Relationship ambivalence
August 2, 2010 4:51 AM Subscribe
Is this a normal stage in long-term relationships or is it time to part?
Apologies for the awkward gender-free pronouns. My live-in partner of six years has been expressing ambivalence about our relationship for about a year. I've asked if it's anything I've done or anything about me as a person. They say no, and that they still love me. They claim that the reasons they're ambivalent are: their basic personality as a "loner;" the fact that they have only had one serious relationship, which is ours; the fact that when we got together my partner wasn't in a good place to make life decisions such as being in a long-term relationship; that the honeymoon stage is over; and that my partner, while in the not-so-good place in life, got derailed from a promising career and now feels they must play catch-up and focus on the career as the highest priority rather than the relationship. I support their career goals and believe in them.
I still love my partner, but I went through doubts myself about our relationship before my partner did. A brief separation made me see how much the person means to me. My partner is aware of my love for them and is not bitter about the separation, but sees it as a positive motivator for them to feel more independent. Since we've been back together, I've championed my partner's new-found self-sufficiency. Their previous lack of self-sufficiency was what spurred me to separate for a while and it seems that this was a really healthy thing.
I have feelings of ambivalence as well, but it may be a reaction to my partner's feelings. It's hard for me to be all-in with someone who isn't. And there are some ways in which I would like my partner to be more supportive of my goals and champion me in the way I feel I champion my partner. However, I do get this need met by friends. I would also like more affection. When I tell my partner this, they bring up the "honeymoon stage" being over, and "isn't this normal?" My partner used to be much more affectionate with me, and aside from the honeymoon, seems to associate this with having been more dependent on me, which neither of us wanted. My partner's independence is awesome and has really made me love them more, but I want the affection too.
This is the longest relationship I've been in as well, and I know that relationships go through stages of closeness and distance. How do I know if this is just one of those stages, or if my partner and I are growing apart? I am going to individual counseling, and want to be in couple's counseling. But my partner doesn't, because they feel this isn't an "us" issue; it's an issue about whether or not my partner needs to be on their own to find their true self. I have a copy of the book "Too Good To Leave, Too Bad To Stay," and my partner keeps saying they want to read it but doesn't.
My partner refuses to break up with me, though. I've asked point-blank if they just want me to move out. Their answer last time was no, but they're still ambivalent about the long term. "How do I know what I'll be doing or who I'll be with in 30 years?" comes up a lot when we discuss the future. And it's true -- 30 years is a long time and it's really hard to imagine. My partner seems unusually comfortable with being in limbo with our relationship, and continuing to be with me without attending to their feelings of ambivalence.
I'm having a hard time with this emotionally but my therapy really helps with that. It would help to know that this is a normal stage and it gets better. Or maybe it isn't -- but I need to face it, if that's the case. Maybe you MeFites with 15-year or longer relationships can provide some perspective.
Apologies for the awkward gender-free pronouns. My live-in partner of six years has been expressing ambivalence about our relationship for about a year. I've asked if it's anything I've done or anything about me as a person. They say no, and that they still love me. They claim that the reasons they're ambivalent are: their basic personality as a "loner;" the fact that they have only had one serious relationship, which is ours; the fact that when we got together my partner wasn't in a good place to make life decisions such as being in a long-term relationship; that the honeymoon stage is over; and that my partner, while in the not-so-good place in life, got derailed from a promising career and now feels they must play catch-up and focus on the career as the highest priority rather than the relationship. I support their career goals and believe in them.
I still love my partner, but I went through doubts myself about our relationship before my partner did. A brief separation made me see how much the person means to me. My partner is aware of my love for them and is not bitter about the separation, but sees it as a positive motivator for them to feel more independent. Since we've been back together, I've championed my partner's new-found self-sufficiency. Their previous lack of self-sufficiency was what spurred me to separate for a while and it seems that this was a really healthy thing.
I have feelings of ambivalence as well, but it may be a reaction to my partner's feelings. It's hard for me to be all-in with someone who isn't. And there are some ways in which I would like my partner to be more supportive of my goals and champion me in the way I feel I champion my partner. However, I do get this need met by friends. I would also like more affection. When I tell my partner this, they bring up the "honeymoon stage" being over, and "isn't this normal?" My partner used to be much more affectionate with me, and aside from the honeymoon, seems to associate this with having been more dependent on me, which neither of us wanted. My partner's independence is awesome and has really made me love them more, but I want the affection too.
This is the longest relationship I've been in as well, and I know that relationships go through stages of closeness and distance. How do I know if this is just one of those stages, or if my partner and I are growing apart? I am going to individual counseling, and want to be in couple's counseling. But my partner doesn't, because they feel this isn't an "us" issue; it's an issue about whether or not my partner needs to be on their own to find their true self. I have a copy of the book "Too Good To Leave, Too Bad To Stay," and my partner keeps saying they want to read it but doesn't.
My partner refuses to break up with me, though. I've asked point-blank if they just want me to move out. Their answer last time was no, but they're still ambivalent about the long term. "How do I know what I'll be doing or who I'll be with in 30 years?" comes up a lot when we discuss the future. And it's true -- 30 years is a long time and it's really hard to imagine. My partner seems unusually comfortable with being in limbo with our relationship, and continuing to be with me without attending to their feelings of ambivalence.
I'm having a hard time with this emotionally but my therapy really helps with that. It would help to know that this is a normal stage and it gets better. Or maybe it isn't -- but I need to face it, if that's the case. Maybe you MeFites with 15-year or longer relationships can provide some perspective.
