Please don't take my car, A-hole.
December 13, 2010 12:10 PM Subscribe
My sister took her car to a mechanic, expressly told them not to do anything that would cost any money before contacting her. They agreed, and then did not follow. They ran an engine diagnostic, charged her for it, without her permission, and now refuse to return her car before she pays the bill. She does not have money to pay the bill. They have had the car for a week, and soon the mechanic is going to apply for the title of her car. She needs help. More inside.
We've researched it, and mechanics are allowed to keep your vehicle if you have an unpaid balance. But they had a verbal agreement to not do anything that would cost money. She's spoken to everyone, including owner, and they all have said "oh well, we did it anyway and now you have to pay us, or you don't get your car." This is obviously very unethical. And now they are going to file to take possession of her car. We need advice, resources, anything. We live in southeastern Virginia, United States.
We've researched it, and mechanics are allowed to keep your vehicle if you have an unpaid balance. But they had a verbal agreement to not do anything that would cost money. She's spoken to everyone, including owner, and they all have said "oh well, we did it anyway and now you have to pay us, or you don't get your car." This is obviously very unethical. And now they are going to file to take possession of her car. We need advice, resources, anything. We live in southeastern Virginia, United States.
Wasn't it expected that they would do SOMETHING to the car if she was dropping it off, even just "storing" it taking up space in their shop? What were they going to do for free? I'm sorry, I just don't understand the question. Did they specifically tell her they would do the diagnostic for free? It sounds like they assumed she meant not to take any remedial action for whatever they found, and they complied with that.
posted by fiercecupcake at 12:13 PM on December 13, 2010 [22 favorites]
posted by fiercecupcake at 12:13 PM on December 13, 2010 [22 favorites]
I assume the car had problems or she would not have taken it to the mechanic. She probably asked them not to do any repairs without contacting her. In order to figure out what was wrong with the car so that they could tell her how much the repairs would cost they did a diagnostic test. So I don't really see the problem, she should pay them for that test.
posted by mareli at 12:15 PM on December 13, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by mareli at 12:15 PM on December 13, 2010 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: That was one of the first things we did. They said what we'd already found out, which is that mechanics are allowed to keep vehicles when there is an unpaid balance. They suggested going to civil court and filing, but we don't really know that process, nor do we have the money for a lawyer or court fees. Advice on that would be appreciated, too.
posted by shesaysgo at 12:15 PM on December 13, 2010
posted by shesaysgo at 12:15 PM on December 13, 2010
Also, publicity is your friend. Contact the local paper: these are the kinds of stories alt-weeklies thrive on. Ditto local congressperson, chamber of commerce and any local bloggers. When the local gas utility ignored our broken meter for over a year and then tried to drop a $2000 bill on us, things turned around super-quickly once the local alt-weekly and congressman's office started pestering their office with calls. In fact, as it turned out, the public utilities commission had just passed something that would prevent them from doing just this very thing, and we ended up with an apology and a bill CREDIT from them.
They may (and probably have!) already done this to someone else, so it's a story just waiting to happen.
Check to see if they belong to any other local groups (business associations, etc), too.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 12:16 PM on December 13, 2010 [6 favorites]
They may (and probably have!) already done this to someone else, so it's a story just waiting to happen.
Check to see if they belong to any other local groups (business associations, etc), too.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 12:16 PM on December 13, 2010 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: No, as I said previously, she said, very, very explicitly, do not do ANYTHING that would cost money. Not "don't do repairs", like some of you are wrongly assuming. They had an agreement, period. Whether it makes sense to any of you is irrelevant. The fact is, they had a verbal agreement and it was broken, and now we need advice on the next steps to take.
posted by shesaysgo at 12:18 PM on December 13, 2010
posted by shesaysgo at 12:18 PM on December 13, 2010
shesaysgo - I know you're looking for advice on how to wrest the car away from the garage, but I'm going to join the chorus of "um... what??"
How could they have possibly told her anything without performing some work? I would LOVE a mechanic that could wave a wand over a car and know what to do, but that's not the world we live in. I think y'all are being a bit unreasonable.
posted by FlamingBore at 12:19 PM on December 13, 2010 [20 favorites]
How could they have possibly told her anything without performing some work? I would LOVE a mechanic that could wave a wand over a car and know what to do, but that's not the world we live in. I think y'all are being a bit unreasonable.
posted by FlamingBore at 12:19 PM on December 13, 2010 [20 favorites]
Yeah, standard practice for a mechanic is to do diagnostics, for which they charge a fee, and then to contact the owner should any repairs be necessary.
Many mechanics will count the diagnostic fee against any repair work.
A reputable mechanic should have issued your sister a quote detailing all of this, which she would have then signed. Did she sign anything?
How much do they want?
posted by mr_roboto at 12:19 PM on December 13, 2010 [3 favorites]
Many mechanics will count the diagnostic fee against any repair work.
A reputable mechanic should have issued your sister a quote detailing all of this, which she would have then signed. Did she sign anything?
How much do they want?
posted by mr_roboto at 12:19 PM on December 13, 2010 [3 favorites]
What did she ask them to do? Most mechanics I've been to recently have a pretty explicit diagnostic fee posted, so it's not totally clear what she expected to happen or what they thought she was asking for.
posted by restless_nomad at 12:19 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by restless_nomad at 12:19 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
Agreed with the above - mechanics are not "car psychics." It costs them time and labor to diagnose a problem, and they deserve to get paid for their time and labor. Neither is a shop a free long-term parking space for cars that aren't being worked on.
If they weren't even supposed to run a diagnostic test, what exactly were they supposed to do with it that wouldn't cost your sister any money?
posted by keep it under cover at 12:20 PM on December 13, 2010 [4 favorites]
If they weren't even supposed to run a diagnostic test, what exactly were they supposed to do with it that wouldn't cost your sister any money?
posted by keep it under cover at 12:20 PM on December 13, 2010 [4 favorites]
@restless_nomad they have not stolen her car.
If you can get them to admit in writing that they we're not supposed to do this you may have a case. My advice (obv. IANAL) is to pay the bill and to take them to small claims court. You can also try to get them to severely discount the cost of the diagnostic considering they f'ed up. You can also do some more research on how this would work legally. I'm assuming there would have to be some sort of hearing before they take the title, at which point you can try to mount a defense.
posted by pyro979 at 12:22 PM on December 13, 2010
If you can get them to admit in writing that they we're not supposed to do this you may have a case. My advice (obv. IANAL) is to pay the bill and to take them to small claims court. You can also try to get them to severely discount the cost of the diagnostic considering they f'ed up. You can also do some more research on how this would work legally. I'm assuming there would have to be some sort of hearing before they take the title, at which point you can try to mount a defense.
posted by pyro979 at 12:22 PM on December 13, 2010
Why exactly is she dropping the car off at mechanic with explicit instructions to not even look at the car? Diagnosing the problem takes time and expertise. Both of those usually cost money. The diagnostic test is basically automated and takes 30 seconds. It's kind of a dick move by the mechanic to hold the car if this really was a simple misunderstanding. That said, you probably don't want this shop doing the work anyway given that attitude. So I'd pay the $100 odd bucks for the diagnostic test, get my car back, and consider it a lesson learned.
posted by COD at 12:23 PM on December 13, 2010 [11 favorites]
posted by COD at 12:23 PM on December 13, 2010 [11 favorites]
Mechanics charge both for parts and for labor. And the time taken to diagnose a problem will often be rolled into the labor charges, for obvious reasons. Even if they didn't do any actual repairs, diagnosis of the problem is not free. Consider: a visit to a doctor will cost you, even if you don't get treatment. A mechanic is basically a doctor for your car.
This is not unethical behavior on the part of the mechanic. This is your sister not understanding that taking the car to a mechanic would almost certainly result in some cost to her. If a problem is blindingly obvious, a mechanic might diagnose at no cost, but if they spend some time and effort to figure out what the problem is, they deserve fair compensation for that.
The mechanic wants to be paid for services rendered. They don't want the car, or the hassle of filing the lien and all the resulting paperwork to enforce their rights through the legal system. Your sister should go back to the mechanic, hat in hand, and work out a payment plan of some sort.
posted by ambrosia at 12:28 PM on December 13, 2010 [3 favorites]
This is not unethical behavior on the part of the mechanic. This is your sister not understanding that taking the car to a mechanic would almost certainly result in some cost to her. If a problem is blindingly obvious, a mechanic might diagnose at no cost, but if they spend some time and effort to figure out what the problem is, they deserve fair compensation for that.
