Please give me perspective on my marriage
January 13, 2011 6:32 PM Subscribe
Please help give me some perspective on my marriage and our situation. Long, as can be expected.
My husband and I have been married for seven years. When we got married, we agreed that I would move abroad with him to his home country. We always had the agreement that he would move back to the US if I wanted to. I managed to find a decent job there and we had a decent lifestyle but I was depressed for many years. Partly because of the climate, which was colder and darker than I am used to; partly because I missed family and friends and partly because I was bored a lot of the time there - it was a city that revolved heavily around sports and drinking, neither of which I am interested in. I tried to involve myself and find people with similar interests - I joined meetup groups and made a few friends, but I could just never find a lot to do that interested me, so I was bored and lonely most of the time.
The situation culminated for me when I switched departments in my job and got a new boss, who was a known bully in the company. I thought I would be able to work with her but I couldn't and she subtly bullied and demoralized me to the point where I was getting constant headaches and having trouble sleeping. I did not pursue this through our HR department for a number of reasons which aren't relevant here, but I did come to the conclusion after six months that no one had to work under these conditions and quit my job. I looked for a new job, but my heart wasn't in it as I had wanted to move home for years. My husband knew this but never really addressed it head on, even though I did bring it up on a lot. I decided I wasn't getting any younger, I could still start a new career in the states and I couldn't bear another winter in that country as my depression was getting worse despite anti-depressants. I told him all of this and my reasoning and said that it was time for me to move home, that if I stayed our marriage wouldn't last anyway due to my worsening mental state, and that I knew we could make it work if I moved back.
I told him I thought it would be better if I moved back first, to get established, and then he could move back and not have the pressure of having to find work right away. Plus, he needs a green card, a process which takes several months. He tends to be pessimistic, but after long talks about it, he agreed to what I was saying and was able to feel positive that we could make it work.
I do admit that the time period between me hitting rock bottom at my job, quitting my job and moving home was fairly quick, and I really regret this. It was about three months and I've told him I'm sorry to have been so abrupt, but at the time, I just remember feeling such a sense of desperation. I felt like I couldn't take one more day of being bullied at my job. Winter was coming and I couldn't bear the thought of another winter there. He says that I should have given him more time to digest it and plan for it so we could move back together and I agree and I've told him how sorry I am that it went the way it did. My state of mind at the time was not good and I just felt I couldn't even take one more day of it all. I felt on the verge of a nervous breakdown.
I have recently moved back. He is very depressed and upset. Though he sometimes is able to see things in a more positive light after we have long talks on the phone and feel much better about it, he has dark and negative thoughts about the whole thing. He blames me and has told me it's my fault he feels the way he does because i just up and left him. I remind him how depressed I was and how I was getting worse and he says that we had a good life here. He doesn't seem to understand that going on vacation a lot and having money to do stuff doesn't equal happiness. But no matter how much I try to talk to him about it, he just says - we didn't have it so bad, it's not like we were homeless or anything. As if that means I shouldn't have been depressed. He says that I left because I was being selfish - that my happiness meant more to him than how he felt. When I try to say our marriage wouldn't have lasted the way I was feeling, he just goes back to - we didn't have it so bad. I should say that for many years I was willing to live with my depression and lonlieness for the sake of him - because I loved him so much that I was willing to sacrifice my own happiness, if that makes sense. At the end of my time there, I was starting to feel pretty hopeless about my future - I couldn't see going on feeling like that for much longer, much less the rest of my life. I could see I was starting to slip, mentally, because I just could not bear the thought of living any longer like that. I knew I needed to get out of there.
Since I have moved back, I have felt much better, just being near family and friends and in a beautiful city that I've always loved with so much for me to do. I feel really positive about our future together - I think we're in an excellent position to build a happy life together here - I make decent money, he loves it here as well (he's visited extensively but never lived here), he is a social and likeable enough person that he makes friends effortlessly everywhere he goes and everyone he has met over here absolutely loves him. I know he could easily find a job based almost on charm alone.
He's so negative though, that he just sees roadblocks and downfalls everywhere. When we have talks about it, I am usually able to make him see how good it could be but I feel like I have to fight against his pessimism all the time. Part of me thinks that if he wanted to be with me enough, he would be willing to do anything to make it work, but I just don't know in this situation. I say he's being pessimistic, he says he's being realistic. Other than this, we love each other very much and want to be together. We miss each other more than anything and hate being apart.
I'm sorry if this just seems to be a big info dump. We had a bad fight over the phone tonight where he said his life had fallen apart because I've left and he sometimes feels like killing himself (don't know how serious he is with that - I've told him it's not funny to just throw the phrase around lightly). He says it's my fault because I just up and left him and I'm being selfish - my happiness matters and his doesn't. I don't even know what to think any more. I am looking for some outside perspective. Am I really being selfish? I tell him I would do anything for him but I guess that's obviously not true, because I wouldn't continue living there for him. He says that he doesn't want to move over here and be as unhappy as I was there. It should be noted that he would be able to take a year long sabbatical from his job and keep our apartment over there so if he came over and it didn't work out, he would still have a job and a place to go back to.
I guess I am just very upset about our fight right now. I've tried and tried to get him to go see a counselor or even his doctor to talk about the situation and try to sort things out in his own head but he says he WON'T go see a counselor (there is still a stigma regarding mental illness and depression there). I tell him to go see his general doctor - just SOMEONE but he won't. I am worried about him and very hurt that he continues to blame me and be so angry at me. Have I been selfish? Is there any hope for this marriage? Outside perspective would be so much appreciated.
