend is interesting to me, because she's bringing it up after all this time, when you'd think she might figure you'd given up or forgotten. I almost get the feeling she's getting something out of having you on a string.
posted by BibiRose at 5:03 PM on June 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
In your position, if she brings it up again, I'd ask her what's stopping her from paying it back right now and/or what's been stopping her all along. Mainly I'd be asking out of genuine curiosity: what is it with people who do this? Do they think you don't need the money for some reason, or what? Your friend is interesting to me, because she's bringing it up after all this time, when you'd think she might figure you'd given up or forgotten. I almost get the feeling she's getting something out of having you on a string.
posted by BibiRose at 5:03 PM on June 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
My old roommate did this to everyone. Everyone. Complete with skipping the country and coming back years later to unsettled debts. I got my money because I asked her for it straight up, "a check is fine. I'm not doing anything right now, I'll wait" style. Lots of other people didn't.
Here is the deal: this person is not your friend. She is an accomplished moocher who can, basically, steal money and things from people and yet have them feel bad about it not her. She is not going to change. She may be friendly but she is NEVER going to be a friend. Youre a mark. She will never, ever help you out the same way. And she's used to people squeezing her for money, she is good at getting out of it but she will give you the money the second she knows it'll cost her more not to.
Given that how do you feel about confronting her?
posted by fshgrl at 5:09 PM on June 7, 2012 [15 favorites]
Here is the deal: this person is not your friend. She is an accomplished moocher who can, basically, steal money and things from people and yet have them feel bad about it not her. She is not going to change. She may be friendly but she is NEVER going to be a friend. Youre a mark. She will never, ever help you out the same way. And she's used to people squeezing her for money, she is good at getting out of it but she will give you the money the second she knows it'll cost her more not to.
Given that how do you feel about confronting her?
posted by fshgrl at 5:09 PM on June 7, 2012 [15 favorites]
Hmm, a tricky one. I would be inclined to say, if she brings it up again, "Well, Shelley, it was a few years ago now, and you've been promising to pay me back ever since. It would be nice to have the money back, but every time you mention it, I start spending the $500 in my head. So, if you don't have the money, or don't want to pay it back, that's okay, but you don't have to bring it up."
I would say it kindly, but I don't think giving your friend a free ride will ultimately help the friendship, or stop her from incessantly mentioning it. I have known people like this in my life, they are not necessarily bad people, in fact they are very good, generous people. They are just a) really, really bad at budgeting and managing their own finances, b) don't think of money in the same way I do, or that lending money indefinitely is a big deal.
posted by smoke at 5:53 PM on June 7, 2012 [3 favorites]
I would say it kindly, but I don't think giving your friend a free ride will ultimately help the friendship, or stop her from incessantly mentioning it. I have known people like this in my life, they are not necessarily bad people, in fact they are very good, generous people. They are just a) really, really bad at budgeting and managing their own finances, b) don't think of money in the same way I do, or that lending money indefinitely is a big deal.
posted by smoke at 5:53 PM on June 7, 2012 [3 favorites]
"Well, Shelley, it was a few years ago now, and you've been promising to pay me back ever since. It would be nice to have the money back, but every time you mention it, I start spending the $500 in my head. So, if you don't have the money, or don't want to pay it back, that's okay, but you don't have to bring it up."
I think this is great phrasing. I had a small falling out with a friend who borrowed money and could never quite pay it back, and it got to the point where the promises were as frustrating as the debt. This response correctly puts the responsibility back on the borrower: they are the one who needs to settle the debt, they are the one who needs to worry about backing up words with actions.
posted by lillygog at 6:34 PM on June 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
I think this is great phrasing. I had a small falling out with a friend who borrowed money and could never quite pay it back, and it got to the point where the promises were as frustrating as the debt. This response correctly puts the responsibility back on the borrower: they are the one who needs to settle the debt, they are the one who needs to worry about backing up words with actions.
posted by lillygog at 6:34 PM on June 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
"Given the scale of life in the cosmos, one human life is no more than a tiny blip. Each one of us is a just visitor to this planet, a guest, who will only stay for a limited time. What greater folly could there be than to spend this short time alone, unhappy or in conflict with our companions? Far better, surely, to use our short time here in living a meaningful life, enriched by our sense of connection with others and being of service to them."
