If the Kid with Tourette's Could Stop Barking, He Would. Sheesh.
September 25, 2011 8:54 AM Subscribe
How can I ensure my kid isn't being penalized for his disabilities in school? He's a 13-year-old 7th grader who's been diagnosed with OCD and ADHD (hyperactive type) and is on meds (and receives therapy as needed) for both. He is a reasonably smart, very chatty little dude.
In a recent discussion with one of his teachers, I discovered that he's being penalized and verbally reprimanded for calling out in class.
I'm asking about this because this seems to flare up every single year in school, and I don't know if my perspective is wrong or if I'm handling this all wrong, or there's other stuff I'm not considering.
His teachers have supposedly read his IEP and know his disabilities, and I've had a meeting with them to explain about his OCD and ADHD behaviors (every year I have to do these meetings). I explained that some of what he does in class can be really annoying and trying (he's not physically squirrelly but he does call out occasionally when he has a question), but they are genuine disabilities and he shouldn't be penalized for them.
But it appears that he's still being reprimanded.
Am I wrong in thinking this is a problem that needs to be solved (and if so, how do I speak with the school so they hear me) or is it okay for him to be punished for calling out?
Lastly, I'm a middle school special education teacher who was nominated as "Teacher of the Year" in my state (I'm only saying that because I know my stuff about this sort of thing, teacher-wise)...but I'm also a wicked overprotective mommy bear of a mother, so I may not be seeing this clearly.
I'm asking about this because this seems to flare up every single year in school, and I don't know if my perspective is wrong or if I'm handling this all wrong, or there's other stuff I'm not considering.
His teachers have supposedly read his IEP and know his disabilities, and I've had a meeting with them to explain about his OCD and ADHD behaviors (every year I have to do these meetings). I explained that some of what he does in class can be really annoying and trying (he's not physically squirrelly but he does call out occasionally when he has a question), but they are genuine disabilities and he shouldn't be penalized for them.
But it appears that he's still being reprimanded.
Am I wrong in thinking this is a problem that needs to be solved (and if so, how do I speak with the school so they hear me) or is it okay for him to be punished for calling out?
Lastly, I'm a middle school special education teacher who was nominated as "Teacher of the Year" in my state (I'm only saying that because I know my stuff about this sort of thing, teacher-wise)...but I'm also a wicked overprotective mommy bear of a mother, so I may not be seeing this clearly.
And by "reprimanding," do you mean something other than telling him not to call out in class?
posted by decathecting at 9:02 AM on September 25, 2011
posted by decathecting at 9:02 AM on September 25, 2011
How does his IEP state that these behaviors should be accommodated? That is what seems salient to me, not his disabilities. (IANA teacher, but my son went through school with an IEP.)
posted by Wordwoman at 9:10 AM on September 25, 2011 [6 favorites]
posted by Wordwoman at 9:10 AM on September 25, 2011 [6 favorites]
I don't think you're seeing this clearly. If a child with a disability is mainstreamed, it can't be at the cost of the other students having a good learning environment, or of his teacher being able to maintain order in the classroom. I understand that kids with disabilities can get different kinds of accommodations in order to allow them to mainstream (having an aide, permission to use a computer during class, etc), but I've never heard of a kid having permission to call out.
posted by telegraph at 9:11 AM on September 25, 2011 [16 favorites]
posted by telegraph at 9:11 AM on September 25, 2011 [16 favorites]
Agreed that we need more detail about the penalizing and reprimands. I mean, at some point, he needs to find ways to cope with these behaviors so that he can function as best as possible in his post-school life, right?
So no way would it be appropriate for the teacher to kick him out of class, humiliate him, yell at him, lower his grades, etc., but if s/he is simply saying, "Young Kinetic, please remember that it's not okay to shout out in class" I can't see that's as a problem (although neither can I see how that would be an especially effective strategy help him learn to modify his behavior). Otherwise the other kids are going to think it's okay to start shouting out an inappropriate times.
Does his IEP have a concrete behavioral support plan? As a mainstream teacher, I always read the IEPs, but they almost never gave me any idea of how to best support each kid's needs. And non-SPED teachers, at least in my experience, get almost no training as to how to help kids with special needs. The kid's counselors aren't always terribly helpful, either. As both his mom AND an award-winning SPED teacher, I think if you met with the teacher again from a "Hey, let's figure out how we can work together to help Young Kinetic do as well as possible in your class and here are some explicit plans for specific issues", I think his teacher would be thrilled. I know I would have done somersaults of joy.
posted by smirkette at 9:12 AM on September 25, 2011 [7 favorites]
So no way would it be appropriate for the teacher to kick him out of class, humiliate him, yell at him, lower his grades, etc., but if s/he is simply saying, "Young Kinetic, please remember that it's not okay to shout out in class" I can't see that's as a problem (although neither can I see how that would be an especially effective strategy help him learn to modify his behavior). Otherwise the other kids are going to think it's okay to start shouting out an inappropriate times.
Does his IEP have a concrete behavioral support plan? As a mainstream teacher, I always read the IEPs, but they almost never gave me any idea of how to best support each kid's needs. And non-SPED teachers, at least in my experience, get almost no training as to how to help kids with special needs. The kid's counselors aren't always terribly helpful, either. As both his mom AND an award-winning SPED teacher, I think if you met with the teacher again from a "Hey, let's figure out how we can work together to help Young Kinetic do as well as possible in your class and here are some explicit plans for specific issues", I think his teacher would be thrilled. I know I would have done somersaults of joy.
posted by smirkette at 9:12 AM on September 25, 2011 [7 favorites]
Assuming "reprimanded" means "told not to do that," I think you're being an overprotective mommy bear here.