I can't say what is right or wrong for you, but if you've been together for 6 years, and still don't know if you will want to be together 30 years from now, something there doesn't sound right. Certainly there will be ups and downs in any relationship, but unless you are determined to never really commit long term to any one person, I would question why after all this time you two don't both feel like you will still need each other for the rest of your lives.
posted by markblasco at 5:39 AM on August 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by markblasco at 5:39 AM on August 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
1. No one ever knows where or WHO they'll be in 30 years. However, for most people, there comes a time where you have to pick a pony and bet on it. You are not committing blindly to some nebulous Future-Them and Future-You; you are committing to WORKING the thing you have, working it hard, clawing through the rough stuff, and making the relationship right for both of you, regardless of your gray hairs, academic status or ZIP code.
2. A lot of people feel they'll be "freer" and better able to pursue personal awesomeness without a partner. This isn't necessarily true. Personally, having a hand to hold makes me want to scale greater heights than I would solo. But if your partner is convinced of this, there's no real talking them out of it, either.
posted by julthumbscrew at 6:29 AM on August 2, 2010 [31 favorites]
2. A lot of people feel they'll be "freer" and better able to pursue personal awesomeness without a partner. This isn't necessarily true. Personally, having a hand to hold makes me want to scale greater heights than I would solo. But if your partner is convinced of this, there's no real talking them out of it, either.
posted by julthumbscrew at 6:29 AM on August 2, 2010 [31 favorites]
If I understand you correctly, you're having a internal conflict between wanting to be with this specific person and wanting to be in a relationship in which both partners are fully commited. I think you should decide which of these two interests are most important to you and thereafter make a statement to your partner in which you clearly present this internal conflict of yours and your priorities. Also I think you should act in accordance with your stance. You can not make your partner do anything, you can only act on your own behalf.
posted by okokok at 6:32 AM on August 2, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by okokok at 6:32 AM on August 2, 2010 [2 favorites]
I apologize for how disorganized this is, but I'm just going to react and share my thoughts, because it's hard for me to get a handle on your overall question. Hope this helps.
I've asked if it's anything I've done or anything about me as a person.
Love can't be earned. You must not be very experienced in relationships yourself. Love is not something you get by meeting requirements of niceness and goodness. It's mysterious, crazy, and has nothing to do with "not doing bad things."
They say no, and that they still love me.
Probably true. It is possible to love someone as a friend without being in love with them.
the fact that they have only had one serious relationship, which is ours;
This is not usually sustainable. Most people move on from their first serious relationship and treat it as a learning experience; the others are true exceptions.
My partner is aware of my love for them and is not bitter about the separation, but sees it as a positive motivator for them to feel more independent.
Partner may not be bitter, but it sounds like you lost your gamble-you wanted them to realize they didn't need you, and they did realize it, all too well. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
Their previous lack of self-sufficiency was what spurred me to separate for a while and it seems that this was a really healthy thing.
Being separated sounds like it made both of you happier.
It's hard for me to be all-in with someone who isn't.
A person loving you should not be a requirement for you loving them. That means you're not really in love. You don't really admire them except for what they do for you.
And there are some ways in which I would like my partner to be more supportive of my goals and champion me in the way I feel I champion my partner.
Does your partner WANT you to champion them?
I would also like more affection.
Affection is a spontaneous expression of love.
How do I know if this is just one of those stages, or if my partner and I are growing apart?
Relationships are not something that just happen to people. You actively decide when it starts and when its over. You decide if its a stage or not.
My partner refuses to break up with me, though.
This is just ridiculous. Don't just stay with someone based on whether or not they "refuse" to break up with you. You break up with them; it doesn't make you the bad guy. In fact, it makes you the good guy for taking action and ending something that's not meant to be.
My partner seems unusually comfortable with being in limbo with our relationship, and continuing to be with me without attending to their feelings of ambivalence.
You can't change their feelings. All you can do is deal with your own. If they don't feel in love with you, they don't feel in love with you. They have no motivation to change; you're the one who's unhappy.
Is it a normal stage. Well, sure, it's normal in the sense that everyone experiences relationships like this. But do you want normal, IE someone else out there has suffered the same thing and that makes it okay, or do you want exceptional, and unique to you, and what makes you happy?
posted by Nixy at 6:47 AM on August 2, 2010 [2 favorites]
I've asked if it's anything I've done or anything about me as a person.
Love can't be earned. You must not be very experienced in relationships yourself. Love is not something you get by meeting requirements of niceness and goodness. It's mysterious, crazy, and has nothing to do with "not doing bad things."
They say no, and that they still love me.
Probably true. It is possible to love someone as a friend without being in love with them.
the fact that they have only had one serious relationship, which is ours;
This is not usually sustainable. Most people move on from their first serious relationship and treat it as a learning experience; the others are true exceptions.
My partner is aware of my love for them and is not bitter about the separation, but sees it as a positive motivator for them to feel more independent.
Partner may not be bitter, but it sounds like you lost your gamble-you wanted them to realize they didn't need you, and they did realize it, all too well. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
Their previous lack of self-sufficiency was what spurred me to separate for a while and it seems that this was a really healthy thing.
Being separated sounds like it made both of you happier.
It's hard for me to be all-in with someone who isn't.
A person loving you should not be a requirement for you loving them. That means you're not really in love. You don't really admire them except for what they do for you.
And there are some ways in which I would like my partner to be more supportive of my goals and champion me in the way I feel I champion my partner.
Does your partner WANT you to champion them?
I would also like more affection.
Affection is a spontaneous expression of love.
How do I know if this is just one of those stages, or if my partner and I are growing apart?
Relationships are not something that just happen to people. You actively decide when it starts and when its over. You decide if its a stage or not.
My partner refuses to break up with me, though.
This is just ridiculous. Don't just stay with someone based on whether or not they "refuse" to break up with you. You break up with them; it doesn't make you the bad guy. In fact, it makes you the good guy for taking action and ending something that's not meant to be.
