Oh brother
July 29, 2010 2:30 PM Subscribe
I'm 32. I have much younger siblings. My mother and I fight constantly about what I consider to be her lenient approach to their teenage mis-steps. Help me find peace.
My sister and I were never disciplinary problems as teenagers. We did great in school, had jobs, didn't break the law, etc. When I was 18, my sister died and I was left with my 10 year old and infant brothers as siblings.
Since then, the older of the two boys (Dave) has spent his teenage years not caring about school (dropped out of high school), endangered himself and his friends by stealing cars and doing drugs, overdosed on my mother's prescription meds, etc. He's now 23 and has two children with an ex-stripper and gets evicted from his residence about every year. This behavior started in a much milder form when he was 13 or 14. He displayed inappropriate anger (breaking things) and disrespect to my mother (no father in the house). It escalated into full-on lack of care for anyone or anything. All the while, my mother did very little to curb him even when I went to her with serious concern. This caused a lot of heartache between her and I even though we are very close.
One example: Mom and I go to pick up Dave at a friend's house. He comes in the car and reeks of pot (he's 15). I say something. He makes up some ridiculous story about 'cannabis scented incense' that my mother buys. We fought and fought about it. It took court mandated probation and drug testing for my mother to become convinced that her son was doing drugs.
Fast forward to present day and no one is really close to Dave. He lives on his own and we're all very sad that he turned out the way he did.
My baby brother (Mike) is now 14. In general, he's very mild mannered and very different than his older brother Dave. He isn't in trouble at school and is very close to his family (including me). Last night, Mike lost his mind and went into an 'F-U' rage against my mother, unprovoked. He stormed out of the car, miles from home, screaming and ranting about the 'shit she puts him through' and how she can F-off. Mom and I were both in the car and equally shocked. I told her to let him walk home. She insisted on driving next to him, begging him to get in the car. When he finally did, she asked him how they could 'repair this situation'. All the while, I'm freaking out inside because I think he needs to be knocked into next week! His disrespect continued in the car until we got home ("don't talk to me", "I'm over you", "This is bullshit", etc). Mom called me this morning to tell me that they had made up and that all was well again. I bit my tongue but I really wanted to tell her that he needed some consequences for such behavior.
I know if I try to persuade Mom into being a little more strict it will create a fight and a rift between us. But at the same time, I feel like the clock is ticking on my one remaining sibling. I have sat Mom down and explained my serious concerns. She always agrees and is very understanding. The issue is that she is not really capable of disappointing her children or making them unhappy for any length of time. I fear this will lead to my brother not having any idea of real consequences in the real world.
Is it worth risking my relationship with my mother to try and influence the upbringing of my brother? Should I stay out of it and hope for the best?
My sister and I were never disciplinary problems as teenagers. We did great in school, had jobs, didn't break the law, etc. When I was 18, my sister died and I was left with my 10 year old and infant brothers as siblings.
Since then, the older of the two boys (Dave) has spent his teenage years not caring about school (dropped out of high school), endangered himself and his friends by stealing cars and doing drugs, overdosed on my mother's prescription meds, etc. He's now 23 and has two children with an ex-stripper and gets evicted from his residence about every year. This behavior started in a much milder form when he was 13 or 14. He displayed inappropriate anger (breaking things) and disrespect to my mother (no father in the house). It escalated into full-on lack of care for anyone or anything. All the while, my mother did very little to curb him even when I went to her with serious concern. This caused a lot of heartache between her and I even though we are very close.
One example: Mom and I go to pick up Dave at a friend's house. He comes in the car and reeks of pot (he's 15). I say something. He makes up some ridiculous story about 'cannabis scented incense' that my mother buys. We fought and fought about it. It took court mandated probation and drug testing for my mother to become convinced that her son was doing drugs.
Fast forward to present day and no one is really close to Dave. He lives on his own and we're all very sad that he turned out the way he did.
My baby brother (Mike) is now 14. In general, he's very mild mannered and very different than his older brother Dave. He isn't in trouble at school and is very close to his family (including me). Last night, Mike lost his mind and went into an 'F-U' rage against my mother, unprovoked. He stormed out of the car, miles from home, screaming and ranting about the 'shit she puts him through' and how she can F-off. Mom and I were both in the car and equally shocked. I told her to let him walk home. She insisted on driving next to him, begging him to get in the car. When he finally did, she asked him how they could 'repair this situation'. All the while, I'm freaking out inside because I think he needs to be knocked into next week! His disrespect continued in the car until we got home ("don't talk to me", "I'm over you", "This is bullshit", etc). Mom called me this morning to tell me that they had made up and that all was well again. I bit my tongue but I really wanted to tell her that he needed some consequences for such behavior.
