Should I see the school psychiatrist?
January 14, 2011 1:48 PM Subscribe
My professor is requiring that I see the school psychiatrist. What should I do?
Sorry, this is terribly long, but I feel that the back story is necessary to understanding why I was referred to the school psychiatrist in the first place.
I am in school for a health career that involves interaction with patients. We has an assignment to interview patients in groups in a hospital, and our teacher asked for a volunteer to do a solo interview that she would personally observe. Nobody was volunteering, and I thought it would be good practice, so I volunteered to interview the patient solo.
I was significantly more nervous about being observed than I thought I would be, and could feel my hands shaking. The patient had an incredibly complex history, and I wanted to do a good job, so I took copious notes to try to keep track of the details of their many issues. I realized that in an effort to understand the patients multiple issues, I had deviated from the usual interview structure, and skipped a few important questions. I looked back at my professor to see if she had any feedback. I was nervous and could tell that the interview was not going well. My professor was frowning. I wasn't sure how to interpret that, but I figured the worst thing would be to miss an important piece of information, so I asked the patient more questions, I asked the questions that I had skipped, and attempted to gather as much information as possible. It was the worst interview I had ever done, but I felt that I got all the necessary information.
After the interview, my professor took me aside and said "That was terrible. How have you even made it this far?" She explained that I went too long, was disorganized, and that she didn't understand how I had been allowed to pass my courses related to patient care. I tried to apologize, and explain that I was extremely nervous, and that this wasn't typical for me. I agreed that I was disorganized, said that was something I was practicing to try to improve, and asked if she had any specific suggestions. She just kept shaking her head and saying "That was really really bad. I thought you could do this, but clearly you can't."
I was particularly hurt because she had taught a course on building empathy. I had been in a discussion group with this professor, and we has confessed our deepest fears and anxieties. This professor had a reputation for being cold, but I gradually came to trust her. I thought she had gotten a bad rap - she seemed like a shy but caring person, a good listener, and very human.
That's why I was so shocked that her feedback was so negative. I told her I was going to practice interviewing with a special eye for organization, and asked her again for specific suggestions on how I can improve.
She said that I took too many notes, and went too long. "You weren't present at all! You weren't even listening to the patient! You didn't have any empathy at all. How did you have us all fooled?"
That hurt a lot. As much as I tried to fight it, my eyes started watering. She said that I would need to be monitored closely by the faculty, and I nodded and said "I just want to improve. I'll do whatever you think will improve my performance."
That week I met with a classmate, and worked on organization and timing. I practiced with a family member. I tried to improve my performance. I think I am an empathetic person, but I practiced expressing empathy verbally.
It came time for another evaluation, and I was shitting bricks. I didn't know who would be observing me (this time behind a two way mirror), but I knew they would be watching me closely.
I interviewed the standardized patient. I did almost everything in the correct order. I payed careful attention to time. I took minimal notes. I listened to the patient and made extra sure to thank them for sharing their information, and to mirror back what they were saying so that the could correct me if I had something wrong. When they mentioned that they were in pain, I reassured them that we would do everything possible to find out what was causing it, and work to help make them comfortable. I was incredibly nervous, but I thought the interview went pretty well.
When my evaluator came out, she asked me how I thought I did. I said I thought I did okay, but mentioned the things I did out of order, and mentioned a few small steps I had skipped. She said that she had been asked to watch me by the other professor, but that she was surprised at how well I did, that my performance didn't fit the description given to her by the first professor at all. I thanked her, but I was really embarrassed.
She asked why I thought I had done so poorly the first time, and I said that I had been very nervous. She asked if the hospital setting had made me nervous, and even though I didn't think that was the main problem, I said yes. I didn't want to say that I get anxious about being scruitinized, because there will be many more instances in my academic career when I will be observed and critiqued. She asked why hospitals made me nervous, and I said I was worried about saying something insensitive to a patient who is coping with a lot of pain or a life threatening illness. I told her that I had a family member who had been hospitalized, and had complained about the way they had been treated by staff. I told her that I didn't want to cause patients any more stress than necessary.
She said that I was very different from she had expected from the other patient's email. I was so incredibly embarrassed at this point that I started tearing up again. She seemed concerned and said that if I cry that easily, I was in for a rough couple of years as I advanced in my training. She suggested that I seek therapy to work through my issues. I nodded, but didn't tell her that I am already seeing a therapist regularly.
I recently got an email from the first professor saying that to pass the class, I will need to meet with the school psychiatrist to "assess my attitudes and emotional well being."
So here's the rub. I have seen the school psychiatrist, and I really don't want to see her again for a number of reasons, including that I don't trust that the sessions are confidential. During sessions, she would leave my prescriptions in the common copy machine that she shares with the first professor as well as a dozen other administrators. One time she left my prescriptions there for for over 30 min, even though I asked if she could move them someone more private.
She has also accused me of lying. During a session last year, I asked for my usual prescription of 150mg of an antidepressant. She said that according to her notes said I was taking 300 mg. I said that I had only ever taken 150 mg, and that she had prescribed me 150 mg in the past, but she said I was trying to exert control and wrote me a script for 300 mg. I thought I might have been mistaken about the, but when I got home I saw that my previous prescription was indeed for 150mg. I knew it would be very hard to get another appointment with her, so I took the 300 mg and was loopy for a month until I saw her again. When I saw her, I tried to explain I was having terrible side effects, and that 300 mg was too much. She said I was perseverating and paranoid. I told her I felt terrible, and asked her to look at her notes to see that she had prescribed me 150 mg in the past. She looked at her notes, and saw that I had indeed been taking 150 mg. She asked me: "Why did you tell me you were taking 300 mg?" I said "I didn't." She rolled her eyes, and I decided not to argue with her.
So I have to schedule an appointment to talk to her about my emotional well-being and I really don't want to. Since the middle of last year I have been seeing a different psychiatrist who is not affiliated with my school, and he has been treating me for Generalized Anxiety Disorder. I haven't yet told him about this situation because I have been away on break, but I will see him again next week. I don't know what to do. It seems like I should suck it up and see the school psychiatrist, but at this point I feel like anything I say can, and will be used against me.
What do you suggest I do?
If you want to contact me, my temporary email is mouse_anon@yahoo.com
Sorry, this is terribly long, but I feel that the back story is necessary to understanding why I was referred to the school psychiatrist in the first place.
I am in school for a health career that involves interaction with patients. We has an assignment to interview patients in groups in a hospital, and our teacher asked for a volunteer to do a solo interview that she would personally observe. Nobody was volunteering, and I thought it would be good practice, so I volunteered to interview the patient solo.
I was significantly more nervous about being observed than I thought I would be, and could feel my hands shaking. The patient had an incredibly complex history, and I wanted to do a good job, so I took copious notes to try to keep track of the details of their many issues. I realized that in an effort to understand the patients multiple issues, I had deviated from the usual interview structure, and skipped a few important questions. I looked back at my professor to see if she had any feedback. I was nervous and could tell that the interview was not going well. My professor was frowning. I wasn't sure how to interpret that, but I figured the worst thing would be to miss an important piece of information, so I asked the patient more questions, I asked the questions that I had skipped, and attempted to gather as much information as possible. It was the worst interview I had ever done, but I felt that I got all the necessary information.
After the interview, my professor took me aside and said "That was terrible. How have you even made it this far?" She explained that I went too long, was disorganized, and that she didn't understand how I had been allowed to pass my courses related to patient care. I tried to apologize, and explain that I was extremely nervous, and that this wasn't typical for me. I agreed that I was disorganized, said that was something I was practicing to try to improve, and asked if she had any specific suggestions. She just kept shaking her head and saying "That was really really bad. I thought you could do this, but clearly you can't."
I was particularly hurt because she had taught a course on building empathy. I had been in a discussion group with this professor, and we has confessed our deepest fears and anxieties. This professor had a reputation for being cold, but I gradually came to trust her. I thought she had gotten a bad rap - she seemed like a shy but caring person, a good listener, and very human.
That's why I was so shocked that her feedback was so negative. I told her I was going to practice interviewing with a special eye for organization, and asked her again for specific suggestions on how I can improve.
She said that I took too many notes, and went too long. "You weren't present at all! You weren't even listening to the patient! You didn't have any empathy at all. How did you have us all fooled?"
That hurt a lot. As much as I tried to fight it, my eyes started watering. She said that I would need to be monitored closely by the faculty, and I nodded and said "I just want to improve. I'll do whatever you think will improve my performance."
