Breaking up is hard to do when it's family.
March 6, 2012 2:23 PM Subscribe
My dad cut all ties with me and my siblings and left the country. Now he's back and has repaired his relationship with my siblings...but not with me. What do I do? (It's a long one.)
My dad is a child, seriously. He has a history of running if things aren't going his way. He quits jobs about every 1-2 years, almost always because a workmate has it in for him (he says). He has been married twice and engaged several times. He never lives in the same house for long. He is bad with money and has no assets at all - in fact when he left the country he was about to be declared bankrupt and he owed his previous girlfriend thousands of dollars. In the past I have called the cops on him and got him counselling when he threatened to commit suicide and took off - my brother killed himself a few years ago and I have no tolerance for this from someone who knows the impact suicide has. I have supported him financially in minor ways and have been as supportive as I can while being as honest as I can with him when he changes jobs, or leaves his latest girlfriend, or spends all his money on a flatscreen TV.
So that's a bit of background. For my part, I didn't meet him until I was 18 - I was the result of a one-night stand. I have two half-sisters, K and C, and a deceased half-brother through him. K, C and I are reasonably close. I am 36 so I have known him for half my life and until recently he was involved in my family, looking after my kids, visiting regularly, etc. Prior to that I was raised first by my grandfather, who (I found out as an adult) stole my college money that my mother had been putting away for me, and then by my mother and adopted father, who was a physically abusive alcoholic. I had severed any ties to the previous father figures in my life.
Last November, around the anniversary of my brother's death, my sisters and I received a series of abusive text-messages from our dad. He said he was going to cut himself off from all of us and not come to C's wedding. My sisters responded; I didn't, to avoid escalating the drama. I expected he'd been drinking and would be regretting it the next day and pretending it hadn't happened. Lo and behold the following Monday he came to my house and said that he was an alcoholic and had attended his first AA meeting.
Later that week he called the family together for dinner and announced that he was moving overseas to live with a woman he'd met online. He said he'd be leaving within a week. When I asked what he would do with his stuff he shushed me and said it was all sorted with my sisters. We agreed to store a few minor things at my place for him and I assumed he'd made similar arrangements with my sisters. He was living with C at the time.
Fast forward a week and I drove him to the airport to see him off. Everyone was happy enough with the situation at the time.
Some time later he emailed the three of us with a spreadsheet containing a huge list of items with instructions for how to sell it, how much for, what to write, and what stuff he wanted stored where. My sisters were given the responsibility for most of it. The K emailed him back, cc'ing us, saying that it was too much to expect her and C to do all of that work when he could have done it before leaving the country. Then C did the same, saying that as all three of us work full time and have family commitments and lives, we couldn't do all this work for him. She said it was selfish of him to pack up and go and leave his mess for us to clean up.
He emailed us all back and said that was fine, we could all get fucked, throw his stuff out and he would never see us again. At this point I was fed up so I sent what I thought was a strongly worded email with some solutions - yes it was a lot of work to leave my sisters with and yes it could have been done before he left...but why not put the stuff into long-term storage on his friend's farm until he could arrange to sell it himself? We then got another email saying we would no longer hear from him and not to expect him to return home because obviously we wouldn't support him financially this way and didn't care about him, etc etc. So I washed my hands of it all.
My reasoning was that I have spent a lot of my life dealing with shitty father figures in their various forms, and so I am not wasting emotional energy on someone who has nothing to offer in return. I didn't want to encourage any further drama and I wanted to be able to step away and focus on the people in my life who don't seem to suck my soul.
And then fast forward to a week before now. He made contact with K after Christmas and apologised. She encouraged him to call C and me and apologise and now he and C are talking - but he hasn't contacted me. Last week K called to say he is returning home (presumably because he hasn't found work and has no money left) and will be staying with her while he gets himself sorted. She invited me for dinner. I declined and said I wouldn't come until he had made an effort to contact me. I don't want to make the first move here; I don't want to be accepting of his shitty behaviour in any way. To be honest I have been happier without his manipulative actions while he's been out of my life and now that he's back in town I am jittery and tense, waiting to hear from him. I actually wish he'd stayed overseas. So I won't be attending family events until he's made the effort to call me - I have told K that this has nothing to do with her (although yes, I am jealous and angry and sad that he seems to be having a happy, "normal" relationship with my sisters while I am on the outside), but that I still want to do family things with my sisters and our kids - I am just not prepared to play happy families with our dad when he hasn't had the guts to acknowledge the hurt he has caused me. I feel rejected and useless, and I feel like I have placed myself in this position by not backing down and calling him.
Ugh. So what do I do? Do I call? Do I keep waiting? What do I say? I want to go to a counsellor myself...but while it'll help me in the longer term I don't know what to do for myself right now.
My dad is a child, seriously. He has a history of running if things aren't going his way. He quits jobs about every 1-2 years, almost always because a workmate has it in for him (he says). He has been married twice and engaged several times. He never lives in the same house for long. He is bad with money and has no assets at all - in fact when he left the country he was about to be declared bankrupt and he owed his previous girlfriend thousands of dollars. In the past I have called the cops on him and got him counselling when he threatened to commit suicide and took off - my brother killed himself a few years ago and I have no tolerance for this from someone who knows the impact suicide has. I have supported him financially in minor ways and have been as supportive as I can while being as honest as I can with him when he changes jobs, or leaves his latest girlfriend, or spends all his money on a flatscreen TV.
So that's a bit of background. For my part, I didn't meet him until I was 18 - I was the result of a one-night stand. I have two half-sisters, K and C, and a deceased half-brother through him. K, C and I are reasonably close. I am 36 so I have known him for half my life and until recently he was involved in my family, looking after my kids, visiting regularly, etc. Prior to that I was raised first by my grandfather, who (I found out as an adult) stole my college money that my mother had been putting away for me, and then by my mother and adopted father, who was a physically abusive alcoholic. I had severed any ties to the previous father figures in my life.