My partner seems unusually comfortable with being in limbo with our relationship, and continuing to be with me without attending to their feelings of ambivalence.
You can't change their feelings. All you can do is deal with your own. If they don't feel in love with you, they don't feel in love with you. They have no motivation to change; you're the one who's unhappy.
Is it a normal stage. Well, sure, it's normal in the sense that everyone experiences relationships like this. But do you want normal, IE someone else out there has suffered the same thing and that makes it okay, or do you want exceptional, and unique to you, and what makes you happy?
posted by Nixy at 6:47 AM on August 2, 2010 [2 favorites]
I think it's pretty clearly time to let go. You're not in some boilerplate relationship with standard stages; you're in a particular relationship with a particular person. That relationship was apparently built around you supporting that person and helping them through some difficult stages of their life. You, no doubt, were getting something out of it too, but helping someone heal is not the basis of a lifelong sort of relationship. It's certainly something you do in the context of a lifelong partnership, but it's not the foundation upon which such partnerships are built. What you've got is a relationship with a natural endpoint, which you have reached.
Your partner has made it clear that they want to focus on their career, aren't inclined to be affectionate, don't want to go to counseling, and don't want to commit. You're not going to get what you want and need out of this relationship because your needs aren't now, and may never have been, one of this person's priorities.
You can stand on your own two feet, too, and you don't need your partner to force you to do it by dumping you; it's a choice you have every right to make on your own.
posted by jon1270 at 7:36 AM on August 2, 2010
Your partner has made it clear that they want to focus on their career, aren't inclined to be affectionate, don't want to go to counseling, and don't want to commit. You're not going to get what you want and need out of this relationship because your needs aren't now, and may never have been, one of this person's priorities.
You can stand on your own two feet, too, and you don't need your partner to force you to do it by dumping you; it's a choice you have every right to make on your own.
posted by jon1270 at 7:36 AM on August 2, 2010
Your partner sounds like me, a year ago. I didn't feel right in the relationship, but I also didn't want to break up because I still cared deeply for my boyfriend. I used terms like "independence" and "finding myself," etcetera, because I couldn't pinpoint why, exactly, I wasn't feeling right in the relationship. I thought it was something fixable, something wrong with me. After all, I loved him and I thought I had wanted to spend forever with him. I wasn't ready to accept that the relationship wasn't working for me; I wasn't ready to admit that I was only hanging on because I was scared of being alone. It took me eight months to finally pull the plug, but now that I have, I'm so much happier.
So, as hard as it might be, the relationship just might not be doing it for them anymore, and it is absolutely 100% no one's fault. It's just the way things go sometimes.
I'm sure some relationships can recover from this kind of slump. Mine didn't.
posted by good day merlock at 7:37 AM on August 2, 2010 [3 favorites]
So, as hard as it might be, the relationship just might not be doing it for them anymore, and it is absolutely 100% no one's fault. It's just the way things go sometimes.
I'm sure some relationships can recover from this kind of slump. Mine didn't.
posted by good day merlock at 7:37 AM on August 2, 2010 [3 favorites]
This is one of the most important things I've learned from my own experiences and from watching my friends' experiences over the past five years or so: people who are confused and ambivalent and don't know what they want may not be bad people, in fact they usually aren't, but they will hurt you just as much as bad people will.
Seriously, as far as I can tell, being in a relationship with someone who can never make up their mind about the relationship is functionally identical to dating a mind-game-playing asshole, even though the person may be perfectly nice. I say this as someone who's been on both sides; the relationship I was most unsure about is also the relationship where I'm least happy with the way I behaved.
So I think it's time to go. Once you find someone who doesn't have this problem, you'll be amazed at what you once thought you had to put up with.
posted by Ragged Richard at 7:46 AM on August 2, 2010 [54 favorites]
Seriously, as far as I can tell, being in a relationship with someone who can never make up their mind about the relationship is functionally identical to dating a mind-game-playing asshole, even though the person may be perfectly nice. I say this as someone who's been on both sides; the relationship I was most unsure about is also the relationship where I'm least happy with the way I behaved.
So I think it's time to go. Once you find someone who doesn't have this problem, you'll be amazed at what you once thought you had to put up with.
posted by Ragged Richard at 7:46 AM on August 2, 2010 [54 favorites]
Stop worrying about how your partner is going to feel in 30 years and think about how you're going to feel then, if you manage to keep holding on to this relationship. Thirty years of feeling unloved, unwanted, unsupported, and vaguely expendable, remembering affection that's decades behind you? Not only will you suffer, but it will make you your worst self, because you'll become obsessed with finding ways to get the love and attention from your partner that they should want to give you.
I'm really sorry. It's bad enough to love someone who doesn't love you back, but it's so much worse when that person chooses to be in a relationship with you anyway. You don't realise that you're no closer to being happy with this person than if you weren't together at all. And that's how you get into nonsense like "refuses to break up with me." Your partner doesn't really want you, not the way he should, and by leading you on about it, he's not being fair to you. But you can still be fair to yourself. Don't put up with this; there's better.
You'll be OK.
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 8:10 AM on August 2, 2010 [3 favorites]
I'm really sorry. It's bad enough to love someone who doesn't love you back, but it's so much worse when that person chooses to be in a relationship with you anyway. You don't realise that you're no closer to being happy with this person than if you weren't together at all. And that's how you get into nonsense like "refuses to break up with me." Your partner doesn't really want you, not the way he should, and by leading you on about it, he's not being fair to you. But you can still be fair to yourself. Don't put up with this; there's better.
You'll be OK.
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 8:10 AM on August 2, 2010 [3 favorites]
Hey anon, I'm always surprised by how ready people are to advise others to DTMFA. But maybe I don't infer as much pain and grief on your part as others are seeing.