I'm assuming that ADHD, unlike Tourette's, doesn't render these exclamations (what do you mean "calling out"?) involuntary.
Why shouldn't he be held, at least aspirationally, to the same standard as everyone else? Sure it's hard for him to get there and might not even be attainable, but it's important to strive for that. I'm not saying seventh graders shouldn't be sheltered or treated differently at all, but at some point he's going to be in a position where he's judged on his behavior and no one cares about his OCD and ADHD. If he's treated right now in school as it's all good and is never told no, isn't that going to make the transition to the grown-up world that much harder?
posted by J. Wilson at 9:12 AM on September 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'm assuming that ADHD, unlike Tourette's, doesn't render these exclamations (what do you mean "calling out"?) involuntary.
Why shouldn't he be held, at least aspirationally, to the same standard as everyone else? Sure it's hard for him to get there and might not even be attainable, but it's important to strive for that. I'm not saying seventh graders shouldn't be sheltered or treated differently at all, but at some point he's going to be in a position where he's judged on his behavior and no one cares about his OCD and ADHD. If he's treated right now in school as it's all good and is never told no, isn't that going to make the transition to the grown-up world that much harder?
posted by J. Wilson at 9:12 AM on September 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Yeah, what are the penalties? If the teacher is making him stand in the corner or taking points off a classroom participation score, that's a problem. But if she's saying "KineticKid, please don't call out in class," that's not punishment, it's accommodation and education. Would you want the teacher to overlook an opportunity to give him the extra help he needs to learn more appropriate ways of engaging in the classroom?
posted by KathrynT at 9:12 AM on September 25, 2011
posted by KathrynT at 9:12 AM on September 25, 2011
Response by poster: decathecting: "When you say "penalized," what do you mean? Is the teacher lowering his grades, or just reprimanding him?"
Every time he calls out certain teachers will tell him to stop interrupting, to stop calling out, to act his age and behave, they will say he's called out three times and now has a lunch detention and/or will say that his class participation grade will be lowered if he doesn't knock it off.
posted by kinetic at 9:13 AM on September 25, 2011
Every time he calls out certain teachers will tell him to stop interrupting, to stop calling out, to act his age and behave, they will say he's called out three times and now has a lunch detention and/or will say that his class participation grade will be lowered if he doesn't knock it off.
posted by kinetic at 9:13 AM on September 25, 2011
It's a tough one being a classroom teacher with students who have IEPs and students who don't. You try as hard as you can to meet the accommodations of the IEP students and respect their privacy, but you still have non-IEP students and you have to meet their needs too - like, for example, providing a learning environment where calling out isn't acceptable behavior. As a teacher, you try to handle the student with the IEP who has issues with calling out, but you also have a class of students you're obligated to who are annoyed that the IEP student "gets away with it" and disrupts their learning and they see it as not being fair because they get punished for doing the same thing. Then they start to resent the kid that gets away with it. And as the instructor, it's not like i can say to the class, "Hey guys, be understanding, kinetic Jr. has a disability" because I would violate kinetic Jr.'s privacy. It's really hard to strike that balance, especially the higher up you go in grades. Students aren't stupid and know when others are being treated differently.
I suggest you contact that instructor and work out a behavior modification plan for this specific behavior.
posted by NoraCharles at 9:17 AM on September 25, 2011 [16 favorites]
I suggest you contact that instructor and work out a behavior modification plan for this specific behavior.
posted by NoraCharles at 9:17 AM on September 25, 2011 [16 favorites]
Best answer: Every time he calls out certain teachers will tell him to stop interrupting, to stop calling out, to act his age and behave, they will say he's called out three times and now has a lunch detention and/or will say that his class participation grade will be lowered if he doesn't knock it off.
IMHO the first two are fine, the third is not OK but is perhaps excusable if it were a one-time frustrated outburst, and the last two are completely unacceptable and a violation of his IEP.
I'd say that your strategy here is to meet with the principal and say "Can we get a plan into place to help prevent further violations of Young Kinetic's IEP? It seems like his teachers don't have a good process in place; what can I do to help create a process that protects the classroom environment but doesn't violate my son's rights?"
posted by KathrynT at 9:17 AM on September 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
IMHO the first two are fine, the third is not OK but is perhaps excusable if it were a one-time frustrated outburst, and the last two are completely unacceptable and a violation of his IEP.
I'd say that your strategy here is to meet with the principal and say "Can we get a plan into place to help prevent further violations of Young Kinetic's IEP? It seems like his teachers don't have a good process in place; what can I do to help create a process that protects the classroom environment but doesn't violate my son's rights?"
posted by KathrynT at 9:17 AM on September 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Kinetic, based on your teaching experience, do you have some concrete ideas about how you would like the teachers to respond to young kinetic? For example, telling him to not interrupt: ok. Lowering his grade: not ok?
