Are my memories real?
December 16, 2010 4:49 PM Subscribe
I have a reputation in my family for exaggerating or outright lying about things that happened in the past. This reputation is undeserved. What's going on?
I have always had a remarkably good memory- enough that my parents acknowledge how much and how well I can remember things. But when I remember something that they don't like, suddenly it's pointed out that I have a tendency to exaggerate or that I'm remembering something that never happened.
For example, my mother flatly denies ever having laid a hand on me as a child while I clearly remember her slapping me so hard across the face once that her watch fell off.
Today, my sister asked me if I ever went to the local LGBT Center when I was in high school (10 years ago). I was surprised that she asked, because after I came out to my family and they learned that I had gone to the center, I remember my sister being angry that such a place existed (because it wasn't appropriate for them to support the homosexual lifestyle to people under 18 without their parents' consent), and I remember my parents talking about suing them. When I reminded her of that, she accused me of lying.
These are only two examples out of literally dozens of times this has happened. I'm willing to believe that situations that were stressful or difficult are hard to remember clearly, but the effect is incredibly distressing to me- after having been told so many times that things I remember happening plain never happened, it really makes me begin to wonder whether I can trust my own memories. After all, is it more likely that three people are conspiring against me, or that I'm actually wrong? But most of the things I remember that are denied are related to ugly family situations (my coming out situation is probably 90th percentile for how bad it can go), and I have a hard time believing that the narrative of most of my life is just factually wrong.
The complicating factor is that for most of my life I have suffered from very severe depression. I recently moved back in with my parents and spent a month in a behavioral health program after a particularly crippling series of events resulted in a meltdown. At first it helped, as I learned more coping mechanisms for my depression. However, as I started to apply the things I learned to my relationship with my own family, things quickly got ugly. What ends up happening is that when I assert myself about anything (after consulting my therapist about a situation), my parents will downplay whatever happened by saying I'm exaggerating or making it up and that it's because of my disease. Because I'm so unsure about my memories anymore, I'm left really confused- I don't know if it really is my depression causing me to create tension or if my family is just in denial about things that have happened. All I know is that my depression has really returned with a vengeance because none of the coping mechanisms I learned had anything but a deleterious effect on my relationship with the family.
I guess in short: Is there a name for this kind of situation, where you don't know if your memories are real or not? How do you cope with it, or find answers? How can I lose the reputation as a story-teller when in my opinion the only thing I've done is tell ugly truths? And any general advice? I'm really feeling lost lately.
I have always had a remarkably good memory- enough that my parents acknowledge how much and how well I can remember things. But when I remember something that they don't like, suddenly it's pointed out that I have a tendency to exaggerate or that I'm remembering something that never happened.
For example, my mother flatly denies ever having laid a hand on me as a child while I clearly remember her slapping me so hard across the face once that her watch fell off.
Today, my sister asked me if I ever went to the local LGBT Center when I was in high school (10 years ago). I was surprised that she asked, because after I came out to my family and they learned that I had gone to the center, I remember my sister being angry that such a place existed (because it wasn't appropriate for them to support the homosexual lifestyle to people under 18 without their parents' consent), and I remember my parents talking about suing them. When I reminded her of that, she accused me of lying.
These are only two examples out of literally dozens of times this has happened. I'm willing to believe that situations that were stressful or difficult are hard to remember clearly, but the effect is incredibly distressing to me- after having been told so many times that things I remember happening plain never happened, it really makes me begin to wonder whether I can trust my own memories. After all, is it more likely that three people are conspiring against me, or that I'm actually wrong? But most of the things I remember that are denied are related to ugly family situations (my coming out situation is probably 90th percentile for how bad it can go), and I have a hard time believing that the narrative of most of my life is just factually wrong.
The complicating factor is that for most of my life I have suffered from very severe depression. I recently moved back in with my parents and spent a month in a behavioral health program after a particularly crippling series of events resulted in a meltdown. At first it helped, as I learned more coping mechanisms for my depression. However, as I started to apply the things I learned to my relationship with my own family, things quickly got ugly. What ends up happening is that when I assert myself about anything (after consulting my therapist about a situation), my parents will downplay whatever happened by saying I'm exaggerating or making it up and that it's because of my disease. Because I'm so unsure about my memories anymore, I'm left really confused- I don't know if it really is my depression causing me to create tension or if my family is just in denial about things that have happened. All I know is that my depression has really returned with a vengeance because none of the coping mechanisms I learned had anything but a deleterious effect on my relationship with the family.
I guess in short: Is there a name for this kind of situation, where you don't know if your memories are real or not? How do you cope with it, or find answers? How can I lose the reputation as a story-teller when in my opinion the only thing I've done is tell ugly truths? And any general advice? I'm really feeling lost lately.
This sounds like a really really awful situation - my heart goes out to you. Are there any other family members/friends (aunt? uncle?) with whom you could stay until you're ready to be on your own again?
posted by purlgurly at 4:56 PM on December 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by purlgurly at 4:56 PM on December 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
This is only happening with things they don't want to have happened? My guess is they're not thinking you're a story-teller -- they're denying moments from their past of which they're not proud. This doesn't mean they're conspiring against you; it means they're unwilling to own up to things they are or should be ashamed about.
posted by J. Wilson at 4:56 PM on December 16, 2010 [21 favorites]
posted by J. Wilson at 4:56 PM on December 16, 2010 [21 favorites]
Your family is attempting to suppress past abuse with emotional abuse in the present. Your depression is exacerbated by their behavior now because it might have been caused by the way they have treated you your entire life. Emotional invalidation is a very dangerous form of emotional abuse because it can cause you to question your own judgment and mental stability, as you express above.
Your questions 1) your parents are 'gaslighting' you, if you want to google that term 2) You can cope with it short-term by disengaging from them to whatever degree allows you to ramp up therapy and learn to trust your own intellect again 3) You can't really lose the reputation as it is a cornerstone of their coping mechanisms to imagine that you are lying. How others perceive you is largely out of your control, but you can learn to manage your reaction to it so you'll feel better.
Stay with your therapist, but make sure they are the right person for the job. They should accept your emotions and not question your recollections in a harsh, demeaning or invalidating way.
posted by chrillsicka at 5:00 PM on December 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
Your questions 1) your parents are 'gaslighting' you, if you want to google that term 2) You can cope with it short-term by disengaging from them to whatever degree allows you to ramp up therapy and learn to trust your own intellect again 3) You can't really lose the reputation as it is a cornerstone of their coping mechanisms to imagine that you are lying. How others perceive you is largely out of your control, but you can learn to manage your reaction to it so you'll feel better.
Stay with your therapist, but make sure they are the right person for the job. They should accept your emotions and not question your recollections in a harsh, demeaning or invalidating way.
posted by chrillsicka at 5:00 PM on December 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
Telling an abused kid that they are a crazy liar is an old, vicious tactic. You know the truth, and they've given you a sharp look at their own weakness, cowardice and malice in turning these things back on you.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 5:07 PM on December 16, 2010 [17 favorites]
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 5:07 PM on December 16, 2010 [17 favorites]
This doesn't sound so much like gaslighting, which is intentionally rearranging reality with the specific goal of making someone look and feel crazy.
This sounds like the more straightforward Forgetting and Denial, which is where the perp says some version of "that didn't happen", or "I don't remember that" which is supposed to be functionally equivalent to "that didn't happen".
Since the examples you provide are all things that a person would want to forget or deny ever happened, I doubt there's any more complex explanation.
So, the first thing to remember is: don't believe them. It's imperative that you not believe them.
If you feel like saying anything, say any of the following right away. Don't bring it up later. Don't get into any arguments or discussions. Just put your foot down:
- Cut it out.
- I don't believe you. And I don't want it to happen again.
- Stop it.
- Stop making me crazy.
You have to keep it simple. If they kick up at any of this, don't engage. Lalala you're not listening, but in the nicest and most silent possible way. Maybe broken-record a couple of times if you have to, then change the subject.
posted by tel3path at 5:09 PM on December 16, 2010 [10 favorites]
This sounds like the more straightforward Forgetting and Denial, which is where the perp says some version of "that didn't happen", or "I don't remember that" which is supposed to be functionally equivalent to "that didn't happen".
Since the examples you provide are all things that a person would want to forget or deny ever happened, I doubt there's any more complex explanation.
So, the first thing to remember is: don't believe them. It's imperative that you not believe them.
If you feel like saying anything, say any of the following right away. Don't bring it up later. Don't get into any arguments or discussions. Just put your foot down:
- Cut it out.
- I don't believe you. And I don't want it to happen again.
- Stop it.
- Stop making me crazy.
You have to keep it simple. If they kick up at any of this, don't engage. Lalala you're not listening, but in the nicest and most silent possible way. Maybe broken-record a couple of times if you have to, then change the subject.
posted by tel3path at 5:09 PM on December 16, 2010 [10 favorites]
Does this happen with anyone other than your family, in situations where it's not something that the other person ought to be ashamed of?
