Relationship feels it's nearing its end ... again. Need advice.
November 12, 2010 8:30 AM   Subscribe

My relationship of 4 years is hanging on a precipice today, with the final decision left entirely in my girlfriend's hands. Even if she elects to continue, should we?

A little background: my girlfriend and I have seen each other for 4 years, and were supposed to get married in July. She called off the wedding, based on my behavior which I fully admit was inappropriate. I was lying to her about my whereabouts, and I had somewhat regular contact with an old friend (woman) who I shared a large amount of my thoughts and feelings with. There was no real justification; I was fed up in our relationship but knew I didn't want to call things off. I just wanted our relationship to improve. At the heart of the matter was the fact I felt I was making tremendous sacrifices for our relationship to remain together, while also molding my life with and around her, and I didn't feel like she adequately reciprocated. Many of my problems with her stemmed from that.

When push came to shove, my girlfriend wanted to leave me; I pleaded with her to stay with me, let her know I'd do whatever she wanted to keep us together, and she came back with a request for me to let the girl know she couldn't be in my life anymore, and that she was ruining my relationship. I wrote that friend an e-mail and cc'd my girlfriend on it, trying to be somewhat gentle but firm about my commitment to my girlfriend and the fact our friendship couldn't continue. My girlfriend had an appointment with a counselor to discuss all of this and decide whether she wanted to continue; after the session,she said she didn't. The engagement ended. I was devastated. I lost a friend (the other girl) and my fiance.

Fast forward to a couple of months later, and the guilt of my actions and the desire to be with her prompted me to propose getting back together. After much deliberation, she decided to give it a go again. We have been trying to work on the relationship for the last three months. It hasn't always been pretty, but my commitment to her has never been stronger. I have sought to make changes within myself to make me a more compatible partner, started taking medication in order to fight chronic depression (which I only realized recently I have) and have really worked to try and be a better mate for her, and she recognizes me efforts and strides. But something funny has happened.

I recently, for one of the first times ever, trusted her entirely with a situation which had the potential to hurt me greatly. I don't trust easily, and this particular situation involved a guy who was coming on to her at work (he is her boss). We talk a lot, and from the beginning of the summer, I knew this guy was trying to come on to her, although she said she didn't believe it. I would get upset at what I thought was her stoking the fire (going out with him and his roommate to movies and things), but she told me she would handle it, and if she saw anything was getting inappropriate, she would stop hanging out with him and cut off their friendship. I didn't like her methods and hearing how she was going about it would upset me, so I just asked her to take care of it and not let me know the details. I trusted her and didn't ask anymore questions.

Early this week I really began to mull over a feeling I was getting from her; that I couldn't make her happy. I had a couple of dreams about it, and one morning noticed she left her cell at home while she went to work. I tried to fight the urge to invade her privacy, but I'd been asking her for a couple of weeks what was wrong, and she told me "nothing." I failed to resist. In her texts, she discusses her friendship with her boss to another friend; they discuss the fact he asked her to take a day off work to "hang out" together, and talk about the implications that request prompts (skipping work to have sex), to which my girlfriend replied "why would he do that? I'm not that type of girl!"

I confronted her about it, and she says that reply was a joke to her friend. She also told me the problem was resolved through a series of e-mails between him and her; I requested to see them, and she sent them. But the e-mails were completely one-sided; he was pouring out his feelings for her, and her replies were all about the discomfort she felt at him being her boss, and how he might get in trouble. I pressed further, asking to see the original e-mails in her inbox to match up with the ones she sent, and that's when the truth came out. She changed them before she sent them to me, and in them she reciprocated his affection, and still held the line that she was uncomfortable and didn't want to do it. Then the other lies came out, most notably that she arranged to meet him at a restaurant to hang out a week prior to the e-mail conversation.

I told her I didn't want to break up and I wanted to understand why things happened, and what about me or the relationship made her want to do these things and lie to me about them. She told me that she reciprocated his feelings because she didn't want to hurt them, and that she just thought after doing so, if she just made herself unavailable by agreeing and then breaking dates, he would just go away. She did that, but she also went out with him once, which makes me question how effective she thought that tactic really was. In the end, I just wanted to talk, but she freaked out; she started to talk about the fact that she has never done anything in her life like this, she was sorry to hurt me, and that she was going to find out what was going on with herself and see if she wanted to stay in our relationship. I was confused; I didn't think her mistake would lead her to trying to decide whether or not she wanted to stay with me, especially considering I was forgiving her for everything. But she has stuck to that line, saying she wasn't ready to get back into a relationship with me, and that that apprehension caused her to do things like she was doing instead of fully embracing my efforts. I didn't know any of this was happening or anything of how she was feeling, and it has hit me like a freight train. I should note that I have moved to the same city she lives in and have been here for less than a month. I feel I am heavily invested, having made yet another sacrifice to be around, but feel this thing is going in cycles. I do, however, want to stay with her, to fix the issues, despite my apprehension I'm not being told the true motive of her recent actions.

She visits her counselor today to see if there's anything about this situation she's not seeing or should think about, and seeing how great that went last time, I can't help but feel it's over (she's made up her mind she wants to leave, because of the pain she's causing me and the fact she doesn't know whether we'll work out; this new situation makes her have doubts). The small sliver of hope I have that we will get a chance to try and work on it prompts the question ... should we? She says she loves me and knows I'm not happy with her efforts, but she says there's a block there that's keeping her from giving us a fair shot. But the funny thing is, I asked if if I hadn't found out about her lying, would she feel the same way; she replied that she would, but she would have told me with the idea that we needed to sit down and talk about the problems and what we could do to fix them. Because her lying thing was uncovered, now she just wants to leave, because she doesn't think we'll bounce back.

Anyway, that's the extent of it. If the counselor doesn't say anything to get her to reconsider, I'll have lost this relationship a second time. And I'm having a hard time coming to grips with that. But even if she says she wants to stay, it's clear we have a lot of work to do. I think the reason she wants to run is because she's not willing. Should I even try to keep convincing her?
posted by solidus to Human Relations (78 answers total) 4 users marked this as a favorite
 
There is no relationship that is worth this much drama.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:36 AM on November 12, 2010 [39 favorites]


Trust, once lost, is very hard to regain. Maybe you should counselling together, but I've said this elsewhere to answer other questions -- being in a relationship where you have to wonder if the person is possibly going to cheat on you, where you feel a desire to read texts or emails to have confirmation that they are or aren't, is just a horrible, draining experience. Do you want a marriage like that? Signing a marriage certificate won't change these fundamental questions you have about each other's behaviour.
posted by modernnomad at 8:38 AM on November 12, 2010 [4 favorites]


It's over.
posted by otherwordlyglow at 8:40 AM on November 12, 2010 [6 favorites]


Response by poster: To roomthreeseventeen: Objectively, I would agree, except for the fact that I feel we have an inordinately strong connection, and that our differences can be made up for by hard work and understanding (we register as total opposites on the MBTI, for instance). I want to do that. I want to try.
posted by solidus at 8:41 AM on November 12, 2010


Should I even try to keep convincing her?

No. You guys are or have been both looking outside of the relationship for other kinds of intimacy. Give yourself and her some space -- move on, deal with your depression, find a way to be happy. If you eventually end up back together (not exactly an unusual outcome), that's great, and if not you are still going to be a happier person.