I only note this because if you are going to go in for a conversation, your own experience of what has worked with your kid might be helpful.
posted by anitanita at 9:19 AM on September 25, 2011
I only note this because if you are going to go in for a conversation, your own experience of what has worked with your kid might be helpful.
posted by anitanita at 9:19 AM on September 25, 2011
Okay, I can see how that's an issue. So what are some things that you and the teacher can work out to remind him not to do those things? Because it *can* be really disruptive, and isn't the goal to help your child develop his coping skills? Ye olde post-it note trick? (start the class with x number of post-it notes or post-it flags on desk top, remove one every time kid speaks out of turn after said flags have run out, then some sort of more agreed-upon behavioral modification intervention)
posted by smirkette at 9:19 AM on September 25, 2011
posted by smirkette at 9:19 AM on September 25, 2011
I agree with the above commenter- as an award winning teacher, you should totally go in and tell the teacher what strategies you would like to implement to accomodate your kid while keeping the required struture/rules in place for the other kids. I am a (totally non-award winning!:)) HS teacher and even after 9 years, I still find those balances tricky. Instead of just criticizing the teacher for not handling appropriately, you need to tell him or her what you would like to see happen and see whether or not your plan can be accomodated. After all your son doesn't have Tourettes and is in a mainstream class...I think it's wonderful he wants to participate- I have tonnes of lively boys like that. They even say 'how can I get in trouble for participating?!' When they call out. I just remind them that while I love their enthusiasm, it is not ok to 'overparticipate' since everyone deserves to be heard and sometimes we need to give the other quieter students a chance too. Usually they laugh and call out a few minutes later again- sometimes boys will be lively boys...(Even though I know your son has been diagnosed and is being treated, my students are noisy nyc 9th graders, and my example is totally sexist- I've definitely had loud girls too!!)
posted by bquarters at 9:41 AM on September 25, 2011
posted by bquarters at 9:41 AM on September 25, 2011
(Actually from a more somber perspective I had a student with ADHD a couple of years ago and he was such a fun, interesting, and curious person and sitting in our school quietly was really difficult for him. I always wonder if he might have been happier in a more progressive sort of environment- a more hands-on, experimental sort of school. Unfortunately due to all sorts of circumstances, that wasn't an option at all. Anyway, just another thought...if trying or considering an alternate school environment is a possibility).
posted by bquarters at 9:49 AM on September 25, 2011
posted by bquarters at 9:49 AM on September 25, 2011
I can't comment on how to handle the teacher interaction - there are many more qualified people that have done so; however, I can comment on your child's behavior. It feels... familiar.
As a kid I qualified as the gifted spectrum, and also probably on the ADHD and ADD spectrums - but those weren't mainstream diagnoses at the time so I never had IEPs, or the modern resources to help/protect me. On top of that, my school and class were so small that there weren't the resources for 2nd track: with little exception every kid traked in the same room (until high school). But, with that said, I think I know the sensation your kid feels when he knows an answer, has a quip and a question and I may have some assistance to help him.
Everything was a game for me - it had to be, I was half bored and half working on 9 other things at the same time while I was in class. My disruptions were never too much, but to succeed, I had to rewire the social interactions in the classroom. On occasions, I cheated and blurted something out, but I worked hard to minimize both my disruptive behavior and to keep me focused enough to process all the material in the class (and in my head).
What I did was table it. I chose to write down my response - every time. I wrote it down first before rasing my hand or calling out - and that needed to be OK with the teacher so that I could stop myself from wanting to call out. I needed the structure and rules applied to the interaction to force me to cognitively understand the social interaction I was having with the teacher. As a bonus, my responses became clearer and my focus was more directed. My handwriting sucks from years of furiously scribbling down my notes, my questions and my answers, and staying on par with the lecture, but hey - now there are computers to minimize the impact of my handwriting. (I appologize to the few professors that required blue-book essays in college).
I have a friend who's son used to not care about school - moreso about baseball. His grades got in a bit of trouble because he didn't care about school - until he started to view the school as something that was part of baseball: there were rules, there were things that he needed to do, and that getting an assignment back with good marks on it was a lot more like a base hit.
I'm not a proponent of totally gamifying his education, but just of applying the same sort of structure, rules, and discipline required for gaming.
posted by Nanukthedog at 9:50 AM on September 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
As a kid I qualified as the gifted spectrum, and also probably on the ADHD and ADD spectrums - but those weren't mainstream diagnoses at the time so I never had IEPs, or the modern resources to help/protect me. On top of that, my school and class were so small that there weren't the resources for 2nd track: with little exception every kid traked in the same room (until high school). But, with that said, I think I know the sensation your kid feels when he knows an answer, has a quip and a question and I may have some assistance to help him.
Everything was a game for me - it had to be, I was half bored and half working on 9 other things at the same time while I was in class. My disruptions were never too much, but to succeed, I had to rewire the social interactions in the classroom. On occasions, I cheated and blurted something out, but I worked hard to minimize both my disruptive behavior and to keep me focused enough to process all the material in the class (and in my head).
What I did was table it. I chose to write down my response - every time. I wrote it down first before rasing my hand or calling out - and that needed to be OK with the teacher so that I could stop myself from wanting to call out. I needed the structure and rules applied to the interaction to force me to cognitively understand the social interaction I was having with the teacher. As a bonus, my responses became clearer and my focus was more directed. My handwriting sucks from years of furiously scribbling down my notes, my questions and my answers, and staying on par with the lecture, but hey - now there are computers to minimize the impact of my handwriting. (I appologize to the few professors that required blue-book essays in college).
I have a friend who's son used to not care about school - moreso about baseball. His grades got in a bit of trouble because he didn't care about school - until he started to view the school as something that was part of baseball: there were rules, there were things that he needed to do, and that getting an assignment back with good marks on it was a lot more like a base hit.
