"Halo is like, 8 million Pongs"; help me find something to illustrate how far computers have come.
August 26, 2011 4:26 AM Subscribe
"Halo is like, 8 million Pongs"; help me find something to illustrate how far computers have come.
A friend of mine needs a statistic to illustrate how far computers have come since she was a kid (this is for a 1 woman show), and it must to involve the Sega MegaDrive version of Sonic the Hedgehog.
Essentially, she needs a quote that is equivalent to "[X] is like [Y number] of Sonics".
I thought of comparing the storage capacity of a MegaDrive ROM cartridge to a modern DVD, but my Google-fu is failing me. How big was the original Sonic the Hedgehog? How much storage capacity did a ROM cartridge have?
Bonus points: do you have a better illustration?
A friend of mine needs a statistic to illustrate how far computers have come since she was a kid (this is for a 1 woman show), and it must to involve the Sega MegaDrive version of Sonic the Hedgehog.
Essentially, she needs a quote that is equivalent to "[X] is like [Y number] of Sonics".
I thought of comparing the storage capacity of a MegaDrive ROM cartridge to a modern DVD, but my Google-fu is failing me. How big was the original Sonic the Hedgehog? How much storage capacity did a ROM cartridge have?
Bonus points: do you have a better illustration?
A commodore 64 had 64kb of RAM while the iPhone 4 will have (iirc) 512mb.
posted by elizardbits at 4:41 AM on August 26, 2011
posted by elizardbits at 4:41 AM on August 26, 2011
Go with polygons, for absurd comparisons. I can't find numbers now, but the assault rifle on Halo Reach has more polygons than a whole marine in Halo 3. I dread to think what the comparison would be with Megadrive Sonic.
posted by pompomtom at 4:42 AM on August 26, 2011
posted by pompomtom at 4:42 AM on August 26, 2011
Best answer: Sega MegaDrive specs:
http://www.consoledatabase.com/consoleinfo/segamegadrive/
XBox 360 specs:
http://www.consoledatabase.com/consoleinfo/microsoftxbox360/
Xbox 360 games are between 2GB and 6GB. MegaDrive games (cartridge) were between 8MB and 16MB.
posted by michaelh at 4:42 AM on August 26, 2011
http://www.consoledatabase.com/consoleinfo/segamegadrive/
XBox 360 specs:
http://www.consoledatabase.com/consoleinfo/microsoftxbox360/
Xbox 360 games are between 2GB and 6GB. MegaDrive games (cartridge) were between 8MB and 16MB.
posted by michaelh at 4:42 AM on August 26, 2011
OK, I take that back. it's just a wee sprighty thing..
posted by pompomtom at 4:44 AM on August 26, 2011
posted by pompomtom at 4:44 AM on August 26, 2011
The Apollo missions went to the moon with computers weighing 70 lbs and holding 2k of memory.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:45 AM on August 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:45 AM on August 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
Your smart phone is orders of magnitude more powerful than the computer that controls the late space shuttles, much less the Apollo capsules.
posted by InsanePenguin at 4:47 AM on August 26, 2011
posted by InsanePenguin at 4:47 AM on August 26, 2011
Guys, these are neat factiods and all, but the question states that the comparison must relate to the Sega MegaDrive version of Sonic the Hedgehog.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 4:51 AM on August 26, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by Admiral Haddock at 4:51 AM on August 26, 2011 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I apologize -- Sonic was on the 4 megabit cartridge not the 8 megabyte one. 8 bits = 1 byte.
posted by michaelh at 4:55 AM on August 26, 2011
posted by michaelh at 4:55 AM on August 26, 2011
Bonus points: do you have a better illustration?
We all think our explanations are better, I guess.
posted by elizardbits at 4:55 AM on August 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
We all think our explanations are better, I guess.
posted by elizardbits at 4:55 AM on August 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Comparisons that relate to Sonic are preferred, but it may be that there better comparisons.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:59 AM on August 26, 2011
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:59 AM on August 26, 2011
Best answer: Sonic the Hedgehog was only 512kbyte. That's roughly 30 seconds of MP3 audio. A video of the opening "Sega chant" screen is likely to be larger than the game itself.