The mechanic wants to be paid for services rendered. They don't want the car, or the hassle of filing the lien and all the resulting paperwork to enforce their rights through the legal system. Your sister should go back to the mechanic, hat in hand, and work out a payment plan of some sort.
posted by ambrosia at 12:28 PM on December 13, 2010 [3 favorites]
Best answer: IANYL but look at Virginia's Automobile Repair Facilities Act. It states that the mechanic can run diagnostic work in order to come up with the estimate.
posted by statsgirl at 12:31 PM on December 13, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by statsgirl at 12:31 PM on December 13, 2010 [3 favorites]
Whether it makes sense to any of you is irrelevant.
If you plan to pursue this via publicizing it, or indeed via legal avenues, the fact that your dilemma doesn't seem to make sense to a randomly selected bunch of probably fairly intelligent people is totally relevant, actually. If, say, the mechanic did agree to look at the car for free, that's a relatively unusual circumstance you should clarify here and will definitely need to clarify with anyone you try to persuade of the merits of the case in the wider world.
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 12:31 PM on December 13, 2010 [26 favorites]
If you plan to pursue this via publicizing it, or indeed via legal avenues, the fact that your dilemma doesn't seem to make sense to a randomly selected bunch of probably fairly intelligent people is totally relevant, actually. If, say, the mechanic did agree to look at the car for free, that's a relatively unusual circumstance you should clarify here and will definitely need to clarify with anyone you try to persuade of the merits of the case in the wider world.
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 12:31 PM on December 13, 2010 [26 favorites]
shesaysgo - I know you're looking for advice on how to wrest the car away from the garage, but I'm going to join the chorus of "um... what??"
How could they have possibly told her anything without performing some work? I would LOVE a mechanic that could wave a wand over a car and know what to do, but that's not the world we live in. I think y'all are being a bit unreasonable.
Plenty of mechanics will check various stuff (brakes, oil, exhaust, etc) for free (on the expectation, of course that they can then sell a oil change or new brake discs or whatever). It's not an unreasonble thing to think that a mechanic can check over a car for free, especially if they have verbally agreed to do exactly that.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 12:32 PM on December 13, 2010 [7 favorites]
How could they have possibly told her anything without performing some work? I would LOVE a mechanic that could wave a wand over a car and know what to do, but that's not the world we live in. I think y'all are being a bit unreasonable.
Plenty of mechanics will check various stuff (brakes, oil, exhaust, etc) for free (on the expectation, of course that they can then sell a oil change or new brake discs or whatever). It's not an unreasonble thing to think that a mechanic can check over a car for free, especially if they have verbally agreed to do exactly that.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 12:32 PM on December 13, 2010 [7 favorites]
Whether it makes sense to any of you is irrelevant.
It is, in fact, relevant. If we don't see the actual problem, and believe your sister to be at fault, then we won't have any constructive suggestions. The issue needs to be clarified.
posted by greta simone at 12:32 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
It is, in fact, relevant. If we don't see the actual problem, and believe your sister to be at fault, then we won't have any constructive suggestions. The issue needs to be clarified.
posted by greta simone at 12:32 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Here in Jersey, there's this neat little law that calls this behavior 'Consumer Fraud' and it provides for treble damages (the shop would owe your sister three times whatever fee they are wrongly attempting to charge her). (Gross simplifaction, but you get the idea.) She specifically stated: do nothing that will cost money. At that point, the onus was on the shop to say: "Hey, just running a diagnostic costs money." They didn't do that and didn't get her permission to spend her money.
I haven't a clue whether Virginia has a consumer fraud act, but it might be worth it to google around for that.
posted by LOLAttorney2009 at 12:32 PM on December 13, 2010 [6 favorites]
I haven't a clue whether Virginia has a consumer fraud act, but it might be worth it to google around for that.
posted by LOLAttorney2009 at 12:32 PM on December 13, 2010 [6 favorites]
Whenever I drop off my car I have to sign something that says they are going to do X, even if it is diagnostic. "Check squeaky brakes" and such. Then they call and say what the costs are to fix etc.
While I agree that it is nonsensical to drop off a car and say "don't do anything" if indeed she didn't sign anything authorizing any work including diagnostics, she might have a case in small claims court, depending on the laws of your state, what signage there might be in the garage, etc.
So, pay to get the car back if you can't convince a police officer they are holding the car illegally then file in small claims court if you think you can win your case.
posted by mikepop at 12:34 PM on December 13, 2010
While I agree that it is nonsensical to drop off a car and say "don't do anything" if indeed she didn't sign anything authorizing any work including diagnostics, she might have a case in small claims court, depending on the laws of your state, what signage there might be in the garage, etc.
So, pay to get the car back if you can't convince a police officer they are holding the car illegally then file in small claims court if you think you can win your case.
posted by mikepop at 12:34 PM on December 13, 2010
How much is the mechanic asking for for diagnostics? Surely its worth getting the car back now then taking them to court to get the money later?
posted by fshgrl at 12:34 PM on December 13, 2010
posted by fshgrl at 12:34 PM on December 13, 2010
Wait, is this the same car? It appears that you were looking for a free diagnostic/estimate, which is different from "don't do any cost-bearing work without asking me first". Was your sister explicit about this? I hate to say it, but I've never heard of a free car diagnostic/estimate apart from on Car Talk or from a family member or friend.
posted by pammeke at 12:35 PM on December 13, 2010
posted by pammeke at 12:35 PM on December 13, 2010
Response by poster: Everyone, please stop wasting space trying to explain to me that It's reasonable for a mechanic to charge for an engine diagnostic. I agree that it's reasonable, except in this instance where he said he wouldn't do anything that would cost money. If he wasn't willing to give her a free estimate, he should have said so, so he can take her car elsewhere. I've been to plenty of mechanics that do free estimates.
posted by shesaysgo at 12:39 PM on December 13, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by shesaysgo at 12:39 PM on December 13, 2010 [3 favorites]
So your sister went to a mechanic and asked for a free emissions test, and then they did other tests without her authorization and billed her for them and are holding the car hostage?
And the police say "Well, you have a bill with these folks" even though the mechanic can't produce any paperwork that proves that your sister authorized the tests or the bill in question?
Go over the head of whatever officer it is who said it was OK for the mechanic to hold the car. If your sister didn't sign anything authorizing them to do that work, I don't see how they can show that the debt is valid.
IANAL, but I am a business owner, and you really can't collect on debts that you don't have authorization to bill for.
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:40 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
And the police say "Well, you have a bill with these folks" even though the mechanic can't produce any paperwork that proves that your sister authorized the tests or the bill in question?
Go over the head of whatever officer it is who said it was OK for the mechanic to hold the car. If your sister didn't sign anything authorizing them to do that work, I don't see how they can show that the debt is valid.
IANAL, but I am a business owner, and you really can't collect on debts that you don't have authorization to bill for.
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:40 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
Well, then what are you looking for here? You said the mechanic disagrees that they had a verbal agreement not to charge for anything. You said the police told you there's nothing they can do except get to get a lawyer. You say you can't get a lawyer. People have told you to contact the press and try that. What else are you looking for?
posted by proj at 12:41 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by proj at 12:41 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
I mean, you can't seize property preemptorily without being able to establish a valid lien against it. That's a basic principle of law.
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:41 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:41 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
I'm agreeing with everyone above. I've had my car taken to a mechanic plenty of times with the instructions not to do anything until they talked to us first about what it was and what it would cost.
But the mechanic has to do something to know what is wrong. That something is a diagnostic test. It's pretty common knowledge that some sort of testing is going to have to happen in order to know what to fix.
I don't want to say that you're sister is just really stupid about this, but did she expect them to place their hands on the hood and magically know what to fix? Does she think that mechanics look at cars to see what needs fixing for free?
Checking the car takes time and resources. They deserve to be paid for those. By checking her car, they took time and resources away from other clients. If mechanics checked for problems for free then they'd lose a lot of money by checking cars and having people decide that the repair is something they can do themselves at home or take it somewhere cheaper to have it fixed. Neither is going to make the shop money, and in fact they lose money because they're doing something for her for free instead of working with/for a paying client.
If I were you, I'd explain all of this to your sister. Do not go to the local news media. At best they'll ignore it, at worse your sister will look like an idiot for expecting the mechanic to check her car for free and having that out for the public to know.
The only thing that changes this is if the shop somehow implied that checking the car would be free. Maybe this happened and they forgot about it or something. It happens. I once had someone try to charge me for work on my radio when I was supposed to get it for free because I had it installed there. I'd been in so often that they didn't ever ask if I was eligible for free work because everyone at some point had a hand in fixing my thing up.
Even under the Consumer Fraud thing mentioned above, I would find it hard to believe that the shop doesn't have prices listed somewhere. I don't think it's a stretch for the mechanic to understand what your sister said as "I've seen what diagnostic prices are, don't do anything else without calling me."