I know if I try to persuade Mom into being a little more strict it will create a fight and a rift between us. But at the same time, I feel like the clock is ticking on my one remaining sibling. I have sat Mom down and explained my serious concerns. She always agrees and is very understanding. The issue is that she is not really capable of disappointing her children or making them unhappy for any length of time. I fear this will lead to my brother not having any idea of real consequences in the real world.
Is it worth risking my relationship with my mother to try and influence the upbringing of my brother? Should I stay out of it and hope for the best?
You say you are close with Mike, why not reach out to him and try to lead by example? 14 is a rough age, and it can really seem like the entire world (especially your parents, considering they are the people you live with and who impose rules) are all out to get you. Take him out to do things on the weekends and just hang out. Don't lecture him or talk down to him, just be a friend. You're not going to change your Mom or her parenting style. Presumably she was the same way when you and your sister were growing up and you said that you two turned out fine. You're being way too hard on someone who's had to raise five kids by herself over a very long period of time.
Is it worth risking my relationship with my mother to try and influence the upbringing of my brother? I don't see any reason why you can't influence your brother in positive ways without risking your relationship with your mother.
posted by a.steele at 2:39 PM on July 29, 2010
Is it worth risking my relationship with my mother to try and influence the upbringing of my brother? I don't see any reason why you can't influence your brother in positive ways without risking your relationship with your mother.
posted by a.steele at 2:39 PM on July 29, 2010
I'm sorry--four kids. And I didn't mean to presume that your mom has been single this whole time, you just said that there wasn't a father in the house when Dave was a teenager. My point is that you have a very good oppurtunity, being an older male relative, to be a great example to your younger brother of how to be a reasonable person. It'll only make things worse if he feels like you are trying to get him in trouble.
posted by a.steele at 2:43 PM on July 29, 2010
posted by a.steele at 2:43 PM on July 29, 2010
Memail me for details, because I am in a similar sort of situation, but the general response is: let it go. Do not be a parent, because it won't work. Be a sibling.
A freakout at your parent when you are 14 is normal, not a harbinger of total fuckupedness and disaster.
posted by jeather at 3:07 PM on July 29, 2010 [7 favorites]
A freakout at your parent when you are 14 is normal, not a harbinger of total fuckupedness and disaster.
posted by jeather at 3:07 PM on July 29, 2010 [7 favorites]
Of course your mother "always agrees and is very understanding." Same with the "making up and all was well again." She doesn't want to upset the apple cart and risk things spiraling out of control. (Never mind that she doesn't have control to begin with.)
Not knowing anything else about your family, I'd say that this could be an attempt to stay close with what family she has left by making sure that she never disagrees with them or makes them upset. It's not a great technique, but that's probably what she feels like she can do.
The other thing is that she's probably been in this situation for so long that what you might consider incredible disrespect is just normal for her. She's used to it, so it's no big deal; she knows that people will still be around tomorrow if she makes up with them and lets them do their thing.
And how about your younger brother? He sees that your mom can't get out of her situation, so maybe he feels a bit hopeless. The constant malleability can be so draining on someone who just wants to know what the rules are (even if he might not want to play by them all the time). Maybe that's where some of his rage is coming from. This seems like a good time for you to step in and have a heart-to-heart talk with him, in whatever way you can, letting him know that you're there and you can be a source of stability, even if your mom isn't. Don't pay any attention to how incredibly awkward this conversation might be, just DO IT.
I would deal directly with your brother from here on out. He's the one who can change. Your mom? Not so much. Set up good boundaries with your mom; show her that you love her, but don't play her game. If you don't, you're engaging in this dysfunctional cycle too.
Is there substance abuse in your family, or was there substance abuse with a former partner of your mom? (Aside from Dave, etc.) This is pretty common behavior for people who are dealing with family members or close friends exhibiting abusive behavior -- "don't get them mad, because then things will get awful and bad things will happen." If so, I'd strongly urge you to look into something like Alanon or similar.
posted by Madamina at 3:09 PM on July 29, 2010
Not knowing anything else about your family, I'd say that this could be an attempt to stay close with what family she has left by making sure that she never disagrees with them or makes them upset. It's not a great technique, but that's probably what she feels like she can do.
The other thing is that she's probably been in this situation for so long that what you might consider incredible disrespect is just normal for her. She's used to it, so it's no big deal; she knows that people will still be around tomorrow if she makes up with them and lets them do their thing.