I mean, our memories DO mutate over time. Dan Simons has a really good book that covers it called "The Invisible Gorilla." He and his co author Christopher Chabris talk about having their students right down what they were doing and how they found out about the 9/11 attacks, and then a few years later they had them write it again...and no one's memory matched what actually happened. It's really common for a memory to change from what really happened to your 'story' of what happened.
But given the examples you mention are all very ugly I imagine it's THEIR memories that are getting twisted, not yours. They don't want to think of themselves as abusive or unsupportive. But denying it doesn't make it not true, and them downplaying your experiences isn't right. This atmosphere is poisoning you and you need to get out asap. Are there any friends you can stay with, or at least spend the majority of your time with?
posted by Caravantea at 5:11 PM on December 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
I mean, our memories DO mutate over time. Dan Simons has a really good book that covers it called "The Invisible Gorilla." He and his co author Christopher Chabris talk about having their students right down what they were doing and how they found out about the 9/11 attacks, and then a few years later they had them write it again...and no one's memory matched what actually happened. It's really common for a memory to change from what really happened to your 'story' of what happened.
But given the examples you mention are all very ugly I imagine it's THEIR memories that are getting twisted, not yours. They don't want to think of themselves as abusive or unsupportive. But denying it doesn't make it not true, and them downplaying your experiences isn't right. This atmosphere is poisoning you and you need to get out asap. Are there any friends you can stay with, or at least spend the majority of your time with?
posted by Caravantea at 5:11 PM on December 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
P.S. And don't believe them. Do. Not. Believe. Them. You've very conscientiously come here for a reality check, and you can now, with a clear conscience and your head held high, not spend one single second more wondering whether they are right about any of this and you are wrong and/or crazy.
Don't believe them.
posted by tel3path at 5:13 PM on December 16, 2010 [9 favorites]
Don't believe them.
posted by tel3path at 5:13 PM on December 16, 2010 [9 favorites]
A simple thing to remember: lots of people have terrible or selective memories, whether it's intentional or not. This is even more the case when it comes to bad memories because people want to forget those embarrassing, awful, no good moments.
I agree with the others above-- don't believe them. Don't let them think you're crazy, imagining things or lying. Your memories are real and that's all that matters.
One idea I have is that maybe your family is shutting down and refusing to believe you if a majority of your memories are negative. If you start bringing up things they WANT to remember, they might become more willing to listen to you when you bring up the more harsh memories down the line. I'm not saying you are doing anything wrong or that you have to prove yourself (this is your family after all, they should just trust you!) but a tactic like this might help with your own sanity to receive validation at least part of the time.
posted by joan_holloway at 5:21 PM on December 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
I agree with the others above-- don't believe them. Don't let them think you're crazy, imagining things or lying. Your memories are real and that's all that matters.
One idea I have is that maybe your family is shutting down and refusing to believe you if a majority of your memories are negative. If you start bringing up things they WANT to remember, they might become more willing to listen to you when you bring up the more harsh memories down the line. I'm not saying you are doing anything wrong or that you have to prove yourself (this is your family after all, they should just trust you!) but a tactic like this might help with your own sanity to receive validation at least part of the time.
posted by joan_holloway at 5:21 PM on December 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
I understand how you're feeling. Know that every family has what is essentially a "family myth" and that when any one member tries to challenge or deny any part of the myth that has been built up over the years, the other members feel threatened and actively work to discredit the "shit disturber". It's actually very common, even in relatively functional family units.
You need to trust yourself and your memories. Do not concern yourself with your "reputation" within the family. It's frustrating to have an excellent memory next to family members who are in convenient denial. Accept that their memories are just that... their memories, which by and large are a reflection of how they've processed (or not processed) a given event.
This does not in and of itself make them bad people or mean that they are purposefully trying to derail your mental well-being. From your brief description it seems that your family has suppressed a lot of unpleasantness ie. no one wants to remember what shit-heels they were when you took the difficult step of coming out to them. This is their coping mechanism, fine, but don't let it threaten your reality. In short, do not look to your family for validation of your memories or feelings. It's a no-win situation.
posted by braemar at 5:26 PM on December 16, 2010 [5 favorites]
You need to trust yourself and your memories. Do not concern yourself with your "reputation" within the family. It's frustrating to have an excellent memory next to family members who are in convenient denial. Accept that their memories are just that... their memories, which by and large are a reflection of how they've processed (or not processed) a given event.
This does not in and of itself make them bad people or mean that they are purposefully trying to derail your mental well-being. From your brief description it seems that your family has suppressed a lot of unpleasantness ie. no one wants to remember what shit-heels they were when you took the difficult step of coming out to them. This is their coping mechanism, fine, but don't let it threaten your reality. In short, do not look to your family for validation of your memories or feelings. It's a no-win situation.
posted by braemar at 5:26 PM on December 16, 2010 [5 favorites]
There *is* a comparatively normal and common family dynamic where family members fail to update their ideas of each other. I thought my mother's favorite color was red for fully a decade past when it was.
So it might not be unusual for your family to think of you as fanciful if you'd been prone to exaggerating as a child. But your question suggests it's going way past that point - you sound concerned that you might be confabulating, because you have a history of mental illness, and because your version of events doesn't jibe with your family's version. It's possible you're confabulating. But it's also possible that your family constructed a completely different narrative around the negative pieces of your childhood, to keep the peace at all costs.
I think maybe for your own peace of mind, you should spend some time with a shrink - an unbiased person who can evaluate whether you seem to be hanging out in the same reality as everyone else or whether you're having organic or psychological problems with your memory. (I am inclined to think your memory is fine, and it's your family that's fucked-up, but I am a stranger on the internet, not a psychiatrist or psychologist.)
posted by gingerest at 5:27 PM on December 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
So it might not be unusual for your family to think of you as fanciful if you'd been prone to exaggerating as a child. But your question suggests it's going way past that point - you sound concerned that you might be confabulating, because you have a history of mental illness, and because your version of events doesn't jibe with your family's version. It's possible you're confabulating. But it's also possible that your family constructed a completely different narrative around the negative pieces of your childhood, to keep the peace at all costs.
I think maybe for your own peace of mind, you should spend some time with a shrink - an unbiased person who can evaluate whether you seem to be hanging out in the same reality as everyone else or whether you're having organic or psychological problems with your memory. (I am inclined to think your memory is fine, and it's your family that's fucked-up, but I am a stranger on the internet, not a psychiatrist or psychologist.)
posted by gingerest at 5:27 PM on December 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
I have the same kind of memory; I remember *everything*. Entire conversations from when I was a child. What someone was wearing on a certain day 20 years ago. I have learned over the years that very few people remember things in such detail - many people don't remember what they had for breakfast this morning.
You will sleep a lot better if you don't always attribute it to malice. I have found that most people honestly just don't have the kind of recall that you (and I) have, and no matter what you're not going to win an argument when the other person is 100% convinced that what you remember isn't true. It is both a blessing and a curse. In my case, I have learned to just keep my mouth shut, regardless of what I remember, if there is someone who appears to have a strong opinion. Most of the time, it's just not worth the trouble to correct someone when you know they won't remember. I prefer keeping peace. YMMV.
posted by brownrd at 5:28 PM on December 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
You will sleep a lot better if you don't always attribute it to malice. I have found that most people honestly just don't have the kind of recall that you (and I) have, and no matter what you're not going to win an argument when the other person is 100% convinced that what you remember isn't true. It is both a blessing and a curse. In my case, I have learned to just keep my mouth shut, regardless of what I remember, if there is someone who appears to have a strong opinion. Most of the time, it's just not worth the trouble to correct someone when you know they won't remember. I prefer keeping peace. YMMV.
posted by brownrd at 5:28 PM on December 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
Part of this happens in my family -- not the hostile "you're lying," but plenty of "you must be mistaken" and "I would remember that if it really happened" and "You only remember the bad things". They're protecting themselves, and they don't give a damn how you feel about it or about what's right. In your family, they've learned that it's the most effective way not to acknowledge what you're talking about. They not only change the subject, but they change it to "you're the one who's evil and wrong."
As you continue with therapy, making choices and sorting things out, you'll gain confidence in your own intuition and gut feelings. It's terribly hard when you're anxious and depressed and doubting yourself.
You can't change them or somehow get them to come around; it will never happen. Can you avoid bringing up these subjects, and stay quiet when somebody else tells a "revised" version of something in the past? I think it's the only way to lessen the hurt and frustration that this crap brings you. It's terrible when people in your family don't show you any respect. Feel sad about it, but accept that it's going to stay that way for a long time.
posted by wryly at 5:30 PM on December 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
As you continue with therapy, making choices and sorting things out, you'll gain confidence in your own intuition and gut feelings. It's terribly hard when you're anxious and depressed and doubting yourself.
