Is there a "hoarding gene?"
October 29, 2010 12:48 PM Subscribe
Is there a hoarding gene?
Ok, wife and I dont get along for a lot of reasons, but this one has become a sticking point of late. Hoarding.
Our house is becoming truly weird, at least to me, in certain places. The room that was supposed to be the kid's playroom, is calf deep in crap. God knows whatever toys we have bought them over the years, from unopened presents, to the half of a Happy Meal toy still laying there.I have begged her to let me toss at least, like the ragged jigsaw puzzles that are missing half its pieces etc but she freaks out. very loudly
Our basement is gorgeous, fully finished and unlivable. We bought the place from her folks about 8 years ago, and half their shit is still there. Broken sewing machines, half a crib that they never even used, a falling apart desk, boxes upon boxes of clothes, a stove from the 40's I cant even fathom how they got down there, then our stuff.
This, equates to one corner with all my albums, and an old cedar chest, and a few office file type boxes with some old papers of mine. The rest of it completely, need to carve a path through it to get to the laundry all hers. every text book she ever had since HS on. All the kids clothes and toys we should have pitched or given to friends 10 years ago. She has a mountain of styrofoam pieces she swear we need to save for school projects.
the reason I ask about the genetics, is twofold.
One,
her cousin is a hoarder, to the point, the concerned family chipped in and spent 12K to hire SWAT type cleaners to just empty her house when she was gone. her highschooler got to the point she ate her meals over the sink, because there was not a single place to sit at a table, or even in a chair, not in the whole house. It was filled basement to rafters with unread newspapers, designer clothes with the tags still on them, 10 years worth of unread mail. 400K house, in one of the most desirable neighborhoods in Chicago Yeah, she is a doctor.
Then her aunts same thing. she crawled over a five foot high pile of newspapers to get to her bedroom. where she slept on the floor. Toilet filled to the brim with shit because it broke 8 years before, used to do her business on newpapers, then take it out to the garbage, and ten racks of designer clothers dating back to 60's that had never been worn, still in their bags, in the basement, where there was about a 12 inch wide crawl space to get through. She went to work in an office every day, never missed a days work in 20 years.
Two.
I am starrting to seeing this behavior in our kids now. Both son and daughter's closets are gone, no longer used for clothes, but the sort of things you have to put your back against the door and hope what rushes out when you open it.isnt going to kill you. Daughter doesnt seem to realize the headless doll she has when she was one, can go, son has pretty much every paper he has ever done in school since 1st grade, and now has just over a year's worth of sports pages. I try to tell him he doesnt need his second grade math papers, and that anything in them damned sports pages is already on his phone.
I have tried talking to the wife, everything from the very sweet, "ah yawn..hey hon, how about we clean out the kids room today , loveya smoochey", to the full on "you are fuckin insane, you are turning our house into a hell hole, just like your cousins and your whacko aunts and every other fuckin mental deficient in your family.
She has very visceral, almost allergic reaction. First thing is always the running and screaming "NO NO NO NO NO ITS NOT YOURS!!!!" (This applies to her things, as well as the kid stuff)
Once she calms down a little, which is usually a while, she barks at me saying we need to save the stuff because we are going to have a garage sale. We've been togther 19 yeears, Still no garage sale. Or her other standard fallback is "Well we can donate it for a tax deduction" When why we have never had a garage sale or donated anything for a tax deduction, her standard reply is she is too busy. A very frustarting circular logic of heresa...we need to do this...but I am too busy to do this. I mean how the hell do counter that? When I try to point out her logic just doesnt make sense, its back to the "NO NO NO NO" stuff.
I admit fully, I am a slob. Look at my desk and you would think somebody ate a bunch of magazines, cds, cigarettes, and coffee cups, then puked, But I throw my stuff out when it needs throwing. Im worst with New Yorkers, because I am never quite sure I am done reading them. Still, I know when my crap is crap, and just pitch it.
Anyway, this has made my life lousy for years. Any shrinks, sons daughters cousins of hoarders have any knowledge? I know there is nothing you can personally do for me and thats cool, but I swear I just wonder, is this shit genetic?
Ok, wife and I dont get along for a lot of reasons, but this one has become a sticking point of late. Hoarding.
Our house is becoming truly weird, at least to me, in certain places. The room that was supposed to be the kid's playroom, is calf deep in crap. God knows whatever toys we have bought them over the years, from unopened presents, to the half of a Happy Meal toy still laying there.I have begged her to let me toss at least, like the ragged jigsaw puzzles that are missing half its pieces etc but she freaks out. very loudly
Our basement is gorgeous, fully finished and unlivable. We bought the place from her folks about 8 years ago, and half their shit is still there. Broken sewing machines, half a crib that they never even used, a falling apart desk, boxes upon boxes of clothes, a stove from the 40's I cant even fathom how they got down there, then our stuff.
This, equates to one corner with all my albums, and an old cedar chest, and a few office file type boxes with some old papers of mine. The rest of it completely, need to carve a path through it to get to the laundry all hers. every text book she ever had since HS on. All the kids clothes and toys we should have pitched or given to friends 10 years ago. She has a mountain of styrofoam pieces she swear we need to save for school projects.
the reason I ask about the genetics, is twofold.