That week I met with a classmate, and worked on organization and timing. I practiced with a family member. I tried to improve my performance. I think I am an empathetic person, but I practiced expressing empathy verbally.
It came time for another evaluation, and I was shitting bricks. I didn't know who would be observing me (this time behind a two way mirror), but I knew they would be watching me closely.
I interviewed the standardized patient. I did almost everything in the correct order. I payed careful attention to time. I took minimal notes. I listened to the patient and made extra sure to thank them for sharing their information, and to mirror back what they were saying so that the could correct me if I had something wrong. When they mentioned that they were in pain, I reassured them that we would do everything possible to find out what was causing it, and work to help make them comfortable. I was incredibly nervous, but I thought the interview went pretty well.
When my evaluator came out, she asked me how I thought I did. I said I thought I did okay, but mentioned the things I did out of order, and mentioned a few small steps I had skipped. She said that she had been asked to watch me by the other professor, but that she was surprised at how well I did, that my performance didn't fit the description given to her by the first professor at all. I thanked her, but I was really embarrassed.
She asked why I thought I had done so poorly the first time, and I said that I had been very nervous. She asked if the hospital setting had made me nervous, and even though I didn't think that was the main problem, I said yes. I didn't want to say that I get anxious about being scruitinized, because there will be many more instances in my academic career when I will be observed and critiqued. She asked why hospitals made me nervous, and I said I was worried about saying something insensitive to a patient who is coping with a lot of pain or a life threatening illness. I told her that I had a family member who had been hospitalized, and had complained about the way they had been treated by staff. I told her that I didn't want to cause patients any more stress than necessary.
She said that I was very different from she had expected from the other patient's email. I was so incredibly embarrassed at this point that I started tearing up again. She seemed concerned and said that if I cry that easily, I was in for a rough couple of years as I advanced in my training. She suggested that I seek therapy to work through my issues. I nodded, but didn't tell her that I am already seeing a therapist regularly.
I recently got an email from the first professor saying that to pass the class, I will need to meet with the school psychiatrist to "assess my attitudes and emotional well being."
So here's the rub. I have seen the school psychiatrist, and I really don't want to see her again for a number of reasons, including that I don't trust that the sessions are confidential. During sessions, she would leave my prescriptions in the common copy machine that she shares with the first professor as well as a dozen other administrators. One time she left my prescriptions there for for over 30 min, even though I asked if she could move them someone more private.
She has also accused me of lying. During a session last year, I asked for my usual prescription of 150mg of an antidepressant. She said that according to her notes said I was taking 300 mg. I said that I had only ever taken 150 mg, and that she had prescribed me 150 mg in the past, but she said I was trying to exert control and wrote me a script for 300 mg. I thought I might have been mistaken about the, but when I got home I saw that my previous prescription was indeed for 150mg. I knew it would be very hard to get another appointment with her, so I took the 300 mg and was loopy for a month until I saw her again. When I saw her, I tried to explain I was having terrible side effects, and that 300 mg was too much. She said I was perseverating and paranoid. I told her I felt terrible, and asked her to look at her notes to see that she had prescribed me 150 mg in the past. She looked at her notes, and saw that I had indeed been taking 150 mg. She asked me: "Why did you tell me you were taking 300 mg?" I said "I didn't." She rolled her eyes, and I decided not to argue with her.
So I have to schedule an appointment to talk to her about my emotional well-being and I really don't want to. Since the middle of last year I have been seeing a different psychiatrist who is not affiliated with my school, and he has been treating me for Generalized Anxiety Disorder. I haven't yet told him about this situation because I have been away on break, but I will see him again next week. I don't know what to do. It seems like I should suck it up and see the school psychiatrist, but at this point I feel like anything I say can, and will be used against me.
What do you suggest I do?
If you want to contact me, my temporary email is mouse_anon@yahoo.com
I think you should write a letter to the first professor thanking her for her feedback (yeah, she was a bitch, but that's how she is, apparently, and she did provide some feedback that was relevant to your work) and letting her know that you are working with a therapist on these issues. If she pushes back on why it's not the school psychiatrist, reiterate that you are choosing to work with someone else you feel more comfortable with. If she continues to push on you using the school psychiatrist, go over her head on this issue.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 1:57 PM on January 14, 2011 [9 favorites]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 1:57 PM on January 14, 2011 [9 favorites]
Yes, go, but remain calm. You did a nice job with your second interview, so that professor isn't going to confirm the negativity of your first professor. Take the same calm and careful approach to the psychiatrist visit. Be friendly, but remember that how much you disclose is entirely up to you. I wouldn't make this a confessional session: I'd just be calm, well balanced, and self contained.
posted by bearwife at 1:57 PM on January 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by bearwife at 1:57 PM on January 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Seconding cnanderson. It is time to go over the top on both the professor and the psychiatrist. Assuming you are in the US, the psychiatrist is violating HIPAA guidelines by leaving confidential patient information in public areas (i.e. prescription in a common copy machine). If that psychiatrist has been discussing this with your professor without your consent, that risk for them losing their license. This is serious.
Also: tell your psychiatrist that you have been seeing the entire thing. Print this off and hand it to him.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 2:04 PM on January 14, 2011 [14 favorites]
Also: tell your psychiatrist that you have been seeing the entire thing. Print this off and hand it to him.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 2:04 PM on January 14, 2011 [14 favorites]
Go see your regular therapist next week and tell him what's been going on. The situation here sounds like it is certainly related to your general anxiety, with a healthy side of an incredibly uncaring jerk of a professor making matters worse. Since it seems you do have to go see the school psychiatrist, make an appointment, but don't schedule it until after you see your regular therapist, who it seems like you trust. Together, you and your therapist can talk through this and essentially rehearse what you'll say to the school psychiatrist, or perhaps your therapist can call him and you won't have to see him at all.
Remember, you do have to go see the school psychiatrist, but you don't have to tell her anything you don't want to. What about saying "I cried because I was embarrassed to be the object of such scorn and ridicule by my professor" or something to that effect? I would also be sure to explicitly discuss confidentiality with the psychiatrist at the beginning of the session, especially with regard to exactly what information she will share with the professor.
posted by zachlipton at 2:04 PM on January 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
Remember, you do have to go see the school psychiatrist, but you don't have to tell her anything you don't want to. What about saying "I cried because I was embarrassed to be the object of such scorn and ridicule by my professor" or something to that effect? I would also be sure to explicitly discuss confidentiality with the psychiatrist at the beginning of the session, especially with regard to exactly what information she will share with the professor.
posted by zachlipton at 2:04 PM on January 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
There is a risk for them of losing their license.
Me fail English? Unpossible!
posted by Mister Fabulous at 2:05 PM on January 14, 2011
Me fail English? Unpossible!
posted by Mister Fabulous at 2:05 PM on January 14, 2011
What do you think you should do? What courses of action are you considering?
You should definitely talk to your own preferred psychiatrist first about all of this, and ask him if he can talk to the professor about his certifying whatever she wants the school psychiatrist to certify about you. Even if you're going to have a psychiatric evaluation as part of passing the class, I don't see any strong reason why the professor should care what psychiatrist you speak to, and you obviously feel strongly about it (as the profusion of needless detail here attests).
It's also quite likely that making a grade contingent on a psychiatric visit violates university policy — frankly, I can't imagine this being kosher. You might talk to a dean, student advocate, or ombudsperson about this if you want to press the issue rather than seeing the school psychiatrist again.
But there's definitely a larger issue here. It sounds like you're having a very hard time with your studies and should probably consider taking some time off, and possibly also think about moving to another department or institution or course of study that won't trigger your anxieties so badly. Your interactions with both this professor and the school psychiatrist are bad and unlikely to improve. You should think hard, and maybe talk to some trusted advisors, caring family/friends, and/or therapists, about whether this school and course of study (and this future profession?) are the right ones for you. It sounds to me, just from this question, like they aren't, because you're going to continue having serious problems with anxiety and high-pressure situations there. Maybe it's time to find a program and/or career that won't make you feel this way.
posted by RogerB at 2:07 PM on January 14, 2011 [4 favorites]
You should definitely talk to your own preferred psychiatrist first about all of this, and ask him if he can talk to the professor about his certifying whatever she wants the school psychiatrist to certify about you. Even if you're going to have a psychiatric evaluation as part of passing the class, I don't see any strong reason why the professor should care what psychiatrist you speak to, and you obviously feel strongly about it (as the profusion of needless detail here attests).
