Help for a Very Late Bloomer

November 29, 2010 8:21 PM

I am a guy who is inexperienced with relationships. I like a girl who has been my friend for couple of years. I don't know what her feelings are. We sometimes hang out together, but usually with other people. I want something more but don't know how to proceed. Details inside.

I've read similar AskMes that's variations on this theme, but I feel like my situation is snowflaky enough to warrant its own question.

Background on me: 30 years old, never had a relationship. My dating history consists of a few polite first dates via OKCupid. On physical side of things, let's just say not only have I not reached any bases, I don't even know what the baseball stadium looks like. You may ask what's my problem, and I am pretty certain that my problem has always been shyness and lack of confidence, which I have been working on. It's getting better; I no longer have a internal freak out in stressful social situations, but I still have a long way to go.

So, back to the situation at hand. I've always liked this girl and we are in the same grad program together. A couple of years ago I summoned enough courage to ask her out but she politely declined. Then she got into a relationship and the combination of hearing her happy, sometimes too explicit, chatter about her man and my inability to deal with my own loneliness tipped me over into a period of pretty profound depression. Everyone in the program knew about it; it was awkward.

Fast forward to now, she ended that relationship some months ago. Several weeks ago, while she and I were walking to the parking lot after dinner with other friends, she volunteered that since we both have a lot of free time this month "we should do more meals." I am not sure whether she meant it as a hint to something more or simply as a friendly reminder to organize more group dinners. Then last week while out in a bar, when talking to her she put her arm around me and was pressing into me a bit. I don't know if that's flirting or merely being physically affectionate as she is known to be after a few drinks.

I like this girl and want to date her. But I feel woefully ill-equipped to interpret romantic signals; they may as well be in semaphore code for me. I know that my lack of confidence makes it difficult for me to believe that girls are interested in me. So I feel I can't trust my own judgment. Further complicating things is that she and I may work closely for school projects in the future months. She was really awkward around me after her first refusal two years ago and I fear that my depressive episode after her starting the relationship could make things even more awkward after a second refusal.

So, after all that, how do I proceed? How do I find out whether she is interested in me?

posted by anonymous to Human Relations (16 answers total)

She sees you as a nice guy, not someone she wants to date. Sorry.

Go back to OKCupid, go out on dates with girls. It's a numbers game. Eventually you'll find someone with whom you click.

But this girl sounds like she has placed you in "nice guy" category.
posted by dfriedman at 8:28 PM on November 29, 2010

This is not the right girl for you to learn on. By which I mean that the stakes are too high, and you should let this one go.

To be frank, it sounds to me like she is using her knowledge of your affection for her as a crutch while she deals with her break up. She knows that you adore her, and she can depend on you for positive reinforcement. I don't mean to imply that her behavior is malicious in any way, in fact, I doubt that she realizes that she's giving you signals at all. However, I also doubt that "doing more meals" means anything more than keeping her company while she's feeling lonely -- that is, that while your company is pleasant and lovely, it's simply pleasant company that she's after, not your specific company. You can be relied upon for the physical affection she's missing in the wake of her breakup, and for support, but to her it isn't important who is offering that comfort.

So let her go. Be her friend, but look elsewhere for romance.
posted by amelioration at 8:29 PM on November 29, 2010 [8 favorites]

You made it very clear that you were interested before and she made it clear that she was not. If she has changed her mind, the onus is on her to make it just as clear. In all probability, she has not changed her mind. Do not waste another minute pursuing her.
posted by grouse at 8:30 PM on November 29, 2010 [3 favorites]

A couple of years ago I summoned enough courage to ask her out but she politely declined.

Let it go and find someone who is unequivocally in to you. You are, in the parlance of our times, friend-zoned.
posted by 2bucksplus at 8:30 PM on November 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

She's not, at least, not romantically. She sees you as a platonic friend.
posted by axiom at 8:30 PM on November 29, 2010

I suspect that since she's very aware you previously had a thing for her, she's using you as an ego boost in the aftermath of her breakup.

However, it almost doesn't matter. The answer to the question "How do I find out whether she is interested in me?" is always the same: ask her out. You can hedge by saying "Do you want to have dinner on Thursday?" and seeing if she accepts, declines or accepts and invites other people. If you wanted to test the theory of if she's interested, that's how I would do it.
posted by DarlingBri at 8:36 PM on November 29, 2010 [3 favorites]

Agreeing that this is not the girl for you to have a first ever relationship with. There's too much baggage there--she rejected you once, you sank into a deep depression upon hearing about her dating life, you have a well-established friendship, you both attend the same grad program, you're likely to work closely together in the future. Too much material for you to over-analyze, too much built up in your mind already.