My husband and I have been married for seven years. When we got married, we agreed that I would move abroad with him to his home country. We always had the agreement that he would move back to the US if I wanted to. I managed to find a decent job there and we had a decent lifestyle but I was depressed for many years. Partly because of the climate, which was colder and darker than I am used to; partly because I missed family and friends and partly because I was bored a lot of the time there - it was a city that revolved heavily around sports and drinking, neither of which I am interested in. I tried to involve myself and find people with similar interests - I joined meetup groups and made a few friends, but I could just never find a lot to do that interested me, so I was bored and lonely most of the time.
The situation culminated for me when I switched departments in my job and got a new boss, who was a known bully in the company. I thought I would be able to work with her but I couldn't and she subtly bullied and demoralized me to the point where I was getting constant headaches and having trouble sleeping. I did not pursue this through our HR department for a number of reasons which aren't relevant here, but I did come to the conclusion after six months that no one had to work under these conditions and quit my job. I looked for a new job, but my heart wasn't in it as I had wanted to move home for years. My husband knew this but never really addressed it head on, even though I did bring it up on a lot. I decided I wasn't getting any younger, I could still start a new career in the states and I couldn't bear another winter in that country as my depression was getting worse despite anti-depressants. I told him all of this and my reasoning and said that it was time for me to move home, that if I stayed our marriage wouldn't last anyway due to my worsening mental state, and that I knew we could make it work if I moved back.
I told him I thought it would be better if I moved back first, to get established, and then he could move back and not have the pressure of having to find work right away. Plus, he needs a green card, a process which takes several months. He tends to be pessimistic, but after long talks about it, he agreed to what I was saying and was able to feel positive that we could make it work.
I do admit that the time period between me hitting rock bottom at my job, quitting my job and moving home was fairly quick, and I really regret this. It was about three months and I've told him I'm sorry to have been so abrupt, but at the time, I just remember feeling such a sense of desperation. I felt like I couldn't take one more day of being bullied at my job. Winter was coming and I couldn't bear the thought of another winter there. He says that I should have given him more time to digest it and plan for it so we could move back together and I agree and I've told him how sorry I am that it went the way it did. My state of mind at the time was not good and I just felt I couldn't even take one more day of it all. I felt on the verge of a nervous breakdown.
I have recently moved back. He is very depressed and upset. Though he sometimes is able to see things in a more positive light after we have long talks on the phone and feel much better about it, he has dark and negative thoughts about the whole thing. He blames me and has told me it's my fault he feels the way he does because i just up and left him. I remind him how depressed I was and how I was getting worse and he says that we had a good life here. He doesn't seem to understand that going on vacation a lot and having money to do stuff doesn't equal happiness. But no matter how much I try to talk to him about it, he just says - we didn't have it so bad, it's not like we were homeless or anything. As if that means I shouldn't have been depressed. He says that I left because I was being selfish - that my happiness meant more to him than how he felt. When I try to say our marriage wouldn't have lasted the way I was feeling, he just goes back to - we didn't have it so bad. I should say that for many years I was willing to live with my depression and lonlieness for the sake of him - because I loved him so much that I was willing to sacrifice my own happiness, if that makes sense. At the end of my time there, I was starting to feel pretty hopeless about my future - I couldn't see going on feeling like that for much longer, much less the rest of my life. I could see I was starting to slip, mentally, because I just could not bear the thought of living any longer like that. I knew I needed to get out of there.
Since I have moved back, I have felt much better, just being near family and friends and in a beautiful city that I've always loved with so much for me to do. I feel really positive about our future together - I think we're in an excellent position to build a happy life together here - I make decent money, he loves it here as well (he's visited extensively but never lived here), he is a social and likeable enough person that he makes friends effortlessly everywhere he goes and everyone he has met over here absolutely loves him. I know he could easily find a job based almost on charm alone.
He's so negative though, that he just sees roadblocks and downfalls everywhere. When we have talks about it, I am usually able to make him see how good it could be but I feel like I have to fight against his pessimism all the time. Part of me thinks that if he wanted to be with me enough, he would be willing to do anything to make it work, but I just don't know in this situation. I say he's being pessimistic, he says he's being realistic. Other than this, we love each other very much and want to be together. We miss each other more than anything and hate being apart.
I'm sorry if this just seems to be a big info dump. We had a bad fight over the phone tonight where he said his life had fallen apart because I've left and he sometimes feels like killing himself (don't know how serious he is with that - I've told him it's not funny to just throw the phrase around lightly). He says it's my fault because I just up and left him and I'm being selfish - my happiness matters and his doesn't. I don't even know what to think any more. I am looking for some outside perspective. Am I really being selfish? I tell him I would do anything for him but I guess that's obviously not true, because I wouldn't continue living there for him. He says that he doesn't want to move over here and be as unhappy as I was there. It should be noted that he would be able to take a year long sabbatical from his job and keep our apartment over there so if he came over and it didn't work out, he would still have a job and a place to go back to.
I guess I am just very upset about our fight right now. I've tried and tried to get him to go see a counselor or even his doctor to talk about the situation and try to sort things out in his own head but he says he WON'T go see a counselor (there is still a stigma regarding mental illness and depression there). I tell him to go see his general doctor - just SOMEONE but he won't. I am worried about him and very hurt that he continues to blame me and be so angry at me. Have I been selfish? Is there any hope for this marriage? Outside perspective would be so much appreciated.