It's also quite likely that making a grade contingent on a psychiatric visit violates university policy — frankly, I can't imagine this being kosher. You might talk to a dean, student advocate, or ombudsperson about this if you want to press the issue rather than seeing the school psychiatrist again.
But there's definitely a larger issue here. It sounds like you're having a very hard time with your studies and should probably consider taking some time off, and possibly also think about moving to another department or institution or course of study that won't trigger your anxieties so badly. Your interactions with both this professor and the school psychiatrist are bad and unlikely to improve. You should think hard, and maybe talk to some trusted advisors, caring family/friends, and/or therapists, about whether this school and course of study (and this future profession?) are the right ones for you. It sounds to me, just from this question, like they aren't, because you're going to continue having serious problems with anxiety and high-pressure situations there. Maybe it's time to find a program and/or career that won't make you feel this way.
posted by RogerB at 2:07 PM on January 14, 2011 [4 favorites]
Yeah, I would view going to the psychiatrist as an annoying step to appease the (honestly, really insensitive, that wasn't Constructive criticism) professor. I would feel free to... emphasize the positive while talking with the psychiatrist, and I would take copious notes afterward on what was said. Trust but document, in case you need to go to the dean of students later. You have good evidence that you're doing the right thing, add to it just in case.
posted by ldthomps at 2:08 PM on January 14, 2011
posted by ldthomps at 2:08 PM on January 14, 2011
This is like something out of Gaslight. With the exception of the second evaluator, I'd say you are stuck between two nasty people who have their own issues. I think both of them should be the ones being evaluated, not you.
Why would your professor require you to see the school psychiatrist when by law prof is not allowed to get any information under HIPAA? If the psychiatrist can't tell her anything, what's the point? So that you feel better about yourself? Sounds like you are doing that by seeing another (less wackadoodle) person.
My gut reaction is to push back - NICELY - to prof and say hey, thanks for your suggestion, I am seeing a psychiatrist (just not crazy psycho school one) and I will make it a point to discuss this issue with that person.
If she raises more of a stink, I would kindly remind her of HIPAA regulations and the fact that even if you did see wackadoodle school psychiatrist, she's prohibited from sharing anything (or damn well should be).
Good luck!
posted by Leezie at 2:09 PM on January 14, 2011 [8 favorites]
Why would your professor require you to see the school psychiatrist when by law prof is not allowed to get any information under HIPAA? If the psychiatrist can't tell her anything, what's the point? So that you feel better about yourself? Sounds like you are doing that by seeing another (less wackadoodle) person.
My gut reaction is to push back - NICELY - to prof and say hey, thanks for your suggestion, I am seeing a psychiatrist (just not crazy psycho school one) and I will make it a point to discuss this issue with that person.
If she raises more of a stink, I would kindly remind her of HIPAA regulations and the fact that even if you did see wackadoodle school psychiatrist, she's prohibited from sharing anything (or damn well should be).
Good luck!
posted by Leezie at 2:09 PM on January 14, 2011 [8 favorites]
Yep, I think it's dean of students time. Just to explain your situation and ask for guidance about how to engage and resolve this issue (of seeing the psychiatrist, of how to best professionally interact with the professor, etc.). A basic question is whether or not a professor can require a student to see a mental health professional to pass your class at your institution.
I find that some professors know neither the tone or format around giving constructive and corrective feedback. And they have been known to overstep boundaries around what is and is not within their power in regards to students. So it isn't unreasonable to go to another source to confirm what is actually required here.
Sorry you're going through this. It really sucks.
posted by anitanita at 2:11 PM on January 14, 2011 [4 favorites]
I find that some professors know neither the tone or format around giving constructive and corrective feedback. And they have been known to overstep boundaries around what is and is not within their power in regards to students. So it isn't unreasonable to go to another source to confirm what is actually required here.
Sorry you're going through this. It really sucks.
posted by anitanita at 2:11 PM on January 14, 2011 [4 favorites]
I'm not certain how your school works, but I cannot imagine a scenario at a traditional college or university where your professor has the right to demand you seek medical care before granting you academic credit.
posted by Adam_S at 2:13 PM on January 14, 2011 [6 favorites]
posted by Adam_S at 2:13 PM on January 14, 2011 [6 favorites]
These two both sound nuts to me! Honestly, it almost sounds like to me that they are trying to set you up to take some kind of fall for something, but I can't imagine what that would be.
When your first professor was berating you after your interview, I was waiting for the point that she took you aside and told you that you were a subject in some kind of wacky psychological experiment she was doing.
I wouldn't go to see the school psychiatrist if I were you. For one thing, what goes on between you and a psychiatrist is absolutely none of her business. For another, the psychiatrist sounds completely unprofessional and nuts herself. And finally, whatever this professor is trying to "prove" about you, your going to a psychiatrist will only give her more ammo no matter what the psychiatrist says.
I think you need to transfer out of this professor's class into another section if you can and get as far away from her as you can ASAP. Find a high level admin, like the Dean of Students, to be on your side. If the Dean of Students is unhelpful, keep looking until you find someone who is helpful and sympathetic.
posted by Ashley801 at 2:19 PM on January 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
When your first professor was berating you after your interview, I was waiting for the point that she took you aside and told you that you were a subject in some kind of wacky psychological experiment she was doing.
I wouldn't go to see the school psychiatrist if I were you. For one thing, what goes on between you and a psychiatrist is absolutely none of her business. For another, the psychiatrist sounds completely unprofessional and nuts herself. And finally, whatever this professor is trying to "prove" about you, your going to a psychiatrist will only give her more ammo no matter what the psychiatrist says.
I think you need to transfer out of this professor's class into another section if you can and get as far away from her as you can ASAP. Find a high level admin, like the Dean of Students, to be on your side. If the Dean of Students is unhelpful, keep looking until you find someone who is helpful and sympathetic.
posted by Ashley801 at 2:19 PM on January 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
You've made your case quite well right here.
Copy the text of this question and email it to the dean, your academic advisor, the department head, and these individuals' direct supervisiors.
posted by Sys Rq at 2:22 PM on January 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Copy the text of this question and email it to the dean, your academic advisor, the department head, and these individuals' direct supervisiors.
posted by Sys Rq at 2:22 PM on January 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Just -- be prepared that if you go to their direct supervisors, the direct supervisors could push back hard on you, *especially* if they do see that wrong was done, in an effort to cover their own butts.
I once went to the head of my university's health clinic to make them aware of a patten of problems I'd had with one nurse practitioner -- she seemed forgetful and discombobulated to the point where I was concerned - writing prescriptions in incorrect amounts, writing prescriptions for the completely wrong thing, a bunch of things along those lines. I didn't come in in a hostile way, more like "hey, this is something you might want to be aware of." The degree to which this person pushed back on me was *insane,* looking for any way that all these incidents were actually my fault. So, just be prepared for the fact that something like that might happen, and don't let it stop you from looking for help with this.
posted by Ashley801 at 2:29 PM on January 14, 2011 [3 favorites]
I once went to the head of my university's health clinic to make them aware of a patten of problems I'd had with one nurse practitioner -- she seemed forgetful and discombobulated to the point where I was concerned - writing prescriptions in incorrect amounts, writing prescriptions for the completely wrong thing, a bunch of things along those lines. I didn't come in in a hostile way, more like "hey, this is something you might want to be aware of." The degree to which this person pushed back on me was *insane,* looking for any way that all these incidents were actually my fault. So, just be prepared for the fact that something like that might happen, and don't let it stop you from looking for help with this.
posted by Ashley801 at 2:29 PM on January 14, 2011 [3 favorites]
"That was terrible. How have you even made it this far?"
You weren't present at all! You weren't even listening to the patient! You didn't have any empathy at all. How did you have us all fooled?"
This is the professor that teaches an *empathy* course? Go over her head.
posted by notsnot at 2:32 PM on January 14, 2011 [10 favorites]
You weren't present at all! You weren't even listening to the patient! You didn't have any empathy at all. How did you have us all fooled?"
This is the professor that teaches an *empathy* course? Go over her head.
posted by notsnot at 2:32 PM on January 14, 2011 [10 favorites]
Professors and school psychiatrists are people too - which means that a lot of them suck.
You can not let people who suck dictate your life. Fight back. Go to every Dean that will listen to you. Go to one of the university guidance counsellors. Force someone at the school to listen to you.
posted by Flood at 2:41 PM on January 14, 2011
You can not let people who suck dictate your life. Fight back. Go to every Dean that will listen to you. Go to one of the university guidance counsellors. Force someone at the school to listen to you.
posted by Flood at 2:41 PM on January 14, 2011
You can not let people who suck dictate your life. Fight back. Go to every Dean that will listen to you. Go to one of the university guidance counsellors. Force someone at the school to listen to you.