Dalai Lama
Let go of it... You did once...
posted by HuronBob at 6:38 PM on June 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
Dalai Lama
Let go of it... You did once...
posted by HuronBob at 6:38 PM on June 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
I think you are way too nice. Someone who borrows money and then makes endless and insincere promises to pay it back is not a very good friend to have. It doesn't sound like there were extenuating circumstances. If you see her, and she brings it up, I'd say "You know, that's a lot of money for me, and I'd appreciate some action on paying it back. If you don't intend to pay it back, please stop bringing it up."
Friends are more important than money, absolutely. But a friend who takes advantage of you isn't such a good friend. You deserve good friends. If she's truly a good friend, meet for coffee, and talk about the money, and how/when she'll pay you back, or help you paint your living room, or whatever.
posted by Mom at 7:01 PM on June 7, 2012 [5 favorites]
Friends are more important than money, absolutely. But a friend who takes advantage of you isn't such a good friend. You deserve good friends. If she's truly a good friend, meet for coffee, and talk about the money, and how/when she'll pay you back, or help you paint your living room, or whatever.
posted by Mom at 7:01 PM on June 7, 2012 [5 favorites]
If you are truly able to forgive and forget the debt and would like to be friendly with her and not awkward, the amazingly gracious thing to do would be to never, ever mention it. And if she mentions the money, say firmly and with a sincere smile, "I consider it a gift." But you have to truly consider it a gift and as tuition in the school of life for this to work. This is really hard and insincerity will ruin it. I think this is an extremely strong position to take.
You are in your rights to do any of the things posted above. Do what is right for you.
Never lend her a dollar more.
posted by classa at 7:20 PM on June 7, 2012
You are in your rights to do any of the things posted above. Do what is right for you.
Never lend her a dollar more.
posted by classa at 7:20 PM on June 7, 2012
I have a very similar situation with a friend to whom I lent about $600 to cover rent (which was a HUGE deal to me then, but is much less so now) and who then left the country. Years later, we're living in the same city again and only see each other occasionally, but I can't imagine ever bringing it up. If he brought it up, saying something like "I'm totally going to pay you back soon," I'm certain I would say "If you can, it would be a nice windfall, but it's really nothing. It was long ago, right?"
posted by 256 at 8:05 PM on June 7, 2012
posted by 256 at 8:05 PM on June 7, 2012
My anonymous and context-free opinion is that @Mom nailed it perfectly.
posted by StrawberryPie at 8:29 PM on June 7, 2012
posted by StrawberryPie at 8:29 PM on June 7, 2012
I would ask her in front of a bunch of people what is the status of the money she owes you.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:25 PM on June 7, 2012
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:25 PM on June 7, 2012
Seconding ook's answer. I am reminded of the old saying "if you loan a friend $20 and never see them again, consider it $20 well spent." Unfortunately, in this case, it was $500 and you are seeing her again, but at least you know not to loan her any more money and to keep your distance from now on.
posted by melangell at 10:38 PM on June 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by melangell at 10:38 PM on June 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
Don't explicitly let her off the hook. $500 is a serious chunk of change & she hasn't forgotten about it. I would argue a real friend would have made some effort, even if it was $20 here & there, to pay it back. At the very least, you should never need to buy a drink of your own in her company until you estimate that money has been paid back. That said, you have made peace with knowing you won't get it back, & I think that's the emotionally healthy approach, so I wouldn't ask her about it. Just treat her the same way you would if this whole money thing never entered the equation, & see how it plays out. If it gets weird, you can specifically talk about it, but I think telling her you forgave the loan or assumed she would never pay it back at this point could backfire. The first one leaves you open to being taken advantage of again & she could take offense to the second because you have come to such a low estimation of her character (even if it is supported by the facts). She kinda screwed you. For your own benefit, I wouldn't hold onto it or stew over it, but I wouldn't let her off scot free either. She may pleasantly surprise you and come through with the money in the end.
posted by katemcd at 11:52 PM on June 7, 2012
posted by katemcd at 11:52 PM on June 7, 2012
I don't think you should say anything. This person sold your goodwill and trust for a $500 vacation.