You can't change them or somehow get them to come around; it will never happen. Can you avoid bringing up these subjects, and stay quiet when somebody else tells a "revised" version of something in the past? I think it's the only way to lessen the hurt and frustration that this crap brings you. It's terrible when people in your family don't show you any respect. Feel sad about it, but accept that it's going to stay that way for a long time.
posted by wryly at 5:30 PM on December 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
I should be more clear: I think you should ask someone with experience in psychology and neurology specifically about this. I know you've had considerable experience with mental health care. I think you might be reassured and equipped with some tools to deal with family denial or, if it turns out you do have some memory/cognitive difficulties, some tools to deal with that.
posted by gingerest at 5:31 PM on December 16, 2010
posted by gingerest at 5:31 PM on December 16, 2010
No-one remembers everything. What we remember and what we forget is highly personal, which means there is no one story that's 100 per cent correct. Cognitive biases can get in the way. We remember negative events more easily than positive ones, and we remember things that happen to us more than things that happen to other people. Depression can make you gravitate even further towards negative thoughts and bad memories.
But your memories are probably correct; those events probably did happen. Your family members might feel that they are not representative of your childhood overall; most parents like to believe they were generally good to their children. Maybe they remember the kind things they did for you, and the times you misbehaved, and from those memories they've constructed a narrative in which they were the victims, not you. Maybe they feel guilty about the way they behaved, but they're not yet able to admit that out loud.
Whatever the reason, sounds like your family has some abusive patterns of behaviour. The way they treated you was not okay, and telling you it never happened or that you are exaggerating is also not okay. Those patterns probably won't change, though, and continually putting your side of the argument is only going to cause you pain, no matter how factually correct you are. The best solution might be to put some distance between you and your family. Move out, set boundaries and refuse to discuss personal matters like your sexuality or mental health.
posted by embrangled at 5:31 PM on December 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
But your memories are probably correct; those events probably did happen. Your family members might feel that they are not representative of your childhood overall; most parents like to believe they were generally good to their children. Maybe they remember the kind things they did for you, and the times you misbehaved, and from those memories they've constructed a narrative in which they were the victims, not you. Maybe they feel guilty about the way they behaved, but they're not yet able to admit that out loud.
Whatever the reason, sounds like your family has some abusive patterns of behaviour. The way they treated you was not okay, and telling you it never happened or that you are exaggerating is also not okay. Those patterns probably won't change, though, and continually putting your side of the argument is only going to cause you pain, no matter how factually correct you are. The best solution might be to put some distance between you and your family. Move out, set boundaries and refuse to discuss personal matters like your sexuality or mental health.
posted by embrangled at 5:31 PM on December 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
People defend themselves by redefining painful reality. I was coming from a highly personal place when I mentioned malice up above, and it's entirely fair to remind ourselves that other people's defense mechanisms are not necessarily malicious, even when they are hurtful to the people at the center of the painful memory.
And the family myth thing? So, so true.
There was an "accident" when I was young, involving a sister, hot oil, and deliberate aim at my face. The family myth that instantly formed involved carelessness on my part and a household appliance behaving in a way that was physically impossible. The adults accepted this version without question, despite its absolute impossibility. I accept the myth, but I will never, never forget the look on my sister's face as she drew her arm back.
They can't handle the truth. You have to, to move on. Keep it close, let them have their ridiculous truths... you know.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 5:42 PM on December 16, 2010
And the family myth thing? So, so true.
There was an "accident" when I was young, involving a sister, hot oil, and deliberate aim at my face. The family myth that instantly formed involved carelessness on my part and a household appliance behaving in a way that was physically impossible. The adults accepted this version without question, despite its absolute impossibility. I accept the myth, but I will never, never forget the look on my sister's face as she drew her arm back.
They can't handle the truth. You have to, to move on. Keep it close, let them have their ridiculous truths... you know.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 5:42 PM on December 16, 2010
For example, my mother flatly denies ever having laid a hand on me as a child while I clearly remember her slapping me so hard across the face once that her watch fell off.
This is one of those things that parents somehow never remember.
I was blogging a long backpacking trip. One of my entries was about visiting a sacred place, and I was talking about the behavior of the religion's adherents in said sacred place - specifically the freedom of children to play, laugh, talk, etc. and people's outward sense of joy and good humor to be there. I contrasted this with my childhood experience of church, especially the times when my parents would take me out of the service to be spanked because I wasn't able to sit quietly enough.
My mom saw this and was NOT pleased. She denied that anything of the sort had ever happened, and even denied that sitting in an hour long church service was ever a challenge for me. From her perspective, I loved church and was a perfectly behaved angel every Sunday.
So. Yeah.
There's a certain point at which you just have to give up and accept their version of things while you're in their presence. That or you have to decide that you were abused and deal with the fallout.
posted by Sara C. at 5:48 PM on December 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
This is one of those things that parents somehow never remember.
I was blogging a long backpacking trip. One of my entries was about visiting a sacred place, and I was talking about the behavior of the religion's adherents in said sacred place - specifically the freedom of children to play, laugh, talk, etc. and people's outward sense of joy and good humor to be there. I contrasted this with my childhood experience of church, especially the times when my parents would take me out of the service to be spanked because I wasn't able to sit quietly enough.
My mom saw this and was NOT pleased. She denied that anything of the sort had ever happened, and even denied that sitting in an hour long church service was ever a challenge for me. From her perspective, I loved church and was a perfectly behaved angel every Sunday.
So. Yeah.
There's a certain point at which you just have to give up and accept their version of things while you're in their presence. That or you have to decide that you were abused and deal with the fallout.
posted by Sara C. at 5:48 PM on December 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Why not work with your therapist on this? It sounds like the memory denial and the resulting anger and pain are making your depression worse. I'm with embrangled: being with your family sounds supremely counterproductive right now. These past problems with your family sound like a big piece of why you're feeling so crappy, and arguing with your family about whether they happened are not just aggravates it.
You were doing better with the coping mechanisms before your family got into the mix. Why not get away from your family for a while while you practice those mechanisms and build up more strength to deal with these things? You don't have to disown them forever unless you want to, just take a break until you're strong enough to better deal with what they are throwing at you.
posted by zachlipton at 5:48 PM on December 16, 2010
You were doing better with the coping mechanisms before your family got into the mix. Why not get away from your family for a while while you practice those mechanisms and build up more strength to deal with these things? You don't have to disown them forever unless you want to, just take a break until you're strong enough to better deal with what they are throwing at you.
posted by zachlipton at 5:48 PM on December 16, 2010
You are kicking sleeping dogs, and those dogs are biting you.
If they agree with your memories a out innocuous or positive events, then the likelihood is very, very high that your memories of unpleasant events are accurate and your family is ashamed of or has convinced themselves that the unpleasant things didn't happen.
Spend as little time as possible with people like that, and stick to innocuous topics. You know the truth. They don't want to know it, and there's not much you can do to force them to recognize it.
posted by rtha at 5:48 PM on December 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
If they agree with your memories a out innocuous or positive events, then the likelihood is very, very high that your memories of unpleasant events are accurate and your family is ashamed of or has convinced themselves that the unpleasant things didn't happen.
Spend as little time as possible with people like that, and stick to innocuous topics. You know the truth. They don't want to know it, and there's not much you can do to force them to recognize it.
posted by rtha at 5:48 PM on December 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks a lot for the answers so far. I'm feeling very reassured about my memories, especially when I think back and realize that this situation has only ever happened with my immediate family and not with anyone else I know. Unfortunately, it's not really reassuring to know that rather than me being crazy, my family is abusive.
I have had a lot of people tell me that I have an emotionally abusive family, and it's such a difficult thing to hear. My parents are Iranian immigrants, and I was raised with the "parents are infallible" model. This has always made it extremely difficult for me to take steps to distance myself from them, especially because every step I take away amps up the guilt tripping to the nth degree. My psychiatrist says that a lot of the depression I have comes from an inability to have anger towards them, so I just get angry at myself instead.
I have never been able to not care about my parents' behavior, and I've always had an inkling that we'll end up estranged one day, if I ever manage to plant my feet firmly enough on the ground that I could cut the cord. The responses here have motivated me, at least, to try a little bit harder to get out of the immediate situation. Moving in with other family isn't really an option for cultural reasons, but I'm definitely going to consider picking up another job, both so I can save up enough money to move out and so that I don't have to spend as much time at home.
posted by tumbleweedjack at 6:04 PM on December 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
I have had a lot of people tell me that I have an emotionally abusive family, and it's such a difficult thing to hear. My parents are Iranian immigrants, and I was raised with the "parents are infallible" model. This has always made it extremely difficult for me to take steps to distance myself from them, especially because every step I take away amps up the guilt tripping to the nth degree. My psychiatrist says that a lot of the depression I have comes from an inability to have anger towards them, so I just get angry at myself instead.
I have never been able to not care about my parents' behavior, and I've always had an inkling that we'll end up estranged one day, if I ever manage to plant my feet firmly enough on the ground that I could cut the cord. The responses here have motivated me, at least, to try a little bit harder to get out of the immediate situation. Moving in with other family isn't really an option for cultural reasons, but I'm definitely going to consider picking up another job, both so I can save up enough money to move out and so that I don't have to spend as much time at home.
posted by tumbleweedjack at 6:04 PM on December 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
My psychiatrist says that a lot of the depression I have comes from an inability to have anger towards them, so I just get angry at myself instead.
