Trying to finally get over distrust of women--Stood up.
November 3, 2010 7:34 PM Subscribe
I am tremendously distrustful of women. My therapist has encouraged me to try again. I got stood up. I'm not sure what to do.
I had a very difficult childhood. My mother had borderline personality disorder. She would be loving one moment and physically and mentally abusive the next. Mostly she threatened to kill herself over and over again. My father did nothing to protect me and was afraid of my mother. She eventually cheated on him and they got divorced, and he only did it when he was threatened, not when me and my brother were abused.
I have worked for 5 years to get better through therapy, with a number of therapists. I have had three real love affairs, all ending in infidelity and most characterized by less than nice treatment by the women I was with (they all begged to get back when I broke up, though).
So I put myself out there. I am good at flirting and met a woman at a neighborhood bar. She really was interested, maybe too interested. I am not sure, I do not trust anyone who appears interested in me. A friend at the bar described her as "throwing herself at me."
Last week I asked her out on short notice (1 day). She called back, took a rain check and said she "really wanted" to go out. This week we had penciled in yesterday (I was the penciller inner, so to speak). I called her yesterday and something had come up and she wanted to text me later to see what would happen after a business meeting. I instead suggested postponing until today. I do not like being strung out and I wanted to avoid that. She said "is that OK?" and I said yes. To make sure I was available today, she said she'd text me. Last night I saw her at another bar much later and she seemed very enthused about going out today.
Today she did not text. I showed up and waited 45 minutes. I texted her after 30, saying "What's up?" I went home. On the way home, I saw that she had called. She left no message but then texted immediately that she was "so sorry" and that she had gone on a day trip and left her phone at home and just got home and that I should ". . . call whenever." On advice of a friend I texted back saying "happens all the time, hope you had a good day, let me know of a better time."
I have not heard back. I was extremely upset when this happened, although she does not know this. I am afraid to try again with her and I am very hurt because I have tried so hard and then to have this happen the first time I put myself out there--it really, really strikes home and hits the very buttons I don't want hit. I don't think I can try again with her. How do I get over this? What do I do if she calls back? How do I learn to trust. I am afraid if I let her go out with me I will get burned and be in a worse place. I've never been stood up before.
I had a very difficult childhood. My mother had borderline personality disorder. She would be loving one moment and physically and mentally abusive the next. Mostly she threatened to kill herself over and over again. My father did nothing to protect me and was afraid of my mother. She eventually cheated on him and they got divorced, and he only did it when he was threatened, not when me and my brother were abused.
I have worked for 5 years to get better through therapy, with a number of therapists. I have had three real love affairs, all ending in infidelity and most characterized by less than nice treatment by the women I was with (they all begged to get back when I broke up, though).
So I put myself out there. I am good at flirting and met a woman at a neighborhood bar. She really was interested, maybe too interested. I am not sure, I do not trust anyone who appears interested in me. A friend at the bar described her as "throwing herself at me."
Last week I asked her out on short notice (1 day). She called back, took a rain check and said she "really wanted" to go out. This week we had penciled in yesterday (I was the penciller inner, so to speak). I called her yesterday and something had come up and she wanted to text me later to see what would happen after a business meeting. I instead suggested postponing until today. I do not like being strung out and I wanted to avoid that. She said "is that OK?" and I said yes. To make sure I was available today, she said she'd text me. Last night I saw her at another bar much later and she seemed very enthused about going out today.
Today she did not text. I showed up and waited 45 minutes. I texted her after 30, saying "What's up?" I went home. On the way home, I saw that she had called. She left no message but then texted immediately that she was "so sorry" and that she had gone on a day trip and left her phone at home and just got home and that I should ". . . call whenever." On advice of a friend I texted back saying "happens all the time, hope you had a good day, let me know of a better time."
I have not heard back. I was extremely upset when this happened, although she does not know this. I am afraid to try again with her and I am very hurt because I have tried so hard and then to have this happen the first time I put myself out there--it really, really strikes home and hits the very buttons I don't want hit. I don't think I can try again with her. How do I get over this? What do I do if she calls back? How do I learn to trust. I am afraid if I let her go out with me I will get burned and be in a worse place. I've never been stood up before.
From all the postponements and rescheduling you describe, it sounds like this could still go forward, except for a couple of logistical problems. My advice would be to shake it off and try again next weekend. It sounds like you could still have fun, so long as you don't let the scheduling issues get in your head.
posted by Gilbert at 7:53 PM on November 3, 2010
posted by Gilbert at 7:53 PM on November 3, 2010
I'm sorry that this happened to you.
Some people just do this. They drive me crazy too, and I don't have the past that you have. That is to say: your feelings are valid, and I don't think it's an overreaction.
I would also encourage you to be honest (while being considerate), especially in the early stages of a potential relationship. You could say something like, "I know I said it was OK, and I do like you. However, in reflecting on what happened, I have come to recognize that I really need consistency and trustworthiness in a partner, and behavior that indicates otherwise is a dealbreaker for me." That's a totally OK boundary to set for yourself.
posted by emilyd22222 at 7:55 PM on November 3, 2010 [8 favorites]
Some people just do this. They drive me crazy too, and I don't have the past that you have. That is to say: your feelings are valid, and I don't think it's an overreaction.
I would also encourage you to be honest (while being considerate), especially in the early stages of a potential relationship. You could say something like, "I know I said it was OK, and I do like you. However, in reflecting on what happened, I have come to recognize that I really need consistency and trustworthiness in a partner, and behavior that indicates otherwise is a dealbreaker for me." That's a totally OK boundary to set for yourself.
posted by emilyd22222 at 7:55 PM on November 3, 2010 [8 favorites]
This is just one experience in a lifetime. It is no reason to give up completely. As many people have advised others on here about dating advice, you just have to keep trying. The more you put yourself out there, the more likely you are to have some good encounters. Not every person you meet is going to be perfect for you (nor should they be) and not every date is going to happen without a hitch.
And for what it's worth, I've never had a bar encounter result in a very good relationship. Bars are great places to have random conversation and/or to flirt, but usually it shouldn't go further than that.
posted by joan_holloway at 7:55 PM on November 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
And for what it's worth, I've never had a bar encounter result in a very good relationship. Bars are great places to have random conversation and/or to flirt, but usually it shouldn't go further than that.
posted by joan_holloway at 7:55 PM on November 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
I don't think it's clear to me exactly where (or why) you "showed up" and waited for 45 minutes. I think if you guys set up a date but she forgot her phone and blah blah blah, that's actually pretty silly. I mean shit, I would be like "whatever" - I think in the world of casual dating that counts as a major error on her part.
As for the advice your friend gave you. When a girl says "call whenever" and you reply with a text, of the "happens all the time" sort, well, in my opinion you're giving her a signal that you've cooled off tremendously. I don't know how to explain things better, I've had casual dates unravel in quite a similar fashion. She's probably not calling because she thinks you're a little pissed, and that kind of ruins the magic of it all.