One,
her cousin is a hoarder, to the point, the concerned family chipped in and spent 12K to hire SWAT type cleaners to just empty her house when she was gone. her highschooler got to the point she ate her meals over the sink, because there was not a single place to sit at a table, or even in a chair, not in the whole house. It was filled basement to rafters with unread newspapers, designer clothes with the tags still on them, 10 years worth of unread mail. 400K house, in one of the most desirable neighborhoods in Chicago Yeah, she is a doctor.
Then her aunts same thing. she crawled over a five foot high pile of newspapers to get to her bedroom. where she slept on the floor. Toilet filled to the brim with shit because it broke 8 years before, used to do her business on newpapers, then take it out to the garbage, and ten racks of designer clothers dating back to 60's that had never been worn, still in their bags, in the basement, where there was about a 12 inch wide crawl space to get through. She went to work in an office every day, never missed a days work in 20 years.
Two.
I am starrting to seeing this behavior in our kids now. Both son and daughter's closets are gone, no longer used for clothes, but the sort of things you have to put your back against the door and hope what rushes out when you open it.isnt going to kill you. Daughter doesnt seem to realize the headless doll she has when she was one, can go, son has pretty much every paper he has ever done in school since 1st grade, and now has just over a year's worth of sports pages. I try to tell him he doesnt need his second grade math papers, and that anything in them damned sports pages is already on his phone.
I have tried talking to the wife, everything from the very sweet, "ah yawn..hey hon, how about we clean out the kids room today , loveya smoochey", to the full on "you are fuckin insane, you are turning our house into a hell hole, just like your cousins and your whacko aunts and every other fuckin mental deficient in your family.
She has very visceral, almost allergic reaction. First thing is always the running and screaming "NO NO NO NO NO ITS NOT YOURS!!!!" (This applies to her things, as well as the kid stuff)
Once she calms down a little, which is usually a while, she barks at me saying we need to save the stuff because we are going to have a garage sale. We've been togther 19 yeears, Still no garage sale. Or her other standard fallback is "Well we can donate it for a tax deduction" When why we have never had a garage sale or donated anything for a tax deduction, her standard reply is she is too busy. A very frustarting circular logic of heresa...we need to do this...but I am too busy to do this. I mean how the hell do counter that? When I try to point out her logic just doesnt make sense, its back to the "NO NO NO NO" stuff.
I admit fully, I am a slob. Look at my desk and you would think somebody ate a bunch of magazines, cds, cigarettes, and coffee cups, then puked, But I throw my stuff out when it needs throwing. Im worst with New Yorkers, because I am never quite sure I am done reading them. Still, I know when my crap is crap, and just pitch it.
Anyway, this has made my life lousy for years. Any shrinks, sons daughters cousins of hoarders have any knowledge? I know there is nothing you can personally do for me and thats cool, but I swear I just wonder, is this shit genetic?
Yes, genetics can play a role in this, but it's not too late for your children. Just know that when it comes to your wife, you won't win this fight. She's only going to get worse.
If it's an option, you should move out and attempt to get custody of the children (or at least shared custody). Enforce cleanliness and sanitation.
Hoarding behavior affects every aspect of your life, and you may not even realize it; were you a slob before you started living with your wife, for example?
posted by sonic meat machine at 12:59 PM on October 29, 2010
If it's an option, you should move out and attempt to get custody of the children (or at least shared custody). Enforce cleanliness and sanitation.
Hoarding behavior affects every aspect of your life, and you may not even realize it; were you a slob before you started living with your wife, for example?
posted by sonic meat machine at 12:59 PM on October 29, 2010
There are hoarders in my family, and it seems to be associated with other mental disorders (anxiety and depression).
This summer I read Stuff: Compulsive Hoarding and the Meaning of Things - it's really a pop science book meant for lay persons, but it clarified a lot of basic stuff for me. There isn't one definitive behavior called "Hoarding" and it has a lot of causes and triggers. I think it will be really helpful specifically because it contains several stories of child hoarders who grow out of their behaviors, and children who grow up with a parent or sibling who hoards.
Like most everything, it turns out that hoarding behaviors stem from a complex interaction between genetics and environment.
posted by muddgirl at 12:59 PM on October 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
This summer I read Stuff: Compulsive Hoarding and the Meaning of Things - it's really a pop science book meant for lay persons, but it clarified a lot of basic stuff for me. There isn't one definitive behavior called "Hoarding" and it has a lot of causes and triggers. I think it will be really helpful specifically because it contains several stories of child hoarders who grow out of their behaviors, and children who grow up with a parent or sibling who hoards.
Like most everything, it turns out that hoarding behaviors stem from a complex interaction between genetics and environment.
posted by muddgirl at 12:59 PM on October 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
No.