But doing this is letting them dictate your life too: you're going through a huge amount of trouble to complain about them and try to make someone care. Yes there are times when someone needs to speak up, and perhaps this is one of those times, but generally, not letting it bother you is a saner alternative. That doesn't mean letting them win, it means realizing that your self-worth is completely unrelated to what this moronic professor thinks of you. You have enough things to worry about without having to stress out over working your way through the administration's hierarchy.
posted by zachlipton at 2:49 PM on January 14, 2011
But doing this is letting them dictate your life too: you're going through a huge amount of trouble to complain about them and try to make someone care. Yes there are times when someone needs to speak up, and perhaps this is one of those times, but generally, not letting it bother you is a saner alternative. That doesn't mean letting them win, it means realizing that your self-worth is completely unrelated to what this moronic professor thinks of you. You have enough things to worry about without having to stress out over working your way through the administration's hierarchy.
posted by zachlipton at 2:49 PM on January 14, 2011
I'd actually think twice about going to the Dean of Students. Schools are like any other institution, they tend to protect those already in power. In this case that means your professor and the psychiatrist. Many sins are covered under "academic freedom." Further, right now I imagine all colleges and universities are having meetings to discuss what to do with "troubled" students, in the wake of the shooting in AZ. Nothing you've described is the basis for any kind of concern in that arena, but that doesn't mean it won't be on the mind of an administrator.
The other path is unsavory, but may get you over this hump with less trouble. That's going to the psychiatrist and calmly and rationally explaining that you were nervous, really flubbed it, and you've been working hard to address the issues your professor raised. The most troubling part of this story is that the second evaluator had heard so much bad stuff about you. You can be sure the psychiatrist has as well, and you need to be prepared to treat it as a hostile interview. Prepare for it, ask your regular shrink or doctor for a beta blocker to deal with the anxiety, maybe say you'll be doing a huge presentation, and just get through it.
If the interview goes wrong, then there will be time for a fight. You've got this out on the internet, you have some corroboration for your story. The trouble with going to the mat is that it's unlikely to result in a good longterm outcome. You'll likely have to deal with these people again, and they will resent you. Hence, standing up for yourself forcefully, which going to the Dean will be, should be a resort weighed against the likelihood that even if the Dean takes your side, the situation as a whole will deteriorate.
posted by OmieWise at 2:52 PM on January 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
The other path is unsavory, but may get you over this hump with less trouble. That's going to the psychiatrist and calmly and rationally explaining that you were nervous, really flubbed it, and you've been working hard to address the issues your professor raised. The most troubling part of this story is that the second evaluator had heard so much bad stuff about you. You can be sure the psychiatrist has as well, and you need to be prepared to treat it as a hostile interview. Prepare for it, ask your regular shrink or doctor for a beta blocker to deal with the anxiety, maybe say you'll be doing a huge presentation, and just get through it.
If the interview goes wrong, then there will be time for a fight. You've got this out on the internet, you have some corroboration for your story. The trouble with going to the mat is that it's unlikely to result in a good longterm outcome. You'll likely have to deal with these people again, and they will resent you. Hence, standing up for yourself forcefully, which going to the Dean will be, should be a resort weighed against the likelihood that even if the Dean takes your side, the situation as a whole will deteriorate.
posted by OmieWise at 2:52 PM on January 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
*what I meant was, tell you regular doc you're doing a big presentation when asking for the beta blocker.
posted by OmieWise at 2:54 PM on January 14, 2011
posted by OmieWise at 2:54 PM on January 14, 2011
Can you transfer? Drop this class. Take a W if you can. Can you?
posted by anniecat at 2:59 PM on January 14, 2011
posted by anniecat at 2:59 PM on January 14, 2011
IAAP, albeit not in this field. Unless you're in a discipline in which "see the school psychiatrist on command" is accepted practice (and/or are not in the USA), your first professor has violated all sorts of standard regs up the wazoo. Suggesting that a student see the SP if they are having serious emotional issues is one thing; requiring them to do so is another plate of beans entirely. Refuse and complain.
However, speaking as someone who is also in a department-level administrative position, please ascertain the chain of command before filing a complaint. If you try to jump several rungs in the bureaucratic ladder, all that will happen is that you'll be bumped down to the proper starting point--except that the starting point will now be ticked that you went over their head. The most likely place to begin for your prof is with the department chair.
posted by thomas j wise at 3:01 PM on January 14, 2011 [9 favorites]
However, speaking as someone who is also in a department-level administrative position, please ascertain the chain of command before filing a complaint. If you try to jump several rungs in the bureaucratic ladder, all that will happen is that you'll be bumped down to the proper starting point--except that the starting point will now be ticked that you went over their head. The most likely place to begin for your prof is with the department chair.
posted by thomas j wise at 3:01 PM on January 14, 2011 [9 favorites]
I'd actually think twice about going to the Dean of Students. Schools are like any other institution, they tend to protect those already in power. In this case that means your professor and the psychiatrist.
I agree with this. They protect their own and may not believe you, and may force you out. Be careful. Try to transfer out and to drop that class with a W. Later you can say there was a scheduling conflict with work or whatever, or whatever other excuse.
posted by anniecat at 3:02 PM on January 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
I agree with this. They protect their own and may not believe you, and may force you out. Be careful. Try to transfer out and to drop that class with a W. Later you can say there was a scheduling conflict with work or whatever, or whatever other excuse.
posted by anniecat at 3:02 PM on January 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Your professor sounds like a class A bitch, and the school shrink sounds like a privacy nightmare. I'm very heartily n'thing taking this up with the dean of students, via a letter and a personal meeting.
And do try your best to be calm and stoic during the meetings. I stay on a pretty even keel most of the time, but in situations like this (where I feel I'm being personally and unfairly called out), tempers can flare, and I can start tearing up (even if I'm not feeling sad--just excited/anxious). Something that might help you is to write out a rough script to practice: what you will say and possible reactions from the dean. If you've prepped yourself mentally beforehand for anything that may come your way, you'll be better able to roll with the punches.
Good luck.
posted by phunniemee at 3:07 PM on January 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
And do try your best to be calm and stoic during the meetings. I stay on a pretty even keel most of the time, but in situations like this (where I feel I'm being personally and unfairly called out), tempers can flare, and I can start tearing up (even if I'm not feeling sad--just excited/anxious). Something that might help you is to write out a rough script to practice: what you will say and possible reactions from the dean. If you've prepped yourself mentally beforehand for anything that may come your way, you'll be better able to roll with the punches.
Good luck.
posted by phunniemee at 3:07 PM on January 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Obviously, many institutions are different - but going to the dean of student's office is not "going over" a professor's head. The direct boss of most professors will be the provost in most institutions, I think. Student affairs offices (like the dean of students) should be a parallel branch in the college-wide org chart. I would wager that most universities' offices of student affairs want to encourage students to come to them for any number of issues that would affect the community - even relatively minor ones (though your situation certain qualifies as non-minor). You shouldn't feel intimidated or scared away from using this resource.
posted by cnanderson at 3:16 PM on January 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by cnanderson at 3:16 PM on January 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
I would be very concerned about seeing the school psychiatrist. I do not think this sounds right (I am not in the US, y'all may have ways of doing things).
Talk to your own therapist. Take this post with you.
Talk to your departmental advisor or the head of graduate/undergraduate studies in your department or the head of department or the dean of students (depending on which of those exist and their personalities). Take this post with you (no need to actually share it though).
Explain that you do not have underlying issues related to taking this course, you were simply nervous when being assessed (which is completely normal and understandable - if it's a feature of your chosen profession, you'll get used to it).
If you can stay in your major without seeing this school psychiatrist, you should probably do so.
If you decide to see this psychiatrist you should definitely assume that it will be used against you. Ask your own therapist for tips.
FWIW your professor sounds like they wouldn't know empathy if it hit them over the head.
posted by plonkee at 3:34 PM on January 14, 2011
Talk to your own therapist. Take this post with you.
Talk to your departmental advisor or the head of graduate/undergraduate studies in your department or the head of department or the dean of students (depending on which of those exist and their personalities). Take this post with you (no need to actually share it though).
Explain that you do not have underlying issues related to taking this course, you were simply nervous when being assessed (which is completely normal and understandable - if it's a feature of your chosen profession, you'll get used to it).
If you can stay in your major without seeing this school psychiatrist, you should probably do so.
