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What do I do with a wounded animal in the road?
July 22, 2010 6:20 PM   Subscribe

As an 18 year vegetarian who can't stomach ever hurting an animal, what do I do when a car ahead of me hits an animal, and as I pass, I can see it's obviously suffering?

I'm a huge animal rights person and haven't eaten meat or fish for > .5 of my life. I've never consciously hurt an animal, and I don't expect that to change.

However, I do think that killing an animal who is definitely grievously wounded is merciful and in line with my beliefs. It's not something I really want to do, of course, but I'm finding myself haunted by a particularly grisly 2 weeks of experiencing animals very recently hit by cars, still alive but very badly wounded and writhing in the road.

In this situation, what do I do? Last week, I was directly behind a dump truck that hit a very small fawn, and sent it tumbling end over end, and I could hear it screaming as I drove by. I pulled over, but I didn't know what else to do besides call the police. The intervening 1.5 hours before an animal control person arrived were very obviously incredibly painful and a world of suffering for the poor thing. And this was only the worst event, there have been 4 others in 10 days.

I've read through the responses to this question, but in my area, the roads are not very heavily trafficked, and most times the animal is a deer, which would do some fairly large damage my low-to-the-road economy car, so "euthanasia via Japanese auto industry product" is pretty much right out of the question.

I always have a bag with 3 or 4 good-sized knives (as well as many other tools, but these seem relevant) on me, for work. The gun laws in my state are pretty prohibitive, and I have to cross into a very restrictive city, also for work, so shooting it would be right out. What are my options? Do I just call the police/animal control and drive away? Or is there a humane way to dispatch these poor things? I can't imagine ever killing something, but I feel like letting it suffer so intensely is infinitely worse.
posted by nevercalm to Pets & Animals (38 answers total) 9 users marked this as a favorite
 
If it is small enough to transport, find out (ahead of time) where your nearest emergency vet clinic is. They see these things often and will take care of whatever it is you bring in, whether it is to help it, or to put it down.

If it's bigger than you are willing to transport, call animal control and let them know. Unless you are carrying euthanasia solution, and can administer it properly, it is best to leave it to someone who is trained to handle it.
posted by TheBones at 6:25 PM on July 22, 2010


In a similar situation I flagged down people who might have guns and asked them to shoot it, because animal control can take forever. Smaller animals, I've used my car. Sorry, I know it's tough!
posted by ldthomps at 6:36 PM on July 22, 2010


Honestly I think you should just leave it alone. An injured animal could act unpredictably and be dangerous to you and aside from an almost certainly illegal close-range discharge of a firearm I don't think an untrained person could consistently humanely euthanize an animal.
posted by ghharr at 6:37 PM on July 22, 2010 [6 favorites]


Careful. A hurt and scared deer, especially one with antlers, could seriously injure you.

I do sympathize. My family passed a similar scene while on vacation more than 20 years ago. I still wince at that memory, and I'm not even vegetarian.
posted by jon1270 at 6:39 PM on July 22, 2010


I've been told that the best way to dispatch a deer in this situation is to hit it on the base of the skull (I think that's what you call the place - basically where the skull meets the neck) very hard with a tire iron. Imagine that would work with any injured animal that you can safely get to.
posted by dpx.mfx at 6:44 PM on July 22, 2010


Leave it alone. Drive on, knowing that animals die all the time, and probably with more suffering than yhou witness. The risk for you to do otherwise doesn't make much sense unless you are sure you can safely transport the animal to a rehab facility without getting injured, injuring the animal further, or contracting a disease.
posted by plinth at 6:52 PM on July 22, 2010 [3 favorites]


You drive on by and call the authorities. Anything else is dangerous and stupid. Even stopping is a bad move.
posted by cjorgensen at 6:54 PM on July 22, 2010


Best intentions can cost you.
posted by cjorgensen at 6:56 PM on July 22, 2010


This may come across as a weird question, but is the area rural-ish enough that you know some hunters? I ask because my family lives in a densely wooded area that backs up to a suburb, and deer regularly hang out in our yard (this is southwestern Ohio). A year or two back, a car had struck a fawn crossing the street in front of our house but did not kill it instantly. The deer hobbled into our yard and attempted to hop the fence that divides our property from our neighbors, but in its weakness, could not make it over and instead got his leg tangled in the mesh of the fence. His leg was broken, he was dying, and there was nothing we could do. We opted to call animal control to come put the poor thing out of its misery. We waited over an hour for control to come out to evaluate it, and they ended up euthanizing it. After this, my dad, who is a superintendent, put out an all-call to the hunters in his district, one of whom came within ten minutes to take the remains for his own purposes.