Last November, around the anniversary of my brother's death, my sisters and I received a series of abusive text-messages from our dad. He said he was going to cut himself off from all of us and not come to C's wedding. My sisters responded; I didn't, to avoid escalating the drama. I expected he'd been drinking and would be regretting it the next day and pretending it hadn't happened. Lo and behold the following Monday he came to my house and said that he was an alcoholic and had attended his first AA meeting.
Later that week he called the family together for dinner and announced that he was moving overseas to live with a woman he'd met online. He said he'd be leaving within a week. When I asked what he would do with his stuff he shushed me and said it was all sorted with my sisters. We agreed to store a few minor things at my place for him and I assumed he'd made similar arrangements with my sisters. He was living with C at the time.
Fast forward a week and I drove him to the airport to see him off. Everyone was happy enough with the situation at the time.
Some time later he emailed the three of us with a spreadsheet containing a huge list of items with instructions for how to sell it, how much for, what to write, and what stuff he wanted stored where. My sisters were given the responsibility for most of it. The K emailed him back, cc'ing us, saying that it was too much to expect her and C to do all of that work when he could have done it before leaving the country. Then C did the same, saying that as all three of us work full time and have family commitments and lives, we couldn't do all this work for him. She said it was selfish of him to pack up and go and leave his mess for us to clean up.
He emailed us all back and said that was fine, we could all get fucked, throw his stuff out and he would never see us again. At this point I was fed up so I sent what I thought was a strongly worded email with some solutions - yes it was a lot of work to leave my sisters with and yes it could have been done before he left...but why not put the stuff into long-term storage on his friend's farm until he could arrange to sell it himself? We then got another email saying we would no longer hear from him and not to expect him to return home because obviously we wouldn't support him financially this way and didn't care about him, etc etc. So I washed my hands of it all.
My reasoning was that I have spent a lot of my life dealing with shitty father figures in their various forms, and so I am not wasting emotional energy on someone who has nothing to offer in return. I didn't want to encourage any further drama and I wanted to be able to step away and focus on the people in my life who don't seem to suck my soul.
And then fast forward to a week before now. He made contact with K after Christmas and apologised. She encouraged him to call C and me and apologise and now he and C are talking - but he hasn't contacted me. Last week K called to say he is returning home (presumably because he hasn't found work and has no money left) and will be staying with her while he gets himself sorted. She invited me for dinner. I declined and said I wouldn't come until he had made an effort to contact me. I don't want to make the first move here; I don't want to be accepting of his shitty behaviour in any way. To be honest I have been happier without his manipulative actions while he's been out of my life and now that he's back in town I am jittery and tense, waiting to hear from him. I actually wish he'd stayed overseas. So I won't be attending family events until he's made the effort to call me - I have told K that this has nothing to do with her (although yes, I am jealous and angry and sad that he seems to be having a happy, "normal" relationship with my sisters while I am on the outside), but that I still want to do family things with my sisters and our kids - I am just not prepared to play happy families with our dad when he hasn't had the guts to acknowledge the hurt he has caused me. I feel rejected and useless, and I feel like I have placed myself in this position by not backing down and calling him.
Ugh. So what do I do? Do I call? Do I keep waiting? What do I say? I want to go to a counsellor myself...but while it'll help me in the longer term I don't know what to do for myself right now.
Why do you want this man in your life right now? Your dad is seriously unstable and seems to get off by emotionally blackmailing you and your siblings. You deserve so much better. What are the benefits of having him in your life when we brings you nothing but stress and and dysfunction?
posted by OsoMeaty at 2:39 PM on March 6, 2012 [14 favorites]
posted by OsoMeaty at 2:39 PM on March 6, 2012 [14 favorites]
Ugh. So what do I do? Do I call? Do I keep waiting? What do I say? I want to go to a counsellor myself...but while it'll help me in the longer term I don't know what to do for myself right now.
You are still being abused by this awful man. He tells you he's cutting himself off from you all; shortly later he "calls everyone together" (WTF? where does a person who just announced an estrangement get off with "calling everyone together"?) to announce his departure; he orders you all to dispose of his things; he tells you all to "get fucked" when you raise reasonable objections and concerns.
And yet -- you seem to be holding on, just waiting to reconcile with this abusive and manipulative person to judge from your statement about waiting for him to call you.
He's pretty much a classic manipulator and user, from what you describe, and his moral development sounds really stunted.
Why are you concerning yourself with the terms and possibility of a reconciliation? Why are you not completely washing your hands of him and getting on with a SANE life away from him? I would propose you cut yourself off from him completely -- don't wait for him to do anything; don't even make reconciliation an option. Give it five or ten years. That kind of time will show if he's dealt with his demons. If he has gotten better, consider tentative steps toward reconciling. Otherwise, good riddance to him.
posted by jayder at 2:45 PM on March 6, 2012 [14 favorites]
You are still being abused by this awful man. He tells you he's cutting himself off from you all; shortly later he "calls everyone together" (WTF? where does a person who just announced an estrangement get off with "calling everyone together"?) to announce his departure; he orders you all to dispose of his things; he tells you all to "get fucked" when you raise reasonable objections and concerns.
And yet -- you seem to be holding on, just waiting to reconcile with this abusive and manipulative person to judge from your statement about waiting for him to call you.
He's pretty much a classic manipulator and user, from what you describe, and his moral development sounds really stunted.
Why are you concerning yourself with the terms and possibility of a reconciliation? Why are you not completely washing your hands of him and getting on with a SANE life away from him? I would propose you cut yourself off from him completely -- don't wait for him to do anything; don't even make reconciliation an option. Give it five or ten years. That kind of time will show if he's dealt with his demons. If he has gotten better, consider tentative steps toward reconciling. Otherwise, good riddance to him.
posted by jayder at 2:45 PM on March 6, 2012 [14 favorites]
I can't see that you'll get anything out of continuing to have a relationship with him.