Every single complex psychological phenomenon is likely to be due to an interaction of genes and environment (e.g., your genes are turned on and off by your environment, your genes affect what environments you find yourself in, your genes affect your parenting). There is unlikely to be one single gene for any complex psychological phenomenon.
posted by emilyd22222 at 1:03 PM on October 29, 2010 [6 favorites]
Every single complex psychological phenomenon is likely to be due to an interaction of genes and environment (e.g., your genes are turned on and off by your environment, your genes affect what environments you find yourself in, your genes affect your parenting). There is unlikely to be one single gene for any complex psychological phenomenon.
posted by emilyd22222 at 1:03 PM on October 29, 2010 [6 favorites]
I'd recommend that you read Stuff: Compulsive Hoarding and the Meaning of Things by Randy Frost and Gail Steketee, particularly the chapter "A Tree With Too Many Branches: Genetics and the Brain." Frost and Steketee work with hoarders and research why the phenomenon occurs. That chapter focuses on the often hereditary nature of hoarding, and what that means for hoarders and their families.
I'd also encourage you to look at the clutter rating scale that they use so you can get some sense of how bad your family's problem is. Where does your wife fall? Where does her aunt? Where do your children?
posted by ocherdraco at 1:06 PM on October 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
I'd also encourage you to look at the clutter rating scale that they use so you can get some sense of how bad your family's problem is. Where does your wife fall? Where does her aunt? Where do your children?
posted by ocherdraco at 1:06 PM on October 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
You may also find helpful their more self-help oriented book, Buried in Treasures (with David Tolin).
posted by ocherdraco at 1:11 PM on October 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by ocherdraco at 1:11 PM on October 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
Supposing someone could show you evidence that hoarding was associated with a single gene. What would you do with that information if you had it?
posted by tel3path at 1:37 PM on October 29, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by tel3path at 1:37 PM on October 29, 2010 [3 favorites]
Well, what if there was a hoarding gene, then what? As others have said, these things are usually a combination of factors. Even the most sane, tidy person can let things get cluttered from time to time however where it morphs into other things -- compulsive shopping, collecting, anxiety, etc. -- is when you've got a problem whether it's genetic or not.
I think you guys are going to need to get to the bottom of this. Get the kids a babysitter outside of the house. Make a date with your wife to discuss this very important issue. It's ultimatum time. Be calm. Recognize that calling her crazy or shouting at her won't undo this. Recognize that she's holding onto these things for a reason -- you need to get to the bottom of that reason and then you need to decide, together, how to address it.
And you need help. You would probably benefit from some therapy with someone who specializes in these issues and your wife should go with you. That's the ultimatum. Because, I'm thinking this is bigger than either of you. It's bigger than just "getting rid of stuff."
And then, you'll need more help. Either a trusted family member (who is not a hoarder) or a close family friend who can help you guys go through stuff. I find that I'm more receptive to a neutral party encouraging me to do hard work than my husband.
After you and your wife start coming together on this, you got to work on the kids. Family therapy. You guys can probably turn this all around but it's going to take patience and work.
posted by amanda at 1:53 PM on October 29, 2010 [3 favorites]
I think you guys are going to need to get to the bottom of this. Get the kids a babysitter outside of the house. Make a date with your wife to discuss this very important issue. It's ultimatum time. Be calm. Recognize that calling her crazy or shouting at her won't undo this. Recognize that she's holding onto these things for a reason -- you need to get to the bottom of that reason and then you need to decide, together, how to address it.
And you need help. You would probably benefit from some therapy with someone who specializes in these issues and your wife should go with you. That's the ultimatum. Because, I'm thinking this is bigger than either of you. It's bigger than just "getting rid of stuff."
And then, you'll need more help. Either a trusted family member (who is not a hoarder) or a close family friend who can help you guys go through stuff. I find that I'm more receptive to a neutral party encouraging me to do hard work than my husband.
After you and your wife start coming together on this, you got to work on the kids. Family therapy. You guys can probably turn this all around but it's going to take patience and work.
posted by amanda at 1:53 PM on October 29, 2010 [3 favorites]
No, I don't think hoarding is genetic. My Mom has held onto a lot of stuff because of the memory it provides and that it might be useful some day. My FIL is a packrat and as such my husband has a similar attitude, but there is hope. You might find good solutions on Unclutterer.com as well.
Try framing the discussion with your wife as to what the real problem is and don't try to frame it as "You want to get rid of my stuff!!". But I agree with the other poster - professional therapy might do wonders. Modelling the behaviour you want to change can also help. Once my husband saw me getting rid of things, he got on the bandwagon as much as he was able to. He was pleased that when he got rid of tons of old computer hardware and broken electronics he could actually have a place to put a chair and his turntable. The easiest way to motivate people is generally through "What's in it for me?"
I'm glad to hear that you want this problem to go away. Our house was never clean and we could never have friends over, and it would be sad if your kids had to grow up this way. Good luck!
posted by Calzephyr at 1:57 PM on October 29, 2010
Try framing the discussion with your wife as to what the real problem is and don't try to frame it as "You want to get rid of my stuff!!". But I agree with the other poster - professional therapy might do wonders. Modelling the behaviour you want to change can also help. Once my husband saw me getting rid of things, he got on the bandwagon as much as he was able to. He was pleased that when he got rid of tons of old computer hardware and broken electronics he could actually have a place to put a chair and his turntable. The easiest way to motivate people is generally through "What's in it for me?"
I'm glad to hear that you want this problem to go away. Our house was never clean and we could never have friends over, and it would be sad if your kids had to grow up this way. Good luck!
posted by Calzephyr at 1:57 PM on October 29, 2010
A quick run at google-fu says it is possibly or partyl genetic. Hoarding is part of the OCD and Anxiety spectrums of mental health. Reality says that it's going to be part genetic and part socio-environmental. What ratio? I'm not a geneticist or psychologist, they can figure it out.
