Would you terminate an 11-week pregnancy where the embryo has a serious genetic but somewhat correctable defect?
May 25, 2010 2:29 PM
Would you terminate an 11-week pregnancy where the embryo has a serious genetic but somewhat correctable defect? We are trying to decide which route to take for our next pregnancy.
One of our children was born with a serious but non-mental-defect that required surgery to partially correct (but not cure). The kid will be able to live a mostly normal life and is great, but will always have challenges to overcome. We want more children, but now know that we have a 1 in 4 chance of having a child affected by this condition. We do not want to go through the many challenges of dealing with this situation again.
The options are:
1. not have more children
2. have a procedure done called preimplantation genetic diagnosis where our embryos are screened for those recessive genes before implantation
3. try our luck with natural fertilization
If we went with 2, it's about $25K out of pocket, plus a less-than-pleasant period of preparation for the procedure (injections, longer wait to get pregnant, etc).
If we went with 3, the genetics can be tested at 10 weeks pregnant with a 1-week turn-around, meaning we could find out at 11 weeks if the fetus has both recessive genes.
As you can imagine, if the test comes back positive for both recessive genes, then we would abort the fetus. Even if we are resolute at the time of conception to follow through, it certainly must be hard to do if the time comes, though religion is not a factor for us.
So I'm asking for your opinions on things like:
One of our children was born with a serious but non-mental-defect that required surgery to partially correct (but not cure). The kid will be able to live a mostly normal life and is great, but will always have challenges to overcome. We want more children, but now know that we have a 1 in 4 chance of having a child affected by this condition. We do not want to go through the many challenges of dealing with this situation again.
The options are:
1. not have more children
2. have a procedure done called preimplantation genetic diagnosis where our embryos are screened for those recessive genes before implantation
3. try our luck with natural fertilization
If we went with 2, it's about $25K out of pocket, plus a less-than-pleasant period of preparation for the procedure (injections, longer wait to get pregnant, etc).
If we went with 3, the genetics can be tested at 10 weeks pregnant with a 1-week turn-around, meaning we could find out at 11 weeks if the fetus has both recessive genes.
As you can imagine, if the test comes back positive for both recessive genes, then we would abort the fetus. Even if we are resolute at the time of conception to follow through, it certainly must be hard to do if the time comes, though religion is not a factor for us.
So I'm asking for your opinions on things like:
- How difficult would it be for you to follow through?
- At 11 weeks do you consider the embryo to be a… being? Certainly not viable, and although "human", is it much more than human-shaped?
- What about the emotional connection to the baby? Imagine for the first 11 weeks of pregnancy you try not to get too emotionally attached because you might wind up terminating… but if it winds up being healthy, then would it be tough to secure the connections? I don't even know all the questions to ask because I've never been in a situation like this. We are looking forward to your responses. Not sure I'm expecting any private messages, but if you have something to add privately you may email me at this throw-away address: 11weekshapeorbeing@gmail.com Thank you!
wow. tough call. i think you can only experience a situation like this one and then decide for yourself. I'd have difficulty aborting it if it had a problem, but I won't be in your situation. Who knows if actually facing the choice makes you think differently? I'm not sure I see too much of a difference between stopping at the embryo or the 11wk fetus other than the risk for complications, however incredibly small, is more at 11wk.
But, if it means anything, I'm sure the $25,000 will be useful in helping the child get the assistance it needs for education, safety -- irregardless of what genes it might have. Not sure what your financial situation might be.
It might help to know more about the disease in question also.
posted by skepticallypleased at 2:43 PM on May 25, 2010
But, if it means anything, I'm sure the $25,000 will be useful in helping the child get the assistance it needs for education, safety -- irregardless of what genes it might have. Not sure what your financial situation might be.
It might help to know more about the disease in question also.
posted by skepticallypleased at 2:43 PM on May 25, 2010
That depends entirely on the defect. "Challenges" can be anything from "this was a hassle when I was a kid but I am now used to it" all the way out to "bitterly hating one's disability," which in and of itself depends on the character of the individual.