This is a very roundabout way of saying that if you know of hunters in the area and can contact them immediately, do that so that they can come and do it quickly so that you don't have to wait for animal control. I wish we would have gone this route in the first place. This was in the winter time in Ohio, and while the windows were obviously closed, I could still hear its agony piercing through the walls of our house. I'm not a vegetarian either, but I didn't sleep very well that night.
posted by ThaBombShelterSmith at 6:57 PM on July 22, 2010


If it was a large animal, like a deer, especially if it was blocking the road, I would call the sheriff's department or animal control and ask them to put it out of its misery. (If it really took 1.5 hours, I *might* call my dad, who's licensed to carry, and ask him to put it down.) I would not approach it. For a small wild animal, I would not approach and just go on. If it was a dog or cat, I would probably knock on the nearest door and ask whose animal it was.

I sympathize with you. I had only ever hit 1 animal, a possum, until last month when I ran over a snake (yes, I did feel bad) and a turtle, although I think I only knocked the turtle's shell on the underside of my car.
posted by IndigoRain at 7:03 PM on July 22, 2010


As others have said, it might make you feel terrible, but the best thing is to drive on. You're just going to scare the animal more and possibly get hurt.

Exceptions: if it's a dog or a cat, and a house is nearby, you might stop and at least see if the cat belongs to someone nearby. Even if there is nothing anyone can do, an owner might appreciate the fact that you stopped.
posted by elder18 at 7:05 PM on July 22, 2010


One of the worst experiences of my life was clubbing a wounded deer to death with a jack handle. I, like you, felt compelled to do something despite my sensitivity to animals. The first blow knocked it out which was a relief. If I had to do it over again, I wouldn't hesitate.
posted by WhiteWhale at 7:08 PM on July 22, 2010 [1 favorite]


Best intentions or not, do you have anything like the veterinarian experience to know that an animal can't be cured/treated to know when to and when not to euthanise? You have every chance of getting this wrong (for instance, loudest complaining doesn't by any way means greatest chance of dying soonest).

I mean, I've been in the same situation and it was pretty obvious in the instance that I have intervened that nothing was going to work, but it's not always a black and white situation. If you don't have the skills to know when and how best to intervene, then once you consider personal safety (seconding the wariness of deer horns and hooves) your only responsible action is to take the animal to a vet. Have a large blanket or two handy and throw it over the animal and get it into your car if that is practicable. If the animal is too large, then only the calling of animal control is a defensible position in being fully sympathetic to the animal.
posted by Brockles at 7:10 PM on July 22, 2010


Nope, it's not weird. My neighbors hunt off their back porches (it's really rural, I guess, in comparison to my having lived in the city just 3 years back), but they all work. My work hours are pretty odd, so chances are when I'm commuting they're either asleep or at work. I do like the idea of flagging down passing motorists who might have something more useful in their possession...I'm definitely in "gunrack country."

As an aside, I was bemoaning my past few weeks of unforeseen roadside animal contretemps to a coworker, who does what I do on the side, but who was at one time a state trooper full-time and has now moved on to higher law-enforcement channels. He said that 20 years or so ago, you could keep what you hit, as long as you reported it via proper channels first. So, some guy hit a deer, stopped, found it not moving and loaded it into his car. He drove to the nearest barracks and reported the incident.

Upon leaving, he found his car trashed and empty. Turns out, the deer came to, freaked, and then utterly destroyed his car in the act of escaping.

In his words: "So...what do you say to your insurance company, exactly? I still laugh, just picturing that phone call...'I hit a deer, and it destroyed my seats, my front and rear windshield as well as all the other windows, shit all over the interior, clawed up the dashboard, ripped apart all the seats.....'"
posted by nevercalm at 7:14 PM on July 22, 2010 [3 favorites]


Here is a video of a deer hurting the hell out of a dog. Do not go near them, especially if they're spooked or injured if you're not Animal Control-trained. You don't know how badly they're hurt, you don't know what they'll do.
posted by griphus at 7:14 PM on July 22, 2010


One of the worst experiences of my life was clubbing a wounded deer to death with a jack handle. I, like you, felt compelled to do something despite my sensitivity to animals. The first blow knocked it out which was a relief. If I had to do it over again, I wouldn't hesitate.