And how about your younger brother? He sees that your mom can't get out of her situation, so maybe he feels a bit hopeless. The constant malleability can be so draining on someone who just wants to know what the rules are (even if he might not want to play by them all the time). Maybe that's where some of his rage is coming from. This seems like a good time for you to step in and have a heart-to-heart talk with him, in whatever way you can, letting him know that you're there and you can be a source of stability, even if your mom isn't. Don't pay any attention to how incredibly awkward this conversation might be, just DO IT.
I would deal directly with your brother from here on out. He's the one who can change. Your mom? Not so much. Set up good boundaries with your mom; show her that you love her, but don't play her game. If you don't, you're engaging in this dysfunctional cycle too.
Is there substance abuse in your family, or was there substance abuse with a former partner of your mom? (Aside from Dave, etc.) This is pretty common behavior for people who are dealing with family members or close friends exhibiting abusive behavior -- "don't get them mad, because then things will get awful and bad things will happen." If so, I'd strongly urge you to look into something like Alanon or similar.
posted by Madamina at 3:09 PM on July 29, 2010
You can't parent your siblings. You can't make your mum change her parenting style.
You can be an awesome and suppportive older brother, by developing your relationship with him directly as a peer, rather than going through your mum. That means not telling him what you think is wrong with his behaviour or attitue, but instead letting him tell you what's going on in his life. I think you want to aim for 'interested adult friend'.
posted by plonkee at 3:11 PM on July 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
You can be an awesome and suppportive older brother, by developing your relationship with him directly as a peer, rather than going through your mum. That means not telling him what you think is wrong with his behaviour or attitue, but instead letting him tell you what's going on in his life. I think you want to aim for 'interested adult friend'.
posted by plonkee at 3:11 PM on July 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
You could try out some phrases like "Seems like things are tough for you right now, huh?" or "You're really angry lately", or "What's up with you and Mom these days?" instead of "OMG disrespect!" and knocking people into next week.
Then shut up and listen.
posted by emilyw at 3:33 PM on July 29, 2010 [10 favorites]
Then shut up and listen.
posted by emilyw at 3:33 PM on July 29, 2010 [10 favorites]
Your brother is a screwup, and your deluding yourself that proper parenting is the answer. The only thing that's going to help, is if and when your brother matures.
Mom's aren't independent young men, they just don't DO IT. They have far too much self identity invested in the relationships with their kids to take drastic action, especially when they can't predict how a child would react.
Anyways, in about 12-15 years if your brother isn't in jail or dead he will finally get some self respect and mature a little. At that point hopefully he will apologize to his parents and you, and the reconciliation can happen.
posted by parallax7d at 3:36 PM on July 29, 2010
Mom's aren't independent young men, they just don't DO IT. They have far too much self identity invested in the relationships with their kids to take drastic action, especially when they can't predict how a child would react.
Anyways, in about 12-15 years if your brother isn't in jail or dead he will finally get some self respect and mature a little. At that point hopefully he will apologize to his parents and you, and the reconciliation can happen.
posted by parallax7d at 3:36 PM on July 29, 2010
Tough love has a very long track record of backfiring-- although everyone tells you that it is what you should do if your child uses drugs, there are many, many stories of it splitting families, preceding suicides (Kurt Cobain killed himself after an attempted intervention) and leading people's drug problems to get worse, not better.
Very little research is done directly comparing getting tough to being empathetic, but the research that compared the confrontational interventions like those on the TV show (and that used on Cobain) found the supportive approach twice as effective with little of the risk.
Most teenagers smoke pot and drink. Most outgrow it. If you make a huge deal of it and get into a power struggle with the teenager over it, you could wind up escalating and reinforcing the bad kid/addict identity that you want to avoid. I wrote recently about how an unfortunately large percentage of American drug treatment for teens does just this.
The best thing you can do as a brother is be there for him, warn him honestly about the risks (don't try scare stories that aren't based in reality: if you tell him that marijuana is often deadly, he won't believe you when you say the same about heroin) and be open.
Then, if he *does* get into trouble, he'll be able to come to you. Many addicts fear treatment because they know (correctly) that it is often punitive and demeaning. They also fear it because they feel like they can't survive emotionally without drugs. If you let them know that you will help them avoid demeaning treatment (and will believe them if they say they are being abused in treatment) and will work with them to find whatever works best to allow them to survive emotionally (this often means some psychiatric meds-- many people self medicate depression, for example) and that you don't want to control them or take away all sources of joy and purpose, you will be able to help.