If you decide to see this psychiatrist you should definitely assume that it will be used against you. Ask your own therapist for tips.
FWIW your professor sounds like they wouldn't know empathy if it hit them over the head.
posted by plonkee at 3:34 PM on January 14, 2011
I mean that y'all might do things differently in the US. I'm not sure whether my university even had it's own psychologist, let alone referred students there to pass a course.
posted by plonkee at 3:48 PM on January 14, 2011
posted by plonkee at 3:48 PM on January 14, 2011
You have two separate problems. The psychiatrist being the much bigger problem. DOUBLING your medication and then blaming you for it is just plain unacceptable. I cannot believe that was done to you, and then you were blamed for it. That borders on unethical. You *really* need to get a different doctor. Without stable mental health your academic performance will certainly suffer.
The comments about taking it up with the Dean are worth considering. From the perspective that YOU need help. Not that the psychiatrist or the professor are doing something wrong (which they may well be). Approach it from the standpoint of seeking help for YOU. This is likely to be more productive in getting things sorted out. Asking someone to help you is likely to be less of a problem than demanding others be punished for their performance. Let the Dean put 2+2 together. Your goal is YOU and your success on this academic path.
posted by wkearney99 at 4:16 PM on January 14, 2011
The comments about taking it up with the Dean are worth considering. From the perspective that YOU need help. Not that the psychiatrist or the professor are doing something wrong (which they may well be). Approach it from the standpoint of seeking help for YOU. This is likely to be more productive in getting things sorted out. Asking someone to help you is likely to be less of a problem than demanding others be punished for their performance. Let the Dean put 2+2 together. Your goal is YOU and your success on this academic path.
posted by wkearney99 at 4:16 PM on January 14, 2011
This all sounds deeply wrong. You are student, not an expert and it is normal to be anxious under the circumstances you described. Agreeing with others here, do not see the school psychiatrist. Speak to your own therapist and to the Dean or Department head or whomever is over that awful professor to find out if she can even require you to see the psychiatrist as a condition for passing the course. She sounds completely out of line, lacking in empathy, and out to get you for some reason.
Let us know what happens.
posted by mermayd at 4:29 PM on January 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
Let us know what happens.
posted by mermayd at 4:29 PM on January 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
When complaining about a professor, I will *always* recommend getting testimonies from other people willing to go on record. If they are behaving that egregiously there must be other people with stories to tell. Shake the rumor tree until things start falling out, then follow up. It is easy to be written off as a lone malcontent when you are alone. A clipboard full of names & phone numbers of people willing to admit to similar experiences is a powerful tool.
posted by Ys at 5:06 PM on January 14, 2011
posted by Ys at 5:06 PM on January 14, 2011
First, the department chair then the dean. Do you have anything in writing from your professor stating that your grade was contingent on seeing the psychiatrist?
If not, then email her verifying her request. If she makes the same demand well you have options including the offer of your own therapist. If she still wants you to see the school psychiatrist even after you explain that you are uncomfortable with that person you have a more solid complaint of unreasonable demands two ways.
posted by jadepearl at 5:45 PM on January 14, 2011
If not, then email her verifying her request. If she makes the same demand well you have options including the offer of your own therapist. If she still wants you to see the school psychiatrist even after you explain that you are uncomfortable with that person you have a more solid complaint of unreasonable demands two ways.
posted by jadepearl at 5:45 PM on January 14, 2011
The professor is bullying you, but probably believes that she's doing you a favor by toughening you up. I'm not excusing her behavior or her ridiculous comments. I feel that this sort of teaching method is often basically the lazy way out, but it isn't uncommon, and you're probably going to see it again.
So, keep your cool, and don't let her get under your skin. Because THAT will just support her point that you're not cut out for this program.
And certainly don't beat yourself up about the first patient interview that didn't go well. You're there to learn, and there is absofuckinglutely no shame in not being terrific at something right out of the gate. You got a tough lesson in a problem area, you worked hard on it, and you improved.
I suspect that requiring you to see the school psychiatrist as a condition of passing the class is not enforceable unless there are a whole host of very unstable behaviors that you've left out of your question. I can see playing this either of these ways, both of which may be easier to pull off if you temporarily adopt the mindset that the psychiatrist business was a suggestion from the professor. (I.e, the alternate universe reasonable scenario.)
* Call to try to schedule an appointment but not be able to find a mutually agreeable time with the psychiatrist due to your other commitments (which are no-one else's business.) If the prof actually tries to prevent giving you a grade, THEN you can take it up with the Dean. Don't talk any trash about her to the Dean or complain about how you've been wronged. Explain that you understand the professor's concerns after your terrible, frustrating episode, but that you resolved the problem by seeking guidance elsewhere.
* Go to the psychiatrist, politely and earnestly jump through the hoop, while not saying anything that you wouldn't want on the front page of the Times. Don't demonstrate any grudge over her lazy fuckup with your meds. Say all of the appropriate things to give the impression that you had a bad day with the prof in one circumstance but hey, who doesn't, and no, you're not bothered or mad or upset.
Write out your talking points in advance either way, so that you've got the voice of reason in your head.
posted by desuetude at 5:46 PM on January 14, 2011
So, keep your cool, and don't let her get under your skin. Because THAT will just support her point that you're not cut out for this program.
And certainly don't beat yourself up about the first patient interview that didn't go well. You're there to learn, and there is absofuckinglutely no shame in not being terrific at something right out of the gate. You got a tough lesson in a problem area, you worked hard on it, and you improved.
I suspect that requiring you to see the school psychiatrist as a condition of passing the class is not enforceable unless there are a whole host of very unstable behaviors that you've left out of your question. I can see playing this either of these ways, both of which may be easier to pull off if you temporarily adopt the mindset that the psychiatrist business was a suggestion from the professor. (I.e, the alternate universe reasonable scenario.)
* Call to try to schedule an appointment but not be able to find a mutually agreeable time with the psychiatrist due to your other commitments (which are no-one else's business.) If the prof actually tries to prevent giving you a grade, THEN you can take it up with the Dean. Don't talk any trash about her to the Dean or complain about how you've been wronged. Explain that you understand the professor's concerns after your terrible, frustrating episode, but that you resolved the problem by seeking guidance elsewhere.
* Go to the psychiatrist, politely and earnestly jump through the hoop, while not saying anything that you wouldn't want on the front page of the Times. Don't demonstrate any grudge over her lazy fuckup with your meds. Say all of the appropriate things to give the impression that you had a bad day with the prof in one circumstance but hey, who doesn't, and no, you're not bothered or mad or upset.
Write out your talking points in advance either way, so that you've got the voice of reason in your head.
posted by desuetude at 5:46 PM on January 14, 2011
Seconding the first three lines of Mermayd. From my experience, many professionals in the therapy field have some unusual mannerisms and ideas - some positive, some not. If you are a sensitive person then you may have to practice more than someone who is not. But, it's not a reason to give up on your career goals. You are a beginner, and beginners learn the ropes, eventually becoming professionals. (Be your own tiger mother?)
Your pharmacist should be able to provide you with a history of your medication. This might be a good thing to have documented. The pharmacist can often monitor unusual changes directly with the psychiatrist.
Be strong, think of yourself as strong, and go overcome this.
We're all on your side.
posted by Leah at 5:50 PM on January 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Your pharmacist should be able to provide you with a history of your medication. This might be a good thing to have documented. The pharmacist can often monitor unusual changes directly with the psychiatrist.
Be strong, think of yourself as strong, and go overcome this.
We're all on your side.
posted by Leah at 5:50 PM on January 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
I am also a professor, not in your field, and I literally sat here with my jaw hanging open as you related the outrageously inappropriate and intrusive behavior of your professor. As others have noted, if a student came to me with a problem or appeared to be seriously distressed, I might let her/him know about the availability of counseling services. Never in a billion years could any prof at my school get away with requiring a student to get medical evaluation or treatment in order to pass a course.
If a student appears to be seriously ill or a danger to self or others, my college -- and I'm sure yours -- has a defined procedure a prof can initiate to determine if intervention is needed, but that would never be unilateral or tied to someone's academic performance. And all this because you had an attack of performance anxiety during an evaluation that would cause many beginners to react the same way? Ridiculous.
I wouldn't volunteer the information to her that you have your own therapist because your private medical situation is none of this prof's business. Do try to get the professor to confirm the "therapy requirement" either in writing via e-mail or orally in the presence of others. Then contact her department office or check the school's website to find out the standard procedure for reporting a problem you're having with a prof.