Because her lying thing was uncovered, now she just wants to leave, because she doesn't think we'll bounce back.

That sounds pretty normal to me. As long as things are kept silent and secret, there's the possibility of continuing to pretend. With things in the open, you can't pretend any more. I don't think she's feeling it right now, and I really hope you don't guilt or pressure her into staying in the relationship for the moment.
posted by Forktine at 8:41 AM on November 12, 2010 [3 favorites]


If you do mutually decide to stay together I'd focus on rebuilding trust and less on how much you luvvvvv (vs. love) each other and other transitory feelings that can rollercoaster in the course of a normal relationship. Building trust will lead to better, more secure feelings of consistent, day to day love, vs. the adrenaline filled we-almost-lost-each-other-but-got-back-together feelings that happen when people almost break up or reunite quickly.
posted by ShadePlant at 8:42 AM on November 12, 2010


Reading all that was exhausting. I can only imagine how tired the two of you are living it. You ask if you should keep convincing her to try again- why would you keep that doing that? You've been doing that since she canceled your wedding, and it hasn't gone very well. If she sees a counselor and decides to end the relationship, that's not the counselor's doing- it's her. If she wants out, you need to let her out, and let it sink in that the relationship is truly over. Yeah, it sucks that you gave up a lot, but in relationships, there's no sunk costs- she doesn't have to stay with you just because of what you've done for her in the past, as you're finding out. I wish you the best of luck.

On preview: I feel we have an inordinately strong connection, and that our differences can be made up for by hard work and understanding That's how YOU feel, and just because you feel that way does not mean she has to feel the same way or act in accordance with how you feel.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:43 AM on November 12, 2010 [9 favorites]


You guys really need to break up. There is just too much drama and too much resentment for this to ever work long term. You guys have both shown that you're each incapable of being truly faithful to each other.
posted by elpea at 8:43 AM on November 12, 2010 [3 favorites]


Response by poster: To modernomad: No it won't. But I want to trust her. This just happened 3 or 4 days ago. I just wanted to talk it out and get things going again. In the end, I'll have to take that leap to trust her again, and I will. I think she's done, though.
posted by solidus at 8:43 AM on November 12, 2010


Yeah, you're trying to rescue a sinking ship here. Sounds like all you're succeeding in is making each other miserable.
posted by brand-gnu at 8:44 AM on November 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


I tried to fight the urge to invade her privacy, but I'd been asking her for a couple of weeks what was wrong, and she told me "nothing." I failed to resist.

On this website there seem to be two camps regarding this behavior. There is the "we're only human" camp of it being okay, and the "this is a terrible thing to do" camp of it being not okay. I am in the latter. If you're looking for evidence of inappropriate behavior to the extent that you're surfing through her text messages, this is a relationship in terrible shape. Not just because you're doing it, but because everything will seem like said evidence after a while. Your suspicions will overtake you and make you miserable. Well, maybe. But my pet theory is that if you've broken down and looked through enough texts to establish a narrative -- regardless of how innocent it is -- you're past the line. There's no trust left in this relationship and everything you say backs this up.

Anyway, you haven't said a single nice thing about this relationship in this rather long post. You only talked about trust falling apart, possibly cheating, failed reconciliation, and so on. Even if there is something here to save, you haven't mentioned a word of it. Wat is there here to save?
posted by griphus at 8:45 AM on November 12, 2010 [2 favorites]


Response by poster: To PinkSuperhero: You're right. It's her call. I can't change that.
posted by solidus at 8:46 AM on November 12, 2010


Oh man! I'm so sorry. This sounds very difficult and painful. You have invested a lot and you obvious care for each other a lot. But (and it's a big but) you've both had emotional infidelity and I have to say I think this relationship is probably not going to last. I don't think you should keep trying to convince her. I think you, too, should seek a counselor or therapist to evaluate your feelings about the status of this relationship. It's a hard thing to do but I think it's probably time to move on.
posted by dchrssyr at 8:48 AM on November 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


Response by poster: To Griphus: I love her and she says she loves me. I want to work things out. We have a lot of good times, and for the problems we do have, I am really trying to be understandable, to work out solutions to them, to give her what she needs. I want to make her happy. I think she wants to do the same.
posted by solidus at 8:48 AM on November 12, 2010


Leave. Leave now before this gets any messier, or you do something you'll really regret, like get married and/or have kids. I promise that a connection this deep and overwhelming can and will exist with another person one day and it will feel silly that you cared this much about someone who waffles so much about their own feelings.

A troubled relationship can survive a lot of things but she has presented no indication that you should ever believe anything she tells you.

You know this is all kind of bad and you can't fathom life without her and maybe you're waiting for some sort of nudge or sign from the universe that it is okay to get out of this. Well, here it is: It's okay to get out of this.

Wish her a nice life, take up a hobby, spend more time with your friends, and get the hell away from this woman.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 8:48 AM on November 12, 2010 [12 favorites]


...to give her what she needs

I think she's made it pretty clear that what she needs is to no longer be in this relationship. Her vague agreeability toward fixing it seems to come entirely from prompting by you.
posted by griphus at 8:51 AM on November 12, 2010 [7 favorites]


Response by poster: To FAMOUS MONSTER: Thanks for the advice. It hurts because I want so desperately to just forgive her and continue. But I can't so it myself, and it seems I lost her some time ago. I've read some of the other threads on MeFi about going through a break up, and I'm dreading it, just like I'm dreading the end of this thing for good later this evening. Signs from the universe will help. Thanks for that.
posted by solidus at 8:52 AM on November 12, 2010


The breakup is going to be awful, it is going to hurt and it is going to suck and the best comparison I can give is when a bone sets wrong, you have to re-break it in order to fix it.

Your relationship is a bone that over time has set completely wrong. It's time to break that thing so you can walk normally. In the short term it will be painful but I promise you that in the fullness of time it'll feel like a tremendous weight has been taken off you.

You can survive this and more - you can live even better afterwards. I promise that you will.

Good luck.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 8:55 AM on November 12, 2010 [8 favorites]


Response by poster: To Griphus: You know, that's a good point. But when she states her problems, I have the power to fix them, and I try to. It's a work in progress, but I can't jump in a closet, mull it over for a while, and come out changed. It's a work in progress where I learn the best way to approach her about things. This situation with work, back in the day I just would have went off and expressed my extreme displeasure with her. My first words to her after it had come out where "I want to get past this and continue this relationship." I didn't get to that place overnight, and seeing that progress shouldn't have her feeling like we can't get it together. Well, I think it shouldn't.
posted by solidus at 8:56 AM on November 12, 2010


But when she states her problems, I have the power to fix them, and I try to.

You realize that's not true, right? (That's rhetorical- I can see that you don't). You can't "fix" everything. You CAN'T. It's not possible, and furthermore, it's not preferable. That's not what a healthy relationship is, having a partner whose constantly running around trying to "fix" your life. A healthy relationship will empower both partners to help themselves and each other. You seem to think that you can make this relationship work through the sheer power of your will, and you have got to realize that you both can't and shouldn't.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:02 AM on November 12, 2010 [21 favorites]


She called off the wedding, based on my behavior which I fully admit was inappropriate. I was lying to her about my whereabouts, and I had somewhat regular contact with an old friend (woman) who I shared a large amount of my thoughts and feelings with.

