Dress code violation that wasn't a violation, would you fight it?
June 8, 2011 9:58 PM Subscribe
Would you stand up for someone that you felt was being treated unfairly at your workplace?
A friend of mine at work was dinged for a "dress code violation" when it wasn't a violation at all.
Someone reported her to HR for a short dress and then HR talked to her about the day after. Problem is, no one in HR actually saw the dress.
She wore the same dress the next day to show HR and they said it was fine. She asked them to talk to whoever reported her and explain the dress was appropriate. HR declined.
She also requested they admit they made a mistake by not seeing her dress first. This particular HR person became defensive and said that there are probably other days she violated the dress code.
I feel my friend is being treated unfairly in this situation and want to talk to HR about my feelings on the issue...should I? I believe in standing up for those that are treated unfairly, I have a particular issue when people in any department won't admit a mistake they've made.
I'm pretty senior level at the company, so it could have some impact and I'm not concerned about losing my job or a bad reputation...
Should I do it? What are the consequences?
A friend of mine at work was dinged for a "dress code violation" when it wasn't a violation at all.
Someone reported her to HR for a short dress and then HR talked to her about the day after. Problem is, no one in HR actually saw the dress.
She wore the same dress the next day to show HR and they said it was fine. She asked them to talk to whoever reported her and explain the dress was appropriate. HR declined.
She also requested they admit they made a mistake by not seeing her dress first. This particular HR person became defensive and said that there are probably other days she violated the dress code.
I feel my friend is being treated unfairly in this situation and want to talk to HR about my feelings on the issue...should I? I believe in standing up for those that are treated unfairly, I have a particular issue when people in any department won't admit a mistake they've made.
I'm pretty senior level at the company, so it could have some impact and I'm not concerned about losing my job or a bad reputation...
Should I do it? What are the consequences?
Best answer: What do you hope to gain by complaining and will complaining achieve the goal? Are you trying to affect a change in the way this particular HR person does her job or are you trying to show your friend and employees that you will stick up for what is right?
It is not clear to me what the ramifications are of having been accused (and convicted in absentia) of violating the dress code. Will she be docked pay? Denied promotion? Not allowed out at recess? My point is, is this a fight worth fighting on either of your parts?
But, if you are not worried about getting fired or your reputation, I would inquire as to what happened. Right now you only have one side of the story. Simply going to HR and asking what happened may either get the desired change, may get you a totally different story or may just get more defensive posturing. I wouldn't accuse until you know. I would inquire and tell them you are trying to understand what happened as your friend was very upset.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:18 PM on June 8, 2011 [11 favorites]
It is not clear to me what the ramifications are of having been accused (and convicted in absentia) of violating the dress code. Will she be docked pay? Denied promotion? Not allowed out at recess? My point is, is this a fight worth fighting on either of your parts?
But, if you are not worried about getting fired or your reputation, I would inquire as to what happened. Right now you only have one side of the story. Simply going to HR and asking what happened may either get the desired change, may get you a totally different story or may just get more defensive posturing. I wouldn't accuse until you know. I would inquire and tell them you are trying to understand what happened as your friend was very upset.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:18 PM on June 8, 2011 [11 favorites]
Also, not sure I would like the work environment where someone is anonymously reporting a coworker for a dress code violation. If that is your department, there is some sort of morale problem down below.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:21 PM on June 8, 2011 [7 favorites]
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:21 PM on June 8, 2011 [7 favorites]
Best answer: I would start with "Help me understand the policy, and how it can be enforced without confirmation..."
If it's happened to her, it'll happen to someone else. And, as JohnnyGunn mentioned, it could be symptomatic of a larger problem in the workplace, and it may do more good to address that.
Just don't do it via email. Please.
posted by guster4lovers at 10:24 PM on June 8, 2011
If it's happened to her, it'll happen to someone else. And, as JohnnyGunn mentioned, it could be symptomatic of a larger problem in the workplace, and it may do more good to address that.
Just don't do it via email. Please.
posted by guster4lovers at 10:24 PM on June 8, 2011
I would do it too. In the grand scheme of things, the folks in HR are supposed to be the by-the-book folks in a company. If you have shitty HR folks, that needs to be remedied. I don't know where you are in the org chart, but if you have access to head of HR (this HR person's boss), you need to make it excruciatingly clear what happened, how wrong it was, and how that puts the company at risk. You need to be incredibly disappointed in how this was handled. Presumably, the head HR person _is_ a by-the-book kind of person. The shitty HR person will get an ass-chewing or termination.
And yes, it is not about your friend, it is about the company. Position it as having made the person feel uncomfortable. This is something that should never happen in HR; HR is supposed to make that go away.