I also think you should go see that counsellor if you want.
posted by mleigh at 2:47 PM on March 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
I also think you should go see that counsellor if you want.
posted by mleigh at 2:47 PM on March 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
I cannot tell you how to feel or what to do, but if it were me, I would tell him to fuck off. He may be your biological father, but he is an asshat.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 2:49 PM on March 6, 2012 [8 favorites]
posted by JohnnyGunn at 2:49 PM on March 6, 2012 [8 favorites]
It seems to me like the only reason you want him "back" is because you think he's having a "happy, normal" relationship with your sisters and you're jealous of them having that while all of your father figures are shitty. Plus you're used to them being shitty on some level.
Odds are, it's probably not as simple and easy as it sounds like to have him "back." He's probably going to start acting like an ass again to them soon, if he isn't already. You're probably better off staying away from him.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:49 PM on March 6, 2012 [11 favorites]
Odds are, it's probably not as simple and easy as it sounds like to have him "back." He's probably going to start acting like an ass again to them soon, if he isn't already. You're probably better off staying away from him.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:49 PM on March 6, 2012 [11 favorites]
yes, I am jealous and angry and sad that he seems to be having a happy, "normal" relationship with my sisters while I am on the outside
No offense, but based on what you've typed here, how long do you think that this person will be able to keep a "normal" relationship with your sisters? How long do you think it will be before he pulls the same old shit on them as he has before? I nth what other people have said, and if you were me, I'd be glad to have him out of my life.
posted by 254blocks at 2:51 PM on March 6, 2012 [11 favorites]
No offense, but based on what you've typed here, how long do you think that this person will be able to keep a "normal" relationship with your sisters? How long do you think it will be before he pulls the same old shit on them as he has before? I nth what other people have said, and if you were me, I'd be glad to have him out of my life.
posted by 254blocks at 2:51 PM on March 6, 2012 [11 favorites]
He may have contributed genetic material, but that only makes him a sire, not a father, and certainly not a Dad. This man has given you little if anything other than grief; you owe him nothing.
posted by FlyingMonkey at 2:52 PM on March 6, 2012 [5 favorites]
posted by FlyingMonkey at 2:52 PM on March 6, 2012 [5 favorites]
This post reminds me of that classic joke about a restaurant: the food was terrible, and the portions were so small!
This man is not fulfilling any purposes of fatherhood. He doesn't offer you any security, or make you feel stronger. It seems like you have a stronger moral compass than he does. His ministrations only come in dribs and drabs, and seem to bring more heartache than father/ child bonding. It might be time to count yourself lucky that he is imposing upon your siblings but not on you.
posted by pickypicky at 2:57 PM on March 6, 2012 [2 favorites]
This man is not fulfilling any purposes of fatherhood. He doesn't offer you any security, or make you feel stronger. It seems like you have a stronger moral compass than he does. His ministrations only come in dribs and drabs, and seem to bring more heartache than father/ child bonding. It might be time to count yourself lucky that he is imposing upon your siblings but not on you.
posted by pickypicky at 2:57 PM on March 6, 2012 [2 favorites]
Man. If you hold on to the belief that your dad will do something perfect, this will be your utter downfall. Speaking from experience, you have got to distance yourself from this expectation at all costs. As in, run. Pause and pray/meditate on having this belief removed.
Ok, now. I'm sorry that your dad picked your sister to live with for the time being, but if he's actually getting better, well fuck it then its worth it - this is a good thing and eventually he'll come around and talk to you. There is no "healthy dad" that picks your sisters over you. So don't consume yourself with envy.
And you better watch out when your brain starts telling you he's having a "normal" relationship with your sisters. Just look at the evidence you put forth; this is probably a lie. The only way to overcome the jitteriness and tension you have is to just completely own it. If you give it a ton of power, and don't face it, before you know it, you'll stop seeing your sisters and stay at home paralyzed.
posted by phaedon at 2:59 PM on March 6, 2012
Ok, now. I'm sorry that your dad picked your sister to live with for the time being, but if he's actually getting better, well fuck it then its worth it - this is a good thing and eventually he'll come around and talk to you. There is no "healthy dad" that picks your sisters over you. So don't consume yourself with envy.
And you better watch out when your brain starts telling you he's having a "normal" relationship with your sisters. Just look at the evidence you put forth; this is probably a lie. The only way to overcome the jitteriness and tension you have is to just completely own it. If you give it a ton of power, and don't face it, before you know it, you'll stop seeing your sisters and stay at home paralyzed.
posted by phaedon at 2:59 PM on March 6, 2012
Ugh. This is always hard. There is no way to get him to do what you want. You can't change him and you'll never going to get any kind of real assurance that he's not going to act like a douche.
First you have to accept that this IS who he is, and it's unlikely that any sort of begging, whitholding, requesting, debate, bribery, punishment or bargining is going to make him behave.
Now comes the really shitty part. You have to figure out what family harmony is worth to you, and how much you are going to miss out on if you can't be in the same room as him.
I have a similar problem with my father. His behavior-- is not worth getting into. He can't say he is sorry and he doesn't understand why I would want to talk "about the past"- even if the past was only a week ago. I don't want to give up the good stuff- my whole family, from brothers to cousins to aunts, all talk. We get together when we can. If I refused to see him I would be losing out on that good stuff. And I'd be giving up the good stuff I get from him.
I make firm boundries. I change the subject if he starts getting wierd. If he misbehaves, I drop off for a couple weeks or months and then pretend like nothing happened. He can't mess with me- because I get what he can give, and don't accept any promises from him for anything I don't think he can deliver. I don't get hurt and I don't feel guilty, and for the most part, the high road keeps my brothers and I from getting frustraited. We can rool our eyes at eachother and just move on.