You should end this relationship based on this. Any hetero relationship where it's not okay for the partners to have friends of the opposite gender is not a relationship worth having.

Not that it was okay for you to lie to her, of course. But if you were lying to her because she would have freaked out about your going out to dinner with your female friend, that highlights a huge issue in the relationship.

You're both dialed up way too high on this. Seriously, the amount of drama in your post here is more drama than my husband and I have had in our eleven-year marriage.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:03 AM on November 12, 2010 [4 favorites]


So my advice is a) end this relationship, b) get some therapy to figure out why you're so addicted to drama.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:03 AM on November 12, 2010 [4 favorites]


She told me that she reciprocated his feelings because she didn't want to hurt them, and that she just thought after doing so, if she just made herself unavailable by agreeing and then breaking dates, he would just go away.

You believe this? You've made it clear for months that you are uncomfortable with her relationship with her boss (in exactly the same way that she was uncomfortable with your relationship with your former friend), and the idea that a sane person would come up with a plan to feign affection for him in order to push him away is ridiculous. She objectively does not care enough about your feelings to stop acting in ways that you feel are inappropriate, and in my opinion at least her justification is most likely a smokescreen to cover up the fact that she has real feelings for him.

A relationship doesn't have to be as difficult as your's seems to be. Find someone who actually cares about you enough to be honest with you and who you can do the same with.
posted by burnmp3s at 9:05 AM on November 12, 2010 [4 favorites]


solidus, I suggest you sit back for a while and let some responses roll in, and suppress the urge to take all comers. Trying to debate the finer points of your relationship with dozens of people simultaneously is going to wear everyone out.
posted by hermitosis at 9:06 AM on November 12, 2010 [9 favorites]


Response by poster: To Sidhedevil: Thanks for that perspective. I don't think I am addicted to drama; I thought it came with the territory of being total opposites. I want to work things out so we can have a regular, drama-free relationship, but I thought there are just some basic differences between us that don't lend themselves to automated resolution.

My behavior was inappropriate because I quit sharing details about my life with her. She didn't seem interested and rarely had anything to say about things; the old friend was very attentive. My girlfriend wanted me to keep trying with her, but I threw in the towel and went for the easier thing, not because I wanted to leave, but because I was exhausted. When she broke up with me the first time, I pleaded for her to stay. Guilt being what it is, I felt this second time around I would do everything I could to make it work. But now I'm being held hostage by a situation where I feel I did nothing wrong.
posted by solidus at 9:11 AM on November 12, 2010


Response by poster: To PinkSuperhero: You are right about trying to make it work through the sheer power of my will. I feel like eventually, if I show her my commitment, she can't help but join in, even if she is a bit apprehensive. I'm wrong.
posted by solidus at 9:12 AM on November 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


Response by poster: Hermitosis: Got it. Thanks.
posted by solidus at 9:14 AM on November 12, 2010


OP, maybe you should look over these replies. There is not one I saw which said anything other than, gently or directly, this relationship is over. Also, it seems like that is what your girlfriend has been doing.

You've been trying to convince yourself it's destined to work for a long time, and now you're trying to convince us. Letting go of that is going to be the hardest thing you have to do - after that you can start the healing.

Pull off that bandaid, friend. Get angry about it, grieve over it, do whatever you've got to do, but don't keep hanging on, you'll waste your life away.
posted by greenish at 9:14 AM on November 12, 2010 [2 favorites]


Relationships are work -- lots of work -- but they should never, ever, ever be this much work. Never, ever.

In my opinion, your relationship with this person should have been over when she made you lose a friend. But that's only one of many things that just seems like an absolutely soul draining experience.

The reason why people work at relationships is because they fill their soul with awesome feelings. Yours is not. Please, for both of you, take control of this situation rather than leaving it to her (which you have done many times -- by passively seeing someone you knew she didn't want to and then actively ending it because she made you, by waiting around for her to decide rather than make your own decisions) and go, go, go. And then go again.

Trust me -- it might hurt like hell now to end it. But not ending it now is like not ripping off a band-aid because it hurts now but ignoring the fact that if you don't, you'll have to amputate your own leg with a steak knife. It sounds like it's only going to get much, much worse.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 9:15 AM on November 12, 2010 [2 favorites]


Why is this only in her hands? I think it is in both of your hands. Look at it. You are here asking if she says yes, should you still do it?

I think putting that power of decision back into your hands might clear things up a lot.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:19 AM on November 12, 2010 [2 favorites]


Here's what I'm seeing. You're asking if you two should break up. People are telling you that yes, you should. And you're then replying yeah, but...yeah, but...yeah, but...

If you need permission to end the relationship, you have it.

But when you ask for advice and then tell everyone why their advice doesn't work for you, it seems like maybe you're looking for someone to agree with you that you and this woman should stay together and you're going to argue with anyone who says otherwise. That's not really asking for advice, is it.

And my $0.02?

End the relationship already.
posted by dzaz at 9:20 AM on November 12, 2010 [2 favorites]


Seems like you guys are having a magnet-style problem... you're ambivalent/pulling away from her UNLESS she's pulling away in some way (breaking an engagement, hanging with another guy), and then, you're drawn to her like OMG WE NEED TO SAVE THIS!

I dunno, man. A relationship needs to be based on more than a mortal terror of the pain of a breakup. And however strong a connection you say you guys have, from what I can tell, fear is the primary thing cementing your bond at this point.
posted by julthumbscrew at 9:21 AM on November 12, 2010 [17 favorites]


I want to trust her.
You say that you want to trust her, but in the first part of your post you described how you were dishonest and less than open with her several months back. It sounds like she lost trust with you way before you lost trust in her, and now she has another reason to not trust you. Any relationship in which someone stoops to reading the other person's e-mails (and I say that as someone who admits reading her mother's e-mails, also because "she says nothing") has one hell of a huge schism of trust.

[W]hen she states her problems, I have the power to fix them, and I try to.
They're HER problems. You can only control your own behavior. She is not a machine. Your relationship is not a machine.

I feel we have an inordinately strong connection, and that our differences can be made up for by hard work and understanding.

I felt that way too. Then I met my now-fiance, and WOW, did I realize how wrong I had been. Relationships take work, but it's work within yourself. You shouldn't have to work to just BE with someone.

When you're in a bad situation, particularly one that has gone on for a long time, you don't realize how distorted your perception can get. Your idea of "normal" becomes highly skewed at the same time you become less and less likely to see what a true norm really is. I'm not saying that you're a bad person by any means, but this stuff happens. If you're on a sinking ship, you'd do anything to keep your head above water, even some things that you'd never do otherwise. The same goes for relationships.

[I want] to give her what she needs. I want to make her happy.

While it's true that people in a relationship need certain things from each other, she's the only person who can articulate and ask for the things that she needs. If you're not getting it this far into the relationship, chances are it won't happen. And she is the ONLY person who can control her own happiness.

I'm sorry that you're in such a tough situation. I think some time apart would be the best option even if you thought you might get back together. But here's the catch: you must really, really spend time apart, even though she's the person who might understand you and the situation better than anyone else.