No, you have not been selfish, and no, I do not believe that there is hope for your marriage because you are married to someone who thrives on emotional blackmail. Being married is about compromise, balance, and equality. Your husband is having a tantrum and a pout about the fact that you are not servicing his needs above your own anymore, and that is an incredibly harsh and horrible thing to have to deal with on top of general depression. Your observations about your marriage not lasting if you continue to be depressed are totally valid, and I am so, so sorry that your husband cannot bring himself to even be remotely concerned or supportive of your needs as well as his own. If the man is immature enough to threaten suicide, he is a goner regardless of whether or not you give in to his demands. Everything you have written screams TOXIC TOXIC TOXIC. You deserve better, because you deserve to be in a partnership with someone who would do anything to make sure that you, and your marriage, are going to survive and last and be happy and functional.
Do you have access to a support system of friends and family? Rely on them, and ask them to help you get the resources you need to become independent of this man.
posted by patronuscharms at 6:54 PM on January 13, 2011 [3 favorites]
Do you have access to a support system of friends and family? Rely on them, and ask them to help you get the resources you need to become independent of this man.
posted by patronuscharms at 6:54 PM on January 13, 2011 [3 favorites]
Think about your worries and issues with moving to his home country. It was too dark and dreary, your family and friends were far away, your job was totally soul-sucking. I would guess that he is now worrying that similar sorts of problems are going to be the ones he has to face, and he's just . . . not happy about it. No friends! Weird place! Have to find a new job! Have to deal with immigration bureaucracy! That just sounds like a pile of stress. You also did kind of spring it on him, which probably is making him extra bitter about the whole thing.
However, he probably never really grasped how hard it was for you. He didn't feel the depths of your despair and desperation about that place, and so his warm feelings of his home country make him wonder what could possibly make it so bad.
I don't know about it working out or not, but it's really a situation where you know that where he is isn't working out for you, and he's afraid that where you are won't work out for him. Both of you are kind of tuning out the fact that the place you love is kind of terrifying and strange for the other person (liking a place when you visit is not nearly the same as wanting to live some place). If neither of you can deal with being in the other's country, you might have to find another third place or give up entirely.
posted by that girl at 7:01 PM on January 13, 2011 [5 favorites]
However, he probably never really grasped how hard it was for you. He didn't feel the depths of your despair and desperation about that place, and so his warm feelings of his home country make him wonder what could possibly make it so bad.
I don't know about it working out or not, but it's really a situation where you know that where he is isn't working out for you, and he's afraid that where you are won't work out for him. Both of you are kind of tuning out the fact that the place you love is kind of terrifying and strange for the other person (liking a place when you visit is not nearly the same as wanting to live some place). If neither of you can deal with being in the other's country, you might have to find another third place or give up entirely.
posted by that girl at 7:01 PM on January 13, 2011 [5 favorites]
I'm reading this great book right now called Hold Me Tight- it focuses on the idea of attachment as it relates to how we handle ourselves emotionally in love relationships. I think it could be beneficial to the two of you.
I'm not going to bag on your husband. "He is very depressed and upset."- why wouldn't he be? His wife left! Up and moved away. Is he acting properly? Of course not. The man's in pain. We don't always say the right things or act the right way when we're in pain. When you were in pain, you up and moved away! Was that the "right" decision? Maybe not, at least as far as your marriage is concerned. Thankfully, we are resilient and can recover from things far worse than this.
When was the last time the two of you saw each other in person? I think an extended in-person visit could smooth over a lot of his initial hurt and help him get inspired to get started on moving to be with you. You should go and see him ASAP.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:03 PM on January 13, 2011 [10 favorites]
I'm not going to bag on your husband. "He is very depressed and upset."- why wouldn't he be? His wife left! Up and moved away. Is he acting properly? Of course not. The man's in pain. We don't always say the right things or act the right way when we're in pain. When you were in pain, you up and moved away! Was that the "right" decision? Maybe not, at least as far as your marriage is concerned. Thankfully, we are resilient and can recover from things far worse than this.
When was the last time the two of you saw each other in person? I think an extended in-person visit could smooth over a lot of his initial hurt and help him get inspired to get started on moving to be with you. You should go and see him ASAP.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:03 PM on January 13, 2011 [10 favorites]
I'm having a really hard time believing that he just didn't see this coming, that you were getting progressively more and more depressed being there and would leave. Surely, you spoke with him multiple times about your unhappiness and the causes of it. The fact that he's now glossing it over ("We didn't have it so bad") tells me that he's either not been paying attention or he's been ignoring the problem and just hoping that you will magically get better.
This is not a situation where you had never discussed the possibility of moving back to the U.S. It seems as if he was perfectly happy to agree to this when you were moving to his home country, but now that you want to enforce your part of the deal, he's saying that you abandoned him.
Maybe, though, he sees your new found happiness in the U.S. as a byproduct of leaving HIM not leaving his country and is feeling rejected. Have you addressed this with him?
There has to be some communication between you two beyond what you have had. Is there anyway you can get together, maybe in a neutral location for an extended weekend? This may be the best way to break through the communication impasse and to allow each other to understand where the other is coming from.
posted by Leezie at 7:22 PM on January 13, 2011 [3 favorites]
This is not a situation where you had never discussed the possibility of moving back to the U.S. It seems as if he was perfectly happy to agree to this when you were moving to his home country, but now that you want to enforce your part of the deal, he's saying that you abandoned him.
