Should I marry my girlfriend or not? Its great but aint perfect.
June 15, 2011 6:36 PM Subscribe
My girlfriend and me have been living together for almost two years now. I am thinking about proposing to her in a few months but have a lot of small fears and dilemmas.
Hello wonderful mefites!
So my girlfriend (let's call her "Shelly") and I, have met almost two years ago and are inseparable since. We've been living together for almost two years now.
Shelly is wonderful; Outgoing, supportive, very kind, generous, beautiful, smart independent and athletic. I love her! We had very few major arguments after the initial first few months. I think she might be the girl for me.
I am starting to seriously consider the prospects of marrying her, but have a few reservations I wanted to share and get some needed feedback and guidance.
1. Being unfaithful. Both my grandpa, and my dad cheated on their spouses which was destructive and very painful. My folks got divorced when I was 14 because of it and I am in very poor relations with my father since. The thing is, during the last few years I had a mini transformation occur to me. I am much more athletic, charming and more confident as a man. Less depression prone and anxiety ridden. Women been taking notice, and I feel I have much more success interacting with them. A lot of flirtation and attention on their behalf that I am not used to.
Sometimes after a random interaction like that, I am strucken with desire and lust and think about it nonstop for a day or two. It does pass.
I have never cheated on Shelly or on any other girl before, but have doubts and fears that I could succumb to that in the far future.
I know that isolated sex is shallow and pretty meaningless. I feel that its not really about "Shelly". I'll feel the same with any other girl.
It's not just the sex thing, also I'm sure its a big part of it. Its an ego booster, and a somewhat primal strange "conquering" urge.
Is there a cheating gene that runs in our family? How do I work on that? I cannot see myself in an open relationship.
2.Sex. "Shelly" is quite prudent, Having raised in a somewhat conservative and religious environment. I am very confident in bed, playful and always exploring.
She has a conservative style about sex. Some examples will be:
A. Never touches herself. She is not able to masturbate. I feel she has some negative fixation related to her private areas.
B. Does not enjoy oral sex. I am eager as a beaver and always try to give which she lets me for a few minutes before dragging me up. She is not able to climax from oral. She doesn't like giving head, and in fact never in our two years did it to completion.
C. No dirty talking, No anal, No gentle role playing. It's mostly making out and missionary.
There is plenty of romance and a lot of little sweet gestures. The romance and caring is superb, its the physical side that I feel is a bit lacking.
I feel I've been very supportive in this. I always try not to be pushy. Always compliment her body and looks. Got her a sex positive book ("The guide to getting it on"). She is able to climax with me, about a third of the times. I do realize that all people are different and sex drives and styles are on a broad spectrum. I also realize that she is quite young and might mature as the time goes on. I know that many folks will say that this is a deal breaker (Dan Savage?!) but I feel that also awesome sex is awesome to have its better to have an awesome partner with mediocre sex than the other way around. I feel I could please myself if and when the need arises. Any personal anecdotes where you/you're partner greatly change sex preferences?
3.Parents. I come from a very small lower-middle class broken family. Although I love my parents, at this stage I don't really let them push me around and am able to hold my opinions and wants with confidence. I care less and less about their opinions about my life style and aspirations.
"Shelly" comes from an upper class family with a rich and documents history and plenty of relatives. Her folks tend to be judgmental and overpowering. She ca get really emotional and anxious after some bad wording from her folks. That's her family and she is tells me she is OK with that. However, if and when we are married I want to be absolutely clear that this kind of communication style will not fly in my presence. If her parents spout some negative judgment it will be promptly reflected to them even at the price of even greater drama. I will not tolerate verbal abuse towards myself and my wife. Did any of you ever been in a situation like that, where your spouse is ok with some negativity, judgment and domineering from her family, saying its her family and she's alright with that and also requiring you to be submissive and passive to it? What did you do? How did it work out? Type A or not, "Thinking about her better benefit" or not, Next time they will make her cry I will retaliate.
After everything is said and done, I love her dearly. We have the best and longest relationship we both ever had, we make each other very happy, we make each other grow in so many areas and fields, allot of our hobbies and interests align. She is a sweet heart ;)
I apologize for any poor grammar, been typing ferociously before going to work,
anonymous because "Shelly" is also a member.
I realize that alot of those issues are quite irrational and immature. I can admit that, but still feel that way.
I would greatly appreciate any feedback and words of advice, personal anecdotes about any of the issues.
Thanks!
Hello wonderful mefites!
So my girlfriend (let's call her "Shelly") and I, have met almost two years ago and are inseparable since. We've been living together for almost two years now.
Shelly is wonderful; Outgoing, supportive, very kind, generous, beautiful, smart independent and athletic. I love her! We had very few major arguments after the initial first few months. I think she might be the girl for me.
I am starting to seriously consider the prospects of marrying her, but have a few reservations I wanted to share and get some needed feedback and guidance.
1. Being unfaithful. Both my grandpa, and my dad cheated on their spouses which was destructive and very painful. My folks got divorced when I was 14 because of it and I am in very poor relations with my father since. The thing is, during the last few years I had a mini transformation occur to me. I am much more athletic, charming and more confident as a man. Less depression prone and anxiety ridden. Women been taking notice, and I feel I have much more success interacting with them. A lot of flirtation and attention on their behalf that I am not used to.
Sometimes after a random interaction like that, I am strucken with desire and lust and think about it nonstop for a day or two. It does pass.
I have never cheated on Shelly or on any other girl before, but have doubts and fears that I could succumb to that in the far future.
I know that isolated sex is shallow and pretty meaningless. I feel that its not really about "Shelly". I'll feel the same with any other girl.
It's not just the sex thing, also I'm sure its a big part of it. Its an ego booster, and a somewhat primal strange "conquering" urge.
Is there a cheating gene that runs in our family? How do I work on that? I cannot see myself in an open relationship.
2.Sex. "Shelly" is quite prudent, Having raised in a somewhat conservative and religious environment. I am very confident in bed, playful and always exploring.
She has a conservative style about sex. Some examples will be:
A. Never touches herself. She is not able to masturbate. I feel she has some negative fixation related to her private areas.