You're exhibiting what I've seen in a lot of guys: things may be sliding down, but it's a lot easier to stay than go. Hell, that's what anybody does; you stay until staying is worse than going. That's where your girlfriend is right now, and you don't seem to understand that because it's not about you.

This is not about you. You're in it, but it's not about you. Concentrate on the things that you can control within yourself.
posted by Madamina at 9:25 AM on November 12, 2010 [4 favorites]


I don't think I am addicted to drama; I thought it came with the territory of being total opposites. I want to work things out so we can have a regular, drama-free relationship, but I thought there are just some basic differences between us that don't lend themselves to automated resolution.

No human differences lend themselves to "automated resolution" (whatever that means). But in a healthy relationship, people are able to work things out without torturing themselves. Take a look at the work of Harville Hendrix, particularly Getting the Love You Want, for some insight into healthy patterns of negotiation and conflict resolution in romantic partnerships.

My behavior was inappropriate because I quit sharing details about my life with her. She didn't seem interested and rarely had anything to say about things; the old friend was very attentive. My girlfriend wanted me to keep trying with her, but I threw in the towel and went for the easier thing

What "easier thing"? Are you saying you had an affair with your female friend? Because, yeah, that isn't cool, if you and your gf had monogamy agreements.

If you're saying that somehow your talking about your life with a friend = "throwing in the towel" on your romantic partnership, I call "bullshit" in a loud and stentorian voice on that nonsense.

not because I wanted to leave, but because I was exhausted. When she broke up with me the first time, I pleaded for her to stay. Guilt being what it is, I felt this second time around I would do everything I could to make it work. But now I'm being held hostage by a situation where I feel I did nothing wrong.

Dude, you are so addicted to drama. This is a tough situation, and I feel for you, but look at all the ways you're self-dramatizing through your language here. You're "on a precipice" "being held hostage" blah blah. You're telling yourself that you can "fix her problems" and that you're all star-crossed because you're "total opposites".

Relationships are generally not this complicated. Again, look at Hendrix's work. Or John Gottman's. Or Pepper Schwartz's. Relationships that work are ones that aren't as stifling as the one you describe here.

I wish you well, I really do. But you are sounding like a song by The Offspring here: "The more you suffer/The more it shows you really care/Right?/Yeah!"
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:26 AM on November 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


My take is a bit less generous than ThePinkSuperhero's comment.

I think you're having a hard time seeing how manipulating your girlfriend is. Sure, lying to someone you're about to marry about seeing a woman (platonic or not) is a big dick move. You were wrong, made your apologies, and are genuinely trying to change. What should happen in that situation is you re-earn her trust, and she forgives you fully. You aren't supposed to live in the dog house forever. She had every right to be angry, but calling on you to make all the repairs, do all the work isn't a punishment, nor is it something you should/can do alone.

And then, lying about having a date with some other guy? It sounds like she's still punishing you in her own way. You've constantly sacrificed for the relationship, and tried to improve your self. Is she willing to do the same now that she's erred? Apparently not. No relationship can be all give or all take. You both need to be willing and able to work.

She doesn't want a boyfriend, husband, or a loving and equal partner. Right now, for whatever reason, she wants a puppet.

I know its hard to hear, but I've always been that bitchy friend that gives it as I see it. You will be so much better off with out her.

Improve yourself for you, not her or anyone else. Be that awesome, constantly improving person, and you'll have a lot to offer in your next relationship. Good luck.
posted by fontophilic at 9:28 AM on November 12, 2010 [6 favorites]


I haven't previewed the other replies, so I may be repeating what a lot of other people have said, but: I get an odd feeling while reading your question that your girlfriend/fiance REALLY REALLY wants out of this relationship and is now trying to create reasons to leave.

Break ups of long-term relationships REALLY suck, and I'm really sorry this is happening to you, but you HAVE to accept the fact that this is pretty much over. And that it being over is GOOD and RIGHT for you at this point in your life. She may love you, but she doesn't want to be with you. That's not exactly all that uncommon. You can love someone to the moon and back, and know that you just don't want to be in a relationship with them (anymore).
posted by SkylitDrawl at 9:28 AM on November 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


Since you are bracing yourself for a breakup and you have a handle on all the things that have gone wrong, as well as the fact that trust has been lost - maybe the breakup would be a relief?

If your trying to work things out of guilt, the worst has already have happened.

I broke up with someone after four years and fully expected this awful "aftermath". Esecially since he and I had been together years earlier and that breakup was heartbreaking. But after our second breakup, I started to realize that all the grieving and putting everything in perspective had already happened during the previous months. In your case, it seems you could only benefit from walking away.
posted by marimeko at 9:31 AM on November 12, 2010


Also: it seems like you're working REALLY hard at self-improvement for the good of the relationship. Is she working just as hard to better herself for the sake of the relationship? It doesn't seem like it to me.

Get out. Relationships are work, sure, but it's supposed to be (mostly) fun, easy work.
posted by SkylitDrawl at 9:32 AM on November 12, 2010


"I don't think I am addicted to drama; I thought it came with the territory of being total opposites."

This is Hollywood, not reality. In reality, "total opposites" (whatever that means) can have a harmonious and complementary relationship where their strengths support each others' weaknesses. You two just like drama.

I'm having a hard time understanding why you're desperate to save a relationship in which you were so unhappy you sabotaged it in the first place ... especially now that she's sabotaging it too.

Is this your first long term relationship? Just because you love someone doesn't mean you have to marry them ... it doesn't even mean it's a good idea to do so. It just means you love them. You can love people who are totally and completely toxic for you. You may need to admit to yourself, "Yes, I love her, but this simply isn't going to work out." (Because I don't see a way in which it could work out.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:32 AM on November 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


Dude, you are so addicted to drama. This is a tough situation, and I feel for you, but look at all the ways you're self-dramatizing through your language here. You're "on a precipice" "being held hostage" blah blah. You're telling yourself that you can "fix her problems" and that you're all star-crossed because you're "total opposites".

Forgive me, but I felt this remark needed to be emphasized.

...and sorry, but this relationship is over. It was over a while back.
posted by aramaic at 9:33 AM on November 12, 2010 [3 favorites]


But when you ask for advice and then tell everyone why their advice doesn't work for you, it seems like maybe you're looking for someone to agree with you that you and this woman should stay together and you're going to argue with anyone who says otherwise. That's not really asking for advice, is it.

everyone here has told you to end it and yet you keep insisting that you just can't, so what, exactly are you looking for here? validation? permission to stay with her? advice on how to stay with her? because you're not going to get any of those things. just end it. it will hurt and it will suck, probably for a long time, but in the long run, it will be better. and get some counseling.
posted by violetk at 9:43 AM on November 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


She's only making any vague gestures of conceding to your wish to reconcile because she has trouble saying no, as evidenced by her interactions with her boss.

Why are you so afraid of breaking up with her? Both of you have made major transgressions in regards to trust. It would be much healthier to just mourn the relationship and move on.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:50 AM on November 12, 2010


It seems to me that yes you two love each other, but the relationship is being held up by sheer force of will. Your will. She might love and respect you, but it doesn't seem like she wants to be in this relationship any more.

You might be able to squeeze a few more months out of this relationship the same way you squeezed out the last, but it will be emotionally and mentally exhausting for you and frustrating for her. In the end all you will have are those few months of being in a pseudo-relationship with somebody who has already mentally exited it.