It seems that your partner thinks they got a taste of the good life due to the separation (which I gather was your idea, apologies if I'm wrong about that) and now thinks that their improvement will continue unabated if they're no longer tied down by you or, at least, less tied down by you. I agree with julthumbscrew that this ain't necessarily so, and you should probably point that out.
In any event, what I'm writing to say is simply that I see a lot of other posters projecting their own experience onto your post (and, in the case of good day merlock, in a very kind and thoughtful way) and yet it's hard for us to actually figure out exactly what is going on here. This could very easily just be the 7 year itch and it might just be time for both of you to figure out what you need to do to satisfy each other's needs and what your individual needs really are.
It's true that you could break-up and end up with someone that makes you wonder why you put up with this shite for so long. It's also true that you could stick it out together, make it work and then be amazed at how much brighter and deeper things became once you had worked through that same shite.
Have you read The Five Love Languages? It's a great book, and it's given me a whole new perspective on my relationships (starting with: get busy loving the other person and then see what happens.) It's peppered with religious crap that isn't to my liking but I think that's probably par for the course with this kind of book.
Anyway, whatever you choose, best of luck and take care.
posted by HopStopDon'tShop at 8:46 AM on August 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
It seems that your partner thinks they got a taste of the good life due to the separation (which I gather was your idea, apologies if I'm wrong about that) and now thinks that their improvement will continue unabated if they're no longer tied down by you or, at least, less tied down by you. I agree with julthumbscrew that this ain't necessarily so, and you should probably point that out.
In any event, what I'm writing to say is simply that I see a lot of other posters projecting their own experience onto your post (and, in the case of good day merlock, in a very kind and thoughtful way) and yet it's hard for us to actually figure out exactly what is going on here. This could very easily just be the 7 year itch and it might just be time for both of you to figure out what you need to do to satisfy each other's needs and what your individual needs really are.
It's true that you could break-up and end up with someone that makes you wonder why you put up with this shite for so long. It's also true that you could stick it out together, make it work and then be amazed at how much brighter and deeper things became once you had worked through that same shite.
Have you read The Five Love Languages? It's a great book, and it's given me a whole new perspective on my relationships (starting with: get busy loving the other person and then see what happens.) It's peppered with religious crap that isn't to my liking but I think that's probably par for the course with this kind of book.
Anyway, whatever you choose, best of luck and take care.
posted by HopStopDon'tShop at 8:46 AM on August 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
You've been in a relationship with this person for six years. It's not likely to end tomorrow or out of nowhere. It sounds like this person doesn't know what they're thinking. It's not fair, but that's them. You have to decide if you're okay with it, or if your needs are different. It sounds like you two aren't connecting at the moment, but it's not impossible that that can change.
okokok says it better than I do.
posted by anniecat at 9:12 AM on August 2, 2010
okokok says it better than I do.
posted by anniecat at 9:12 AM on August 2, 2010
Yeah, on re-reading the post I do think I'm injecting too much of my own experience with two lovely women I knew who, over the course of many years, became utterly weird in situations that this post just reminded me of. Sorry.
I still think this sounds like a bad situation, and that it's normal for you to be having a hard time. It's particularly bad that when you articulated your needs and explicitly asked your partner for more affection, they basically turned you down instead of making an effort; that they won't read your book; that they won't accompany you to counselling.
It seems like you know what you want from the other person and all that's left to figure out is a) if you'll ever get it and b) whether you can go without it if you don't. Obviously you can't just go around throwing relationships away, and it would be great if you both could make this work. But don't think it's up to you alone to do it, and don't think you shouldn't leave if you want to, just because the other person hasn't definitively decided they're done. It just seems like you're worrying so much about working out what your partner's feelings are - asking if they love you, if they want you to move out - when your feelings are just as valid a basis for deciding whether to continue the relationship.
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 10:23 AM on August 2, 2010
I still think this sounds like a bad situation, and that it's normal for you to be having a hard time. It's particularly bad that when you articulated your needs and explicitly asked your partner for more affection, they basically turned you down instead of making an effort; that they won't read your book; that they won't accompany you to counselling.
It seems like you know what you want from the other person and all that's left to figure out is a) if you'll ever get it and b) whether you can go without it if you don't. Obviously you can't just go around throwing relationships away, and it would be great if you both could make this work. But don't think it's up to you alone to do it, and don't think you shouldn't leave if you want to, just because the other person hasn't definitively decided they're done. It just seems like you're worrying so much about working out what your partner's feelings are - asking if they love you, if they want you to move out - when your feelings are just as valid a basis for deciding whether to continue the relationship.
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 10:23 AM on August 2, 2010
I decided it was time for you to go after reading your first paragraph. I won't say DTMFA because it doesn't sound like your partner is a MF. It's not like anything is wrong in the relationship, it's the relationship that's not right.
It doesn't take two people to end a relationship. Your partner doesn't (shouldn't) have that kind of control. Don't take no for an answer when you do break up. A clean break will probably be a lot better then a messy one ... and eventually yours will be messier down the road.
posted by lester's sock puppet at 10:28 AM on August 2, 2010
It doesn't take two people to end a relationship. Your partner doesn't (shouldn't) have that kind of control. Don't take no for an answer when you do break up. A clean break will probably be a lot better then a messy one ... and eventually yours will be messier down the road.
posted by lester's sock puppet at 10:28 AM on August 2, 2010
I don't know the answers to your other questions, but I will say:
I have a copy of the book "Too Good To Leave, Too Bad To Stay," and my partner keeps saying they want to read it but doesn't.
My partner refuses to break up with me, though. I've asked point-blank if they just want me to move out. Their answer last time was no, but they're still ambivalent about the long term ..... My partner seems unusually comfortable with being in limbo with our relationship, and continuing to be with me without attending to their feelings of ambivalence.