That was me, back in the day. I couldn't get angry with my mom, who raised me by herself. I got depressed and internalized all that anger. And I didn't even have an abusive childhood, just a regular difficult one. Once I was able to get angry with her, my depression lessened. Nothing became all unicorns and rainbows, but at least I didn't think I was a terrible useless person anymore.
posted by rtha at 6:11 PM on December 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
That was me, back in the day. I couldn't get angry with my mom, who raised me by herself. I got depressed and internalized all that anger. And I didn't even have an abusive childhood, just a regular difficult one. Once I was able to get angry with her, my depression lessened. Nothing became all unicorns and rainbows, but at least I didn't think I was a terrible useless person anymore.
posted by rtha at 6:11 PM on December 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
My parents do this too; they went so far as to invent a "hilarious" sing-songy slogan to indoctrinate younger family members with the belief that I can never be trusted. Complete mindfuck. For awhile as a young teenager I internalized this belief that I was somehow just a born liar, and so I experimented with casual deceit because I thought it was what I was good at. (Which provided them with just enough examples of my actually lying to give them ammunition to continue their campaign for, oh, another 15-20 years and counting.)
I've come to understand that their motivations in doing this, although selfish, had basically nothing to do with me. When their egos are threatened, they revise reality to delete whatever possibility is threatening to their egos. I am recounting facts they didn't know? clearly I'm making them up; it couldn't be that they had been ignorant of something! My siblings are chronically depressed? it must be because I told the siblings so many lies as a child that they never came to understand how the world works; it couldn't have anything to do with anyone's dysfunctional parenting!
Insofar as I have made peace with this obnoxiousness, my solution has been to think little of them, and to hold myself to a higher standard of mature interpersonal behavior. That I remain resentful may be pretty transparent.
posted by foursentences at 6:17 PM on December 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
I've come to understand that their motivations in doing this, although selfish, had basically nothing to do with me. When their egos are threatened, they revise reality to delete whatever possibility is threatening to their egos. I am recounting facts they didn't know? clearly I'm making them up; it couldn't be that they had been ignorant of something! My siblings are chronically depressed? it must be because I told the siblings so many lies as a child that they never came to understand how the world works; it couldn't have anything to do with anyone's dysfunctional parenting!
Insofar as I have made peace with this obnoxiousness, my solution has been to think little of them, and to hold myself to a higher standard of mature interpersonal behavior. That I remain resentful may be pretty transparent.
posted by foursentences at 6:17 PM on December 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
I'm going to take it all one step further, since I already favorited so many answers above and nth everything conveyed to you thus far about the gaslighting-type tendencies of your family dynamic...
I became a lot less depressed in life when I pulled away from my family of origin and their shenanigans. And I know where you're at right now having to live with them and seek treatment. I guess YMMV, but after battling depression for a gazillion years, I realized A LOT of my troubles were caused by continuing to engage with folks who didn't respect me as they should (and I am talking about family here, although you will find yourself repeating the pattern with friends, jobs, and romantic partners.)
Again. YMMV. Yet I can't help recommend that you consider finding a way to support yourself and get away from these folks. You might surprise yourself by how empowering and truly stabilizing taking an action like that can be, rather than buying into the old family chestnuts that you are unstable, or an exaggerator, or whatever victim-y label happens to be popular within the family dynamic right now.
Good Luck.
posted by jbenben at 6:19 PM on December 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
I became a lot less depressed in life when I pulled away from my family of origin and their shenanigans. And I know where you're at right now having to live with them and seek treatment. I guess YMMV, but after battling depression for a gazillion years, I realized A LOT of my troubles were caused by continuing to engage with folks who didn't respect me as they should (and I am talking about family here, although you will find yourself repeating the pattern with friends, jobs, and romantic partners.)
Again. YMMV. Yet I can't help recommend that you consider finding a way to support yourself and get away from these folks. You might surprise yourself by how empowering and truly stabilizing taking an action like that can be, rather than buying into the old family chestnuts that you are unstable, or an exaggerator, or whatever victim-y label happens to be popular within the family dynamic right now.
Good Luck.
posted by jbenben at 6:19 PM on December 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
I know this well. My mother once beat me so badly she cracked the vertebrae in my neck and I was unable to return and finish high school that year. I brought it up with her years later and her flat-out denial of the beating and its aftermath was devastating and sent me into a tail-spin which lasted a couple of years. There are other events she also denies or ironically follows a denial with "well, you made me".
Trust your memories. Trust yourself. Do not trust your parents' or sibling's view of the physical and emotional assaults that happened to you. My mother for reasons of fear and guilt cannot acknowledge nor apologise for her treatment of me. I too felt very 'loyal' and was unable to accept for a long time that my mother was abusive - I kinda believed I brought it all on myself for not being perfect.
I've made up a mantra that honours my own truths and I keep it under my tongue. I don't engage in discussions where denials may arise and I keep an emotional distance from those I once sought acknowledgement and apologies from. It's the only way I can heal.
Get that second job, get a new home and get well. Don't think estrangement is inevitable - just take some (long) time out. Hopefully over the years you will be able to relate to your family on a safe level.
posted by Kerasia at 6:27 PM on December 16, 2010 [12 favorites]
Trust your memories. Trust yourself. Do not trust your parents' or sibling's view of the physical and emotional assaults that happened to you. My mother for reasons of fear and guilt cannot acknowledge nor apologise for her treatment of me. I too felt very 'loyal' and was unable to accept for a long time that my mother was abusive - I kinda believed I brought it all on myself for not being perfect.
I've made up a mantra that honours my own truths and I keep it under my tongue. I don't engage in discussions where denials may arise and I keep an emotional distance from those I once sought acknowledgement and apologies from. It's the only way I can heal.
Get that second job, get a new home and get well. Don't think estrangement is inevitable - just take some (long) time out. Hopefully over the years you will be able to relate to your family on a safe level.
posted by Kerasia at 6:27 PM on December 16, 2010 [12 favorites]
I have never been able to not care about my parents' behavior, and I've always had an inkling that we'll end up estranged one day, if I ever manage to plant my feet firmly enough on the ground that I could cut the cord.
Been there, felt that. You know what the amazing thing is? After the initial difficulty (great difficulty) and short period of estrangement that ensued while my family adjusted to me setting my boundaries... my relationship with them became better than it ever had been. Putting down your foot and not budging it, even slightly, does wonders for family relationships, believe you me.
The responses here have motivated me, at least, to try a little bit harder to get out of the immediate situation. Moving in with other family isn't really an option for cultural reasons, but I'm definitely going to consider picking up another job, both so I can save up enough money to move out and so that I don't have to spend as much time at home.
I can imagine that this is not easy with what you're going through at the moment, but a most excellent idea. Best of luck to you.
posted by braemar at 6:29 PM on December 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
Been there, felt that. You know what the amazing thing is? After the initial difficulty (great difficulty) and short period of estrangement that ensued while my family adjusted to me setting my boundaries... my relationship with them became better than it ever had been. Putting down your foot and not budging it, even slightly, does wonders for family relationships, believe you me.
The responses here have motivated me, at least, to try a little bit harder to get out of the immediate situation. Moving in with other family isn't really an option for cultural reasons, but I'm definitely going to consider picking up another job, both so I can save up enough money to move out and so that I don't have to spend as much time at home.
I can imagine that this is not easy with what you're going through at the moment, but a most excellent idea. Best of luck to you.
posted by braemar at 6:29 PM on December 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
My ex had a very abusive childhood. Many years later, she would occasionally bring something up to her mother (who she had generally little contact with). Her mom would not only deny it but act shocked, like she had no idea what my ex was talking about.
However, in this case she had actual documented evidence (hospital records), so there was no real question as to who was right.
Although in her case, I think her mom may genuinely not remember, due to her extensive substance abuse history. But it can be hard to tell that apart from a lie when you've got an abusive situation.
posted by wildcrdj at 6:51 PM on December 16, 2010
However, in this case she had actual documented evidence (hospital records), so there was no real question as to who was right.
Although in her case, I think her mom may genuinely not remember, due to her extensive substance abuse history. But it can be hard to tell that apart from a lie when you've got an abusive situation.
posted by wildcrdj at 6:51 PM on December 16, 2010
If you're still living at home and this type of thing is still occurring, would it make sense to start keeping a journal, especially as new bad things happen. That way, next year, when they deny the new thing, you'll have concrete proof. It's a long shot for the future, but it might make you feel better.
posted by CathyG at 7:04 PM on December 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by CathyG at 7:04 PM on December 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
most of the things I remember that are denied are related to ugly family situations
I'm so sorry, but what you're experiencing is sadly typical in abusive situations. It can be hard to feel that you want closure on a topic, especially with family members, and have them not only deny the things that you truthfully remember but almost act as if you made it up because such a negative thing about them could not possibly be true.