After those few months are over you will be worse off than you are now and things might not end as neatly as they are now. Do you really want to have this relationship to end with her dumping you flat out for another person or do you want to leave with your dignity and respect for each other intact?
posted by TooFewShoes at 9:50 AM on November 12, 2010


This sounds like a horribly painful, exhausting experience, and I'm so sorry you're going through it.

I can't help noticing how powerless you feel like this whole thing is making you; you mention feeling as if all decisions here are in your girlfriend's hands, and you're helpless to do anything other than hunker down and wait. But even though it seems that way, it isn't, truly. One of the things that's helped me in any situation where I feel like that is thinking about all the ways in which I am making decisions - acknowledging that helps a great deal. And I think you are, too.

Take this, for instance:

"But the funny thing is, I asked if if I hadn't found out about her lying, would she feel the same way; she replied that she would, but she would have told me with the idea that we needed to sit down and talk about the problems and what we could do to fix them. Because her lying thing was uncovered, now she just wants to leave, because she doesn't think we'll bounce back."

I think that's bullshit myself ("I was absolutely going to turn this into a situation where I sat down with you and we had an adult conversation about working on things, but you ruined it!"), but look at what she's telling you there: "I would have been willing to work on this if you had been willing to stamp down all your suspicions and never confront me about them until a time of my choosing." You decided you did not want to be the kind of person who could, or wanted to, do that. - and that is perfectly fine, and indeed a good thing you can be proud of.

And whether or not she's telling the truth (to you and herself) about this specific situation, it sounds like there's a much broader sense here in which that's the dynamic she wants to have. Like, expecting you to buy that she just expressed interest and went out on a date with her boss to deter him. You're not willing to accept something that unlikely just because she says so; she resents you because of it. You're making a decision to be true to what your brain is telling you, and that's the decision she's responding to.

I'm not going to get into bigger issues of whether or not she's still punishing you for your previous actions, although it does sound like a lot of that is what's going on here, whether or not she realises it. But whatever's going on with her, you'll be in a better place to deal with things if you work out what decisions it is that you're making, what lines you're drawing, and why it's ok that you're drawing them.
posted by Catseye at 9:51 AM on November 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


It hurts because I want so desperately to just forgive her and continue.

I know this feeling so well. It caused me to stay in a dysfunctional relationship for a year or so longer than I should have. I found out she was cheating, and I was too quick to forgive, when the damage to the relationship hadn't been repaired, and I didn't couldn't know at that point that she wasn't willing to work on it.

If you do stay together, you have to understand that rebuilding trust is difficult. Both of you have violated each other's trust. And that means making sacrifices. It's hard. I'm not going to say your relationship is necessarily doomed, because I do think some relationships can survive cheating. (Or in this instance, just lying, since no actual cheating seemed to occur.)
posted by Tooty McTootsalot at 9:52 AM on November 12, 2010


When I saw the wall of text, I knew it was over.

Sorry man, but what you are doing to yourself is no way to live.
posted by jellywerker at 9:54 AM on November 12, 2010 [8 favorites]


Let it go. I've also done the "I was in that relationship a lot longer than I should have been" thing. He finally figured it out and left me.

Even though I sometimes still miss that relationship, I am so damn glad one of us had the guts to end it. It was broken. It was unfixable. Desperate is not a state to be in when trying to fix something. So let it break, move on, heal yourself, and deal with the future (be it anywhere from good friendship to no contact at all) in the future.
posted by nat at 10:10 AM on November 12, 2010


"I don't think I am addicted to drama; I thought it came with the territory of being total opposites."

Fact: my husband and I are total opposites. Couldn't be more opposite if we tried. (Well, ok, maybe if we tried *really* hard, but it'd be a lot of work.)

Our relationship has zero drama. None. Zip. Zilch. In fact, it works because we're opposites. We balance each other out. We provide stability that neither of us ever had when we dated people we had more "in common" with.

Drama comes with the territory of dating a dramatic person, not with having different personalities.
posted by sonika at 10:10 AM on November 12, 2010 [19 favorites]


"Drama comes with the territory of dating a dramatic person, not with having different personalities"

Very well said sonika!

Can't agree more with everyone else, time to move on.
posted by Blake at 10:16 AM on November 12, 2010


This sounds like dozens of sad stories I've heard over beers since I was old enough to drink, except with more deception. I'm sorry.

I don't think you know (or remember) what a good relationship is like. You know, one where you trust each other because neither of you feels the need to lie about your actions, everyone's motives are clear and you both show some enthusiasm for spending time together. Plus sex, if you're into that sort of thing. This has basically no hope of ever being that at this point, unless you're completely downplaying how great it was in those first 4 years. I'm going to echo some other comments and guess she's really not that into you anymore.

Casting my vote for salvaging some self-respect and DTMFA, with my condolences. This sucks.
posted by pjaust at 10:20 AM on November 12, 2010


This relationship sounds really lopsided to me like you are trying to work too hard and she doesn't want to work on it. You should leave.

Also, relationships should not require this much work. If you find that the relationship is taking as much work as this one did, you need to move on.
posted by WeekendJen at 10:27 AM on November 12, 2010


I think it's pretty obvious this is over, and I won't belabor the point. I do want to add that it's very important not to repeat the behavior of deciding to give it another go in a few months. She might be the one to propose it this time, from the same motivations that had you proposing it last time; you should prepare yourself for that possibility, and be ready to say no.
posted by longtime_lurker at 10:31 AM on November 12, 2010


You say that you want to be with her, but the only reason for this I can find is that you're "heavily invested."

The fact is, neither of you are all that into each other. If she loved you, she wouldn't be carrying on with and encouraging her boss. If you loved her, you wouldn't have lied to her, hid things from her, and snooped through her phone.

I understand that 4 years with someone seems like a lot for you to throw away, but at this point, you're not -- it's already gone.

(Also seconding the "drama" comments of so many others. There's no place for that in a healthy, real relationship.)
posted by coolguymichael at 10:36 AM on November 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


You know, you can love someone and still not be 'right' for them.
posted by Pecinpah at 10:39 AM on November 12, 2010 [7 favorites]


So, I was in a less upsetting relationship than this for about the same amount of time. I am, by nature, a "fixer".

I'm now involved with a woman I absolutely adore, and while I won't say it's all roses and there are never arguments, upsets, and little dramas, I'm so much happier in every facet of my life it seems impossible.

It is so hard to give up on something you've been working and suffering for this long, but you have to. Trust is the very basis of any relationship and this woman doesn't respect (and in fact seems to manipulate) your issues with it.

Love should be the thing that makes life worth living, not something you fear and dread.

Good luck friend........
posted by lattiboy at 10:41 AM on November 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


A different view: You f'd up, righted the ship operationally, relative to the ongoing thing and your frame of mind, mental health, etc. Why is it unthinkable that she could do the same?

Easier said, sure, but putting aside the question of her motivations for the boss thing, if she wants to right the ship, acknowledges her poor choices, she can make strides just like you did.