It sounds to me like the relationship you have now is exactly the kind of relationship your SO wants right now, and that's why they don't want to read relationship books or break up with you.
It sounds to me like your partner is not showing you more affection because they don't want to show you more affection, and your partner wants to remain in limbo because they like the freedom that gives them, when they can say they never promised you anything, but yet they can continue to enjoy the benefits of being in a relationship with you. My 2 cents.
posted by Ashley801 at 11:26 AM on August 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
I have a copy of the book "Too Good To Leave, Too Bad To Stay," and my partner keeps saying they want to read it but doesn't.
My partner refuses to break up with me, though. I've asked point-blank if they just want me to move out. Their answer last time was no, but they're still ambivalent about the long term ..... My partner seems unusually comfortable with being in limbo with our relationship, and continuing to be with me without attending to their feelings of ambivalence.
It sounds to me like the relationship you have now is exactly the kind of relationship your SO wants right now, and that's why they don't want to read relationship books or break up with you.
It sounds to me like your partner is not showing you more affection because they don't want to show you more affection, and your partner wants to remain in limbo because they like the freedom that gives them, when they can say they never promised you anything, but yet they can continue to enjoy the benefits of being in a relationship with you. My 2 cents.
posted by Ashley801 at 11:26 AM on August 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
Stop giving your partner opportunities to break up with you, and stop thinking about 30 years in the future. Both of these things are wastes of time and energy.
Instead, sit down and figure out what you want out of the relationship, and make an honest assessment about whether you're getting those things. Then, look one year in the future and ask yourself: in a year, will I be happier with or without this person, if I'm still not getting these things out of the relationship?
After you have those answers, go to your partner and say "Hey, you're right, asking you whether we'll be together in 30 years is foolish, not just because it's so far away, but because I have no right to put that pressure on you. So now I'm going to talk about me, and what I need, because I don't think I'm getting it. [Lay out, briefly and specifically, the things you feel you need and are not getting.] I'd like to have these things in this relationship, or I'd like to have the opportunity to find them in another relationship -- either of those is better than where we are now. Do you feel like you're willing to work on these things with me for the next year, or no?"
Will that possibly drive a break-up? Sure, but it's for active, solid reasons, not waiting around for them to break up with you while things fizzle. You're being up front about what you need, and letting your partner know you expect them to work with you on the relationship, or you're going to move on. That's a much better position to be in, frankly.
posted by davejay at 11:30 AM on August 2, 2010 [6 favorites]
Instead, sit down and figure out what you want out of the relationship, and make an honest assessment about whether you're getting those things. Then, look one year in the future and ask yourself: in a year, will I be happier with or without this person, if I'm still not getting these things out of the relationship?
After you have those answers, go to your partner and say "Hey, you're right, asking you whether we'll be together in 30 years is foolish, not just because it's so far away, but because I have no right to put that pressure on you. So now I'm going to talk about me, and what I need, because I don't think I'm getting it. [Lay out, briefly and specifically, the things you feel you need and are not getting.] I'd like to have these things in this relationship, or I'd like to have the opportunity to find them in another relationship -- either of those is better than where we are now. Do you feel like you're willing to work on these things with me for the next year, or no?"
Will that possibly drive a break-up? Sure, but it's for active, solid reasons, not waiting around for them to break up with you while things fizzle. You're being up front about what you need, and letting your partner know you expect them to work with you on the relationship, or you're going to move on. That's a much better position to be in, frankly.
posted by davejay at 11:30 AM on August 2, 2010 [6 favorites]
I think people assume that the boundaries between "we" issues and "me" issues are clearer and more distinct than they really are. My guess is that all of this business of being a loner, focusing on building a career, not reading your book, withdrawing affection, finding their true self, not going to couples counseling etc. is your partner's way of saying that the lines between "we" and "me" have become intolerably porous. They need to step away from your relationship in order to shore up their "me". They need to make it sturdier, they don't think they can do this in the context of a relationship. They're probably right.
You, on the other hand, aren't as concerned with the sovereignty of "you", so naturally you're more inclined to want to grapple with this problem together. For you this is a relationship issue that should be addressed within the context of your relationship. You're probably right.
That's the rub. You're partner's issue really is a "me" one, yet it's the kind of "me" crisis that usually emerges from the ecology of "we."
There is no such thing as a couple whose wants, needs, desires, goals, and sensibilities are exactly matched to each other. I and Thou are a dance. It takes time, experience and practice to learn that dance. Your partner may simply need to cook longer before they're able to.
posted by space_cookie at 1:04 PM on August 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
You, on the other hand, aren't as concerned with the sovereignty of "you", so naturally you're more inclined to want to grapple with this problem together. For you this is a relationship issue that should be addressed within the context of your relationship. You're probably right.
That's the rub. You're partner's issue really is a "me" one, yet it's the kind of "me" crisis that usually emerges from the ecology of "we."
There is no such thing as a couple whose wants, needs, desires, goals, and sensibilities are exactly matched to each other. I and Thou are a dance. It takes time, experience and practice to learn that dance. Your partner may simply need to cook longer before they're able to.
posted by space_cookie at 1:04 PM on August 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
Ragged Richard: This is one of the most important things I've learned from my own experiences and from watching my friends' experiences over the past five years or so: people who are confused and ambivalent and don't know what they want may not be bad people, in fact they usually aren't, but they will hurt you just as much as bad people will.
Seriously, as far as I can tell, being in a relationship with someone who can never make up their mind about the relationship is functionally identical to dating a mind-game-playing asshole, even though the person may be perfectly nice. I say this as someone who's been on both sides; the relationship I was most unsure about is also the relationship where I'm least happy with the way I behaved.
So I think it's time to go. Once you find someone who doesn't have this problem, you'll be amazed at what you once thought you had to put up with.