My experiences have been somewhat like Sara C's. I'll occasionally mention something about growing up, getting smacked, being afraid of my drunken dad, whatever. My mother will actually fight with me about this. So not only won't she be there saying "yeah I know it wasn't great, we did the best we could" or some platitude, she turns on me so that not only don't I get any empathy I'm treated like my remembering is the problem and if we'd only all agree to forget, things would be nice again.
This is, of course, bullshit. I am very lucky that I have a sister who is not quite as deep into the magical thinking as my folks are. At the same time, she's made the argument [and I agree with her] that my emotional memories about some things are ... sort of made more ugly in retrospect because of my family's continual denial about things and my anger at that. So I was a sensitive kid and I'm a sensitive adult and this sort of thing bugged me then and bothers me now. There's a sense in which I feel like my folks got away with being horrible to me because it was their word against mine and they deny my story. But really, that's not quite true. Other people believe me, I just have to step outside of the bad family bubble.
Back to you. Yes, you also need to step outside of the family bubble. I have a more distant relationship with my parents now which is actually mostly okay. We don't talk about the past much which means I don't drag thigns up and they don't bitch at me about it but at the same time I've sort of shut them out of my emotional life. Living somewhere else will give you some psychic space where you can figure out what the best next step is for you.
And again, I'm sorry. What you're relating is sadly typical, not at all unusual, in families with abusive histories.
posted by jessamyn at 7:32 PM on December 16, 2010 [8 favorites]
I'm so sorry, but what you're experiencing is sadly typical in abusive situations. It can be hard to feel that you want closure on a topic, especially with family members, and have them not only deny the things that you truthfully remember but almost act as if you made it up because such a negative thing about them could not possibly be true.
My experiences have been somewhat like Sara C's. I'll occasionally mention something about growing up, getting smacked, being afraid of my drunken dad, whatever. My mother will actually fight with me about this. So not only won't she be there saying "yeah I know it wasn't great, we did the best we could" or some platitude, she turns on me so that not only don't I get any empathy I'm treated like my remembering is the problem and if we'd only all agree to forget, things would be nice again.
This is, of course, bullshit. I am very lucky that I have a sister who is not quite as deep into the magical thinking as my folks are. At the same time, she's made the argument [and I agree with her] that my emotional memories about some things are ... sort of made more ugly in retrospect because of my family's continual denial about things and my anger at that. So I was a sensitive kid and I'm a sensitive adult and this sort of thing bugged me then and bothers me now. There's a sense in which I feel like my folks got away with being horrible to me because it was their word against mine and they deny my story. But really, that's not quite true. Other people believe me, I just have to step outside of the bad family bubble.
Back to you. Yes, you also need to step outside of the family bubble. I have a more distant relationship with my parents now which is actually mostly okay. We don't talk about the past much which means I don't drag thigns up and they don't bitch at me about it but at the same time I've sort of shut them out of my emotional life. Living somewhere else will give you some psychic space where you can figure out what the best next step is for you.
And again, I'm sorry. What you're relating is sadly typical, not at all unusual, in families with abusive histories.
posted by jessamyn at 7:32 PM on December 16, 2010 [8 favorites]
As you work through this with your therapist, I hope you will come to realize that your family doesn't have to believe what you know is the truth in order for it to be true.
I remember the relief and freedom I felt when when my parent who denied all my memories of abuse tried to guilt me with, "Well I did the best I could," and I was able to say, "But your best wasn't good enough."
Stay strong and be gentle with yourself. You're not the liar; you're the family historian.
posted by Linnee at 8:42 PM on December 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
I remember the relief and freedom I felt when when my parent who denied all my memories of abuse tried to guilt me with, "Well I did the best I could," and I was able to say, "But your best wasn't good enough."
Stay strong and be gentle with yourself. You're not the liar; you're the family historian.
posted by Linnee at 8:42 PM on December 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
You experience depression. Many forms of mental illness are influenced by heredity. Assume that they have their own version of mental illness, which they cannot deal with. When someone tells you something didn't happen, assume s/he is unable to confront certain facts because doing so would challenge them and force a change in their sense of self. I think it helps to be as compassionate as possible to people who likely experience a lot of depression. I'll bet there's alcoholism or other drug abuse in your family.
You won't win arguments about it, so stop trying. I'm not a believer in confrontation with parents unless the parents are open to listening. I think distance from your family is the best gift you could give yourself, but if you can't have physical distance, try for emotional distance. They can't be the loving, supportive family you want and need. They do not have that capacity, and, in fact, are showing you, explicitly, how hard they will try to silence you when you challenge the family dynamic. Disengage emotionally. Find a support group, friends, or talk to the dog if you must.
My brother labeled it "Revisionist History" when my Mom denied facts and created fake memories. She did it to ease her own pain, though it wasn't very successful.
To be honest, acting compassionately towards them tends to make liars uneasy as hell. I think you need an edge with them.
posted by theora55 at 10:00 PM on December 16, 2010
You won't win arguments about it, so stop trying. I'm not a believer in confrontation with parents unless the parents are open to listening. I think distance from your family is the best gift you could give yourself, but if you can't have physical distance, try for emotional distance. They can't be the loving, supportive family you want and need. They do not have that capacity, and, in fact, are showing you, explicitly, how hard they will try to silence you when you challenge the family dynamic. Disengage emotionally. Find a support group, friends, or talk to the dog if you must.
My brother labeled it "Revisionist History" when my Mom denied facts and created fake memories. She did it to ease her own pain, though it wasn't very successful.
To be honest, acting compassionately towards them tends to make liars uneasy as hell. I think you need an edge with them.
posted by theora55 at 10:00 PM on December 16, 2010
What ends up happening is that when I assert myself about anything (after consulting my therapist about a situation), my parents will downplay whatever happened by saying I'm exaggerating or making it up
You might find reading Susan Forward's Toxic Parents to be helpful. Here's the bit that this sentence makes me think of:
pp. 165-168
You might find reading Susan Forward's Toxic Parents to be helpful. Here's the bit that this sentence makes me think of:
pp. 165-168
The single most dramatic difference between healthy and toxic family systems is the amount of freedom that exists for family members to express themselves as individuals. Healthy families encourage individuality, personal responsibility, and independence. They encourage the development of their children's sense of adequacy and self-respect.posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 11:48 PM on December 16, 2010 [7 favorites]
Unhealthy families discourage individual expression. Everyone must conform to the thoughts and actions of the toxic parents. They promote fusion, a blurring of personal boundaries, a welding together of family members. . . . In their efforts to be close, they often suffocate one another's individuality.
In an enmeshed family you pay for intermittent feelings of approval and safety with your selfhood. For example, you may not be able to ask yourself, "Am I too tired to see my folks tonight?" Instead, you may have to ask, "If I don't go, will Dad get angry and hit Mom? Will Mom get drunk and pass out? Will they stop talking to me for the next month?" These questions arise because you already know how responsible you'll feel if any of these events occur. . . . You are not yourself, you are an appendage of your family system. . . .
When Fred tried to do something healthy for himself - something that the rest of the family disapproved of - his family formed a united front against him. He became the common enemy, the threat to the system. They attacked with anger, blame, and recrimination. Because he was so tied in to the family, the guilt he felt was enough to bring him back in line.
Enmeshment creates almost total dependence on approval and validation from outside yourself. Lovers, bosses, friends, even strangers become the stand-ins for parents. Adults like Kim who were raised in families where there was no permission to be an individual frequently became approval junkies, constantly seeking their next fix.
. . . A enmeshed family can maintain an illusion of love and stability as long as no one attempts to separate and as long as everyone follows the family rules. . . .
Every family creates its own balance to achieve some sort of stability. As long as family members interact in certain familiar and predictable ways, this balance, or equilibrium, is not upset.
The word balance implies serenity and order. But in a toxic family system, maintaining balance is like a precarious high-wire act. In such families, chaos is a way of life, becoming the only thing they can depend on. . . . toxic parents often fight the loss of equilibrium by increasing chaos. . . .
Michael is a perfect example. If his mother could create enough uproar in the family, Michael's guilt would drag him back to settle things down. He would do anything to restore the balance in the family, even if he had to surrender control over his own life. The more toxic the family, the less it takes to threaten it, and the more any imbalance seems like a threat to survival. That is why toxic parents may react to even minor deviations as if their lives were at stake. . . . most toxic parents respond to crisis with denial, secrecy, and, worst of all, blame. And that blame always targets the children.
In a relatively well-functioning family, parents tend to cope with life pressures by working out problems through openly communicating, exploring options, and not being afraid to seek outside help if they need it. Toxic parents, on the other hand, react to threats to their balance by acting out their fears and frustrations, with little thought for the consequences to their children. Among the most common:" Denial, projection, sabotage, triangling, keeping secrets.
Forgot the link. Toxic Parents.