I guess this is the situation to which this question is seeking to find an alternative...I really don't know that I could do that, though it might be the best thing. Maybe what should I have in the car so I don't have to beat an animal to death? (Not to reduce it to that, but in a very basic way.....)
posted by nevercalm at 7:30 PM on July 22, 2010


I am going to feel even creepier than usual, but have you ever seen No Country for Old Men? What about a pneumatic-driven captive bolt stunner? It wouldn't be a firearm. You'd have a bit better range than the close-up work of a knife. I think it would be expensive to buy and a pain to carry around, but it more or less fits what you want.

You'd have to search around. I think a pressurized tank would introduce some recharging issues. You might want to find something that could run off of the car's electric.
posted by adipocere at 7:38 PM on July 22, 2010


Maybe an Axe or long pointy pole? Something so you can stay out of range of a possibly dangerous deer?

Maybe post an ad on local craigslist or some type of community bulletin board in your area, maybe you can find someone that would be "on call" with a firearm for these frequent encounters. If it took 1.5hrs for the animal control to come, maybe you can try to get an actual sheriff or police officer to come shoot it next time.

I've seen a cat ran over, I didn't stop I just road raged after the person who did it. I got one of my roommates to kill the last bird the cats were toying with, but I'm going to make myself do it next time.
posted by thylacine at 7:42 PM on July 22, 2010


Am I really the only person who thinks it is an insanely bad idea for anyone other than an experienced hunter and/or vet to put the animal down? Just think of how many human executions get horribly botched even when they're carried out in a room full of experienced 'professionals' with equipment designed expressly for the purpose. How many slaughters of livestock get botched even when done by professionals.

It is not as easy to kill *anything* - human, animal, etc. as it is in the movies. Lots of people think you can just hit a person/animal in the head once really hard, and they will invariably lose consciousness. Lots of people think you can just slice the throat of a human/animal and that will be it. No.

You could take the death of an animal from painful to EXCRUCIATINGLY painful, gruesome, and horrifying by trying to DIY this one.

Not only that, you could gruesomely kill an animal whose injuries only *look* bad, but would actually be fine if allowed to recover. In the cases that aren't at the extremes, it's hard to tell.

If you really care about this, and are determined to take care of matters yourself when you come across them, I would suggest investing in some veterinary tech courses at the local community college, so you can at least learn how to put an animal down humanely.
posted by Ashley801 at 7:54 PM on July 22, 2010 [13 favorites]


Not only that, you could gruesomely kill an animal whose injuries only *look* bad, but would actually be fine if allowed to recover. In the cases that aren't at the extremes, it's hard to tell.

At risk of getting too graphic, I'm talking about intestines-out-of-wounds, pink-foaming at the mouth, blood everywhere, really messy and haunting situations. Not just a deer sort of stunned at the side of the road, which I've seen in front of my own house and gone on to see that same deer live a long and fruitful (and very reproductive) life.

That being said, thanks for your answer. That's actually a great idea that I hadn't considered, and after these past few weeks I'm seriously considering going through with that commitment.
posted by nevercalm at 8:15 PM on July 22, 2010


Knives are a really bad idea - not only do they require close contact and a knowledge of how to use them, exsanguination isn't a good way to die either. Poison is a really bad idea too, for all sorts of reasons (not the least is poisoning the carcass for scavengers). Veterinary euthanasia drugs require training and close contact to administer properly, and may contaminate the carcass too (I don't know). If you aren't permitted to keep a shotgun in your car, and you don't want to learn bowhunting, I can't think of a lot else that you can do safely and humanely. You could maybe use a pike or a sword to stab the heart, but again those tools require skill to use effectively (in a way that won't hurt the animal even worse, or hurt yourself), will still be very painful, and may have risks associated that I'm not aware of.

It's really rough, but I would nth the advice to drive on and call the appropriate local agency. Wounded animals, even grievously wounded ones, have the potential to hurt or kill you, sometimes in unexpected ways. For example, a lot of the prairie dogs around here carry plague, and other animals can be passive carriers. Unless you're really aware of the risks, I would call animal control or the sheriff's department and have them send somebody out who can dispatch the animal effectively, humanely, and from a distance.