B. Does not enjoy oral sex. I am eager as a beaver and always try to give which she lets me for a few minutes before dragging me up. She is not able to climax from oral. She doesn't like giving head, and in fact never in our two years did it to completion.
C. No dirty talking, No anal, No gentle role playing. It's mostly making out and missionary.
There is plenty of romance and a lot of little sweet gestures. The romance and caring is superb, its the physical side that I feel is a bit lacking.
I feel I've been very supportive in this. I always try not to be pushy. Always compliment her body and looks. Got her a sex positive book ("The guide to getting it on"). She is able to climax with me, about a third of the times. I do realize that all people are different and sex drives and styles are on a broad spectrum. I also realize that she is quite young and might mature as the time goes on. I know that many folks will say that this is a deal breaker (Dan Savage?!) but I feel that also awesome sex is awesome to have its better to have an awesome partner with mediocre sex than the other way around. I feel I could please myself if and when the need arises. Any personal anecdotes where you/you're partner greatly change sex preferences?
3.Parents. I come from a very small lower-middle class broken family. Although I love my parents, at this stage I don't really let them push me around and am able to hold my opinions and wants with confidence. I care less and less about their opinions about my life style and aspirations.
"Shelly" comes from an upper class family with a rich and documents history and plenty of relatives. Her folks tend to be judgmental and overpowering. She ca get really emotional and anxious after some bad wording from her folks. That's her family and she is tells me she is OK with that. However, if and when we are married I want to be absolutely clear that this kind of communication style will not fly in my presence. If her parents spout some negative judgment it will be promptly reflected to them even at the price of even greater drama. I will not tolerate verbal abuse towards myself and my wife. Did any of you ever been in a situation like that, where your spouse is ok with some negativity, judgment and domineering from her family, saying its her family and she's alright with that and also requiring you to be submissive and passive to it? What did you do? How did it work out? Type A or not, "Thinking about her better benefit" or not, Next time they will make her cry I will retaliate.
After everything is said and done, I love her dearly. We have the best and longest relationship we both ever had, we make each other very happy, we make each other grow in so many areas and fields, allot of our hobbies and interests align. She is a sweet heart ;)
I apologize for any poor grammar, been typing ferociously before going to work,
anonymous because "Shelly" is also a member.
I realize that alot of those issues are quite irrational and immature. I can admit that, but still feel that way.
I would greatly appreciate any feedback and words of advice, personal anecdotes about any of the issues.
Thanks!
This may just been the speed of the question and the one-sided nature of you being the asker, but you seem very concerned with what you want and not very concerned with what Shelley wants.
And I fail to see how you informing her how she will, in the future, interact with her family at your direction and according to your rules is any less controlling than whatever her family is doing. That really raises a red flag for me ... for Shelley. Poor thing, if she's coming from a controlling family right into a controlling marriage.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:10 PM on June 15, 2011 [30 favorites]
And I fail to see how you informing her how she will, in the future, interact with her family at your direction and according to your rules is any less controlling than whatever her family is doing. That really raises a red flag for me ... for Shelley. Poor thing, if she's coming from a controlling family right into a controlling marriage.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:10 PM on June 15, 2011 [30 favorites]
It's nice that you're in better shape physically and that the that ladies are checking you out. But, chances are you're not always gonna be fly. Everyone gets older, and with few exceptions, less conventionally attractive. I have no idea whether you and your lady should get married, but I do think that trading in a happy relationship because you've had a transformation and are getting shiny new offers is usually a bad idea. Just because someone sees you on the street and thinks you're foxy doesn't mean that person is interested in you at all as a person. Not all that glitters is gold, as they say.
posted by troublewithwolves at 7:15 PM on June 15, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by troublewithwolves at 7:15 PM on June 15, 2011 [5 favorites]
I think you should give it some time and give the both of you some time to grow and mature. Sometimes stuff like this works itself out in time, sometimes it doesn't. None of them sound like deal breakers to me, given that you're both in your first long-term relationship.
I'm kind of in a situation like this one family-wise, where my family sometimes gets all up in my grill. My BF is great about it though. Instead of making more trouble for me by being hostile to them, he protects me by deflecting stuff away from me when he can and listening and being there for me when he can't. (For example he intervened when I got into a fight with my brother and it was a huge help. But he was polite about it, and asked me first.)
If you get in between her and her family, and it gets to the point where they hate you and you hate them and she feels like she has to choose, she isn't necessarily going to choose you, just based on your own behavior.
The sex stuff can probably be worked out. This kind of thing really takes time and patience for girls in her situation but it's not impossible.
posted by bleep at 7:33 PM on June 15, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'm kind of in a situation like this one family-wise, where my family sometimes gets all up in my grill. My BF is great about it though. Instead of making more trouble for me by being hostile to them, he protects me by deflecting stuff away from me when he can and listening and being there for me when he can't. (For example he intervened when I got into a fight with my brother and it was a huge help. But he was polite about it, and asked me first.)
If you get in between her and her family, and it gets to the point where they hate you and you hate them and she feels like she has to choose, she isn't necessarily going to choose you, just based on your own behavior.
The sex stuff can probably be worked out. This kind of thing really takes time and patience for girls in her situation but it's not impossible.
posted by bleep at 7:33 PM on June 15, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think what I was trying to say was that you can be firm without being hostile in your expectations of acceptable behavior. This is to protect your relationship with her. Do not go in thinking that increasing the drama is an acceptable loss because it won't make her feel good, and that should be your goal.
posted by bleep at 7:40 PM on June 15, 2011
posted by bleep at 7:40 PM on June 15, 2011
I don't know if you should marry her or not, but I wanted to address the cheating thing. I was cheated on by an ex, and boy howdy is it the most painful experience.
I have never cheated on Shelly or on any other girl before, but have doubts and fears that I could succumb to that in the far future.