Because really, the only diagnostic stuff that I've seen for free is worthless or applied to the cost of fixing the car.
posted by theichibun at 12:41 PM on December 13, 2010 [6 favorites]
But the mechanic has to do something to know what is wrong. That something is a diagnostic test. It's pretty common knowledge that some sort of testing is going to have to happen in order to know what to fix.
I don't want to say that you're sister is just really stupid about this, but did she expect them to place their hands on the hood and magically know what to fix? Does she think that mechanics look at cars to see what needs fixing for free?
Checking the car takes time and resources. They deserve to be paid for those. By checking her car, they took time and resources away from other clients. If mechanics checked for problems for free then they'd lose a lot of money by checking cars and having people decide that the repair is something they can do themselves at home or take it somewhere cheaper to have it fixed. Neither is going to make the shop money, and in fact they lose money because they're doing something for her for free instead of working with/for a paying client.
If I were you, I'd explain all of this to your sister. Do not go to the local news media. At best they'll ignore it, at worse your sister will look like an idiot for expecting the mechanic to check her car for free and having that out for the public to know.
The only thing that changes this is if the shop somehow implied that checking the car would be free. Maybe this happened and they forgot about it or something. It happens. I once had someone try to charge me for work on my radio when I was supposed to get it for free because I had it installed there. I'd been in so often that they didn't ever ask if I was eligible for free work because everyone at some point had a hand in fixing my thing up.
Even under the Consumer Fraud thing mentioned above, I would find it hard to believe that the shop doesn't have prices listed somewhere. I don't think it's a stretch for the mechanic to understand what your sister said as "I've seen what diagnostic prices are, don't do anything else without calling me."
Because really, the only diagnostic stuff that I've seen for free is worthless or applied to the cost of fixing the car.
posted by theichibun at 12:41 PM on December 13, 2010 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: Pammeke, that is not the same car.
posted by shesaysgo at 12:42 PM on December 13, 2010
posted by shesaysgo at 12:42 PM on December 13, 2010
Also, contact the RMV in advance if the mechanic is really going to file to seize title. This whole thing sounds fishy to me, and I am wondering if your sister has told you everything. If she signed an authorization for them to do the further testing, you need to pay the bill.
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:42 PM on December 13, 2010
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:42 PM on December 13, 2010
Some auto parts stores run diagnostic tests for free, but not mechanics.
Your next step is to pay the mechanics or loose the car, lesson learned. You should also get the results of the diagnostic test.
posted by Max Power at 12:43 PM on December 13, 2010
Your next step is to pay the mechanics or loose the car, lesson learned. You should also get the results of the diagnostic test.
posted by Max Power at 12:43 PM on December 13, 2010
If you had phrased this as "promised a free estimate" it would be less ambiguous than "don't do anything that would cost money", since it isn't clear if that refers to repair work following the diagnostic work. Perhaps this difference in phrasing reflects the difference in understanding between the mechanic and your sister.
posted by found missing at 12:44 PM on December 13, 2010 [6 favorites]
posted by found missing at 12:44 PM on December 13, 2010 [6 favorites]
Honestly, I think that you might want to approach the problem from a different angle. It sounds like the issue is less the mechanic, and more that you're under incredible financial pressure.
If it's at all possible I'd direct my energy toward trying to negotiate a payment plan with the mechanic and looking for either A: A cheaper way to travel (transit, bike, walking, carpooling, whatever) or B: More income.
I really feel for your situation, but it sounds like the problem is not that the mechanic is a jerk, but that you're broke. IMHO the kind of situation your describing is almost never worth the time and emotional investment necessary to win through confrontation, legal battles, etc.
I know that you're not getting the answers you want, but I suspect that it's because you're asking the wrong questions.
posted by Stagger Lee at 12:44 PM on December 13, 2010 [12 favorites]
If it's at all possible I'd direct my energy toward trying to negotiate a payment plan with the mechanic and looking for either A: A cheaper way to travel (transit, bike, walking, carpooling, whatever) or B: More income.
I really feel for your situation, but it sounds like the problem is not that the mechanic is a jerk, but that you're broke. IMHO the kind of situation your describing is almost never worth the time and emotional investment necessary to win through confrontation, legal battles, etc.
I know that you're not getting the answers you want, but I suspect that it's because you're asking the wrong questions.
posted by Stagger Lee at 12:44 PM on December 13, 2010 [12 favorites]
It's a verbal agreement, so I'm not sure how you can prove anything, you know? At this point, it might be easiest and cheapest to pay the fee, get the car and report them to the Better Business Bureau.
posted by nomadicink at 12:44 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by nomadicink at 12:44 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
Checking the car takes time and resources. They deserve to be paid for those. By checking her car, they took time and resources away from other clients.
Yes, but you have to have agreement from the client that you're doing the work. You can't just do the work without authorization and declare a lien on their property as a result--there has to be some paperwork around the bill (unless Virginia law is completely different from Massachusetts and New York law in this respect, which it might be).
On the one hand, her saying "They agreed to do only the free diagnostic" is an oral agreement, but on the other hand, their saying "She obviously wanted us to do this other testing" is an oral agreement unless they have something she signed. When it comes to things like liens and seizures, you generally need some kind of paperwork to back you up.
I think that morally, the sister probably owes the mechanic the money for the work they did. I am just mystified that law enforcement is allowing them to, in effect, enforce a lien based on a putative verbal agreement.
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:47 PM on December 13, 2010
Yes, but you have to have agreement from the client that you're doing the work. You can't just do the work without authorization and declare a lien on their property as a result--there has to be some paperwork around the bill (unless Virginia law is completely different from Massachusetts and New York law in this respect, which it might be).
On the one hand, her saying "They agreed to do only the free diagnostic" is an oral agreement, but on the other hand, their saying "She obviously wanted us to do this other testing" is an oral agreement unless they have something she signed. When it comes to things like liens and seizures, you generally need some kind of paperwork to back you up.
I think that morally, the sister probably owes the mechanic the money for the work they did. I am just mystified that law enforcement is allowing them to, in effect, enforce a lien based on a putative verbal agreement.
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:47 PM on December 13, 2010
Typically you have to sign something when you drop off the car that explains what is going to be done and how much it will cost. If the repair shop didn't require that, then they made a mistake. But your sister made a mistake too. She apparently wanted a free diagnosis of her car troubles, and the fact that she can't pay the diagnostic fee sort of implies that she wouldn't be able to pay for any required repairs either. This isn't really what mechanics are in business to do, so it might appear to an unbiased mediator that she wasn't really acting 100% in good faith either. I would recommend that she pay the fee and chalk it up to a lesson learned. But if she truly can not afford it, she should explain her situation politely and ask the shop to meet her half way -- each side pays half of the fee, and then everybody goes their separate ways, older and wiser, secure in the knowledge that verbal agreements are simply not worth the paper they are printed on.
posted by spilon at 12:49 PM on December 13, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by spilon at 12:49 PM on December 13, 2010 [4 favorites]
I know that this is not what you want to hear, but pretty much any mechanic is going to charge some sort of fee just for leaving your vehicle on their property for X amount of time. For example, when Mr. Adams' car got T-boned in an accident, we had to have it towed someplace (according to the police), so we designated a body shop that was within walking distance to our house. The insurance adjuster came out the very next day and "totaled" the car. Nevertheless, even though the body shop didn't do anything other than allow our car to be parked there for a little less than 24 hours they charged us a storage fee. In your sister's case, I'm thinking that the garage's point of view is that they didn't do any repairs that cost money, so they complied with the verbal contract. However, other than a friend who is a backyard mechanic, I can't picture any business spending time to diagnose the mechanical problems of a particular vehicle for free. Would your sister ask a doctor to give her a physical to determine the cause of a particular pain with the proviso that he didn't charge her unless she agreed to have her inflamed appendix removed?
posted by Oriole Adams at 12:49 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Oriole Adams at 12:49 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
Go over the head of whatever officer it is who said it was OK for the mechanic to hold the car.
Is this really a police matter? Seems like a civil issue to me straight up and down, unless you want to accuse the shop of stealing your car, which they clearly aren't doing under the mechanic's lien statute. (I'm just going to use "you" and "your" as if answering your sister directly).
A $100 diagnostic test (or even a $20,000 car) aren't worth losing your business over, so I suspect they're on solid ground and calling the police is a silly thing to do. If they've been in business more than a few years, I humbly suggest you might just be wrong about what you heard them promise.
The right thing to do is to pay the bill, get the car back, and if you really think you can prove your version of events (it's down to he said/she said if they maintain diagnostics are authorized whenever someone asks them to solve a problem), then take them to small claims court.
Hooking an engine computer up to an analyzer should cost no more than $100. We're talking about peanuts here anyway, unless this is a clip joint and they're in the business of stealing cars over trivial bills, which I doubt.