I say this as somebody who once hit a fawn, broke its back, didn't have a gun in the car, and had to kill it with a hatchet. I now carry a large-enough handgun in the car whenever I travel, not because I'm afraid for my safety, but because I never want to do that again if I don't have to.
posted by hackwolf at 8:21 PM on July 22, 2010 [3 favorites]


I should have added: fortunately, I'm in a state that lets me do so; I understand that you aren't, and that sucks because they're a very effective solution to exactly this problem.
posted by hackwolf at 8:23 PM on July 22, 2010


You can always call PETA: 757-622-7382, then dial 2. You'll receive instructions on how to reach our on-call emergency pager 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. This is precisely the kind of thing that I deal with every day -- if you ever see an injured animal, we can help, EVERY time. As most people in this thread have surmised, it usually involves lining up and paying for emergency euthanasia when an animal has been struck by a car. No matter what the situation is, though, we will never let an animal that has been wounded in any way slip through the cracks.
posted by srrh at 8:27 PM on July 22, 2010 [4 favorites]


Am I really the only person who thinks it is an insanely bad idea for anyone other than an experienced hunter and/or vet to put the animal down?

No, Ashley801, you are not. It's unfortunate, but you're absolutely right in that someone with zero experience in clubbing another living being to death (not that this is a bad thing!!), and who is also emotionally shaken at the time, is not likely to suddenly become an efficient, steely-eyed dispenser of mercy to a wild animal who, if at ALL capable, is not going to be the shy, unassuming herbivore that makes such an idyllic picture out of the kitchen window, or whatever.

It's not pretty, and I know this is an upsetting thing to watch, but there is nothing that you can do in these situations aside from calling Animal Control and/or hunters you may know, as others have suggested. I would NOT recommend stopping on the side of the road to wait for them as you are then A) stressing the animal out even more by the very fact of your presence and B) putting yourself at severe risk of injury or death, not just from the animal but from other drivers who just happen to be answering their phone/putting on makeup/lighting a cigarette at the moment they're approaching you and veer a little too far right.

Also, I'm not so sure taking the animal to a vet is going to work. You don't know what kind of diseases and parasites these animals are carrying, for one thing. Should you happen to be bitten or scratched, or if it spreads whatever it's carrying to the interior of your car, you may be in for a world of hurt.

I know it sounds callous, and I know it sucks. I'm the last person who wants to see an animal suffer, and I think it's shitty that Animal Control is either too understaffed or too nonchalant to really give these poor creatures the attention that they deserve. But you yourself have to realize the grave risks you're taking on by interfering. Get some training if this is something that you really feel you'd like to make a difference in, but don't just assume that you can make the wisest decision on behalf of a wild animal in the heat of the moment.
posted by deep thought sunstar at 8:29 PM on July 22, 2010 [2 favorites]


Just another point to consider:

People WILL look at you in a horrified manner. Not sure if this means anything to you or not (it means nothing to me).

I grew up in a very poor, rural area--what amounts to a no mans land. I learned early on how and why to kill animals, and now I live in a large metropolitan area. Recently, on a large college campus, I saw a squirrel take a fall from a very high branch and land on concrete. He was dying, slowly, with 15 college kids standing around him freaking out. I went over and picked him up and took him to the bushes and broke his neck, and then called campus safety to come take care of his body. I definitely was a monster in the eyes of most of the people around, but the poor guy was clearly going to die, and the only question was when and how quickly.

It is awful to have to do that, and I do not at all recommend it unless you are 100% confident in your ability to accurately gauge an animal's injury. I have had similar experiences, in my youth, where after the fact I second guessed the severity of the injury. It really really sucked.

Just be aware that without seeing the big picture, anyone driving by while you kill a deer on the side of a highway is going to be horrified.


That said, I think it takes a person who is brave, clear-headed and rational to do that sort of thing, and I applaud you for having the heart to even consider it to this extent.
posted by broadway bill at 8:31 PM on July 22, 2010


exsanguination isn't a good way to die either

Eye roll worthy Big Word pr0n notwithstanding, Jews, Muslims, many Hispanic cultures, etc., would disagree with you. A swift, deep, accurate, slice through the throat is the basis of humane slaughter in many cultures.