This is a decision you're essentially making for someone else, who will then have to live with that decision for the whole of their lives. That is true of parenthood in general, but this situation has an added complexity above the standard parenting issues.
My suggestion is to find a support group or forum for adults with this particular issue and ask them what they think. If anyone would have the insight, they'd be the ones.
posted by adipocere at 2:44 PM on May 25, 2010
This is a decision you're essentially making for someone else, who will then have to live with that decision for the whole of their lives. That is true of parenthood in general, but this situation has an added complexity above the standard parenting issues.
My suggestion is to find a support group or forum for adults with this particular issue and ask them what they think. If anyone would have the insight, they'd be the ones.
posted by adipocere at 2:44 PM on May 25, 2010
We do not want to go through the many challenges of dealing with this situation again.
I would say don't have more children, especially if you think you might get attached to it. But if you got attached to it, wouldn't you just end up having it?
For what it's worth, I don't think an 11-week embryo is a human being. Then again, I don't have children, so it might be different for people who have had children and want to have children.
posted by anniecat at 2:47 PM on May 25, 2010
I would say don't have more children, especially if you think you might get attached to it. But if you got attached to it, wouldn't you just end up having it?
For what it's worth, I don't think an 11-week embryo is a human being. Then again, I don't have children, so it might be different for people who have had children and want to have children.
posted by anniecat at 2:47 PM on May 25, 2010
ADOPT
You are the kind of people adoption agencies dream about.
More specifically, you are the kind of parents that orphaned children dream about.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 2:49 PM on May 25, 2010
You are the kind of people adoption agencies dream about.
More specifically, you are the kind of parents that orphaned children dream about.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 2:49 PM on May 25, 2010
How would your kid with the condition feel about himself/herself if he/she found out that you had subsequently aborted a fetus with the same condition?
posted by candyland at 2:52 PM on May 25, 2010
posted by candyland at 2:52 PM on May 25, 2010
An 11-week old fetus is not a human. Period.
posted by speedgraphic at 2:56 PM on May 25, 2010
posted by speedgraphic at 2:56 PM on May 25, 2010
I came in to say exactly the same as candyland. Can you just imagine how your (disabled) child will feel if s/he ever found out that you aborted a fetus with their specific disability? That alone would make me not even attempt to conceive again.
posted by meerkatty at 3:00 PM on May 25, 2010
posted by meerkatty at 3:00 PM on May 25, 2010
One of our children ...
So, you already have more than one child. Love the kids you have.
posted by Carol Anne at 3:01 PM on May 25, 2010
So, you already have more than one child. Love the kids you have.
posted by Carol Anne at 3:01 PM on May 25, 2010
11 weeks is 1st trimester still, meaning an abortion would still be logistically relatively easy to get.
I think that people who would not consider abortion under any circumstance will not be a helpful guide.
I would not consider 11 weeks to be too anything to abort, and can envision (relatively non-drastic) circumstances when I would make that decision.
What that decision and procedure will be like for you in this case? No one can know for sure, and you yourselves are in the best position to make an educated guess. You are also in a position to set up the healthiest and most supportive environment for that.
I don't think you have any more reason to adopt than any other couple. EVERY conception is throwing the dice.
My own opinion is that the tehnology that allows you to contemplate this is a blessing, and that if you were to abort at 11 weeks there would be no harm done (nothing owed to the fetus) except to your psyches.
I also think that the only way you will end up feeling good about whatever decision you make is if you truly take the time, space, and emotional openness to listen to your guts and to each other.
posted by Salamandrous at 3:02 PM on May 25, 2010
I think that people who would not consider abortion under any circumstance will not be a helpful guide.
I would not consider 11 weeks to be too anything to abort, and can envision (relatively non-drastic) circumstances when I would make that decision.
What that decision and procedure will be like for you in this case? No one can know for sure, and you yourselves are in the best position to make an educated guess. You are also in a position to set up the healthiest and most supportive environment for that.
