One way ticket to jerkdom.
July 8, 2011 10:06 AM Subscribe
How do I stop being such a steamroller?
I was raised to be a confident, achieving, independent woman. I feel I have a lot of great qualities to offer. I'm a scientist, homeowner, marathon runner, triathlete, volunteer track coach, and try my best to be a good neighbor, friend, daughter and person.
At work, I work in a strong leadership role, and my outgoing personality tends to do well. However, in my personal life, I can't help but feel like I steamroll people without realizing it sometimes. When I meet new people, I try to focus on them and focus the conversation on them - ask them about themselves, commiserate with them on different topics, etc. But when I feel like the conversation shifts to me and they ask me about my interests, giving one or two word answers obviously leads to follow-up questions, which lead to me talking about my interests, which leads to people telling me that I made them feel bad about themselves. This is not my intent. I want to be well-liked, make new friends and possibly find a partner, and I'm struggling with this lately.
Here's an example from last night. I met a new person and after asking them a little about themselves they asked me what I like to do for fun. I answered that I'm an avid runner. Then they asked me about my running and I elaborated to say that I'm an avid marathon runner. Then they asked me how many I've done, and I told them that I'm doing my 11th marathon this coming weekend and that my goal for this year is to do 7 marathons (3 are already done, #4 is this weekend and then 3 more in the fall) and my first half ironman.
This is the point in the conversation where I need help. This is the part where they say that I make them feel bad or lazy or something and that's not my intent at all. I usually just say that it's just something I do to destress or something. If they ask me about my job, the same concept applies. I work a very demanding job and save a lot of lives through experimental surgeries that I assist in designing. Ugh. I like feeling good about my accomplishments because I've worked really hard, but honestly, I'm to the point where I'm just hating it all and hate talking about myself. Is that kosher to say? (That I don't want to answer your questions because I hate talking about myself)?
How do I stop turning people off? I try asking people about themselves, or talk about something else that's going on in the news or some new book, or something else totally unrelated, but is there anything else I can do? I don't want to be like this. I want to be the person that everyone wants to talk to and likes to be around. I'm not a quiet person and have tried to just shut up and be a wall flower and it's simply not my style. I don't need or want to be the center of attention, but I do want to have fun and participate in conversations because I love small talk. :(
I was raised to be a confident, achieving, independent woman. I feel I have a lot of great qualities to offer. I'm a scientist, homeowner, marathon runner, triathlete, volunteer track coach, and try my best to be a good neighbor, friend, daughter and person.
At work, I work in a strong leadership role, and my outgoing personality tends to do well. However, in my personal life, I can't help but feel like I steamroll people without realizing it sometimes. When I meet new people, I try to focus on them and focus the conversation on them - ask them about themselves, commiserate with them on different topics, etc. But when I feel like the conversation shifts to me and they ask me about my interests, giving one or two word answers obviously leads to follow-up questions, which lead to me talking about my interests, which leads to people telling me that I made them feel bad about themselves. This is not my intent. I want to be well-liked, make new friends and possibly find a partner, and I'm struggling with this lately.
Here's an example from last night. I met a new person and after asking them a little about themselves they asked me what I like to do for fun. I answered that I'm an avid runner. Then they asked me about my running and I elaborated to say that I'm an avid marathon runner. Then they asked me how many I've done, and I told them that I'm doing my 11th marathon this coming weekend and that my goal for this year is to do 7 marathons (3 are already done, #4 is this weekend and then 3 more in the fall) and my first half ironman.
This is the point in the conversation where I need help. This is the part where they say that I make them feel bad or lazy or something and that's not my intent at all. I usually just say that it's just something I do to destress or something. If they ask me about my job, the same concept applies. I work a very demanding job and save a lot of lives through experimental surgeries that I assist in designing. Ugh. I like feeling good about my accomplishments because I've worked really hard, but honestly, I'm to the point where I'm just hating it all and hate talking about myself. Is that kosher to say? (That I don't want to answer your questions because I hate talking about myself)?
How do I stop turning people off? I try asking people about themselves, or talk about something else that's going on in the news or some new book, or something else totally unrelated, but is there anything else I can do? I don't want to be like this. I want to be the person that everyone wants to talk to and likes to be around. I'm not a quiet person and have tried to just shut up and be a wall flower and it's simply not my style. I don't need or want to be the center of attention, but I do want to have fun and participate in conversations because I love small talk. :(
Response by poster: @headspace - thank you. I will try this.
"I work a very demanding job and save a lot of lives through experimental surgeries that I assist in designing."
---------> Just noting, I don't say this. I usually say what my company designs and wouldn't say something like this in these words, I think I just wrote it out that way. But thank you for pointing it out.
Thanks for the tips on focusing on maybe the weaknesses? Like when running gets really hard? Geez, because it does.
posted by floweredfish at 10:19 AM on July 8, 2011
"I work a very demanding job and save a lot of lives through experimental surgeries that I assist in designing."
---------> Just noting, I don't say this. I usually say what my company designs and wouldn't say something like this in these words, I think I just wrote it out that way. But thank you for pointing it out.
Thanks for the tips on focusing on maybe the weaknesses? Like when running gets really hard? Geez, because it does.
posted by floweredfish at 10:19 AM on July 8, 2011
When people tell me I make them feel bad because of X, I say, "Why? You're awesome."
posted by michaelh at 10:21 AM on July 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by michaelh at 10:21 AM on July 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
Well, if it helps ... if I were the other person in that scenario, and you said "oh I'm a marathoner and I've done this many ironmans and this many maxi marathons", and I said "oh my God, that makes me feel like such a slug!" ...
you wouldn't really be "turning me off". Actually, I would be really impressed, and maybe a little intimidated, but mostly admiration. I'd just be saying those self-deprecating things because I've been socially conditioned to play myself down a bit in conversation. That's just almost a reflex for me. You have a pretty new dress? "oh my gosh, I really need to upgrade my wardrobe!" You just won a photography contest? "oh wow, I *wish* I knew how to take lovely pictures." You finished your novel? "argh ... I haven't made it past chapter 4 yet."
It's not really about me feeling bad about myself, it's about me subtly reinforcing your positive feelings about yourself and your accomplishment by downplaying my own. Now, maybe that's not actually good for me ... maybe it's an indicator of low self-esteem or something. But I think probably it's just a socialized gender thing. (I am female from the American South.)
If, during the conversation, you were making an effort to ask about me and take interest in me, and then at some point in correct context you mentioned all these really impressive things about yourself, I wouldn't think you were bragging or being obnoxious. I would think, wow what a neat person I'm talking to! I think it only gets obnoxious if you're *only* talking about your impressive stuff, and clearly that's not the case.
Caveat: I am a straight woman, so I would be interacting with you purely on a friendship level. Can't say what the situation here would be with a "potential" guy.
posted by mccxxiii at 10:23 AM on July 8, 2011 [16 favorites]
you wouldn't really be "turning me off". Actually, I would be really impressed, and maybe a little intimidated, but mostly admiration. I'd just be saying those self-deprecating things because I've been socially conditioned to play myself down a bit in conversation. That's just almost a reflex for me. You have a pretty new dress? "oh my gosh, I really need to upgrade my wardrobe!" You just won a photography contest? "oh wow, I *wish* I knew how to take lovely pictures." You finished your novel? "argh ... I haven't made it past chapter 4 yet."
It's not really about me feeling bad about myself, it's about me subtly reinforcing your positive feelings about yourself and your accomplishment by downplaying my own. Now, maybe that's not actually good for me ... maybe it's an indicator of low self-esteem or something. But I think probably it's just a socialized gender thing. (I am female from the American South.)
If, during the conversation, you were making an effort to ask about me and take interest in me, and then at some point in correct context you mentioned all these really impressive things about yourself, I wouldn't think you were bragging or being obnoxious. I would think, wow what a neat person I'm talking to! I think it only gets obnoxious if you're *only* talking about your impressive stuff, and clearly that's not the case.
Caveat: I am a straight woman, so I would be interacting with you purely on a friendship level. Can't say what the situation here would be with a "potential" guy.
posted by mccxxiii at 10:23 AM on July 8, 2011 [16 favorites]
Maybe you're self editing because you've seen the way people in AskMe can steamroll unpleasant people, but you sure don't seem that bad to me. The example you gave would be different if it went Q: What do you do for fun? A: I'm an avid marathon runner who had done 11 marathons and I'm trying to do 7 this year and this is my first Ironman." But that's not how it went down. You answered questions that were put to you very specifically.