As far as connecting this with your childhood. Dating is full of failures. Sometimes small ones, sometimes big ones. Sometimes you can recover, sometimes you can't. If you don't take the negative things that happen too seriously, you open yourself up to more possibilities. That's just a fact. For you, maybe giving this girl a second chance might be healthier than crashing down on her for screwing up the first date. Maybe you could set up the date this time, give her a call, take a risk. Maybe it still doesn't work out. See if it really hurts as bad as you think. Just treat it as collecting information, collecting experiences. None of this speaks to your value as a person.
posted by phaedon at 7:56 PM on November 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
As for the advice your friend gave you. When a girl says "call whenever" and you reply with a text, of the "happens all the time" sort, well, in my opinion you're giving her a signal that you've cooled off tremendously. I don't know how to explain things better, I've had casual dates unravel in quite a similar fashion. She's probably not calling because she thinks you're a little pissed, and that kind of ruins the magic of it all.
As far as connecting this with your childhood. Dating is full of failures. Sometimes small ones, sometimes big ones. Sometimes you can recover, sometimes you can't. If you don't take the negative things that happen too seriously, you open yourself up to more possibilities. That's just a fact. For you, maybe giving this girl a second chance might be healthier than crashing down on her for screwing up the first date. Maybe you could set up the date this time, give her a call, take a risk. Maybe it still doesn't work out. See if it really hurts as bad as you think. Just treat it as collecting information, collecting experiences. None of this speaks to your value as a person.
posted by phaedon at 7:56 PM on November 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
It's so hard when things push your buttons. Logically, you understand that men stand up women (and men, for that matter) all the fucking time, but logic doesn't necessarily work on those old wounds.
Keep working on it. It will get easier.
posted by Sidhedevil at 8:11 PM on November 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
Keep working on it. It will get easier.
posted by Sidhedevil at 8:11 PM on November 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
Do you have female friends? That is, do you have women in your life with whom you enjoy spending time, but with whom you are not trying to form romantic relationships? Because what I'm getting from your question is a sense that you view women as a discrete class in which the characteristics of one can allow you to draw meaningful conclusions about the characteristics of the rest. And that's not true.
Your mother was terrible to you. But the fact that she has two X chromosomes doesn't mean that her behavior is representative of the behavior of other women. Some women cheat on their boyfriends and some do not, just as some men cheat and others don't. Some women are flaky and forget to call when they're going to break a date. Some are punctual and organized and thoughtful and would never dream of standing someone up. For all of the things you find untrustworthy, there are some people who do those things and some people who do not, and some of the people in each category are women.
I think that you probably should take a break from dating for a while. It sounds as though, at least right now, it's more stressful than enjoyable for you. But I also think that you should make an effort to cultivate more friendships with people who happen to be women. Hang out with them. Watch movies and drink and go bowling and do whatever it is you enjoy doing with these people whose gender is different from yours. I think it will help, and over time, you'll start to break down these rigid ideas you have about women as a monolithic group. Then, dating will be much less scary and awful for you.
posted by decathecting at 8:18 PM on November 3, 2010 [20 favorites]
Your mother was terrible to you. But the fact that she has two X chromosomes doesn't mean that her behavior is representative of the behavior of other women. Some women cheat on their boyfriends and some do not, just as some men cheat and others don't. Some women are flaky and forget to call when they're going to break a date. Some are punctual and organized and thoughtful and would never dream of standing someone up. For all of the things you find untrustworthy, there are some people who do those things and some people who do not, and some of the people in each category are women.
I think that you probably should take a break from dating for a while. It sounds as though, at least right now, it's more stressful than enjoyable for you. But I also think that you should make an effort to cultivate more friendships with people who happen to be women. Hang out with them. Watch movies and drink and go bowling and do whatever it is you enjoy doing with these people whose gender is different from yours. I think it will help, and over time, you'll start to break down these rigid ideas you have about women as a monolithic group. Then, dating will be much less scary and awful for you.
posted by decathecting at 8:18 PM on November 3, 2010 [20 favorites]
Speaking as a woman and also as a child of a Borderline parent, standing people up is not a trait inherent in all women. It is, however, something rude that rude people sometimes do. Your post isn't clear, though - did you have concrete plans to meet this woman somewhere? You simply say she never texted you. Then she said she was on a day trip and didn't bring her phone, which sounds like she wasn't expecting to meet you. That she bothered to call you back and explain sounds like she doesn't want to lose your interest while your response could also communicate to her that she already has. If your post here is this unclear, I wonder if there was also confusion for her?
If she calls back and wants to set up a specific time, just go meet her. If she doesn't or she keeps making excuses, tell her politely that you're moving on. And then actually move on.
This is what dating is like for everyone. Look at it this way: it weeds out the unreliable flakes more efficiently. It's unpleasant for your ego, yes, but you just have to brush it off and try again.
As for not being able to trust people - nobody really trusts anyone they've just met. Trust doesn't come until you've really gotten to know a person. It's okay to be skeptical as long as you're willing to take the risk anyway.
posted by katillathehun at 8:24 PM on November 3, 2010 [8 favorites]
If she calls back and wants to set up a specific time, just go meet her. If she doesn't or she keeps making excuses, tell her politely that you're moving on. And then actually move on.
This is what dating is like for everyone. Look at it this way: it weeds out the unreliable flakes more efficiently. It's unpleasant for your ego, yes, but you just have to brush it off and try again.
As for not being able to trust people - nobody really trusts anyone they've just met. Trust doesn't come until you've really gotten to know a person. It's okay to be skeptical as long as you're willing to take the risk anyway.
posted by katillathehun at 8:24 PM on November 3, 2010 [8 favorites]
Honestly? This chick sounds kinda flaky as a person and I wouldn't take it too seriously. If she set a date with you, and then "was on a day trip" that day, well, that's just kinda shitty behavior and it seriously, honestly, stranger to stranger, isn't you, it's her. Try again with another cute neighborhood bar chick.
You'll get there. Especially if you don't expect everything from now on to be a marvelous love affair, but treat every relationship and every date as an opportunity to grow and learn. And then, one day, love will be staring you in the face, going, "Hello? It's time you noticed me!" And you'll be ready.
posted by Night_owl at 8:44 PM on November 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
You'll get there. Especially if you don't expect everything from now on to be a marvelous love affair, but treat every relationship and every date as an opportunity to grow and learn. And then, one day, love will be staring you in the face, going, "Hello? It's time you noticed me!" And you'll be ready.
posted by Night_owl at 8:44 PM on November 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
they all begged to get back when I broke up, though
She really was interested, maybe too interested... A friend at the bar described her as "throwing herself at me."
Last week I asked her out on short notice (1 day)
I was the penciller inner
I am afraid to try again with her and I am very hurt because I have tried so hard
Dude, you are unhealthily preoccupied with minute power dynamics. It's completely understandable given your childhood and rocky love life, but I'll leave your therapist to discuss those implications. As it stands, do you see how your own description of this incident reads? You're constantly putting yourself out there a little bit, then pulling back, always calculating how much effort you are making vs. how much effort you could be making. I'm not saying you should do all the work (though seriously, this reads like a pretty normal mishap in the dating world, and doesn't sound much like getting stood up and suffering from a scheduling conflict) but you need to stop endlessly measuring who's got the upper hand.