One way you can prevent this is by owning up to your agency in this. You don't "succumb to it" - you choose it. Or choose not to. It's not genetic and it's not inevitable. There will always be temptation whether you're young and hot or old and saggy. If the flirtation makes you crazy for a day or two afterwards, stop flirting. Don't make it more difficult for yourself.
posted by desjardins at 7:46 PM on June 15, 2011 [42 favorites]
I have never cheated on Shelly or on any other girl before, but have doubts and fears that I could succumb to that in the far future.
One way you can prevent this is by owning up to your agency in this. You don't "succumb to it" - you choose it. Or choose not to. It's not genetic and it's not inevitable. There will always be temptation whether you're young and hot or old and saggy. If the flirtation makes you crazy for a day or two afterwards, stop flirting. Don't make it more difficult for yourself.
posted by desjardins at 7:46 PM on June 15, 2011 [42 favorites]
Items 1 & 2 could go either way. It sounds like you both have some maturing to do. This may not be a good match; it may be a great match. I can only say that I would hope that my potential spouse would be talking to ME about these concerns--not mefi.
Item 3, I would be careful. I can say stuff about my family (they're my family), but no one else can. If my partner was attacking my family (no matter how reasonable his defense of me sounded per his rationalization), I would not be happy. I can't say it strongly enough, stay out of that stuff. You are an interloper in that relationship.
posted by Kronur at 7:46 PM on June 15, 2011
Item 3, I would be careful. I can say stuff about my family (they're my family), but no one else can. If my partner was attacking my family (no matter how reasonable his defense of me sounded per his rationalization), I would not be happy. I can't say it strongly enough, stay out of that stuff. You are an interloper in that relationship.
posted by Kronur at 7:46 PM on June 15, 2011
I'm single, and travel a lot, and have a few friends around the place with whom I have a casual kind of relationship with. I also have some friends in long term relationships who hint at the fact that they're jealous because I'm living this alledged high life of non-relationship sex.
You know what? I'd trade in a second. I enjoy my life, and I care about these casual sex friends, and what I would like more than anything is to actually be in a place where I could start something long term them. The people who are jealous are the people I'm jealous of, because they get to have that sex with the person they love, and then they get to live with them! And hang out in the evening! And brush their teeth together while they garble out comments on things they saw that day! And all those utterly mundane things that you only get in a relationship!
It sounds like you need to speak to your girlfriend about your sex life, and ways to change so it's pleasurable for you both. I think you need to speak to her about her family, and find a way to be supportive of her without damaging her relationships with them. As for the flirtations with strangers, you need to realise that it's an empty goal, and that the titillation you feel at being admired is nowhere near as good as the knowledge that you get to live with someone you love.
posted by twirlypen at 8:08 PM on June 15, 2011 [5 favorites]
You know what? I'd trade in a second. I enjoy my life, and I care about these casual sex friends, and what I would like more than anything is to actually be in a place where I could start something long term them. The people who are jealous are the people I'm jealous of, because they get to have that sex with the person they love, and then they get to live with them! And hang out in the evening! And brush their teeth together while they garble out comments on things they saw that day! And all those utterly mundane things that you only get in a relationship!
It sounds like you need to speak to your girlfriend about your sex life, and ways to change so it's pleasurable for you both. I think you need to speak to her about her family, and find a way to be supportive of her without damaging her relationships with them. As for the flirtations with strangers, you need to realise that it's an empty goal, and that the titillation you feel at being admired is nowhere near as good as the knowledge that you get to live with someone you love.
posted by twirlypen at 8:08 PM on June 15, 2011 [5 favorites]
Think about ten years from now. Will the situation still be "an awesome partner with mediocre sex?" Or will it be an awesome partner who stops sex completely because it was never important to that person and now they're married, they can stop trying? Love doesn't solve everything.
posted by who squared at 8:16 PM on June 15, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by who squared at 8:16 PM on June 15, 2011 [3 favorites]
These kinds of questions would be perfect to discuss in a few premarital (or pre-premarital) counseling sessions with a counselor or religious leader of your choice, especially numbers 2 and 3 (but also number 1; you might feel better if you could find a way to discuss your crushes). Both of these seem like very valid concerns. You could find out whether she is open to accepting her sensual side more over time (I think most people do), and you could particularly express you concern at the dynamics in her relationship with her parents and your unwillingness to be treated in the ways that she allows herself to be.
posted by salvia at 8:20 PM on June 15, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by salvia at 8:20 PM on June 15, 2011 [1 favorite]
Can you live with the sex as it is now for the rest of your life? Because odds are you won't be having MORE sex or more creative sex than you are as non-marrieds. Are you truly okay with no oral or anal for your entire life? Because THAT can be a reason that leads to cheating: not being okay with not getting what you want from the only person you are allowed to get it from.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:22 PM on June 15, 2011 [10 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:22 PM on June 15, 2011 [10 favorites]
It seems to me you need to figure out whether these issues will be deal breakers if nothing changes. If sex with Shelley is exactly as it is now (or less frequent but otherwise the same) for the rest of your life, can you live with that?
If her family continues to behave the way they do now, but possibly with it leading to more arguments between the two of you because of your decision to stand up to them, can you put up with that?
If you continue to have really strong urges to sleep with other women, can you continue to not act on them?
If you propose to Shelley, I think you basically need to be saying that you want to live the rest of your life with her under the assumption that the points above might not change.
Because statistically, they aren't likely to.
If you aren't okay with that, then wait a while, see what happens.
posted by lollusc at 9:05 PM on June 15, 2011 [1 favorite]
If her family continues to behave the way they do now, but possibly with it leading to more arguments between the two of you because of your decision to stand up to them, can you put up with that?
If you continue to have really strong urges to sleep with other women, can you continue to not act on them?
If you propose to Shelley, I think you basically need to be saying that you want to live the rest of your life with her under the assumption that the points above might not change.
Because statistically, they aren't likely to.
If you aren't okay with that, then wait a while, see what happens.
posted by lollusc at 9:05 PM on June 15, 2011 [1 favorite]
dude if her family doesn't love you they are going to consciously and subconsciously work to tear the two of you apart. The biggest mistake most people make going into marriage is telling themselves: "hey I'm marrying her, not her family."
posted by any major dude at 9:32 PM on June 15, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by any major dude at 9:32 PM on June 15, 2011 [2 favorites]
- There is no cheating gene. Don't cheat. EVER. (unless you really really want to know the consequences and feel comfortable blowing apart whatever relationship you have with a significant other now or in the future.)