However, you are completely correct that this is not a casual skill, and I wouldn't recommend any random person trying to slit a scared, wounded animals throat. You will certainly regret that decision.
posted by kjs3 at 8:59 PM on July 22, 2010


This is the sort of issue I've never been sure about. I think killing the animal is merciful and kind if it's clearly going to die painfully. But, if you're not sure how to do it, you could end up causing much more pain.

Consider asking Animal Control for assistance on how to put down animals on your own... They may be able to teach you a quick, painless method you can feel comfortable with. You will likely never be totally comfortable with it, but you will be doing good, at least in my opinion.
posted by Quadlex at 9:13 PM on July 22, 2010


For dealing with the grief, check out Apologia by Barry Lopez.
posted by salvia at 9:37 PM on July 22, 2010


I am glad someone posted PETA's number. I was going to suggest there might be a wildlife rescue organization near you, but the PETA option seems like a good solution.
posted by annsunny at 10:03 PM on July 22, 2010


I had some backyard chickens for about a year, and a few months ago a raccoon got a couple of them. One literally had no face when I found her, (and I wasn't about to let the raccoon come back to finish the job as my roommate suggested) so I had to dispatch her with a shovel (the only thing I had around at the time). My recommendation: find someone else to do it. I eat meat and am fully aware of the realities of that, but that experience ranks among the most traumatic of my (admittedly rather young) life.

I'm sorry you've seen so much suffering recently :(
posted by girlalex at 11:25 PM on July 22, 2010


The gun laws in my state are pretty prohibitive, and I have to cross into a very restrictive city

This doesn't equal "right out." Its very likely that you can legally and quickly obtain a small caliber handgun, and requisite safety training and licensing. You won't need a license for concealed carry or anything like that, you just need to be familiar with state and city regulations around carrying the weapon in a locked box in your trunk.

After that it will be a matter of becoming familiar with animal biology, in particularly how and where on the head to aim to ensure your shot enters the brain. You need to stand at a close but safe distance from the animal and wait until it stops moving rapidly to aim your shot. Speaking as someone who has done this personally, I feel its much more humane than waiting for a sheriff to come along an hour later and do the exact same thing.

Unless you're willing to invest the time and money to go this route, just drive on and call the authorities.
posted by allkindsoftime at 12:58 AM on July 23, 2010


This is an excellent, practical, useful, post, FWIW. A moral dilemma, involving modern human impact on the environment, basic human reluctance to harm, modern human's divorce from life/death/killing... fascinating. Good responses, too, IMO.

I used to carry small animal euthanizing and safety gear in my car when Wife1 was alive. Never, ever used it; Thank heavens.

The range of potential car injuries is huge, and unless you are a vet, and even then, you can't be sure it's a lethal one. If an animal is greviously wounded, 99% of the time, it will die from shock shortly. If not, then either it won't or it will be protracted. It's not under your control which, and you cannot possibly prepare for every emergency. (Incidentally, an emergency is a situation for which you are not prepared. QED.)

Re: guns... I.am.a.good.shot. I.am.an.experienced.hunter.and.former.gun.toter.

That said, I could not reliably hit a writhing bull in the ass with a handgun and I guarantee, neither could you. Also, bullets don't necessarily stop in the animal. A road is a hard surface. A missed shot can have severe consequences to distant souls. "Bullet" is a big term, too. It includes everything from 22 to 50 caliber, subsonic to supersonic, single projectile to shot. An amateur with a handgun shooting at a moving animal whose actions are unpredictable, uncooperative, and random sounds like a good way to meet people in the emergency room. If you are lucky.

If your repertoire is going to include a firearm for human dispatch of animals, I highly do not recommend a handgun. You need distance from said critter, and an accurate pistol shot is not enhanced by distance. If you employ a handgun close to wounded critter, be prepared for a surprise. Critters (even humans) are bags of water. Stuff will fly, and you will surely not be successful with one shot. After the first, the even more wounded animal will be even more agitated and uncooperative, complicating the second application of 'mercy'. None of this is a recipe for success, and all of it makes for bad future memories.

Instead, a small caliber shotgun makes much more sense. Kind of stupid to carry in your car for such purposes, but long guns are usually easier to buy than pistols, and a single shot .410 is cheap, flexible, and not the weapon of a gang banger. It's not concealable, and I know of nowhere a hunting weapon is illegal, do you?