Maybe this isn't typically how it goes down and this is a bad example. But if people feel bad about their own laziness, that is in no way your fault until you start telling them how they should be running. You only make your awesome life is offensive if you're bragging. The sensitivity of others doesn't need to be concerned, and if people are continually doing this (and you are talking about your life, not bragging), it sounds to me that you need to hang out with people who are responsible for their own happiness and not trying to bring you down.
And keep in mind, saying "woo hoo, you make me feel lazy" is a conversational trope; if I say this to you (and trust me, I could), it doesn't mean I'm going to cry my eyes out because you've made me feel like a lesser human being. It's just the type of thing people say. What they really should be saying is "That's awesome -- good for you", rather than making it about themselves.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 10:23 AM on July 8, 2011 [6 favorites]
Maybe this isn't typically how it goes down and this is a bad example. But if people feel bad about their own laziness, that is in no way your fault until you start telling them how they should be running. You only make your awesome life is offensive if you're bragging. The sensitivity of others doesn't need to be concerned, and if people are continually doing this (and you are talking about your life, not bragging), it sounds to me that you need to hang out with people who are responsible for their own happiness and not trying to bring you down.
And keep in mind, saying "woo hoo, you make me feel lazy" is a conversational trope; if I say this to you (and trust me, I could), it doesn't mean I'm going to cry my eyes out because you've made me feel like a lesser human being. It's just the type of thing people say. What they really should be saying is "That's awesome -- good for you", rather than making it about themselves.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 10:23 AM on July 8, 2011 [6 favorites]
There's no way to say "I save lives" without it sounding pretentious and a bit confrontational.
posted by 2bucksplus at 10:23 AM on July 8, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by 2bucksplus at 10:23 AM on July 8, 2011 [5 favorites]
Everything else others can answer but I wanted to address the "other people tell me I make them feel bad thing."
...which lead to me talking about my interests, which leads to people telling me that I made them feel bad about themselves
I can honestly say I have never seen or heard this happen. I'm not saying you're lying, but I am questioning the social appropriateness of the people who have clearly made you feel bad about yourself. Responses outside of "oh that's cool, I wish I could do that" reflect more on the person who speaks them than on the person of whom they are envious.
This is the part where they say that I make them feel bad or lazy or something and that's not my intent at all.
Self-deprecatingly referring to their own laziness is one thing. You say "nah, it's cool" and change the copic. Vocally and humorlessly getting down on themselves (if that is what they are doing) in front of a stranger is, again, socially inappropriate on their end.
posted by griphus at 10:24 AM on July 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
...which lead to me talking about my interests, which leads to people telling me that I made them feel bad about themselves
I can honestly say I have never seen or heard this happen. I'm not saying you're lying, but I am questioning the social appropriateness of the people who have clearly made you feel bad about yourself. Responses outside of "oh that's cool, I wish I could do that" reflect more on the person who speaks them than on the person of whom they are envious.
This is the part where they say that I make them feel bad or lazy or something and that's not my intent at all.
Self-deprecatingly referring to their own laziness is one thing. You say "nah, it's cool" and change the copic. Vocally and humorlessly getting down on themselves (if that is what they are doing) in front of a stranger is, again, socially inappropriate on their end.
posted by griphus at 10:24 AM on July 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
When asked how many marathons you run. Say, "I do them every few months," rather than giving specific numbers. Relate that the time and training are difficult (which even if they're not for you, they are for the rest of us). Tell them about any injuries or setbacks you've had. Tell them what it's like to run a marathon or an ultra. Many people hallucinate during ultras. That's interesting! Focus on the process of running a marathon, not on the outcome or numbers.
When you say "I work a very demanding job and save a lot of lives through experimental surgeries that I assist in designing," that comes across as really arrogant. I get that you don't want to sound this way, but you do, even in this post.
You tend to be direct and to the point. You're describing these things as factually as you see them. (I'm guessing you're an INTJ personality type, or one similar to it.)
Realize that it's not just what you say, but how you say it that's important. Don't make a blanket statement that comes out sounding like "I...save a lot of lives." Say, "I assist in surgeries." When they ask more questions, give a specific example of a surgery that helped someone. Talk about that individual and his or her family. Mention what they did for a living and how your surgery helped him or her. Again, focus on process, not on outcomes.
Don't say "I make the best wine in the world." Say, "this is how I make wine." It will make you seem more human.
posted by cnc at 10:26 AM on July 8, 2011 [4 favorites]
When you say "I work a very demanding job and save a lot of lives through experimental surgeries that I assist in designing," that comes across as really arrogant. I get that you don't want to sound this way, but you do, even in this post.
You tend to be direct and to the point. You're describing these things as factually as you see them. (I'm guessing you're an INTJ personality type, or one similar to it.)
Realize that it's not just what you say, but how you say it that's important. Don't make a blanket statement that comes out sounding like "I...save a lot of lives." Say, "I assist in surgeries." When they ask more questions, give a specific example of a surgery that helped someone. Talk about that individual and his or her family. Mention what they did for a living and how your surgery helped him or her. Again, focus on process, not on outcomes.
Don't say "I make the best wine in the world." Say, "this is how I make wine." It will make you seem more human.
posted by cnc at 10:26 AM on July 8, 2011 [4 favorites]
Often times I speak to people who are very successful and interesting but what separates the steamrollers from the humble people is their tone when talking about their successes. I can't tell you whether or not your tone makes you sound like you're talking down to people or not, but it's something to think about, or to ask a close friend to judge.
And honestly, don't be ashamed about what you've accomplished. If it makes other people feel bad, that's their problem, not yours. Yeah, I'm a classic underachiever, and when I meet really successful, interesting people, I try to think of them as inspirational instead of seeing myself as 'less'.
Please, please don't focus on your weaknesses or be demure. That makes me feel icky because it makes it seem like because you are a woman you shouldn't be allowed to display pride or confidence. Be proud and don't hide your accomplishments just to make other people feel better about themselves.
posted by greta simone at 10:27 AM on July 8, 2011 [6 favorites]
And honestly, don't be ashamed about what you've accomplished. If it makes other people feel bad, that's their problem, not yours. Yeah, I'm a classic underachiever, and when I meet really successful, interesting people, I try to think of them as inspirational instead of seeing myself as 'less'.
Please, please don't focus on your weaknesses or be demure. That makes me feel icky because it makes it seem like because you are a woman you shouldn't be allowed to display pride or confidence. Be proud and don't hide your accomplishments just to make other people feel better about themselves.
posted by greta simone at 10:27 AM on July 8, 2011 [6 favorites]
1. Talk about your less amazing hobbies - unless all you do is run, of course. Some of my spare time stuff sounds a bit intimidating, so I usually lead with baking, playing with the cat, and biking rather than reading critical theory, political activism and teaching classes. If someone says "and what kind of movies do you like?", I tend to say that I don't watch a lot of movies or occasionally "Oh, just snobby art movies with boring plots" (which goes over surprisingly well even though put-downs can sometimes read as inverse boasting).
2. Lead with "I'm in [medical field], designing procedures" rather than "I design experimental surgeries". You could also say something like "Oh, I got into it because [reason]", assuming there's an element of chance or luck involved. "I got into it because I had this great professor who [THING]" or "through my school's great program in [thing]" rather than "I got into it because I was recruited to MIT and it seemed like anything else would be a letdown".
Also, you might ask yourself what you get out of steamrollering people. I sometimes go into dazzle mode myself - not that I am extraordinarily awesome, but I'm odd enough that people sometimes find my hobbies intriguing - because on some level I want to dominate the conversation as a boost to my self esteem, or because I want to control the interaction instead of having it be unpredictable. These are things I do a lot less now because I've worked on them, but it wasn't just a matter of learning conversational techniques; it was a matter of accepting that I had motives for acting as I did.
posted by Frowner at 10:28 AM on July 8, 2011 [5 favorites]
2. Lead with "I'm in [medical field], designing procedures" rather than "I design experimental surgeries". You could also say something like "Oh, I got into it because [reason]", assuming there's an element of chance or luck involved. "I got into it because I had this great professor who [THING]" or "through my school's great program in [thing]" rather than "I got into it because I was recruited to MIT and it seemed like anything else would be a letdown".