Intervene and look towards professional help. Psychologist or therapist should be the best routes, and possibly both. Have a calm, serious conversation with your wife.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 2:14 PM on October 29, 2010
Intervene and look towards professional help. Psychologist or therapist should be the best routes, and possibly both. Have a calm, serious conversation with your wife.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 2:14 PM on October 29, 2010
Although you didn't ask for resources, and I'm not really answering the questions, here's my input. I liked Does this Clutter Make My Butt Look Fat, which I read just before a major purge. It really helped me a lot, although I was never close to being a hoarder. I also used the excercise of putting just a few things every day in a Goodwill bag, and making a trip every Saturday to drop it off. Flylady is also a good resource to take back your life. The one thing these all have in common is they tell you how to start. And they recommend that you take very small steps that eventually lead you to major progress.
posted by raisingsand at 2:20 PM on October 29, 2010
posted by raisingsand at 2:20 PM on October 29, 2010
Please take this with a grain of salt...
From the many episodes of Hoarders I have watched, I am always curious about the children who start to adapt the parent's behaviors vs. those who do not, and in turn are absolutely disgusted. I've developed a little theory that is in no way scientific or anything else. Just observations.
Several things I've noticed:
Most of the hoarders featured are women. Don't know if that even speaks to the numbers; it's A+E's choice who they feature. But because women tend to be the child rearing parent, it feels like the mother's rationales for keeping this thing or that thing are often expressed around the children and it gets ingrained into the child's way of thinking. I mean, children are impressionable, and the reasons sound good at face value: this paper is important b/c of y, Aunt Ginny gave this to me, etc.
Younger kids (shown on Hoarders) are more likely to display forms of hoarding than the teenagers/adult childen. This might be because younger kids are less likely to have had the experience other children's houses. Without insight into the way that other people keep house, some kids accept that this is the way everyone lives to some degree.
The kids who tend to be disgusted usually say things like "the other kids houses don't look like this" or "I like going over to Billy's house..." That is to say, they don't internalize it as normal in the grand scheme of their experiences. They know for a fact that everyone else is NOT doing this. A common plea is that they want their friends to be able to come over, which makes me feel that the kids have matured to worry about their friend's feelings in addition to (or above) their parents feeling, whereas younger children don't quite have this yet.
Not scientific in the least, just the thought that external environment seems to play a huge part (at least from where I'm sitting on the couch).
posted by alice ayres at 2:22 PM on October 29, 2010
From the many episodes of Hoarders I have watched, I am always curious about the children who start to adapt the parent's behaviors vs. those who do not, and in turn are absolutely disgusted. I've developed a little theory that is in no way scientific or anything else. Just observations.
Several things I've noticed:
Most of the hoarders featured are women. Don't know if that even speaks to the numbers; it's A+E's choice who they feature. But because women tend to be the child rearing parent, it feels like the mother's rationales for keeping this thing or that thing are often expressed around the children and it gets ingrained into the child's way of thinking. I mean, children are impressionable, and the reasons sound good at face value: this paper is important b/c of y, Aunt Ginny gave this to me, etc.
Younger kids (shown on Hoarders) are more likely to display forms of hoarding than the teenagers/adult childen. This might be because younger kids are less likely to have had the experience other children's houses. Without insight into the way that other people keep house, some kids accept that this is the way everyone lives to some degree.
The kids who tend to be disgusted usually say things like "the other kids houses don't look like this" or "I like going over to Billy's house..." That is to say, they don't internalize it as normal in the grand scheme of their experiences. They know for a fact that everyone else is NOT doing this. A common plea is that they want their friends to be able to come over, which makes me feel that the kids have matured to worry about their friend's feelings in addition to (or above) their parents feeling, whereas younger children don't quite have this yet.
Not scientific in the least, just the thought that external environment seems to play a huge part (at least from where I'm sitting on the couch).
posted by alice ayres at 2:22 PM on October 29, 2010
Response by poster: Supposing someone could show you evidence that hoarding was associated with a single gene. What would you do with that information if you had it?
posted by tel3path at 1:37 PM
Right now, probably hire an evil scientist to find a pathway from it, to the being an unhelpful poop stinkin up my green gene.
posted by timsteil at 2:32 PM on October 29, 2010
posted by tel3path at 1:37 PM
Right now, probably hire an evil scientist to find a pathway from it, to the being an unhelpful poop stinkin up my green gene.
posted by timsteil at 2:32 PM on October 29, 2010
Response by poster: I guess I might have framed this too vaguely. It was never meant to be a question of genetics, or eugenics, or whatever I would do in that respect. Just wondered why that behavior is all over my wife's side of the family, and seems to be showing up in the kids.
My best guess.
Wife has this weird eastern -European, everything is worth money and you cant have it because it's mine mindset. this is pretty well replicated across all her family, even those who arent hoarders, in their financial dealings with each other.
Daughter - eh, she's just too lazy to deal with tossing anyting
Son - he somehow equates all those papers with achievemnt, whether its a good grade he got, or his favorite team's winning. I get that a little, but like I said, it's all on his phone.