I'm not a proponent of totally gamifying his education, but just of applying the same sort of structure, rules, and discipline required for gaming.
posted by Nanukthedog at 9:50 AM on September 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
After years of trying to get my son's school to deal well with him, I finally brought in the big guns and hired educational consultants to come to the IEP and other meetings. It changed everything. I can't recommend it enough. They came up with solutions for all sorts of problems, and the school listened to them much better than they ever listened to me even when we said the same things grrrr.
I know you know what you're talking about, but having a third party might help keep things civil and in perspective for everyone concerned.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:56 AM on September 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
I know you know what you're talking about, but having a third party might help keep things civil and in perspective for everyone concerned.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:56 AM on September 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
Best answer: As a former teacher, I'd say that the responses your child is getting from the teacher are entirely appropriate. Unless your child's IEP or 504 plan explicitly state otherwise ("Teachers will not remark on callouts made in class"). As a teacher, I probably wouldn't have signed off on an IEP that had a clause prohibiting me from addressing a disruptive classroom behavior in any way.
Things I've done with students with similar callout behavior (and disability) are:
* Giving the student a limit on the number of callouts (say, 2 per class period). That's probably not enough to cause serious disruption and gives the student a goal for the class period. It makes him/her save up their callouts for when its really important. After 2, in the example, the teacher could start disciplining in the same manner as before. This forces kids to start thinking about when they're just blurting out for the sake of blurting and when they have something important or useful to add.
* Provide some kind of signal for when it's ok to callout- I was always very explicit with my students about when I wanted hands raised and when callouts were a-ok. Providing time when callouts are explicitly allowed can help kids recognize when callouts are appropriate and self-manage their behavior.
* Provide paper for the student to write questions or answers down when callouts are inappropriate. I would collect that paper later and even write responses to the student when appropriate.
This all said, callouts can be an exceptionally disruptive classroom behavior when done constantly. Students without diagnosed disabilities sometimes were removed from class if they couldn't get their behavior settled. But, I found that nearly every situation could be resolved by providing a limit on the number of callouts. This sets boundaries for your child and clear expectations for behavior. Be prepared for a teacher who wants the limit set at zero, but I think most teachers would be ok with a couple per period. Especially because, once a limit is set, the students often self manage and begin to callout appropriately.
posted by jeffch at 10:17 AM on September 25, 2011 [9 favorites]
Things I've done with students with similar callout behavior (and disability) are:
* Giving the student a limit on the number of callouts (say, 2 per class period). That's probably not enough to cause serious disruption and gives the student a goal for the class period. It makes him/her save up their callouts for when its really important. After 2, in the example, the teacher could start disciplining in the same manner as before. This forces kids to start thinking about when they're just blurting out for the sake of blurting and when they have something important or useful to add.
* Provide some kind of signal for when it's ok to callout- I was always very explicit with my students about when I wanted hands raised and when callouts were a-ok. Providing time when callouts are explicitly allowed can help kids recognize when callouts are appropriate and self-manage their behavior.
* Provide paper for the student to write questions or answers down when callouts are inappropriate. I would collect that paper later and even write responses to the student when appropriate.
This all said, callouts can be an exceptionally disruptive classroom behavior when done constantly. Students without diagnosed disabilities sometimes were removed from class if they couldn't get their behavior settled. But, I found that nearly every situation could be resolved by providing a limit on the number of callouts. This sets boundaries for your child and clear expectations for behavior. Be prepared for a teacher who wants the limit set at zero, but I think most teachers would be ok with a couple per period. Especially because, once a limit is set, the students often self manage and begin to callout appropriately.
posted by jeffch at 10:17 AM on September 25, 2011 [9 favorites]
Telling him 'don't do that' is fine. Penalizing a him (lunch detention, lower grades) for actions that are a result of his disability is illegal.
This is where you find a lawyer that specializes in disability to write the school a letter. That's all it should take. The school doesn't want to do the right thing (accommodating your kid) because: a) they don't know they have to (*very* unlikely), b) they don't want to because it's a hassle, or c) they don't want to because the accommodations can be expensive, like providing a classroom aid to keep your kid focused so that outbursts don't disrupt the class.
Going an IEP or 504 (I think that's the number) route, I strongly recommend having a lawyer advocate for you and your kid, not to make it fighty, but just to get it done. In my experience, school administrators have a strong incentive to passively delay and then deny until your kid is out of their school.
posted by zippy at 10:44 AM on September 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
This is where you find a lawyer that specializes in disability to write the school a letter. That's all it should take. The school doesn't want to do the right thing (accommodating your kid) because: a) they don't know they have to (*very* unlikely), b) they don't want to because it's a hassle, or c) they don't want to because the accommodations can be expensive, like providing a classroom aid to keep your kid focused so that outbursts don't disrupt the class.
Going an IEP or 504 (I think that's the number) route, I strongly recommend having a lawyer advocate for you and your kid, not to make it fighty, but just to get it done. In my experience, school administrators have a strong incentive to passively delay and then deny until your kid is out of their school.
posted by zippy at 10:44 AM on September 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
"Every time he calls out certain teachers will tell him to stop interrupting, to stop calling out, to act his age and behave, they will say he's called out three times and now has a lunch detention and/or will say that his class participation grade will be lowered if he doesn't knock it off."
Yes, following on jeffch: Is the calling out part of his diagnosis and, if so, is it listed in his IEP? Because if not, the teachers don't have to "accommodate" it and may treat him like any other student who is speaking out of turn.