(this is less impressive than Super Mario Bros., which, at 40kbyte, is smaller than a single screenshot of itself)
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:02 AM on August 26, 2011 [7 favorites]
(this is less impressive than Super Mario Bros., which, at 40kbyte, is smaller than a single screenshot of itself)
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:02 AM on August 26, 2011 [7 favorites]
Guys, these are neat factiods and all, but the question states that the comparison must relate to the Sega MegaDrive version of Sonic the Hedgehog.
I think the OP is also asking for "better comparisons", whatever they might be.
That said, any comparisons we provide can be used as intermediates for conversion into "Sonic" units, if that makes sense. For example, one PS3 might equal eight Sega Megadrives*, which means one Sega Megadrive is equivalent to five Cray-1s, etc.
*: This conversion rate is made up.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:08 AM on August 26, 2011
I think the OP is also asking for "better comparisons", whatever they might be.
That said, any comparisons we provide can be used as intermediates for conversion into "Sonic" units, if that makes sense. For example, one PS3 might equal eight Sega Megadrives*, which means one Sega Megadrive is equivalent to five Cray-1s, etc.
*: This conversion rate is made up.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:08 AM on August 26, 2011
Response by poster: Blazecock Pileon has it.
And you guys all rock.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:12 AM on August 26, 2011
And you guys all rock.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:12 AM on August 26, 2011
The Xbox 360 and PS3 are pretty old by now, so I'd rather compare the MegaDrive to a modern PC. The MegaDrive had 64 KB RAM and could execute about 1 MIPS (Million instructions per second). A modern PC will typically have 8 GB of RAM (131,072 times more) and can execute up to 159,000 MIPS. So in these respects, we're talking about a ~150,000x improvement.
posted by martinrebas at 5:28 AM on August 26, 2011
posted by martinrebas at 5:28 AM on August 26, 2011
For an actual image visualization, this is one of my favorites: here
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:26 AM on August 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:26 AM on August 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
Best answer: The main problem with tech comparisons like this is that the numbers involved are often so arbitrarily huge that they lose all meaning to listeners. Whether something is 150,000x something else, or 150,000,000x, it all sounds the same.
I'd be generous and add the 7.6Mhz and 4Mhz of the processor and coprocessor (although strictly speaking, the two together wouldn't have been as fast) to get 11.6Mhz of processing power.
The machine had 64 Kbytes of RAM.
The trick is going to be finding something that's more powerful, but not so powerful that you blow the comparisons out of the water. Other gaming consoles are good to compare as they make good direct comparisons.
Xbox 360 is running at 3.2Ghz, i.e. 3200Mhz. 3200/11.6 = 275. So Halo 3 is 275 Sonics of processing power. The ram numbers are bigger. The Xbox 360 has 524,288Kb of RAM. So in terms of memory, Halo 3 is 8,192 Sonics.
To make it extra impressive, note that one Sonic is equal to 32 space shuttles (in terms of memory).
posted by zug at 8:34 AM on August 26, 2011
I'd be generous and add the 7.6Mhz and 4Mhz of the processor and coprocessor (although strictly speaking, the two together wouldn't have been as fast) to get 11.6Mhz of processing power.
The machine had 64 Kbytes of RAM.
The trick is going to be finding something that's more powerful, but not so powerful that you blow the comparisons out of the water. Other gaming consoles are good to compare as they make good direct comparisons.
Xbox 360 is running at 3.2Ghz, i.e. 3200Mhz. 3200/11.6 = 275. So Halo 3 is 275 Sonics of processing power. The ram numbers are bigger. The Xbox 360 has 524,288Kb of RAM. So in terms of memory, Halo 3 is 8,192 Sonics.