What she really wants, recognizes as a poor choice, etc., seems to be the key.
posted by ambient2 at 11:05 AM on November 12, 2010


It can be much harder to break off a bad relationship than a good one. You've spent so much time, put up with so many disagreements and frustration, holding onto hope that things will get better. It makes sense that you don't want to let go. Plus, you know you'll feel lonely, at least in the beginning, and everything will feel different and wrong for some time.

It's going to suck if you break up now or break up later. But you're definitely going to break up, based on what you said.

I recommend that you go to one or two counseling sessions, just yourself. It can help you untangle your conflicting feelings and thoughts. I wish you the best.
posted by wryly at 11:13 AM on November 12, 2010 [3 favorites]


Just because the relationship is over, doesn't mean that you have thrown away four years. You will need to move on, rebuild your life without her in it any more. But she will still be part of your past, the past that shaped who you will be It is possible to both move on and also appreciate the things that you gained by sharing your life with her for those four years.

Think about the things that you have learned from her (did she introduce you to new food, new music, new museum? taught you how to cuss in another language?), the things that you learned about yourself by being in relationship to her (your capacity for forgiveness?) as well as the memories that are worth storing away for when you are ready to take pleasure in the happy memories without being made miserable by the ending.
posted by metahawk at 11:14 AM on November 12, 2010 [4 favorites]


You need to break up with her, and then you need to think about your role in relationships. Really think about it. You sound like a whipping boy, pleading, trying to change, etc, etc. Unattractive to almost anyone.

I strongly recommend you read "The Way of the Superior Man", which (while thoroughly non-PC) has some incredibly good advice about how to create polarity in relationships without artificially creating drama or succumbing to whipping-boy status. Hint, she didn't want you to plead, and when you did, you lost attraction to her.

Saved my life after my divorce, that book.
posted by Invoke at 11:19 AM on November 12, 2010 [2 favorites]


You know that if you came into mefi and said, "I'm in a great relationship. Should we break up?" the overwhelming answer would be, "YES, DTMFA", right? If she comes back today and says she wants to try again, you sound like you're going to try, and that's your choice - no one here can make it for you.

But here's the thing that makes me think that if she comes back today and says you guys should break up, you should feel relieved:

She told me that she reciprocated his feelings because she didn't want to hurt them, and that she just thought after doing so, if she just made herself unavailable by agreeing and then breaking dates, he would just go away.

I'm afraid she's doing something similar to you, that she just doesn't have a good enough sense of her own feelings and needs to Know whether or not she wants to be with you, really be with you in an adult relationship. You guys have had some serious trust issues, so you'll have to work really hard on that if you stay together. So I have no answer to whether you guys should be together or not, but if you do keep trying? Work on trust and being honest with yourselves, and each other. Couples therapy would be great, if it's possible. Good luck!
posted by ldthomps at 12:22 PM on November 12, 2010


Wow, I'm sorry you both are having to go through this but the short answer is that the relationship is over, it's been over, and as hard as it is to come to grips with is that it's time to let go.

As it's been said previously, why do you want to live like this, always wondering if...

Could her lack of enthusiasm be caused because she understands how much you've committed even though she has checked out?

I think it's best you go separate ways. There is no doubt that you each care for each other but this is not what love is. You'll both find someone and and will eventually see what true love is supposed to feel like.

Good luck!
posted by doorsfan at 12:43 PM on November 12, 2010


Response by poster: Doorsfan: Could her lack of enthusiasm be caused because she understands how much you've committed even though she has checked out?

It very well could be. She hasn't been able to explain it, except to say there's a "block" there that won't let her embrace my efforts. I don't think she knows what that block is.

I agree with the majority of posters who say this thing is not salvageable. For the record, I wasn't trying to argue anyone's points; just trying to provide a little more detail, or my perspective. I appreciate all the great advice I received.
posted by solidus at 12:56 PM on November 12, 2010


Do you want your girlfriend to be happy? I see no mention of that at all. I see no concern on your part that you might be making her unhappy and wasting her time. How old is she? Does she want children? You realize you’re wasting her time by just “waiting to see if we can work through it?” What does that even mean? You wait around until you can actually find someone better, instead of getting cut off at the last minute like with the last woman? You wait for years to see if it just gets better on its own? It’s the path of least resistance to stay with a sure thing? I don’t really follow this. You have a strangely passive attitude in all of this, as if the “relationship” is imposing itself on you. You ARE the relationship. Why are you enjoying making yourself into a victim “hanging on a precipice with that final decision left entirely in her hands?” This sort of dramatic language, plus your girlfriend’s tendencies to go see a counselor and otherwise take pretty reasonable, logical steps to problem-solve, make me think that YOU are the unexamined drama queen here, not her.

It seems like you fall into a pattern of saying anything to win her back, but when she gives in, you don’t really do anything differently. “Fully admitting” your behavior was inappropriate means nothing. Talk is cheap. Solving and understanding the problems that led to that behavior to begin with would be actually doing something. I see a pattern of passive-aggressive tendencies and communication problems on your part (and hers). “I was fed up in our relationship but knew I didn't want to call things off. I just wanted our relationship to improve.” What? You were just hoping for…what exactly? Magic? You have to take action to improve your life. What is this language of “I want, I want to work it out, I don’t want it to be over…I should convince her?” Convince her? A relationship is not something you convince a woman to let you have. That’s just not a good paradigm. She doesn't take over and handle everything once you just beg and plead enough to get to "yes."

In short, I really think you should examine whether or not you are mature enough to handle a serious relationship right now. This woman was not just your girlfriend but your finance, and you were going to go through with marriage without even really liking her? Seriously, man? That’s really, really strange. You might want to try counseling for yourself to figure out why you don’t have much awareness of the feelings underlying this tendency to self-sabotage. There is a ton of wishful thinking and pretty words (and yes, a good portion of pathetic desperation) here, but there is no practical understanding, no hard work, no patience or self-awareness.

Tldr: You’re not good for her and she’s not good for you. You both have some growing up to do. This relationship is a crutch.
posted by Nixy at 12:58 PM on November 12, 2010 [2 favorites]


Response by poster: To Nixy: Points taken, and not arguing. If it comes off as passive aggressive, or that I don't want her to be happy, it's because I didn't want to write an even longer question with details. The dramatic language is there because of how it feels inside to me. It may come off as hyperbolic, but I'm not trying to construe it that way.

Of course I want to make her happy. We were in counseling (which I suggested) back when we were engaged, but we went through it at a church that I didn't find all that helpful. So I gave in and started to talk a lot more to my old friend than I did her, and it made her really upset. Upset to the point where she hated our closeness and bailed. This time around, I've researched to find medication for my depression, and worked constructively with her to address her concerns. When I say I want to fix her problems, I mean with ME; not her own. She doesn't like some things I do; if they really bother her, I try to change the behavior (leaving my socks on the floor after I take them off, for instance).

I don't know how you read my post and see that I've done nothing. The reason I moved to this city was because of her and because I felt that long distance, starting out again, was not a good way to do things. How does this come off as "saying anything to win her back, and doing nothing differently?"