I don't think you have any more reason to adopt than any other couple. EVERY conception is throwing the dice.
My own opinion is that the tehnology that allows you to contemplate this is a blessing, and that if you were to abort at 11 weeks there would be no harm done (nothing owed to the fetus) except to your psyches.
I also think that the only way you will end up feeling good about whatever decision you make is if you truly take the time, space, and emotional openness to listen to your guts and to each other.
posted by Salamandrous at 3:02 PM on May 25, 2010
Sadly I think Candyland made a very good point....wasn't sure how I felt about your question but then I read that and just thought 'oh'
Remember that are all challenged tremendously in this lifetime, whether or not that challenge is readily detected by those around us...even if there wasn't this problem, there are several other issues that people can face based on genetics that are not so readily discernable but nonetheless a source of great pain....
I can't answer your question though, I don't know what I would do.
posted by saraindc at 3:02 PM on May 25, 2010
Remember that are all challenged tremendously in this lifetime, whether or not that challenge is readily detected by those around us...even if there wasn't this problem, there are several other issues that people can face based on genetics that are not so readily discernable but nonetheless a source of great pain....
I can't answer your question though, I don't know what I would do.
posted by saraindc at 3:02 PM on May 25, 2010
We do not want to go through the many challenges of dealing with this situation again.
In that case, I would not have more children. You can never be certain that your child will not have the condition in question, even if the tests say you're in the clear. You also can't be certain that your child won't have some other major, life-changing problem. If you're not prepared to deal with those possibilities, you should stick with the family you already have.
I wish you all the best in making what must be a very difficult decision.
posted by decathecting at 3:05 PM on May 25, 2010
In that case, I would not have more children. You can never be certain that your child will not have the condition in question, even if the tests say you're in the clear. You also can't be certain that your child won't have some other major, life-changing problem. If you're not prepared to deal with those possibilities, you should stick with the family you already have.
I wish you all the best in making what must be a very difficult decision.
posted by decathecting at 3:05 PM on May 25, 2010
My first thought was the same as candyland's. As for your other questions, you've apparently been pregnant at least twice. Can you remember how you felt at 11 weeks? I think the answers to your questions really depend on you, personally, feel about 11 week old embryos.
posted by Mavri at 3:08 PM on May 25, 2010
posted by Mavri at 3:08 PM on May 25, 2010
For what it's worth, Mrs. Plinth had a CVS screen with our second child as our first child has Trisomy 21. Because of her age and because of the previous child, this test was 100% covered by insurance in the US. Is this not the case with you?
We also were not prepared to go through the challenges of a second child with a significant disability. I don't think there should be any guilt in that choice.
On the other side of the fence, having a child with significant disabilities has challenged me to be, I think, a much better parent and having two children with disabilities (one comparatively significant) has made Rachel Coleman the awesomest and most distinctly human parent I have known.
posted by plinth at 3:10 PM on May 25, 2010
We also were not prepared to go through the challenges of a second child with a significant disability. I don't think there should be any guilt in that choice.
On the other side of the fence, having a child with significant disabilities has challenged me to be, I think, a much better parent and having two children with disabilities (one comparatively significant) has made Rachel Coleman the awesomest and most distinctly human parent I have known.
posted by plinth at 3:10 PM on May 25, 2010
I miscarried at 15 weeks a few years ago. My son had trisomy 15, which is a chromosomal abnormality that is "incompatible with life." It's apparently rare for a fetus to develop that far along with that particular trisomy. Nature made the choice for me, but if I'd found out that he had a trisomy that could have resulted in a live birth, I would have had an abortion. The doctors tell me that I am unlikely to have another child with T15, but it's still something that concerns me. I didn't go for genetic testing early on because I didn't think I'd need it, but if I ever get pregnant again, I will be there at 10 weeks on the dot to find out what's going on.
posted by crankylex at 3:11 PM on May 25, 2010
posted by crankylex at 3:11 PM on May 25, 2010
I also came in to point out the potential impact on the child you already have. No matter how much you intend to keep this private, you should assume that one day your child would find out (not because it's the most probable outcome, but because the consequences are potentially bad enough that you should be prepared). No matter how you were to frame it there's there's a good chance that your child would see this as "we feel like you were a mistake and we didn't want to make that mistake again!".