Maybe, though, he sees your new found happiness in the U.S. as a byproduct of leaving HIM not leaving his country and is feeling rejected. Have you addressed this with him?
There has to be some communication between you two beyond what you have had. Is there anyway you can get together, maybe in a neutral location for an extended weekend? This may be the best way to break through the communication impasse and to allow each other to understand where the other is coming from.
posted by Leezie at 7:22 PM on January 13, 2011 [3 favorites]
He says that he doesn't want to move over here and be as unhappy as I was there.
You two are done. You compromised, he isn't willing to. You're done. The rest is details.
posted by ook at 7:23 PM on January 13, 2011 [5 favorites]
You two are done. You compromised, he isn't willing to. You're done. The rest is details.
posted by ook at 7:23 PM on January 13, 2011 [5 favorites]
Part of me thinks that if he wanted to be with me enough, he would be willing to do anything to make it work."
well, i mean, maybe? you didn't "love him enough" to stay or to do your move in a way that he was comfortable with/could join in with you on. why is your depression more important than his? why is yours more real? why does he have to agree that your depression was bad and that you had to leave but you just brush him off by saying he's a debbie downer and always see the down side? i don't say this to beat you up or say i agree with him - just to illustrate that his side isn't really all that insane (and neither is yours).
it seems like you both take a lot of time minimizing the other person's feelings and maximizing your own. this is a normal human trait, but one that isn't terribly useful in a marriage. when you find yourself in a loop of figuring out who is right and who is wrong and who is selfish and who is selfless - you're asking the wrong questions and going down the wrong paths. you have to figure out how do you solve this together with the most respect and least amount of hurt.
i think you both need to do some real soul searching about what sort of marriage do you wish you were in and what sort of spouse do you wish you had and then look honestly at the marriage you are in and the spouse you have and decide if the differences are too great. this doesn't seem to be a question of geography, but rather one of expectations, respect, communication, and compromise.
posted by nadawi at 7:29 PM on January 13, 2011 [21 favorites]
well, i mean, maybe? you didn't "love him enough" to stay or to do your move in a way that he was comfortable with/could join in with you on. why is your depression more important than his? why is yours more real? why does he have to agree that your depression was bad and that you had to leave but you just brush him off by saying he's a debbie downer and always see the down side? i don't say this to beat you up or say i agree with him - just to illustrate that his side isn't really all that insane (and neither is yours).
it seems like you both take a lot of time minimizing the other person's feelings and maximizing your own. this is a normal human trait, but one that isn't terribly useful in a marriage. when you find yourself in a loop of figuring out who is right and who is wrong and who is selfish and who is selfless - you're asking the wrong questions and going down the wrong paths. you have to figure out how do you solve this together with the most respect and least amount of hurt.
i think you both need to do some real soul searching about what sort of marriage do you wish you were in and what sort of spouse do you wish you had and then look honestly at the marriage you are in and the spouse you have and decide if the differences are too great. this doesn't seem to be a question of geography, but rather one of expectations, respect, communication, and compromise.
posted by nadawi at 7:29 PM on January 13, 2011 [21 favorites]
I guess you will need to settle on a mutually agreeable third location to live or agree to six months in the states and six months in his country. You will both need to compromise and saying you must live in his countryy or he must live in your country means one of you will be miserable. Compromise or get divorced.
posted by MsKim at 7:30 PM on January 13, 2011
posted by MsKim at 7:30 PM on January 13, 2011
Maybe I missed something but what's preventing him from coming for a visit while he's waiting for his green card to come through? Or, just forget about the green card for the moment -- he just needs to get here and be in the same space with you, where you guys can hash through this in person. Forget about whether or not it's "forever" - he should come for a decent amount of time (no less than a month) so he can relax and get some sense of what it would be like.
posted by hapax_legomenon at 7:31 PM on January 13, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by hapax_legomenon at 7:31 PM on January 13, 2011 [2 favorites]
He says it's my fault because I just up and left him and I'm being selfish - my happiness matters and his doesn't.
What? Of course your happiness matters. In any relationship, both people's happiness matters. This guilt trip doesn't solve anything. Your husband has no business dismissing how unhappy you were while living abroad, and no business guilting you for moving when it was a matter of self preservation.
From what you've written, it sounds like you're doing the right thing by looking out for your own happiness, and planning for a future where you hope your husband can be happy as well. The safety nets you described your husband having sound really convenient for a trial period of living together in the States.
If it was me, I'd try to be as supportive as possible while he deals with depression, but I wouldn't accept any accusations of selfishness. I'd end the conversation and pick it up later when he feels better able to handle the situation without blaming you for standing up for yourself.
posted by pluot at 7:53 PM on January 13, 2011 [1 favorite]
What? Of course your happiness matters. In any relationship, both people's happiness matters. This guilt trip doesn't solve anything. Your husband has no business dismissing how unhappy you were while living abroad, and no business guilting you for moving when it was a matter of self preservation.
From what you've written, it sounds like you're doing the right thing by looking out for your own happiness, and planning for a future where you hope your husband can be happy as well. The safety nets you described your husband having sound really convenient for a trial period of living together in the States.