Obviously, there are times when people will be manipulative and lie if they simply don't want to stop-- but decent providers know how to deal with this and it isn't by using force. If someone is hating particular treatment so badly that they are willing to create elaborate lies to get out of it, it's not working anyway.
posted by Maias at 3:39 PM on July 29, 2010 [2 favorites]
Very little research is done directly comparing getting tough to being empathetic, but the research that compared the confrontational interventions like those on the TV show (and that used on Cobain) found the supportive approach twice as effective with little of the risk.
Most teenagers smoke pot and drink. Most outgrow it. If you make a huge deal of it and get into a power struggle with the teenager over it, you could wind up escalating and reinforcing the bad kid/addict identity that you want to avoid. I wrote recently about how an unfortunately large percentage of American drug treatment for teens does just this.
The best thing you can do as a brother is be there for him, warn him honestly about the risks (don't try scare stories that aren't based in reality: if you tell him that marijuana is often deadly, he won't believe you when you say the same about heroin) and be open.
Then, if he *does* get into trouble, he'll be able to come to you. Many addicts fear treatment because they know (correctly) that it is often punitive and demeaning. They also fear it because they feel like they can't survive emotionally without drugs. If you let them know that you will help them avoid demeaning treatment (and will believe them if they say they are being abused in treatment) and will work with them to find whatever works best to allow them to survive emotionally (this often means some psychiatric meds-- many people self medicate depression, for example) and that you don't want to control them or take away all sources of joy and purpose, you will be able to help.
Obviously, there are times when people will be manipulative and lie if they simply don't want to stop-- but decent providers know how to deal with this and it isn't by using force. If someone is hating particular treatment so badly that they are willing to create elaborate lies to get out of it, it's not working anyway.
posted by Maias at 3:39 PM on July 29, 2010 [2 favorites]
Btw, there are definitely psychiatric disorders-- including depression in men-- that can manifest as intense rage starting in adolescence. It would be well advised for both your little brother and your "screw up" brother to get a full psychiatric evaluation from someone who is not affiliated with any kind of addiction treatment program, ideally an academic psychiatrist. It is amazing what the right kind of treatment can do if the problem is psychiatric-- but it may take a very, very long time to find the right drugs and/or therapy combination.
posted by Maias at 3:42 PM on July 29, 2010
posted by Maias at 3:42 PM on July 29, 2010
This is what I think you should do.
I think *YOU* should read this book with your youngest brother in mind.
Then, I think you should take the most relevant parts and ask your mom to just read them and discuss them with you. This book is about being in a relationship with a verbally abusive person, but I think it would apply very well to being the family member of a verbally abusive person/people. (I read it with an older female relative in mind.)
This main topic of this book is the answer to the question of why people act in relationships like it sounds your brothers do: breaking things (but your brothers have never broken their OWN, expensive things, right?), going on angry insulting rants, acting out of control, saying the *other* person is the one who's out of line ... your brother's behaviors sound like they were all taken straight out of this book; there's even an example in it of someone who did just what your brother did, stormed out of a car and insisted on walking home.
The answer is that: people act this way because they enjoy acting this way. They act this way because they are rewarded for acting this way. They do it specifically and deliberately so that everyone is focused on them and their feelings, so that nothing is ever asked of them, so that they can hold double standards, so that they can basically do whatever they want and have everyone kowtowing to them like it sounds your mother is.
I think your mother is still in the mindset of feeling guilty and sorry for your brothers. Thinking that they act this way because they were deprived in childhood, because they didn't have a father, because she didn't do enough for them, etc.
I think this book might change that. When you go into it thinking "this person just acts this way because they are hurt and damaged, and they can't help it, they are just broken" and slowly start realizing "they act this way deliberately because they enjoy it and like the power dynamic it creates for them" ... your mind starts shifting from feeling so sorry for them, to feeling like "oh no they di'int..."
posted by Ashley801 at 3:48 PM on July 29, 2010 [2 favorites]
I think *YOU* should read this book with your youngest brother in mind.
Then, I think you should take the most relevant parts and ask your mom to just read them and discuss them with you. This book is about being in a relationship with a verbally abusive person, but I think it would apply very well to being the family member of a verbally abusive person/people. (I read it with an older female relative in mind.)
This main topic of this book is the answer to the question of why people act in relationships like it sounds your brothers do: breaking things (but your brothers have never broken their OWN, expensive things, right?), going on angry insulting rants, acting out of control, saying the *other* person is the one who's out of line ... your brother's behaviors sound like they were all taken straight out of this book; there's even an example in it of someone who did just what your brother did, stormed out of a car and insisted on walking home.