You'll lose in court, though. You should have gotten the too-good-to-be-true we'll-work-for-free stuff in writing. There's probably a sign posted in the shop somewhere that notifies you of your obligation to pay for diagnostic tests if needed -- I've seen it in every legit shop I've ever been in.
The obvious assumption, that many here are properly making too, is that you come in with a problem, you are authorizing the shop to diagnose the problem. Whatever your "verbal agreement," maybe you misunderstood it or heard it wrong, or the guy who said it was not paying attention to your question, or just an asshole who knew you'd never be able to prove he said anything of the sort, if they post prices for diagnostic testing they are in the right and clear here, and your sister is SOL.
Nothing is free, most especially not in the domain of automobile ownership. If you can't spring for a diagnostic test (and your car, acc. to the prior askme, is uninspected as a result, meaning you face hundreds of dollars in fines if you actually drive it uninspected) you should probably not own a car, frankly. I guarantee you spend more on gas in a couple of weeks than this test will cost you, and you need to know what's wrong to render the car legally drivable, and possibly even safe.
Definitely Better Business Bureau territory, not the damn cops, but don't go in all confrontational, because you are not clearly in the right here even though you think you are, from an objective outside perspective anyway.
Maybe your sister can loan you the money.
posted by spitbull at 12:59 PM on December 13, 2010 [4 favorites]
Is this really a police matter? Seems like a civil issue to me straight up and down, unless you want to accuse the shop of stealing your car, which they clearly aren't doing under the mechanic's lien statute. (I'm just going to use "you" and "your" as if answering your sister directly).
A $100 diagnostic test (or even a $20,000 car) aren't worth losing your business over, so I suspect they're on solid ground and calling the police is a silly thing to do. If they've been in business more than a few years, I humbly suggest you might just be wrong about what you heard them promise.
The right thing to do is to pay the bill, get the car back, and if you really think you can prove your version of events (it's down to he said/she said if they maintain diagnostics are authorized whenever someone asks them to solve a problem), then take them to small claims court.
Hooking an engine computer up to an analyzer should cost no more than $100. We're talking about peanuts here anyway, unless this is a clip joint and they're in the business of stealing cars over trivial bills, which I doubt.
You'll lose in court, though. You should have gotten the too-good-to-be-true we'll-work-for-free stuff in writing. There's probably a sign posted in the shop somewhere that notifies you of your obligation to pay for diagnostic tests if needed -- I've seen it in every legit shop I've ever been in.
The obvious assumption, that many here are properly making too, is that you come in with a problem, you are authorizing the shop to diagnose the problem. Whatever your "verbal agreement," maybe you misunderstood it or heard it wrong, or the guy who said it was not paying attention to your question, or just an asshole who knew you'd never be able to prove he said anything of the sort, if they post prices for diagnostic testing they are in the right and clear here, and your sister is SOL.
Nothing is free, most especially not in the domain of automobile ownership. If you can't spring for a diagnostic test (and your car, acc. to the prior askme, is uninspected as a result, meaning you face hundreds of dollars in fines if you actually drive it uninspected) you should probably not own a car, frankly. I guarantee you spend more on gas in a couple of weeks than this test will cost you, and you need to know what's wrong to render the car legally drivable, and possibly even safe.
Definitely Better Business Bureau territory, not the damn cops, but don't go in all confrontational, because you are not clearly in the right here even though you think you are, from an objective outside perspective anyway.
Maybe your sister can loan you the money.
posted by spitbull at 12:59 PM on December 13, 2010 [4 favorites]
You're playing semantic games now. To a mechanic, "not doing anything that would cost money" means "repairs." No reasonable judge who drives a car is going to think that means anything else, no matter what your sister thought it meant. She made a bad choice; pay the fee, or start taking the El. If you know of a decent mechanic in the Chicago area who'll run an engine diagnostic for free, I'd certainly like to hear who that is - I've lived here thirty years, and I don't know of one.
posted by OneMonkeysUncle at 12:59 PM on December 13, 2010 [6 favorites]
posted by OneMonkeysUncle at 12:59 PM on December 13, 2010 [6 favorites]
When it comes to things like liens and seizures, you generally need some kind of paperwork to back you up.
This. You've been very clear about the oral agreement between your sister and the mechanic. What, if anything, did your sister sign when she dropped off the car? I've never ever been to a mechanic that would let me leave a car without a signed form describing the car and what was to be done to it. If your sister signed paperwork authorizing diagnostic tests, then she's out of luck, even if she had an oral agreement that the mechanic would not do anything that would cost her money. Written agreements trump oral ones, for obvious reasons.
The ability of the mechanic to get a lien on the car is going to hinge on the paperwork they submit. Does she have a piece of paper from the mechanic, usually a carbon of whatever form they had her fill out? What does that piece of paper say?
posted by ambrosia at 1:03 PM on December 13, 2010 [2 favorites]
This. You've been very clear about the oral agreement between your sister and the mechanic. What, if anything, did your sister sign when she dropped off the car? I've never ever been to a mechanic that would let me leave a car without a signed form describing the car and what was to be done to it. If your sister signed paperwork authorizing diagnostic tests, then she's out of luck, even if she had an oral agreement that the mechanic would not do anything that would cost her money. Written agreements trump oral ones, for obvious reasons.
The ability of the mechanic to get a lien on the car is going to hinge on the paperwork they submit. Does she have a piece of paper from the mechanic, usually a carbon of whatever form they had her fill out? What does that piece of paper say?
posted by ambrosia at 1:03 PM on December 13, 2010 [2 favorites]
we don't really know that process, nor do we have the money for a lawyer or court fees. Advice on that would be appreciated, too.
Get a lawyer on the MeFi Wiki mentions some options.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 1:03 PM on December 13, 2010
Get a lawyer on the MeFi Wiki mentions some options.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 1:03 PM on December 13, 2010
Having looked at the Virginia code around mechanics' liens, I think that your sister is pretty much fucked vis-a-vis getting the car back without paying; the burden of proof is clearly on the owner, not on the mechanic.
Is this really a police matter? Seems like a civil issue to me straight up and down, unless you want to accuse the shop of stealing your car, which they clearly aren't doing under the mechanic's lien statute.
Yep, I was thinking Massachusetts but the Virginia statute doesn't seem to require that the mechanic has to prove the lien in order to take possession of the vehicle.
And this is why I am not a lawyer! Going back to flag my posts as "noise" because they obviously aren't relevant to this matter.
posted by Sidhedevil at 1:05 PM on December 13, 2010
Is this really a police matter? Seems like a civil issue to me straight up and down, unless you want to accuse the shop of stealing your car, which they clearly aren't doing under the mechanic's lien statute.
Yep, I was thinking Massachusetts but the Virginia statute doesn't seem to require that the mechanic has to prove the lien in order to take possession of the vehicle.
And this is why I am not a lawyer! Going back to flag my posts as "noise" because they obviously aren't relevant to this matter.
posted by Sidhedevil at 1:05 PM on December 13, 2010
If you did not sign anything, I cannot see where he can do anything more than jerk you around for a week or two holding your car. I would call the local non-emergency police line and explain the situation.
posted by AugustWest at 1:05 PM on December 13, 2010
posted by AugustWest at 1:05 PM on December 13, 2010
The ability of the mechanic to get a lien on the car is going to hinge on the paperwork they submit.
You would think so, but there isn't even anywhere on the lien form, or the title transfer form, for the mechanic to include a copy of the paperwork. (The latter is the VSA-41 pdf.)
Holy crap, that is a very consumer-unfriendly law!
posted by Sidhedevil at 1:08 PM on December 13, 2010
You would think so, but there isn't even anywhere on the lien form, or the title transfer form, for the mechanic to include a copy of the paperwork. (The latter is the VSA-41 pdf.)
Holy crap, that is a very consumer-unfriendly law!
posted by Sidhedevil at 1:08 PM on December 13, 2010
Sidhedevil: "Yes, but you have to have agreement from the client that you're doing the work. You can't just do the work without authorization and declare a lien on their property as a result--there has to be some paperwork around the bill "
I never meant to imply that I could just take someone's car, work on it without their knowledge, and expect to get paid. That would just be crazy. But by taking it in it seems reasonable to me to expect them to do some sort of work on the car just in the form of diagnostic stuff to see what's wrong.
posted by theichibun at 1:09 PM on December 13, 2010
I never meant to imply that I could just take someone's car, work on it without their knowledge, and expect to get paid. That would just be crazy. But by taking it in it seems reasonable to me to expect them to do some sort of work on the car just in the form of diagnostic stuff to see what's wrong.
posted by theichibun at 1:09 PM on December 13, 2010
Question for the OP: Can you clarify....