If you go with the embyonic screening it's much easier to -- now, from the very start -- say to your child, 'We know you have a tough time sometimes and we can't do anything more about that, but we're doing what we can to make sure your brother or sister doesn't have the same problem."
I have a colleague with one son and I asked him when we first met if he had other kids (after he mentioned his son) and he said "We just felt like our son was so amazing that there was no way we were going to be that lucky twice." and his pride in his son really came through and it was very sweet to hear. If you abort a child with the same disability as your current child, your child may hear the opposite: "We were really unlucky having you and we were scared we'd be unlucky again."
Adoption still seems like a great bet, though.
Please understand (and no one jump on me), I know this is not your motivation. It is not your thinking and you want nothing but the best for your family and your current and future children. I get that, but feelings aren't always rational and the kind of feelings this could create could be a huge blow.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 3:15 PM on May 25, 2010
If you go with the embyonic screening it's much easier to -- now, from the very start -- say to your child, 'We know you have a tough time sometimes and we can't do anything more about that, but we're doing what we can to make sure your brother or sister doesn't have the same problem."
I have a colleague with one son and I asked him when we first met if he had other kids (after he mentioned his son) and he said "We just felt like our son was so amazing that there was no way we were going to be that lucky twice." and his pride in his son really came through and it was very sweet to hear. If you abort a child with the same disability as your current child, your child may hear the opposite: "We were really unlucky having you and we were scared we'd be unlucky again."
Adoption still seems like a great bet, though.
Please understand (and no one jump on me), I know this is not your motivation. It is not your thinking and you want nothing but the best for your family and your current and future children. I get that, but feelings aren't always rational and the kind of feelings this could create could be a huge blow.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 3:15 PM on May 25, 2010
Well, one factor to keep in mind is that it is going to be the woman's final decision in any event - are you prepared for what happens if there's a disagreement and she choses a different course from him, whether that turn out to be abortion or keeping it?
Otherwise, I think there's a good chance you could terminate without any big problems. People have abortions all the time with no guilt. People also routinely use selective abortion or discard embryos as a complement to fertility treatments (eg, aborting multiple fetuses after ivf). People also abort fetuses with genetic imperfections all the time, and it's not clear to me why it's any worse to abort a down syndrome baby than one with a serious physical defect.
That said, if you want to maximize your chances for reduced drama, pay the 25k and do the preimplant diagnosis. It's a pretty low price to pay to avoid the potential strife and dilemma.
posted by yarly at 3:21 PM on May 25, 2010
Otherwise, I think there's a good chance you could terminate without any big problems. People have abortions all the time with no guilt. People also routinely use selective abortion or discard embryos as a complement to fertility treatments (eg, aborting multiple fetuses after ivf). People also abort fetuses with genetic imperfections all the time, and it's not clear to me why it's any worse to abort a down syndrome baby than one with a serious physical defect.
That said, if you want to maximize your chances for reduced drama, pay the 25k and do the preimplant diagnosis. It's a pretty low price to pay to avoid the potential strife and dilemma.
posted by yarly at 3:21 PM on May 25, 2010
I don't think that you should make serious, life altering decisions on the basis that it may hurt your other child's feelings once he or she is able to conceptualize it.
I also don't think you should feel guilty for making the best decision for your family as it currently exists. Askme can say, oh no, don't abort, every child is a special snowflake! but they don't have to live your life.
posted by crankylex at 3:24 PM on May 25, 2010
I also don't think you should feel guilty for making the best decision for your family as it currently exists. Askme can say, oh no, don't abort, every child is a special snowflake! but they don't have to live your life.
posted by crankylex at 3:24 PM on May 25, 2010
The "what would existing disabled child think" is a red herring. Every one of the alternatives (except having another disabled child) is premised on avoiding another disabled child, either by screening, adoption, abortion, or not having another child.
posted by yarly at 3:28 PM on May 25, 2010
posted by yarly at 3:28 PM on May 25, 2010
To answer your question directly: given that you already have one or more healthy children, I would choose option 1 and not have another biological child, regardless of how much I wanted one. I would definitely consider adoption if my urge to parent another child was strong enough.