- A big big reason I divorced my first husband is because his mom/family was domineering and it effected me terribly. And yes, they had money. I'm happily married now, and although Mr. Jbenben also comes from a privileged family, he moved half way around the world from them, there is mutual respect between him and his family, and he always puts me/us first in his concerns. My ex? Not so much. Deep deep down, he always put his family before me, so eventually I bounced.
That's my two cents.
posted by jbenben at 9:37 PM on June 15, 2011 [2 favorites]
- A big big reason I divorced my first husband is because his mom/family was domineering and it effected me terribly. And yes, they had money. I'm happily married now, and although Mr. Jbenben also comes from a privileged family, he moved half way around the world from them, there is mutual respect between him and his family, and he always puts me/us first in his concerns. My ex? Not so much. Deep deep down, he always put his family before me, so eventually I bounced.
That's my two cents.
posted by jbenben at 9:37 PM on June 15, 2011 [2 favorites]
Not really enough information here about what's good, IMO. You've listed three reasons you shouldn't get married, and based on this evidence alone I'd have to say you shouldn't. I assume there's lots of good stuff going on there too, but from what you've told us I'd lean more towards "DTMFA" than "get married." My impression is that you hope proposing will fix these issues. I've been there, sort of (not proposing, but, taking steps to make a relationship more serious in hopes it'd help us soldier through major problems). It doesn't work. You have to fix this stuff first.
posted by dixiecupdrinking at 9:38 PM on June 15, 2011
posted by dixiecupdrinking at 9:38 PM on June 15, 2011
Marriage is not necessarily the natural next step in a fairly stable romantic relationship. From what you've told us here, you're still uncertain about a lot of things - being faithful to Shelly, your sexual compatibility, and relations with her family - so it sounds to me that you have a ways to go before you can even contemplate proposing.
The key to a great long-lasting relationship, with everyone, and not just your partner, is acceptance, acceptance and more acceptance. You'll have to accept Shelly and her hangups and her domineering family if you marry her. "Standing up" aggressively to her family on her behalf, at the risk of creating even more drama, by the way, is honestly quite childish. I'm not saying that you should be a doormat, but the family did play a part in the development of your wonderful girlfriend and they're hers to deal with. It's hard to see a loved one be on the receiving end of verbal abuse, but if you retaliate against her family, you could also make her feel worse, not better if she's put in a situation where she feels she has to choose between her family and partner. Kindness goes a long way, and if not, there's always distance.
posted by peripathetic at 9:41 PM on June 15, 2011 [4 favorites]
The key to a great long-lasting relationship, with everyone, and not just your partner, is acceptance, acceptance and more acceptance. You'll have to accept Shelly and her hangups and her domineering family if you marry her. "Standing up" aggressively to her family on her behalf, at the risk of creating even more drama, by the way, is honestly quite childish. I'm not saying that you should be a doormat, but the family did play a part in the development of your wonderful girlfriend and they're hers to deal with. It's hard to see a loved one be on the receiving end of verbal abuse, but if you retaliate against her family, you could also make her feel worse, not better if she's put in a situation where she feels she has to choose between her family and partner. Kindness goes a long way, and if not, there's always distance.
posted by peripathetic at 9:41 PM on June 15, 2011 [4 favorites]
Oh. Jennfullmoon makes a good point.
The trend is folks usually have less sex after marriage. Not always, but that seems to be the way of it.
YMMV.
posted by jbenben at 9:41 PM on June 15, 2011
The trend is folks usually have less sex after marriage. Not always, but that seems to be the way of it.
YMMV.
posted by jbenben at 9:41 PM on June 15, 2011
There is a reason that people say that cheating "just happened". There are a lot of tiny innocuous steps that can take you from normal boring life to the situation where you are sitting on a hotel bed very close to someone, and there is all kinds of smouldering going on, and their toe is touching your leg, and you are both horny, and it would take far too much self control to leave at this point.
The trick is not to go up to see the etchings, not to go for dinner with the flirt object, not to stop and talk for half an hour when you bump into them in the bar; in short, the time when you make the decision not to cheat is far earlier than you think it is. Once you've realised that mutual flirting is happening, no more "just the two of you" anything, no matter how platonic and how pleasant it sounds.
Presto, no cheating.
posted by emilyw at 1:35 AM on June 16, 2011 [7 favorites]
The trick is not to go up to see the etchings, not to go for dinner with the flirt object, not to stop and talk for half an hour when you bump into them in the bar; in short, the time when you make the decision not to cheat is far earlier than you think it is. Once you've realised that mutual flirting is happening, no more "just the two of you" anything, no matter how platonic and how pleasant it sounds.
Presto, no cheating.
posted by emilyw at 1:35 AM on June 16, 2011 [7 favorites]
In some ways this is a bit similar to my relationship with my now-husband, before we were married, especially the family issues. The main thing that is screaming at me from your post is:
TALK TO HER.
Do you guys discuss these things? Do you talk about whether she is happy with your sex life? About how things could be better with her parents? Do you tell her when you find yourself momentarily attracted to other women? All of these things are, or can be, taboo things, and it's possible that you might be scared to talk to her about it or scared of her reaction. But if you're going to be married (soon or even just one day in the future) the very best thing you can do is figure this stuff out *together*. At first talking about that stuff is intimidating but it can - and usually does - really really help.
Also, scope her out on whether or not she is ready for a proposal etc before you go too far with your thoughts about it. Does she want to be married? To you? Would she see things changing if you got married, or not? Highly recommend thinking through some pre-engagement questions before you go any further with it, if you're seriously considering the marriage thing. We started going through those questions on our 3rd anniversary and got engaged about 9 months later, which was a good amount of time for mental preparation for us both.
posted by magic curl at 2:38 AM on June 16, 2011 [2 favorites]
TALK TO HER.