FWIW, Ive always been a bit of a slob. Break down and refile on my CDs every once in a while, toss my magazines. When I was single, my take on when to wash the kitchen floor is when I stuck to it. I keep a lot of silly thinks for sentimental reasons, but I dont buy things complusivley and never wear/use them, dont try to save everything like newspapers etc. I dont look at ever stray penny like I could get a nickel for it.
Thank you folks for all your answers. I really do appreciate you for that.
posted by timsteil at 2:44 PM on October 29, 2010
My best guess.
Wife has this weird eastern -European, everything is worth money and you cant have it because it's mine mindset. this is pretty well replicated across all her family, even those who arent hoarders, in their financial dealings with each other.
Daughter - eh, she's just too lazy to deal with tossing anyting
Son - he somehow equates all those papers with achievemnt, whether its a good grade he got, or his favorite team's winning. I get that a little, but like I said, it's all on his phone.
FWIW, Ive always been a bit of a slob. Break down and refile on my CDs every once in a while, toss my magazines. When I was single, my take on when to wash the kitchen floor is when I stuck to it. I keep a lot of silly thinks for sentimental reasons, but I dont buy things complusivley and never wear/use them, dont try to save everything like newspapers etc. I dont look at ever stray penny like I could get a nickel for it.
Thank you folks for all your answers. I really do appreciate you for that.
posted by timsteil at 2:44 PM on October 29, 2010
I was redirected here from my own, earlier thread about hoarding. My mother's hoarding has progressed quite far. I notice the same tendencies in myself, but I know what signs to watch out for.
Arguing from my own experience, I can only say there is a big upbringing component to this. I come from a family of poor immigrants, in which a regular paycheck wasn't a certainty. It made sense to keep everything, buy ahead, buy in bulk, etc. From there, it's only a short mental leap to hoarding becoming a source of comfort and confidence, and junking things — a sign of poor judgment and a fundamental threat to one's well-being.
One of my most prominent memories of the last couple of years was discovering a load of 10+ year-old butter in my mother's freezer. I packed it up in a grocery bag, hoping to discreetly throw it out and buy fresh food. My mother came home as I was heading down the building stairway and we had a bizarre altercation. It wasn't even a real fight. Eyes blazing, all she could do was keep lunging after the bag while screaming "Gimme! Gimme! Gimme!"
posted by Nomyte at 2:59 PM on October 29, 2010
Arguing from my own experience, I can only say there is a big upbringing component to this. I come from a family of poor immigrants, in which a regular paycheck wasn't a certainty. It made sense to keep everything, buy ahead, buy in bulk, etc. From there, it's only a short mental leap to hoarding becoming a source of comfort and confidence, and junking things — a sign of poor judgment and a fundamental threat to one's well-being.
One of my most prominent memories of the last couple of years was discovering a load of 10+ year-old butter in my mother's freezer. I packed it up in a grocery bag, hoping to discreetly throw it out and buy fresh food. My mother came home as I was heading down the building stairway and we had a bizarre altercation. It wasn't even a real fight. Eyes blazing, all she could do was keep lunging after the bag while screaming "Gimme! Gimme! Gimme!"
posted by Nomyte at 2:59 PM on October 29, 2010
Nope, there is no gene for hoarding. In general, "genetic" determinations are grossly overstated.
posted by OmieWise at 3:26 PM on October 29, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by OmieWise at 3:26 PM on October 29, 2010 [2 favorites]
Having recently been the subject of a grad student's practice bio-social evaluation, it was was reported to me that, despite appearances, I am not a hoarder because, 1) each of the many things I am storing for possible future use are in fact rare, unique or notable in some way, and 2) I retrieve and create novel things from my collection at about the same rate as I add to it.
Last week, I told my mother that, contrary to some opinions, I was apparently not a hoarder. She told me that my grandfather, whose profession and lifestyle were most often identified as "inventor," went to the junkyard every single day of her life at home, and pretty much every day of his life, as far as she knew. Including Sundays. I must say he had some great stuff stored in shelf after shelf in his basement. (If he had died when I was just a little bit older, I'd probably have most of it here.)
posted by StickyCarpet at 3:27 PM on October 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
Last week, I told my mother that, contrary to some opinions, I was apparently not a hoarder. She told me that my grandfather, whose profession and lifestyle were most often identified as "inventor," went to the junkyard every single day of her life at home, and pretty much every day of his life, as far as she knew. Including Sundays. I must say he had some great stuff stored in shelf after shelf in his basement. (If he had died when I was just a little bit older, I'd probably have most of it here.)
posted by StickyCarpet at 3:27 PM on October 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
I actually do think it's genetic, for...reasons...but I think the point above that it sort of doesn't matter is a good one. It doesn't make anything easier either way.
1. Can you just take out an ad for a yard sale and have one and tell her the date? You seem to have gotten in the habit of assuming she can veto so it seems like you probably need to work on some type of partnership in communication in general.
2. Marriage counseling would be a good idea because it sounds like the conflict has gotten overly emotional and you both could use a disinterested third party.