If you wanted to twist the knife (and I would). I would also ask that the shitty person give an apology and report back to the dime-dropper as originally requested.
posted by milqman at 10:26 PM on June 8, 2011 [3 favorites]
And yes, it is not about your friend, it is about the company. Position it as having made the person feel uncomfortable. This is something that should never happen in HR; HR is supposed to make that go away.
If you wanted to twist the knife (and I would). I would also ask that the shitty person give an apology and report back to the dime-dropper as originally requested.
posted by milqman at 10:26 PM on June 8, 2011 [3 favorites]
I would inquire as to what happened. Right now you only have one side of the story. Simply going to HR and asking what happened may either get the desired change, may get you a totally different story or may just get more defensive posturing. I wouldn't accuse until you know. I would inquire and tell them you are trying to understand what happened.
This.
posted by Jon_Evil at 10:31 PM on June 8, 2011
This.
posted by Jon_Evil at 10:31 PM on June 8, 2011
Response by poster: Thank you for the responses.
My main goal is to show other employees and my friend that I'm willing to stick up for what is right. I have very little hope that any policies will actually change, it's like trying to steer the titanic. I do see them coming back at me and saying that I shouldn't be involved in another employees HR issues...but at least I'll have tried and can express how it's not just affecting a single employee.
Thanks for the advice, JohnnyGunn, on just inquiring for now and now being accusatory, need to keep those emotions in check sometimes...
And milqman, I'll take up with the head of HR if I can't get anything resolved at the current level it's at. Don't want to bring in the sledgehammer if I don't have to.
posted by MeatFilter at 10:31 PM on June 8, 2011
My main goal is to show other employees and my friend that I'm willing to stick up for what is right. I have very little hope that any policies will actually change, it's like trying to steer the titanic. I do see them coming back at me and saying that I shouldn't be involved in another employees HR issues...but at least I'll have tried and can express how it's not just affecting a single employee.
Thanks for the advice, JohnnyGunn, on just inquiring for now and now being accusatory, need to keep those emotions in check sometimes...
And milqman, I'll take up with the head of HR if I can't get anything resolved at the current level it's at. Don't want to bring in the sledgehammer if I don't have to.
posted by MeatFilter at 10:31 PM on June 8, 2011
I would stand up for this person, because it's very odd that they wouldn't even let this woman know who her accuser was. That, plus the fact that this was kind of a sexual/gender related complaint and obviously awkward for your coworker. No one should have to deal with that, in my opinion.
That said, I live in a city and work in a field in which there are plenty of jobs, so YMMV.
posted by sweetkid at 10:45 PM on June 8, 2011
That said, I live in a city and work in a field in which there are plenty of jobs, so YMMV.
posted by sweetkid at 10:45 PM on June 8, 2011
Why use someone else's situation to make yourself look good?
posted by Ideefixe at 10:51 PM on June 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by Ideefixe at 10:51 PM on June 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
Personally, I wouldn't do it. I'm a firm believer in doing the right thing, but I don't see how this is a good idea, especially given that (1) this is a friend, (2) you are a senior person at this company and (3) not really your problem and not really a big deal. You could potentially give the impression of impropriety.
HR absolutely should not let your friend know who the accuser is, that's how it works at, dare I say most companies, if not, it probably should. People need to have some faith in HR that their conversations are confidential. Imagine if they weren't. People would really be hesitant to reach out to them if they knew you'd be exposed.
I think there are or will be other opportunities to take a stand, I don't see this as a good one.
posted by SoulOnIce at 12:05 AM on June 9, 2011
HR absolutely should not let your friend know who the accuser is, that's how it works at, dare I say most companies, if not, it probably should. People need to have some faith in HR that their conversations are confidential. Imagine if they weren't. People would really be hesitant to reach out to them if they knew you'd be exposed.
I think there are or will be other opportunities to take a stand, I don't see this as a good one.
posted by SoulOnIce at 12:05 AM on June 9, 2011
it's very odd that they wouldn't even let this woman know who her accuser was
No, it's not. I have been on the accused ends of things and they won't tell you. It is (or was, in my case) considered confidential. Otherwise, how would they get people to dime others out?
posted by chiefthe at 1:55 AM on June 9, 2011
No, it's not. I have been on the accused ends of things and they won't tell you. It is (or was, in my case) considered confidential. Otherwise, how would they get people to dime others out?
posted by chiefthe at 1:55 AM on June 9, 2011
Let the dress thing go. If you want to support your friend, gently help her without stirring up shit for anyone else.