Basically, you owe it to your hosts and your other friends to behave politely to her, but the awkwardness isn't your problem - she's in the wrong, she knows it, she's not doing anything to make it right, and she's compounding her wrongness with the insult of empty promises. You did nothing wrong. Let her worry about how to handle it - have fun with your other friends and treat her politely but keep an arm's length.
Where it will get tricky is if she ever pays you back - but worry about that if it happens.
posted by gingerest at 12:00 AM on June 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
Basically, you owe it to your hosts and your other friends to behave politely to her, but the awkwardness isn't your problem - she's in the wrong, she knows it, she's not doing anything to make it right, and she's compounding her wrongness with the insult of empty promises. You did nothing wrong. Let her worry about how to handle it - have fun with your other friends and treat her politely but keep an arm's length.
Where it will get tricky is if she ever pays you back - but worry about that if it happens.
posted by gingerest at 12:00 AM on June 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
> "Hey there! It was great to see you at X's barbecue. Isn't [person] [adjective]? Anyway, awkward topic, but you brought up the $500 you owe me and I've kinda written it off so it was a little weird for me. My address is below so you can mail me a check if it's really hanging over you, but if not, that's fine too. Either way, you don't really need to bring it up again, it's not an issue for me. Have fun at [other thing you talked about!] OP
Yep, this, pretty much exactly what I was going to say. My version would include a few tweaks:
Replace "you owe me" with "I lent you" to avoid a guilty non-loan-paying-person feeling like you're jabbing them in the gut with guilt.
Replace "kinda written it off" with "that was a pretty long time ago" to avoid a looking-for-excuse person to interpret this as nevermind, it's a gift, bah, don't bother thinking of giving me my $500 back.
posted by desuetude at 12:05 AM on June 8, 2012
Yep, this, pretty much exactly what I was going to say. My version would include a few tweaks:
Replace "you owe me" with "I lent you" to avoid a guilty non-loan-paying-person feeling like you're jabbing them in the gut with guilt.
Replace "kinda written it off" with "that was a pretty long time ago" to avoid a looking-for-excuse person to interpret this as nevermind, it's a gift, bah, don't bother thinking of giving me my $500 back.
posted by desuetude at 12:05 AM on June 8, 2012
I almost get the feeling she's getting something out of having you on a string.
I think you should factor in this possibility in future dealings with her. I had a friend who borrowed three books from me, two of them rare, and then played keepaway with them for a couple of years. Every time I asked for them it was an opportunity for her to tell me what was wrong with me (I was so disagreeable that the thought of meeting me to return the books was too distasteful for her to cope with; I was so unempathic about her difficult life living at two different addresses; etc).
Finally, just before she left the country, she gave back two of the books, both of which were the rare ones (this was pre-Internet so rare books, once lost, couldn't be replaced). The third one was more easily replaceable. I understood that returning the books was a gesture of closure for her since she didn't intend ever to contact me again, and she needed to keep the third book so she wouldn't feel like she'd given up all of her power.
So I would question whether it's worth getting into a power struggle over $500 since she has this set up as a win-win situation for her - either she keeps your $500 or you beat your head against a brick wall trying to get it back. I think you have two choices, either tell her you forgive the debt or else try to take legal action. You could find out from a lawyer what, if any, recourse you have to get the money returned, and tell her once that you'd like the money returned by $DATE and then take her to court when she fails to come through yet again.
By forgiving the debt, you're only setting yourself up to get cheated again if you give her the opportunity to cheat you. No going for dinner with her because you can't count on her to pay her half, that kind of thing. Basically you never do anything with her again which would cost you the slightest inconvenience if she dropped the ball on any aspect of it. And the second time she even tries to put one over on you, you should end the friendship with no explanation. This isn't harsh, because she can always earn it back.
posted by tel3path at 3:54 AM on June 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
I think you should factor in this possibility in future dealings with her. I had a friend who borrowed three books from me, two of them rare, and then played keepaway with them for a couple of years. Every time I asked for them it was an opportunity for her to tell me what was wrong with me (I was so disagreeable that the thought of meeting me to return the books was too distasteful for her to cope with; I was so unempathic about her difficult life living at two different addresses; etc).