Easier said than done, as always, but such is life.
posted by zoomorphic at 8:56 PM on November 3, 2010 [24 favorites]
She really was interested, maybe too interested... A friend at the bar described her as "throwing herself at me."
Last week I asked her out on short notice (1 day)
I was the penciller inner
I am afraid to try again with her and I am very hurt because I have tried so hard
Dude, you are unhealthily preoccupied with minute power dynamics. It's completely understandable given your childhood and rocky love life, but I'll leave your therapist to discuss those implications. As it stands, do you see how your own description of this incident reads? You're constantly putting yourself out there a little bit, then pulling back, always calculating how much effort you are making vs. how much effort you could be making. I'm not saying you should do all the work (though seriously, this reads like a pretty normal mishap in the dating world, and doesn't sound much like getting stood up and suffering from a scheduling conflict) but you need to stop endlessly measuring who's got the upper hand.
Easier said than done, as always, but such is life.
posted by zoomorphic at 8:56 PM on November 3, 2010 [24 favorites]
Mod note: This is a followup from the asker.
I don't think it's clear to me exactly where (or why) you "showed up" and waited for 45 minutes. I think if you guys set up a date but she forgot her phone and blah blah blah, that's actually pretty silly.posted by cortex (staff) at 9:03 PM on November 3, 2010
We had plans. I was supposed to meet her at a particular bar at X time, as a reschedule for yesterday. She wasn't there when she said she would be.
Do you have female friends? That is, do you have women in your life with whom you enjoy spending time, but with whom you are not trying to form romantic relationships? Because what I'm getting from your question is a sense that you view women as a discrete class in which the characteristics of one can allow you to draw meaningful conclusions about the characteristics of the rest. And that's not true.. . .I think that you probably should take a break from dating for a while. It sounds as though, at least right now, it's more stressful than enjoyable for you. But I also think that you should make an effort to cultivate more friendships with people who happen to be women. Hang out with them. Watch movies and drink and go bowling and do whatever it is you enjoy doing with these people whose gender is different from yours.
I have been lucky enough to have many close female friends, one's that I am not trying to be involved with. I do all of those things with them. I completely understand your comments intellectually and I know full well on a rational level that not all women are not like that. However, it is like the hot stove effect--The minute I'm in a romantic situation with women, a powerful, irrational voice based in the terrible experiences of my past arises and huge feelings of doubt overtake me. They are very powerful--it is like wanting something and fearing something and hating it at the same time. I had been working with these feelings, many of which involved fears that this woman would stand me up. I did a lot of CBT on them and I was feeling pretty good that these feelings were irrational projections of my past. When they came true, it really hit me hard.
As for quitting dating, this is what I want to do nearly permanently. I've been ok with not doing this. But my therapist says I should do it and this was the first time it seemed like it had a chance (I had two recent disappointments in the last 3 weeks too). I am thinking I would like to stop dating at all. Does this sound crazy?
notsnot: Frankly, you merely got stood up by some chick at a neighborhood bar. So what? The moment you stop taking it seriously is the moment they stop standing you up.That is terrible advice! The poster is not to blame for being stood up, and this idiotic notion that those of us who aren't Jesus McBuddha and infinitely wise sages of detachment are somehow the cause of being mistreated, stood up, or seen as undesirable is the kind of thing rude bastards or sociopaths say: he deserves mistreatment because he cares, because he feels pain! Crazy, and given the OPs past rather insensitive of you.
For the poster: it sounds like you don't have trouble meeting people, which is HUGE. You have the enviable situation where you can let her make amends (if she actually stood you up, and it wasn't a misunderstanding), and if she doesn't you move on with a terse "I need reliable" like emilyd22222 says above, and move on.
There's a line from a Cherry Poppin' Daddies song I often recall: "the way to get over someone is to get under someone else". Give her another chance, but since you're not committed you should start flirting with new people now- it will give you the strength to be level-headed about this woman if she's not the only option in play.
posted by hincandenza at 9:10 PM on November 3, 2010 [7 favorites]
I don't think stopping dating sounds crazy, but I've never been in to the 'dating strangers' thing anyway; it might do you better to date someone who is pre-vetted in some way either because you've spent time together in a non-romantic context (met through a weekly poker game or the like) or because you have a friend who can speak to her reliability and steadfastness.
Something to consider (perhaps to discuss with your therapist) is whether you're attracting / attracted to women who tend to be more 'exciting', high-maintenance, or into power games (and who then lose interest when the relationship is out of the 'high-tension flirtation' phase).
posted by Lady Li at 9:15 PM on November 3, 2010 [3 favorites]
Something to consider (perhaps to discuss with your therapist) is whether you're attracting / attracted to women who tend to be more 'exciting', high-maintenance, or into power games (and who then lose interest when the relationship is out of the 'high-tension flirtation' phase).
posted by Lady Li at 9:15 PM on November 3, 2010 [3 favorites]
You can move on from this by becoming a person who confirms your plans the day of. This is perfectly OK to be a dealbreaker for you, the lack of response when confirming. Maybe it would also work better if you used online dating or something low-key that has a supply of women who also don't like flakes (there are many of you there).
posted by rhizome at 9:21 PM on November 3, 2010
posted by rhizome at 9:21 PM on November 3, 2010
It's important to keep in mind that you weren't stood up by WOMEN, but by one particular woman. And the more you think about WOMEN, and reinforce the notion that there's such a thing as WOMEN, the harder it will be for any woman to date you.
I'm a woman. Sometimes I flake out on people. I mean, I try not to, and I try to apologize and make up for it when I do- but once in a while it happens, because I forget or make a mistake or something else comes up. But listen, it never, ever, ever happens because I'm a woman. I'm just a person and one of my faults is that sometimes I misread my day planner or get into a blue mood and don't want to go out or whatever. But I promise, it's not ever because of my sex.
If I met a guy who thought, even unconsciously, that my failings were because I belonged to an untrustworthy group called WOMEN, I probably would not feel very comfortable dating that guy. I'm an individual, not a member of WOMEN.
I suspect that you know this intellectually, but it sounds to me you need to work on internalizing it. Try really hard to think of these people as individuals. John is flaky sometimes. So is Mary. Lisa is really conscientious, though! Keep looking for the Lisas.
Since being stood up is a specific, major concern for you, maybe you could make a practice of sending a text a few hours before the date, asking "Hey, still good for later? Looking forward to seeing you!" or something similar. If you don't hear back an hour before you're meant to meet her, call. If she doesn't answer the text and the phone call, you just assume something came up for her and don't go on the date at all. With this methodology, you'll probably never be stood up again. Good luck!
posted by pseudostrabismus at 9:59 PM on November 3, 2010 [14 favorites]
I'm a woman. Sometimes I flake out on people. I mean, I try not to, and I try to apologize and make up for it when I do- but once in a while it happens, because I forget or make a mistake or something else comes up. But listen, it never, ever, ever happens because I'm a woman. I'm just a person and one of my faults is that sometimes I misread my day planner or get into a blue mood and don't want to go out or whatever. But I promise, it's not ever because of my sex.