1) What did she ask them to do when she brought it in?
2) Did they provide an estimate to repair whatever was wrong with it that she decided not to fix?
3) How much is the bill?
The reason I ask is, if they did a diagnostic with the intention of crediting it against the labour for the repair, which is pretty standard, and then she declined to have the work done, that cost has to be recouped somehow. And, are we talking an unreasonable amount? If it's less than $100, I'd humbly submit that you're probably better off coming up with a payment plan, as others have suggested. If it's an unreasonable amount, then I can understand your frustration and search for alternative ways to dispute the charges.
posted by liquado at 1:11 PM on December 13, 2010 [2 favorites]
1) What did she ask them to do when she brought it in?
2) Did they provide an estimate to repair whatever was wrong with it that she decided not to fix?
3) How much is the bill?
The reason I ask is, if they did a diagnostic with the intention of crediting it against the labour for the repair, which is pretty standard, and then she declined to have the work done, that cost has to be recouped somehow. And, are we talking an unreasonable amount? If it's less than $100, I'd humbly submit that you're probably better off coming up with a payment plan, as others have suggested. If it's an unreasonable amount, then I can understand your frustration and search for alternative ways to dispute the charges.
posted by liquado at 1:11 PM on December 13, 2010 [2 favorites]
Holy crap, that is a very consumer-unfriendly law!
Indeed. I find that a little surprising, but then some states are spectacularly anti-consumer, so go figure. In any case, however, going through the paperwork to file the lien is still a PITA for the mechanic. They just want to get paid. OP's sister should go back and work out some kind of payment plan, and then when she has her car back she can write the nastiest burn of a review on Yelp.com or whatever the local equivalent is if she's so inclined.
posted by ambrosia at 1:16 PM on December 13, 2010
Indeed. I find that a little surprising, but then some states are spectacularly anti-consumer, so go figure. In any case, however, going through the paperwork to file the lien is still a PITA for the mechanic. They just want to get paid. OP's sister should go back and work out some kind of payment plan, and then when she has her car back she can write the nastiest burn of a review on Yelp.com or whatever the local equivalent is if she's so inclined.
posted by ambrosia at 1:16 PM on December 13, 2010
I am not a lawyer and am not giving legal advice. But I have recently had to navigate the car repair boondoggle (then wound up buying a new car, but that's another story). I hear what you are saying, but I'm needing more information to fully understand this. Since I'm not the one talking directly to your sister, you might need to ask her these questions to get the full picture of what's going on.
1. Did she take the car to a dealership, a chain/large car repair place, or a smaller mechanic?
2. Why did she take the car there? As in, what exactly did she tell the person she spoke to about the reason she took the car in? If it was simply for a state inspection, then that doesn't require an automatic engine diagnostic check and all she should owe is the state inspection. However, if there is something that doesn't pass the state inspection (like a check engine or airbag light on), then the facility cannot give her an inspection sticker without the problem being repaired. (Only Northern Virginia (near DC) requires emissions testing, but all of Virginia requires an inspection that takes about 2 hours and incurs some basic charges).
3. Did she sign anything at all when she took the car in? If so, get a copy of that and read the fine print thoroughly. I know that car dealerships nowadays do nothing with a vehicle without running the engine diagnostic procedure via computer, and that takes at least one hour and they automatically charge at least that one hour of labor. When you sign that piece of paper, the agreement that they run the diagnostic is in the fine print. (I just had to deal with this with my previous car about 6 months ago, and called around to other dealerships recently to ask about how to diagnose what was going on with my car. None of the larger mechanic shops would even hazard a guess without a diagnostic test).
4. Did anyone from the shop call her at any time while her vehicle was there? If so, what was the discussion? Did the shop call her number and get someone else on the line (a husband, etc) who authorized the charges without knowing what was going on? The shop usually keeps a record of who was called and why, unless it's a small one person type of shop. Car dealerships definitely keep these records to cover their ass. See if those records can be accessed.
Please don't get irritated at these questions...if she is seeking any sort of legal solution to this problem she will be asked by a judge/mediator to provide these answers anyway, so she might as well start gathering her info and getting her facts in order.
posted by MultiFaceted at 1:19 PM on December 13, 2010 [3 favorites]
1. Did she take the car to a dealership, a chain/large car repair place, or a smaller mechanic?
2. Why did she take the car there? As in, what exactly did she tell the person she spoke to about the reason she took the car in? If it was simply for a state inspection, then that doesn't require an automatic engine diagnostic check and all she should owe is the state inspection. However, if there is something that doesn't pass the state inspection (like a check engine or airbag light on), then the facility cannot give her an inspection sticker without the problem being repaired. (Only Northern Virginia (near DC) requires emissions testing, but all of Virginia requires an inspection that takes about 2 hours and incurs some basic charges).
3. Did she sign anything at all when she took the car in? If so, get a copy of that and read the fine print thoroughly. I know that car dealerships nowadays do nothing with a vehicle without running the engine diagnostic procedure via computer, and that takes at least one hour and they automatically charge at least that one hour of labor. When you sign that piece of paper, the agreement that they run the diagnostic is in the fine print. (I just had to deal with this with my previous car about 6 months ago, and called around to other dealerships recently to ask about how to diagnose what was going on with my car. None of the larger mechanic shops would even hazard a guess without a diagnostic test).
4. Did anyone from the shop call her at any time while her vehicle was there? If so, what was the discussion? Did the shop call her number and get someone else on the line (a husband, etc) who authorized the charges without knowing what was going on? The shop usually keeps a record of who was called and why, unless it's a small one person type of shop. Car dealerships definitely keep these records to cover their ass. See if those records can be accessed.
Please don't get irritated at these questions...if she is seeking any sort of legal solution to this problem she will be asked by a judge/mediator to provide these answers anyway, so she might as well start gathering her info and getting her facts in order.
posted by MultiFaceted at 1:19 PM on December 13, 2010 [3 favorites]
Whether it makes sense to any of you is irrelevant.
This is "I don't understand how Ask MetaFilter works," a secondary problem to not understanding how garages work.
It looks like you're pretty young (peeking at previous questions)? This may work to your advantage; go in and explain what your mistake was, explain that you now understand (now that you have carefully read all the answers here) the mistake, see what can be done to settle things amicably for a young person who has never had to sort out these kinds of problems before. "I did not understand" may not get magically far, especially after a week of fuss, but it would work better than "a-hole."
posted by kmennie at 1:25 PM on December 13, 2010 [11 favorites]
This is "I don't understand how Ask MetaFilter works," a secondary problem to not understanding how garages work.
It looks like you're pretty young (peeking at previous questions)? This may work to your advantage; go in and explain what your mistake was, explain that you now understand (now that you have carefully read all the answers here) the mistake, see what can be done to settle things amicably for a young person who has never had to sort out these kinds of problems before. "I did not understand" may not get magically far, especially after a week of fuss, but it would work better than "a-hole."
posted by kmennie at 1:25 PM on December 13, 2010 [11 favorites]
Oral agreements aren't worth the paper they're written on. I don't think you're going to be able to get out of this one without putting some cash on the table, sorry. Sh*t happens. Just tell all your friends and family to go to a different mechanic in the future if you feel hard done by.
posted by MighstAllCruckingFighty at 1:33 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by MighstAllCruckingFighty at 1:33 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
What you can do is pass the hat around or sell possessions to get the woman her car back. Whatever. Use newspaper as toilet roll, skip meals, forgo medication, listen to the humiliating lecture from the friend or relative who can loan you money.. Etc. I'm guessing shell lose her job without transport, so get the car back. Askme doesn't have a magic solution.
posted by By The Grace of God at 1:34 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by By The Grace of God at 1:34 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
Yeah, we need to know why the car was left there in the first place, and what your sister expected them to do, if not a diagnostic. They have to check the car out, and doing a thorough inspection without a diagnostic would actually be far more expensive. "do not do anything that costs money" is vague, when you've explicitly brought your car there for them to do something to figure out what is wrong. It would have been extremely helpful for the mechanic to make clear exactly what was going to happen and what it would cost, but at the same time, they are probably operating under the assumption that no one would expect them to perform work for free. (If there was an agreement to that effect, I'm afraid it is not clear in your posts or follow-up). Poor communication all around, but unless they explicitly told her that they would perform certain tasks for free and then went back on it, I don't know that you can go anywhere with this.
posted by oneirodynia at 1:49 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by oneirodynia at 1:49 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
Consider the possibility that a reasonable mechanic could interpret "don't do anything that would cost money" as "don't do any repairs that would cost money." If I go to a doctor and say "don't do anything that would cost money," I still expect to pay for the initial exam.
posted by Majorita at 1:55 PM on December 13, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by Majorita at 1:55 PM on December 13, 2010 [2 favorites]
Oral agreements aren't worth the paper they're written on.