Also, you might ask yourself what you get out of steamrollering people. I sometimes go into dazzle mode myself - not that I am extraordinarily awesome, but I'm odd enough that people sometimes find my hobbies intriguing - because on some level I want to dominate the conversation as a boost to my self esteem, or because I want to control the interaction instead of having it be unpredictable. These are things I do a lot less now because I've worked on them, but it wasn't just a matter of learning conversational techniques; it was a matter of accepting that I had motives for acting as I did.
posted by Frowner at 10:28 AM on July 8, 2011 [5 favorites]
Without having been present for the conversations you're describing, it's hard to say whether, as you fear, you're really coming off as a jerk -- or whether it's mostly in your head. Are you certain that your interlocutors actually feel bad about themselves? Is it possible they're simply giving an amused, self-deprecating response?
If someone told me she was an avid marathon runner, I'd pat my large stomach and joke about the fact that I'm not about to run a marathon anytime soon, but I wouldn't actually feel bad, and I certainly wouldn't conclude that she was a self-impressed jerk.
Unless you're certain you've been upsetting people, consider giving yourself a break.
(Of course, whether or not the interlocutor actually feels bad, nothing's wrong with steering the conversation to a topic where he can shine too.)
posted by foursentences at 10:29 AM on July 8, 2011
If someone told me she was an avid marathon runner, I'd pat my large stomach and joke about the fact that I'm not about to run a marathon anytime soon, but I wouldn't actually feel bad, and I certainly wouldn't conclude that she was a self-impressed jerk.
Unless you're certain you've been upsetting people, consider giving yourself a break.
(Of course, whether or not the interlocutor actually feels bad, nothing's wrong with steering the conversation to a topic where he can shine too.)
posted by foursentences at 10:29 AM on July 8, 2011
When someone says, "Wow, that makes me feel so lazy," two minutes into a conversation about your accomplishments, I don't know that I'd necessarily read that as them actually feeling bad about themselves. It sounds more like a stock compliment paid at a moment in the conversation when compliments would traditionally be indicated.
I think the key factor in the development of the rest of the relationship is going to be how you handle things from there. If you appear to take the compliment literally, either by being patronizing to the person ("Not at all, your hobbies are great too!") or by being elaborately self-effacing ("Oh, it's just a little thing I do to destress"), the assumption will naturally be that you actually are somewhat besotted with your own accomplishments, and that's definitely a little offputting. (Frankly, your question itself leaves this impression a bit, not because you've got an awesome job and cool hobbies, but because you spend a lot of time talking about what kind of person you are because of them.
On preview, I think headspace has it: try to move as quickly as you can away from discussing your job/hobbies as attributes of You, and focus more on the activities themselves. So when someone says, "Ugh, I feel so lazy now," try responding, "Yeah, it's definitely a slog sometimes, but I meet so many interesting people that it makes it worthwhile. Just the other day there was this guy who...". Or "Yeah, it's tiring, but I really find it centering. I was reading this book on the physiology of meditation the other day, and the author was saying...".
That's, after all, what's going to be most interesting to your conversation partner: the enticing tidbits of information that you can add to the conversation by virtue of your life experiences. It's only when you get stuck thinking that you're both actually talking about how awesome you are that you're likely to turn into a bore.
posted by Bardolph at 10:31 AM on July 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think the key factor in the development of the rest of the relationship is going to be how you handle things from there. If you appear to take the compliment literally, either by being patronizing to the person ("Not at all, your hobbies are great too!") or by being elaborately self-effacing ("Oh, it's just a little thing I do to destress"), the assumption will naturally be that you actually are somewhat besotted with your own accomplishments, and that's definitely a little offputting. (Frankly, your question itself leaves this impression a bit, not because you've got an awesome job and cool hobbies, but because you spend a lot of time talking about what kind of person you are because of them.
On preview, I think headspace has it: try to move as quickly as you can away from discussing your job/hobbies as attributes of You, and focus more on the activities themselves. So when someone says, "Ugh, I feel so lazy now," try responding, "Yeah, it's definitely a slog sometimes, but I meet so many interesting people that it makes it worthwhile. Just the other day there was this guy who...". Or "Yeah, it's tiring, but I really find it centering. I was reading this book on the physiology of meditation the other day, and the author was saying...".
That's, after all, what's going to be most interesting to your conversation partner: the enticing tidbits of information that you can add to the conversation by virtue of your life experiences. It's only when you get stuck thinking that you're both actually talking about how awesome you are that you're likely to turn into a bore.
posted by Bardolph at 10:31 AM on July 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks everyone. I just wanted to add that I only answer their questions with as minimal information possible (as in what McMikeNamara mentioned) - e.g. "I'm a runner" and not "I've done blahblahblah" because they don't need that information unless they really want to hear about it. Haha. The last thing I want to do is come across as a bragging asshole, so I try to keep it in check.
I never say "I save lives" because that's just ridiculous. I do tell them about the projects I'm working on and what my company does though.
In the example I gave of the running conversation last night, the girl I was talking to actually said "Wow, you really make me feel bad about myself". And that made me feel terrible! It wasn't my intent. :( What do I say at that point? Last night I think I responded with some crappy joke of "well, it's only because I fall asleep in yoga class because I stink at yoga" or something.
I don't know if that helps.
posted by floweredfish at 10:31 AM on July 8, 2011
I never say "I save lives" because that's just ridiculous. I do tell them about the projects I'm working on and what my company does though.
In the example I gave of the running conversation last night, the girl I was talking to actually said "Wow, you really make me feel bad about myself". And that made me feel terrible! It wasn't my intent. :( What do I say at that point? Last night I think I responded with some crappy joke of "well, it's only because I fall asleep in yoga class because I stink at yoga" or something.
I don't know if that helps.
posted by floweredfish at 10:31 AM on July 8, 2011
I have a pretty fascinating job, if I do say so, which involves travelling about 175 days a year (often to exotic destinations) so I get my share of "oh wow." I try to focus on the many things this lifestyle precludes that the other person enjoys and share my real envy. For example, when someone makes a "that much travel is so glamorous" type comment, I don't complain about airports to offset it (which is a form of showing off); instead, I say something like "Well, like anything it gets old after awhile. I miss being more involved in our town, like the way you coach kids/act in community theater/know the letter carrier by name. Tell me more about x." You can make the other person feel good about their choices and understand that you respect them.
posted by carmicha at 10:32 AM on July 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by carmicha at 10:32 AM on July 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
the girl I was talking to actually said "Wow, you really make me feel bad about myself".
That is some passive-aggressive bullshit and you would do well to ignore it.
posted by griphus at 10:33 AM on July 8, 2011 [15 favorites]
That is some passive-aggressive bullshit and you would do well to ignore it.
posted by griphus at 10:33 AM on July 8, 2011 [15 favorites]
I'm struggling with this, as I have for a long time. My fiance just had to read (don't laugh) How to Win Friends and Influence People for his business class, and it seems to have made an impression enough to talk about the principles here and there. The big one is to listen more.
I find that I talk a lot because people didn't listen to me a lot when I was growing up, and/or dismissed what I had to say -- even though I, like you, had a lot of great things to add to a conversation. I talk less when I know I am being listened to; in those situations, I don't have to blurt out or run on and on because I don't know when I'll have another chance to talk. And the irony is that I'm an introvert! It took me forever to figure that out.
So: when you're in conversations, try to listen more than you talk. Give people opportunities to talk about themselves and share what's really going on; try to find things out from them as simple as where they grew up or what their favorite restaurant is. Then they'll hopefully give you more opportunities to share your own story. In time, hopefully, you'll find that it's more natural because you know that you don't have to worry that people will dismiss you.
How's it working for me? I'll have to get back to you on that...
posted by Madamina at 10:38 AM on July 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
I find that I talk a lot because people didn't listen to me a lot when I was growing up, and/or dismissed what I had to say -- even though I, like you, had a lot of great things to add to a conversation. I talk less when I know I am being listened to; in those situations, I don't have to blurt out or run on and on because I don't know when I'll have another chance to talk. And the irony is that I'm an introvert! It took me forever to figure that out.
So: when you're in conversations, try to listen more than you talk. Give people opportunities to talk about themselves and share what's really going on; try to find things out from them as simple as where they grew up or what their favorite restaurant is. Then they'll hopefully give you more opportunities to share your own story. In time, hopefully, you'll find that it's more natural because you know that you don't have to worry that people will dismiss you.
How's it working for me? I'll have to get back to you on that...
posted by Madamina at 10:38 AM on July 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
the girl I was talking to actually said "Wow, you really make me feel bad about myself".
That's her problem, not yours.