Yes, university officials are protective of faculty in part because we receive a lot of frivolous complaints, but there have been plenty of times that my department head and dean have taken a very well-meaning, honorable prof aside and said, "Um, this requirement in your syllabus (or this thing you told a student to do)?" You can't legally do that, so stop." And the stringent terms of HIPAA regulations look like nothing compared to FERPA, which we are constantly reminded to be careful of.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:20 PM on January 14, 2011 [8 favorites]
If a student appears to be seriously ill or a danger to self or others, my college -- and I'm sure yours -- has a defined procedure a prof can initiate to determine if intervention is needed, but that would never be unilateral or tied to someone's academic performance. And all this because you had an attack of performance anxiety during an evaluation that would cause many beginners to react the same way? Ridiculous.
I wouldn't volunteer the information to her that you have your own therapist because your private medical situation is none of this prof's business. Do try to get the professor to confirm the "therapy requirement" either in writing via e-mail or orally in the presence of others. Then contact her department office or check the school's website to find out the standard procedure for reporting a problem you're having with a prof.
Yes, university officials are protective of faculty in part because we receive a lot of frivolous complaints, but there have been plenty of times that my department head and dean have taken a very well-meaning, honorable prof aside and said, "Um, this requirement in your syllabus (or this thing you told a student to do)?" You can't legally do that, so stop." And the stringent terms of HIPAA regulations look like nothing compared to FERPA, which we are constantly reminded to be careful of.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:20 PM on January 14, 2011 [8 favorites]
I think your professor's request is reasonable, if not ethical; I mean that I can see where she is coming from. If possible, I might have a very clear conversation with her (and get it in writing) to confirm that your passing the course/program IS dependent on your meeting with a psychiatrist.
Then, I would ask if that requirement would be met by your meeting with another psychiatrist with x, y and z credentials. I wouldn't go into detail about how you've already been seeing one -- just find out how many appointments you would need to attend, what kind of documentation would be needed, and leave the meeting with that information in hand.
Some people have mentioned taking this to someone with more authority. I would hesitate to get militant about it at this stage. Instead, I might mention it to other people (professors?) in the program or at hospital, or in the counseling office -- ask, casually, if it is something that is normally done. Is there anyone in the department that you trust?
If you do need to see the school psychiatrist, I don't know. Can you just go and let the hour be taken up with non-critical discussion? Set goals at the beginning of the session and try to meet them by the end of your bout of appointments. I've gone to a lot of therapists and just talked about nothing. And it did very little for me. Try coming in with some small, non-critical issues to discuss.
For what it's worth, "I was nervous because I was being observed and I had not done something like that before" seems like a fine answer as to why you froze up -- just follow it with the explanation of what you have been doing since then and a positive observation about the future. I'm so sorry that you have been put in a position of not being able to trust your school psychiatrist.
I think you have a nice attitude and handled your professor's feedback very well! Reading this, it sounds like you are serious about pursuing your goals and also have a lot of capabilities that will serve you well in a health profession. I was impressed by how you responded and described your response. Being nervous and crying are not the worst responses to have in new, evaluational situations. Hang in there, be the person you know you are, and become the best health professional you can be.
posted by ramenopres at 6:25 PM on January 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Then, I would ask if that requirement would be met by your meeting with another psychiatrist with x, y and z credentials. I wouldn't go into detail about how you've already been seeing one -- just find out how many appointments you would need to attend, what kind of documentation would be needed, and leave the meeting with that information in hand.
Some people have mentioned taking this to someone with more authority. I would hesitate to get militant about it at this stage. Instead, I might mention it to other people (professors?) in the program or at hospital, or in the counseling office -- ask, casually, if it is something that is normally done. Is there anyone in the department that you trust?
If you do need to see the school psychiatrist, I don't know. Can you just go and let the hour be taken up with non-critical discussion? Set goals at the beginning of the session and try to meet them by the end of your bout of appointments. I've gone to a lot of therapists and just talked about nothing. And it did very little for me. Try coming in with some small, non-critical issues to discuss.
For what it's worth, "I was nervous because I was being observed and I had not done something like that before" seems like a fine answer as to why you froze up -- just follow it with the explanation of what you have been doing since then and a positive observation about the future. I'm so sorry that you have been put in a position of not being able to trust your school psychiatrist.
I think you have a nice attitude and handled your professor's feedback very well! Reading this, it sounds like you are serious about pursuing your goals and also have a lot of capabilities that will serve you well in a health profession. I was impressed by how you responded and described your response. Being nervous and crying are not the worst responses to have in new, evaluational situations. Hang in there, be the person you know you are, and become the best health professional you can be.
posted by ramenopres at 6:25 PM on January 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Personally, I would also get her request (and reasons behind it) in writing if possible, as well as a written synopsis from the second interview evaluator. If you have a meeting higher up the chain of command, having copies of those documents will put you in a slightly better power position than if you come in without any evidence. It will make it a bit more difficult for them to try to place the blame on you, as mentioned as a possibility up-thread. Also, maybe merely asking for the request in writing will make her back off entirely.
posted by thegreatfleecircus at 6:26 PM on January 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by thegreatfleecircus at 6:26 PM on January 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Oh, and I agree with your instincts in not volunteering that you have your own therapist to the evaluator. If I were you, I wouldn't offer this information to the professor, either. Certainly it's nothing to be ashamed of, but the particulars of your medical care are none of her business.
posted by desuetude at 6:56 PM on January 14, 2011
posted by desuetude at 6:56 PM on January 14, 2011
Do you have a small recording device? Use it when you talk to any of these people. I work with a lot of BSN nursing students, and they sometimes confide in me. (I'm a librarian, so I don't have any power over them in terms of grades etc.) I've heard various complaints but never, ever, anything like this. You are obviously both dedicated and very brave, don't let this all deter you from your goals.
Reach out to your most supportive family and friends, you need some hugs! If no one is nearby then pamper yourself. Go get a massage, take yourself out to a nice dinner, have a long bubble bath.
posted by mareli at 7:47 PM on January 14, 2011
Reach out to your most supportive family and friends, you need some hugs! If no one is nearby then pamper yourself. Go get a massage, take yourself out to a nice dinner, have a long bubble bath.
posted by mareli at 7:47 PM on January 14, 2011
- I don't understand why you took that medication once you confirmed the dosage was incorrect. For an entire month. With terrible side effects. Please talk this choice you made over with your therapist.
- Unless the rest of your school/program is primo grade A++, please think about transferring. Sometimes institutions or organizations take on deeply dysfunctional characteristics, and where you go to school qualifies. Sometimes being in the right environment makes all the difference. If you can't sort this out easily with the Dean of Students or whoever, don't see it as your failure, but do move on.
posted by jbenben at 7:54 PM on January 14, 2011 [4 favorites]
- Unless the rest of your school/program is primo grade A++, please think about transferring. Sometimes institutions or organizations take on deeply dysfunctional characteristics, and where you go to school qualifies. Sometimes being in the right environment makes all the difference. If you can't sort this out easily with the Dean of Students or whoever, don't see it as your failure, but do move on.
posted by jbenben at 7:54 PM on January 14, 2011 [4 favorites]
Hi, sorry, just piping in to say people have some massive misconceptions about HIPAA. The psychiatrist wouldn't be able to release anything confidential or any of the details of their meeting, but she would certainly be allowed to write a professional evaluation of the OP's functioning.
posted by namesarehard at 10:54 PM on January 14, 2011
posted by namesarehard at 10:54 PM on January 14, 2011
If it's true that going to the Dean about your issues with the school psychiatrist would cause more problems, you might just approach the Dean with "I'm already seeking care elsewhere. Can my doctor contact you to verify this in order to satisfy the professor's demand?" That way you hopefully don't have to deal with confronting anyone about the lack of professionalism in the school psychiatrist (unless you feel prepared for that battle), and the school can feel satisfied that any cause for concern is being addressed.
posted by Terriniski at 3:58 AM on January 15, 2011
posted by Terriniski at 3:58 AM on January 15, 2011
I want to second jbenben's suggestion that you look into transferring if you can't get help from the Dean of Students. I have worked at multiple health sciences schools (in the US), and your story is very shocking to me. Schools vary in their levels of function/dysfunction and no place is perfect, but your experience sounds pretty outrageous. You don't deserve to be treated like that. These people are supposed to be teaching you and helping you grow as a professional, not insulting you.