That should be sauce for the goose as well as the gander, though (and it is in many states), but it seems pretty clear to this layman's reading of the law that the burden of proof is on the car owner, not on the mechanic, in Virginia.
posted by Sidhedevil at 2:03 PM on December 13, 2010
That should be sauce for the goose as well as the gander, though (and it is in many states), but it seems pretty clear to this layman's reading of the law that the burden of proof is on the car owner, not on the mechanic, in Virginia.
posted by Sidhedevil at 2:03 PM on December 13, 2010
I am not sure what is not clear from the OP. THe OP's sister took the car to a mechanic to find out what was wrong. THe mechanic agreed verbally to not charge for that and to not do any work until they agreed. She left it there with the expectation that she might find out what was wrong and then make a decision as to spend anything on it. Just as the garage may credit back the diagnostic test bill if the work is done there, I am sure that there are mechanics who will try to get the work by not charging for the diagnostic but if they get the work they will charge then or not at all.
THe only thing that is confusing about this is if your sister cannot afford to get the car by paying the diagnostic fee, how was she going to pay for any repairs? It is almost as if she never had any intention of doing anything but getting the car diagnosed and having her buddy then fix it.
I would call the local police to sort it out.
posted by AugustWest at 2:10 PM on December 13, 2010
THe only thing that is confusing about this is if your sister cannot afford to get the car by paying the diagnostic fee, how was she going to pay for any repairs? It is almost as if she never had any intention of doing anything but getting the car diagnosed and having her buddy then fix it.
I would call the local police to sort it out.
posted by AugustWest at 2:10 PM on December 13, 2010
THe mechanic agreed verbally to not charge for that
Of course, that's exactly what's not clear from the OP.
posted by found missing at 2:15 PM on December 13, 2010
Of course, that's exactly what's not clear from the OP.
posted by found missing at 2:15 PM on December 13, 2010
THe mechanic agreed verbally to not charge for that
It doesn't say anywhere in the post that this is the case. That's why I asked for clarification on the point.
I would call the local police to sort it out.
They already did:
That was one of the first things we did. They said what we'd already found out, which is that mechanics are allowed to keep vehicles when there is an unpaid balance. They suggested going to civil court and filing, but we don't really know that process, nor do we have the money for a lawyer or court fees.
posted by oneirodynia at 2:18 PM on December 13, 2010
It doesn't say anywhere in the post that this is the case. That's why I asked for clarification on the point.
I would call the local police to sort it out.
They already did:
That was one of the first things we did. They said what we'd already found out, which is that mechanics are allowed to keep vehicles when there is an unpaid balance. They suggested going to civil court and filing, but we don't really know that process, nor do we have the money for a lawyer or court fees.
posted by oneirodynia at 2:18 PM on December 13, 2010
THe only thing that is confusing about this is if your sister cannot afford to get the car by paying the diagnostic fee, how was she going to pay for any repairs? It is almost as if she never had any intention of doing anything but getting the car diagnosed and having her buddy then fix it.
It's not uncommon for people to get a list of what's wrong or needed and the priority if multiple problems and then save up money for the repairs..
posted by nomadicink at 2:23 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
It's not uncommon for people to get a list of what's wrong or needed and the priority if multiple problems and then save up money for the repairs..
posted by nomadicink at 2:23 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
I am not sure what is not clear from the OP.
See the questions posed by MultiFaceted for a start. Or your own question: how was she going to pay for any repairs?
posted by Majorita at 2:23 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
See the questions posed by MultiFaceted for a start. Or your own question: how was she going to pay for any repairs?
posted by Majorita at 2:23 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
FWIW, I'm surprised at (but not disputing) the near-unanimous agreement on this. I've been driving for 30 years, I've probably had 15 cars during that time, and I can't recall ever paying for an estimate. I can definitely recall getting estimates on repair work I couldn't afford at the time and there was never a question that I'd be taking my car home. Maybe it's a California thing, or the fact that I've been very loyal to a handful of independent mechanics over the years. I've also never had a car with a computer in it, so I'm curious if running a diagnostic is computer-related, and different than "getting an estimate".
Mods: if tis is a derail please delete.
posted by Room 641-A at 2:29 PM on December 13, 2010 [2 favorites]
Mods: if tis is a derail please delete.
posted by Room 641-A at 2:29 PM on December 13, 2010 [2 favorites]
It's not uncommon for people to get a list of what's wrong or needed and the priority if multiple problems and then save up money for the repairs..
Yeah, but it's also not uncommon to get the list of what's wrong and then head down to Pep Boys or a friend's house and get it fixed shade-tree style. That's why nearly every mechanic shop I've ever known (and I know a *lot* of mechanics for various reasons) explicitly posts charges for diagnostic work, but many will credit the diagnostic work to the repair as long as they get the job.
I'm with those saying it's just as easy to imagine the mechanic feeling screwed by the sister here: do a diagnostic workup for free, but no, I'm not paying you to do any repairs. Guy's probably pissed off and that's why he's going to be a stickler. I'd be pissed off too, especially if turned out the customer never had the money for the repairs in the first place. I'd be guessing she was off to Pep Boys with her handy neighbor and my list of needed parts. And I'd go to the mat for the $100 she owed me as a result.
And for chrissake, people, stop suggesting she go to the police. She did, they told her it wasn't their problem, and it isn't.
Just pay the bill. Lesson learned.
posted by spitbull at 2:35 PM on December 13, 2010 [5 favorites]
Yeah, but it's also not uncommon to get the list of what's wrong and then head down to Pep Boys or a friend's house and get it fixed shade-tree style. That's why nearly every mechanic shop I've ever known (and I know a *lot* of mechanics for various reasons) explicitly posts charges for diagnostic work, but many will credit the diagnostic work to the repair as long as they get the job.
I'm with those saying it's just as easy to imagine the mechanic feeling screwed by the sister here: do a diagnostic workup for free, but no, I'm not paying you to do any repairs. Guy's probably pissed off and that's why he's going to be a stickler. I'd be pissed off too, especially if turned out the customer never had the money for the repairs in the first place. I'd be guessing she was off to Pep Boys with her handy neighbor and my list of needed parts. And I'd go to the mat for the $100 she owed me as a result.
And for chrissake, people, stop suggesting she go to the police. She did, they told her it wasn't their problem, and it isn't.
Just pay the bill. Lesson learned.
posted by spitbull at 2:35 PM on December 13, 2010 [5 favorites]
shesaysgo, can you please clarify if your sister signed anything when she left the car? I realize there was a verbal agreement, but was there ANY written agreement between the mechanic and your sister?
Also, what are they charging for the diagnostic test? This is not just idle curiosity; I would think something like this should cost less than $100 or so, and if they are charging a significantly higher fee, you would have more of a case when it comes to the verbal agreement of not doing any work that would cost her money.
posted by misha at 2:35 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
Also, what are they charging for the diagnostic test? This is not just idle curiosity; I would think something like this should cost less than $100 or so, and if they are charging a significantly higher fee, you would have more of a case when it comes to the verbal agreement of not doing any work that would cost her money.
posted by misha at 2:35 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
I'm feeling for the OP here. My first few times dealing with a mechanic on my own (when I was 19) went pretty badly. One time went really really badly.
I suspect the OP's sister didn't entirely understand the agreement or the process when she took her car in. The mechanic probably realized the sister didn't fully understand, but he took a chance and agreed to check out the car anyway rather than pass up the opportunity entirely.
OP - it is important to weigh the cost of the diagnostic vs. the loss of the car. Sure the mechanic is holding the car hostage for payment, but maybe your sister should come up with some cash for these folks and move on with her life. Sometimes these lessons are difficult and costly. It happens. Next time wiser.
Your sister should start by offering half of the total amount for the diagnostic in cash to these guys in exchange for the keys and the car. (If it were me, I'd walk into the mechanic shop with tear stained cheeks, beg, and put on a real show. YMMV.)
I predict any official or legal remedy your sister might employ here would cost more time, money, and effort than just negotiating down the price of the diagnostic and getting the car back.
DID YOUR SISTER SIGN ANYTHING?
She should be on the lookout for the diagnostic fee to end up in collections down the road. If she is asked to sign something to get her car back, she should read and consider what she is signing very very carefully.
Good Luck.
posted by jbenben at 2:35 PM on December 13, 2010
I suspect the OP's sister didn't entirely understand the agreement or the process when she took her car in. The mechanic probably realized the sister didn't fully understand, but he took a chance and agreed to check out the car anyway rather than pass up the opportunity entirely.