You don't come off sounding as bad as you seem to think, in my opinion. I often feel the same way about myself and try to focus on steering conversations away from me-talking to me-listening. It takes time to keep that focus, especially if you like to talk about the things you do (who doesn't, really?).
posted by Pantengliopoli at 10:39 AM on July 8, 2011
That's her problem, not yours.
You don't come off sounding as bad as you seem to think, in my opinion. I often feel the same way about myself and try to focus on steering conversations away from me-talking to me-listening. It takes time to keep that focus, especially if you like to talk about the things you do (who doesn't, really?).
posted by Pantengliopoli at 10:39 AM on July 8, 2011
Oh, and yes: if you're hanging around with passive aggressive people or others who put you down, find other people. I can't stress this enough.
Remember that when people insult you, it's typically because of something that makes them uncomfortable about themselves, not because of anything you did.
posted by Madamina at 10:39 AM on July 8, 2011
Remember that when people insult you, it's typically because of something that makes them uncomfortable about themselves, not because of anything you did.
posted by Madamina at 10:39 AM on July 8, 2011
In your example, you've been asked about your interests, which then you discuss in terms of accomplishments. (Goal: 11. 3 down. 1 coming up.). That's not very "interest"ing, and it shifts the conversation in the direction of achievement.
posted by xo at 10:40 AM on July 8, 2011 [9 favorites]
posted by xo at 10:40 AM on July 8, 2011 [9 favorites]
I also have a pretty interesting job (do HIV research) and do a lot of very interesting stuff in my off time as well. Mostly, I think people just want to know that I'm human. I happen to not be in top physical shape, so my flaw may be on the outside, therefore, people automatically know I'm not perfect, but with you being a marathoner, I assume they need to know this in a less subtle way.
At first, I just wanted to say, "Aw, fuck 'em." but that's not what you came here for, so I'll just add that, while you don't need to flaunt your flaws, just make sure people don't come off with the impression that you're perfect. After you relate stories about being a marathoner and a scientist, let them know about something you wish you could do. Especially if it's something the person you're talking to is good at.
posted by Sophie1 at 10:41 AM on July 8, 2011
At first, I just wanted to say, "Aw, fuck 'em." but that's not what you came here for, so I'll just add that, while you don't need to flaunt your flaws, just make sure people don't come off with the impression that you're perfect. After you relate stories about being a marathoner and a scientist, let them know about something you wish you could do. Especially if it's something the person you're talking to is good at.
posted by Sophie1 at 10:41 AM on July 8, 2011
the girl I was talking to actually said "Wow, you really make me feel bad about myself".
griphus: That is some passive-aggressive bullshit and you would do well to ignore it.
I disagree. When I was in college, I was running from downtown to my house, and I passed some people who were a bit dressed up and probably headed for the bars, or maybe just a restaurant downtown. One of the women in the group said something like "let me join you," which I took to mean that she felt like she should be exercising more, but instead was going to do something fun.
I think the person who said they felt bad about themselves meant she felt like she should be doing more, but was slacking off. It's raising what you up while lowering herself (which is why the OP feels like a jerk). Sure, there could be a passive-aggressive way to say it, but it doesn't have to be that way.
To diffuse such a comment, you could talk about how you started running - you weren't born with running shoes, you had to work up to what you do now. Talk about how it feels to practice for your long runs, and how the runs themselves feel (it's not like skipping through the wildflowers).
And I agree with Madamina - listen more. If the other person runs out of things to say, ask more questions. Be interested in them.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:42 AM on July 8, 2011
griphus: That is some passive-aggressive bullshit and you would do well to ignore it.
I disagree. When I was in college, I was running from downtown to my house, and I passed some people who were a bit dressed up and probably headed for the bars, or maybe just a restaurant downtown. One of the women in the group said something like "let me join you," which I took to mean that she felt like she should be exercising more, but instead was going to do something fun.
I think the person who said they felt bad about themselves meant she felt like she should be doing more, but was slacking off. It's raising what you up while lowering herself (which is why the OP feels like a jerk). Sure, there could be a passive-aggressive way to say it, but it doesn't have to be that way.
To diffuse such a comment, you could talk about how you started running - you weren't born with running shoes, you had to work up to what you do now. Talk about how it feels to practice for your long runs, and how the runs themselves feel (it's not like skipping through the wildflowers).
And I agree with Madamina - listen more. If the other person runs out of things to say, ask more questions. Be interested in them.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:42 AM on July 8, 2011
the girl I was talking to actually said "Wow, you really make me feel bad about myself".
"Actualy you'd be surprised how many people can run a marathon with the right combination of training and persistence, it's not like you need special legs or anything."
I find that often a good way to make these conversations go better is to talk about yourself as part of a team rather than an individual. It can seem a lot less "this is about me" and more "I am involved in some interesting things" It's also, I think, easier for people to relate to being in a group that does inteersting things [workplace, church, family, whatever] than being a standalone interesting-thing doer.
I also sometimes spend some time making sure I'm leveling the playing field sometimes talking about the things I DON'T do that other people do that are also worthwhile. This can come across weird sometimes but when I get in a situation wher someone's saying "Eh I could never do what you do" that's my cue to stfu generally but also be like "Yeah but I can spend all this time doing xyz because I don't have a family. I'd like to be able to maybe dial it down a notch so that I could have a garden" that sort of thing. I think people sometimes see confident people as not having issues/problems when I think sometimes confidence is about not really mentioning or playing up issues/problems, so switching to challenges and less-optimal things about yourself might help a little.
posted by jessamyn at 10:45 AM on July 8, 2011 [3 favorites]
"Actualy you'd be surprised how many people can run a marathon with the right combination of training and persistence, it's not like you need special legs or anything."
I find that often a good way to make these conversations go better is to talk about yourself as part of a team rather than an individual. It can seem a lot less "this is about me" and more "I am involved in some interesting things" It's also, I think, easier for people to relate to being in a group that does inteersting things [workplace, church, family, whatever] than being a standalone interesting-thing doer.
I also sometimes spend some time making sure I'm leveling the playing field sometimes talking about the things I DON'T do that other people do that are also worthwhile. This can come across weird sometimes but when I get in a situation wher someone's saying "Eh I could never do what you do" that's my cue to stfu generally but also be like "Yeah but I can spend all this time doing xyz because I don't have a family. I'd like to be able to maybe dial it down a notch so that I could have a garden" that sort of thing. I think people sometimes see confident people as not having issues/problems when I think sometimes confidence is about not really mentioning or playing up issues/problems, so switching to challenges and less-optimal things about yourself might help a little.
posted by jessamyn at 10:45 AM on July 8, 2011 [3 favorites]
Sure, there could be a passive-aggressive way to say it, but it doesn't have to be that way.
I'll concede that tone is a big deal, but unless she was some sort of jedi of deadpan, it still sounds like "I'll make you feel like crap about your choices, because you just made me feel like crap about mine."
posted by griphus at 10:47 AM on July 8, 2011
I'll concede that tone is a big deal, but unless she was some sort of jedi of deadpan, it still sounds like "I'll make you feel like crap about your choices, because you just made me feel like crap about mine."
posted by griphus at 10:47 AM on July 8, 2011
Response by poster: Oh my goodness, this is helping so much - thank you, everyone.
I love the ideas on focusing on flaws. I'm typically the type of person where if I can't do something, I study it and learn about it so I can fix it (like cooking - I used to burn water so I took an assload of cooking classes) - so maybe focus on the fact that I'm a crappy cook or have respect for people who do yoga because I can't do it myself?
I have trouble with the "How I got into XXX" explanation, because it doesn't help the cause, which is to make straight female friends or attract a male partner. Honestly, I got into running due to other sporting activities that I'm quite competitve at and my work due to similar, so I tend to avoid those questions like the plague.
Maybe another issue is that I tend to quantify things and talk about things in measurable ways (which ties directly to my line of work) - so maybe I should focus more on softening that? Like instead of XXX races, more along the lines of how they make me feel or their difficulties or the fact that it's much more of a lifestyle for me than an interest?
This is helping so much. Seriously - thank you everyone.
posted by floweredfish at 10:50 AM on July 8, 2011
I love the ideas on focusing on flaws. I'm typically the type of person where if I can't do something, I study it and learn about it so I can fix it (like cooking - I used to burn water so I took an assload of cooking classes) - so maybe focus on the fact that I'm a crappy cook or have respect for people who do yoga because I can't do it myself?
I have trouble with the "How I got into XXX" explanation, because it doesn't help the cause, which is to make straight female friends or attract a male partner. Honestly, I got into running due to other sporting activities that I'm quite competitve at and my work due to similar, so I tend to avoid those questions like the plague.