Go out on more OkCupid dates, or ask friends to set you up, or join activities outside of your grad program to try to expand your social circle. There's a sweet spot of acquaintance who is likable and seems nice--not a stranger, not a friend. It gives you a chance to get to know each other a bit before you ask her out, but it also cuts out the awkwardness of trying to navigate from friendship to romance. I mean, sure, some people prefer to begin their relationships out of a friendship, it just seems complicated to me and has never worked out for me. Being friends with someone I had a crush on has only ever led to over-analyzing and angst on my part, never a successful dating relationship. YMMV, but it sounds like you're prone to the same kind of obsessing and over-analyzing that I am.
posted by Meg_Murry at 9:08 PM on November 29, 2010 [3 favorites]

You asked her out. She said no. You continued to be friends, and she recently suggested hanging out more and touched your arm or something. I think it's pretty clear that she's not romantically interested in you.

But if you want to find out, ask her out on a date. You have to use the word "date" because you're already hanging out as friends, so going for a drink or dinner is just the status quo. Asking her out is better than confessing your feelings because there's no good response to "I'm crazy about you."

Side note: You need to get over her and start dating (with that, "fake it till you make it" is actually good advice). You didn't ask about this, but continuing to be friends is making it impossible for you to get over her. This sucks, but you may have to friend dump her for your own well being.
posted by J. Wilson at 9:09 PM on November 29, 2010

The way I know if a girl wants to go out with me is I look at the subtle . For example, over txt message, I said hey to a girl I've liked for a while. (She most likely knows I liked her because i took her out to ice cream over the summer and I took her to a school dance) When your both on Verizon, you can see when the person opens a message. (handy feature to know if someone is stalling or simply not by there phone. :D) She was actually the one that told me that feature so I know she knows what it meant when it took her a good 5 minutes to respond with "hellos" after immediately opening my message. So the way she answered my message tells me shes not interested. Funny how a simple exchange of words can tell you so much. :D

I kept on in that conversation and to sum it all up, her phrasing was all pointing to the sign she was not interested and she didn't engage really engage in conversation. One part of that conversation I said, "I was going to ask if you wanted to do something today, but this weather really sucks (tornado warning) and tomorrow is suppose to be super cold. :/

She responded with how she was extremely busy the rest of the week and had no time to hang out with me. She didn't include any "I'm really sorry but" or "some other time"s. Which would have shown that she was interested.

So in summary, pick up on the little signs. The fact that she told you that you should arrange more meals is a very good one. At dinner, pay attention to why she enjoys them. Is it because of the other people? Or is she constantly talking to you? If you feel that the signs are pointing to her being interested, take a bold move and tell her "hey lets go out tonight, just the two of us" if shes enthusiastic, thats a great sign, its shes like yea sure, shes probably saying "hey a free meal" in her head, but even then, she just might be a hard person to read. The subtle things are the biggest things to watch out for.
posted by NotSoSiniSter at 9:34 PM on November 29, 2010

Here's what you do. Start getting busy. Decline her requests to hang out.

This will have a dual effect. You will start getting free of this crush and you will stop being taken advantage of.

Next, read Intimate Connections by Dr. David Burns. Do everything it says. Do the exercises religiously for several months.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:39 PM on November 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

I think what's going on here is that she is trying to extend an olive branch to you to clear the air. She sounds like a nice person that likes you as a person and wants to be your friend, but that is all. It also sounds like she doesn't want you to feel bad or embarrassed about what happened in the past, but I don't see any reason to believe that her feelings have changed since she previously declined to go on a date with you.

I do not believe she is leading you on to stoke her ego. After two years she probably assumes you no longer have feelings for her. You two share the same social circle through school, so you both see each other and I think it's a very nice gesture to try and rebuild the friendship. She isn't calling you up out of the blue to hang out after two years, she's talking to as part of her extended group of friends.

If you can, accept her friendship for what it is, and nothing more. Of course, it's also ok if you don't feel like you can be friends with her (as opposed to polite acquaintances). Time to move on either way. Good luck. Don't beat yourself up over this. We've all liked people who didn't feel the same way, you just have to keep trying.
posted by whoaali at 10:53 PM on November 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

None of the possible futures is especially bad if you now start being honest with her. You had strong feelings for her few years ago. She knows it, everybody knows it. She may be trying to patch it, to make it clear to herself that this difficult phase is over. You need to tell her it isn't.

Your own problem that you have to state to her is: This current closeness is bringing back those feelings (which really never went away?).

Her problem: can she deal with honesty and respect having a friend who may be falling in love with her?

This is the discussion you will want to have. You don't want to, because it pre-empties the possibility for a romantic movie ending where she discovers, after falling in love with you, that you are in love with her too. That romantic role doesn't suit for you anyway because of your inexperience. You don't want to have any mystery and surprises in this relationship, because you will be needing to be able to ask her about everything that you think that a good boyfriend should know about.

If you make your case that for you in this path lies falling in love, then her options are:

1) To get distance and be polite about it. (Good! Some closure and mutual understanding. Now to a fresh start.)

2) To play down the problems and to think that your friendship/relationship is worth of those possible future sorrows. (Good! Now the cat is out of the box, your emotions are a topic that your friend has agreed to be part of your relationship and you can talk, talk, talk about them. It won't necessarily lead to romantic relationship with her, but you'll learn a lot. And if she starts to feel for other men, and you're still for her, you two know enough to agree that now it is time to separate, and you both can have a nice life.)