Do you guys discuss these things? Do you talk about whether she is happy with your sex life? About how things could be better with her parents? Do you tell her when you find yourself momentarily attracted to other women? All of these things are, or can be, taboo things, and it's possible that you might be scared to talk to her about it or scared of her reaction. But if you're going to be married (soon or even just one day in the future) the very best thing you can do is figure this stuff out *together*. At first talking about that stuff is intimidating but it can - and usually does - really really help.
Also, scope her out on whether or not she is ready for a proposal etc before you go too far with your thoughts about it. Does she want to be married? To you? Would she see things changing if you got married, or not? Highly recommend thinking through some pre-engagement questions before you go any further with it, if you're seriously considering the marriage thing. We started going through those questions on our 3rd anniversary and got engaged about 9 months later, which was a good amount of time for mental preparation for us both.
posted by magic curl at 2:38 AM on June 16, 2011 [2 favorites]
You marry someone because you already have a perfect partnership. Marriage changes nothing, fixes nothing - it just says hell yeah, more of this please!
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 2:51 AM on June 16, 2011 [9 favorites]
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 2:51 AM on June 16, 2011 [9 favorites]
Is there a reason why you're considering marriage rather than simply carrying on as you are? Many couples live together without marrying and are happy. If you have doubts about this, keep on as you are until you don't.
posted by mippy at 3:15 AM on June 16, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by mippy at 3:15 AM on June 16, 2011 [2 favorites]
If you could be happy forever with the life you have now, then marry her. If you think you could be happy forever if these three things changed in favorable ways, then don't marry her yet and work on making those changes.
In which case, consult her and see what three things she might want to change about you, too.
posted by thinkingwoman at 4:15 AM on June 16, 2011
In which case, consult her and see what three things she might want to change about you, too.
posted by thinkingwoman at 4:15 AM on June 16, 2011
The main reason Shelly stays with you IS all the hang-ups she has and the way you've been supportive up to now: Change that and there's a chance Shelly will no longer stay with you, are you ready for that outcome?
posted by Wilder at 4:20 AM on June 16, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by Wilder at 4:20 AM on June 16, 2011 [3 favorites]
Regarding the family thing: if you start leaping to her defense when she doesn't want you to, you not only risk alienating her by not respecting her wishes, you also risk making her family dislike you so much that you just add one more thing to the list of things they can needle her about. Thus you make her problems with her parents worse, not better.
I would suggest not stooping to their level. Give her a positive example of how adult relationships are supposed to work by asking her what she wants, respecting her wishes and treating her as well as she deserves so she can hopefully build the confidence she needs to address problems with her family on her own. You can only strengthen your relationship this way.
posted by guessthis at 4:51 AM on June 16, 2011 [1 favorite]
I would suggest not stooping to their level. Give her a positive example of how adult relationships are supposed to work by asking her what she wants, respecting her wishes and treating her as well as she deserves so she can hopefully build the confidence she needs to address problems with her family on her own. You can only strengthen your relationship this way.
posted by guessthis at 4:51 AM on June 16, 2011 [1 favorite]
The main reason Shelly stays with you IS all the hang-ups she has and the way you've been supportive up to now: Change that and there's a chance Shelly will no longer stay with you, are you ready for that outcome?
I think this means "change how supportive you've been," not "change Shelly's hang-ups," because a relationship is all about being the best "you" (and Shelly being the best Shelley) you can be, changing both of your hang-ups along the way. Obviously, this is just my opinion, but I think that you two can work through all of this stuff together and become better people with a stronger relationship. Talk to each other. Communicate! It sounds like you've been doing a good job on that with the second question. What about with the first and the third?
If you open up to her about your fears about cheating, things will go one of two ways: she won't be able to handle it, or she'll help you get through it. Same with the family thing. This is delicate and could be very difficult, but the way that the communication and discussions about this stuff goes down will point your relationship in the right direction: you'll either break under the pressure or become a stronger union.
posted by k8lin at 6:02 AM on June 16, 2011
I think this means "change how supportive you've been," not "change Shelly's hang-ups," because a relationship is all about being the best "you" (and Shelly being the best Shelley) you can be, changing both of your hang-ups along the way. Obviously, this is just my opinion, but I think that you two can work through all of this stuff together and become better people with a stronger relationship. Talk to each other. Communicate! It sounds like you've been doing a good job on that with the second question. What about with the first and the third?
If you open up to her about your fears about cheating, things will go one of two ways: she won't be able to handle it, or she'll help you get through it. Same with the family thing. This is delicate and could be very difficult, but the way that the communication and discussions about this stuff goes down will point your relationship in the right direction: you'll either break under the pressure or become a stronger union.
posted by k8lin at 6:02 AM on June 16, 2011
Two years isn't much time. If this has been the longest relationship you've ever had, then you have not experienced the joy of seeing someone you love change into a new person before your eyes. It's a slow process, and you never can predict where that change will happen. But, if she loves you and wants to make you happy, I trust that she will change just as much as you will.
Don't worry about ten years from now. Will she like anal in ten years? OMG will she or won't she??? This is a ridiculous question. If anything, you can be comforted by the fact that women reach their sexual height around age 30. Things only go up from where you are.
Don't worry about anything. Say to yourself, do I want to be with her today? Do I want to marry her, today? If so, then propose. If you change your mind, break it off. Things are already the worst they are going to be, and you're putting up with it fine. You'll be just as good at putting up with it in ten years.
Family is difficult. I think that people need to grow out of parent-child relationships into peer-peer relationships. I think this is good for humans to do. I don't think that it's your job to stand up for her unless you talk to her about it and she says, yes please, this is what I want. you can't force people to live life like you think is good.
posted by rebent at 6:50 AM on June 16, 2011
Don't worry about ten years from now. Will she like anal in ten years? OMG will she or won't she??? This is a ridiculous question. If anything, you can be comforted by the fact that women reach their sexual height around age 30. Things only go up from where you are.
Don't worry about anything. Say to yourself, do I want to be with her today? Do I want to marry her, today? If so, then propose. If you change your mind, break it off. Things are already the worst they are going to be, and you're putting up with it fine. You'll be just as good at putting up with it in ten years.