If I met a guy who thought, even unconsciously, that my failings were because I belonged to an untrustworthy group called WOMEN, I probably would not feel very comfortable dating that guy. I'm an individual, not a member of WOMEN.
I suspect that you know this intellectually, but it sounds to me you need to work on internalizing it. Try really hard to think of these people as individuals. John is flaky sometimes. So is Mary. Lisa is really conscientious, though! Keep looking for the Lisas.
Since being stood up is a specific, major concern for you, maybe you could make a practice of sending a text a few hours before the date, asking "Hey, still good for later? Looking forward to seeing you!" or something similar. If you don't hear back an hour before you're meant to meet her, call. If she doesn't answer the text and the phone call, you just assume something came up for her and don't go on the date at all. With this methodology, you'll probably never be stood up again. Good luck!
posted by pseudostrabismus at 9:59 PM on November 3, 2010 [14 favorites]
Hey, did you write to Cary Tennis this week? Either that, or someone else has similar issues you might be interested in reading about.
You don't HAVE to date if you don't want to date. Dating sucks anyway, but it especially sucks if you are doing it out of obligation or "I SHOULD be dating." If you feel too crushed after stupid shit happens, then hey, maybe you're not ready. (Hell, my shrink tells me I should date, but I don't wanna, so I don't.) If you're cool with the consequences of never dating again, i.e. no sex/love until you die, then that's what you wanna do. If that isn't the case though, you do have to run the risk of dating weirdos, crazies, and flakes. Sigh. Sad but true. You have to go through a lot of bad eggs to find a good one and all that. At least you know your female friends are sane, so you've got that.
Just wondering: did it ever come out during therapy as to why you associate chicks you've dated with your mother, but not anyone else?
As to Ms. Flake:
(a) don't contact her again, let HER contact YOU if she actually wants to go out
(b) if she flakes again, don't bother with her again. Though telling her you don't like being yo-yo'd is also quite acceptable at this point too.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:06 PM on November 3, 2010
You don't HAVE to date if you don't want to date. Dating sucks anyway, but it especially sucks if you are doing it out of obligation or "I SHOULD be dating." If you feel too crushed after stupid shit happens, then hey, maybe you're not ready. (Hell, my shrink tells me I should date, but I don't wanna, so I don't.) If you're cool with the consequences of never dating again, i.e. no sex/love until you die, then that's what you wanna do. If that isn't the case though, you do have to run the risk of dating weirdos, crazies, and flakes. Sigh. Sad but true. You have to go through a lot of bad eggs to find a good one and all that. At least you know your female friends are sane, so you've got that.
Just wondering: did it ever come out during therapy as to why you associate chicks you've dated with your mother, but not anyone else?
As to Ms. Flake:
(a) don't contact her again, let HER contact YOU if she actually wants to go out
(b) if she flakes again, don't bother with her again. Though telling her you don't like being yo-yo'd is also quite acceptable at this point too.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:06 PM on November 3, 2010
Do you trust your female friends? Is it just possible romantic interests that you don't trust? If you don't trust your female friends either, I have absolutely no advice, other than keep talking to your therapist.
If it's just possible romantic interests, I'd start by reminding myself that they're people, too. You can't start off thinking they're untrustworthy because they show an interest in you, because that will get you nowhere. They are always eventually going to do something to let you down and then you'll feel vindicated for your mistrust. View them as a complete blank slate, trust-wise.
Then I'd take note of which things I was specifically afraid of happening, and plan for how I would feel and what I would do if it did. I am unfamiliar with CBT, so you may already be doing that. I'm suggesting it because planning for the worst helps me in almost all areas of life, because then I don't have to stress about it - I have a plan!
Like in this case, I would have had a backup plan if this woman didn't show up. You *hope* that she'll show up, but if it doesn't work out, hey, there's a new movie around the corner you wanted to check out. If you can treat disappointing instances as relatively minor events, then you won't be agonizing over them after the fact and using them to further extrapolate traits for an entire gender.
But I would still probably stay away from bars if you're looking for the reliable, trustworthy women. Not that reliable women don't go to bars, but "reliable" is not always what women go to bars looking for. Plus, alcohol will lower the reliability and trustworthiness of even the best. Do any of your female friends have friends that would be willing to go out and have coffee or something nonstressful with you? Just to get back in the swing of things and get used to dates, um, bringing their phones and showing up places at times and things like that. I would not try to remake plans with this one woman - not because I think what she did was really all that bad, but because you have so much mental baggage associated with her now that it will probably be awful and stressful and not help you out much.
posted by wending my way at 10:12 PM on November 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
If it's just possible romantic interests, I'd start by reminding myself that they're people, too. You can't start off thinking they're untrustworthy because they show an interest in you, because that will get you nowhere. They are always eventually going to do something to let you down and then you'll feel vindicated for your mistrust. View them as a complete blank slate, trust-wise.
Then I'd take note of which things I was specifically afraid of happening, and plan for how I would feel and what I would do if it did. I am unfamiliar with CBT, so you may already be doing that. I'm suggesting it because planning for the worst helps me in almost all areas of life, because then I don't have to stress about it - I have a plan!
Like in this case, I would have had a backup plan if this woman didn't show up. You *hope* that she'll show up, but if it doesn't work out, hey, there's a new movie around the corner you wanted to check out. If you can treat disappointing instances as relatively minor events, then you won't be agonizing over them after the fact and using them to further extrapolate traits for an entire gender.
But I would still probably stay away from bars if you're looking for the reliable, trustworthy women. Not that reliable women don't go to bars, but "reliable" is not always what women go to bars looking for. Plus, alcohol will lower the reliability and trustworthiness of even the best. Do any of your female friends have friends that would be willing to go out and have coffee or something nonstressful with you? Just to get back in the swing of things and get used to dates, um, bringing their phones and showing up places at times and things like that. I would not try to remake plans with this one woman - not because I think what she did was really all that bad, but because you have so much mental baggage associated with her now that it will probably be awful and stressful and not help you out much.
posted by wending my way at 10:12 PM on November 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
> I think that you probably should take a break from dating for a while.
I disagree. Taking a break from dating after a disappointment like this would just reinforce his instinctive generalization that Dating=Danger and Women Cannot Be Trusted. Moreover, after he "returned" to dating, his impulse to overreact to perceived slights would be strengthened. Essentially, he'd be reinforcing the Panic Circuit in his head.
What's notable is that the OP states that he's never been stood up before.
That's rather remarkable.
This, then, is something like an account of, as OP writes, a child touching a hot stove... for the first time.
So while he's seeing this in terms of early childhood trauma, it also makes sense to view it in terms of early courtship learning: Most people first get stood up in their teens or early twenties, and OP is so sought-after, or so controlled in his pursuits, or both, that he's only now experiencing it.
All of which makes me think, "Hey, OP, what would it mean if your reaction was not an out-of-control traumatic residue... but just a painful experience, of the kind lots of 15-year olds and 22-year olds have... that, after the first time around, seems like a much smaller deal?
What if, when it comes to being stood up, everyone has a first time?