My advice: Read this over and over and over and over again until it becomes part of your internal monologue. I know I will.
posted by l33tpolicywonk at 1:22 PM on August 2, 2010
Seriously, as far as I can tell, being in a relationship with someone who can never make up their mind about the relationship is functionally identical to dating a mind-game-playing asshole, even though the person may be perfectly nice. I say this as someone who's been on both sides; the relationship I was most unsure about is also the relationship where I'm least happy with the way I behaved.
So I think it's time to go. Once you find someone who doesn't have this problem, you'll be amazed at what you once thought you had to put up with.
My advice: Read this over and over and over and over again until it becomes part of your internal monologue. I know I will.
posted by l33tpolicywonk at 1:22 PM on August 2, 2010
My SO and I went through a 2-3 year on and off slump in our 11 year relationship. Neither wanted to do the breaking up, and we both had unhappy stuff going on in our separate lives.
All I can say is that once we figured out our individual issues, suddenly being together was much more fun. A lot of the Mefites here don't have that endurance level, and that's totally fine. My gut also says to walk away, somehow. We just happened to stick it out and now were are really quite happy. And most of that is to do with us being happy as individuals. I only mention my situation because it's an example of when sticking it out works. But we are low drama people. I feel pretty certain that if we had broken up things would have turned out equally fine, but I am pragmatic when it comes to relationships and don't believe in there being a One.
Just an alternative viewpoint.
posted by scuza at 7:24 PM on August 2, 2010
All I can say is that once we figured out our individual issues, suddenly being together was much more fun. A lot of the Mefites here don't have that endurance level, and that's totally fine. My gut also says to walk away, somehow. We just happened to stick it out and now were are really quite happy. And most of that is to do with us being happy as individuals. I only mention my situation because it's an example of when sticking it out works. But we are low drama people. I feel pretty certain that if we had broken up things would have turned out equally fine, but I am pragmatic when it comes to relationships and don't believe in there being a One.
Just an alternative viewpoint.
posted by scuza at 7:24 PM on August 2, 2010
I would say, if you're looking for a lifelong committed relationship and you haven't established that your current relationship is one (after six years) it's time for you to move on because there is someone out there who is willing to make that commitment, and that person is as wonderful as or more than your current partner.
If lacking commitment doesn't bother you, then stay if you're happy. It's hard work to find another person. If your needs are being fulfilled then it's fine and the relationship will end when it's ready.
I guess I'm saying to figure out what you want from the relationship and whether you're getting everything you want. Because if you're not, there's a bunch of people out there, and it's usually worth it to try and get what you want.
posted by thebeagle at 2:00 PM on August 4, 2010
If lacking commitment doesn't bother you, then stay if you're happy. It's hard work to find another person. If your needs are being fulfilled then it's fine and the relationship will end when it's ready.
I guess I'm saying to figure out what you want from the relationship and whether you're getting everything you want. Because if you're not, there's a bunch of people out there, and it's usually worth it to try and get what you want.
posted by thebeagle at 2:00 PM on August 4, 2010
Hi Anonymous,
I see this post is a few months old, and wondered how things ended up? Are they still continuing in the same fashion? Your story reminds me of a situation with a friend of mine, which started back in August also. Forgive the long response - if you even see it, but your question rang a few alarm bells and I was compelled to write a response.
I'm with Nixy on the whole "Love can't be earned. You must not be very experienced in relationships yourself. Love is not something you get by meeting requirements of niceness and goodness. It's mysterious, crazy, and has nothing to do with "not doing bad things."
To be honest, in my experience, my advice is get out. Your post centers a lot on how you feel, and that says a lot. It seems you do not have an awful lot to go on in terms of how your partner feels - other than the tidbits of information they give you. You say you tried a brief separation and that it made you see how much your partner means to you - but by the sounds of it it hasn't really made much difference to their overall attitude.
I have a friend who is mad in love with someone and has been for the past three years - but to date he has procrastinated committing to this person because he was already in long-term relationship when they met, with shared property etc - which is all an excuse as we all know really, because from what I understand, the person he cohabits with is quite 'comfortable' in terms of wealth, he is quite insecure as a person, and as a result is biding time/living ambivalently in a relationship which sounds a little like yours. The person they cohabit with is not the person they see themselves with ultimately, but the lifestyle is quite set and secure, and in all this he is just making sure that the person he is really in love with is going to be there for the long run. Sure it sucks, yes it's selfish and yes, he should be honest with the woman he is living with and ask her to move out. He has tried to break up with her on numerous occasions but it seems that every time he does she somehow manages to make him question his own gut instincts to the point where he deliberates - and then deliberates some more. Add to that that despite his lack of real love for her she is to all intents and purposes a "good person" who does nothing but try her best to make him love her, just makes it extremely difficult for him to face letting her down.
It just struck a chord with me because you talk of how you champion his independence and his goals in life, because it reminds me a lot of the above situation, in that the woman he has been living with for the past six years is not someone he met and fell in love with. Sorry to say it but it just sounds so similar to your situation - when they moved in together he (his words) "just sorta went along with it" - and with your partner saying that when you two got together he wasn't in a good place to make such life decisions as being in a long-term relationship it sounds to me as though the honeymoon period didn't get off to such a great start as maybe you thought or were at the time led to believe.
This friend also, like your partner, was in not such a great place career-wise, in that they had extremely promising career prospects that took a downturn, and nowadays he is working constantly in an effort to up his status to what he thinks it should be. So the fact that you make a statement of 'championing' your partner indicates that you are trying to nurture someone who is obviously not reciprocating your efforts. When someone is really interested in you and is really into you they can't help but support you in this loving way. It sounds to me as if this person's head and heart are elsewhere, as you say it is a year since your partner expressed their ambivalence regarding your relationship. A whole year says a lot - this person's heart is not in it. Think about it.