Family is difficult. I think that people need to grow out of parent-child relationships into peer-peer relationships. I think this is good for humans to do. I don't think that it's your job to stand up for her unless you talk to her about it and she says, yes please, this is what I want. you can't force people to live life like you think is good.
posted by rebent at 6:50 AM on June 16, 2011
Two things struck me as I read your question.
1. You are very young.
2. This is about you and your idealized life, and has little to do with Shelly.
I have this nagging feeling that you have put Shelly up on some kind of pedastal She is a sweet heart ;) (what does that wink mean?) and if and when she deviates from this perfect role you've cast her in, you're going to be very unhappy.
Have you and she actually discussed marriage, or is this a Grand Gesture on your part?
posted by noxetlux at 7:16 AM on June 16, 2011 [5 favorites]
1. You are very young.
2. This is about you and your idealized life, and has little to do with Shelly.
I have this nagging feeling that you have put Shelly up on some kind of pedastal She is a sweet heart ;) (what does that wink mean?) and if and when she deviates from this perfect role you've cast her in, you're going to be very unhappy.
Have you and she actually discussed marriage, or is this a Grand Gesture on your part?
posted by noxetlux at 7:16 AM on June 16, 2011 [5 favorites]
Any personal anecdotes where you/you're partner greatly change sex preferences?
Since many others have tackled other parts of your question, I will just stick with this one, since you've asked.
When my wife and I first became sexual, it was pretty amazing. We did it three times a day (before work; after work; before bed), every day, for four years. It was a lot of quantity, but it was also all quality, as well.
We did it all over the house, all over the yard, in public with people probably watching, in cars; everywhere and anytime. We had at least ten "regular" positions. She would come two or three times every single time. We did oral sex, fantasies, I had her call me ex-boyfriends' names, etc.
Then one day, it all came to a screeching halt. There is an explanation for why it stopped, but that is irrelevant and we are working on it.
My point is that it really sucks now. I am still that person from before the sex stopped; she isn't. We may do it once a week now, tops. She still comes, but she doesn't really feel like it. I used to have oral sex with her every night, but now she won't let me anywhere near her regions. She used to wear provocative clothing around me and around my friends, showing her uncovered breasts when she would bend over, but now several days go by at a time without me seeing her topless.
So.....how important is this sex stuff to you? What if, ten years from now, she is still the prude you make her out to be?
In my own personal situation, the change has been difficult and I hope she goes back to how she was, but also sex isn't the most important thing in my life now, so it isn't a deal-breaker for me. What are the deal-breakers for you?
posted by TinWhistle at 8:01 AM on June 16, 2011 [3 favorites]
Since many others have tackled other parts of your question, I will just stick with this one, since you've asked.
When my wife and I first became sexual, it was pretty amazing. We did it three times a day (before work; after work; before bed), every day, for four years. It was a lot of quantity, but it was also all quality, as well.
We did it all over the house, all over the yard, in public with people probably watching, in cars; everywhere and anytime. We had at least ten "regular" positions. She would come two or three times every single time. We did oral sex, fantasies, I had her call me ex-boyfriends' names, etc.
Then one day, it all came to a screeching halt. There is an explanation for why it stopped, but that is irrelevant and we are working on it.
My point is that it really sucks now. I am still that person from before the sex stopped; she isn't. We may do it once a week now, tops. She still comes, but she doesn't really feel like it. I used to have oral sex with her every night, but now she won't let me anywhere near her regions. She used to wear provocative clothing around me and around my friends, showing her uncovered breasts when she would bend over, but now several days go by at a time without me seeing her topless.
So.....how important is this sex stuff to you? What if, ten years from now, she is still the prude you make her out to be?
In my own personal situation, the change has been difficult and I hope she goes back to how she was, but also sex isn't the most important thing in my life now, so it isn't a deal-breaker for me. What are the deal-breakers for you?
posted by TinWhistle at 8:01 AM on June 16, 2011 [3 favorites]
If you are not sexually satisfied now, and if it does not appear that this will change (not saying it won't -- it will depend on her and how well you communcate), then you absolutely won't be sexually happy in the future. If sexual satisfaction is important to you (which IMO it should be), then this is a recipe for disaster.
posted by eas98 at 8:03 AM on June 16, 2011
posted by eas98 at 8:03 AM on June 16, 2011
You're too young, even if you're in your '40s.
You think you might still have a desire to sow you wild oats. That's fine, and an important part of growing up -- so go do it. Don't involve this woman in it though, because that's not fair.
You'll know you're ready to settle down when these thoughts no longer occur to you. Lots of people use the food analogy: "Just because I've already ordered doesn't mean I can't look at the menu!" I disagree. Don't bother settling down until you've already eaten and are full.
I flirt, I get hit on, I socialize with women. But if my fantasy woman dropped her clothes in front of me and begged for sex, I'd laugh and politely decline, because I'm already full.
posted by coolguymichael at 10:25 AM on June 16, 2011 [1 favorite]
You think you might still have a desire to sow you wild oats. That's fine, and an important part of growing up -- so go do it. Don't involve this woman in it though, because that's not fair.
You'll know you're ready to settle down when these thoughts no longer occur to you. Lots of people use the food analogy: "Just because I've already ordered doesn't mean I can't look at the menu!" I disagree. Don't bother settling down until you've already eaten and are full.
I flirt, I get hit on, I socialize with women. But if my fantasy woman dropped her clothes in front of me and begged for sex, I'd laugh and politely decline, because I'm already full.
posted by coolguymichael at 10:25 AM on June 16, 2011 [1 favorite]
Ooh! You guys sound like me and my husband! Those small things are what screwed our relationship; I suggest counseling (for you) and sex therapy (for both of you) before you make this decision.
posted by Acer_saccharum at 11:49 AM on June 16, 2011
posted by Acer_saccharum at 11:49 AM on June 16, 2011
How old are both of you. IF you are both say 20 you are too young yet. If you are both say 26 or so then you are old enough.