Finally, just before she left the country, she gave back two of the books, both of which were the rare ones (this was pre-Internet so rare books, once lost, couldn't be replaced). The third one was more easily replaceable. I understood that returning the books was a gesture of closure for her since she didn't intend ever to contact me again, and she needed to keep the third book so she wouldn't feel like she'd given up all of her power.
So I would question whether it's worth getting into a power struggle over $500 since she has this set up as a win-win situation for her - either she keeps your $500 or you beat your head against a brick wall trying to get it back. I think you have two choices, either tell her you forgive the debt or else try to take legal action. You could find out from a lawyer what, if any, recourse you have to get the money returned, and tell her once that you'd like the money returned by $DATE and then take her to court when she fails to come through yet again.
By forgiving the debt, you're only setting yourself up to get cheated again if you give her the opportunity to cheat you. No going for dinner with her because you can't count on her to pay her half, that kind of thing. Basically you never do anything with her again which would cost you the slightest inconvenience if she dropped the ball on any aspect of it. And the second time she even tries to put one over on you, you should end the friendship with no explanation. This isn't harsh, because she can always earn it back.
posted by tel3path at 3:54 AM on June 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
I think your best move is to have her buy you something and call it square. You say want to absolve her guilt and end the matter.
So if you're really and truly over it, make it a drink. If you can joke about a $500 drink then you probably have written it off.
(If you think you need a little more on your side of the balance sheet—and you think she's not just broke—you could propose that she buy you a gift on her credit card. A specific thing that you name and costs less than $500. That way she doesn't have to come up with $X00 loose cash all at once and the bank handles the payment plan. This might be kind of awkward to propose, though, and might lead to uncovering more dodgy behavior that you'd rather just never see again.)
posted by fleacircus at 5:52 AM on June 8, 2012
So if you're really and truly over it, make it a drink. If you can joke about a $500 drink then you probably have written it off.
(If you think you need a little more on your side of the balance sheet—and you think she's not just broke—you could propose that she buy you a gift on her credit card. A specific thing that you name and costs less than $500. That way she doesn't have to come up with $X00 loose cash all at once and the bank handles the payment plan. This might be kind of awkward to propose, though, and might lead to uncovering more dodgy behavior that you'd rather just never see again.)
posted by fleacircus at 5:52 AM on June 8, 2012
Oh, no, I've got it, I can just tack it on to the vacation bill :-)
No, no, don't go the passive-agressive route; that will ruin the friendship faster than the money issue itself.
If you've truly written it off, then that $500 becomes a gift, whether your friend knows it or not; you don't keep pestering friends about how much past gifts cost.
If she keeps offering to pay, take that as a reminder that your friend still cares about you, and understands that they got an unreasonable benefit from their friendship with you -- that doesn't mean they'll ever actually pay you back, but it does show they understand their inebtedness to you, which you should file away and remember the next time they need your help or want something from you.
That doesn't mean to blackmail; it means that past experience shows this friend is willing to accept large money from friends without paying them back -- use that in your decision making process when similar future events come to pass. If the last time went well, then do it again; if you don't want to go down that road, then you're justified in declining.
And, then, if the planets align and suddenly your friend shows up with a good $500 check, bonus! Then, adjust your knowledge to be that this friend borrows large amounts of money and takes a painfully long time to repay, but does repay eventually.
Regardless of the status of the debt, you've still got a friend, and the conflict between you two is minimized. It sounds like minimizing conflict is your objective, but estabilshing discussions about the money, when you don't have a critical reason to be paid back right now, will cause stress in the relationship.
posted by AzraelBrown at 6:38 AM on June 8, 2012
No, no, don't go the passive-agressive route; that will ruin the friendship faster than the money issue itself.