Maybe another issue is that I tend to quantify things and talk about things in measurable ways (which ties directly to my line of work) - so maybe I should focus more on softening that? Like instead of XXX races, more along the lines of how they make me feel or their difficulties or the fact that it's much more of a lifestyle for me than an interest?
This is helping so much. Seriously - thank you everyone.
posted by floweredfish at 10:50 AM on July 8, 2011
If you feel that your personal background is a bit intimidating for some people then when talking about yourself and your goals you don't have to get into specifics so very quickly. You're allowed to be vague. For instance to answer the question about how many marathons you've done you could just say, oh a couple and then moved on to a different topic. If the person you were talking to said that they were a long distance runner as well and you then you mentioned all the details about how many you did and what your goals were then they would have been impressed and the conversation would have been alot more interesting for the both of you.
btw, somebody who has a achieved alot in life is total turn on for some people.
posted by canned polar bear at 10:54 AM on July 8, 2011
btw, somebody who has a achieved alot in life is total turn on for some people.
posted by canned polar bear at 10:54 AM on July 8, 2011
flowered fish: the girl I was talking to actually said "Wow, you really make me feel bad about myself".
griphus: That is some passive-aggressive bullshit and you would do well to ignore it.
I completely agree with griphus and I think you should just steer clear of people like that girl because they are emotional vampires.
You sound fine to me and not bad at all. I don't think you sound pretentious, confrontational, bragging ... I've certainly encountered my fair share of people like that and the way you describe what you say just isn't ringing that bell to me. Granted I've never seen how you actually are in person, but from you description, I'd love to talk to you at a party or wherever.
It sounds to me like you are doing everything right and you just need to meet some more secure people.
posted by Ashley801 at 10:57 AM on July 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
griphus: That is some passive-aggressive bullshit and you would do well to ignore it.
I completely agree with griphus and I think you should just steer clear of people like that girl because they are emotional vampires.
You sound fine to me and not bad at all. I don't think you sound pretentious, confrontational, bragging ... I've certainly encountered my fair share of people like that and the way you describe what you say just isn't ringing that bell to me. Granted I've never seen how you actually are in person, but from you description, I'd love to talk to you at a party or wherever.
It sounds to me like you are doing everything right and you just need to meet some more secure people.
posted by Ashley801 at 10:57 AM on July 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
Why don't you just seek out people who are similarly driven? The marathoners I know tend to hang out with other endurance athletes. I don't think you should have to tone down things like "my goal for this year is to do 7 marathons" because that's how endurance athletes push themselves. They've done 7 or are doing one a month or want to do a desert and mountain or xx by the time they're 50 or whatever. Find people to hang out with who are like you so that you can be yourself.
posted by headnsouth at 11:00 AM on July 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by headnsouth at 11:00 AM on July 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
I have trouble with the "How I got into XXX" explanation, because it doesn't help the cause, which is to make straight female friends or attract a male partner. Honestly, I got into running due to other sporting activities that I'm quite competitve at and my work due to similar, so I tend to avoid those questions like the plague.
This seems like a slightly different question, as if you're looking to seem like a less accomplished person in order to attract people. There's a world of difference between wanting to make others feel comfortable (which often leads to a relationship where you're able to say "yes, I save lives with my work" because you've build comfort and trust) and hiding what you do. If you do awesome stuff, you need friends and partners who can deal with that reality - even if you need to build a little trust first.
There's also a bit of a difference between "putting semi-strangers at ease at a cocktail party" and "downplaying the real truth of your life in the process of seeking real friends".
I don't know - maybe you need to seek out more accomplished people? Not necessarily Nobel short-list triatheletes, but folks with some research or athletic background so that you'll have commonalities.
posted by Frowner at 11:05 AM on July 8, 2011
This seems like a slightly different question, as if you're looking to seem like a less accomplished person in order to attract people. There's a world of difference between wanting to make others feel comfortable (which often leads to a relationship where you're able to say "yes, I save lives with my work" because you've build comfort and trust) and hiding what you do. If you do awesome stuff, you need friends and partners who can deal with that reality - even if you need to build a little trust first.
There's also a bit of a difference between "putting semi-strangers at ease at a cocktail party" and "downplaying the real truth of your life in the process of seeking real friends".
I don't know - maybe you need to seek out more accomplished people? Not necessarily Nobel short-list triatheletes, but folks with some research or athletic background so that you'll have commonalities.
posted by Frowner at 11:05 AM on July 8, 2011
Go on with your bad self. If I met you at a party I would want to hear all about your marathons and your experimental surgeries. I'm not particularly driven; I just like to hear about cool things. Don't worry about the rest.
posted by yarly at 11:10 AM on July 8, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by yarly at 11:10 AM on July 8, 2011 [5 favorites]
If you are awesome, be awesome and make no apologies for it. But also, be genuinely interested in others. In that way, you can make it possible for others to see that they are just as awesome as you are, even without running marathons and saving lives. It can be a big boost for a shier person to be drawn out by someone who on the surface seems so much more interesting.
I don't think there is much to be gained by labeling people who are not 100% confident in themselves as emotional vampires. We are all trying the best we can; sometimes we fail.
posted by mimo at 11:16 AM on July 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
I don't think there is much to be gained by labeling people who are not 100% confident in themselves as emotional vampires. We are all trying the best we can; sometimes we fail.
posted by mimo at 11:16 AM on July 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
I have something of the same problem. And I love what I do, so it's hard for me to resist talking about it ad nauseum if a person asks the right questions. And I'm very confident and get a bit impatient with people who aren't and that's how I sometimes steamroll people. On the flip side, I'm really warm and nice and interested in people, so it somewhat balances out.
I think if you really focus on your flaws you may come off as fake or condescending. Everyone has plenty of flaws, so they can be part of what you talk about (ideally jokingly/self-depracatingly, see Hugue Grant) but I wouldn't only talk about them.
I think you're right to stop quantifying what you do, and I think you should err on the side of modesty. That said, I think being passionate is an incredibly attractive quality, and it's ok to be passionate about your passions. Do you have weird, interesting anecdotes to tell about running or saving lives? Maybe work them into the conversation so it's not all about you, but is rather about a something you are passionate about?
Fwiw, you sound like a cool person to me. I wouldn't be off put talking to you. But then again, I'm very confident. ;)
posted by semacd at 11:20 AM on July 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think if you really focus on your flaws you may come off as fake or condescending. Everyone has plenty of flaws, so they can be part of what you talk about (ideally jokingly/self-depracatingly, see Hugue Grant) but I wouldn't only talk about them.
I think you're right to stop quantifying what you do, and I think you should err on the side of modesty. That said, I think being passionate is an incredibly attractive quality, and it's ok to be passionate about your passions. Do you have weird, interesting anecdotes to tell about running or saving lives? Maybe work them into the conversation so it's not all about you, but is rather about a something you are passionate about?
Fwiw, you sound like a cool person to me. I wouldn't be off put talking to you. But then again, I'm very confident. ;)
posted by semacd at 11:20 AM on July 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
Just an FYI: I don't think I'm alone when I say that when I meet someone new, I actively look for things to admire and like and find interesting about them.
So I'd probably be pretty happy talking to you, and I think others would too, since you do a lot of tangible things that are interesting/inspiring.
I might also say something like, "wow, I sure feel lazy after talking to you!" but I mean that in a "man, maybe I should get off my ass" way, not a "woe is me, I suck" way.
So it would be a positive experience for me talking to somebody like you, just the way you are. Just so you know.
posted by The ____ of Justice at 11:23 AM on July 8, 2011
So I'd probably be pretty happy talking to you, and I think others would too, since you do a lot of tangible things that are interesting/inspiring.
I might also say something like, "wow, I sure feel lazy after talking to you!" but I mean that in a "man, maybe I should get off my ass" way, not a "woe is me, I suck" way.