Have either of you talked about marrage? My wife and I did not get married till we were together 5 years . We started to talk about getting married to each other at 3 years.
DO not propose to her unless she has actually talked about marrying you.
Keep in mind if she is religious the sex part might not get better till after you are married.
It sounds like to me you both have not talked about getting married yet.
Also my own personal rule was i will not marry somebody unless we have been together atleast 3 years first.
posted by majortom1981 at 11:59 AM on June 16, 2011
Have either of you talked about marrage? My wife and I did not get married till we were together 5 years . We started to talk about getting married to each other at 3 years.
DO not propose to her unless she has actually talked about marrying you.
Keep in mind if she is religious the sex part might not get better till after you are married.
It sounds like to me you both have not talked about getting married yet.
Also my own personal rule was i will not marry somebody unless we have been together atleast 3 years first.
posted by majortom1981 at 11:59 AM on June 16, 2011
ps we have been having more sex after marriage BUT we did not live together since her parents would not let her till she was married.
posted by majortom1981 at 12:00 PM on June 16, 2011
posted by majortom1981 at 12:00 PM on June 16, 2011
I wanted to add, it is fine for everyone to say "you are your own person" with regards to infidelity, but truth is - those who have a family history if this, no matter how good their intentions, are likely to repeat those patterns. Same with child abuse, etc., etc. It doesn't make rational sense, but there it is.
I felt that I needed to come back and clarify: you need therapy/something to help you figure out what a positive, healthy, faithful relationship looks like and how you prevent infidelity. The patterns you specify are not those of someone actively protecting their relationsip from that kind of deception.
Good on you for being so self-aware of both of your issues, though.
posted by Acer_saccharum at 12:51 PM on June 16, 2011 [1 favorite]
I felt that I needed to come back and clarify: you need therapy/something to help you figure out what a positive, healthy, faithful relationship looks like and how you prevent infidelity. The patterns you specify are not those of someone actively protecting their relationsip from that kind of deception.
Good on you for being so self-aware of both of your issues, though.
posted by Acer_saccharum at 12:51 PM on June 16, 2011 [1 favorite]
IF you are both say 20 you are too young yet. If you are both say 26 or so then you are old enough.
This is meaningless, really - my mother married at 21, as did my sister. I didn't feel nearly old enough to think about getting married in my mid-20s! It's really dependent on the individual.
Personally I wouldn't want to marry someone if I hadn't lived with them for a good long period of time - again, your idea of this may vary, but two years isn't a very long time to be with someone before marrying them; I wouldn't feel like I'd got to know them well enough, even if I was sure I was in love with them. I wonder if there is some kind of cultural/social pressure making you think about marriage right now - why are you so keen to do it when you clearly have reservations?
posted by mippy at 2:45 PM on June 16, 2011 [1 favorite]
This is meaningless, really - my mother married at 21, as did my sister. I didn't feel nearly old enough to think about getting married in my mid-20s! It's really dependent on the individual.
Personally I wouldn't want to marry someone if I hadn't lived with them for a good long period of time - again, your idea of this may vary, but two years isn't a very long time to be with someone before marrying them; I wouldn't feel like I'd got to know them well enough, even if I was sure I was in love with them. I wonder if there is some kind of cultural/social pressure making you think about marriage right now - why are you so keen to do it when you clearly have reservations?
posted by mippy at 2:45 PM on June 16, 2011 [1 favorite]
There is no cheating gene? Well… BUT the author of the study also says: “We’re never prisoners of our genes,” he said. “We know that biology shapes our differences, helps explain what motivates us and what we desire. But over millions of years, humans have evolved big brains that allow us to make decisions. We always have the ability to say, ‘I’m not going to do this.’” (Similar to what desjardins said.)
By the way, these aren't small fears and dilemmas so don't try to minimize them.
1. If you were a child/grandchild whose parent/grandparent cheated on their spouses, and you KNOW how destructive and painful it was, why the heck would you even think about the possibility that you could cheat on your partner and inflict that same kind of destruction and pain on someone else? Oh right, because of the ego boost and need to "conquer". This is the sort of thing that you really need to work through in therapy, so you can actually trust yourself (because it seems like you don't) to make a decision to not cheat.
2. I feel like #1 will happen if #2 is not properly dealt with.
3. However, if and when we are married I want to be absolutely clear that this kind of communication style will not fly in my presence. If her parents spout some negative judgment it will be promptly reflected to them even at the price of even greater drama.
You say you want to be absolutely clear. Make sure you are absolutely clear about this BEFORE you get married. And in the meantime, you guys should really talk about this marriage thing. Sure, surprising her with a ring on bended kneed completely out of the blue is romantic (in the movies), but it's really putting her on the spot. What if she has misgivings (like you) about marriage? Talk about it first!
She's wonderful and you've been with her a long time but… why do you want to get married? Those two reasons alone aren't reasons by themselves to get married. Plus you've got 3 pretty big issues that need some discussion and resolution no matter what. Do you know what marriage is about and what it involves? It is NOT just living happily ever after. Get married because you want marriage, and that you feel that you can handle what it entails. My belief is that you need more than love in a relationship - you need relationship skills like communication, conflict resolution, negotiation and compromise, self-awareness, honesty…. These skills need to be developed, like any other skill. They don't just happen because you love each other. It helps to love each other, but love is something in and of itself.
posted by foxjacket at 5:02 PM on June 16, 2011 [1 favorite]
By the way, these aren't small fears and dilemmas so don't try to minimize them.
1. If you were a child/grandchild whose parent/grandparent cheated on their spouses, and you KNOW how destructive and painful it was, why the heck would you even think about the possibility that you could cheat on your partner and inflict that same kind of destruction and pain on someone else? Oh right, because of the ego boost and need to "conquer". This is the sort of thing that you really need to work through in therapy, so you can actually trust yourself (because it seems like you don't) to make a decision to not cheat.
2. I feel like #1 will happen if #2 is not properly dealt with.
3. However, if and when we are married I want to be absolutely clear that this kind of communication style will not fly in my presence. If her parents spout some negative judgment it will be promptly reflected to them even at the price of even greater drama.