If it was me, I'd try to be as supportive as possible while he deals with depression, but I wouldn't accept any accusations of selfishness. I'd end the conversation and pick it up later when he feels better able to handle the situation without blaming you for standing up for yourself.
posted by pluot at 7:53 PM on January 13, 2011 [1 favorite]
Have him come for a visit, as long as is practical (i.e. time away from work, etc), ASAP. Just for a visit so you can be together because you miss him - don't make it loaded. (Yes, he is being childish and yes, you put in your time and yes, he should be more fair about it; but this is about saving your marriage by hook or by crook, not keeping score. (Assuming that is your priority. It would be understandable if you were done with him, too.)
Hopefully a visit will let him understand how much happier you are in your home city and overall put him in a better mood about the whole thing... after all, from what you've described, it's easy to feel depressed and pessimistic where he's living! The discussions you've been having shouldn't be attempted over the phone.
Anyway, if that city makes you depressed, by all means you should move home. Life is too short.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:31 PM on January 13, 2011
Hopefully a visit will let him understand how much happier you are in your home city and overall put him in a better mood about the whole thing... after all, from what you've described, it's easy to feel depressed and pessimistic where he's living! The discussions you've been having shouldn't be attempted over the phone.
Anyway, if that city makes you depressed, by all means you should move home. Life is too short.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:31 PM on January 13, 2011
I think you're in the right place and taking the right position on this. I also think this is not a hopeless situation, but rather one that calls for you to be sympathetic, patient, and firm: you tried things his way, and although it did not work out, you still want to keep trying--somehow and not necessarily by forcing him to move.
I agree that getting him to visit soon for some simple TLC time is a reasonable plan. But maybe you're just going to have a long distance relationship for a while, a cooling period for this issue until something changes. I mean, who knows. If you just get him to chill for a while, maybe he'll warm up to trying things in your town for a while, or maybe you'll both find opportunities in yet another place, or maybe you'll both get used to being apart and decide to end it with less drama.
posted by Monsieur Caution at 8:38 PM on January 13, 2011
I agree that getting him to visit soon for some simple TLC time is a reasonable plan. But maybe you're just going to have a long distance relationship for a while, a cooling period for this issue until something changes. I mean, who knows. If you just get him to chill for a while, maybe he'll warm up to trying things in your town for a while, or maybe you'll both find opportunities in yet another place, or maybe you'll both get used to being apart and decide to end it with less drama.
posted by Monsieur Caution at 8:38 PM on January 13, 2011
Wow. Uh, if someone blamed me for their entire state of mind, dismissed my feelings with "it wasn't so bad," and labelled me selfish, I'd start pushing back really hard, like "it's not okay for you to call me names," and "I am not having this conversation," and "your emotions are not my fault. That's not a weight I'll take on. You are an adult and you have hundreds of options." Anyway, sorry, this isn't very practical advice, but my outside opinion is "fuck THAT behavior."
The way he's acting is well-established as being uncool. I'm not saying "he's an abuser" (I really don't know anything about him), but if you google "emotional abuse" or "verbal abuse," you can find whole sections about minimizing other people's feelings, denying their reality, namecalling and labelling them, etc. It's clearly a tough time for him, but that doesn't make it okay to act this way.
I mean, sorry to even ask, but what are you getting out of a relationship with a guy who can't express concern or even understanding about your near-nervous-breakdown depression?
Anyway, in my highly-opionated view, it's time for you to stop apologizing, forgive yourself (you already have, it seems), and insist upon more being treated more respectfully. I'd push for him to stop blaming me for his feelings, acknowledge that things sucked there FOR ME regardless of how it was for him, and not label me selfish (or call me any names). After a few reminders, I would not continue any conversation in which those requests were not met.
P.S. 3 months seems like a fair amount of notice, to me.
P.P.S. What happened to your earlier agreement about him moving?
posted by salvia at 9:06 PM on January 13, 2011 [2 favorites]
The way he's acting is well-established as being uncool. I'm not saying "he's an abuser" (I really don't know anything about him), but if you google "emotional abuse" or "verbal abuse," you can find whole sections about minimizing other people's feelings, denying their reality, namecalling and labelling them, etc. It's clearly a tough time for him, but that doesn't make it okay to act this way.
I mean, sorry to even ask, but what are you getting out of a relationship with a guy who can't express concern or even understanding about your near-nervous-breakdown depression?
Anyway, in my highly-opionated view, it's time for you to stop apologizing, forgive yourself (you already have, it seems), and insist upon more being treated more respectfully. I'd push for him to stop blaming me for his feelings, acknowledge that things sucked there FOR ME regardless of how it was for him, and not label me selfish (or call me any names). After a few reminders, I would not continue any conversation in which those requests were not met.
P.S. 3 months seems like a fair amount of notice, to me.
P.P.S. What happened to your earlier agreement about him moving?
posted by salvia at 9:06 PM on January 13, 2011 [2 favorites]
You two made a plan together, as a team, to live in his country. With the caveat that if you didn't like it, you would plan to move back to the US.
If I were in his shoes, I would see this also as a joint team discussion, and there would be a plan to move together. But it sounds like you made these plans alone (communicated to him, but your decision) and moved due to your desperation. I'm not saying it was the wrong thing to do, but maybe to him the whole team aspect was kinda pulled out from under him. Now its you doing what you want and him having to tag along.
So whats the plan if he hates it in your country? You guys need to, as a team, come up with a decision that suits both of you if that happens. Because where things seem to stand now, theres no plan for that. Imagine how you would have felt, back in his country, depressed, anxious, but without the escape caveat you had.
I'm not downplaying the amount of compromise and sacrifice you went through to stay in his homeland, nor am I saying he shouldn't have realised how bad things were for you. His manipulative tactics are also very very bad. I'm just saying I'm picking up a lot of "I did this for him and now he won't do this for me and I this and he that" and not "we".