I was raised with the "parents are infallible" model. This has always made it extremely difficult for me to take steps to distance myself from them, especially because every step I take away amps up the guilt tripping to the nth degree.
pp. 304-305
I was raised with the "parents are infallible" model. This has always made it extremely difficult for me to take steps to distance myself from them, especially because every step I take away amps up the guilt tripping to the nth degree.
pp. 304-305
What toxic parents call "love" rarely translates into nourishing, comforting behavior. . . . Most adult children of toxic parents grow up feeling tremendous confusion about what love means and how it's supposed to feel. Their parents did extremely unloving things to them in the name of love. They came to understand love as something chaotic, , dramatic, confusing, and often painful - something they had to give up their own dreams and desires for.posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 11:53 PM on December 16, 2010 [6 favorites]
When you were young, like all children, you used your parents' approval or disapproval as a gauge to determine whether you were good or bad. Because the approval of your toxic parents was so distorted, that gauge often required you to sacrifice your own version of reality in order to believe in something that didn't seem right to you. . . However, . . . you are shifting the source of your gauge from within your parents to within yourself. You are learning to trust yor own perception of reality. You will discover that even when your parents don't agree with you or don't approve of what you're doing, you will be able to tolerate the anxiety because you don't need their validation anymore. You are becoming self-defined.
Taking this a slightly different direction, it is well known that if you ask ten eyewitnesses to recall an event you will get ten different stories. Humans are not perfect observers and our memories were never meant to be perfect recording devices.
What we *do* tend to remember are events that affected us strongly. You remember these events because they are central to your life story. Each member of your family has their own life story going, and their own important memories. They may honestly not remember the incidents you are talking about.
This lack of shared memory tends to play out in a really ugly way in abusive families, but it is not restricted to them.
Case in point:
When I was about seven years old I was in the process of being physically abducted when chance intervened. It was an event in my life but I've never felt particularly affected by it.
My mother (a clinical psychologist with a special interest in child development) remembered it differently. She remembered the physical details differently as well as the supposed psychological aftermath.
Her insistence on her version of events grated on me for twenty-three years. The event itself meant little to me, the disagreement was a huge issue.
So at age thirty in therapy I decided to pin down what I could. I got in touch with the police department where I grew up, got the officer's case notes, called the other adults who were involved, etc.
In the end I certainly had a few details wrong but my mother's version was complete fiction. So I called her up so we could have the disagreement for the very last time.
Me: .... So that's the result of my research.
Mom: Well I'm glad you did all that research. It was an important event in your life.
Me: So you can see the sequence of events was x, y, z. Yes?
Mom: Yeah, but I think I'm going to keep on remembering it my way if that's okay with you.
Me: (stunned silence)
Mom: So what else have you been working on?
It took me another few weeks to collect myself enough to tell her that it was not okay with me and that she had better damned well honor my memory of the situation.
I was lucky here in that my mother was self aware enough to straight out tell me that she would not be adjusting her memory to match mine, and that when she was confronted with how important to it was to me she changed her tune.
Unfortunately you do not appear to have these luxuries, but you might want to keep in mind that the memories situation (while crazy making) is not the primary problem you are facing.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:05 AM on December 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
What we *do* tend to remember are events that affected us strongly. You remember these events because they are central to your life story. Each member of your family has their own life story going, and their own important memories. They may honestly not remember the incidents you are talking about.
This lack of shared memory tends to play out in a really ugly way in abusive families, but it is not restricted to them.
Case in point:
When I was about seven years old I was in the process of being physically abducted when chance intervened. It was an event in my life but I've never felt particularly affected by it.
My mother (a clinical psychologist with a special interest in child development) remembered it differently. She remembered the physical details differently as well as the supposed psychological aftermath.
Her insistence on her version of events grated on me for twenty-three years. The event itself meant little to me, the disagreement was a huge issue.
So at age thirty in therapy I decided to pin down what I could. I got in touch with the police department where I grew up, got the officer's case notes, called the other adults who were involved, etc.
In the end I certainly had a few details wrong but my mother's version was complete fiction. So I called her up so we could have the disagreement for the very last time.
Me: .... So that's the result of my research.
Mom: Well I'm glad you did all that research. It was an important event in your life.
Me: So you can see the sequence of events was x, y, z. Yes?
Mom: Yeah, but I think I'm going to keep on remembering it my way if that's okay with you.
Me: (stunned silence)
Mom: So what else have you been working on?
It took me another few weeks to collect myself enough to tell her that it was not okay with me and that she had better damned well honor my memory of the situation.
I was lucky here in that my mother was self aware enough to straight out tell me that she would not be adjusting her memory to match mine, and that when she was confronted with how important to it was to me she changed her tune.
Unfortunately you do not appear to have these luxuries, but you might want to keep in mind that the memories situation (while crazy making) is not the primary problem you are facing.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:05 AM on December 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
I have never been able to not care about my parents' behavior, and I've always had an inkling that we'll end up estranged one day, if I ever manage to plant my feet firmly enough on the ground that I could cut the cord
I've helped several folks get out of similarly abusive situations, and here's basically your options:
a) stay there trying to avoid estrangement, until things explode. (one person had her older brother come after her with a knife. Someone else had their father literally strangle them- they barely escaped with their life- at age 34.) Assuming you get out with your life, do not fall victim to violence (self inflicted or imposed), the estrangement at this point is permanent.
b) leave while you can, accept that there WILL be a period of estrangement, but that with time, it might be possible to connect again (because you get a stronger sense of self and true coping mechanisms and hopefully they work through some of their behaviors). This period typically takes 3-5 years.
This is pretty much the only two things I've seen go down.
Leaving, even if it requires calling in favors (or, if you have no favors, just asking for help, literally) will make your life better within a few months. The therapy will actually be more than trying to patch holes as your family continues to dig them, and you'll be making choices without people trying to sabotage you along the way.
posted by yeloson at 12:20 AM on December 17, 2010
I've helped several folks get out of similarly abusive situations, and here's basically your options:
a) stay there trying to avoid estrangement, until things explode. (one person had her older brother come after her with a knife. Someone else had their father literally strangle them- they barely escaped with their life- at age 34.) Assuming you get out with your life, do not fall victim to violence (self inflicted or imposed), the estrangement at this point is permanent.
b) leave while you can, accept that there WILL be a period of estrangement, but that with time, it might be possible to connect again (because you get a stronger sense of self and true coping mechanisms and hopefully they work through some of their behaviors). This period typically takes 3-5 years.
This is pretty much the only two things I've seen go down.
Leaving, even if it requires calling in favors (or, if you have no favors, just asking for help, literally) will make your life better within a few months. The therapy will actually be more than trying to patch holes as your family continues to dig them, and you'll be making choices without people trying to sabotage you along the way.
posted by yeloson at 12:20 AM on December 17, 2010
I've dealt with this too. My parents were both, in their own ways, abusive and dysfunctional. When I was in my twenties, I struggled a lot with reconciling my own memories with their flat-out denials or blame shifting (I deserved it because I brought it on myself).
As I grew older and my life became more separate from theirs and I got some clarity through distance, I realized that they would never own up to their failings nor to some of the truly horrible things they put me through and that if I were to bring it up, it would be me who ended up looking bad, and feeling worse for the experience. I adopted this mantra:
We decided to forgive and forget, I've decided to forgive, and they've decided to forget
posted by alltomorrowsparties at 1:29 AM on December 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
As I grew older and my life became more separate from theirs and I got some clarity through distance, I realized that they would never own up to their failings nor to some of the truly horrible things they put me through and that if I were to bring it up, it would be me who ended up looking bad, and feeling worse for the experience. I adopted this mantra:
We decided to forgive and forget, I've decided to forgive, and they've decided to forget
posted by alltomorrowsparties at 1:29 AM on December 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
I came from an abusive household and my mother used to do this very thing. When reminded by both me and my sister of a time when she beat me so hard with a plastic spatula that it broke, she flat out denied it for many years.
I think it comes from a place of shame. It's extremely likely that your parents and sister are very ashamed of the way they acted, and rather than simply accept responsibility for their shameful acts (physical abuse and homophobia in your case), they'd rather deny reality. It's extremely dysfunctional. I really recommend that you extricate yourself from living with them as soon as you possibly can.
Also, this is very much a learned dysfunction so it makes perfect sense that your sister is doing it too now. I was fortunate in that while my mom took great joy in playing me and my sister against one another as children, as an adult she's now able to see just how dysfunctional our upbringing was, so she'd never support this kind of behavior now.