OP - it is important to weigh the cost of the diagnostic vs. the loss of the car. Sure the mechanic is holding the car hostage for payment, but maybe your sister should come up with some cash for these folks and move on with her life. Sometimes these lessons are difficult and costly. It happens. Next time wiser.
Your sister should start by offering half of the total amount for the diagnostic in cash to these guys in exchange for the keys and the car. (If it were me, I'd walk into the mechanic shop with tear stained cheeks, beg, and put on a real show. YMMV.)
I predict any official or legal remedy your sister might employ here would cost more time, money, and effort than just negotiating down the price of the diagnostic and getting the car back.
DID YOUR SISTER SIGN ANYTHING?
She should be on the lookout for the diagnostic fee to end up in collections down the road. If she is asked to sign something to get her car back, she should read and consider what she is signing very very carefully.
Good Luck.
posted by jbenben at 2:35 PM on December 13, 2010
Paying for a diagnostic: I'll give it to you in a recent example.
Car needed an alignment. Brought car in. They put it on the diagnostic-computer-doohickey, and it turns out in was in alignment after all.
I didn't pay $65 for an alignment. I happily and gladly paid $14.95 for the diagnostic. I imagine that, in part, covered the labor rate for performing such a task.
posted by jerseygirl at 2:37 PM on December 13, 2010
Car needed an alignment. Brought car in. They put it on the diagnostic-computer-doohickey, and it turns out in was in alignment after all.
I didn't pay $65 for an alignment. I happily and gladly paid $14.95 for the diagnostic. I imagine that, in part, covered the labor rate for performing such a task.
posted by jerseygirl at 2:37 PM on December 13, 2010
This answer form 2008 is much the same;
Is the mechanic ripping me off?
posted by stuartmm at 2:39 PM on December 13, 2010
Is the mechanic ripping me off?
posted by stuartmm at 2:39 PM on December 13, 2010
According to the Virginia code I just read and my understanding of it (IANAL and IANYL), IF your sister requested it, "prior to the commencement of any repair work on a motor vehicle for which a customer may be charged more than twenty-five dollars, every automobile repair facility doing business in the Commonwealth shall provide the customer a written statement of (i) the estimated cost of labor necessary to complete the work, (ii) the estimated cost of parts necessary to complete work, (iii) a description of the problem or work as described or authorized by the customer, and (iv) the estimated completion time." So she could have received a written estimate for repairs based on that diagnostic test they ran.
Okay. So you have said, repeatedly, that there was an oral agreement that no work be done. That being the case, your sister should have a piece of paper from the mechanic saying, "Okay, we won't do any repairs over $25." And she would have to authorize, by signature, any *repairs* that cost more than that. So she does not have to pay for the repairs the diagnostic test indicated her engine needs.
BUT, "Where a written estimate is requested, no repair work on the motor vehicle may be undertaken, other than such diagnostic work as may be necessary for the preparation of an estimate [italics mine]," which means the mechanic is entirely within their rights, according to Virginia law, to charge you for that diagnostic.
Now, in Florida, where I live, they can't charge you over $100 for anything, including diagnostic tests, unless I give them signed authorization. So I am not with the people saying, "Hey, I always have to pay around $100 just for taking my car in!"
But your sister is still, from everything I've read, responsible for that diagnostic cost. With or without that oral agreement, since the relevant code clearly distinguishes "repairs" from "diagnostic work."
Sorry to be the bearer of such bad news.
posted by misha at 3:09 PM on December 13, 2010 [8 favorites]
Okay. So you have said, repeatedly, that there was an oral agreement that no work be done. That being the case, your sister should have a piece of paper from the mechanic saying, "Okay, we won't do any repairs over $25." And she would have to authorize, by signature, any *repairs* that cost more than that. So she does not have to pay for the repairs the diagnostic test indicated her engine needs.
BUT, "Where a written estimate is requested, no repair work on the motor vehicle may be undertaken, other than such diagnostic work as may be necessary for the preparation of an estimate [italics mine]," which means the mechanic is entirely within their rights, according to Virginia law, to charge you for that diagnostic.
Now, in Florida, where I live, they can't charge you over $100 for anything, including diagnostic tests, unless I give them signed authorization. So I am not with the people saying, "Hey, I always have to pay around $100 just for taking my car in!"
But your sister is still, from everything I've read, responsible for that diagnostic cost. With or without that oral agreement, since the relevant code clearly distinguishes "repairs" from "diagnostic work."
Sorry to be the bearer of such bad news.
posted by misha at 3:09 PM on December 13, 2010 [8 favorites]
Maybe it's... the fact that I've been very loyal to a handful of independent mechanics over the years.
Yes, it is. My father has been a mechanic for 40 years. He runs a very busy independent shop. He does free estimates and often small repairs for free for his loyal customers. He has even been known to take payments in the form of vegetables from cash-poor customers. For years we had mung bean sprouts with dinner three times a week, thanks to my dad's unwillingness to turn away a customer in need of expensive repairs.
After so many years in the business, he can spot people looking to take advantage of his considerable generosity and expertise from a mile away. When he first started out, he used to look over new customers' cars on the spot and tell them exactly what needed fixing or replacing without billing for his time. Funny how they always said they'd "think about it" or "don't have the money to fix it right now" and he would never see them again. He'd also get burned when he was unable to take the time to have a proper, thorough look. He'd take just a quick look to satisfy the customers' requests for fast, free estimates and then discover a much bigger, more expensive problem afterward. He'd have to stop working and call the customer, the customer would be unhappy, and both parties' time was wasted.
As the years went by, those wasted minutes added up to a lot of lost revenue. As well, by then he had built up a loyal client base and he was busy. Time spent helping out freeloaders was time taken away from his paying customers. He also realized that he was a darn good mechanic and diagnostician, and that his expertise was worth something. He still gave freebies to his regular customers, but began charging for estimates and diagnostic tests for new customers. That decision has not made one small dent in his business, that's the way he's run it for decades since, and his customers keep coming back to him.
Sometimes he'll still give out free advice depending on the vibe and his mood. I was helping him out with routine oil changes one day when a little old man rolled up in 1930ish jeep. I mean, it was a relic. My dad spotted the problem almost immediately, and seeing the old man's vulnerability, told him exactly which part needed fixing and how much it should cost. He never saw the old man again, and he had expected as much. But the smooth-talking young'uns trying to get something for nothing don't get anything past him anymore.
Sorry if that's OT or a derail, but perhaps it'll give a better picture of why mechanics gotta be such dicks about charging for their time.
posted by keep it under cover at 3:27 PM on December 13, 2010 [6 favorites]
Yes, it is. My father has been a mechanic for 40 years. He runs a very busy independent shop. He does free estimates and often small repairs for free for his loyal customers. He has even been known to take payments in the form of vegetables from cash-poor customers. For years we had mung bean sprouts with dinner three times a week, thanks to my dad's unwillingness to turn away a customer in need of expensive repairs.
After so many years in the business, he can spot people looking to take advantage of his considerable generosity and expertise from a mile away. When he first started out, he used to look over new customers' cars on the spot and tell them exactly what needed fixing or replacing without billing for his time. Funny how they always said they'd "think about it" or "don't have the money to fix it right now" and he would never see them again. He'd also get burned when he was unable to take the time to have a proper, thorough look. He'd take just a quick look to satisfy the customers' requests for fast, free estimates and then discover a much bigger, more expensive problem afterward. He'd have to stop working and call the customer, the customer would be unhappy, and both parties' time was wasted.
As the years went by, those wasted minutes added up to a lot of lost revenue. As well, by then he had built up a loyal client base and he was busy. Time spent helping out freeloaders was time taken away from his paying customers. He also realized that he was a darn good mechanic and diagnostician, and that his expertise was worth something. He still gave freebies to his regular customers, but began charging for estimates and diagnostic tests for new customers. That decision has not made one small dent in his business, that's the way he's run it for decades since, and his customers keep coming back to him.
Sometimes he'll still give out free advice depending on the vibe and his mood. I was helping him out with routine oil changes one day when a little old man rolled up in 1930ish jeep. I mean, it was a relic. My dad spotted the problem almost immediately, and seeing the old man's vulnerability, told him exactly which part needed fixing and how much it should cost. He never saw the old man again, and he had expected as much. But the smooth-talking young'uns trying to get something for nothing don't get anything past him anymore.