Good luck.
posted by Admira at 9:21 PM on January 13, 2011 [3 favorites]
If I were in his shoes, I would see this also as a joint team discussion, and there would be a plan to move together. But it sounds like you made these plans alone (communicated to him, but your decision) and moved due to your desperation. I'm not saying it was the wrong thing to do, but maybe to him the whole team aspect was kinda pulled out from under him. Now its you doing what you want and him having to tag along.
So whats the plan if he hates it in your country? You guys need to, as a team, come up with a decision that suits both of you if that happens. Because where things seem to stand now, theres no plan for that. Imagine how you would have felt, back in his country, depressed, anxious, but without the escape caveat you had.
I'm not downplaying the amount of compromise and sacrifice you went through to stay in his homeland, nor am I saying he shouldn't have realised how bad things were for you. His manipulative tactics are also very very bad. I'm just saying I'm picking up a lot of "I did this for him and now he won't do this for me and I this and he that" and not "we".
Good luck.
posted by Admira at 9:21 PM on January 13, 2011 [3 favorites]
If he's so distraught after three months to process your departure that he threatened suicide and other manipulative shenanigans... I'm kinda wondering how stable he was to begin with? I'm kinda wondering if your depression wasn't caused (at least in part) by your proximity to the negativity I suspect was within him from the beginning.
I could be totally wrong. Just something to think about.
posted by jbenben at 9:47 PM on January 13, 2011 [4 favorites]
I could be totally wrong. Just something to think about.
posted by jbenben at 9:47 PM on January 13, 2011 [4 favorites]
Yeah, the more I think about it, the more (as Admira says), a lot depends on the discussions in the three months leading up to your departure.
posted by salvia at 12:01 AM on January 14, 2011
posted by salvia at 12:01 AM on January 14, 2011
Maybe I missed something but what's preventing him from coming for a visit while he's waiting for his green card to come through?
The passport is submitted with a overseas visa application, so he wouldn't be able to enter the US until it's processed. This is usual for most countries and most visas that are not granted on arrival.
posted by Cuppatea at 1:06 AM on January 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
The passport is submitted with a overseas visa application, so he wouldn't be able to enter the US until it's processed. This is usual for most countries and most visas that are not granted on arrival.
posted by Cuppatea at 1:06 AM on January 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
There are more important things than a marriage.
You signed up for foreign duty, recognizing this was going to be a possible problem.
The problem eventually got bigger than the benefits.
Much of the advice here makes the marriage the most important thing in the equation. It's not, IMO. If it isn't mutually fulfilling and growth producing, you need to change something. Looks like you have, and IMO, you are on the right track. Follow your brain as well as your heart. Not everyone is cut out to make a go of such conditions.
Time to move on. If hubby wants to move with you, excellent, but if not, it's his choice and yours to make. Make it and get it over with. Life goes on. Soon it will be over. Don't waste it fretting and arguing.
Incidentally, you ARE being selfish, but you've paid for the privilege to do so in full. You can only give for so long. If no one else is taking care of you, it's your job to take care of you. Who else will in your world?
posted by FauxScot at 4:39 AM on January 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
You signed up for foreign duty, recognizing this was going to be a possible problem.
The problem eventually got bigger than the benefits.
Much of the advice here makes the marriage the most important thing in the equation. It's not, IMO. If it isn't mutually fulfilling and growth producing, you need to change something. Looks like you have, and IMO, you are on the right track. Follow your brain as well as your heart. Not everyone is cut out to make a go of such conditions.
Time to move on. If hubby wants to move with you, excellent, but if not, it's his choice and yours to make. Make it and get it over with. Life goes on. Soon it will be over. Don't waste it fretting and arguing.
Incidentally, you ARE being selfish, but you've paid for the privilege to do so in full. You can only give for so long. If no one else is taking care of you, it's your job to take care of you. Who else will in your world?
posted by FauxScot at 4:39 AM on January 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
"He says that he doesn't want to move over here and be as unhappy as I was there. "
Right. So, depsite him banging on and on about how you guys didn't have it so bad and you were all happy and now you've ruined everything, he actually knows and acknowledges that you were miserable. And he despite the fact that you slogged down that road for the good of the marriage for SEVEN YEARS, he doesn't seem to want to even run the risk of being that unhappy for a year.
The person who is being selfish here is him. Seriously. Don't get sad; get pissed off.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:46 AM on January 14, 2011 [5 favorites]
Right. So, depsite him banging on and on about how you guys didn't have it so bad and you were all happy and now you've ruined everything, he actually knows and acknowledges that you were miserable. And he despite the fact that you slogged down that road for the good of the marriage for SEVEN YEARS, he doesn't seem to want to even run the risk of being that unhappy for a year.
The person who is being selfish here is him. Seriously. Don't get sad; get pissed off.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:46 AM on January 14, 2011 [5 favorites]
someone who thrives on emotional blackmail...husband is having a tantrum and a pout
Come now, that's an unhelpful thing to say and she has said nothing to make that statement true. You're filling in the blanks with the uncharitable of character traits.
Look, you can't blame him for being depressed over the situation. As someone else pointed out, HIS depression is just as valid as YOUR depression. You saying "I just know we can be happy here!" is not far off from him saying "we had a good life here!" both are cases of projecting ones own happiness and needs onto the other person. If he moves, he will also be away from his friends & family (and dropping a career that he may have really liked).