To make it extra impressive, note that one Sonic is equal to 32 space shuttles (in terms of memory).
posted by zug at 8:34 AM on August 26, 2011
Best answer: err, that should be apollo space shuttles. The newer (i.e. just retired) space shuttles have the AP-101S GPC, which had 1MB of RAM.
posted by zug at 8:40 AM on August 26, 2011
posted by zug at 8:40 AM on August 26, 2011
slight derail
Not sure but I think this comparison might be better if you judged it against some fixed standard.
E.g. showing how much cheaper/accessible things are...
Maybe for $1000 in 1980 you could buy..... today you can get....
Or in terms of volume, weight, time to accomplish some task?
I really like this visualization comparing different ways music artists can receive money. In particular the how many units need to be shifted to achieve the minimum wage.
/derail
posted by 92_elements at 8:58 AM on August 26, 2011
Not sure but I think this comparison might be better if you judged it against some fixed standard.
E.g. showing how much cheaper/accessible things are...
Maybe for $1000 in 1980 you could buy..... today you can get....
Or in terms of volume, weight, time to accomplish some task?
I really like this visualization comparing different ways music artists can receive money. In particular the how many units need to be shifted to achieve the minimum wage.
/derail
posted by 92_elements at 8:58 AM on August 26, 2011
Compare Sonic the Hedgehog gold rings (from the game) to the modern-day equivalent. It is for a one-woman show, so likely the point should be made using something that illustrates the propensity for violence that is common now but relatively rare back then.
"It would take 3,700,000 gold rings to equal one Unreal Tournament headshot.*" Something like that. Obviously she's the writer, so she'll have to get to a point where such a comparison makes sense contextually, but the added hook of the non-violent versus the violent should be a vein she can mine.
Incidentally, from a violence perspective, there isn't an equivalency in scale -- remember, in Sonic, you jumped on top of robot critters to burst them open and release the happy bunnies who were enslaved inside -- so if an Unreal Tournament headshot is powerful and violent and disturbing, you can't map that back to a count of gold rings (no "pecked to death by baby ducks" effect there.) The violence aspect has to remain a subset.
Also noteworthy: the amount of human (not computing) effort required has scaled dramatically as well. If 3,700,000 gold rings' worth of processing power is required to make one Unreal Tournament headshot, the corrolary is that the sheer amount of human effort required to find and collect those 3,700,000 gold rings is a significant contrast to the effort required for a single headshot.
and don't even get me started on the opportunity cost of a double kill
*I know Unreal Tournament is old-school, but so am I.
posted by davejay at 12:47 PM on August 26, 2011
"It would take 3,700,000 gold rings to equal one Unreal Tournament headshot.*" Something like that. Obviously she's the writer, so she'll have to get to a point where such a comparison makes sense contextually, but the added hook of the non-violent versus the violent should be a vein she can mine.
Incidentally, from a violence perspective, there isn't an equivalency in scale -- remember, in Sonic, you jumped on top of robot critters to burst them open and release the happy bunnies who were enslaved inside -- so if an Unreal Tournament headshot is powerful and violent and disturbing, you can't map that back to a count of gold rings (no "pecked to death by baby ducks" effect there.) The violence aspect has to remain a subset.
Also noteworthy: the amount of human (not computing) effort required has scaled dramatically as well. If 3,700,000 gold rings' worth of processing power is required to make one Unreal Tournament headshot, the corrolary is that the sheer amount of human effort required to find and collect those 3,700,000 gold rings is a significant contrast to the effort required for a single headshot.
and don't even get me started on the opportunity cost of a double kill
*I know Unreal Tournament is old-school, but so am I.
posted by davejay at 12:47 PM on August 26, 2011
The violence aspect has to remain a subsettext.
FTFM
posted by davejay at 12:48 PM on August 26, 2011
FTFM
posted by davejay at 12:48 PM on August 26, 2011
the amount of human (not computing) effort required has scaled dramatically downward as well.