You say you want to be absolutely clear. Make sure you are absolutely clear about this BEFORE you get married. And in the meantime, you guys should really talk about this marriage thing. Sure, surprising her with a ring on bended kneed completely out of the blue is romantic (in the movies), but it's really putting her on the spot. What if she has misgivings (like you) about marriage? Talk about it first!
She's wonderful and you've been with her a long time but… why do you want to get married? Those two reasons alone aren't reasons by themselves to get married. Plus you've got 3 pretty big issues that need some discussion and resolution no matter what. Do you know what marriage is about and what it involves? It is NOT just living happily ever after. Get married because you want marriage, and that you feel that you can handle what it entails. My belief is that you need more than love in a relationship - you need relationship skills like communication, conflict resolution, negotiation and compromise, self-awareness, honesty…. These skills need to be developed, like any other skill. They don't just happen because you love each other. It helps to love each other, but love is something in and of itself.
posted by foxjacket at 5:02 PM on June 16, 2011 [1 favorite]
Don't be that flirty guy telling me about how his wife is very nice and all, but not the most exciting person in the world, nudge nudge wink wink can I buy you a drink? (ugh!!!!)
Be the guy who is telling me about the amazing lady he married in a friendly but non-flirty conversation.
Marry her and you will be the first guy, marry a wild crazy woman who you consider your equal and it will be the second.
posted by meepmeow at 6:38 PM on June 16, 2011 [1 favorite]
Be the guy who is telling me about the amazing lady he married in a friendly but non-flirty conversation.
Marry her and you will be the first guy, marry a wild crazy woman who you consider your equal and it will be the second.
posted by meepmeow at 6:38 PM on June 16, 2011 [1 favorite]
Well... here's the thing about sex: a lot of guys (especially young guys) are going to find the inexperienced girl more appealing as "girlfriend/wife material" -- yet, still... oh, they'd like things to be more wild in the sex department.
For the most part, this sets everyone up for a lose-lose situation. I'd say it's relatively uncommon for the girl to be both the virginal, pure, traditional "good" girl and the wild, uninhibited sex goddess (but only with you, because she's never had any significant range of sexual experience with others).
In this situation, the guy is secure that he's the knowing, confident one sexually, that she's not comparing him to others, and there's not much chance he's going to be judged not skillful enough. So that's nice, but soon enough the eye starts wandering, and the libido seems obsessed with those other girls, the naughty sex-having girls. What to do?!
One would rather not cheat... But having a girlfriend/wife who knows what she wants and how she wants it who is enthusiastic about sex games feels like a scary idea. What if I'm not good enough for her? What if she's thinking of some other guy she's been with while she's with me? What if I can't satisfy her?
So, too many go the route of having the relationship with the "good girl," but cheating on the side.
Instead, I'd recommend either being brave enough to be with someone who can satisfy you and even challenge you sexually because it's not their first time around the block, or be patient enough to honestly work through the issues with the one who lacks that experience.
Do not get married now. What you need to determine is if your sex drives are incompatible, or if she's just inhibited because of shyness, programming, fear of pregnancy, body issues, physical pain, trauma, or insecurity. It may be that you two will just never match up that way... or perhaps she has different preferences and fantasies that she's ashamed to bring up. I think counseling and discussion is a good plan.
Don't go into a marriage with an already wandering eye... but even if everything works out, it's something you need to sort out in your head and heart, because temptation will never just go away -- and at some point it just becomes a straight-up character issue.
posted by taz at 7:29 AM on June 17, 2011 [10 favorites]
For the most part, this sets everyone up for a lose-lose situation. I'd say it's relatively uncommon for the girl to be both the virginal, pure, traditional "good" girl and the wild, uninhibited sex goddess (but only with you, because she's never had any significant range of sexual experience with others).
In this situation, the guy is secure that he's the knowing, confident one sexually, that she's not comparing him to others, and there's not much chance he's going to be judged not skillful enough. So that's nice, but soon enough the eye starts wandering, and the libido seems obsessed with those other girls, the naughty sex-having girls. What to do?!
One would rather not cheat... But having a girlfriend/wife who knows what she wants and how she wants it who is enthusiastic about sex games feels like a scary idea. What if I'm not good enough for her? What if she's thinking of some other guy she's been with while she's with me? What if I can't satisfy her?
So, too many go the route of having the relationship with the "good girl," but cheating on the side.
Instead, I'd recommend either being brave enough to be with someone who can satisfy you and even challenge you sexually because it's not their first time around the block, or be patient enough to honestly work through the issues with the one who lacks that experience.
Do not get married now. What you need to determine is if your sex drives are incompatible, or if she's just inhibited because of shyness, programming, fear of pregnancy, body issues, physical pain, trauma, or insecurity. It may be that you two will just never match up that way... or perhaps she has different preferences and fantasies that she's ashamed to bring up. I think counseling and discussion is a good plan.
Don't go into a marriage with an already wandering eye... but even if everything works out, it's something you need to sort out in your head and heart, because temptation will never just go away -- and at some point it just becomes a straight-up character issue.
posted by taz at 7:29 AM on June 17, 2011 [10 favorites]
foxjacket: If you were a child/grandchild whose parent/grandparent cheated on their spouses, and you KNOW how destructive and painful it was, why the heck would you even think about the possibility that you could cheat on your partner and inflict that same kind of destruction and pain on someone else?
What was a source of trauma in childhood often becomes a source of arousal* in adolescence and adulthood. See also: Abused/abandoned girls who grow up and marry abusers.
*"Arousal" in this case is not necessarily sexual, just stimulative.
posted by coolguymichael at 9:29 AM on June 17, 2011
What was a source of trauma in childhood often becomes a source of arousal* in adolescence and adulthood. See also: Abused/abandoned girls who grow up and marry abusers.
*"Arousal" in this case is not necessarily sexual, just stimulative.
posted by coolguymichael at 9:29 AM on June 17, 2011
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What's preventing you from continuing in a de facto partnership, at least until some of these issues are resolved?
posted by smithsmith at 7:04 PM on June 15, 2011 [2 favorites]