Even if you don't transfer, never take another class with this woman ever again if you can possibly avoid it. She does not sound like the kind of person who will change her mind about you.
posted by mskyle at 6:31 AM on January 15, 2011
Even if you don't transfer, never take another class with this woman ever again if you can possibly avoid it. She does not sound like the kind of person who will change her mind about you.
posted by mskyle at 6:31 AM on January 15, 2011
This is a tough situation, and you've had a lot of stress thrown at you. I've never had a prof berate me to that level before, so I don't know how I'd respond.
That said, I think I'd hold the Dean of Students / Chair of Dept option in reserve. I know a lot of people are suggesting that, but in my experience university admin likes to see that you tried contacting the prof in question first.
I think ramenopres and thegreatfleecircus have it right. If you can, approach your professor and calmly let her know: you were extremely rattled by the first observation experience but appreciate her feedback (even if you didn't) and worked very hard and showed marked improvement. You'd like to clarify her request to see the school psychiatrist (which you already have in writing, correct?) and you want to clarify that she is suggesting that she will not move you forward in the program unless you see a psychiatrist. Then let her know that you have a personal psychiatrist that you trust and you will be seeing that psychiatrist rather than the school psychiatrist.
Just to be clear: it IS outrageous to predicate your grade on visiting a school counselor. I wonder if she mis-spoke, and would re-consider given another conversation.
If she still requires you to visit the school psychiatrist and/or doesn't let you substitute your own psychiatrist, then take the nuclear Dean of Students option. You'll have a much better case.
This does require having a tough conversation with your professor, and I don't envy you that. She seems to be the type that thinks health professionals need "tough love". However, and I don't mean this to criticize your reaction, her negative feedback towards you is not by any means the worst I've heard. Particularly in the health and legal professions. There are profs who think you should be ready to handle any situation up to and including someone yelling in your face for no reason. You admit that you had a bad interview, so she did have a right to give you negative feedback.
I don't think she gave you useful feedback -- there are humane ways to give useful constructive feedback and she didn't. But -- meant with all support here -- I bet you'll run across that a lot more in the future. It's not ideal, but some profs just aren't good at giving negative feedback. My bigger concern is the jump to "you need to see the school counselor before I let you move forward" -- that's where I think she goes from "professor with a flaw shared by many other professors" to "bad professor WAY overstepping boundaries".
posted by lillygog at 6:43 AM on January 15, 2011
That said, I think I'd hold the Dean of Students / Chair of Dept option in reserve. I know a lot of people are suggesting that, but in my experience university admin likes to see that you tried contacting the prof in question first.
I think ramenopres and thegreatfleecircus have it right. If you can, approach your professor and calmly let her know: you were extremely rattled by the first observation experience but appreciate her feedback (even if you didn't) and worked very hard and showed marked improvement. You'd like to clarify her request to see the school psychiatrist (which you already have in writing, correct?) and you want to clarify that she is suggesting that she will not move you forward in the program unless you see a psychiatrist. Then let her know that you have a personal psychiatrist that you trust and you will be seeing that psychiatrist rather than the school psychiatrist.
Just to be clear: it IS outrageous to predicate your grade on visiting a school counselor. I wonder if she mis-spoke, and would re-consider given another conversation.
If she still requires you to visit the school psychiatrist and/or doesn't let you substitute your own psychiatrist, then take the nuclear Dean of Students option. You'll have a much better case.
This does require having a tough conversation with your professor, and I don't envy you that. She seems to be the type that thinks health professionals need "tough love". However, and I don't mean this to criticize your reaction, her negative feedback towards you is not by any means the worst I've heard. Particularly in the health and legal professions. There are profs who think you should be ready to handle any situation up to and including someone yelling in your face for no reason. You admit that you had a bad interview, so she did have a right to give you negative feedback.
I don't think she gave you useful feedback -- there are humane ways to give useful constructive feedback and she didn't. But -- meant with all support here -- I bet you'll run across that a lot more in the future. It's not ideal, but some profs just aren't good at giving negative feedback. My bigger concern is the jump to "you need to see the school counselor before I let you move forward" -- that's where I think she goes from "professor with a flaw shared by many other professors" to "bad professor WAY overstepping boundaries".
posted by lillygog at 6:43 AM on January 15, 2011
Hah! The first professor teaches empathy? She, like many academics I have dealt with, are full of crap. Empathy is what she should have practiced when she evaluated your performance.
It's been said, if you are not sincere (empathic) fake it. Your prof couldn't even do that.
Follow the advice (that you think best) of the people who have posted here.
Disclaimer: I have a bachelors degree in electrical engineering, and an M.Sc. and Ph.D. in psychology (experimental, not clinical psych).
One of my favourite examples of psych profs being full of crap. One was giving a talk on "attention." There were about 50 people in the audience. In the middle of his talk, he showed a slide with what he called an important/interesting website, whose address was about one mile long. Where did the attention of the audience go when that web address was posted? Why, to writing the address, not to listening to the goof speaking. A simple handout would have helped, thus aligning the prof's actions with his concepts.
posted by mbarryf at 6:48 AM on January 15, 2011
It's been said, if you are not sincere (empathic) fake it. Your prof couldn't even do that.
Follow the advice (that you think best) of the people who have posted here.
Disclaimer: I have a bachelors degree in electrical engineering, and an M.Sc. and Ph.D. in psychology (experimental, not clinical psych).
One of my favourite examples of psych profs being full of crap. One was giving a talk on "attention." There were about 50 people in the audience. In the middle of his talk, he showed a slide with what he called an important/interesting website, whose address was about one mile long. Where did the attention of the audience go when that web address was posted? Why, to writing the address, not to listening to the goof speaking. A simple handout would have helped, thus aligning the prof's actions with his concepts.
posted by mbarryf at 6:48 AM on January 15, 2011
I knew it would be very hard to get another appointment with her, so I took the 300 mg and was loopy for a month until I saw her again.
Umm.. What? Don't do that. You're not helpless and you don't have to do what she tells you, and then feel bad because of it. Surely there was something else you could have done besides take the wrong dose, which can be dangerous!
It's my impression that lots of people in the medical field are pretty adamant about being right all the time. Not in a rude way. That's just the way they are.
There's a recurring theme in your post, I notice.. You don't tell people what you really think. Why not tell them? I think it's probably fine for a student to say they are nervous when being watched by professors?
I was so incredibly embarrassed at this point that I started tearing up again. She seemed concerned and said that if I cry that easily, I was in for a rough couple of years as I advanced in my training.
This is a fair assessment though! It seems to me that the best way to get through this is to try to understand that your professors really do want you to succeed. They want to do what's best to help you successfully complete the program. It looks terrible for them if their students don't do well. But professionally, if they think certain steps are needed before you can pass a class, that's how they feel. They definitely do not want you to fail any classes but if you're not ready to advance, they can't let you advance. They don't want to have students working with patients who are not up to the job - the consequences are pretty serious after all! I'm just saying, if your professor feels you should see the school psychiatrist, you should go. You don't have to tell the psychiatrist everything, but be honest about what you do say - Tell the psychiatrist you were nervous about doing a solo interview, because no one else in the class had done one, and because you really respect your professor and wanted to do a good job. And you took steps to improve and did well and were less nervous on the second interview.
After all, you did the right thing as a student, didn't you? You had a tough time at the first one, listened when told what needed to be improved, made the improvements and worked on it, and did well the second time. I think in general it'll be easier if you do what your professors tell you to do, which includes seeing the psychiatrist with the goal of reassuring them that you are fine.
posted by citron at 12:00 PM on January 15, 2011
Umm.. What? Don't do that. You're not helpless and you don't have to do what she tells you, and then feel bad because of it. Surely there was something else you could have done besides take the wrong dose, which can be dangerous!
It's my impression that lots of people in the medical field are pretty adamant about being right all the time. Not in a rude way. That's just the way they are.
There's a recurring theme in your post, I notice.. You don't tell people what you really think. Why not tell them? I think it's probably fine for a student to say they are nervous when being watched by professors?
I was so incredibly embarrassed at this point that I started tearing up again. She seemed concerned and said that if I cry that easily, I was in for a rough couple of years as I advanced in my training.
This is a fair assessment though! It seems to me that the best way to get through this is to try to understand that your professors really do want you to succeed. They want to do what's best to help you successfully complete the program. It looks terrible for them if their students don't do well. But professionally, if they think certain steps are needed before you can pass a class, that's how they feel. They definitely do not want you to fail any classes but if you're not ready to advance, they can't let you advance. They don't want to have students working with patients who are not up to the job - the consequences are pretty serious after all! I'm just saying, if your professor feels you should see the school psychiatrist, you should go. You don't have to tell the psychiatrist everything, but be honest about what you do say - Tell the psychiatrist you were nervous about doing a solo interview, because no one else in the class had done one, and because you really respect your professor and wanted to do a good job. And you took steps to improve and did well and were less nervous on the second interview.