If you've truly written it off, then that $500 becomes a gift, whether your friend knows it or not; you don't keep pestering friends about how much past gifts cost.
If she keeps offering to pay, take that as a reminder that your friend still cares about you, and understands that they got an unreasonable benefit from their friendship with you -- that doesn't mean they'll ever actually pay you back, but it does show they understand their inebtedness to you, which you should file away and remember the next time they need your help or want something from you.
That doesn't mean to blackmail; it means that past experience shows this friend is willing to accept large money from friends without paying them back -- use that in your decision making process when similar future events come to pass. If the last time went well, then do it again; if you don't want to go down that road, then you're justified in declining.
And, then, if the planets align and suddenly your friend shows up with a good $500 check, bonus! Then, adjust your knowledge to be that this friend borrows large amounts of money and takes a painfully long time to repay, but does repay eventually.
Regardless of the status of the debt, you've still got a friend, and the conflict between you two is minimized. It sounds like minimizing conflict is your objective, but estabilshing discussions about the money, when you don't have a critical reason to be paid back right now, will cause stress in the relationship.
posted by AzraelBrown at 6:38 AM on June 8, 2012
Perhaps you could assume the best a little bit here - next time she says she'll pay it, respond by making plans as concrete and as soon as possible - something like:
"oh that's so great, I could really use the cash: How about we walk over the cash machine right now?"
Or "Yeah thanks so much, how about I come around to your place tomorrow at x time and you can write me a cheque?"
Say it calmly but confidently, and look her in the eye so she knows you really are expecting this cash back.
Because some people geniunely mean to follow through on their promises, but are a bit disorganised and forgetful - in which case this approach helps her to still meet your needs. Other people just trade on your goodwill and disguise themselves as forgetful when they really have no intention to pay it back - in which case I would think you want to know that before deciding to go back to being friends again.
posted by EatMyHat at 7:40 AM on June 8, 2012
"oh that's so great, I could really use the cash: How about we walk over the cash machine right now?"
Or "Yeah thanks so much, how about I come around to your place tomorrow at x time and you can write me a cheque?"
Say it calmly but confidently, and look her in the eye so she knows you really are expecting this cash back.
Because some people geniunely mean to follow through on their promises, but are a bit disorganised and forgetful - in which case this approach helps her to still meet your needs. Other people just trade on your goodwill and disguise themselves as forgetful when they really have no intention to pay it back - in which case I would think you want to know that before deciding to go back to being friends again.
posted by EatMyHat at 7:40 AM on June 8, 2012
Replace "you owe me" with "I lent you" to avoid a guilty non-loan-paying-person feeling like you're jabbing them in the gut with guilt.
Seriously?! Your "friend" borrowed $500 for a vacation and keeps bringing it up, yet not paying you back? Poor baby. They deserve to feel guilty. Everyone who has said this person isn't really acting like a friend is right. I see no point in trying to make your friend feel better about this.
posted by Jemstar at 7:54 AM on June 8, 2012
Seriously?! Your "friend" borrowed $500 for a vacation and keeps bringing it up, yet not paying you back? Poor baby. They deserve to feel guilty. Everyone who has said this person isn't really acting like a friend is right. I see no point in trying to make your friend feel better about this.
posted by Jemstar at 7:54 AM on June 8, 2012
tel3path:I had a friend who borrowed three books from me, two of them rare, and then played keepaway with them for a couple of years.
Yes! That is exactly what that behavior seems like to me. There are people who borrow money with no intention of paying back, or just decide it would be very easy not to pay it back. And there are people who mean to pay back, but just don't get around to it. And then there are people who seem to like the dynamic that owing something creates. It's like some people are chronically late because they don't manage schedules well or don't have a good sense of time, and others actually use it for some kind of leverage in relationships. It's really hard for people who don't operate that way to understand: like, you really want to focus all this negative attention on yourself? Which in turn makes it easier for them to get away with it. (People who don't think that way will trust them over and over again because acting like that is not in their frame of reference.)