So it would be a positive experience for me talking to somebody like you, just the way you are. Just so you know.
posted by The ____ of Justice at 11:23 AM on July 8, 2011
In your example, you've been asked about your interests, which then you discuss in terms of accomplishments. (Goal: 11. 3 down. 1 coming up.). That's not very "interest"ing, and it shifts the conversation in the direction of achievement.
xo has it. It took you three updates to say something you LIKE about running- you got into it because you play other sports and you're a competitive person. (Although now I'm rereading it and hearing it as, "I play other sports at a high level and running complements them," so...I'm not actually sure.) What do you LIKE about the stuff you do? Talk about that.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 11:32 AM on July 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
xo has it. It took you three updates to say something you LIKE about running- you got into it because you play other sports and you're a competitive person. (Although now I'm rereading it and hearing it as, "I play other sports at a high level and running complements them," so...I'm not actually sure.) What do you LIKE about the stuff you do? Talk about that.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 11:32 AM on July 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
Just say less about yourself to new acquaintances. Almost no one at a cocktail party really cares. They don't feel bad about your running, they just don't know much about it and they don't know what else to say and they're trying to be pleasantly complimentary. No one is losing sleep about it and you shouldn't either.
Upgrade your peer group when searching for new friends. There are plenty of people who will be eager to talk about your running and who won't be intimidated by your accomplishments. Maybe you're already too big of a fish for the ponds you've been swimming in. Find a bigger pond. There's always a bigger pond. But always be careful not to let it out that you think you're the big fish. If you watch the big fish...they make other people feel like they're the big fish.
posted by Kwine at 11:32 AM on July 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
Upgrade your peer group when searching for new friends. There are plenty of people who will be eager to talk about your running and who won't be intimidated by your accomplishments. Maybe you're already too big of a fish for the ponds you've been swimming in. Find a bigger pond. There's always a bigger pond. But always be careful not to let it out that you think you're the big fish. If you watch the big fish...they make other people feel like they're the big fish.
posted by Kwine at 11:32 AM on July 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
That girl was probably making a poor jokes because she had nothing to say about running.
I honestly don't buy the "their all intimidated by you" line of thinking as I think its probably a conversational mismatch more than anything. Small talk can be hard and its much more likely she she just didn't know what to say and was trying to be funny.
The trick in these kinds of situations is to find something that you can have a conversation about and not a q and a session.
If your conversation partner is a runner - fantastic you can then talk about running stuff. But if they have no clue about running and make a throw away remark you should work on turning the conversation to something you can both discuss. For example she asks "What do you do for fun?" you say "I'm a runner blah blah." then she says "oh that makes me feel like a slug!" You laugh (assuming her tone is a joking one) then make a comment like "How do you know ben?" "It took me forever to drive over here traffic is really bad." or "I run a lot in the mornings and I can't believe how cold its been and its supposed to be summer" or "thats a lovely necklace where did you get it?"
You steer the conversation to neutral topics (or topics you know they know something about like the host) to do an end run around awkward q and a style small talk.
posted by SpaceWarp13 at 12:02 PM on July 8, 2011
I honestly don't buy the "their all intimidated by you" line of thinking as I think its probably a conversational mismatch more than anything. Small talk can be hard and its much more likely she she just didn't know what to say and was trying to be funny.
The trick in these kinds of situations is to find something that you can have a conversation about and not a q and a session.
If your conversation partner is a runner - fantastic you can then talk about running stuff. But if they have no clue about running and make a throw away remark you should work on turning the conversation to something you can both discuss. For example she asks "What do you do for fun?" you say "I'm a runner blah blah." then she says "oh that makes me feel like a slug!" You laugh (assuming her tone is a joking one) then make a comment like "How do you know ben?" "It took me forever to drive over here traffic is really bad." or "I run a lot in the mornings and I can't believe how cold its been and its supposed to be summer" or "thats a lovely necklace where did you get it?"
You steer the conversation to neutral topics (or topics you know they know something about like the host) to do an end run around awkward q and a style small talk.
posted by SpaceWarp13 at 12:02 PM on July 8, 2011
That is some passive-aggressive bullshit and you would do well to ignore it.
I completely agree with griphus and I think you should just steer clear of people like that girl because they are emotional vampires.
I come down more on the side of filthy light thief on this issue -- in many situations, I think the desired message of "I feel bad now" is more "oh wow, that's really impressive" instead of "I'm unhappy now and it's your fault." That is to say, they're not really saying that they feel bad and it's your fault, it's a complicated shorthand for "this is not an area that I am at all equipped to have a pissing contest with you about, so I am preemptively letting you know that I am not a threat in this regard!"
If it feels natural, you could try some gentle self-deprecating humor ("I know, seven marathons in a year, kind of a weird way to de-stress, but it's worked for me") or, as jessamyn suggested, make it clear that you don't think you're God's gift just because you do some cool things.
posted by DLWM at 12:07 PM on July 8, 2011
I completely agree with griphus and I think you should just steer clear of people like that girl because they are emotional vampires.
I come down more on the side of filthy light thief on this issue -- in many situations, I think the desired message of "I feel bad now" is more "oh wow, that's really impressive" instead of "I'm unhappy now and it's your fault." That is to say, they're not really saying that they feel bad and it's your fault, it's a complicated shorthand for "this is not an area that I am at all equipped to have a pissing contest with you about, so I am preemptively letting you know that I am not a threat in this regard!"
If it feels natural, you could try some gentle self-deprecating humor ("I know, seven marathons in a year, kind of a weird way to de-stress, but it's worked for me") or, as jessamyn suggested, make it clear that you don't think you're God's gift just because you do some cool things.
posted by DLWM at 12:07 PM on July 8, 2011
I don't think you need to seem like less than you are, or focus on flaws, but rather be a little self-deprecating. Not in a fake way, but in a genuine way. People like to know you don't take yourself too seriously (and many high-achieving people DO take themselves too seriously and, therefore, aren't really any fun to hang out with). Show that you have a sense of humor about yourself. It helps bridge initial awkwardness.
It doesn't even have to be particularly specific or original; when people get weirdly gushy about my hobbies or work ("OMG, you rehabbed 47 raptors this month in between teaching underwater basketweaving to incarcerated mothers of twins? That's AMAZING!"), I usually just laugh and say, "Well, you know, it keeps me off the streets!" and change the subject. It always gets a guffaw and eases any tension. Which would be doubly funny to say about marathoning because then you could be like, "I mean, um, I guess it keeps me on the streets? But in an off-the-streets sort of way?" But a little joke deflects and redirects when people are getting into uncomfortable or weird territory or have managed to crash the conversation.
People say awkward things without meaning to and grind conversations to a halt all the time. It's not necessarily you. Most of us aren't super-great conversationalists and often feel awkward in company. It's a good skill to be able to ease the conversation back on the rails when people say something meant to be conversational but that comes out as dumb or awkward (which happens to all of us).
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:09 PM on July 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
It doesn't even have to be particularly specific or original; when people get weirdly gushy about my hobbies or work ("OMG, you rehabbed 47 raptors this month in between teaching underwater basketweaving to incarcerated mothers of twins? That's AMAZING!"), I usually just laugh and say, "Well, you know, it keeps me off the streets!" and change the subject. It always gets a guffaw and eases any tension. Which would be doubly funny to say about marathoning because then you could be like, "I mean, um, I guess it keeps me on the streets? But in an off-the-streets sort of way?" But a little joke deflects and redirects when people are getting into uncomfortable or weird territory or have managed to crash the conversation.
People say awkward things without meaning to and grind conversations to a halt all the time. It's not necessarily you. Most of us aren't super-great conversationalists and often feel awkward in company. It's a good skill to be able to ease the conversation back on the rails when people say something meant to be conversational but that comes out as dumb or awkward (which happens to all of us).
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:09 PM on July 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
I don't think you are saying/doing anything wrong, but if you are getting the sensation that you are steamrolling people, I would ask a friend. They may notice things we do not. Maybe posture, tone, attitude. Maybe nothing at all and you are creating it all in your head due to some insecurity in your self that doesn't match up to what your actual successes are.
posted by Vaike at 12:30 PM on July 8, 2011
posted by Vaike at 12:30 PM on July 8, 2011
I have a feeling that this has more to do with tone, body language, attitude, etc. that you should ask friends about. Outside of that, my advice would be simply, "find a social circle of more accomplished/less easily intimidated people."
I cannot possibly imagine an avid marathon runner describing her hobbies or an accomplished professional describing her job being a social turn-off for people.
posted by deanc at 12:53 PM on July 8, 2011
I cannot possibly imagine an avid marathon runner describing her hobbies or an accomplished professional describing her job being a social turn-off for people.
posted by deanc at 12:53 PM on July 8, 2011
answer the first question with "X, but I hate talking about myself."
posted by Ironmouth at 1:02 PM on July 8, 2011
posted by Ironmouth at 1:02 PM on July 8, 2011
I agree with others about focusing more on what you do than what you have achieved, and why you like something rather than how much you have accomplished.