But you did the right thing. You can't be there for him if you weren't able to be there for yourself. You are most likely right that the marriage would have crashed and burned if you had stayed. Maybe he tried to ignore or downplay your depression because he knew, on some level, that it was all a house of cards and to even look at it directly would cause it to come crashing down. You gave it many years, and you both knew from the outset that you had said it might not be permanent. Of course he would hope it wouldn't come to that. I am sure you didn't want it to come to that, either.
No one is in the right or the wrong here. You are both being selfish. And that is fine, that is right, for both of your needs are valid. You HAD to move away where you could get healthy again. He CAN be upset and scared about leaving his own friends, family, and settled life behind or losing his wife. What kind of choice is that? I'd be damn depressed as well.
I don't believe there's a compromise, to be honest. Do you want him to move to be with you and risk being as miserable as you were in his country? Will he resent you? Will you resent him (as it appears you do now)? Unless you both can overcome those emotions, I don't see how him moving will help. It will just flip the situation.
Good luck.
posted by Windigo at 5:02 AM on January 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
Come now, that's an unhelpful thing to say and she has said nothing to make that statement true. You're filling in the blanks with the uncharitable of character traits.
Look, you can't blame him for being depressed over the situation. As someone else pointed out, HIS depression is just as valid as YOUR depression. You saying "I just know we can be happy here!" is not far off from him saying "we had a good life here!" both are cases of projecting ones own happiness and needs onto the other person. If he moves, he will also be away from his friends & family (and dropping a career that he may have really liked).
But you did the right thing. You can't be there for him if you weren't able to be there for yourself. You are most likely right that the marriage would have crashed and burned if you had stayed. Maybe he tried to ignore or downplay your depression because he knew, on some level, that it was all a house of cards and to even look at it directly would cause it to come crashing down. You gave it many years, and you both knew from the outset that you had said it might not be permanent. Of course he would hope it wouldn't come to that. I am sure you didn't want it to come to that, either.
No one is in the right or the wrong here. You are both being selfish. And that is fine, that is right, for both of your needs are valid. You HAD to move away where you could get healthy again. He CAN be upset and scared about leaving his own friends, family, and settled life behind or losing his wife. What kind of choice is that? I'd be damn depressed as well.
I don't believe there's a compromise, to be honest. Do you want him to move to be with you and risk being as miserable as you were in his country? Will he resent you? Will you resent him (as it appears you do now)? Unless you both can overcome those emotions, I don't see how him moving will help. It will just flip the situation.
Good luck.
posted by Windigo at 5:02 AM on January 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
One last thing - it was her choice, in the end, to stay there for seven years. I kinda feel like there are several responses that think he should move to her just because. Like a punishment or atonement. If it was harmful for her to have stayed and led to such unhappiness....why is the answer for the husband to do the same? How will that help matters, except to breed resentment and bad will? Should he give it a try? Only if he really thinks he can make a go of it. If he is convinced he will be just as miserable, it will probably be self-fulfilling.
posted by Windigo at 5:05 AM on January 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Windigo at 5:05 AM on January 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
"It should be noted that he would be able to take a year long sabbatical from his job and keep our apartment over there so if he came over and it didn't work out, he would still have a job and a place to go back to."
This jumped out at me. I don't think it's too much to ask of him to simply try moving out to be with you for a while. You tried for his sake, for a number of years, and it didn't work out. Now you have the right to ask him to try the same thing, particularly if he won't lose employment or accommodation in the process.
I think in a long-term relationship you owe it to each other to at least try to meet the other person's needs for a while if they have proven they are willing to try to meet your needs, as I believe you have. Even if you find you just can't do it, trying is the important thing. If he can't accept that, maybe you need to reconsider your relationshop.
posted by greenfelttip at 5:12 AM on January 14, 2011
This jumped out at me. I don't think it's too much to ask of him to simply try moving out to be with you for a while. You tried for his sake, for a number of years, and it didn't work out. Now you have the right to ask him to try the same thing, particularly if he won't lose employment or accommodation in the process.
I think in a long-term relationship you owe it to each other to at least try to meet the other person's needs for a while if they have proven they are willing to try to meet your needs, as I believe you have. Even if you find you just can't do it, trying is the important thing. If he can't accept that, maybe you need to reconsider your relationshop.
posted by greenfelttip at 5:12 AM on January 14, 2011
Firstly, I'm glad you decided to get out of your miserable job and being miserable in general. There's no reason anyone should go through that.
I don't necessarily see anyone as 'bad' here. Its a pile of irreconcilable differences. He loves his home country and you love yours. Both of you love your countries and yourselves more than the other person. There's no crime here. Maybe its time to let go.
posted by p1nkdaisy at 6:12 AM on January 14, 2011
I don't necessarily see anyone as 'bad' here. Its a pile of irreconcilable differences. He loves his home country and you love yours. Both of you love your countries and yourselves more than the other person. There's no crime here. Maybe its time to let go.
posted by p1nkdaisy at 6:12 AM on January 14, 2011
These answers are disheartening. I am trying to avoid a similar situation myself, though we are both in a third country. I love it here. Husband less so. Husband would go home in a moment. He also has the sabbatical option, which can at times cloud the decision. My career would have to take a serious backstep if I went back. Compromise is hard when the choices are so distant. We are talking it out, at length, constantly, and this is helping, gradually.