That's the answer, now here's the opinion part:
I have terminated an unwanted pregnancy (when I was much younger). I don't regret it, but I would not do it again unless I knew for a fact that the child, if born, would have a life that was more pain than pleasure.
If you could go back in time to terminate the pregnancy that resulted in your current child?
When you conceive a child, you don't know what you're going to get. Its very possible that you could have PGD done, only to have the child face some other serious problem after birth.
posted by anastasiav at 3:31 PM on May 25, 2010
That's the answer, now here's the opinion part:
I have terminated an unwanted pregnancy (when I was much younger). I don't regret it, but I would not do it again unless I knew for a fact that the child, if born, would have a life that was more pain than pleasure.
If you could go back in time to terminate the pregnancy that resulted in your current child?
When you conceive a child, you don't know what you're going to get. Its very possible that you could have PGD done, only to have the child face some other serious problem after birth.
posted by anastasiav at 3:31 PM on May 25, 2010
I would probably go with the PGD. For me, once I had a baby, an 11 week fetus became more 'real' and yet much less 'real' once I realized how much they change just in the first weeks after birth. With pregnancy hormones on board, whether *you* would feel ok with an abortion is really a toss up. I would hate for you to regret it, and I agree with the others who mention how your current child would feel if they found out you'd aborted a child for the same issue the fetus had.
You didn't mention adoption, but others did: if you consider it . . . you should research a lot first, specifically birth mother coercion. It's pretty rare that domestic infant adoption is 'saving an orphan'.
The 'if it matters' disclaimer: pro-choice mom of three, including twins after infertility treatments, who didn't CVS/amnio test for either pregnancy.
posted by MeiraV at 3:43 PM on May 25, 2010
You didn't mention adoption, but others did: if you consider it . . . you should research a lot first, specifically birth mother coercion. It's pretty rare that domestic infant adoption is 'saving an orphan'.
The 'if it matters' disclaimer: pro-choice mom of three, including twins after infertility treatments, who didn't CVS/amnio test for either pregnancy.
posted by MeiraV at 3:43 PM on May 25, 2010
I could terminate an 11-week pregnancy if I knew the child would have a significant abnormality. I'm not sure where on the spectrum of "significant" your issue lies. Something like a club foot wouldn't be something I'd consider significant for these purposes, for example.
It would be a very difficult and heart-wrenching decision but I did CVS testing when I was pregnant and knew that if something scary came up in the results, I would terminate. I was 39 when I got pregnant so I was pretty worried and wanted answers as soon as possible so that I could make the decision as early as possible.
posted by otherwordlyglow at 3:59 PM on May 25, 2010
It would be a very difficult and heart-wrenching decision but I did CVS testing when I was pregnant and knew that if something scary came up in the results, I would terminate. I was 39 when I got pregnant so I was pretty worried and wanted answers as soon as possible so that I could make the decision as early as possible.
posted by otherwordlyglow at 3:59 PM on May 25, 2010
Maybe domestic adoption isn't "saving an orphan," but it could be "saving a child from poverty, which can lead to crime, drugs, a horrible life, etc." Please consider it, as others have said - $25,000 would be far better spent, in my opinion, in giving a child who is already here and needs support a great life instead of bringing life into the world that might need a help physically surviving.
posted by agregoli at 4:07 PM on May 25, 2010
posted by agregoli at 4:07 PM on May 25, 2010
(And also, I see nothing wrong with terminating a pregnancy at 11 weeks).
posted by agregoli at 4:08 PM on May 25, 2010
posted by agregoli at 4:08 PM on May 25, 2010
Shot in the dark-I am guessing your child has a cleft palate?