It's not a situation that would work for many people- but it works for me.
posted by Blisterlips at 3:11 PM on March 6, 2012
First you have to accept that this IS who he is, and it's unlikely that any sort of begging, whitholding, requesting, debate, bribery, punishment or bargining is going to make him behave.
Now comes the really shitty part. You have to figure out what family harmony is worth to you, and how much you are going to miss out on if you can't be in the same room as him.
I have a similar problem with my father. His behavior-- is not worth getting into. He can't say he is sorry and he doesn't understand why I would want to talk "about the past"- even if the past was only a week ago. I don't want to give up the good stuff- my whole family, from brothers to cousins to aunts, all talk. We get together when we can. If I refused to see him I would be losing out on that good stuff. And I'd be giving up the good stuff I get from him.
I make firm boundries. I change the subject if he starts getting wierd. If he misbehaves, I drop off for a couple weeks or months and then pretend like nothing happened. He can't mess with me- because I get what he can give, and don't accept any promises from him for anything I don't think he can deliver. I don't get hurt and I don't feel guilty, and for the most part, the high road keeps my brothers and I from getting frustraited. We can rool our eyes at eachother and just move on.
It's not a situation that would work for many people- but it works for me.
posted by Blisterlips at 3:11 PM on March 6, 2012
You may be aware already, but in case you are not: Your dad is a sociopath.
Do not call.
posted by Feel the beat of the rhythm of the night at 3:20 PM on March 6, 2012 [6 favorites]
Do not call.
posted by Feel the beat of the rhythm of the night at 3:20 PM on March 6, 2012 [6 favorites]
Is he having a relationship with your siblings and not you? Or is he trying to use and exploit them yet again, and knows you won't stand for it?
posted by Sidhedevil at 3:22 PM on March 6, 2012 [18 favorites]
posted by Sidhedevil at 3:22 PM on March 6, 2012 [18 favorites]
It sounds like your father is doing you a favor by not favoring you with his attention. Be grateful for that tiny kindness from him and do whatever you need to move on.
posted by adamrice at 3:56 PM on March 6, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by adamrice at 3:56 PM on March 6, 2012 [2 favorites]
He's pathetic! This 'estrangement' lasted all of a few weeks. He can't function without you gals picking up his pieces.
But ou're not playing the game; you didn't respond to the abusive texts, you offered an adult solution to the 'problem' of dealing with his stuff [ha! What a metaphor! Go you - 'hey dad, store your shit a long way away from me and deal with it yourself!']; and you're now staying away until he 'apologises'. Good boundaries.
I know you feel outside from your sisters but you are not wrong to keep your distance. As shitty as your childhood has been without a stable, loving father figure, [so shitty, I feel for you] you've got more experience than your sisters in recognising the various forms in which disappointing father figures present. Your sisters are far, far more enmeshed in their dynamic with this man. That's why they are still dealing with his crap. They are almost humiliating themselves to help out a man who has repudiated them so strongly and so recently. You are a good model for them and sooner or later, they will separate from him too.
I totally get where you are with your tension at his return. I've been in a similar situation many times over the years, and in fact am in your situation now vis a vis my siblings and my father. The adult self knows the healthy aspect of boundaries but I still wobble about my siblings' ongoing connection with my father, assuming that I am in the wrong or being left out. I've reconciled this by recognising that they have been more enmeshed than me, have less self-belief in speaking up about his abuse and therefore in my mind they are to be sympathised with.
The longer you stay out of contact with your father, the 'easier' it is. Stay strong on what you need from your dad before any relations can resume: an apology for such a vitriolic repudiation and imposition whilst he was away, and a firm agreement to act with more respect in future. Keep a script going on this when you get wobbly - it will help remind you what the adult self knows about this situation, when the child self is activated by this situation, or when your sisters relay their awkwardness with dealing with the rift.
posted by honey-barbara at 4:01 PM on March 6, 2012 [7 favorites]
But ou're not playing the game; you didn't respond to the abusive texts, you offered an adult solution to the 'problem' of dealing with his stuff [ha! What a metaphor! Go you - 'hey dad, store your shit a long way away from me and deal with it yourself!']; and you're now staying away until he 'apologises'. Good boundaries.
I know you feel outside from your sisters but you are not wrong to keep your distance. As shitty as your childhood has been without a stable, loving father figure, [so shitty, I feel for you] you've got more experience than your sisters in recognising the various forms in which disappointing father figures present. Your sisters are far, far more enmeshed in their dynamic with this man. That's why they are still dealing with his crap. They are almost humiliating themselves to help out a man who has repudiated them so strongly and so recently. You are a good model for them and sooner or later, they will separate from him too.
I totally get where you are with your tension at his return. I've been in a similar situation many times over the years, and in fact am in your situation now vis a vis my siblings and my father. The adult self knows the healthy aspect of boundaries but I still wobble about my siblings' ongoing connection with my father, assuming that I am in the wrong or being left out. I've reconciled this by recognising that they have been more enmeshed than me, have less self-belief in speaking up about his abuse and therefore in my mind they are to be sympathised with.
The longer you stay out of contact with your father, the 'easier' it is. Stay strong on what you need from your dad before any relations can resume: an apology for such a vitriolic repudiation and imposition whilst he was away, and a firm agreement to act with more respect in future. Keep a script going on this when you get wobbly - it will help remind you what the adult self knows about this situation, when the child self is activated by this situation, or when your sisters relay their awkwardness with dealing with the rift.
posted by honey-barbara at 4:01 PM on March 6, 2012 [7 favorites]
I loved my dad a whole lot, but I cut him out of my life when I realized he added nothing but negativity to my life.