The answer is that: people act this way because they enjoy acting this way. They act this way because they are rewarded for acting this way. They do it specifically and deliberately so that everyone is focused on them and their feelings, so that nothing is ever asked of them, so that they can hold double standards, so that they can basically do whatever they want and have everyone kowtowing to them like it sounds your mother is.
I think your mother is still in the mindset of feeling guilty and sorry for your brothers. Thinking that they act this way because they were deprived in childhood, because they didn't have a father, because she didn't do enough for them, etc.
I think this book might change that. When you go into it thinking "this person just acts this way because they are hurt and damaged, and they can't help it, they are just broken" and slowly start realizing "they act this way deliberately because they enjoy it and like the power dynamic it creates for them" ... your mind starts shifting from feeling so sorry for them, to feeling like "oh no they di'int..."
posted by Ashley801 at 3:48 PM on July 29, 2010 [2 favorites]
1 vote for 'stay out of it.'
posted by Cycloptichorn at 3:52 PM on July 29, 2010
posted by Cycloptichorn at 3:52 PM on July 29, 2010
I don't know if you'll ever be able to change your mothers parenting style - but I think this would be a good opportunity to tell your 14 year old brother that you have is back no matter what and that he can tell you anything and you promise you won't rat him out to mom . Let him know that if he's in a sketchy situation he can always call you for a ride and that he always has a place to crash if he needs to get away from home.
If he was in his 20s my advice may be different but when you're 14 it can mean the world to you to have a grown up who is on your side. Shit like trying to let him walk miles home when he jumps out of the car to throw a tantrum will only lead to more resentment.
posted by windbox at 4:10 PM on July 29, 2010
If he was in his 20s my advice may be different but when you're 14 it can mean the world to you to have a grown up who is on your side. Shit like trying to let him walk miles home when he jumps out of the car to throw a tantrum will only lead to more resentment.
posted by windbox at 4:10 PM on July 29, 2010
My younger sister is 10 years younger than me, and was raised largely by my very lenient mother, as Mom always had her back in any situation where Dad tried to set hard limits. My brother got pissed a number of times, and tried to step in as the Third Parent, which just made everyone more angry. My sister denied his role as a figure of authority in her life, and my parents felt like they didn't need someone else telling her what to do (they disagreed on what she should do well enough without help).
Good news: a few wrecked cars and a few scars later, she's getting an education and is serious about her future. Not all outbursts without recourse are precursors for a seedy future.
posted by filthy light thief at 4:24 PM on July 29, 2010
Good news: a few wrecked cars and a few scars later, she's getting an education and is serious about her future. Not all outbursts without recourse are precursors for a seedy future.
posted by filthy light thief at 4:24 PM on July 29, 2010
Sounds like you are too close to this. You are not your mother, you are not his parent. That business is their business. You could end up making a massive mess by getting involved in this. Of course you are perfectly entitled to express your concerns to your mother - but that is something you can do during a chat over a cup of tea and no one will end up losing contact with each other, even if it doesn't go the way you want.
Also, and this is not directed at you as such. I've learnt from my own experience that 30+ year olds often have enough experience to think they know best, but not enough experience to realise they don't. You may not be seeing the bigger picture. Even though your intentions are good, it may be best to hold off.
posted by Elmore at 4:24 PM on July 29, 2010
Also, and this is not directed at you as such. I've learnt from my own experience that 30+ year olds often have enough experience to think they know best, but not enough experience to realise they don't. You may not be seeing the bigger picture. Even though your intentions are good, it may be best to hold off.
posted by Elmore at 4:24 PM on July 29, 2010
Also, my role in my sisters life was (and still is) the caring ear. I don't support her decisions that I find worrisome, but I don't put myself at odds with my parents. I could have questioned her actions more, but she learned.
I think your best course of action for now would be to support and nudge, not push.
posted by filthy light thief at 4:26 PM on July 29, 2010
I think your best course of action for now would be to support and nudge, not push.
posted by filthy light thief at 4:26 PM on July 29, 2010
Maybe one thing you could do is write down what change you want to see most:
– Mike showing respect to his mother
– Mike not abusing drugs or alcohol
– Mike being respectful to you
– you being listened to by your mother
– your mother standing up for herself
Those are a few examples. What is most important to you here? Maybe if you focus on which one of those things (or something else) is THE most important thing then the other things will fall in line as well. If, on the other hand, you try and correct everything then you may get nowhere.