3) To say that she knows, and that's what she wants.
posted by Free word order! at 1:24 AM on November 30, 2010

Just going to throw my weight behind the consensus here: she's not into you. I think meg_murry has it, in the sense that the majority, not all, but the majority of relationships do not start from long-term friendships of any kind, let alone friendships with the kind of baggage yours has.

I think if you go out and start meeting new people, once you find someone else you're into then your feelings for this girl will dissipate and you can get on with your life. You've just got to let yourself do it. I'm a big believer in OKCupid and it is most definitely a numbers game. So start playing it! If you were getting even polite first dates out of it, you're doing something right there. Keep doing that.
posted by Ted Maul at 1:44 AM on November 30, 2010

my dog, i have been in your shoes on several occasions and would like you to illuminate the answer -- which you already have. Unfortunately it is not the answer that you like therefore I would surmise you are choosing to ignore it.

my inability to deal with my own loneliness tipped me over into a period of pretty profound depression. Everyone in the program knew about it; it was awkward.

I doubt it was your inability to deal with your own loneliness as much as you were suffering from extreme cognitive dissonance -- that you had built this person, and a potential relationship, up so greatly in your mind. Her relationship therefore required that you accept that she was not your to be, which you could not do, thus the depression.

There may be a bit of OCD here (not an insult) and you'll do better if you are aware of that and can disconnect how you feel from what is really happening.

I am not sure whether she meant it as a hint to something more or simply as a friendly reminder to organize more group dinners. Then last week while out in a bar, when talking to her she put her arm around me and was pressing into me a bit. I don't know if that's flirting or merely being physically affectionate as she is known to be after a few drinks.

'To a man with a hammer, all things are nails.' Is it possible that you are looking at all of her actions and searching for the ambiguity that would allow you to continue with your belief that there is a potential relationship here?

I like this girl and want to date her. But I feel woefully ill-equipped to interpret romantic signals; they may as well be in semaphore code for me. I know that my lack of confidence makes it difficult for me to believe that girls are interested in me. So I feel I can't trust my own judgment.

Unfortunately my friend, it appears to me that you have built her up in your mind and that your goal is not a relationship but rather possession. Chances are you can read the signals and are reading them. The comment about trusting yourself is key. Perhaps your rational mind is overwhelming your emotional sensations. You emotions screaming out that indeed there is too much ambiguity here to take the risk that previously lead to an intense depression and social embarrassment. Meanwhile your rational mind is creating a narrative in which your lack of experience is to blame -- thus you can exist in the place of ambiguity.

Further complicating things is that she and I may work closely for school projects in the future months. She was really awkward around me after her first refusal two years ago and I fear that my depressive episode after her starting the relationship could make things even more awkward after a second refusal.

The last time you took the course of action you are asking about the results were:
1) you became extremely depressed
2) she felt very uncomfortable
3) your colleagues probably also received a mixture of each

Are you in graduate school to move yourself ahead and life and contribute to the world around you or are you on a bootyquest? If it's the former, then you really need to let this go and focus on why you are there. If it's the latter, than god help you man, there are much easier ways to go about it.

In the experience of most people that I know, when it's on, it's on. When a woman is interested in a man, she will make it happen. And likewise. It's supposed to be easy. If it is not easy, you are on a quest and whilst you may make something happen, it will probably not be what you want. Actually, it will probably be quite terrible for the reality is that you and this woman are not an appropriate match.

So, after all that, how do I proceed? How do I find out whether she is interested in me?

How you proceed is to live your life and find someone with whom dating is easy. It doesn't have to be your life partner, it can even be a few dates where you understand what a natural, bidirectional relationship is. What you are doing now is obsessing and it will be to your demise.

Granted there may be a Hugh Grant love story in here somewhere but that is not the common experience. The common experience is ongoing deep pain and frustration because you are trying to make this something that it is not.

For yourself, perhaps do some thinking on why you are afraid of success with women. I would say it begins with your lack of acceptance of rejection. When she rejected you the first time, your attitude was not healthy -- sounds like you internalised it and came to believe that because she rejected you, you had less of a value as a person. If that is indeed a pattern, you may be replicating it other places.

That is, setting lofty intellectual goals that do not align with your emotional realities. If you have the distinct feeling of banging your head against a wall whilst those closest to you cannot seem to understand the problem, then you may want to look at that.

Overall, the best way to attract any woman is to become the man that you want her to be with. Make yourself happy, healthy, and strong. Date women and keep it easy. Maintain a core group of male friends so that you don't look toward dating to source your identity.

Once you have mastered yourself, a princess will arrive.
posted by nickrussell at 2:04 AM on November 30, 2010 [32 favorites]

Damn it nickrussel, let me buy you a drink. And then marry you.
posted by Ted Maul at 3:06 AM on November 30, 2010 [2 favorites]

i'm going to go against the grain here and suggest acting a little more unavailable (but not like a douche). you seem like a really nice guy and women don't aren't attracted to that. blow her off a few times and/or start a new "cool" hobby with cool friends, and talk about it but do not invite her.
make her work for your time and attention.
you might get some results.
posted by spacefire at 5:57 PM on February 7, 2011