On the school board, I see suspensions and expulsions involving special ed students, and the issue is always, "Is this behavior part of the student's diagnosis? Is it listed in the IEP?" If it's not, the student is handled like a regular-division student who has had the same issue. If it IS in the IEP, however, and the behavior is repeatedly disruptive to the classroom environment, what usually happens is a "change of placement" and an amendment of the IEP -- which may mean no longer mainstreaming the child, or getting a classroom aide, or something. You would know better than I would. (As you're aware, there's a bunch of laws relating to these things, which vary by state.)
I also (like jeffch) have some trouble imagining our teachers would be willing to deal with that level of disruption. So your options seem to be get it in the IEP and convince teachers to deal with it (seems unlikely), seek a change of placement, or work with the teachers and your son and administrators to come up with ways to manage the behavior.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:51 AM on September 25, 2011
Yes, following on jeffch: Is the calling out part of his diagnosis and, if so, is it listed in his IEP? Because if not, the teachers don't have to "accommodate" it and may treat him like any other student who is speaking out of turn.
On the school board, I see suspensions and expulsions involving special ed students, and the issue is always, "Is this behavior part of the student's diagnosis? Is it listed in the IEP?" If it's not, the student is handled like a regular-division student who has had the same issue. If it IS in the IEP, however, and the behavior is repeatedly disruptive to the classroom environment, what usually happens is a "change of placement" and an amendment of the IEP -- which may mean no longer mainstreaming the child, or getting a classroom aide, or something. You would know better than I would. (As you're aware, there's a bunch of laws relating to these things, which vary by state.)
I also (like jeffch) have some trouble imagining our teachers would be willing to deal with that level of disruption. So your options seem to be get it in the IEP and convince teachers to deal with it (seems unlikely), seek a change of placement, or work with the teachers and your son and administrators to come up with ways to manage the behavior.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:51 AM on September 25, 2011
Response by poster: Is the calling out part of his diagnosis and, if so, is it listed in his IEP?
Yes, it's noted in his IEP that he can have obsessive thoughts and because of the lack of impulse control as part of ADHD, he will not be penalized for calling out in class. He is supposed to be on a positive behavior plan; it's ignored by some teachers.
According to his sped teacher/liaison, he calls out more than the "typical" student, but in her opinion he's not even borderline disruptive. She thinks there are certain old school-type teachers who lack an understanding of his IEP and accommodations who are the problem.
posted by kinetic at 11:02 AM on September 25, 2011
Yes, it's noted in his IEP that he can have obsessive thoughts and because of the lack of impulse control as part of ADHD, he will not be penalized for calling out in class. He is supposed to be on a positive behavior plan; it's ignored by some teachers.
According to his sped teacher/liaison, he calls out more than the "typical" student, but in her opinion he's not even borderline disruptive. She thinks there are certain old school-type teachers who lack an understanding of his IEP and accommodations who are the problem.
posted by kinetic at 11:02 AM on September 25, 2011
Many others have covered this, so I'll try not to be super repetitive and give a few salient points from my perspective as another high school teacher (though not a SPED expert by any means).
The culture of the school probably matters here. What is the general discipline ethos of the school? Are all students required to raise their hands at all times if they wish to speak? Are other students reprimanded and/or do they have their grades penalised if they yell out answers or is it only directed at your son? Are administrators supportive of teachers using punishment/grade consequences for this behaviour? The answers to those questions will help you navigate the approach you take.
I've had a few students with OCD, and it is rarely in their IEP. How much of this behaviour is due to the OCD? Do his teachers understand OCD and how it impacts repetitive behaviours like calling out in class? I once had a student who didn't turn in homework or finish anything in class. Ever. He was even failiing my class so I called home. Turns out, he was spending 7-8 hours a night doing his homework (after sports practice) because he had to make it perfect, down to having perfect handwriting. He was sleeping 2-4 hours a night as a result. But despite that seriously limiting condition, didn't have an IEP and wasn't eligible to modifications (and I was the only teacher willing to make them without an IEP, at least at first). He failed Algebra and Biology - all because of the homework and classwork he didn't finish. Just reducing the assignments I gave to him allowed him to get an A in my class. The culture of the school was to treat students like criminals or worse. They were guilty until proven innocence. His mother was told, point-blank, that her son's needs didn't matter and that teachers had a right to fail him, even with a doctor's note detailing the extent of his disability. He finally had to be hospitalsed due to the stress of the situation (and was not allowed to make up work for that time either).
However, when he was hospitalised, I was able to talk to one of his teachers about the modifications I made for him, and she agreed to make the same changes - he passed that class too. That teacher listened to me, even though his mother said the same thing - for a lot of teachers, their colleagues have more ethos than a parent does.
But had his mother not told me the extent of the problem and how it was affecting him, I wouldn't have known any better and would have continued to punish him for something out of his control. I still feel shitty about it, honestly. It's one of the reasons that I've switched almost entirely by discipline through positive rewards...and it works SOOOOOOOO much better that it shocks me how few people use it.
A good question to ask his teachers is: Do you believe he is calling out in class to be disruptive or rude? If so, have him (or you can) explain why it happens. Then, hopefully the teacher will be able to move past punishment and discuss the strategies she can use to interact with him. And if he is doing well in one class but not in another, maybe the teachers can talk to each other about what works.