I think the person here is very likely playing some kind of game. Because this situation is so very optional. She comes back after a year and starts bringing it up again? It's important to her to do this, for some reason.
posted by BibiRose at 8:19 AM on June 8, 2012 [3 favorites]
Yes! That is exactly what that behavior seems like to me. There are people who borrow money with no intention of paying back, or just decide it would be very easy not to pay it back. And there are people who mean to pay back, but just don't get around to it. And then there are people who seem to like the dynamic that owing something creates. It's like some people are chronically late because they don't manage schedules well or don't have a good sense of time, and others actually use it for some kind of leverage in relationships. It's really hard for people who don't operate that way to understand: like, you really want to focus all this negative attention on yourself? Which in turn makes it easier for them to get away with it. (People who don't think that way will trust them over and over again because acting like that is not in their frame of reference.)
I think the person here is very likely playing some kind of game. Because this situation is so very optional. She comes back after a year and starts bringing it up again? It's important to her to do this, for some reason.
posted by BibiRose at 8:19 AM on June 8, 2012 [3 favorites]
Three years? And she's paid back zero? Write it off and don't bring it up again. You aren't getting the money back. And if you write it off and you do get it back, it will be a nice surprise.
I can't condone letting her off the hook by re-engaging in the friendship. I would be very polite, but not at all engaging.
I also can't understand the folks who are worried that something you say is going to affect your friendship. Since when did offending someone who owes you money become worse than making off with $500?
Call me cranky and out of touch.
posted by cnc at 1:11 PM on June 8, 2012 [3 favorites]
I can't condone letting her off the hook by re-engaging in the friendship. I would be very polite, but not at all engaging.
I also can't understand the folks who are worried that something you say is going to affect your friendship. Since when did offending someone who owes you money become worse than making off with $500?
Call me cranky and out of touch.
posted by cnc at 1:11 PM on June 8, 2012 [3 favorites]
> Seriously?! Your "friend" borrowed $500 for a vacation and keeps bringing it up, yet not paying you back? Poor baby. They deserve to feel guilty. Everyone who has said this person isn't really acting like a friend is right. I see no point in trying to make your friend feel better about this.
Actively making her feel guilty about the money accomplishes neither of the OP's goals.
The OP has moved on regarding the money and wants the old friend to stop bringing it up. Anonymous would like to be friendly with the old friend. Suggestions were requested for what to say to get this across.
posted by desuetude at 3:24 PM on June 8, 2012
Actively making her feel guilty about the money accomplishes neither of the OP's goals.
The OP has moved on regarding the money and wants the old friend to stop bringing it up. Anonymous would like to be friendly with the old friend. Suggestions were requested for what to say to get this across.
posted by desuetude at 3:24 PM on June 8, 2012
Can you get an Automatic Payment or Direct Debit form?
The charitable view is that she is disorganized, and overwhelmed by how long she has owed you this money, and the longer it's gone on, the more paralyzed she has gotten about taking any action.
Alternatively, she's not someone you need to worry about offending.
In either case, offer her the form, pre-filled with your details, and tell her that you don't want the debt to be a big deal, so how about she just pays you $30-40 a week, until it is paid off. Done.
If she's a decent person, she'll be relieved to have an easy way out, that she doesn't have to think about. Win-win.
If she doesn't ever do anything with the form, don't talk to her again.
posted by Elysum at 6:09 PM on June 11, 2012
The charitable view is that she is disorganized, and overwhelmed by how long she has owed you this money, and the longer it's gone on, the more paralyzed she has gotten about taking any action.
Alternatively, she's not someone you need to worry about offending.
In either case, offer her the form, pre-filled with your details, and tell her that you don't want the debt to be a big deal, so how about she just pays you $30-40 a week, until it is paid off. Done.
If she's a decent person, she'll be relieved to have an easy way out, that she doesn't have to think about. Win-win.
If she doesn't ever do anything with the form, don't talk to her again.
posted by Elysum at 6:09 PM on June 11, 2012
This thread is closed to new comments.
What is her financial situation like? If it's difficult, you can be an understanding friend and say you're happy to accept payment of juts $100 per month to make things easier on her.
posted by Pomo at 3:21 PM on June 7, 2012 [4 favorites]