The key thing here though, is that you really have zero power to change them. I know that seems horrible, but you really only have power over yourself. They might always think of you as a liar who exaggerates your wounds to get attention or whatever, but only you have the power to not buy into that. The instinct we have as humans is to place greater weight on the words and judgments of our family members. For the majority of people, this works out fine, because while nobody's family is perfect, most genuinely care about each other and act in each others best interest. But for those of us who grew up in dysfunctional families, it's a recipe for disaster and years of emotional turmoil where you doubt your basic worth as a human being. You need to internalize the idea that the way your family operates is clinically insane. Therefore nothing they say about you can really be trusted. In literature, they'd be referred to as unreliable narrators. If three random crazy people came up to you on the street and called you a manipulative liar, would you believe them? Of course not. You need to learn to think of your family in the same way. In reality it is their disease, not yours, that prevents them from ever seeing you or the past, present, and future clearly.
posted by katyggls at 2:03 AM on December 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
I think it comes from a place of shame. It's extremely likely that your parents and sister are very ashamed of the way they acted, and rather than simply accept responsibility for their shameful acts (physical abuse and homophobia in your case), they'd rather deny reality. It's extremely dysfunctional. I really recommend that you extricate yourself from living with them as soon as you possibly can.
Also, this is very much a learned dysfunction so it makes perfect sense that your sister is doing it too now. I was fortunate in that while my mom took great joy in playing me and my sister against one another as children, as an adult she's now able to see just how dysfunctional our upbringing was, so she'd never support this kind of behavior now.
The key thing here though, is that you really have zero power to change them. I know that seems horrible, but you really only have power over yourself. They might always think of you as a liar who exaggerates your wounds to get attention or whatever, but only you have the power to not buy into that. The instinct we have as humans is to place greater weight on the words and judgments of our family members. For the majority of people, this works out fine, because while nobody's family is perfect, most genuinely care about each other and act in each others best interest. But for those of us who grew up in dysfunctional families, it's a recipe for disaster and years of emotional turmoil where you doubt your basic worth as a human being. You need to internalize the idea that the way your family operates is clinically insane. Therefore nothing they say about you can really be trusted. In literature, they'd be referred to as unreliable narrators. If three random crazy people came up to you on the street and called you a manipulative liar, would you believe them? Of course not. You need to learn to think of your family in the same way. In reality it is their disease, not yours, that prevents them from ever seeing you or the past, present, and future clearly.
posted by katyggls at 2:03 AM on December 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
As everyone has mentioned, this is a classic case that follows a pattern type. It's the story of my life, too. Your memories are very liekly accurate; just from reading your description they sound too specific to be fabricated. The details like the watch falling off? You didn’t make that up. Truth is stranger than fiction.
Your parents remember. People are giving them the benefit of the doubt, but I bet they remember. The reason why they are so shocked is probably because they really thought YOU wouldn’t remember. They thought “he’s just a kid, it’s a phase; he’ll forget this by next week.” In fact, that might contribute to why they did the things they did. But they remember. My mother does the exact same denial thing, and even she, when I really have had enough of it, will finally say something like “well, I had to do it, we had no other choice. You were happy at the time, why does it bother you now?” Mind you this is after she blatantly denied it ever occured.
For me, moving out of my hometown-out of state, halfway across the country- drastically changed me for the better.
posted by Nixy at 2:14 AM on December 17, 2010
Your parents remember. People are giving them the benefit of the doubt, but I bet they remember. The reason why they are so shocked is probably because they really thought YOU wouldn’t remember. They thought “he’s just a kid, it’s a phase; he’ll forget this by next week.” In fact, that might contribute to why they did the things they did. But they remember. My mother does the exact same denial thing, and even she, when I really have had enough of it, will finally say something like “well, I had to do it, we had no other choice. You were happy at the time, why does it bother you now?” Mind you this is after she blatantly denied it ever occured.
For me, moving out of my hometown-out of state, halfway across the country- drastically changed me for the better.
posted by Nixy at 2:14 AM on December 17, 2010
I experienced this too. The best thing I ever did was to get away from my parents, physically, emotionally, spiritually -- in every way possible. Estrangement is only scary when you are still enmeshed. Later, it just feels like... freedom.
posted by alternateuniverse at 2:45 AM on December 17, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by alternateuniverse at 2:45 AM on December 17, 2010 [4 favorites]
You've gotten a lot of good advise here. I'm not really equipped to speak to your family dynamic, but I will offer this: memories are weird. This goes both ways. It is possible, and even likely, that they have forgotten things that they don't want to remember. But they're not lying exactly - they probably really don't remember them. It's also possible, and even likely, that a few of your memories are exaggerated or even entirely made up. This doesn't make you a liar or a bad person, and it doesn't make you unreliable. It's just a thing that everyone does. False memories are actually very easy to create, especially if they come out of an unstable environment, which is what it sounds like you had. So, my point is, you're probably right about all of these things, but even if you're wrong about a couple of them, that only makes you human.
posted by Ragged Richard at 7:09 AM on December 17, 2010
posted by Ragged Richard at 7:09 AM on December 17, 2010
I just want to buoy all that was said previously. Whenever things come up that are uncomfortable, my mother says things like, "Well, it's not like you were abused." When, in fact, my siblings and I were abused.
It's like a Jedi mind trick, it worked on my younger sister for a few years until she got married and started seeing the patterns through her husband's eyes and suddenly woke up to everything we had been through. It was hard, for a long time not only having my parents, but also my sister against me.
Now my sister is my ally. It is wonderful to be able to check in with someone and have them say, "No, that really happened." Someday, perhaps your sibling(s) will open their eyes. Until then, you are the strong one. The one who hasn't fallen prey to their games.
The stronger you are, the more they will try this crap, which, if you play it right, will only make you stronger and more able to get out on your own and free from all of the games you don't even know they are playing right now.
I wish you all the best. It gets better.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:47 AM on December 17, 2010
It's like a Jedi mind trick, it worked on my younger sister for a few years until she got married and started seeing the patterns through her husband's eyes and suddenly woke up to everything we had been through. It was hard, for a long time not only having my parents, but also my sister against me.
Now my sister is my ally. It is wonderful to be able to check in with someone and have them say, "No, that really happened." Someday, perhaps your sibling(s) will open their eyes. Until then, you are the strong one. The one who hasn't fallen prey to their games.
The stronger you are, the more they will try this crap, which, if you play it right, will only make you stronger and more able to get out on your own and free from all of the games you don't even know they are playing right now.
I wish you all the best. It gets better.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:47 AM on December 17, 2010
One thing that might help - don't trust your memories. Trust evidence. Go through whatever you might have that supports the history you remember – emails, postcards, medical records, whatever. Is there anyone still at the local LGBT Center who can help you? Once you know where you are coming from, then you won't have to doubt yourself when they question you.
What exactly do you mean by asserting yourself after consulting your therapist about a situation – I can’t imagine a therapist is asking you to confront anyone. I’m hoping you mean that your are just being autonomous and holding your own when your family members try to push buttons or whatever they might do.
You are in therapy. Your family is not. I am pretty sure that there will not be a day when you report back from therapy and your family suddenly sees the light and changes instantly, or even acknowledges that you may have a point.
My advice is to mostly lay low until you can leave and spend some time focusing on how they treat you now. (Which is difficult, I know - because your post says how they treat you now is as if they think they're being generous with someone who is unreliable. That’s galling and hard to get past. Like alltomorrowsparties says, you have to forgive and there are sticking with forgetting.)
posted by Lesser Shrew at 7:52 AM on December 17, 2010
What exactly do you mean by asserting yourself after consulting your therapist about a situation – I can’t imagine a therapist is asking you to confront anyone. I’m hoping you mean that your are just being autonomous and holding your own when your family members try to push buttons or whatever they might do.
You are in therapy. Your family is not. I am pretty sure that there will not be a day when you report back from therapy and your family suddenly sees the light and changes instantly, or even acknowledges that you may have a point.
My advice is to mostly lay low until you can leave and spend some time focusing on how they treat you now. (Which is difficult, I know - because your post says how they treat you now is as if they think they're being generous with someone who is unreliable. That’s galling and hard to get past. Like alltomorrowsparties says, you have to forgive and there are sticking with forgetting.)
posted by Lesser Shrew at 7:52 AM on December 17, 2010
My family does this too, and for a long time I believed them and just figured I'd remembered wrong. What I have, that you don't, is a brother who has a fantastic memory. It's been such a sanity saver, I can't tell you. I'll tentatively say, "I remember X, and Mom says it never happened. Do you remember anything like X?" And he'll say, "Not only X! But Y & Z!" and suddenly my memory will all come back. I have forgotten huge chunks of time, out of self-defense, I'm convinced. It was easier to forget it and accept my parents' version of reality than to have to reconcile two realities. My brother must have spent a lot of his early adulthood as isolated as you feel right now.
I really don't believe my parents are gaslighting me- they just remember things the way they wish it had happened. Also, things that were huge deals to me and my brother weren't that big of a deal to them because they had so much drama of their own going on.
posted by small_ruminant at 10:31 AM on December 17, 2010
I really don't believe my parents are gaslighting me- they just remember things the way they wish it had happened. Also, things that were huge deals to me and my brother weren't that big of a deal to them because they had so much drama of their own going on.
posted by small_ruminant at 10:31 AM on December 17, 2010
First of all, thank you for posting this question. Reading about your experience with your family helps me accept the troubling reality of my own. I know how hard it is to trust yourself when the people you look to for love and acceptance tell you that there's something wrong with you. I'm so sorry.