What if all the therapeutic work you've done has been more successful than you realize, and you're already noticing that you're handling this much better than you might have when you were younger... so you can now begin to ask yourself what you want to happen next?
As for the particulars of this incident:
I'd say to directly and clearly offer her another date.
If that doesn't work out, write her off and meet someone new.
You might even begin to feel some ironic gratitude, because, in a roundabout way, Ms. Forgetful ushered you out of the childhood world of What If I Get Stood Up and into the adult world of So That's What That's Like Oh Well I'll Live."
posted by darth_tedious at 11:48 PM on November 3, 2010 [3 favorites]
I disagree. Taking a break from dating after a disappointment like this would just reinforce his instinctive generalization that Dating=Danger and Women Cannot Be Trusted. Moreover, after he "returned" to dating, his impulse to overreact to perceived slights would be strengthened. Essentially, he'd be reinforcing the Panic Circuit in his head.
What's notable is that the OP states that he's never been stood up before.
That's rather remarkable.
This, then, is something like an account of, as OP writes, a child touching a hot stove... for the first time.
So while he's seeing this in terms of early childhood trauma, it also makes sense to view it in terms of early courtship learning: Most people first get stood up in their teens or early twenties, and OP is so sought-after, or so controlled in his pursuits, or both, that he's only now experiencing it.
All of which makes me think, "Hey, OP, what would it mean if your reaction was not an out-of-control traumatic residue... but just a painful experience, of the kind lots of 15-year olds and 22-year olds have... that, after the first time around, seems like a much smaller deal?
What if, when it comes to being stood up, everyone has a first time?
What if all the therapeutic work you've done has been more successful than you realize, and you're already noticing that you're handling this much better than you might have when you were younger... so you can now begin to ask yourself what you want to happen next?
As for the particulars of this incident:
I'd say to directly and clearly offer her another date.
If that doesn't work out, write her off and meet someone new.
You might even begin to feel some ironic gratitude, because, in a roundabout way, Ms. Forgetful ushered you out of the childhood world of What If I Get Stood Up and into the adult world of So That's What That's Like Oh Well I'll Live."
posted by darth_tedious at 11:48 PM on November 3, 2010 [3 favorites]
I don't have specific advice about the big picture question, but as far as this particular woman goes, I don't think it would be a good idea to pursue the connection. In fact I'd say avoid. I really do think she does want to go out with you, but she is flaky and undependable, and this is just not a great personality type to get hooked up with while trying to sort through important issues. At best, it will confuse things — as it already has — and at worst reinforce and support your fear and expectation that emotional involvement = danger.
I definitely agree that it's important for you to date, but I don't agree that it's important to date above all other considerations — in other words, don't date her just because you're supposed to date and she's interested, especially now that she's provided a preview of what you can expect. She may be perfectly nice, but she's sloppy about how she handles her commitments (at the very least), and that's not something you need to be dealing with. Your mother (among other things) was unpredictable and a constant source of mixed signals, and so far this woman is unpredictable and a source of mixed signals (and you're not even "dating" her yet!); even if everything else is wonderful about her, that will never be a safe or comfortable feeling for you. And there are so many women who don't have these sorts of behavior patterns that there's no need for you to swim in those waters!
posted by taz at 1:33 AM on November 4, 2010
I definitely agree that it's important for you to date, but I don't agree that it's important to date above all other considerations — in other words, don't date her just because you're supposed to date and she's interested, especially now that she's provided a preview of what you can expect. She may be perfectly nice, but she's sloppy about how she handles her commitments (at the very least), and that's not something you need to be dealing with. Your mother (among other things) was unpredictable and a constant source of mixed signals, and so far this woman is unpredictable and a source of mixed signals (and you're not even "dating" her yet!); even if everything else is wonderful about her, that will never be a safe or comfortable feeling for you. And there are so many women who don't have these sorts of behavior patterns that there's no need for you to swim in those waters!
posted by taz at 1:33 AM on November 4, 2010
Well, I think the behaviour of this person, as you describe it, is inexcusably dickish. Saying she "...really wanted to go out", then saying she'd text and not texting, then calling and not leaving a message... there's no excuse for that, not if she "really wanted to go out". It's just damned inconsiderate and selfish. If I were on the receiving end of that I'd already have emailed to say "You know what? Forget it", or words to that effect.
However, don't take it so to heart. Some people are dicks, male and female alike. Plenty aren't. Just try not to relate every interaction with a woman to the bad experiences of your childhood. Those experiences were with one woman only - your mother. Then you had three relationships which ended badly. Relationships usually end badly in one way or another - the "bad" is why they end, right? Almost everybody has relationships go bad, and end. Take heart. What you describe - at least as far as your relationships are concerned, not your childhood abuse - sounds like the normal crap most of us go through before we meet someone we can make it work with. Be cool, if someone winds you up like this latest person has been doing just let 'em go wind someone else up. It's not worth angsting about someone you're not even in a relationship with yet.
posted by Decani at 2:40 AM on November 4, 2010
However, don't take it so to heart. Some people are dicks, male and female alike. Plenty aren't. Just try not to relate every interaction with a woman to the bad experiences of your childhood. Those experiences were with one woman only - your mother. Then you had three relationships which ended badly. Relationships usually end badly in one way or another - the "bad" is why they end, right? Almost everybody has relationships go bad, and end. Take heart. What you describe - at least as far as your relationships are concerned, not your childhood abuse - sounds like the normal crap most of us go through before we meet someone we can make it work with. Be cool, if someone winds you up like this latest person has been doing just let 'em go wind someone else up. It's not worth angsting about someone you're not even in a relationship with yet.
posted by Decani at 2:40 AM on November 4, 2010
Sometimes, we unwittingly draw the least supportive people into our personal sphere, particularly if those old, unsettled demons haven't been quite adequately 'exorcized' (for wont of a better term!).
We often do this unconsciously, which I am sure you are already aware of, but it may be worth thinking about in this respect. I completely sympathize with the way you feel about this, having suffered traumatic experiences in childhood myself (I am female, and the issues were not family related, but there are similarities regarding our experiences potentially causing issues of trust and confusion in later life), and yet I have to go along with the general consensus here to a large extent.
Perhaps consider the type of people you are attracted to, and what initially draws you towards them. Is it possible that your radar somehow senses their flakiness, therefore hurling you into a sort of prophetic-seeming disaster? As Taz mentions above, try not to attach yourself too readily to folks who might appear undependable whilst you are still sorting through issues - thus triggering negative feelings and reinforcing past fears. I too have found myself in similar situations throughout my life, although as I have grown older I have come to recognize the 'pattern' of what drew me to unfortunate people/situations - as if I was unconsciously trying to recreate old wounds.
The romantic part of me preferred to call this behavior a necessary catharsis.
The realistic part of me eventually came to accept that it was merely another form of self loathing, one that tried to justify itself by convincing me that I had no control over my own destiny.
In many instances we come to attract what we see in the proverbial mirror: worthless, unlucky? And we will attract what we think we deserve.
However, this may not be the case for you, and much of your fear could be born of a temporary run of bad luck alone, merely exacerbating the existing problems further.