The marathon topic may be causing you trouble because...many of the woman I know spend a lot of time thinking about exercising and dieting, and often talk about how much more they should exercise and how much less they should weigh. (Let me be clear: I know that this is not every woman, or most women; it's just some women. Myself included.) This can be a really difficult subject for some women, and can bring out the worst in people. It doesn't mean you shouldn't talk about what you do, or be super proud of what you do; it's just something to be aware of.
What I think it comes down to, though, is that it's important to act in a way that you'd like others to act. Imagine you asked someone what they liked to do in their free time, and they said something awesome and amazing that you aren't any good at, but know is pretty great. How would you want them to tell it to you? What tone would they take? How long should they talk about it? How could they bring you into the conversation, if it was something you were a bit insecure about? You'd probably want them to be pretty modest, show a fair amount of humility, and let you take on the responsibility of finding out more information. (It sounds like that's pretty much what you did.)
Ok, summary: You are great. Be aware that others are great too, in other ways, and that your own brand of greatness could be in an area where others feel a lot of insecurity. But don't let that stop you from being who you are and acting like the type of friend you want to find.
posted by violetish at 1:03 PM on July 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
The marathon topic may be causing you trouble because...many of the woman I know spend a lot of time thinking about exercising and dieting, and often talk about how much more they should exercise and how much less they should weigh. (Let me be clear: I know that this is not every woman, or most women; it's just some women. Myself included.) This can be a really difficult subject for some women, and can bring out the worst in people. It doesn't mean you shouldn't talk about what you do, or be super proud of what you do; it's just something to be aware of.
What I think it comes down to, though, is that it's important to act in a way that you'd like others to act. Imagine you asked someone what they liked to do in their free time, and they said something awesome and amazing that you aren't any good at, but know is pretty great. How would you want them to tell it to you? What tone would they take? How long should they talk about it? How could they bring you into the conversation, if it was something you were a bit insecure about? You'd probably want them to be pretty modest, show a fair amount of humility, and let you take on the responsibility of finding out more information. (It sounds like that's pretty much what you did.)
Ok, summary: You are great. Be aware that others are great too, in other ways, and that your own brand of greatness could be in an area where others feel a lot of insecurity. But don't let that stop you from being who you are and acting like the type of friend you want to find.
posted by violetish at 1:03 PM on July 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
It's kind of interesting in a way...sometimes when people say 'oh you make me feel so lazy', in their heads they might be thinking "there's no way i'd give up my sunday mornings in bed with my boyfriend" (gf/partner/spouse). Maybe they also don't want your demanding job (I wouldn't- but I'm lazy like that). So it's possible that in a way, they are being polite.
Also, you are looking for friends and partners. Maybe other people are happy in those or different ways. You are competitive and that's awesome. But not everyone is...so when they make comments they might not really be comparing their lives to yours as much as you think (in a negative way). So just be yourself...and don't overthink their responses in that way.
And like someone else said, it would definitely be good to seek like-minded runners, or hard-workers so that you could bond over those topics. Especially runners!! Then you guys would have so much to talk about! I ski, and instantly if anyone else does- bang, there goes the conversation...into high excitement mode on both sides.
posted by bquarters at 1:23 PM on July 8, 2011
Also, you are looking for friends and partners. Maybe other people are happy in those or different ways. You are competitive and that's awesome. But not everyone is...so when they make comments they might not really be comparing their lives to yours as much as you think (in a negative way). So just be yourself...and don't overthink their responses in that way.
And like someone else said, it would definitely be good to seek like-minded runners, or hard-workers so that you could bond over those topics. Especially runners!! Then you guys would have so much to talk about! I ski, and instantly if anyone else does- bang, there goes the conversation...into high excitement mode on both sides.
posted by bquarters at 1:23 PM on July 8, 2011
Hmm, some of this may be that people are just flailing around trying to come up with a response to keep the conversation going, and they say whatever dumb thing just popped into their head because they can't come up with anything intelligent. If you're talking to people who don't run marathons or do any kind of serious sports, they probably have no idea how to keep chatting about it because it's outside their normal range of interests and experiences.
I used to get this a lot because most people have very little idea what a biochemist does, and my hobbies were not very popular at the time. So I learned to keep it generic: I'm a scientist and I work in the biotech industry. That gives people enough for their mental Rolodex and if they follow up with further questions I talk about what the company does, not my personal research project. This is usually enough to trigger a story about their nephew going to nursing school or something, and they're happily off and yakking. It's uncommon that anybody asks me about hobbies but if it happens, I only mention the stuff that's familiar to most people - cooking, maybe sewing. I keep the more esoteric pursuits to myself unless I get the idea that this person might actually be interested in Japanese embroidery or machine knitting, etc.
So my suggestion to you is to keep it as short, generic and lowest-common-denominator as possible. You're not a marathoner, you like to run. You don't design surgical procedures, you're a scientist. People just want a few factoids to populate their "acquaintances database" so you give them a soundbite, not long-form autobiography. If they show any real interest you can always go into more detail, but most of the time they won't - especially if you encourage them to talk about themselves instead ;-)
posted by Quietgal at 2:34 PM on July 8, 2011
I used to get this a lot because most people have very little idea what a biochemist does, and my hobbies were not very popular at the time. So I learned to keep it generic: I'm a scientist and I work in the biotech industry. That gives people enough for their mental Rolodex and if they follow up with further questions I talk about what the company does, not my personal research project. This is usually enough to trigger a story about their nephew going to nursing school or something, and they're happily off and yakking. It's uncommon that anybody asks me about hobbies but if it happens, I only mention the stuff that's familiar to most people - cooking, maybe sewing. I keep the more esoteric pursuits to myself unless I get the idea that this person might actually be interested in Japanese embroidery or machine knitting, etc.
So my suggestion to you is to keep it as short, generic and lowest-common-denominator as possible. You're not a marathoner, you like to run. You don't design surgical procedures, you're a scientist. People just want a few factoids to populate their "acquaintances database" so you give them a soundbite, not long-form autobiography. If they show any real interest you can always go into more detail, but most of the time they won't - especially if you encourage them to talk about themselves instead ;-)
posted by Quietgal at 2:34 PM on July 8, 2011
Best answer: I was reading something recently that advised, even if you speak another language really well, to be modest about it and say you speak "a little."
Perhaps you could use the same principle here, rather than get into specifics just say "I run a little, what about you?" and be self deprecating. It's much more impressive to downplay your accomplishments.
Telling the number of marathons you've run makes you sound like a real tool, even if it's in response to a question. The most impressive people are usually the least forthcoming about what they do, I've found.
With regard to work, perhaps be vague ... "I'm involved in the medical device field, it's not something that really makes for great party conversation."
Downplay.
posted by jayder at 5:41 PM on July 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
Perhaps you could use the same principle here, rather than get into specifics just say "I run a little, what about you?" and be self deprecating. It's much more impressive to downplay your accomplishments.
Telling the number of marathons you've run makes you sound like a real tool, even if it's in response to a question. The most impressive people are usually the least forthcoming about what they do, I've found.
With regard to work, perhaps be vague ... "I'm involved in the medical device field, it's not something that really makes for great party conversation."
Downplay.
posted by jayder at 5:41 PM on July 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
The portions of the conversation you describe might raise caution flags for me about pursuing a friendship, or not, depending on the rest of the conversation. But this comment gives you the "detriment of the doubt," with apologies in advance.
Like xo said above, it sounds like achievement is what you value. My friends and I bond from the post-achievement, looking-for-more-from-life sides of ourselves. So, I'd wonder if you and I would share the same interests.
To make it worse, I have a prejudice against intense physical hobbies. They strike me as addictions, some fairly healthy (seeking euphoria, seeking endorphins), some more masochistic and injury-inducing. When I was addicted to running, so many things in my day had to be subjugated to the need to get in a run. Also, after too much time in a ski / climbing town. I have no interest in routes, gear, the season, injuries, training, and many similar things. You say these are hobbies where you're competitive against others? Competitiveness strikes me as a combination of insecurity and superiority, neither of which I enjoy in large doses.
I'm interested in the emotional challenges people have and how they work through them, and in being rooted in a place and a community. Examples: I'm interested in a friend's struggle to cope with her parent's aging and physical challenges. I'm interested in how I can become a better listener and better support for her (it's a challenge). So, when I hear about your marathons, I imagine you being gone many weekends traveling all over and learning about Power Bar carb:protein ratios just to complete a bunch of races and it all sounds kind of boring and pointless to me, and like you'd always be gone. It's not that I'm against you doing that, but if it takes up 85% of your time and thought, there might not be much time for the things we have in common.