I can't imagine what you would gain from having a relationship with this man.
posted by something something at 4:06 PM on March 6, 2012 [2 favorites]
I can't imagine what you would gain from having a relationship with this man.
posted by something something at 4:06 PM on March 6, 2012 [2 favorites]
Frankly, you sound like you're the best off of the three siblings: K and C have got your dad back in their lives, but that includes his financial and emotional manipulation. Think about it: a commitment-phobic alcoholic financially-unstable often-unemployed guy who demands money and free storage and free labor is giving you the silent treatment?!? Count yourself lucky!
But on the other hand, yeah, the guy is your father; understandably, you really seem to want keep him in your family's lives. Perhaps, just to keep the peace (including with K and C), you reach out to him; just make yourself a rule to never again extend him any kind of financial support, don't store any of his stuff, and generally don't let him use you to clean up his messes.
It's a pain in the butt, but I had to cut off one of my siblings that way --- she was dragging me down with her irresponsibilities.
posted by easily confused at 4:13 PM on March 6, 2012
But on the other hand, yeah, the guy is your father; understandably, you really seem to want keep him in your family's lives. Perhaps, just to keep the peace (including with K and C), you reach out to him; just make yourself a rule to never again extend him any kind of financial support, don't store any of his stuff, and generally don't let him use you to clean up his messes.
It's a pain in the butt, but I had to cut off one of my siblings that way --- she was dragging me down with her irresponsibilities.
posted by easily confused at 4:13 PM on March 6, 2012
I am jealous and angry and sad that he seems to be having a happy, "normal" relationship with my sisters while I am on the outside
First, a point: they're not having a happy, "normal" relationship, because he's not capable of that, by all appearances. So you may feel jealous of being on the outside, but you're on the outside of what is likely a continuously unpredictable and abusive situation, so that's actually a good place to be.
And were I you, I'd do two things: get therapy to help me deal with the negative feelings, and at the same time thank my lucky stars every night that I don't have to deal with him.
posted by davejay at 4:32 PM on March 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
First, a point: they're not having a happy, "normal" relationship, because he's not capable of that, by all appearances. So you may feel jealous of being on the outside, but you're on the outside of what is likely a continuously unpredictable and abusive situation, so that's actually a good place to be.
And were I you, I'd do two things: get therapy to help me deal with the negative feelings, and at the same time thank my lucky stars every night that I don't have to deal with him.
posted by davejay at 4:32 PM on March 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
From what I can tell this guy has added nothing positive to your life. Wipe your hands of him, and your sisters probably very soon get tired of dealing with his bullshit, too.
posted by empath at 4:33 PM on March 6, 2012
posted by empath at 4:33 PM on March 6, 2012
So what do I do? Do I call? Do I keep waiting? What do I say?
I suggest you give up control, or maybe to give up the idea of control being something that can be applied to your father's actions by you or your sisters.
Also, stop giving him an emotional payoff when you set a boundary with him.
Also, I suggest you and your sisters agree to act as a team, rather than separately. At the very least, know whether they will act as a team with you and proceed accordingly. Maybe you know this for sure already, but it's not clear from your question, at least not to me.
Also, the language you are using to describe your interactions with him is VERY empowering to him... It looks to me like you've really internalized this control thing. Have a look:
Later that week he called the family together for dinner
If he ASKS you to convene for dinner dinner, assume he wants something from you, and decide whether you want to say no, or whether it's better to avoid dinner.
Some time later he emailed the three of us with a spreadsheet containing a huge list of items with instructions for how to sell it, how much for, what to write, and what stuff he wanted stored where. My sisters were given the responsibility for most of it.
If he ASKS you to sell this stuff, any you're not comfortable with this, say no.
At this point I was fed up so I sent what I thought was a strongly worded email with some solutions
You know the answer is going to be no by this point, so next time, don't phrase it as a question, and don't ask permission. Come up with a solution that gets the problem out of your hands, let him know what it is, carry it out, and hand it over to him in retrospect.
(This is very similar to what I referred to as The Easiest Thing in the World the other day. That is, he's adopting an extreme position and refusing to take other views into consideration. You can't convince him that he's wrong, you can only avoid playing or shift the burden of proof onto him.)
I declined and said I wouldn't come until he had made an effort to contact me. I don't want to make the first move here; I don't want to be accepting of his shitty behaviour in any way. To be honest I have been happier without his manipulative actions while he's been out of my life and now that he's back in town I am jittery and tense, waiting to hear from him. I actually wish he'd stayed overseas. So I won't be attending family events until he's made the effort to call me - I have told K that this has nothing to do with her (although yes, I am jealous and angry and sad that he seems to be having a happy, "normal" relationship with my sisters while I am on the outside), but that I still want to do family things with my sisters and our kids - I am just not prepared to play happy families with our dad when he hasn't had the guts to acknowledge the hurt he has caused me. I feel rejected and useless, and I feel like I have placed myself in this position by not backing down and calling him.
You are playing a game here that only exists in your head, and which you can't possibly win.
You've made your actions conditional upon something he does, apologizing to you, and upon him feeling something he is incapable of feeling, namely, genuine remorse.
You haven't placed yourself in this position by not backing down and calling him, you've placed yourself in this position by allowing him to have control over what you do.
You want something you can never have.
This game reminds me a lot of Schlemiel in Games People Play.
Basically, the Schlemiel goes around fucking up, and seeking psychological payoff from the mess he creates, but moreso from being forgiven. The other player in this game, you, gets their psychological payoff from doing the forgiving.
The way to deprive him of this payoff is to say, "You can send me abusive text messages, make unreasonable demands of me with your stuff, pop in and out of my life, but whatever you do, DON'T APOLOGIZE. I know full well what I'm getting into by choosing to have you in my life."
posted by alphanerd at 4:46 PM on March 6, 2012 [5 favorites]
I suggest you give up control, or maybe to give up the idea of control being something that can be applied to your father's actions by you or your sisters.