Again, FTFM. I actually think this is a fun train of thought, inasmuch as our computers are working so much harder, and we are working so much less, so that each individual achievement -- despite being a grandiose expression of our machine's capabilities -- registers as that much less impressive on the human scale, because we don't have to break a sweat. Thus driving people to demand more and more from the games, to make up for our own lack of involvement.
posted by davejay at 12:50 PM on August 26, 2011
Again, FTFM. I actually think this is a fun train of thought, inasmuch as our computers are working so much harder, and we are working so much less, so that each individual achievement -- despite being a grandiose expression of our machine's capabilities -- registers as that much less impressive on the human scale, because we don't have to break a sweat. Thus driving people to demand more and more from the games, to make up for our own lack of involvement.
posted by davejay at 12:50 PM on August 26, 2011
File size, frame rate, or MIPS or something would be the low hanging fruit here, easy to grab and impressive sounding.
A metric with real meaning would be the "entropy" of the two games, defined by the number of possible states each could be in. This ends up literally a count of the branches in the source code, so it would be hard to get, but here's a rough estimate:
X = The average program has [easily googl-able #] of branches per instruction ( i believe it's a number like 1/10)
Y = number instructions per MB in the game (ie 16bit processer 1024KByte / 2 bytes per instruction, 32 bit processor has 1024K/4, etc..)
X*Y*file size ~ # of branches
posted by oblio_one at 4:46 PM on August 26, 2011
A metric with real meaning would be the "entropy" of the two games, defined by the number of possible states each could be in. This ends up literally a count of the branches in the source code, so it would be hard to get, but here's a rough estimate:
X = The average program has [easily googl-able #] of branches per instruction ( i believe it's a number like 1/10)
Y = number instructions per MB in the game (ie 16bit processer 1024KByte / 2 bytes per instruction, 32 bit processor has 1024K/4, etc..)
X*Y*file size ~ # of branches
posted by oblio_one at 4:46 PM on August 26, 2011
Well if you want to use Sonic himself as a direct comparison, there was a recent revelation that one brick in one of the Lego (as in Lego Star Wars, etc) uses more polygons than an avatar in World of Warcraft. So I would suggest something like that. Sonic is a sprite, essentially a set of single polygons that are swapped out, versus something like:
original Lara Croft (PS1): 230 polygons
Lara Croft in PS2 era: 4400
current model: 32,000
posted by tremspeed at 5:02 PM on August 26, 2011
original Lara Croft (PS1): 230 polygons
Lara Croft in PS2 era: 4400
current model: 32,000
posted by tremspeed at 5:02 PM on August 26, 2011
Response by poster: Thanks for all the help. You guys are awesome.
Here's what she decided to go with:
"The average console game today is about 12,000 Sonic The Hedgehogs. A dual-layer bluray disc could hold 102,400 Sonics".
Incidentally, the show is about prominent lady nerds throughout history. Sonic is relevant because of my friend's childhood obsession and resulting desire to be a programmer.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 11:09 PM on August 26, 2011
Here's what she decided to go with:
"The average console game today is about 12,000 Sonic The Hedgehogs. A dual-layer bluray disc could hold 102,400 Sonics".
Incidentally, the show is about prominent lady nerds throughout history. Sonic is relevant because of my friend's childhood obsession and resulting desire to be a programmer.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 11:09 PM on August 26, 2011
Response by poster: I though you guys might like a followup. She premiered the show at the Sydney Fringe Festival October 2011, received rave reviews, and took out a Fringe Award.
She'll be touring in Australia throughout 2012.
Thanks again for the help.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 10:03 PM on January 17, 2012
She'll be touring in Australia throughout 2012.
Thanks again for the help.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 10:03 PM on January 17, 2012
This thread is closed to new comments.
The Cray weighed 5.5 tons including the freon refrigeration system. The machine and its power supplies consumed about 115,000W of power; cooling and storage likely more than doubled this figure.
Now multiply those figures by 40.
Now stack that next to a Sony PlayStation 3 that weighs a few pounds, uses 250W, and only requires air cooling.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 4:39 AM on August 26, 2011 [3 favorites]