I personally wouldn't be altogether pleased with the treatment you have endured - and my main advice would be to take some time out for now, spend that vital energy on yourself, your healing. Locate the true value of what you have to offer to the right person, and try to avoid allowing anyone into your life who doesn't value your self respect. Most of all, believe in your ability to give and receive that respect. Anyone worth your energy will follow suit.
posted by noella at 2:50 AM on November 4, 2010 [1 favorite]
We often do this unconsciously, which I am sure you are already aware of, but it may be worth thinking about in this respect. I completely sympathize with the way you feel about this, having suffered traumatic experiences in childhood myself (I am female, and the issues were not family related, but there are similarities regarding our experiences potentially causing issues of trust and confusion in later life), and yet I have to go along with the general consensus here to a large extent.
Perhaps consider the type of people you are attracted to, and what initially draws you towards them. Is it possible that your radar somehow senses their flakiness, therefore hurling you into a sort of prophetic-seeming disaster? As Taz mentions above, try not to attach yourself too readily to folks who might appear undependable whilst you are still sorting through issues - thus triggering negative feelings and reinforcing past fears. I too have found myself in similar situations throughout my life, although as I have grown older I have come to recognize the 'pattern' of what drew me to unfortunate people/situations - as if I was unconsciously trying to recreate old wounds.
The romantic part of me preferred to call this behavior a necessary catharsis.
The realistic part of me eventually came to accept that it was merely another form of self loathing, one that tried to justify itself by convincing me that I had no control over my own destiny.
In many instances we come to attract what we see in the proverbial mirror: worthless, unlucky? And we will attract what we think we deserve.
However, this may not be the case for you, and much of your fear could be born of a temporary run of bad luck alone, merely exacerbating the existing problems further.
I personally wouldn't be altogether pleased with the treatment you have endured - and my main advice would be to take some time out for now, spend that vital energy on yourself, your healing. Locate the true value of what you have to offer to the right person, and try to avoid allowing anyone into your life who doesn't value your self respect. Most of all, believe in your ability to give and receive that respect. Anyone worth your energy will follow suit.
posted by noella at 2:50 AM on November 4, 2010 [1 favorite]
How do I learn to trust.
IMO, trust is something that should be earned, not something that should be given. The way someone earns trust is by behaving in a trustworthy way over time. There's no way for this girl you met to have earned your trust, since you just met her. You haven't had a chance to see how she acts over time.
So if you need to be able to trust that someone will behave in a particular way, or you will feel really messed up, I think that person should be someone you know well, who. Not someone you just met.
If you want to get to know someone and build trust with them, start with little things to give yourself a chance to build the trust over time. Start with things that won't be as important to you as this, if the person doesn't come though.
I had been working with these feelings, many of which involved fears that this woman would stand me up. I did a lot of CBT on them and I was feeling pretty good that these feelings were irrational projections of my past. When they came true, it really hit me hard.
I think this only works when something IS an irrational projection. But people standing other people up is not an irrational projection. It's something that is very common and people do it all the time, especially when it comes to dating. In some places I've lived *coughpacificnorthwestcough* it seems like people flake out more than they actually end up meeting up with each other.
You might really be throwing yourself for a loop by trying to convince yourself that this extremely common phenomenon is just some irrational figment of your anxiety that never really happens. It might be better instead to accept that it happens and is a real possibility, but to work instead towards not seeing as such a big deal when it does happen. I know that's easier for me to say than it probably is for you to do, but I think that's the more effective path.
posted by Ashley801 at 5:56 AM on November 4, 2010 [1 favorite]
IMO, trust is something that should be earned, not something that should be given. The way someone earns trust is by behaving in a trustworthy way over time. There's no way for this girl you met to have earned your trust, since you just met her. You haven't had a chance to see how she acts over time.
So if you need to be able to trust that someone will behave in a particular way, or you will feel really messed up, I think that person should be someone you know well, who. Not someone you just met.
If you want to get to know someone and build trust with them, start with little things to give yourself a chance to build the trust over time. Start with things that won't be as important to you as this, if the person doesn't come though.
I had been working with these feelings, many of which involved fears that this woman would stand me up. I did a lot of CBT on them and I was feeling pretty good that these feelings were irrational projections of my past. When they came true, it really hit me hard.
I think this only works when something IS an irrational projection. But people standing other people up is not an irrational projection. It's something that is very common and people do it all the time, especially when it comes to dating. In some places I've lived *coughpacificnorthwestcough* it seems like people flake out more than they actually end up meeting up with each other.
You might really be throwing yourself for a loop by trying to convince yourself that this extremely common phenomenon is just some irrational figment of your anxiety that never really happens. It might be better instead to accept that it happens and is a real possibility, but to work instead towards not seeing as such a big deal when it does happen. I know that's easier for me to say than it probably is for you to do, but I think that's the more effective path.
posted by Ashley801 at 5:56 AM on November 4, 2010 [1 favorite]
Yes, what Ashley801 said! This is a normal part of dating. It's not a referendum on whether women are trustworthy (or even on whether this particular woman is trustworthy.) Vent about it to your female friends, and then get right back out there. You can never learn to "trust women" because (as everyone here has pointed out) there's no one monolithic thing as "women," and it's premature to even be talking about trust when you don't even know these people enough to know whether to trust them. This is about learning to have trust and faith in yourself that you can face the unpleasant feelings this is bringing up, and survive, and move on.
Since being stood up is a specific, major concern for you, maybe you could make a practice of sending a text a few hours before the date, asking "Hey, still good for later? Looking forward to seeing you!" or something similar. If you don't hear back an hour before you're meant to meet her, call. If she doesn't answer the text and the phone call, you just assume something came up for her and don't go on the date at all. With this methodology, you'll probably never be stood up again. Good luck!
posted by pseudostrabismus at 9:59 PM on November 3 [6 favorites +] [!]
Nah, I wouldn't do this. This would freak me out a bit if I were on the receiving end of it, and if I just happened to be really busy that day and not have time to respond, then you would end up standing me up! I also wouldn't bother to deal with your flakey date anymore -- not ask her out again, not tell her you think she's a flake, nothing. The idea is to *reduce the drama* surrounding dating, not to increase it. In my mind, setting up any kind of rigid protective regime, or getting engaged in personal exchange with this woman about your "needs" or her behavior, is unnecessary drama. You know how on metafilter we say "flag and move on"? Well -- for this girl, "delete and move on." [Delete = delete number, text messages, email, etc.
Get on back out there, champ.
posted by yarly at 6:57 AM on November 4, 2010
Since being stood up is a specific, major concern for you, maybe you could make a practice of sending a text a few hours before the date, asking "Hey, still good for later? Looking forward to seeing you!" or something similar. If you don't hear back an hour before you're meant to meet her, call. If she doesn't answer the text and the phone call, you just assume something came up for her and don't go on the date at all. With this methodology, you'll probably never be stood up again. Good luck!
posted by pseudostrabismus at 9:59 PM on November 3 [6 favorites +] [!]