Also, stop giving him an emotional payoff when you set a boundary with him.
Also, I suggest you and your sisters agree to act as a team, rather than separately. At the very least, know whether they will act as a team with you and proceed accordingly. Maybe you know this for sure already, but it's not clear from your question, at least not to me.
Also, the language you are using to describe your interactions with him is VERY empowering to him... It looks to me like you've really internalized this control thing. Have a look:
Later that week he called the family together for dinner
If he ASKS you to convene for dinner dinner, assume he wants something from you, and decide whether you want to say no, or whether it's better to avoid dinner.
Some time later he emailed the three of us with a spreadsheet containing a huge list of items with instructions for how to sell it, how much for, what to write, and what stuff he wanted stored where. My sisters were given the responsibility for most of it.
If he ASKS you to sell this stuff, any you're not comfortable with this, say no.
At this point I was fed up so I sent what I thought was a strongly worded email with some solutions
You know the answer is going to be no by this point, so next time, don't phrase it as a question, and don't ask permission. Come up with a solution that gets the problem out of your hands, let him know what it is, carry it out, and hand it over to him in retrospect.
(This is very similar to what I referred to as The Easiest Thing in the World the other day. That is, he's adopting an extreme position and refusing to take other views into consideration. You can't convince him that he's wrong, you can only avoid playing or shift the burden of proof onto him.)
I declined and said I wouldn't come until he had made an effort to contact me. I don't want to make the first move here; I don't want to be accepting of his shitty behaviour in any way. To be honest I have been happier without his manipulative actions while he's been out of my life and now that he's back in town I am jittery and tense, waiting to hear from him. I actually wish he'd stayed overseas. So I won't be attending family events until he's made the effort to call me - I have told K that this has nothing to do with her (although yes, I am jealous and angry and sad that he seems to be having a happy, "normal" relationship with my sisters while I am on the outside), but that I still want to do family things with my sisters and our kids - I am just not prepared to play happy families with our dad when he hasn't had the guts to acknowledge the hurt he has caused me. I feel rejected and useless, and I feel like I have placed myself in this position by not backing down and calling him.
You are playing a game here that only exists in your head, and which you can't possibly win.
You've made your actions conditional upon something he does, apologizing to you, and upon him feeling something he is incapable of feeling, namely, genuine remorse.
You haven't placed yourself in this position by not backing down and calling him, you've placed yourself in this position by allowing him to have control over what you do.
You want something you can never have.
This game reminds me a lot of Schlemiel in Games People Play.
Basically, the Schlemiel goes around fucking up, and seeking psychological payoff from the mess he creates, but moreso from being forgiven. The other player in this game, you, gets their psychological payoff from doing the forgiving.
The way to deprive him of this payoff is to say, "You can send me abusive text messages, make unreasonable demands of me with your stuff, pop in and out of my life, but whatever you do, DON'T APOLOGIZE. I know full well what I'm getting into by choosing to have you in my life."
posted by alphanerd at 4:46 PM on March 6, 2012 [5 favorites]
Anon, you've cut him off already. Is there ANYTHING about this current situation that could change your convictions about this?
From what you've written I'd guess that he is not going to change and all he has to offer to you is more sadness and drama. I would also guess that one reason for you to initiate contact is to avoid feeling guilty for not doing so.
This is some really tough stuff. It's really difficult to make a decision about such a thing. What if he's changed his ways? What if he dies tomorrow? I've had to ask those and many more tough and serious questions. What I've learned, especially now that I'm raising my own children, is that my primary responsibility is to take care of myself. I can't take care of anyone else, be a good father or even a function as a normal human being unless I protect myself from such things.
So, I say no. Blow it off. Let it be. But also, I'm very sorry you have to go through this. Good luck and take care of yourself!
posted by snsranch at 4:54 PM on March 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
From what you've written I'd guess that he is not going to change and all he has to offer to you is more sadness and drama. I would also guess that one reason for you to initiate contact is to avoid feeling guilty for not doing so.
This is some really tough stuff. It's really difficult to make a decision about such a thing. What if he's changed his ways? What if he dies tomorrow? I've had to ask those and many more tough and serious questions. What I've learned, especially now that I'm raising my own children, is that my primary responsibility is to take care of myself. I can't take care of anyone else, be a good father or even a function as a normal human being unless I protect myself from such things.
So, I say no. Blow it off. Let it be. But also, I'm very sorry you have to go through this. Good luck and take care of yourself!
posted by snsranch at 4:54 PM on March 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
Can I rephrase your question?
Dear AskMeFi:
My estranged biological father continually manipulates my two loving sisters financially and emotionally. How can I help them maintain their strength in the midst of his drama and minimize the hurt he causes the family?
Please, focus on each other and help each other out.
The only one who can help your father is himself. He needs to get his life together, and the more everyone in your family enables him, the more childlike and demanding he will act.
posted by BlueHorse at 6:29 PM on March 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
Dear AskMeFi:
My estranged biological father continually manipulates my two loving sisters financially and emotionally. How can I help them maintain their strength in the midst of his drama and minimize the hurt he causes the family?
Please, focus on each other and help each other out.
The only one who can help your father is himself. He needs to get his life together, and the more everyone in your family enables him, the more childlike and demanding he will act.
posted by BlueHorse at 6:29 PM on March 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
You have a good handle on things, but it's really hard to get over wanting to have a Dad. Spend some time grieving the loss of your hopes and dreams of a Dad who is loving and generous, and whatever else you want in a Dad. If you have kids, try to be that Dad for them.
Disengage. Ignore bad behavior, walk away from it, even if it means you leave your sister's house, a restaurant, etc. If he tries to manipulate you, get off the phone, leave the room, etc. When he's in a good mood, and is nice to you, enjoy it.