I can't offer much advice other than you've got get face to face, and get everything out in the open. Either you going there or speeding up the process for him to visit you. These are absolutely not the kind of discussions you can do well on the phone.
posted by wingless_angel at 7:24 AM on January 14, 2011
I can't offer much advice other than you've got get face to face, and get everything out in the open. Either you going there or speeding up the process for him to visit you. These are absolutely not the kind of discussions you can do well on the phone.
posted by wingless_angel at 7:24 AM on January 14, 2011
I'm sorry that your attempts to create a happier life for yourself have resulted in such heavy complications.
I don't have much in the way of advice, but would it be possible to set up a couples therapy session over the phone with your husband? It seems like there are a lot of emotions clouding up the lines of communication, and a mediated discussion might go a long way towards sorting out these issues.
posted by sk932 at 7:50 AM on January 14, 2011
I don't have much in the way of advice, but would it be possible to set up a couples therapy session over the phone with your husband? It seems like there are a lot of emotions clouding up the lines of communication, and a mediated discussion might go a long way towards sorting out these issues.
posted by sk932 at 7:50 AM on January 14, 2011
i have a friend who is so much in the same position as you that i thought you might be her (you aren't).
i'm not sure i have much to offer either, but i can say - unequivocally - that he would never move to the states with/for her. regardless of what agreements they have, how unhappy she is ... he would just never do it. if she moved back first (after three months of discussion or three years), he would not follow.
i agree with some others who say no one's really at fault, despite that he said he would at some point move back and now is saying he won't. like with my friend, he either meant it at the time or never thought it would happen or was saying what he need to get what he wanted. maybe he's more at fault, but that doesn't really get anyone anywhere now that it's happening.
i think the real question for you is whether you'll be happier there with him or here without him. i hope for your sake, it works out differently. but if he's this opposed to trying it for a spell, you'll end up here again in a year anyway.
posted by crankyrogalsky at 10:19 AM on January 14, 2011
i'm not sure i have much to offer either, but i can say - unequivocally - that he would never move to the states with/for her. regardless of what agreements they have, how unhappy she is ... he would just never do it. if she moved back first (after three months of discussion or three years), he would not follow.
i agree with some others who say no one's really at fault, despite that he said he would at some point move back and now is saying he won't. like with my friend, he either meant it at the time or never thought it would happen or was saying what he need to get what he wanted. maybe he's more at fault, but that doesn't really get anyone anywhere now that it's happening.
i think the real question for you is whether you'll be happier there with him or here without him. i hope for your sake, it works out differently. but if he's this opposed to trying it for a spell, you'll end up here again in a year anyway.
posted by crankyrogalsky at 10:19 AM on January 14, 2011
You asked for perspective, so here's what jumps out at me: his depression now seems exactly like the depression you were feeling then. So, if you are going to get out of this problem, you need to start with that - you know exactly what he feels like. Your depression caused you to suddenly hit a breaking point and flee the country quickly. His is causing him to get stuck wanting what he had and making it hard for him to accept the change that has already happened. Add to this that he's probably feeling profoundly guilty for bringing you out there and making you so miserable. Honestly, when he says "it wasn't so bad," what I'm reading is "I wasn't so bad."
And that's all I've got. I'd be way out of my depth trying to tell you what to do, but those are two things that I've noticed that it might help to keep in mind when you try to talk to him about this. Especially the last one, actually. Because you probably respond to "it wasn't so bad" by trying to get him to understand how bad it was for you. But that's probably making him more defensive - you need to figure out a way to talk to him about why you needed to leave where he doesn't feel like the bad guy. This will be tricky, since his depression is going to make him feel like that even if you're not framing it that way. I like the idea of trying to conference call him in to a couple's counselor, since this sort of communication balancing act is what they do professionally.
posted by Ragged Richard at 10:47 AM on January 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
And that's all I've got. I'd be way out of my depth trying to tell you what to do, but those are two things that I've noticed that it might help to keep in mind when you try to talk to him about this. Especially the last one, actually. Because you probably respond to "it wasn't so bad" by trying to get him to understand how bad it was for you. But that's probably making him more defensive - you need to figure out a way to talk to him about why you needed to leave where he doesn't feel like the bad guy. This will be tricky, since his depression is going to make him feel like that even if you're not framing it that way. I like the idea of trying to conference call him in to a couple's counselor, since this sort of communication balancing act is what they do professionally.
posted by Ragged Richard at 10:47 AM on January 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
It sounds like living far from home is a deal breaker for both of you, and when you live that far apart, I think you'd do better to find someone else.
posted by WeekendJen at 1:48 PM on January 14, 2011
posted by WeekendJen at 1:48 PM on January 14, 2011
I'm worried that your husband is constantly pessimistic. If he's depressed, then he's not in a place to make a decision about moving right now, and he needs to be helped into a better place. If you yourself are not in a place to be there for him through possible depression (not necessarily by moving back, possibly by living separately for a while) you might have your answer... take care of yourself first.
posted by halonine at 2:55 PM on January 17, 2011
posted by halonine at 2:55 PM on January 17, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
You did a good job, I think, of stating both your position and his and how the timing went down. Is the central thing that you kind of dashed past him, went home, and now he feels he's being a little blackmailed? It's important that he really understand you wish the circumstances were different and are sorry that's what they were.
I think he can take a sabbatical and give it a try, and if he won't, he won't flex enough to be with you. You gave his thing a try for a much longer period of time.
And just a stray question...was this marriage fun?
posted by A Terrible Llama at 6:50 PM on January 13, 2011 [1 favorite]