The one thing that will NEVER work is belitting or accusing teachers of ignoring his IEP or being purposefully spiteful in their reactions to your son (although that may well be true). Start by asking questions and gathering information. Be firm, but polite and be willing to listen - it could be that he's in a rowdy class or the teacher has something going on in their own life that's affecting the situation (like: I have Lupus, and by the end of the day, my patience is less than it should be - I don't like to use it as an excuse, but when I tell students, they're often able to be more understanding of me, just as I'm understanding of them when they tell me about their own struggles). If the class is just a bad mix of personalities or the teacher is unwilling to change, suggest that your son's schedule be changed.
tl;dr - the teachers may not know the extent and will probably feel shitty once they finally connect the dots. Help them out and use their trust in their colleagues to figure out what works. The school's culture matters too, so keep that in mind, and teachers are people (with issues) too so be polite but firm when you advocate for your son. Good luck!
posted by guster4lovers at 11:45 AM on September 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
The culture of the school probably matters here. What is the general discipline ethos of the school? Are all students required to raise their hands at all times if they wish to speak? Are other students reprimanded and/or do they have their grades penalised if they yell out answers or is it only directed at your son? Are administrators supportive of teachers using punishment/grade consequences for this behaviour? The answers to those questions will help you navigate the approach you take.
I've had a few students with OCD, and it is rarely in their IEP. How much of this behaviour is due to the OCD? Do his teachers understand OCD and how it impacts repetitive behaviours like calling out in class? I once had a student who didn't turn in homework or finish anything in class. Ever. He was even failiing my class so I called home. Turns out, he was spending 7-8 hours a night doing his homework (after sports practice) because he had to make it perfect, down to having perfect handwriting. He was sleeping 2-4 hours a night as a result. But despite that seriously limiting condition, didn't have an IEP and wasn't eligible to modifications (and I was the only teacher willing to make them without an IEP, at least at first). He failed Algebra and Biology - all because of the homework and classwork he didn't finish. Just reducing the assignments I gave to him allowed him to get an A in my class. The culture of the school was to treat students like criminals or worse. They were guilty until proven innocence. His mother was told, point-blank, that her son's needs didn't matter and that teachers had a right to fail him, even with a doctor's note detailing the extent of his disability. He finally had to be hospitalsed due to the stress of the situation (and was not allowed to make up work for that time either).
However, when he was hospitalised, I was able to talk to one of his teachers about the modifications I made for him, and she agreed to make the same changes - he passed that class too. That teacher listened to me, even though his mother said the same thing - for a lot of teachers, their colleagues have more ethos than a parent does.
But had his mother not told me the extent of the problem and how it was affecting him, I wouldn't have known any better and would have continued to punish him for something out of his control. I still feel shitty about it, honestly. It's one of the reasons that I've switched almost entirely by discipline through positive rewards...and it works SOOOOOOOO much better that it shocks me how few people use it.
A good question to ask his teachers is: Do you believe he is calling out in class to be disruptive or rude? If so, have him (or you can) explain why it happens. Then, hopefully the teacher will be able to move past punishment and discuss the strategies she can use to interact with him. And if he is doing well in one class but not in another, maybe the teachers can talk to each other about what works.
The one thing that will NEVER work is belitting or accusing teachers of ignoring his IEP or being purposefully spiteful in their reactions to your son (although that may well be true). Start by asking questions and gathering information. Be firm, but polite and be willing to listen - it could be that he's in a rowdy class or the teacher has something going on in their own life that's affecting the situation (like: I have Lupus, and by the end of the day, my patience is less than it should be - I don't like to use it as an excuse, but when I tell students, they're often able to be more understanding of me, just as I'm understanding of them when they tell me about their own struggles). If the class is just a bad mix of personalities or the teacher is unwilling to change, suggest that your son's schedule be changed.
tl;dr - the teachers may not know the extent and will probably feel shitty once they finally connect the dots. Help them out and use their trust in their colleagues to figure out what works. The school's culture matters too, so keep that in mind, and teachers are people (with issues) too so be polite but firm when you advocate for your son. Good luck!
posted by guster4lovers at 11:45 AM on September 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
In that case you are not at all out of line and should address it with the principal, sped office for the district, even superintendent if necessary. (And yes, there are definitely teachers who don't "get" IEPs and it's an ongoing headache.) In fact, I got an e-mail from a parent this week whose child's IEP was NOT being appropriately implemented. As a school board member I have no direct ability to do anything except to say "WTF, PEOPLE, FIX PLS" to the appropriate administrator. Depending on the school's set-up, sometimes it's easier to change teachers than to try to change a teacher who refuses to cope.
One way, from experience, to get the school to hear you is to bring a collegial lawyer with you to whatever meeting. With a yellow pad. Not someone adversarial, but someone pleasant, who knows the law, and who has an attitude of "let's solve this together" and a demeanor that projects that same message. Having an outside, unemotional advocate for you is very helpful, especially when that person is collegial and problem-solving rather than adversarial. But you have to be careful -- you don't want to project a threat.
With his sped liaison on your side, though, that may not even be necessary. Definitely take it up through channels and get it fixed. I'd be pissed to hear about this and I'd be complaining to our superintendent about teachers ignoring IEPs and what training did they intend to implement to ensure this situation did not recur in the future? (Though of course it will. Sigh.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:49 AM on September 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
One way, from experience, to get the school to hear you is to bring a collegial lawyer with you to whatever meeting. With a yellow pad. Not someone adversarial, but someone pleasant, who knows the law, and who has an attitude of "let's solve this together" and a demeanor that projects that same message. Having an outside, unemotional advocate for you is very helpful, especially when that person is collegial and problem-solving rather than adversarial. But you have to be careful -- you don't want to project a threat.
With his sped liaison on your side, though, that may not even be necessary. Definitely take it up through channels and get it fixed. I'd be pissed to hear about this and I'd be complaining to our superintendent about teachers ignoring IEPs and what training did they intend to implement to ensure this situation did not recur in the future? (Though of course it will. Sigh.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:49 AM on September 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Oops - I fail at preview. Just saw your update - can the SPED liason spend some time in class with the teacher to help them change the cycle?