You might have a chance at a different relationship, if he's able to learn that you won't be manipulated, and that you won't tolerate bad behavior. It doesn't matter if he calls you, or if you go over to visit. Treat him like a normal person, and when his behavior gets ugly, treat him like a normal person, and show that you will have no part of it. I did this with my Mom, and ended up having a relationship; not a great relationship, but a limited relationship that was real. It's better than the game-playing, by far. Good luck.
posted by theora55 at 6:45 PM on March 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
Disengage. Ignore bad behavior, walk away from it, even if it means you leave your sister's house, a restaurant, etc. If he tries to manipulate you, get off the phone, leave the room, etc. When he's in a good mood, and is nice to you, enjoy it.
You might have a chance at a different relationship, if he's able to learn that you won't be manipulated, and that you won't tolerate bad behavior. It doesn't matter if he calls you, or if you go over to visit. Treat him like a normal person, and when his behavior gets ugly, treat him like a normal person, and show that you will have no part of it. I did this with my Mom, and ended up having a relationship; not a great relationship, but a limited relationship that was real. It's better than the game-playing, by far. Good luck.
posted by theora55 at 6:45 PM on March 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
It sounds like you've grown up to be a level-headed, confident and self-aware person despite the struggles you had in your childhood. Your father isn't fostering any sort of relationship with your sisters. He's manipulating them and using them for whatever he can squeeze out of them. He's not contacting you because he knows that you won't stand for his shit (and good for you). Please don't feel jealous of your sisters, you should actually feel pity.
posted by MaryDellamorte at 6:51 PM on March 6, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by MaryDellamorte at 6:51 PM on March 6, 2012 [2 favorites]
you probably have an ideal image/fantasy of what a father should be. He is not this person. He is a very flawed, imperfect person. You have to look at if you want a relationship with this flawed human or the ideal image of a father. If you pick the ideal image of a father, you will not get it. If you pick the flawed human, you may still not get it. Look at what you DO have in life and see if any of this would add to it at all.
posted by Vaike at 9:08 PM on March 6, 2012
posted by Vaike at 9:08 PM on March 6, 2012
My brother has continuing contact with my dad. I currently don't. I have realized that I am massively happier this way and it's totally okay with me. If he writes to me, I write back, but I don't over-engage. You don't have to like your parents, and you don't have to be around them. Even beyond waiting for the other person to reach out, shitty human beings generally are not great to have around even when they want you around.
He's not having a happy normal relationship with them. All that stuff that happened before still happened. Think about it on a shorter-term scale: An alcoholic who is not at this very moment drunk and abusive is still an alcoholic.
However. Like the alcoholism, it is entirely possible that your dad isn't just an asshole, he's unwell. Mine is not an alcoholic--although several of his siblings were--but he has severe depression and PTSD. Your brother killed himself because he was sick. These things run in families, and if he was also your brother's father, well. Nobody threatens suicide just to make other people hurt. He might not have the thing that makes one actually self-destructive, but it sounds like he does have ongoing mental health issues. If he shows signs of wanting to fix that? Try to help him fix that. Not necessarily in an involved way, but I keep a suicide hotline number where I can find it, and the number of a psych services agency in the city where my dad lives. If he asks, I will be able to give him someone to call. He does not, however, need my presence in his life to get better. Neither does yours.
If he refuses help, you don't owe any more to him than that, and that, I think, is just something we owe to fellow human beings when we can offer it, not something you need to give him just because he's related to you. Take care of your own mental health first.
posted by gracedissolved at 12:50 AM on March 7, 2012
He's not having a happy normal relationship with them. All that stuff that happened before still happened. Think about it on a shorter-term scale: An alcoholic who is not at this very moment drunk and abusive is still an alcoholic.
However. Like the alcoholism, it is entirely possible that your dad isn't just an asshole, he's unwell. Mine is not an alcoholic--although several of his siblings were--but he has severe depression and PTSD. Your brother killed himself because he was sick. These things run in families, and if he was also your brother's father, well. Nobody threatens suicide just to make other people hurt. He might not have the thing that makes one actually self-destructive, but it sounds like he does have ongoing mental health issues. If he shows signs of wanting to fix that? Try to help him fix that. Not necessarily in an involved way, but I keep a suicide hotline number where I can find it, and the number of a psych services agency in the city where my dad lives. If he asks, I will be able to give him someone to call. He does not, however, need my presence in his life to get better. Neither does yours.
If he refuses help, you don't owe any more to him than that, and that, I think, is just something we owe to fellow human beings when we can offer it, not something you need to give him just because he's related to you. Take care of your own mental health first.
posted by gracedissolved at 12:50 AM on March 7, 2012
Nthing what everyone else says: DTMFA. As in now. The only sticking point is your sisters, but be clear with them as well. Tell them you will have nothing to do with your father. If he's on fire, by all means cross the street to urinate on him, but otherwise close that chapter of your life.
Just because someone is blood does not obligate a relationship.
posted by zardoz at 3:42 AM on March 7, 2012
Just because someone is blood does not obligate a relationship.
posted by zardoz at 3:42 AM on March 7, 2012
Anon, I am impressed by the backbone you've shown so far! Keep your sanity by refusing any contact with him. Relax when you realise how much more pleasant life is without his drama!
posted by Omnomnom at 5:17 AM on March 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Omnomnom at 5:17 AM on March 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
I thought a bit more on this. I'm seeing a therapist for a poor fathering experience so it might be relevant to you too.
My therapist reckons 'the child never gives up' - even the most dissolute characters who are their parents. I see that in dogs that stay loyal to bastard owners, or animals that love on, despite neglect or abuse. I recognise that in myself as I struggle with the same anxiety you are feeling right now about your dad being back in the same country as you, that he's around the block hanging out with your sisters. He could get in contact, but it would be terrible and to be feared. He won't make things better and would probably amplify angry feelings of being inadequately and wrongly fathered. Or he could not get in contact, an abandoned. He's neglecting and repudiating you all over again. All your buttons are being pushed by this series of recent episodes. Of course you dread the phone or the doorbell, and you mourn it when it doesn't happen too.