3. You probably should avoid doing this: ""you are fuckin insane, you are turning our house into a hell hole, just like your cousins and your whacko aunts and every other fuckin mental deficient in your family." for a variety of reasons but mainly because that sort of thing is really polarizing and stands in the way of sanely working things out.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 3:34 PM on October 29, 2010
1. Can you just take out an ad for a yard sale and have one and tell her the date? You seem to have gotten in the habit of assuming she can veto so it seems like you probably need to work on some type of partnership in communication in general.
2. Marriage counseling would be a good idea because it sounds like the conflict has gotten overly emotional and you both could use a disinterested third party.
3. You probably should avoid doing this: ""you are fuckin insane, you are turning our house into a hell hole, just like your cousins and your whacko aunts and every other fuckin mental deficient in your family." for a variety of reasons but mainly because that sort of thing is really polarizing and stands in the way of sanely working things out.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 3:34 PM on October 29, 2010
junking things — a sign of poor judgment and a fundamental threat to one's well-being.
I just see it as a failure of imagination. I have a friend who as a child was dumped on his poor grandmother, who relentlessly reminded him of what a financial burden he was. Now, he was a hoarder. Mostly pretty good stuff, but he was hoarding junked cars to park bumper to bumper on his lawn as storage sheds for electronic components. His dispute with the municipal authorities, eventually resulting in an overnight jail stay, did have a silver lining: a monthly total disability social security check for life.
posted by StickyCarpet at 3:44 PM on October 29, 2010
I just see it as a failure of imagination. I have a friend who as a child was dumped on his poor grandmother, who relentlessly reminded him of what a financial burden he was. Now, he was a hoarder. Mostly pretty good stuff, but he was hoarding junked cars to park bumper to bumper on his lawn as storage sheds for electronic components. His dispute with the municipal authorities, eventually resulting in an overnight jail stay, did have a silver lining: a monthly total disability social security check for life.
posted by StickyCarpet at 3:44 PM on October 29, 2010
As for how to most painlessly remove stuff, this is really the only thing t hat works for me: get some kind of temporary storage, such as the basement of a warehouse, or the corner of a barn, move the stuff there for about two years, then relinquish the space, and only items that can be specified from memory are candidates for re-acquisition, the rest goes.
With any luck, quite a bit will have been stolen or damaged over time, anyway.
posted by StickyCarpet at 3:53 PM on October 29, 2010 [2 favorites]
With any luck, quite a bit will have been stolen or damaged over time, anyway.
posted by StickyCarpet at 3:53 PM on October 29, 2010 [2 favorites]
It's more likely behavioral than genetic. I think therapy can help.
posted by rocket88 at 3:58 PM on October 29, 2010
posted by rocket88 at 3:58 PM on October 29, 2010
Hoarding seems to be the outcome of a number of problems. Possibly depression/anxiety, lack of communication, marriage problems, possibly the way she was raised, etc. Fix the problems and the outcome should resolve itself. I feel sorry for your kids because they have no choice but to live in this situation. Sad.
posted by MsKim at 4:08 PM on October 29, 2010
posted by MsKim at 4:08 PM on October 29, 2010
My mother is a hoarder. My aunt is also a hoarder. They were raised by non-hoarders.
She has very visceral, almost allergic reaction. First thing is always the running and screaming "NO NO NO NO NO ITS NOT YOURS!!!!" (This applies to her things, as well as the kid stuff)
Having spent my entire life seeing this in action, I don't think simple conversation is going to fix this. In many cases, the only thing that stands a chance of working is medication plus behavioral therapy, and that's only if the hoarder is willing to participate.
Some reading for you: Squalor Survivors and Children of Hoarders.
posted by crankylex at 4:16 PM on October 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
She has very visceral, almost allergic reaction. First thing is always the running and screaming "NO NO NO NO NO ITS NOT YOURS!!!!" (This applies to her things, as well as the kid stuff)
Having spent my entire life seeing this in action, I don't think simple conversation is going to fix this. In many cases, the only thing that stands a chance of working is medication plus behavioral therapy, and that's only if the hoarder is willing to participate.
Some reading for you: Squalor Survivors and Children of Hoarders.
posted by crankylex at 4:16 PM on October 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
Hoarding is an OCD-spectrum behavior, and yes, OCD is heritable. However, I don't see how this helps you. As a therapist, I recommend family therapy.
posted by namesarehard at 4:28 PM on October 29, 2010
posted by namesarehard at 4:28 PM on October 29, 2010
Nthing what others have said about reading Frost and Steketee's book 'Stuff'.
I would also like to recommend Digging Out: Helping Your Loved One Manage Clutter, Hoarding, and Compulsive Acquiring by Michael A. Tompkins. This is an excellent book, written specifically for the spouse, family, and/or loved ones of hoarders, on how to deal with the hoarder in your life who does not and will not accept that he's a hoarder. It's not a book on "organizing tips" or anything for people who are merely disorganized. This book actually gives you a plan for communicating with your hoarder, identifying issues, working on your relationship with your hoarder, and in general coaxing your hoarder to a healthier way of doing things.
Hoarders on A&E gets a lot of publicity, but I recommend that if you get TLC, watch Hoarding: Buried Alive. Unlike A&E's Hoarders, which finds hoarders who are about to lose their homes or kids and thus have a very short deadline to work with, Buried Alive focuses on the therapy used to help extreme hoarders. You'll learn a lot about cognitive behavior therapy, understand the severe anxiety that hoarders experience when stuff is taken from them, and see techniques that therapists use to try to help them.