Quietly nudge her towards a promotable track. See if the company will pay for outside training she might need before she can move up. Remember her the next time your team has a position she would be suitable to fill. Get her on committees and projects with you so you are in a position to honestly put in a good word for her.
posted by pracowity at 2:42 AM on June 9, 2011 [3 favorites]
Quietly nudge her towards a promotable track. See if the company will pay for outside training she might need before she can move up. Remember her the next time your team has a position she would be suitable to fill. Get her on committees and projects with you so you are in a position to honestly put in a good word for her.
posted by pracowity at 2:42 AM on June 9, 2011 [3 favorites]
She also requested they admit they made a mistake by not seeing her dress first. This particular HR person became defensive and said that there are probably other days she violated the dress code.
"There are probably other days she violated the dress code"? That's some weak sauce ass-covering right there. Either she violated the dress code, HR confirmed it, and she deserved the ding, or the whole thing should be forgotten. HR is not behaving honourably.
However, what isn't clear is whether is really matters. If this will have no future consequences for your friend, I would let it go. Otherwise, if you know somebody in HR, especially somebody high up, you could do it in a really friendly, "Hey, this sounded a little weird to me, do you know what's up?" fashion. I think that's going to get you further than striding in with guns blazing.
Good on you for wanting to stick up for your friend.
posted by Georgina at 2:54 AM on June 9, 2011
"There are probably other days she violated the dress code"? That's some weak sauce ass-covering right there. Either she violated the dress code, HR confirmed it, and she deserved the ding, or the whole thing should be forgotten. HR is not behaving honourably.
However, what isn't clear is whether is really matters. If this will have no future consequences for your friend, I would let it go. Otherwise, if you know somebody in HR, especially somebody high up, you could do it in a really friendly, "Hey, this sounded a little weird to me, do you know what's up?" fashion. I think that's going to get you further than striding in with guns blazing.
Good on you for wanting to stick up for your friend.
posted by Georgina at 2:54 AM on June 9, 2011
If your motivation is to stick up for your friend, then you wont be successful at "just inquring"- I have a feeling you won't stop until you've made it clear that you're sticking up for your friend.
It sounds like the HR person got defensive because she knew she was wrong--that's immature--but are you going to get a different outcome? Or are you going to end up with an HR person who further scrutinzes your friend until she finds some kind of violation?
Consider a different tact: go to hr and tell them you're glad it was successfully resolved. That let's them know you're in the loop watching for good outcomes and gives them "credit" for reconsidering the dress and backing down.
If you're not in a position to praise them for this, you're probably not senior enough to go in and and complain about it, either.
/
posted by vitabellosi at 3:06 AM on June 9, 2011 [3 favorites]
It sounds like the HR person got defensive because she knew she was wrong--that's immature--but are you going to get a different outcome? Or are you going to end up with an HR person who further scrutinzes your friend until she finds some kind of violation?
Consider a different tact: go to hr and tell them you're glad it was successfully resolved. That let's them know you're in the loop watching for good outcomes and gives them "credit" for reconsidering the dress and backing down.
If you're not in a position to praise them for this, you're probably not senior enough to go in and and complain about it, either.
/
posted by vitabellosi at 3:06 AM on June 9, 2011 [3 favorites]
Best answer: My answer wasn't very clear ---you assume hr did the right thing and then they know what the right thing looks like. You give them credit for it, and if they didn't already remove the ding from your friend's file, they quietly go remove it after you leave.
It's a subtle move that works if you can pull off the naivete and it allows everyone to save face.
But again, if you're not senior enough for hr to want to please you, then you're not senior enough to go in with righteous indignation, either.
posted by vitabellosi at 3:15 AM on June 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
It's a subtle move that works if you can pull off the naivete and it allows everyone to save face.
But again, if you're not senior enough for hr to want to please you, then you're not senior enough to go in with righteous indignation, either.
posted by vitabellosi at 3:15 AM on June 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
Best answer: If you do decide to address this with HR, you'll get better treatment and better results if you admit up front that you don't know the whole story and cannot possibly condemn what happened. Because you don't, and you can't. If you go in with guns blazing about how your friend was wronged, you will not be taken seriously and your friend will be on HR's shit list for escalating the issue by involving you.