And can YOU make a positive rewards scheme at home? Something like him carrying a little notebook and writing down the times he calls out in class every period. The teacher could sign and write notes in the notebook each day in every period. Then reward him when he reaches the goals you guys set together. That way, it's on him to think about it and on you to reward it - all the teacher needs to do is initial something every day. I don't know many teachers who would refuse to do that.
posted by guster4lovers at 11:50 AM on September 25, 2011
And can YOU make a positive rewards scheme at home? Something like him carrying a little notebook and writing down the times he calls out in class every period. The teacher could sign and write notes in the notebook each day in every period. Then reward him when he reaches the goals you guys set together. That way, it's on him to think about it and on you to reward it - all the teacher needs to do is initial something every day. I don't know many teachers who would refuse to do that.
posted by guster4lovers at 11:50 AM on September 25, 2011
Best answer: I think you will get absolutely nowhere if you go into this and try to out-teacher his teachers and tell them how it needs to go down.
Leave the bear at home too. You need to go into this as a parent. By being there and asking questions and making arrangements, you are already being the best possible advocate for your child's education.
Getting detention occasionally for particularly egregious or frustrating incidents isn't going to hurt him or set him back. He needs to learn that sometimes adults are impatient or short-tempered and not everyone will extend him the same benefit of doubt. Gradually this will make him more conscious of his actions and how others may be interpreting them. I think if his grade suffered as a result of this it would be worth having a conference with his teacher, but again, leave the big guns at home. The important details are that his disability is already established, and that he has people at school and at home who are working together to make sure he gets the most out of his school days.
posted by hermitosis at 1:04 PM on September 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Leave the bear at home too. You need to go into this as a parent. By being there and asking questions and making arrangements, you are already being the best possible advocate for your child's education.
Getting detention occasionally for particularly egregious or frustrating incidents isn't going to hurt him or set him back. He needs to learn that sometimes adults are impatient or short-tempered and not everyone will extend him the same benefit of doubt. Gradually this will make him more conscious of his actions and how others may be interpreting them. I think if his grade suffered as a result of this it would be worth having a conference with his teacher, but again, leave the big guns at home. The important details are that his disability is already established, and that he has people at school and at home who are working together to make sure he gets the most out of his school days.
posted by hermitosis at 1:04 PM on September 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
...he will not be penalized for calling out in class.
Unless what's meant by a penalty is clearly spelled out, this is very ambiguous. I could easily see teachers interpreting this simply as "don't impact his/her grade based on this behavior". To many punishing is not a "penalty." If it's not ok to even tell the student that his/her callout is inappropriate, this needs to be clearly outlined in the IEP.
If you want teachers to behave a certain way that's outside the normal student/teacher interaction (which is just fine for Special Ed- it's why we have IEPs and 504 plans), you need to specifically state what's expected in clear, specific terms. Otherwise teachers will automatically revert to their normal behavior.
Without reading the IEP it's impossible to know if teachers are doing what they're supposed to be doing. But, in my experience, the clearer the language the better the results.
posted by jeffch at 1:28 PM on September 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
Unless what's meant by a penalty is clearly spelled out, this is very ambiguous. I could easily see teachers interpreting this simply as "don't impact his/her grade based on this behavior". To many punishing is not a "penalty." If it's not ok to even tell the student that his/her callout is inappropriate, this needs to be clearly outlined in the IEP.
If you want teachers to behave a certain way that's outside the normal student/teacher interaction (which is just fine for Special Ed- it's why we have IEPs and 504 plans), you need to specifically state what's expected in clear, specific terms. Otherwise teachers will automatically revert to their normal behavior.
Without reading the IEP it's impossible to know if teachers are doing what they're supposed to be doing. But, in my experience, the clearer the language the better the results.
posted by jeffch at 1:28 PM on September 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
Best answer: > I think you will get absolutely nowhere if you go into this and try to out-teacher his teachers and tell them how it needs to go down
Recently my son's teacher -- who knows he has autism -- told him that she expects her students to look her in the eye. Sometimes teachers don't know everything you'd like them to know.
The teacher might need some support and education regarding teaching children with OCD and ADHD. Kinetic's son might be the first kid she's had in her class with this particular characteristic, and in fact maybe she does need to be told how it needs to go down. Nicely.
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:47 PM on September 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Recently my son's teacher -- who knows he has autism -- told him that she expects her students to look her in the eye. Sometimes teachers don't know everything you'd like them to know.
The teacher might need some support and education regarding teaching children with OCD and ADHD. Kinetic's son might be the first kid she's had in her class with this particular characteristic, and in fact maybe she does need to be told how it needs to go down. Nicely.
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:47 PM on September 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
My perspective as someone who not that long ago was in your son's position.
It really sucks to be reprimanded for doing something you have a hard time controlling, BUT it's an important step in learning how to act in the world. I agree that if the teacher is picking on him in particular, there is definitely an issue, but if she's simply trying to continue with class, it mint be all about how she is going about her reactions.
Negative reinforcement usually isn't as effective as positive reinforcement, especially for people with ADHD (who tend to feel personally attacked when their actions are criticized), so it might be a good start to ask the teacher if she can implement some sort of reward system whereby you son is praised or gets extra credit/privileges if he manages to prevent himself from calling out in class.