Finally, more and more therapists are starting to treat hoarders and their families. The International OCD Foundation maintains a list of therapists that can provide help. (FWIW, you can find a decent profile of hoarders here).
Hoarding is a terrible disorder. Frost and Steketee have found people who have literally hoarded themselves out of their houses--they wind up having to move to an apartment. They've found people hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. They've found people who nearly died because they fell suddenly ill, and emergency services couldn't make it inside the house when called.
I don't want to be alarmist, but this is what the future may very well hold for your family if your wife doesn't get help.
From your description, your wife is deep into hoarding illness. What's more, the children may be learning the behavior from your wife. Without therapy, your wife's condition is going to get worse, not better.
posted by magstheaxe at 4:35 PM on October 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
I would also like to recommend Digging Out: Helping Your Loved One Manage Clutter, Hoarding, and Compulsive Acquiring by Michael A. Tompkins. This is an excellent book, written specifically for the spouse, family, and/or loved ones of hoarders, on how to deal with the hoarder in your life who does not and will not accept that he's a hoarder. It's not a book on "organizing tips" or anything for people who are merely disorganized. This book actually gives you a plan for communicating with your hoarder, identifying issues, working on your relationship with your hoarder, and in general coaxing your hoarder to a healthier way of doing things.
Hoarders on A&E gets a lot of publicity, but I recommend that if you get TLC, watch Hoarding: Buried Alive. Unlike A&E's Hoarders, which finds hoarders who are about to lose their homes or kids and thus have a very short deadline to work with, Buried Alive focuses on the therapy used to help extreme hoarders. You'll learn a lot about cognitive behavior therapy, understand the severe anxiety that hoarders experience when stuff is taken from them, and see techniques that therapists use to try to help them.
Finally, more and more therapists are starting to treat hoarders and their families. The International OCD Foundation maintains a list of therapists that can provide help. (FWIW, you can find a decent profile of hoarders here).
Hoarding is a terrible disorder. Frost and Steketee have found people who have literally hoarded themselves out of their houses--they wind up having to move to an apartment. They've found people hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. They've found people who nearly died because they fell suddenly ill, and emergency services couldn't make it inside the house when called.
I don't want to be alarmist, but this is what the future may very well hold for your family if your wife doesn't get help.
From your description, your wife is deep into hoarding illness. What's more, the children may be learning the behavior from your wife. Without therapy, your wife's condition is going to get worse, not better.
posted by magstheaxe at 4:35 PM on October 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
Hoarding is a combination of genetics and environmental conditions. If she wasn't given any items, or had no place to put anything, she wouldn't be a hoarder. There are genetic aspects relating to brain-stuff, but things are learned too, especially when people are children. The behavior is all over your wife's side of the family and displayed by your kids because it's both genetic and learned and based on environmental conditions.
You should ask yourself is how dysfunctional the behavior is. Are there rooms in your house you can't use? Are conditions bad enough that an outside observer would think that the children are at risk? Does this behavior interfere with your wife, your children, or your daily functioning? This behavior is obviously wrecking your marriage, and marital strife is not a genetic condition.
posted by fuq at 4:55 PM on October 29, 2010
You should ask yourself is how dysfunctional the behavior is. Are there rooms in your house you can't use? Are conditions bad enough that an outside observer would think that the children are at risk? Does this behavior interfere with your wife, your children, or your daily functioning? This behavior is obviously wrecking your marriage, and marital strife is not a genetic condition.
posted by fuq at 4:55 PM on October 29, 2010
I think it's a mixture of nature and nurture. There are also cases of hoarding instigated by physical trauma to the brain. But given your family history it sounds like there is a clear genetic element.
Violating the rules a little and going beyond your specific question, here are some non-professional observations from my own experience with a serious hoarder:
Occasional "nags" and attempts at reasonable discussion are not likely to yield any benefit. Hoarders are notably recalcitrant and resistant to "help"; in their mind there is no problem. Abrupt action on your part (i.e., bringing in the swat team w/o permission) will likely have explosive consequences and disrupt your family relationships - perhaps for a long time. So you are facing a real trade-off: live and let live or risk everything for the possibility of improvement. Ultimately you may have to take that risk for reasons of safety, etc.
A longshot suggestion - perhaps she would agree to the following: Do some packaging and offloading to a storage unit. Label each box (e.g., rubbermaid 8/10/12 gallon container) with an index number. In a spreadsheet maintain a list of the contents for each bin, and maybe take a picture thereof. This way she will have the security of knowing that each goodie is accounted for and can be easily retrieved.
Nthing others about reading up on the subject and seeking professional assistance.
posted by Kevin S at 5:49 PM on October 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
Violating the rules a little and going beyond your specific question, here are some non-professional observations from my own experience with a serious hoarder:
Occasional "nags" and attempts at reasonable discussion are not likely to yield any benefit. Hoarders are notably recalcitrant and resistant to "help"; in their mind there is no problem. Abrupt action on your part (i.e., bringing in the swat team w/o permission) will likely have explosive consequences and disrupt your family relationships - perhaps for a long time. So you are facing a real trade-off: live and let live or risk everything for the possibility of improvement. Ultimately you may have to take that risk for reasons of safety, etc.