Sorry if that's OT or a derail, but perhaps it'll give a better picture of why mechanics gotta be such dicks about charging for their time.
posted by keep it under cover at 3:27 PM on December 13, 2010 [6 favorites]
If she didn't want to spend ANY money on ANYTHING, she had no business taking her car to a mechanic in the first place. This is what keeps bugging me.
posted by Max Power at 3:41 PM on December 13, 2010 [14 favorites]
posted by Max Power at 3:41 PM on December 13, 2010 [14 favorites]
Here's the thing: No lawyer will take a case involving such a small amount of money, and even if they did, you would pay more in attorney's fees than you would recover from the mechanic. No newspaper is going to run a story in which it is so hard to prove that there was any wrongdoing. I'm not making any judgments regarding which side is in the right; I'm just telling you that your least costly option, by far, is to pay the mechanic and take the car home. If you really want to pursue it, you can do what others have mentioned and take them to small claims court after you get the car back. I know that's frustrating and it really sucks for your sister, but paying their bill right now is your only acceptable option. When that option is gone, things get a lot worse.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 4:42 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Pater Aletheias at 4:42 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
Everyone, please stop wasting space trying to explain to me that It's reasonable for a mechanic to charge for an engine diagnostic. I agree that it's reasonable, except in this instance where he said he wouldn't do anything that would cost money.
When I ask my mechanic to call me before 'doing anything' that's going to 'cost money', it's pretty clear to all concerned I mean 'perform no actions that will incur a charge in addition to your labour for working out what's wrong'. 'Do', in this case, very obviously means 'repairs', not 'diagnostics'.
For example: by all means, Herr Mechaniker, tell me I need a new power steering pump, and charge me for the time it took you to arrive at that opinion - typically a standard minimum charge ($66 at my mechanic) - but don't order or install a new pump until I say so.
I've just done a straw poll around the office and people are shaking their heads with disbelief that anybody could assume having that conversation with a mechanic would result in any other outcome.
If he wasn't willing to give her a free estimate, he should have said so, so he can take her car elsewhere. I've been to plenty of mechanics that do free estimates.
Did she actually ask for a free estimate? Does the mechanic advertise free estimates? Or did she just drop off the car and say 'don't do anything that would cost money'?
posted by obiwanwasabi at 4:44 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
When I ask my mechanic to call me before 'doing anything' that's going to 'cost money', it's pretty clear to all concerned I mean 'perform no actions that will incur a charge in addition to your labour for working out what's wrong'. 'Do', in this case, very obviously means 'repairs', not 'diagnostics'.
For example: by all means, Herr Mechaniker, tell me I need a new power steering pump, and charge me for the time it took you to arrive at that opinion - typically a standard minimum charge ($66 at my mechanic) - but don't order or install a new pump until I say so.
I've just done a straw poll around the office and people are shaking their heads with disbelief that anybody could assume having that conversation with a mechanic would result in any other outcome.
If he wasn't willing to give her a free estimate, he should have said so, so he can take her car elsewhere. I've been to plenty of mechanics that do free estimates.
Did she actually ask for a free estimate? Does the mechanic advertise free estimates? Or did she just drop off the car and say 'don't do anything that would cost money'?
posted by obiwanwasabi at 4:44 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
If there was no agreement on a free estimate, then the conversation would probably go something like this:
You: Don't do ANYTHING that might cost money without talking to me first.
Them: OK, I'm talking to you.
posted by proj at 4:47 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
You: Don't do ANYTHING that might cost money without talking to me first.
Them: OK, I'm talking to you.
posted by proj at 4:47 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
This sounds like a case of miscommunication. Your sister's mechanic isn't trying to rip anyone off, he just interpreted your sister's words the way he's used to interpreting them. Your sister, on the other hand, did not realize there was another way to interpret what she said. No malice on anyone's part, just a genuine misunderstanding. Pay the bill, learn the lesson.
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 5:03 PM on December 13, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 5:03 PM on December 13, 2010 [4 favorites]
I was just talking with a mechanic about the very issue of paying for diagnostics. It used to be that one could expect a mechanic to "diagnose" a problem, without charge, and then fix it, with a charge, of course. He told me those days are over. Your sister has a misunderstanding here, simple as that. A diagnoses is not free. A fight is being made where none exists.
posted by Dick Paris at 5:43 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Dick Paris at 5:43 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
Nthing the pay the bill, learn the lesson. Under normal circumstances I would side with you, because I've been there and I know how it feels to feel like you've been swindled, but from your OP to your responses here, I have to say that it really looks like you and your sister made the mistake of:
a) assuming you could ask the guy to uphold a verbal agreement
b) asking the guy to not charge you money in the first place
c) leaving your car at his garage without taking the time to go over his service fees in detail
d) not educating yourself about what it means to take your car to any mechanic
Be careful about going public with this. I do not think that you are in a place to use negative publicity as leverage. It could further alienate the owners of this garage and push them to sue you for slander. That will cost you far more than it will just to pay for the diagnostic services, get the car back, and go somewhere else.
posted by patronuscharms at 6:03 PM on December 13, 2010
a) assuming you could ask the guy to uphold a verbal agreement
b) asking the guy to not charge you money in the first place
c) leaving your car at his garage without taking the time to go over his service fees in detail
d) not educating yourself about what it means to take your car to any mechanic
Be careful about going public with this. I do not think that you are in a place to use negative publicity as leverage. It could further alienate the owners of this garage and push them to sue you for slander. That will cost you far more than it will just to pay for the diagnostic services, get the car back, and go somewhere else.
posted by patronuscharms at 6:03 PM on December 13, 2010
So help your sister out and pay for the estimate. Then you get to lord it over her for having been so stupid. Meanwhile stop wasting any more of the mechanic's time.
posted by wkearney99 at 6:57 PM on December 13, 2010
posted by wkearney99 at 6:57 PM on December 13, 2010
Room 641-A writes "I've also never had a car with a computer in it, so I'm curious if running a diagnostic is computer-related, and different than 'getting an estimate'"
Anything post '96 (IE: OBD) presenting symptoms that aren't of a gross mechanical failure the best way to make an informed diagnostic is to read the codes. A mechanic who doesn't is just making WAGs.
posted by Mitheral at 8:04 PM on December 13, 2010 [2 favorites]
Anything post '96 (IE: OBD) presenting symptoms that aren't of a gross mechanical failure the best way to make an informed diagnostic is to read the codes. A mechanic who doesn't is just making WAGs.
posted by Mitheral at 8:04 PM on December 13, 2010 [2 favorites]
I just asked my mechanic boyfriend this question:
"If someone brought a problem car in to you and told you not to charge her for anything until you called her, would you assume that she's also talking about the fee for diagnostics?"
He laughed and said no. He also said he has to explain that to people all the time. Not charging you for anything would mean parts and labor for anything else, not the diagnostic test. The mechanic could have probably been a little more clear in his words but you're still in the wrong here. If they don't advertise free estimates or diagnostics, pay the damn fee for christ sake and stop being a cheap ass.
posted by MaryDellamorte at 9:28 PM on December 13, 2010 [4 favorites]
"If someone brought a problem car in to you and told you not to charge her for anything until you called her, would you assume that she's also talking about the fee for diagnostics?"
He laughed and said no. He also said he has to explain that to people all the time. Not charging you for anything would mean parts and labor for anything else, not the diagnostic test. The mechanic could have probably been a little more clear in his words but you're still in the wrong here. If they don't advertise free estimates or diagnostics, pay the damn fee for christ sake and stop being a cheap ass.
posted by MaryDellamorte at 9:28 PM on December 13, 2010 [4 favorites]
It would be helpful to know just how much the bill is. Another vote for the mechanic being entitled to charge a diagnostic fee for his time.
I think your sister was naive for thinking she could get a free diagnostic without having it in writing. Short term, paying the bill will sting; long term, it's cheaper than lawyers.
posted by arcticseal at 11:42 PM on December 13, 2010
I think your sister was naive for thinking she could get a free diagnostic without having it in writing. Short term, paying the bill will sting; long term, it's cheaper than lawyers.
posted by arcticseal at 11:42 PM on December 13, 2010
Mitheral: Anything post '96 (IE: OBD) presenting symptoms that aren't of a gross mechanical failure the best way to make an informed diagnostic is to read the codes. A mechanic who doesn't is just making WAGs.
Ahh.... My current (and "newest") car is a '93, so I've never encountered this. Thanks!
posted by Room 641-A at 12:07 PM on December 14, 2010
Ahh.... My current (and "newest") car is a '93, so I've never encountered this. Thanks!
posted by Room 641-A at 12:07 PM on December 14, 2010
Response by poster: Thanks, LOLAttorney2209 and Statsgirl. According to that statute, mechanics aren't allowed to charge for diagnostic testing without explicitly saying so beforehand, or posting their fees in the entrance of the shop. This mechanic followed neither. I knew something was off about the whole thing.
posted by shesaysgo at 9:07 AM on December 15, 2010
posted by shesaysgo at 9:07 AM on December 15, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by restless_nomad at 12:12 PM on December 13, 2010 [6 favorites]