You need support outside of your family. Support groups of any sort. Meet-ups. Buddhist centers. Depression support groups. I'd advise that you go to them. I think with families like this, it's important to resist the temptation to reject them in an obvious way. You will be tempted to let them know that they are wrong, that they are seriously damaging, that they're a pretty lousy family. But your efforts to show them how wrong they are will only cause you pain. It's what happened when you were a kid and it is what would happen now. When you show them that they're wrong, they will react by trying to hurt and discredit you. This is why you feel crazy. You perceive an action taken by a family member as questionable, something they do may not be a "right" action. But they do not like being questioned. So they manipulate the situation so that you appear to be the problem, so that you are the one who is wrong. When you try to show them they have been wrong, they will come with more force to prove that you are crazy. You aren't crazy. You need a new family. I hope you find one.
posted by Ventre Mou at 10:38 AM on December 17, 2010
You need support outside of your family. Support groups of any sort. Meet-ups. Buddhist centers. Depression support groups. I'd advise that you go to them. I think with families like this, it's important to resist the temptation to reject them in an obvious way. You will be tempted to let them know that they are wrong, that they are seriously damaging, that they're a pretty lousy family. But your efforts to show them how wrong they are will only cause you pain. It's what happened when you were a kid and it is what would happen now. When you show them that they're wrong, they will react by trying to hurt and discredit you. This is why you feel crazy. You perceive an action taken by a family member as questionable, something they do may not be a "right" action. But they do not like being questioned. So they manipulate the situation so that you appear to be the problem, so that you are the one who is wrong. When you try to show them they have been wrong, they will come with more force to prove that you are crazy. You aren't crazy. You need a new family. I hope you find one.
posted by Ventre Mou at 10:38 AM on December 17, 2010
Nth'ing that you are not crazy. Believe us that it really does get better. I have sent you MeMail.
posted by ssqq at 6:57 PM on December 17, 2010
posted by ssqq at 6:57 PM on December 17, 2010
Three years ago, there was a question with an almost identical title. The conclusions we drew then were very different from the ones we're drawing now.
posted by MrMoonPie at 7:31 PM on December 17, 2010
posted by MrMoonPie at 7:31 PM on December 17, 2010
The situation was also very different from what the OP describes. One really big difference is that one of the OP's examples is something that happened when he was a teenager. Another is that these are all things that can actually happen. Not only that, but they're things that really resonated with a lot of the answerers.
posted by Sara C. at 7:58 PM on December 17, 2010
posted by Sara C. at 7:58 PM on December 17, 2010
Hello, therapist here. I'm not here to say that the OP DOESN'T have an abusive family, because I don't know that, but I'm here to say people in this thread are remarkably quick to jump to the word abuse, and to the conclusion that the OP's family is conspiring to gaslight him. I remember reading in one of my psychology texts that it's surprisingly common that non-abusive parents forget memories of ever slapping/smacking their children, especially if it happened only once or twice. The sister situation? Is it not possible that after the shock of her brother coming out wore off for a conservative immigrant, she educated herself and shifted in her opinions, such that she not only now supports the LGBT center, but cannot remember ever objecting to it? Certainly from the description, it sounds like they talk about it openly now, but that it was a disaster back then.
I'm not saying the OP isn't being abused or that he isn't having seriously frustrating and hurtful problems with his family, but I am saying on the basis of these two examples, I don't think anyone needs to get into his head that he necessarily is. Diagnosing abuse over internet on the basis of two examples = not helpful.
OP - frustrating and hurtful, and sounds like it's making you feel isolated in your family. Ever been in family therapy?
posted by namesarehard at 1:36 PM on December 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
I'm not saying the OP isn't being abused or that he isn't having seriously frustrating and hurtful problems with his family, but I am saying on the basis of these two examples, I don't think anyone needs to get into his head that he necessarily is. Diagnosing abuse over internet on the basis of two examples = not helpful.
OP - frustrating and hurtful, and sounds like it's making you feel isolated in your family. Ever been in family therapy?
posted by namesarehard at 1:36 PM on December 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
Hm, my friend brings up a point worth acknowledging: my message isn't that I'm a therapist and thus I know better what's going on here. My message is that it's actually my job to diagnose, and I'd be extremely, extremely cautious about even suggesting abuse on the basis of this post, so I really wish others would be cautious, too.
posted by namesarehard at 2:26 PM on December 18, 2010
posted by namesarehard at 2:26 PM on December 18, 2010
My parents are Iranian immigrants, and I was raised with the "parents are infallible" model.
I so get this. I have one parent who was an Iranian immigrant (and whose culture was, by far, the dominant one in my house), and one parent who was a victim of long-term abuse as a child and consequently represses upsetting events (everything from her history of abuse to things in the present) to the point that she honestly, truly believes that they never happened. So. Just to throw out there, I guess, that the denial of those memories may not be 100% deliberate on the part of your family.
MeMail me if you ever want to talk about how the Iranian cultural conditioning about parents can mess with your head.
posted by devotion+doubt at 12:22 PM on December 19, 2010
I so get this. I have one parent who was an Iranian immigrant (and whose culture was, by far, the dominant one in my house), and one parent who was a victim of long-term abuse as a child and consequently represses upsetting events (everything from her history of abuse to things in the present) to the point that she honestly, truly believes that they never happened. So. Just to throw out there, I guess, that the denial of those memories may not be 100% deliberate on the part of your family.
MeMail me if you ever want to talk about how the Iranian cultural conditioning about parents can mess with your head.
posted by devotion+doubt at 12:22 PM on December 19, 2010
Mod note: folks this sort of has to wrap up here. OP is asking about how to deal with a specific family situation not "is this abuse or not?"
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 12:51 PM on December 19, 2010
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 12:51 PM on December 19, 2010
I know I am 6 months late but I have joined just to say thank you for this thread. I am 45 year old female. I had a difficult but not awful childhood with a domineering father and passive aggressive mother, both conservative christians. I have maintained and improved my relationship with them over the years-years of drinking, therapy, poverty and loneliness. I consider myself to have conquered many of my demons, I am independent and I have followed some of my dreams and learned how to get up and keep going and I am very proud of myself.
But every now, like today, I visit my parents and make an innocuous comment about the past and find that my memory of my childhood is denied. So according to them my friends did not stay in my parents house in 1990(they did), my mother did not say afterwards that if she had known one of them was gay she'd never have let them in the house(she did), myself and my sisters were allowed to have boyfriends(we weren't), my parents didn't smack me(they did)and so on and so on. My iron fisted father has been repainted as a softy liberal my mother as a long suffering angel. So much for christians and honesty.
I see advice here to avoid big issues but I do this when I go home, I no longer express my unwelcome opinions, I no longer challenge or argue but it is impossible to completely avoid mentioning the past and usually this situation arises when I make a completely innocent remark. And it hurts. And there is nothing I can do about it. I have done the therapy, read the books, made the effort. I do refute some of their claims where I can but not too aggressively to avoid arguments and also because I am rarely prepared for people who claim to love me to sit there laughing and calling me a liar. Its flabbergasting.
My parents are not bad I just wish they were strong enough that they didn't have to crush me to make themselves look good. I am glad I didn't have children because I would hate to find I was capable of doing this to anyone. I am so relieved to find my experience shared. So grateful to read all the wonderful comments and advice. I feel less alone, less angry and hurt than I did 30 minutes ago.
Thank you.
posted by piratepotato at 1:11 PM on July 7, 2011
But every now, like today, I visit my parents and make an innocuous comment about the past and find that my memory of my childhood is denied. So according to them my friends did not stay in my parents house in 1990(they did), my mother did not say afterwards that if she had known one of them was gay she'd never have let them in the house(she did), myself and my sisters were allowed to have boyfriends(we weren't), my parents didn't smack me(they did)and so on and so on. My iron fisted father has been repainted as a softy liberal my mother as a long suffering angel. So much for christians and honesty.
I see advice here to avoid big issues but I do this when I go home, I no longer express my unwelcome opinions, I no longer challenge or argue but it is impossible to completely avoid mentioning the past and usually this situation arises when I make a completely innocent remark. And it hurts. And there is nothing I can do about it. I have done the therapy, read the books, made the effort. I do refute some of their claims where I can but not too aggressively to avoid arguments and also because I am rarely prepared for people who claim to love me to sit there laughing and calling me a liar. Its flabbergasting.
My parents are not bad I just wish they were strong enough that they didn't have to crush me to make themselves look good. I am glad I didn't have children because I would hate to find I was capable of doing this to anyone. I am so relieved to find my experience shared. So grateful to read all the wonderful comments and advice. I feel less alone, less angry and hurt than I did 30 minutes ago.
Thank you.
posted by piratepotato at 1:11 PM on July 7, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by limeonaire at 4:52 PM on December 16, 2010 [43 favorites]