Nah, I wouldn't do this. This would freak me out a bit if I were on the receiving end of it, and if I just happened to be really busy that day and not have time to respond, then you would end up standing me up! I also wouldn't bother to deal with your flakey date anymore -- not ask her out again, not tell her you think she's a flake, nothing. The idea is to *reduce the drama* surrounding dating, not to increase it. In my mind, setting up any kind of rigid protective regime, or getting engaged in personal exchange with this woman about your "needs" or her behavior, is unnecessary drama. You know how on metafilter we say "flag and move on"? Well -- for this girl, "delete and move on." [Delete = delete number, text messages, email, etc.
Get on back out there, champ.
posted by yarly at 6:57 AM on November 4, 2010
Oh, and for what it's worth, I think you're totally justified in feeling pissed off at this girl, and even a little hurt and rejected, and you're also justified in not trusting her. I think most people would feel those things. What you have to navigate is tricky: being hurt here and wanting to avoid her is normal and healthy for you; but being enraged, upset, viewing her as a "bad person" instead of merely a flake, or making big conclusions like this means you shouldn't date anymore, is not healthy. It seems like your challenge is to learn how to respond to difficult situations with the *appropriate* amount of feeling, but without denying that they're hurtful.
posted by yarly at 7:06 AM on November 4, 2010
posted by yarly at 7:06 AM on November 4, 2010
Mod note: Another reply from the asker.
In many instances we come to attract what we see in the proverbial mirror: worthless, unlucky? And we will attract what we think we deserve.posted by cortex (staff) at 8:17 AM on November 4, 2010
However, this may not be the case for you, and much of your fear could be born of a temporary run of bad luck alone, merely exacerbating the existing problems further.
Is it possible that your radar somehow senses their flakiness, therefore hurling you into a sort of prophetic-seeming disaster?
I think what is most frustrating for me is that I thought I was over that tendency. In fact, my radar did go off. I was very wary of this woman, who a friend described as "throwing herself at me." However, my therapist questioned my feelings and fears regarding her and whether or not they were born of self-esteem problems. So I went ahead with it and felt bad about it a lot--pretty much the entire time. But I felt like maybe my therapist was right and I ignored those feelings. Big mistake.
Fortunately, I was not particularly attached to this woman--what I was attached to was the situation--finally I was going to prove my fears wrong. Unfortunately, these fears have a hotline to some pretty bad parts of me and I am upset that I didn't get the chance for my fears to be wrong. I felt pretty sure this was not a woman for me in general, but damn if I didn't want some sort of normal go on a few dates thing.
I also don't have a lot of trust in my therapist, I have to admit. I feel like she doesn't listen to my real fears about attracting this type of person and tells me to go ahead when my gut says no. I will have to address this with her. It doesn't help that I get this feeling from her--like she is that type of person.
I feel like she doesn't listen to my real fears about attracting this type of person and tells me to go ahead when my gut says no.
I think we all attract this type of person equally, but some of them stay in relationships with them (both friendship and romantic relationships) and some of us don't. I don't think there's much you can do about who is attracted to you, but you can totally control who you end up in a relationship with/spending a lot of time interacting with.
I think that at this point, if you get a bad feeling from a woman or an interaction with a woman, it could be a little difficult to figure out whether that's your gut sensing the reality of the situation, or whether it's your past fears/self esteem problems you might have.
But luckily, you don't have to figure that out in order to avoid ending up in a relationship with a flaky/unstable/unreliable person.
All you have to do is look at the person's behavior and what they do.
If you don't want to end up with someone who will act like a flake, think to yourself: does this person make firm plans for specific times and dates, or are they always using the phrases "maybe," "we'll see," and "I'll text you?" Do they show up to all their appointments (not just the ones with you) on time, or late or not at all?
This woman is behaving in a wishy-washy way. That doesn't make her a bad person, and it doesn't mean she should just be stamped with the label "Flake." She may not even behave that way all the time. And other people who are usually reliable can occasionally flake on things.
But this woman seems to have consistently behaved that way from the start. So, I think you're right that maybe she's not the best person for you to date right now, since you need to be with someone more reliable.
Just watch peoples' behavior; if women act in reliable ways, they'll be a better bet for you to pursue.
posted by Ashley801 at 8:52 AM on November 4, 2010
I think we all attract this type of person equally, but some of them stay in relationships with them (both friendship and romantic relationships) and some of us don't. I don't think there's much you can do about who is attracted to you, but you can totally control who you end up in a relationship with/spending a lot of time interacting with.
I think that at this point, if you get a bad feeling from a woman or an interaction with a woman, it could be a little difficult to figure out whether that's your gut sensing the reality of the situation, or whether it's your past fears/self esteem problems you might have.
But luckily, you don't have to figure that out in order to avoid ending up in a relationship with a flaky/unstable/unreliable person.
All you have to do is look at the person's behavior and what they do.
If you don't want to end up with someone who will act like a flake, think to yourself: does this person make firm plans for specific times and dates, or are they always using the phrases "maybe," "we'll see," and "I'll text you?" Do they show up to all their appointments (not just the ones with you) on time, or late or not at all?
This woman is behaving in a wishy-washy way. That doesn't make her a bad person, and it doesn't mean she should just be stamped with the label "Flake." She may not even behave that way all the time. And other people who are usually reliable can occasionally flake on things.
But this woman seems to have consistently behaved that way from the start. So, I think you're right that maybe she's not the best person for you to date right now, since you need to be with someone more reliable.
Just watch peoples' behavior; if women act in reliable ways, they'll be a better bet for you to pursue.
posted by Ashley801 at 8:52 AM on November 4, 2010
finally I was going to prove my fears wrong
Your fears are never going to be proven wrong, you're just going to get better at not having to bump up against them. There are always going to be bad women for you, you can just learn to recognize it and not put all of your eggs in one basket. If you're not particularly social, this becomes more important since a low frequency of dating is going to make each date that much more significant, especially if you're using each date to prove some monumental point. So, my suggestion is either to up your dating to a level where the good ones drown out the bad (numbers game), or start listening to your gut and declining dates with floozies or other women who are bad for your brain (critical game). We all have Achilles Heels.
And it sounds like you probably need a new therapist. Before leaving though, I would at least tell her that she reminds you of these problem women and see where that gets you.
posted by rhizome at 12:34 PM on November 4, 2010 [1 favorite]
Your fears are never going to be proven wrong, you're just going to get better at not having to bump up against them. There are always going to be bad women for you, you can just learn to recognize it and not put all of your eggs in one basket. If you're not particularly social, this becomes more important since a low frequency of dating is going to make each date that much more significant, especially if you're using each date to prove some monumental point. So, my suggestion is either to up your dating to a level where the good ones drown out the bad (numbers game), or start listening to your gut and declining dates with floozies or other women who are bad for your brain (critical game). We all have Achilles Heels.
And it sounds like you probably need a new therapist. Before leaving though, I would at least tell her that she reminds you of these problem women and see where that gets you.
posted by rhizome at 12:34 PM on November 4, 2010 [1 favorite]
You've got to intellectualize over it for a while. It's a numbers game - keep putting yourself out there and something will hit.
posted by bunny hugger at 1:20 PM on November 4, 2010
posted by bunny hugger at 1:20 PM on November 4, 2010
If you've been seeing this therapist for a while and you're not feeling good about working with her, I would leave. If it generally feels super helpful and there's just this one thing, then maybe it's worth trying to address. But in my experience, you know good therapy when you have it.