A friend of mine about my age (in her fifties) had that, and it was surgically repaired. She went on to have four more children, one of which was a cleftie. His was surgically repaired as well and he looks fine.
Look, life is a crap shoot. You could have a perfectly healthy child next time and then an accident could place him or her in a wheelchair or cause other difficulties. None of us is guaranteed wholeness.
Let me let you know upfront I am prolife; having said that, I think that if the thought of another child with this condition would distress you perhaps you could build your family thru adoption instead. Because I have a feeling that if you had another and aborted because of this mostly fixable defect, it would not only affect your older child (who probably would find out whether you wanted him or her to or not) but would probably affect you more than you would think.
If it were me I would probably not have more children, honestly, if I felt that strongly about not dealing with a similar issue again.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 4:13 PM on May 25, 2010
A friend of mine about my age (in her fifties) had that, and it was surgically repaired. She went on to have four more children, one of which was a cleftie. His was surgically repaired as well and he looks fine.
Look, life is a crap shoot. You could have a perfectly healthy child next time and then an accident could place him or her in a wheelchair or cause other difficulties. None of us is guaranteed wholeness.
Let me let you know upfront I am prolife; having said that, I think that if the thought of another child with this condition would distress you perhaps you could build your family thru adoption instead. Because I have a feeling that if you had another and aborted because of this mostly fixable defect, it would not only affect your older child (who probably would find out whether you wanted him or her to or not) but would probably affect you more than you would think.
If it were me I would probably not have more children, honestly, if I felt that strongly about not dealing with a similar issue again.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 4:13 PM on May 25, 2010
I am not religious, and am pro-choice, but I don't think you can ever really know for sure if you would be able to go through with an abortion until you're in that position. If the problem is serious enough, I wouldn't even take the risk of having another child that has to go through with it, especially if I already have at least one child. Adoption is a good suggestion if that's something you're interested in/is a good fit for your family.
posted by ishotjr at 4:16 PM on May 25, 2010
posted by ishotjr at 4:16 PM on May 25, 2010
Every once in a while someone on MetaFilter, or more specifically, Ask.Me surprises me with a comment, insight or some such.
I'd come to join the chorus of "11 weeks is not a human" until I read candyland's comment. And that stopped me cold. 11 weeks may not be a human but candyland is spot on.
Don't have any more children.
posted by FlamingBore at 4:17 PM on May 25, 2010
I'd come to join the chorus of "11 weeks is not a human" until I read candyland's comment. And that stopped me cold. 11 weeks may not be a human but candyland is spot on.
Don't have any more children.
posted by FlamingBore at 4:17 PM on May 25, 2010
Remember that of the four theoretical outcomes of fertilization, one child would have the defect, one child would be genetically normal, and two would be carriers of the gene.
posted by Sallyfur at 4:18 PM on May 25, 2010
posted by Sallyfur at 4:18 PM on May 25, 2010
This is a tough one. I'm currently 9 weeks, and honestly, I feel very little emotional connection right now because of the fact that it is still early, and I'm bracing myself that at the 12 week scan there could be no heartbeat - it happens. Miscarriages are common. I've already been lucky with my first kid being healthy, so I'm just preparing myself in case this one doesn't get so lucky. If you're someone like me, then abortion would suck because the child was wanted, but I wouldn't feel an overwhelming swell of emotion that led me to keep a baby with serious defects, and I think I would bounce back after a mourning period.
I think a lot of people don't really get attached to the pregnancy until past the 12 week mark, so at 11 weeks you may still think logically and rationally. There's a reason people keep quiet during the first trimester - so much can go wrong even outside of the circumstances you are in.
posted by kpht at 4:23 PM on May 25, 2010
I think a lot of people don't really get attached to the pregnancy until past the 12 week mark, so at 11 weeks you may still think logically and rationally. There's a reason people keep quiet during the first trimester - so much can go wrong even outside of the circumstances you are in.
posted by kpht at 4:23 PM on May 25, 2010
I was born with a bunch of birth defects (not genetic; just luck/karma/etc). I do not know what my parents would have done if they could have known at 11 weeks that I would turn out this way. When I was born, I was not expected to live past 2 weeks and the doctor had told my parents to prepare my funeral. They were told that if I lived, I'd be mentally impaired.