These are complicated times in your psychological life Anon. You're stepping out from the pattern, and tentacles of old patterns are trying to wrap around your newly emerging self. You've quietly, as right as it is for you to do so, asserted a position. To your father and your sisters it is probably seems like a really loud assertion. That's the habituated, enmeshed dynamic at play - none of his behaviour is acceptable. It's so hard to defend that position when all those ancient feelings are activated. But you are right to wait it out, or to move on somehow.
Again, I suggest to resorting to a script of what your adult, rational, if-this-was-a-friend-experiencing-this-treatment voice is telling you, and use that script to keep the terribly sad little child inside calm. Stick up for that little child's right to have [had] a proper fathering experience and realise that she's the one you need to care about not this repudiating idiot who masquerades as 'father'.
I am available on memail if you feel like you would like to vent or get some support.
posted by honey-barbara at 5:30 AM on March 7, 2012 [2 favorites]
My therapist reckons 'the child never gives up' - even the most dissolute characters who are their parents. I see that in dogs that stay loyal to bastard owners, or animals that love on, despite neglect or abuse. I recognise that in myself as I struggle with the same anxiety you are feeling right now about your dad being back in the same country as you, that he's around the block hanging out with your sisters. He could get in contact, but it would be terrible and to be feared. He won't make things better and would probably amplify angry feelings of being inadequately and wrongly fathered. Or he could not get in contact, an abandoned. He's neglecting and repudiating you all over again. All your buttons are being pushed by this series of recent episodes. Of course you dread the phone or the doorbell, and you mourn it when it doesn't happen too.
These are complicated times in your psychological life Anon. You're stepping out from the pattern, and tentacles of old patterns are trying to wrap around your newly emerging self. You've quietly, as right as it is for you to do so, asserted a position. To your father and your sisters it is probably seems like a really loud assertion. That's the habituated, enmeshed dynamic at play - none of his behaviour is acceptable. It's so hard to defend that position when all those ancient feelings are activated. But you are right to wait it out, or to move on somehow.
Again, I suggest to resorting to a script of what your adult, rational, if-this-was-a-friend-experiencing-this-treatment voice is telling you, and use that script to keep the terribly sad little child inside calm. Stick up for that little child's right to have [had] a proper fathering experience and realise that she's the one you need to care about not this repudiating idiot who masquerades as 'father'.
I am available on memail if you feel like you would like to vent or get some support.
posted by honey-barbara at 5:30 AM on March 7, 2012 [2 favorites]
* an abandoned, sad feeling of loss. Sorry.
posted by honey-barbara at 5:38 AM on March 7, 2012
posted by honey-barbara at 5:38 AM on March 7, 2012
My dad's a jerk, too. He also pulls manipulative crap like your dad is pulling. I'm sorry you're going through this. It sucks to have to make these kinds of decisions, I know.
There are two tactics that can make sense. Go with the one that feels right in your gut. If you start feeling too overwhelmed with whatever choice you have, try the other one. You'll find a balanced place if you just keep in touch with your own feelings.
Your first instinct - just avoid interaction until he says something - is probably the safest, most drama-free path, and one I heartily encourage. That's the current approach I have with my father, and it's a genuine stress-buster.
But maybe you want to make a point of your integration into the lives of your sisters and their place in your life. In that case, show up without making any big deal about it, treat him as a guest in your sister's home, but otherwise don't get involved with any of his mess. This works well for holidays and other events. Always, always give yourself permission to leave if things get uncomfortable or dramatic, and do so without a scene. Just politely excuse yourself. If you can give the host a heads-up ahead of time ("I may need to leave suddenly - it's no reflection on your event."), that's kind and could prevent strangeness.
Glad to see you're going to be working with a counselor. I hope you find a good fit very quickly and are able to start reprogramming this dynamic soon!
posted by batmonkey at 9:34 AM on March 7, 2012
There are two tactics that can make sense. Go with the one that feels right in your gut. If you start feeling too overwhelmed with whatever choice you have, try the other one. You'll find a balanced place if you just keep in touch with your own feelings.
Your first instinct - just avoid interaction until he says something - is probably the safest, most drama-free path, and one I heartily encourage. That's the current approach I have with my father, and it's a genuine stress-buster.
But maybe you want to make a point of your integration into the lives of your sisters and their place in your life. In that case, show up without making any big deal about it, treat him as a guest in your sister's home, but otherwise don't get involved with any of his mess. This works well for holidays and other events. Always, always give yourself permission to leave if things get uncomfortable or dramatic, and do so without a scene. Just politely excuse yourself. If you can give the host a heads-up ahead of time ("I may need to leave suddenly - it's no reflection on your event."), that's kind and could prevent strangeness.
Glad to see you're going to be working with a counselor. I hope you find a good fit very quickly and are able to start reprogramming this dynamic soon!
posted by batmonkey at 9:34 AM on March 7, 2012
Your story of your father reminds me of my relationship with my mother. It's been over 10 years since I had contact with her and I am much better off without the drama, manipulation and rage.
posted by Melsky at 10:50 AM on March 11, 2012
posted by Melsky at 10:50 AM on March 11, 2012
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So, time to put you and your family (kids, spouse, etc.) first before your dad. You owe him nothing, no communication, no recognition unless you want to give it to him and it doesn't sound like you want to right now.
Go with your gut.
And, definitely see a counselor. They will help you establish boundaries with your dad and your sisters to avoid these kinds of situations in the future.
posted by Leezie at 2:33 PM on March 6, 2012 [7 favorites]