What you can do is inquire, because you are confused and concerned about how the process is supposed to work. You know your friend's perspective might be biased, and you know she will get over this particular incident, but it troubles you to think that employees can get a black mark on their records in this sort of circumstance. Ask for an explanation so that you can understand. If there is no good explanation, and HR has to admit that this was a sloppy action on HR's part or has to concoct a crappy rationalization, you will make your point without any confrontation at all.
posted by jon1270 at 3:25 AM on June 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
What you can do is inquire, because you are confused and concerned about how the process is supposed to work. You know your friend's perspective might be biased, and you know she will get over this particular incident, but it troubles you to think that employees can get a black mark on their records in this sort of circumstance. Ask for an explanation so that you can understand. If there is no good explanation, and HR has to admit that this was a sloppy action on HR's part or has to concoct a crappy rationalization, you will make your point without any confrontation at all.
posted by jon1270 at 3:25 AM on June 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
If you are your friend's supervisor, you have a credible reason for inquiring about this. If you're just a colleague, there's no way HR is going to discuss a disciplinary action with you.
posted by Sweetie Darling at 4:26 AM on June 9, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by Sweetie Darling at 4:26 AM on June 9, 2011 [5 favorites]
I feel like we're - or maybe just me - missing something here. How did HR make a mistake? By not immediately running down to look at her dress? I'm totally on board that the HR person needlessly got defensive, but I don't know, seems like a whole lot of drama for nothing. In fact, it sounds like the person who reported the alleged violation is more of a potential problem than your friend.
posted by SoulOnIce at 5:28 AM on June 9, 2011
posted by SoulOnIce at 5:28 AM on June 9, 2011
Hrrm...I would have to say first of all I'm really not sure that there's really a deal here to be upset about, and secondly, definitely stand up for things that are important but this seems really minor and not something to stick your neck out about.
posted by sully75 at 5:35 AM on June 9, 2011
posted by sully75 at 5:35 AM on June 9, 2011
Response by poster: Thanks again for all the answers and suggestions for how to approach the situation, some very good advice here.
I don't know if there really is more to the story, but I certainly want to find out.
But I treat others the same way, get your stuff done, I don't care what hours you work or what you wear or where you want to sit...you're an adult and can make your own decisions.
posted by MeatFilter at 7:47 AM on June 9, 2011
I don't know if there really is more to the story, but I certainly want to find out.
But I treat others the same way, get your stuff done, I don't care what hours you work or what you wear or where you want to sit...you're an adult and can make your own decisions.
posted by MeatFilter at 7:47 AM on June 9, 2011
My knee-jerk reaction is to not get involved. I've learned that petty, power hungry people in the office generally don't become less petty and less power hungry when you call them out. In fact, these people seem ingeniously designed to be able to screw you over in unexpected ways.
I agree with those who say that if you are a person who HR gives a shit about impressing then you can have a calm, reasoned discussion with them about the policy and its enforcement and maybe even drop a hint that you are just as concerned about who might be making these reports as it seems to have created a little drama about nothing. But then tell them you think they are doing a great job and thank them for handling it.
But, seriously, if you're not one of the owners of the company, they probably don't care about you. If your name is not listed in annual reports, they don't care.
posted by amanda at 7:53 AM on June 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
I agree with those who say that if you are a person who HR gives a shit about impressing then you can have a calm, reasoned discussion with them about the policy and its enforcement and maybe even drop a hint that you are just as concerned about who might be making these reports as it seems to have created a little drama about nothing. But then tell them you think they are doing a great job and thank them for handling it.
But, seriously, if you're not one of the owners of the company, they probably don't care about you. If your name is not listed in annual reports, they don't care.
posted by amanda at 7:53 AM on June 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
I disagree with the majority here. They talked to her about it... what did they say? Sure it could have been "You wore a short dress and that's a Very Serious issue and you need to never wear a short dress ever again." Or it could have been "Someone complained that you wore a short dress, please make sure that your clothing meets our dress code." One of those assumes that she was in the wrong, the other one makes no assumptions. Also, you say she was dinged. Was that just the talking to? A note that there was one complaint about a dress, to keep a record in case it becomes a trend? Also, you have no way of knowing but maybe the complainer got a note, too, and if complaining becomes a trend then they'll talk to the complainer.
How was her tone when she followed up on it? Again, two ways it could go... "That person is so wrong, my dress was not short, I demand to know who it was and that you tell them that they're wrong." Or, "I believe my dress does meet the dress code. [show dress to HR] So can I wear this dress again? What happens if there is another complaint about it?"
It's not clear from your post how HR originally phased things, but it sounds like your friend took the more aggressive route. Sure HR should be more mature about dealing with it, instead of getting so defensive, but the way to get people to stop being defensive is to back off a little, not apply more pressure.
posted by anaelith at 9:31 AM on June 9, 2011
How was her tone when she followed up on it? Again, two ways it could go... "That person is so wrong, my dress was not short, I demand to know who it was and that you tell them that they're wrong." Or, "I believe my dress does meet the dress code. [show dress to HR] So can I wear this dress again? What happens if there is another complaint about it?"