Together, those two things -- achievement orientation and competitive physical hobbies -- would raise questions about whether I'd find our conversations interesting (vs. shallow and boring), and whether you seemed emotionally unaware or high-strung. Would you act upset if you felt you screwed up? Do you have to be the best in everything you do, and if so, why, what are you still trying to prove? Or is there something you're escaping? And ... I keep coming back to this, but do you care about anything that I care about, since those two values (achievement and physical capability) are fairly low on my list of values these days and just plain boring to me.
But the dealbreaker would not be that you do these things, but that we couldn't bond about other things. I would be interested if filtered through a lens of personal development or emotion (like Bardolph's examples or yours: "how they make me feel or their difficulties or the fact that it's much more of a lifestyle for me than an interest"). If you were self-aware, and we could discuss the competitiveness on a meta-level (say, race anxiety), that'd be interesting.
Oh yeah, see, your follow-up again shows how important it is to you to be capable: "I'm typically the type of person where if I can't do something, I study it and learn about it so I can fix it." I'm the type of person where I've realized that there are a zillion things that I'll never be able to do well, so I pick a few that matter to me, don't stress about dabbling in the rest, and focus most of my time on just having friends and enjoying things. That said, I also don't consider myself NOT the kind of person who would learn how to do something I wanted to be able to do and who would just wallow in my inabilities. (Who are those people? Would you consider me one just because I care about X and not Y, or because I acknowledge and accept that there are many things I can't do?)
Maybe people say you make them feel bad about themselves because they suspect that you would judge yourself if you were them, but they don't actually judge themselves, like bquarters said. Or again -- maybe I'm totally wrong. I don't think the conversation you describe would turn me off; it would just make me begin asking these questions. Hope you figure this all out. Wow, this got long -- sorry about that.
posted by salvia at 1:02 AM on July 9, 2011 [6 favorites]
Like xo said above, it sounds like achievement is what you value. My friends and I bond from the post-achievement, looking-for-more-from-life sides of ourselves. So, I'd wonder if you and I would share the same interests.
To make it worse, I have a prejudice against intense physical hobbies. They strike me as addictions, some fairly healthy (seeking euphoria, seeking endorphins), some more masochistic and injury-inducing. When I was addicted to running, so many things in my day had to be subjugated to the need to get in a run. Also, after too much time in a ski / climbing town. I have no interest in routes, gear, the season, injuries, training, and many similar things. You say these are hobbies where you're competitive against others? Competitiveness strikes me as a combination of insecurity and superiority, neither of which I enjoy in large doses.
I'm interested in the emotional challenges people have and how they work through them, and in being rooted in a place and a community. Examples: I'm interested in a friend's struggle to cope with her parent's aging and physical challenges. I'm interested in how I can become a better listener and better support for her (it's a challenge). So, when I hear about your marathons, I imagine you being gone many weekends traveling all over and learning about Power Bar carb:protein ratios just to complete a bunch of races and it all sounds kind of boring and pointless to me, and like you'd always be gone. It's not that I'm against you doing that, but if it takes up 85% of your time and thought, there might not be much time for the things we have in common.
Together, those two things -- achievement orientation and competitive physical hobbies -- would raise questions about whether I'd find our conversations interesting (vs. shallow and boring), and whether you seemed emotionally unaware or high-strung. Would you act upset if you felt you screwed up? Do you have to be the best in everything you do, and if so, why, what are you still trying to prove? Or is there something you're escaping? And ... I keep coming back to this, but do you care about anything that I care about, since those two values (achievement and physical capability) are fairly low on my list of values these days and just plain boring to me.
But the dealbreaker would not be that you do these things, but that we couldn't bond about other things. I would be interested if filtered through a lens of personal development or emotion (like Bardolph's examples or yours: "how they make me feel or their difficulties or the fact that it's much more of a lifestyle for me than an interest"). If you were self-aware, and we could discuss the competitiveness on a meta-level (say, race anxiety), that'd be interesting.
Oh yeah, see, your follow-up again shows how important it is to you to be capable: "I'm typically the type of person where if I can't do something, I study it and learn about it so I can fix it." I'm the type of person where I've realized that there are a zillion things that I'll never be able to do well, so I pick a few that matter to me, don't stress about dabbling in the rest, and focus most of my time on just having friends and enjoying things. That said, I also don't consider myself NOT the kind of person who would learn how to do something I wanted to be able to do and who would just wallow in my inabilities. (Who are those people? Would you consider me one just because I care about X and not Y, or because I acknowledge and accept that there are many things I can't do?)
Maybe people say you make them feel bad about themselves because they suspect that you would judge yourself if you were them, but they don't actually judge themselves, like bquarters said. Or again -- maybe I'm totally wrong. I don't think the conversation you describe would turn me off; it would just make me begin asking these questions. Hope you figure this all out. Wow, this got long -- sorry about that.
posted by salvia at 1:02 AM on July 9, 2011 [6 favorites]
Salvia has it for me. Achievement is fab, but the vaguest hint of competitiveness puts me right off. I'm a collaborator by nature. Maybe you just need to find ways of letting people in on your stuff, otherwise they may feel like you want an audience rather than a friend/partner.
I suppose the thing to do is look for commonalities. If you can't find any during cocktail chit-chat with randoms, don't sweat it, just seek out other high achievers - possibly people who've excelled in fields other than your own - and go from there.
posted by freya_lamb at 2:36 AM on July 9, 2011
I suppose the thing to do is look for commonalities. If you can't find any during cocktail chit-chat with randoms, don't sweat it, just seek out other high achievers - possibly people who've excelled in fields other than your own - and go from there.
posted by freya_lamb at 2:36 AM on July 9, 2011
Reading more of this thread, I'm leaning more heavily in favor of "find a social circle of people who are more like you." Are you living in an area where being a scientist is highly unusual and having very athletic hobbies is considered rare and eccentric? You might want to see if you can better place yourself in a situation where, when you mention doing marathons,you're more likely to be surrounded by people who are triathletes or accomplished chefs. I'm sure if you knew more doctors or scientists in your social circle, they would be more interested than confused by your work in designing experimental surgeries.
That said, when it comes to general social skills, there's a quote from Winston Churchill's mother, Jennie Jerome, that comes to mind that may be relevant here:
"When I left the dining room after sitting next to Gladstone, I thought he was the cleverest man in England. But when I sat next to Disraeli I left feeling that I was the cleverest woman."
posted by deanc at 3:37 PM on July 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
That said, when it comes to general social skills, there's a quote from Winston Churchill's mother, Jennie Jerome, that comes to mind that may be relevant here:
"When I left the dining room after sitting next to Gladstone, I thought he was the cleverest man in England. But when I sat next to Disraeli I left feeling that I was the cleverest woman."
posted by deanc at 3:37 PM on July 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I'm concerned that you're going to start focusing on your weaknesses and going on about your flaws. The world does not need any more women going about pretending that they're feebler than they are. Don't brag, ask other people about themselves, and do recognize that you can do ABC because of XYZ, but please don't put yourself down or pretend to be less than you are.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:13 AM on July 10, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:13 AM on July 10, 2011 [2 favorites]
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Here's an example from last night. I met a new person and after asking them a little about themselves they asked me what I like to do for fun. I answered that I'm an avid runner. Then I asked them what THEY like to do for fun.
Then they asked me about my running and I elaborated to say that I'm an avid marathon runner. Then they asked me how many I've done, and I told them that I'm doing my 11th marathon this coming weekend and that my goal for this year is to do 7 marathons (3 are already done, #4 is this weekend and then 3 more in the fall) and my first half ironman.When people ask you exploratory questions, answer them and then reflect the question back to them.
If the conversation lingers on what you're doing, try to present it in a less self-aggrandizing way.
This:
I work a very demanding job and save a lot of lives through experimental surgeries that I assist in designing.
Would put me off, because it sounds like you're bragging about your awesomeness, not telling me about your job. But if you just said that you design experimental surgeries, I would find that fascinating. How do you design a surgery? What kind of experimental surgeries?
Same thing with your success at running. If you focus on the thing you're doing, and not qualifying how good you are at it, people will be more responsive. Even if they say, "Wow, that makes me feel lazy," you can still deflect that with, "Sometimes it's really hard, but I enjoy it."
posted by headspace at 10:13 AM on July 8, 2011 [8 favorites]