On another note, I think that your brother may indeed look at you as a father figure and so there may be a tonne of guidance you can give him in the years ahead if you're there for him. All the best.
posted by fantasticninety at 6:03 PM on July 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
– Mike showing respect to his mother
– Mike not abusing drugs or alcohol
– Mike being respectful to you
– you being listened to by your mother
– your mother standing up for herself
Those are a few examples. What is most important to you here? Maybe if you focus on which one of those things (or something else) is THE most important thing then the other things will fall in line as well. If, on the other hand, you try and correct everything then you may get nowhere.
On another note, I think that your brother may indeed look at you as a father figure and so there may be a tonne of guidance you can give him in the years ahead if you're there for him. All the best.
posted by fantasticninety at 6:03 PM on July 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
Is it worth risking my relationship with my mother to try and influence the upbringing of my brother? Should I stay out of it and hope for the best?
Yes, you are not the parent. That is your mother's job and she's made it clear that your input isn't wanted.
However, you are a sibling. You can always approach your siblings from that perspective. Be supportive as best you can - the teen years can be a very rough time.
Also, don't write Dave off just yet. It can take some people longer to grow up.
posted by deborah at 6:17 PM on July 29, 2010
Yes, you are not the parent. That is your mother's job and she's made it clear that your input isn't wanted.
However, you are a sibling. You can always approach your siblings from that perspective. Be supportive as best you can - the teen years can be a very rough time.
Also, don't write Dave off just yet. It can take some people longer to grow up.
posted by deborah at 6:17 PM on July 29, 2010
I have read the book Ashley801 links to and do not think that that is an appropriate book recommendation for somebody dealing with a fourteen-year-old boy. It is ridiculous to posit that unhappy teen-agers are being unhappy because they are "rewarded," etc. The book is about abusive MEN.
Did you try to find out what the "shit she puts him through" referred to? Perhaps it is some bit of nonsense about telling him he had to buy bus tickets out of his allowance from now on, or perhaps your mother is less than perfect. No partner, lost a child? That's not an easy life and it seems a stretch to imagine that she doesn't have her own private stresses, some of which may be directed towards Mike from time to time. Perhaps your energies are best directed towards trying to function as a neutral mediator for the sort of bus-ticket-type disputes that arise in any family with teen-agers.
But. You sound like a crappy brother. Dave is a write-off, not a "We don't have a lot in common but we do go fishing together with his kids" member of your family -- are you doing any uncling at all for these children when you're not snarking on their mother? That is not respectable stuff, writing off a brother at the tender age of 23 for what sounds like pretty benign black-sheep stuff -- pot, how dreadful! All disappointed in him, etc etc. It also seems unlikely that your disdain for Dave is lost on Mike.
And here you are blithering on about "disrespect" and "consequences" and knocking into next week, not "How can I reach out and be a good brother? How can I regain his respect?" No wonder Mike's "over you." Do you want to help him, or do you want to punish him? It sounds like you are all about the latter, and even if that were a useful idea (it is not) that is not your place, at all.
Speculation: Are you angry over any of the family history? No Dad, dead sister -- I have three younger siblings and I can't even imagine your pain there, I am deeply sorry -- you have stuff to be unhappy about. Perhaps you are directing your anger towards Mike, perhaps your mother is not as perfect a parent as you wish she was. Find out, in non-confrontational fashion, what the "shit" is.
posted by kmennie at 7:08 PM on July 29, 2010 [4 favorites]
Did you try to find out what the "shit she puts him through" referred to? Perhaps it is some bit of nonsense about telling him he had to buy bus tickets out of his allowance from now on, or perhaps your mother is less than perfect. No partner, lost a child? That's not an easy life and it seems a stretch to imagine that she doesn't have her own private stresses, some of which may be directed towards Mike from time to time. Perhaps your energies are best directed towards trying to function as a neutral mediator for the sort of bus-ticket-type disputes that arise in any family with teen-agers.
But. You sound like a crappy brother. Dave is a write-off, not a "We don't have a lot in common but we do go fishing together with his kids" member of your family -- are you doing any uncling at all for these children when you're not snarking on their mother? That is not respectable stuff, writing off a brother at the tender age of 23 for what sounds like pretty benign black-sheep stuff -- pot, how dreadful! All disappointed in him, etc etc. It also seems unlikely that your disdain for Dave is lost on Mike.