It's not clear from your post how HR originally phased things, but it sounds like your friend took the more aggressive route. Sure HR should be more mature about dealing with it, instead of getting so defensive, but the way to get people to stop being defensive is to back off a little, not apply more pressure.
posted by anaelith at 9:31 AM on June 9, 2011
I think it's borderline weird for a senior man at a company to get involved in a more junior woman's HR issue, especially when it concerns apparel and is rather petty. It would be different perhaps if she was your subordinate. But in this situation it seems weird for you to ride to your rescue.
posted by jayder at 10:16 AM on June 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by jayder at 10:16 AM on June 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
What does your friend want you to do? Because if you go to HR they're going to assume she asked you to whether she did or not, and it could make her look like a trouble maker. Getting some higher up friend to go asking questions about something that doesn't concern them isn't how these things are normally handled, so unless you're her boss and she specifically asked you to do something about it, stay out of it.
posted by shelleycat at 10:53 AM on June 9, 2011
posted by shelleycat at 10:53 AM on June 9, 2011
I would inquire as to what happened. Right now you only have one side of the story. Simply going to HR and asking what happened may either get the desired change, may get you a totally different story or may just get more defensive posturing.
HR person: "Sorry, we can't discuss other employees."
This situation is why I don't work for places with policies I find ridiculous.
posted by coolguymichael at 11:56 AM on June 9, 2011
HR person: "Sorry, we can't discuss other employees."
This situation is why I don't work for places with policies I find ridiculous.
posted by coolguymichael at 11:56 AM on June 9, 2011
Back at my last office job, I was the "art department" for the Marketing arm. Our brand new web master was also part of the Marketing dept. He had come on at the end of January, and his first task was to completely overhaul and work with me to redesign the company website. The guy was amazing and we worked great together. We became good friends.
Flash-forward to December. Lo-and-behold, the powers-that-be decided to hand-out bonuses! I assumes we ALL would be getting checks. I found out, though, that it was decided not to give the web master a bonus check because....ready for this?...He had come on at the end of January and, thus, had not been with the company at least a year.
W
T
F
?????????
I was appalled. I gave my bonus check back and made it completely clear what I thought about the situation. I really could not live with myself and take the check when the web master had done so much hard work over the course of the year.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:23 PM on June 9, 2011
Flash-forward to December. Lo-and-behold, the powers-that-be decided to hand-out bonuses! I assumes we ALL would be getting checks. I found out, though, that it was decided not to give the web master a bonus check because....ready for this?...He had come on at the end of January and, thus, had not been with the company at least a year.
W
T
F
?????????
I was appalled. I gave my bonus check back and made it completely clear what I thought about the situation. I really could not live with myself and take the check when the web master had done so much hard work over the course of the year.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:23 PM on June 9, 2011
I would talk to the employee's manager and have them talk to HR.
posted by radioamy at 12:52 PM on June 9, 2011
posted by radioamy at 12:52 PM on June 9, 2011
it's very odd that they wouldn't even let this woman know who her accuser was.
As pointed out upthread, this is the opposite of true. People go to HR all the time complaining about their colleagues, and are usually not identified. Everything from "that person's perfume is making me gag" to "that person won't stop grabbing all our asses." Work it our for yourself why HR aims to be discreet.
To the OP: I don't understand what you and your friend are angry about. What does dinged mean? If HR told her to adhere to the dress code, and then told her the next day that the dress does adhere to it, what's the problem? Is there an official reprimand in her file that needs to be removed? If not, then you should chill out.
It sounds like a terrible company. Like nobody has anything better to do than pick fights and nurture resentments. Yuck.
posted by Susan PG at 2:35 AM on June 12, 2011
As pointed out upthread, this is the opposite of true. People go to HR all the time complaining about their colleagues, and are usually not identified. Everything from "that person's perfume is making me gag" to "that person won't stop grabbing all our asses." Work it our for yourself why HR aims to be discreet.
To the OP: I don't understand what you and your friend are angry about. What does dinged mean? If HR told her to adhere to the dress code, and then told her the next day that the dress does adhere to it, what's the problem? Is there an official reprimand in her file that needs to be removed? If not, then you should chill out.
It sounds like a terrible company. Like nobody has anything better to do than pick fights and nurture resentments. Yuck.
posted by Susan PG at 2:35 AM on June 12, 2011
Response by poster: Just to give an update, I did bring it up to the VP of HR and they agreed that it was ridiculous.
posted by MeatFilter at 7:54 PM on July 15, 2011
posted by MeatFilter at 7:54 PM on July 15, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by MexicanYenta at 10:12 PM on June 8, 2011 [3 favorites]