A longshot suggestion - perhaps she would agree to the following: Do some packaging and offloading to a storage unit. Label each box (e.g., rubbermaid 8/10/12 gallon container) with an index number. In a spreadsheet maintain a list of the contents for each bin, and maybe take a picture thereof. This way she will have the security of knowing that each goodie is accounted for and can be easily retrieved.
Nthing others about reading up on the subject and seeking professional assistance.
posted by Kevin S at 5:49 PM on October 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
Hoarding is an OCD-spectrum behavior
Usually, and probably in this case. But just for balance, as I know from my experiences with at least ten high-achievers with apparent hoarding tendencies, that photographic memory can also be a factor. We actually know where and what each and every item is -- the agglomeration of which is disturbing to people who are overwhelmed by the memory requirements of these collections.
posted by StickyCarpet at 6:35 PM on October 29, 2010 [2 favorites]
Usually, and probably in this case. But just for balance, as I know from my experiences with at least ten high-achievers with apparent hoarding tendencies, that photographic memory can also be a factor. We actually know where and what each and every item is -- the agglomeration of which is disturbing to people who are overwhelmed by the memory requirements of these collections.
posted by StickyCarpet at 6:35 PM on October 29, 2010 [2 favorites]
Please reconsider viewing your daughter as "just too lazy to deal with tossing anything."
posted by Majorita at 11:51 PM on October 29, 2010 [5 favorites]
posted by Majorita at 11:51 PM on October 29, 2010 [5 favorites]
Glass houses, beams, motes, pots, kettles and whatnot. You can't and shouldn't control your wife. What you can and should do is claim one space in your home as your own, and train yourself to keep that space and that space alone tidy.
If I were your wife, and somebody I knew full well to be a slob was telling me to clean up my act, I'd probably get a bit cranky as well.
Only when you have put in the hard yards required to clean up your own act do you have a skerrick of a hope of persuading somebody else to change their personal habits.
posted by flabdablet at 2:32 AM on October 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
If I were your wife, and somebody I knew full well to be a slob was telling me to clean up my act, I'd probably get a bit cranky as well.
Only when you have put in the hard yards required to clean up your own act do you have a skerrick of a hope of persuading somebody else to change their personal habits.
posted by flabdablet at 2:32 AM on October 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
@flabdablet: The op has already accomplished exactly what you mention
"This, equates to one corner with all my albums, and an old cedar chest, and a few office file type boxes with some old papers of mine."
I think the OP is well within his right to bring this up in a "this is not OK, let me help you or else..." format.
posted by RolandOfEld at 1:17 PM on November 1, 2010
"This, equates to one corner with all my albums, and an old cedar chest, and a few office file type boxes with some old papers of mine."
I think the OP is well within his right to bring this up in a "this is not OK, let me help you or else..." format.
posted by RolandOfEld at 1:17 PM on November 1, 2010
Opps, just saw his other comment, redacting mine.
posted by RolandOfEld at 1:17 PM on November 1, 2010
posted by RolandOfEld at 1:17 PM on November 1, 2010
I admit fully, I am a slob. Look at my desk and you would think somebody ate a bunch of magazines, cds, cigarettes, and coffee cups, then puked
is what I'm talking about. My advice is attend to that first.
Rationale: I am an essentially tidy person with a tendency to hoard, and I have lived with slobs, and I have never actually seen a slob change. So I fully expect that timsteil will in fact find my advice impossible to follow, or will find endless excuses for not following it. My hope is that realizing this might promote some insight into the magnitude of what he's asking of his beloved; and that this, in turn, might enable the mindset required to treat the issue as a shared issue instead of the "I'm OK, she's busted" attitude we're seeing at the moment.
There is no way on God's green earth I would ever make a major change to the way I organize my stuff merely because somebody so apparently self-righteous seems to require me to, and I'm betting that the same is true of Mrs. timsteil. So I don't think timsteil has any realistic prospect at all of getting what he wants until he has internalized the need to approach the thing with a little more empathy and humility.
posted by flabdablet at 10:32 PM on November 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
is what I'm talking about. My advice is attend to that first.
Rationale: I am an essentially tidy person with a tendency to hoard, and I have lived with slobs, and I have never actually seen a slob change. So I fully expect that timsteil will in fact find my advice impossible to follow, or will find endless excuses for not following it. My hope is that realizing this might promote some insight into the magnitude of what he's asking of his beloved; and that this, in turn, might enable the mindset required to treat the issue as a shared issue instead of the "I'm OK, she's busted" attitude we're seeing at the moment.
There is no way on God's green earth I would ever make a major change to the way I organize my stuff merely because somebody so apparently self-righteous seems to require me to, and I'm betting that the same is true of Mrs. timsteil. So I don't think timsteil has any realistic prospect at all of getting what he wants until he has internalized the need to approach the thing with a little more empathy and humility.
posted by flabdablet at 10:32 PM on November 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Also, though you didn't ask: therapy. For you. Talk about communication and problem solving and stress and modeling healthy relationships for your children, please.
posted by SMPA at 12:56 PM on October 29, 2010