I also thought your sentence about your partner's "independence is awesome" and it "makes you love them more" a little incongruent with your initial concern. It is a post littered with positive statements and it gives the impression somebody here is trying a little too hard to please. Yet that someone is you - and you are/were attending counselling sessions - the fact that you wanted these to become couples counselling indicates the cause for you to seek counselling is down to issues either in the relationship, or issues that you would like to share with your partner. They don't seem to want to share an awful lot with you - I hope it has improved since then; I can only base my response on what I have seen happening in my friend's life.
What I see in my friend's situation is that the woman he is with will do anything but admit - or maybe it's just that she can't see - that in a relationship there has to be more than just 'good behaviour' to earn brownie points and that even though long-term relationships tend to cool off the whole 'honeymoon period' thing that affection and sex don't just die completely. You say you would like more affection and that you have asked if it is anything you have done wrong. If your partner is a man, I would like to point out a basic fact that (if you are a woman) some women tend to overlook when they love a man: men don't tend to withhold affection as a response to 'bad behaviour'. Men are naturally tactile - some more so than others - but certainly in my friend's case, he is not attracted to the woman he is dragging out the relationship with and he says he has no desire for her. Chemistry is either there or it isn't - and milling along in ambivalence is not going to generate it.
As I started with quoting Nixy - love is a crazy and mysterious thing, and it doesn't sound as if you are very experienced in love. Either that or you are just not the kind of person who feels love in this way. But just because you don't, don't assume your partner doesn't - it just doesn't sound as if he is feeling it for you.
You say your partner refuses to break up with you - but do they say why? You say at the beginning of your post that they say they still love you - but the truth is evidence to the contrary. When a person loves you, you feel it in your bones and see it in their day-to-day actions, and you don't need to ask. If I were you, I would find out. I wouldn't ask. I would move out until they can make up their mind. You being there is a continual disturbance to them ever making a real decision because there is no space and your partner sounds already like they have enough difficulty making up their mind. Add to that, if your partner's emotional detachment is actually due to the fact that there is a third party involved, well - again, there is only one way to really find out, and that ain't by asking I'm afraid! It's unlikely they will tell you the truth, if they have been hiding it since they first expressed ambivalence. And you really don't want to feel a fool when you discover that all that championing was for someone who was cheating on you!
Also, personally, I would find it a little humiliating to ask someone if they wanted me to move out. Because that would mean I was getting a feeling like they wanted me to. But as soon as you ask that, sometimes people will say the opposite to what they want for fear of hurting you, and for fear of the truth.
I think it's time you toughened up a little and listened to what your instincts are telling you. The only way you will ever know for sure is if you end it - don't be at the mercy of someone else who says they love you but remains ambivalent. Take control of the situation. Leave. If they really do love you, once you are gone they will come running after you and ask you to return. But if you keep asking and waiting more time will pass and even then you may never know, but meanwhile, all the counselling in the world will not compensate for the hard time you are having emotionally - and really, therapy to get you through a relationship isn't ideal or very normal. What with that and the manual it sounds as though there is no passion in this at all, other than your notions to first rebuild this man, and then the relationship. Sometimes, it just is what it is. It's not your job to fix it - stop waiting for your partner to leave you - it's so obvious they're waiting for you to get sick of it all and leave them. Yes it's the weak route, but you are being weaker still for denying everything that you see.
As jon1270 says:
I think it's pretty clearly time to let go. You're not in some boilerplate relationship with standard stages; you're in a particular relationship with a particular person. That relationship was apparently built around you supporting that person and helping them through some difficult stages of their life. You, no doubt, were getting something out of it too, but helping someone heal is not the basis of a lifelong sort of relationship. It's certainly something you do in the context of a lifelong partnership, but it's not the foundation upon which such partnerships are built. What you've got is a relationship with a natural endpoint, which you have reached.
Your partner has made it clear that they want to focus on their career, aren't inclined to be affectionate, don't want to go to counseling, and don't want to commit. You're not going to get what you want and need out of this relationship because your needs aren't now, and may never have been, one of this person's priorities.
You can stand on your own two feet, too, and you don't need your partner to force you to do it by dumping you; it's a choice you have every right to make on your own.
posted by jon1270 at 7:36 AM on August 2
posted by readbetweenthelines at 10:53 PM on December 11, 2010
I see this post is a few months old, and wondered how things ended up? Are they still continuing in the same fashion? Your story reminds me of a situation with a friend of mine, which started back in August also. Forgive the long response - if you even see it, but your question rang a few alarm bells and I was compelled to write a response.
I'm with Nixy on the whole "Love can't be earned. You must not be very experienced in relationships yourself. Love is not something you get by meeting requirements of niceness and goodness. It's mysterious, crazy, and has nothing to do with "not doing bad things."
To be honest, in my experience, my advice is get out. Your post centers a lot on how you feel, and that says a lot. It seems you do not have an awful lot to go on in terms of how your partner feels - other than the tidbits of information they give you. You say you tried a brief separation and that it made you see how much your partner means to you - but by the sounds of it it hasn't really made much difference to their overall attitude.
I have a friend who is mad in love with someone and has been for the past three years - but to date he has procrastinated committing to this person because he was already in long-term relationship when they met, with shared property etc - which is all an excuse as we all know really, because from what I understand, the person he cohabits with is quite 'comfortable' in terms of wealth, he is quite insecure as a person, and as a result is biding time/living ambivalently in a relationship which sounds a little like yours. The person they cohabit with is not the person they see themselves with ultimately, but the lifestyle is quite set and secure, and in all this he is just making sure that the person he is really in love with is going to be there for the long run. Sure it sucks, yes it's selfish and yes, he should be honest with the woman he is living with and ask her to move out. He has tried to break up with her on numerous occasions but it seems that every time he does she somehow manages to make him question his own gut instincts to the point where he deliberates - and then deliberates some more. Add to that that despite his lack of real love for her she is to all intents and purposes a "good person" who does nothing but try her best to make him love her, just makes it extremely difficult for him to face letting her down.