And here you are blithering on about "disrespect" and "consequences" and knocking into next week, not "How can I reach out and be a good brother? How can I regain his respect?" No wonder Mike's "over you." Do you want to help him, or do you want to punish him? It sounds like you are all about the latter, and even if that were a useful idea (it is not) that is not your place, at all.
Speculation: Are you angry over any of the family history? No Dad, dead sister -- I have three younger siblings and I can't even imagine your pain there, I am deeply sorry -- you have stuff to be unhappy about. Perhaps you are directing your anger towards Mike, perhaps your mother is not as perfect a parent as you wish she was. Find out, in non-confrontational fashion, what the "shit" is.
posted by kmennie at 7:08 PM on July 29, 2010 [4 favorites]
However much you fight, do you really think you can *change* your mother?
You can't. You can't force change on someone else, and the more you try, the more they resist. No, it is absolutely not worth damaging your relationship with your mother in order to attempt the impossible.
All you can change is you. You can be a source of support for your mother, a source of support for your brother, a friend to either or both. Just don't let them put you in a position where you're hearing rotten things about one from the other, and agreeing or even saying further rotten things yourself. If you do that, it WILL get back to the other and you'll probably end up without the trust of either. Getting between two people who are having friction is not a good place to be for future stability in the relationships. Supportive to both can be okay, gossipy about either is getting into rocky territory.
~ ~ ~
It sounds like you may not, in fact, know as much about your mom's relationship with your youngest brother as you think you do. I mean, sure, maybe he's just "being a teen," and if so, it's not the end of the world (and trying to make it so will not make him not be a teenager anymore). Friction between teens and parents is not exactly unusual; if you were "never a problem," well, then you're unusual--and your brothers are NOT you, and they will not BE you, and nothing you or your mom does can make them into you.
Maybe there's something your brother really thinks is wrong, and you're in the dark about it. If you were, say, offering him a supportive ear, maybe you could find out if he's really got a problem. Or if he has a problem that he's blowing out of proportion, maybe you could *gently* offer some perspective (without being judgey; after all, he's a kid and doesn't have much of his own perspective yet). Kids--all people--have a right to their feelings, and feelings don't come out of nowhere. His may be a little immature, as in "he hasn't really seen enough yet to know serious tragedy and serious pain, and is magnifying things"...or hey, he might have a point.
posted by galadriel at 7:45 PM on July 29, 2010
You can't. You can't force change on someone else, and the more you try, the more they resist. No, it is absolutely not worth damaging your relationship with your mother in order to attempt the impossible.
All you can change is you. You can be a source of support for your mother, a source of support for your brother, a friend to either or both. Just don't let them put you in a position where you're hearing rotten things about one from the other, and agreeing or even saying further rotten things yourself. If you do that, it WILL get back to the other and you'll probably end up without the trust of either. Getting between two people who are having friction is not a good place to be for future stability in the relationships. Supportive to both can be okay, gossipy about either is getting into rocky territory.
~ ~ ~
It sounds like you may not, in fact, know as much about your mom's relationship with your youngest brother as you think you do. I mean, sure, maybe he's just "being a teen," and if so, it's not the end of the world (and trying to make it so will not make him not be a teenager anymore). Friction between teens and parents is not exactly unusual; if you were "never a problem," well, then you're unusual--and your brothers are NOT you, and they will not BE you, and nothing you or your mom does can make them into you.
Maybe there's something your brother really thinks is wrong, and you're in the dark about it. If you were, say, offering him a supportive ear, maybe you could find out if he's really got a problem. Or if he has a problem that he's blowing out of proportion, maybe you could *gently* offer some perspective (without being judgey; after all, he's a kid and doesn't have much of his own perspective yet). Kids--all people--have a right to their feelings, and feelings don't come out of nowhere. His may be a little immature, as in "he hasn't really seen enough yet to know serious tragedy and serious pain, and is magnifying things"...or hey, he might have a point.
posted by galadriel at 7:45 PM on July 29, 2010
A) I dropped numerous crazed f-bombs at my mom when I was 14 (make that 14-17) and I was otherwise a real good kid. My mom just drove me off the deep end sometimes...and it was a really confusing (not to mention hormonal) age. I also smoked pot when I was 15. I have now made it to 24 with no children, no criminal record, no drugs, in fact, I turned out pretty good, if I don't say so myself.
B) I think my mom maybe took more of your approach to disciplining me and it only drove me farther away from her. We are still not close, we do not have a good relationship. When I went to college I began by going to school in a program that had a few of my moms in it, people who seemed to be waiting for me to fuck up. Slap you on the wrist types. Then I changed programs and I was absolutely shocked at the positivity. People were expecting me to be awesome! They believed in me, no questions asked. They weren't telling me all the things I had to do perfectly in order to come out all right. They just believed in me and knew I'd figure it out one way or another, even if I stumbled along the way. This attitude absolutely changed me...that's what I'd been wanting for so long.