Shot shells from #8 bird shot to deer slugs are available. Aiming is nowhere near as critical. Range is limited. They are much more effective and killing and require the precision of a fly swatter. They are standoff weapons, not close-in. The police will buy your story that the thing is for animal 'love' and a reflection of your inherent kindness as a modern human and not an instrument of neighborhood conquest.

Downside is that critter particulates are somewhat unpredictably scattered, it's loud/loud/loud, and you'll probably miss anyway. Again, even hitting a bull in the ass requires some practice.

You do not want to administer death via hand, knife, or club. If you are kind, you don't even want to administer it at all, but you asked this question. Beating something to death is not something you want to practice, and not something you are good at, by definition.

I hope you never get good at it.

You can also practice the zen of realizing that your (and my) human life is at the expense of the entire planet. Just by living, we kill. Sometimes, we kill via car, and other times, we kill by planting invasive species, paving a wetland, or mining steel for our cars and/or warming up the globe. Running from this guilt and reality is not really possible, so you can insulate yourself from the hypothetical wounded animal by considering that very day, you (and I) kill untold critters. The world is packed with sad death. Kittens starve in a forgotten garage, squirrel babies are picked apart by crows, humans die in overheated tractor/trailers coming north from Mexico, babies are beat to death by their stupid teenaged parents. Life is not pretty and exit from it is not always the quiet whisper of a heart attack in sleep. Most are really, really violent.

It hurts to see the wounded deer or squirrel or cat. Sometimes you just have to see it, and try not to own it.

/end ramble.
posted by FauxScot at 4:16 AM on July 23, 2010 [4 favorites]


When I was a kid and lived in a rural area, my dog was mortally wounded by a car. It was nobody's fault, just one of those terrible things.

The men who hit him were hunters, and they worked something out on the spot with my family, to put down my dog before he had to suffer any more. It was a kindness. It spared my dog a slow death (or a long wait until he could be professionally put down), and spared my family from having to deal with it themselves.

A few years later, when my family have moved into town, a squirrel fell from a tree and broke its back. It was still trying to crawl, despite its horrible injuries. An elderly woman across our street killed it (I believe with a shovel). She explained to us that it was the only thing to do for the squirrel -- would we rather have had the local dogs and cats get to it first?

So, I am in complete agreement with those who have suggested you befriend a kind-hearted hunter, but also consider moving into a neighborhood of straight-talking Austrian war brides.
posted by Coatlicue at 4:42 AM on July 23, 2010


Depends on the animal and state. In NY if its a dog or cat with a collar and the person hits them and does not stay and call the owner they can go to jail.
posted by majortom1981 at 4:44 AM on July 23, 2010 [1 favorite]


I think the most horrifying part of the story is that the police didn't put the thing out of its misery themselves.

This is what guns are for.
posted by gjc at 5:02 AM on July 23, 2010


Seriously? I guess I'm relatively alone in this...
Leave it alone. Drive by, and cherish the fact that the dying deer you saw on the road is one of thousands of deer and other animals that failed at darwin's game, and you've only seen one this week/month/whatever. Animals (and people I might add) die horrible, excruciating deaths all day every day. I'm not asking you to be heartless, but you can't dwell on this stuff if you don't want to spend your whole day stressing about death.

I vote drive by and call animal control along the way, knowing you made a good effort to see it taken care of.
posted by Texasjake987 at 5:27 AM on July 23, 2010


Local Audibon Societies often also rescue native animals (not just birds). They will euthanize non-native animals (or give you the option of caring for it yourself if applicable.)
posted by Skwirl at 8:15 AM on July 23, 2010


FauxScott:

Actually, there are plenty of places where a hunting weapon is illegal to keep in your car - I think school grounds in many places prohibit all weapons on campus, even long guns and bows, even kept locked in a case in your trunk.

I would disagree with you strongly about not using a handgun for this, but I made the implicit assumption (which should have been very explicit) that no matter what tool you choose, if you choose to do this, make sure you are skilled with that tool. I think in most situations I would be comfortable taking a deer at 15-20 feet with the handgun I keep for this purpose, and in my ability to properly assess the backstop risk, but I would also venture to say I'm more experienced and comfortable with handguns than most.
posted by hackwolf at 12:14 PM on July 23, 2010


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