I'm just trying to understand your post a bit more.
posted by solidus at 1:08 PM on November 12, 2010


Are you addicted to drama? Why are you so into a girl who isn't honest with you, isn't treating you well, and very probably just isn't that into you? She canceled your wedding, she's making dates with her boss, you had to beg her to take you back, and she told you she doesn't know how she feels about you. Oh, yeah, and she forbid you from being friends with another woman. This is the most obvious DTMFA I've seen in a long time.
posted by J. Wilson at 1:11 PM on November 12, 2010 [4 favorites]


Shorter version of my comment: She just doesn't have the balls to dump you. You both have the option to discontinue this relationship, and I suggest you exercise yours.
posted by J. Wilson at 1:15 PM on November 12, 2010


Response by poster: To J. Wilson and all who recommended it: It's over. Seeing all the comments and posts made me realize this thing is a wreck; I don't know how I rationalized that I could save it. Thanks all, for your comments and suggestions.
posted by solidus at 1:26 PM on November 12, 2010 [2 favorites]


You need to try less hard. Relax. Go limp. Get lazy. Settle in. Make your external life so difficult that you can't handle drama. Say things like this:

"I know we have a complex history and if you'd like to do some work together, like go to counseling, to make it better, I would be willing to do that. But obviously, if I'm the only one, it won't work."

"If you want to break up, I don't like it, but I accept it. I'd like to be with you, but if you have a block, I understand and respect that."

Guilt tripping her will feed the drama. Just let her have her own mental space where she makes her own decisions on her own. Live in your own mental space (influencing only yourself, fixing only yourself, consoling only yourself) with quiet dignity.

Best wishes to you.
posted by salvia at 1:28 PM on November 12, 2010


I don't know how you read my post and see that I've done nothing. The reason I moved to this city was because of her and because I felt that long distance, starting out again, was not a good way to do things. How does this come off as "saying anything to win her back, and doing nothing differently?"
Because, to be blunt here, you were doing that for you. If it was for her too, that was just a side-effect, but you moved there because you wanted to. I think owning that you went to all these lengths not just for her but because you WANTED to, because you wanted to hold on to the relationship, -admitting that to yourself would be much more honest and would cut back on the drama and resentment. Playing at being the most selfless one is a game I had to learn the hard way to cut out, believe me, but it's sooo much better feeling responsible for your own actions and admitting to yourself you did it for you as much as for her. I'm seeing a huge lack of agency here.
posted by Nixy at 1:30 PM on November 12, 2010


Response by poster: Again, to Nixy: I wanted to move here for OUR relationship. I would not be here if she wasn't here. I put in the effort because I want the relationship to last. I forgave her for the boss stuff because I wanted the relationship to last. I don't think there's anything about my comments that makes it sound like she's jerking me around; I do it because I want to. My problem here is that, after all that, she wants to walk away. I'm not the most selfless person, but here, without a doubt, I made the most effort. She would agree with that, and has. She can't reciprocate. That's the issue.

I hope that clears up any lack of responsibility for what's happened here that you may see on my part.
posted by solidus at 1:35 PM on November 12, 2010


My problem here is that, after all that, she wants to walk away.

Then the relationship is over. Both people need to want to be in a relationship for it to work.

And look, you've dodged a bullet here. The whole "you can't have opposite-gender friends" shit was an ENORMOUS red flag.
posted by Sidhedevil at 1:40 PM on November 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


I hope that clears up any lack of responsibility for what's happened here that you may see on my part.

Alright. Honestly, it doesn't matter if she was jerking you around or you were jerking her around, and I'm sorry if it appeared I was more invested in the argument than I was. At this point you just need to get out. If blaming her for everything helps you to feel less guilty and break your inertia, then go for it (not being facetious at all) The main thing is just to hit eject and abandon ship and get some time and distance under your belt, ASAP.
posted by Nixy at 1:45 PM on November 12, 2010


"There is no relationship that is worth this much drama."

Objectively, I would agree, except for the fact that I feel we have an inordinately strong connection

I don't think I am addicted to drama; I thought it came with the territory of being total opposites.



Heightened emotions are generated by heightened tension. This is what is so seductive about overly dramatic and self destructive relationships. But the paradox is, this is also what guarantees that they will either fail or become locked that repeats over and over and never goes anywhere. Because tension is heightened when it can not resolve itself and the more emotion there is in a situation the less likely the participants are to be able to move beyond it.

Consider this: If I put a cookie on the table in front of you and say "you can't have it" are you more or less likely to desire it than if I put it there and say "help yourself if you want"?

Emotions don't have any meaning. They are facts of pure experience. At best they are signs for something else. So the question we need to ask ourselves is "where do they come from?"

The reason I moved to this city was because of her

No the reason you moved to that city was because of YOU. Because YOU wanted to be near her. But you want to believe it is because that makes her responsible and then you get to live in a magic world where your life is not your responsibility, it's just something that happen to you.

I think the reason she wants to run is because she's not willing

Why would she not be willing to do the work she needs to do? In fact didn't you say "She visits her counselor today"? Isn't that doing just that. Could it be that something like the opposite is true: that what is going on is that she is not willing to take on your problems? Perhaps she want to run because she feel trapped, as if you moved to her city to say "I am here now. Now you can't avoid me. Now you have no choice but to take on my life for me" and no one can do that.
posted by tallus at 2:34 PM on November 12, 2010 [2 favorites]


Response by poster: Tallus: Maybe. All points of view are welcome here, but I'm not trying to trap her. She sees a counselor for her, not for us. If she has problems, she goes to the counselor. That's her own thing. So she's going to ask about her decision, and whether or not there's something she should be looking at that she isn't. That's it.

If she feels trapped, she can tell me. I'm open to finding out her problems, and leaving her alone. She's told me she's not willing to embrace my efforts, and she hasn't expended much energy in trying to get this to work. why would she? I don't know, and she doesn't either.

You know, I felt bad when I wrote the original question, but I was not trying to make it seem like I wasn't taking responsibility for what I've done here. In fact, I mentioned my prior indiscretion for just that reason; I am to blame for much of this mess. I just thought it was unconventional that, if a person messes up in their relationship, and decides to bail instead of do what it takes to get over it and move the relationship forward, why would they? I've asked her and I get no real clear answer. What is it indicative of? And if she changes her mind, or I can convince her that we should keep working, and that's it's worth saving, should we continue?

That said, I've already come to the conclusion to call it off. A majority of posts led me to that conclusion. Some of these posts are baffling to me, however. Yours is one of them.

I just don't understand where it seems I'm dodging responsibility and want to live in a "magic" world. ???

I probably should have wrote that instead of the above. But I feel like, in now way, am I dodging responsibility.
posted by solidus at 2:49 PM on November 12, 2010


I just don't understand where it seems I'm dodging responsibility and want to live in a "magic" world. ???

Yeah, you're not. In fact, the willpower discussion you had above with ThePinkSuperhero was right on. When you say "but when she states her problems, I have the power to fix them, and I try to," you are taking way (waaaaaay) too much responsibility. You need to get realistic about how little power you have, particularly where other people are concerned.

You can't fix this. Which reminds me of this more recent sentence: "if she changes her mind, or I can convince her that we should keep working" -- don't try to convince her! not because of all the rest of these posts, but because that is work that people just should not have to do. Let someone go when they want to go. Sorry, but the alternative is worse.
posted by salvia at 2:59 PM on November 12, 2010


Response by poster: To salvia: Thanks. I am trying to get realistic about the power of influence. But you're right; I shouldn't have to convince her to stay. It's too much.
posted by solidus at 3:41 PM on November 12, 2010


Her boss is a creeper-- but, having dated creepers myself as a younger and dumber Fairytale, I can attest that your girlfriend needs to screw her head on a lot tighter before she contemplates marriage.