Anyway, I'm sure these situations are not quite the same, but I would seriously caution about the hard discipline approach, especially as the brother. Instead, I would suggest that you approach him like you trust he'll find the "right" path. You can still disapprove of his actions, but just treat him like the good kid you know he is...not a potential Dave v2.
Anyway, if he's freaking out that badly, disciplining won't do any good. He's trying to tell ya'll something. He's freaking out inside and getting in trouble won't make that go away.
posted by hannahelastic at 8:17 PM on July 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
B) I think my mom maybe took more of your approach to disciplining me and it only drove me farther away from her. We are still not close, we do not have a good relationship. When I went to college I began by going to school in a program that had a few of my moms in it, people who seemed to be waiting for me to fuck up. Slap you on the wrist types. Then I changed programs and I was absolutely shocked at the positivity. People were expecting me to be awesome! They believed in me, no questions asked. They weren't telling me all the things I had to do perfectly in order to come out all right. They just believed in me and knew I'd figure it out one way or another, even if I stumbled along the way. This attitude absolutely changed me...that's what I'd been wanting for so long.
Anyway, I'm sure these situations are not quite the same, but I would seriously caution about the hard discipline approach, especially as the brother. Instead, I would suggest that you approach him like you trust he'll find the "right" path. You can still disapprove of his actions, but just treat him like the good kid you know he is...not a potential Dave v2.
Anyway, if he's freaking out that badly, disciplining won't do any good. He's trying to tell ya'll something. He's freaking out inside and getting in trouble won't make that go away.
posted by hannahelastic at 8:17 PM on July 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
I have read the book Ashley801 links to and do not think that that is an appropriate book recommendation for somebody dealing with a fourteen-year-old boy. It is ridiculous to posit that unhappy teen-agers are being unhappy because they are "rewarded," etc. The book is about abusive MEN.
It would be interesting to know whether the older brother Dave has repeated this behavior with the mother of his children or his other girlfriends.
posted by Ashley801 at 11:03 PM on July 29, 2010
It would be interesting to know whether the older brother Dave has repeated this behavior with the mother of his children or his other girlfriends.
posted by Ashley801 at 11:03 PM on July 29, 2010
Don't fight with your mother about this. Reach out to your brother, let him know you're around if he needs you. Check in with him once in a while to see how he's doing. In short, develop your own relationship with him, and stop trying to do it through your mother by proxy (which sounds harsh, but face it -- if you're fighting with your mother about how she treats your brother, then you're undermining her authority in his eyes, and by your own admission you already don't think she is enough of an authority figure in his eyes.)
Also, my sisters (both older) thought I was out of my damn mind when I was younger, and by comparison I probably was. I did what I wanted, I moved out first despite being youngest, and I got in some trouble. Yet, here I am, almost 40 and far more successful and stable than my sisters. So help provide a stable familial relationship for him, by not arguing with your mother and by forming your own relationship with him that doesn't involve you trying to control or criticize his life/the way he treats his mother.
posted by davejay at 12:19 AM on July 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
Also, my sisters (both older) thought I was out of my damn mind when I was younger, and by comparison I probably was. I did what I wanted, I moved out first despite being youngest, and I got in some trouble. Yet, here I am, almost 40 and far more successful and stable than my sisters. So help provide a stable familial relationship for him, by not arguing with your mother and by forming your own relationship with him that doesn't involve you trying to control or criticize his life/the way he treats his mother.
posted by davejay at 12:19 AM on July 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
I'm a bit late posting here, but I wanted to say that it sounds like your mom is getting shit from everyone, including you. No wonder she's feeling defensive. Your conversations with your mom sound like a more grown up version of telling her how awful she is.
Try to be your mom's ally, and be a brother, not a parent. Also, your mom has a very tough situation. Be kind to her.
posted by bluedaisy at 3:31 PM on July 31, 2010
Try to be your mom's ally, and be a brother, not a parent. Also, your mom has a very tough situation. Be kind to her.
posted by bluedaisy at 3:31 PM on July 31, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
Difficult teens often grow up to become perfectly OK adults, but if you load them down with guilt and a criminal record it isn't going to help. I say let your mom alone.
posted by zadcat at 2:36 PM on July 29, 2010 [2 favorites]