After all, you did the right thing as a student, didn't you? You had a tough time at the first one, listened when told what needed to be improved, made the improvements and worked on it, and did well the second time. I think in general it'll be easier if you do what your professors tell you to do, which includes seeing the psychiatrist with the goal of reassuring them that you are fine.
posted by citron at 12:00 PM on January 15, 2011
On second thought, I do wonder about the regulations with regard to requiring a student to see a psychiatrist as a condition of passing the class. That's weird, but I don't know how things work in your field. But I would probably look on it as a hoop I had to jump through, assume the psychiatrist was a "company man" so to speak, and tell him or her calmly that I had simply been nervous over a difficult assignment, and taken all the recommended steps to improve, as the second attempt at the assignment made clear.
posted by citron at 12:07 PM on January 15, 2011
posted by citron at 12:07 PM on January 15, 2011
Again, many institutions are different - but in every college/university I have been to it has been sufficient to visit the office of student affairs if you fall into this category: "I have concerns about my experiences as a student, I don't know what to do."
Please don't think about the dean of students' office as a "nuclear option", or someplace you can go only if you have built a "case" with secret recordings and a petition from dozens of students or whatever. Certainly you can visit if you have any of those, but you can also just go to visit office hours or to look for conflict resolution/mediation. For sure, you can also go to file a formal grievance, but if the institution is any good at all, there should be a wide spectrum of options available to you, including ones that will keep your concerns confidential. Many schools are quite aware of the stereotype that institutions only "protect their own" and as such, work diligently to ensure that they act as student advocates - often including other students as facilitators or on review boards. If there is a better place for you to go to at your institution, this office should know where to direct you.
posted by cnanderson at 3:23 PM on January 15, 2011 [2 favorites]
Please don't think about the dean of students' office as a "nuclear option", or someplace you can go only if you have built a "case" with secret recordings and a petition from dozens of students or whatever. Certainly you can visit if you have any of those, but you can also just go to visit office hours or to look for conflict resolution/mediation. For sure, you can also go to file a formal grievance, but if the institution is any good at all, there should be a wide spectrum of options available to you, including ones that will keep your concerns confidential. Many schools are quite aware of the stereotype that institutions only "protect their own" and as such, work diligently to ensure that they act as student advocates - often including other students as facilitators or on review boards. If there is a better place for you to go to at your institution, this office should know where to direct you.
posted by cnanderson at 3:23 PM on January 15, 2011 [2 favorites]
Are you my sister? She was in a grad school program which involved interaction with patients in a manner similar to what you've described. She was an excellent student and breezed through her coursework. She also has been in regular therapy for years. But when she came to working with patients as part of her practical training, she hit the wall. She too is a easy-to-tear type and learned, simply put, that even after all the course work, she was not going to be able to work in the field as she had hoped. I hate to say it but I think the call for you to undergo supplementary evaluation might be right (although the personalities and delivery might be wrong) and that you should start thinking outside the box for how you might be able to make your way in this field without patient interaction. Or at least patient interaction of a different sort, which is part of what my sister does now.
posted by Dick Paris at 4:14 PM on January 15, 2011
posted by Dick Paris at 4:14 PM on January 15, 2011
A point of clarification -- I think that the 2nd evaluator suggesting that you think about therapy is fine, especially given that you went along with the "hospital setting" explanation despite it not being the main issue. If this person is an experienced evaluator, she was probably picking up on your mixed signals and wondering what on earth was up.
Your regular professor then swooping in with a pronouncement of "therapy or else," THAT'S what's screamingly inappropriate.
I don't know if you're too eager to please, afraid of being in trouble, trying to avoid confrontation, letting insecurities get to you, or what, but there are several examples just in this one question of you being a bit of a doormat, even when it causes you harm. That's not a reasonable burden for you to take on, give yourself a break.
posted by desuetude at 10:53 PM on January 15, 2011
Your regular professor then swooping in with a pronouncement of "therapy or else," THAT'S what's screamingly inappropriate.
I don't know if you're too eager to please, afraid of being in trouble, trying to avoid confrontation, letting insecurities get to you, or what, but there are several examples just in this one question of you being a bit of a doormat, even when it causes you harm. That's not a reasonable burden for you to take on, give yourself a break.
posted by desuetude at 10:53 PM on January 15, 2011
Recommendation: don't send this post to the dean of students or anyone you decide to take this issue to. It is tempting to do that, but it will not help your case.
The best way to go about something like this is to talk only about what your issue is (not needing to see another mental health professional, because you are already seeing one), and not be accusatory towards the professor or psychiatrist unless you need to to make your point, i.e. bringing up the fact that the professor was rude to you, or that the psychiatrist accused you of lying. The problem is that when you bring up these issues, it will be your word against theirs, and then devolve into a blame game, which in the end will be unlikely to result in anything helpful for you. When you live in a small world, it does not pay to make enemies with those who have more power than you do. Although they behaved inappropriately, you probably won't be able to teach people like this a lesson in manners.
As long as you don't need to deal with either one again, I don't think you will gain anything by going further into the details. I do think it is reasonable to talk to the dean of students though because they are meant to be your advocate at this institution, and can likely resolve your issue for you, especially if you know them to be a nice/friendly person.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 1:56 AM on January 16, 2011
The best way to go about something like this is to talk only about what your issue is (not needing to see another mental health professional, because you are already seeing one), and not be accusatory towards the professor or psychiatrist unless you need to to make your point, i.e. bringing up the fact that the professor was rude to you, or that the psychiatrist accused you of lying. The problem is that when you bring up these issues, it will be your word against theirs, and then devolve into a blame game, which in the end will be unlikely to result in anything helpful for you. When you live in a small world, it does not pay to make enemies with those who have more power than you do. Although they behaved inappropriately, you probably won't be able to teach people like this a lesson in manners.
As long as you don't need to deal with either one again, I don't think you will gain anything by going further into the details. I do think it is reasonable to talk to the dean of students though because they are meant to be your advocate at this institution, and can likely resolve your issue for you, especially if you know them to be a nice/friendly person.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 1:56 AM on January 16, 2011
cnanderson makes a good statement here:
For sure, you can also go to file a formal grievance, but if the institution is any good at all, there should be a wide spectrum of options available to you, including ones that will keep your concerns confidential.
I was the person referring to visiting the Dean of Students as the "nuclear option", because there were suggestions that you go in hard (go over the prof's head, email the prof's dept chair and academic Dean, see if there are others who have complaints, record your conversations, etc.) And in cases where you bring in the dept chair and the prof's academic Dean -- in my experience -- they do want to see that you've made a good faith effort to work it out with the prof first. Remember that the prof's academic Dean is different from the Dean of Students.
So, in my opinion, it's better to approach the Dean of Students as cnanderson suggests, in a "hey, I can't figure out how to work this out with my prof, can you help me?" way, rather than "here's my formal evidence and I'm copying to the prof's dept chair and academic Dean".
I think you will be able to work this out either with the prof herself, or the Dean of Students. If you have time, email a mod so they can update this thread on how things worked out -- I hope it goes well!
posted by lillygog at 6:53 AM on January 17, 2011
For sure, you can also go to file a formal grievance, but if the institution is any good at all, there should be a wide spectrum of options available to you, including ones that will keep your concerns confidential.
I was the person referring to visiting the Dean of Students as the "nuclear option", because there were suggestions that you go in hard (go over the prof's head, email the prof's dept chair and academic Dean, see if there are others who have complaints, record your conversations, etc.) And in cases where you bring in the dept chair and the prof's academic Dean -- in my experience -- they do want to see that you've made a good faith effort to work it out with the prof first. Remember that the prof's academic Dean is different from the Dean of Students.
So, in my opinion, it's better to approach the Dean of Students as cnanderson suggests, in a "hey, I can't figure out how to work this out with my prof, can you help me?" way, rather than "here's my formal evidence and I'm copying to the prof's dept chair and academic Dean".
I think you will be able to work this out either with the prof herself, or the Dean of Students. If you have time, email a mod so they can update this thread on how things worked out -- I hope it goes well!
posted by lillygog at 6:53 AM on January 17, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by cnanderson at 1:55 PM on January 14, 2011 [21 favorites]