It just struck a chord with me because you talk of how you champion his independence and his goals in life, because it reminds me a lot of the above situation, in that the woman he has been living with for the past six years is not someone he met and fell in love with. Sorry to say it but it just sounds so similar to your situation - when they moved in together he (his words) "just sorta went along with it" - and with your partner saying that when you two got together he wasn't in a good place to make such life decisions as being in a long-term relationship it sounds to me as though the honeymoon period didn't get off to such a great start as maybe you thought or were at the time led to believe.
This friend also, like your partner, was in not such a great place career-wise, in that they had extremely promising career prospects that took a downturn, and nowadays he is working constantly in an effort to up his status to what he thinks it should be. So the fact that you make a statement of 'championing' your partner indicates that you are trying to nurture someone who is obviously not reciprocating your efforts. When someone is really interested in you and is really into you they can't help but support you in this loving way. It sounds to me as if this person's head and heart are elsewhere, as you say it is a year since your partner expressed their ambivalence regarding your relationship. A whole year says a lot - this person's heart is not in it. Think about it.
I also thought your sentence about your partner's "independence is awesome" and it "makes you love them more" a little incongruent with your initial concern. It is a post littered with positive statements and it gives the impression somebody here is trying a little too hard to please. Yet that someone is you - and you are/were attending counselling sessions - the fact that you wanted these to become couples counselling indicates the cause for you to seek counselling is down to issues either in the relationship, or issues that you would like to share with your partner. They don't seem to want to share an awful lot with you - I hope it has improved since then; I can only base my response on what I have seen happening in my friend's life.
What I see in my friend's situation is that the woman he is with will do anything but admit - or maybe it's just that she can't see - that in a relationship there has to be more than just 'good behaviour' to earn brownie points and that even though long-term relationships tend to cool off the whole 'honeymoon period' thing that affection and sex don't just die completely. You say you would like more affection and that you have asked if it is anything you have done wrong. If your partner is a man, I would like to point out a basic fact that (if you are a woman) some women tend to overlook when they love a man: men don't tend to withhold affection as a response to 'bad behaviour'. Men are naturally tactile - some more so than others - but certainly in my friend's case, he is not attracted to the woman he is dragging out the relationship with and he says he has no desire for her. Chemistry is either there or it isn't - and milling along in ambivalence is not going to generate it.
As I started with quoting Nixy - love is a crazy and mysterious thing, and it doesn't sound as if you are very experienced in love. Either that or you are just not the kind of person who feels love in this way. But just because you don't, don't assume your partner doesn't - it just doesn't sound as if he is feeling it for you.
You say your partner refuses to break up with you - but do they say why? You say at the beginning of your post that they say they still love you - but the truth is evidence to the contrary. When a person loves you, you feel it in your bones and see it in their day-to-day actions, and you don't need to ask. If I were you, I would find out. I wouldn't ask. I would move out until they can make up their mind. You being there is a continual disturbance to them ever making a real decision because there is no space and your partner sounds already like they have enough difficulty making up their mind. Add to that, if your partner's emotional detachment is actually due to the fact that there is a third party involved, well - again, there is only one way to really find out, and that ain't by asking I'm afraid! It's unlikely they will tell you the truth, if they have been hiding it since they first expressed ambivalence. And you really don't want to feel a fool when you discover that all that championing was for someone who was cheating on you!
Also, personally, I would find it a little humiliating to ask someone if they wanted me to move out. Because that would mean I was getting a feeling like they wanted me to. But as soon as you ask that, sometimes people will say the opposite to what they want for fear of hurting you, and for fear of the truth.
I think it's time you toughened up a little and listened to what your instincts are telling you. The only way you will ever know for sure is if you end it - don't be at the mercy of someone else who says they love you but remains ambivalent. Take control of the situation. Leave. If they really do love you, once you are gone they will come running after you and ask you to return. But if you keep asking and waiting more time will pass and even then you may never know, but meanwhile, all the counselling in the world will not compensate for the hard time you are having emotionally - and really, therapy to get you through a relationship isn't ideal or very normal. What with that and the manual it sounds as though there is no passion in this at all, other than your notions to first rebuild this man, and then the relationship. Sometimes, it just is what it is. It's not your job to fix it - stop waiting for your partner to leave you - it's so obvious they're waiting for you to get sick of it all and leave them. Yes it's the weak route, but you are being weaker still for denying everything that you see.
As jon1270 says:
I think it's pretty clearly time to let go. You're not in some boilerplate relationship with standard stages; you're in a particular relationship with a particular person. That relationship was apparently built around you supporting that person and helping them through some difficult stages of their life. You, no doubt, were getting something out of it too, but helping someone heal is not the basis of a lifelong sort of relationship. It's certainly something you do in the context of a lifelong partnership, but it's not the foundation upon which such partnerships are built. What you've got is a relationship with a natural endpoint, which you have reached.
Your partner has made it clear that they want to focus on their career, aren't inclined to be affectionate, don't want to go to counseling, and don't want to commit. You're not going to get what you want and need out of this relationship because your needs aren't now, and may never have been, one of this person's priorities.
You can stand on your own two feet, too, and you don't need your partner to force you to do it by dumping you; it's a choice you have every right to make on your own.
posted by jon1270 at 7:36 AM on August 2
posted by readbetweenthelines at 10:53 PM on December 11, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by inturnaround at 5:00 AM on August 2, 2010 [1 favorite]