You? Probably just need to work on the difference between "situations I put a lot of time into" and "situations that are worth my time." Mr. F had that as a younger and dumber man.

We've both done better since, if it's any consolation, and our marriage is pretty amazingly placid. You, too, can get smarter and find a much more relaxing longterm commitment.

Just, probably not with this woman.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 5:36 PM on November 12, 2010 [3 favorites]


Wow. I've been looking at this for two days thinking about how to reply, and I can't really find a way that encapsulates everything I wish I could say to you. So alright, this will get long and rambly, let it.

Hi. I'm you. Only differences are that I actually did marry her, that she actually did cheat on me, and that I'm about 3 months ahead of you.

Rather than tell you to break it off with her, I'm going to tell you where I am, which I'm 99% sure is where you're going (I leave 1% off because it's impossible to ever completely know or guess another person's situation). Your relationship is doomed, and it will die one way or another. It's up to you how it ends.

I do a pretty good job of keeping a lid on this, but I'm pissed off. I mean I'm an epic little ball of bitterness and fury the likes of which would do misogynists the world over proud. I poured my heart out for that bit...bit...bitterness-inducing woman and got humiliated time and time and time again. You have no idea (but actually you have a very good idea) how many times I begged her not to leave me, to participate in the relationship, if she really had faith we could go on. Each time the answer was a grunt, if there was an answer at all.

The details are trivial, but they track closely to yours. I had an emotional affair because I was "fed up in our relationship but knew I didn't want to call things off. I just wanted our relationship to improve. At the heart of the matter was the fact I felt I was making tremendous sacrifices for our relationship to remain together, while also molding my life with and around her, and I didn't feel like she adequately reciprocated. Many of my problems with her stemmed from that." And then things tracked pretty closely to your story until the first ultimatum, which I waited for, and then she came back and it was worse, I tried harder and she withdrew further, and then she cheated again, and then another ultimatum. For the second ultimatum, I didn't wait, I told her, "I'm not waiting around for your ultimatum, and I'm not moving out, and I'm not leaving you, you idiot. You need help, and I'm making sure your friends and parents know that you do. You need to stop cheating and start responding to me, because you're losing it." I did so, and she responded by smashing things and chasing me with a speaker stand. Yes, after that, I did leave.

You're on the cusp of that second phase. You're already taking pills for what would make anyone depressed, you're already doing 95% of the emotional lifting, and soon, if it hasn't happened already, you'll be giddy when she agrees to talk about this stuff with you...following that is a phase where you're happy if she's just home.

You are better than that. You can and are holding this thing together. When it came time to admit your own mistake and sacrifice, you did. When she calls you on your issues, you admit and deal. When it comes time to forgive her, you do! You are doing your part. Her? What does she do? Where is she in this?

She won't commit to you, she won't break up with you, she won't commit to her boss, and she won't cut him off. Do you see a pattern here? She has no spine. She expends all her emotional energy defending and exploring her options. She is, for some reason, incapable of and unwilling to engage in commitment right now.

"You know, I felt bad when I wrote the original question, but I was not trying to make it seem like I wasn't taking responsibility for what I've done here. In fact, I mentioned my prior indiscretion for just that reason; I am to blame for much of this mess. I just thought it was unconventional that, if a person messes up in their relationship, and decides to bail instead of do what it takes to get over it and move the relationship forward, why would they? I've asked her and I get no real clear answer. What is it indicative of? And if she changes her mind, or I can convince her that we should keep working, and that's it's worth saving, should we continue?

....

I just don't understand where it seems I'm dodging responsibility and want to live in a "magic" world. ???

I probably should have wrote that instead of the above. But I feel like, in now way, am I dodging responsibility."

No, see, you aren't. You never were. I don't even think your "indiscretion" was trying to dodge responsibility. I think you were always trying to hold up your end. And I think you have done so marvelously.

But the bitch of it is that you get no payback. You'll be lucky if you get understanding. A relationship is a very intimate world, and nobody else but her can really understand the dynamics of your own, and she checked out. The rest of us? Well, we've had similar experiences, some of us, but no, we can't understand it. So you have to bear this alone. After the break finally comes, you're faced with the knowledge of all you've tried, all you've sacrificed, all you've forgiven and done wrong and not made atonements for, and you really can't share it with anyone else. The brunt of all the wrongs done to you, and all the guilt you carry over things you did wrong that went unforgiven, are going to smack you like a ton of bricks, and it's going to hurt. Grief, anger, resentment, sadness, and loneliness are part of the package.

I, for one, get up in the morning and survive. I go about my rituals and make myself very, very busy. The fact that I had to move, and a new job with a lot of travel, and visiting my family after 7 years apart helped a lot. Oh, and yeah, I've been dating, which...just having someone of the opposite sex be nice to me and tell me I'm worth something, that I'm fun and seem reliable and nice, does a lot for me. But after the initial shock, where I congratulated myself for simply getting through the day, all that busyness is showing me that really, no, I can handle most things. Again and again during the day I tell myself, this thing I just did, I can handle this, and this next thing I'm going to do, I'm going to handle that...and it's getting to the point where I'm getting to tell myself that about the opposite sex. I can make this or that woman happy, if even just for a moment, a day, a week...and this girl I really like actually looks forward to seeing me. So okay, my old world collapsed, but this wider one out here is full of some pretty nice stuff!

In the lulls though, I slip back and I think about what happened, and I hate myself. I hate her. How could she do that to me? How could she ask me for so much and give me nothing? How did I fall for it? Yeah, I know. I loved her, she loved me, and it didn't work. Love is hard, win some lose some. Lotta consolation that is, huh? Well, she did it because she was just not ready for a relationship. I don't know about yours, but mine couldn't even commit to a job, let alone a man. Despite how wonderful her personality might be (which I can dwell on for about 2 seconds before I start missing her), she was just...not ready. I was in terms of commitment, but I guess I wasn't really ready in terms of knowing how to protect my own dignity.

And then I think, ew, how dramatic am I? I get in these situations because I'm a drama addict who doesn't know when to say no, can't read other people, doesn't understand love at all... I do that for just a few seconds, then I stop myself and say: "Look, saysthis, you tried as hard as anyone could have. You are miles ahead of her, and all the other people who can't get their love lives straight, because you tried so hard other people don't even have any concept, you got your time in with someone as amazing as she was to you at first, and you survived the breakup. You got the girl (for awhile), you played the hero, and you came out alive. And someone like you deserves a share or two of dignity. So give that to yourself, calm down, and continue to be awesome."

And then I continue to be awesome. That, I think, is your road out. You will be angry, you will be sad, you will be lonely. You will lose confidence in yourself and wonder how you could ever be such a dupe, and now such a hateful, resentful person. And in time you'll realize that you could do that because those are natural reactions to what you went through with her, that you didn't crack and walk away when the pressure was on, and you don't have to do that anymore. She checked out; you didn't. Now you know you're awesome. You've been tested, and you passed. That realization was enough to help me through the worst. I hope it helps you.
posted by saysthis at 6:22 PM on November 14, 2010 [6 favorites]


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