It is also possible that your issues with trusting women are themselves hurting your therapeutic relationship. Maybe a male therapist would be a better option for you.
posted by Salamandrous at 3:52 PM on November 4, 2010
It is also possible that your issues with trusting women are themselves hurting your therapeutic relationship. Maybe a male therapist would be a better option for you.
posted by Salamandrous at 3:52 PM on November 4, 2010
You are almost testing women by expecting the women you meet to not disappoint you the way women in life already have. If you think about it, this is an expectation that is guaranteed to disappoint you over and over again.
When you meet women, meet them as individuals and human beings first- each different and unique. Each one is like a new puzzle you could solve. If you don't like the way behave, just acknowledge that this person is just, well, fickle or whatever. And there are LOTS of people who stand others up, irrespective of their gender.
Finally, if you are looking for quality, look in the right places, which can filter out as much junk as possible.
posted by xm at 6:00 PM on November 4, 2010
When you meet women, meet them as individuals and human beings first- each different and unique. Each one is like a new puzzle you could solve. If you don't like the way behave, just acknowledge that this person is just, well, fickle or whatever. And there are LOTS of people who stand others up, irrespective of their gender.
Finally, if you are looking for quality, look in the right places, which can filter out as much junk as possible.
posted by xm at 6:00 PM on November 4, 2010
Hi anonymous, here's my shot at what I think your disconnect is.
Your earliest experiences with "trustworthy" female role models in your life were intense, damaging, and uncorrected. It's fair enough to suggest that, at the time, your child's mind equated women = emotional/physical pain. Coping with the sheer fear of emotionally involving yourself with women has probably felt like a more prominent force shaping you since childhood than is normal, I would imagine. Even though you've had close female friends, there's possibly a talking-down or normalizing process to each woman you're comfortable with but not romantically attracted to. You know what it feels like, and know how to react. In fact, you're perfectly fine when you know that's all the situation is.
But... when it comes to dating and all the emotional intensity associated with, all emotionally intense triggers are flagged, especially within a dating context for obvious reasons.
What's hard to understand is that because you have no baseline for a normal reaction to an intense emotional/physical situation with a woman as a mature male adult, you have no frame of reference separating the child's mind's conditioned response (this woman is going to cause me intense pain) from the normal response (it really hurts when a pretty new girl stands me up, and although it could happen again, I`ll probably get over it). In the heat of the moment omg, she's not showing up, you're deferring to the child's mind's way of perceiving it simply because you no other frame of reference AND it happens to already be there.
You're already in therapy - this is good. And you already trust some women - this is also good. Keep doing what you're doing, but I'm still going to give you the same advice that I read somewhere here, in the green, a long time ago: that it doesn't matter whether you're talking about jerk women, or jerk men, the reality is that some people are jerks - no matter what. Understand that the "normal" part of you is reacting to the "jerk" part of the woman in a dating situation, and that the "child" part of you is reacting to the "OMG she's a woman just like mom!" part of the same person. You will always be WAY more likely to have this overreaction with women than you will be with men so don't worry about "being sexist", because you have a good reason for feeling this way to being with. But it is true that the best way to prevent poor behaviors/reactions is to be aware of them. So perhaps if you can continue to work through which parts of you are triggered and counsel them accordingly in therapy, or with a new therapist, or just some inner work but also acknowledge that you are reacting normally to a very normal situation, maybe you'll find yourself in a place to move forward in the dating game relatively soon. Your friendships with women have been teaching you stuff, but until you can debug the underlying script you happen to have about women, you won't get to the part where you can appreciate this. Best of luck!
posted by human ecologist at 7:13 PM on November 4, 2010
Your earliest experiences with "trustworthy" female role models in your life were intense, damaging, and uncorrected. It's fair enough to suggest that, at the time, your child's mind equated women = emotional/physical pain. Coping with the sheer fear of emotionally involving yourself with women has probably felt like a more prominent force shaping you since childhood than is normal, I would imagine. Even though you've had close female friends, there's possibly a talking-down or normalizing process to each woman you're comfortable with but not romantically attracted to. You know what it feels like, and know how to react. In fact, you're perfectly fine when you know that's all the situation is.
But... when it comes to dating and all the emotional intensity associated with, all emotionally intense triggers are flagged, especially within a dating context for obvious reasons.
What's hard to understand is that because you have no baseline for a normal reaction to an intense emotional/physical situation with a woman as a mature male adult, you have no frame of reference separating the child's mind's conditioned response (this woman is going to cause me intense pain) from the normal response (it really hurts when a pretty new girl stands me up, and although it could happen again, I`ll probably get over it). In the heat of the moment omg, she's not showing up, you're deferring to the child's mind's way of perceiving it simply because you no other frame of reference AND it happens to already be there.
You're already in therapy - this is good. And you already trust some women - this is also good. Keep doing what you're doing, but I'm still going to give you the same advice that I read somewhere here, in the green, a long time ago: that it doesn't matter whether you're talking about jerk women, or jerk men, the reality is that some people are jerks - no matter what. Understand that the "normal" part of you is reacting to the "jerk" part of the woman in a dating situation, and that the "child" part of you is reacting to the "OMG she's a woman just like mom!" part of the same person. You will always be WAY more likely to have this overreaction with women than you will be with men so don't worry about "being sexist", because you have a good reason for feeling this way to being with. But it is true that the best way to prevent poor behaviors/reactions is to be aware of them. So perhaps if you can continue to work through which parts of you are triggered and counsel them accordingly in therapy, or with a new therapist, or just some inner work but also acknowledge that you are reacting normally to a very normal situation, maybe you'll find yourself in a place to move forward in the dating game relatively soon. Your friendships with women have been teaching you stuff, but until you can debug the underlying script you happen to have about women, you won't get to the part where you can appreciate this. Best of luck!
posted by human ecologist at 7:13 PM on November 4, 2010
Seconding locating a new therapist.
In reply to OP's response above: I don't think we can ever completely eradicate tendencies to slip back into negative patterns, so totally try to forgive yourself the occasional lapse. We take a lifetime to learn such behaviors, therefore we need to accept that it might take a long time to actually quit them, especially at an unconscious level.
The positive thing is that you are at least aware of them (the devil you know and all that), and care to work them out.
Good luck with your journey through this. It can be overcome.
posted by noella at 2:38 PM on November 5, 2010
In reply to OP's response above: I don't think we can ever completely eradicate tendencies to slip back into negative patterns, so totally try to forgive yourself the occasional lapse. We take a lifetime to learn such behaviors, therefore we need to accept that it might take a long time to actually quit them, especially at an unconscious level.
The positive thing is that you are at least aware of them (the devil you know and all that), and care to work them out.
Good luck with your journey through this. It can be overcome.
posted by noella at 2:38 PM on November 5, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by notsnot at 7:50 PM on November 3, 2010 [8 favorites]