It's easy to get caught up in defending the teacher as just trying to do her job, but I want the OP to know this: Sticking up and advocating for your son is never the wrong thing to do, even if sometimes you might misunderstand the situation. It is largely because of you that he I'll grow up to be successfully educated, instead of a disillusioned drop-out. The school system is incredibly hard on those of us who are different, so keep up the good work.
posted by dantekgeek at 10:16 PM on September 25, 2011
It really sucks to be reprimanded for doing something you have a hard time controlling, BUT it's an important step in learning how to act in the world. I agree that if the teacher is picking on him in particular, there is definitely an issue, but if she's simply trying to continue with class, it mint be all about how she is going about her reactions.
Negative reinforcement usually isn't as effective as positive reinforcement, especially for people with ADHD (who tend to feel personally attacked when their actions are criticized), so it might be a good start to ask the teacher if she can implement some sort of reward system whereby you son is praised or gets extra credit/privileges if he manages to prevent himself from calling out in class.
It's easy to get caught up in defending the teacher as just trying to do her job, but I want the OP to know this: Sticking up and advocating for your son is never the wrong thing to do, even if sometimes you might misunderstand the situation. It is largely because of you that he I'll grow up to be successfully educated, instead of a disillusioned drop-out. The school system is incredibly hard on those of us who are different, so keep up the good work.
posted by dantekgeek at 10:16 PM on September 25, 2011
Response by poster: Thank you everyone, I will speak with his team (and ensure the three teachers who threaten to lower his grade attend) again and explain the nature of the OCD/ADHD combo so they see that he's actually controlling himself a lot more than they realize, and those remaining 2 or 3 callouts per class can be addressed with the positive reinforcement plan that they're supposed to be following.
And I may bring someone with me to the meeting who looks like an educational advocate (they don't need to know it's my sister, right?).
guster4lovers and jeffch, the systems you mentioned are what are supposed to be in place and are being ignored.
posted by kinetic at 3:18 AM on September 26, 2011
And I may bring someone with me to the meeting who looks like an educational advocate (they don't need to know it's my sister, right?).
guster4lovers and jeffch, the systems you mentioned are what are supposed to be in place and are being ignored.
posted by kinetic at 3:18 AM on September 26, 2011
they don't need to know it's my sister, right?
Wow, I have to say I was shocked to read that. Is your relationship with your son's school really so impersonal and adversarial that you could bring your sister and (mis)represent her as a professional advocate? That's depressing.
I guess if you feel that you have to do that, go for it. But if there is a possibility of taking an honest and collaborative approach to managing your son's needs I think that would be preferable to using a subterfuge to threaten the school into doing what you want. There are limits to what you'll get with that sort of tactic, and the real possibility of it causing problems if it's discovered.
posted by alms at 11:32 AM on September 26, 2011
Wow, I have to say I was shocked to read that. Is your relationship with your son's school really so impersonal and adversarial that you could bring your sister and (mis)represent her as a professional advocate? That's depressing.
I guess if you feel that you have to do that, go for it. But if there is a possibility of taking an honest and collaborative approach to managing your son's needs I think that would be preferable to using a subterfuge to threaten the school into doing what you want. There are limits to what you'll get with that sort of tactic, and the real possibility of it causing problems if it's discovered.
posted by alms at 11:32 AM on September 26, 2011
And I may bring someone with me to the meeting who looks like an educational advocate (they don't need to know it's my sister, right?).
Bad idea, IMO.
posted by Windigo at 12:25 PM on September 26, 2011
Don't lie about who she is, but bringing your sister is a great idea. There's nothing unusual about bringing support to a meeting. You don't have to volunteer that she's your sister.
The book Shut Up About Your Perfect Kid has a great illustration about what IEP meetings usually look like, and what they should (scroll to the next page).
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:58 PM on September 26, 2011
The book Shut Up About Your Perfect Kid has a great illustration about what IEP meetings usually look like, and what they should (scroll to the next page).
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:58 PM on September 26, 2011
Response by poster:
Wow, I have to say I was shocked to read that. Is your relationship with your son's school really so impersonal and adversarial that you could bring your sister and (mis)represent her as a professional advocate? That's depressing.
This battle/headache has been ongoing for 7 straight years, so I'm starting to feel adversarial, yes. And I'm hardly the only parent of a kid on an IEP with the exact same issues in our district.
But I won't pretend my sister is my advocate.
posted by kinetic at 2:47 AM on September 27, 2011
Wow, I have to say I was shocked to read that. Is your relationship with your son's school really so impersonal and adversarial that you could bring your sister and (mis)represent her as a professional advocate? That's depressing.
This battle/headache has been ongoing for 7 straight years, so I'm starting to feel adversarial, yes. And I'm hardly the only parent of a kid on an IEP with the exact same issues in our district.
But I won't pretend my sister is my advocate.
posted by kinetic at 2:47 AM on September 27, 2011
In case you're still reading this, I wanted to add one more thing. I know that many of my students have particular modifications; but in the moment with everything I have to remember when I'm teaching, I don't always remember. I have a class where 9 students have IEP's, all with different specifications. Sometimes I can't remember who needs simplified directions and reduced length and which can use dictionaries and which go to the learning centre, etc.
Assume positive intentions and express that - even if you don't feel it.
And thank you for not misrepresenting your sister as anyone other than a caring adult.
posted by guster4lovers at 4:16 PM on October 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
Assume positive intentions and express that - even if you don't feel it.
And thank you for not misrepresenting your sister as anyone other than a caring adult.
posted by guster4lovers at 4:16 PM on October 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
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