I'm now 35, happily married, have a Master's degree, and am adopting a child (can't have any of my own due to aforementioned defects). The only thing that affects me on a daily basis is hearing impairment, which is mostly corrected by hearing aids.
I am firmly pro-choice and would fight for your right to do whatever you feel is best. I'm not trying to make you feel guilty, either. But I thought I'd share my perspective. You just never know how something will turn out.
posted by desjardins at 4:45 PM on May 25, 2010
I'm now 35, happily married, have a Master's degree, and am adopting a child (can't have any of my own due to aforementioned defects). The only thing that affects me on a daily basis is hearing impairment, which is mostly corrected by hearing aids.
I am firmly pro-choice and would fight for your right to do whatever you feel is best. I'm not trying to make you feel guilty, either. But I thought I'd share my perspective. You just never know how something will turn out.
posted by desjardins at 4:45 PM on May 25, 2010
Having had a miscarriage at around 12 weeks, I know for certain I could not voluntarily terminate a pregnancy at that time.
I think it depends on what the issue is. If it's bad enough that it would make me think twice about having another kid, I'd adopt. If the other kid is living with it, and I could physically, mentally, emotionally, and financially handle a second one with the same issues, I'd go for it.
posted by dpx.mfx at 4:50 PM on May 25, 2010
I think it depends on what the issue is. If it's bad enough that it would make me think twice about having another kid, I'd adopt. If the other kid is living with it, and I could physically, mentally, emotionally, and financially handle a second one with the same issues, I'd go for it.
posted by dpx.mfx at 4:50 PM on May 25, 2010
I didn't really answer your questions, sorry.
How difficult would it be for you to follow through? No idea, I can't get pregnant.
At 11 weeks do you consider the embryo to be a… being? Certainly not viable, and although "human", is it much more than human-shaped? This is a metaphysical question IMO. I happen to be buddhist, so no, in my view it's not a sentient being.
What about the emotional connection to the baby? Again, no idea, but as I said, we're pursuing adoption and I'm developing an emotional connection to a hypothetical child (we haven't even been accepted by the agency yet!).
And I just read St. Alia's comment. If she is correct in her assumption that it is a cleft palate, that is one of my defects (urgh, I don't like that word. Challenges? Differences? anyway) It is not even on my radar as affecting my life in any way. I had surgery when I was a kid (I don't even remember that one!) and now I eat and drink like everyone else. I'm sure taking me to the doctors sucked for my parents, but it was mostly over by age 8 (not just for the cleft palate, for everything).
posted by desjardins at 5:03 PM on May 25, 2010
How difficult would it be for you to follow through? No idea, I can't get pregnant.
At 11 weeks do you consider the embryo to be a… being? Certainly not viable, and although "human", is it much more than human-shaped? This is a metaphysical question IMO. I happen to be buddhist, so no, in my view it's not a sentient being.
What about the emotional connection to the baby? Again, no idea, but as I said, we're pursuing adoption and I'm developing an emotional connection to a hypothetical child (we haven't even been accepted by the agency yet!).
And I just read St. Alia's comment. If she is correct in her assumption that it is a cleft palate, that is one of my defects (urgh, I don't like that word. Challenges? Differences? anyway) It is not even on my radar as affecting my life in any way. I had surgery when I was a kid (I don't even remember that one!) and now I eat and drink like everyone else. I'm sure taking me to the doctors sucked for my parents, but it was mostly over by age 8 (not just for the cleft palate, for everything).
posted by desjardins at 5:03 PM on May 25, 2010
The "what would the other kid think" thing is an interesting thought experiment, but hardly likely to come into play, unless toddlers are being brought into family planning discussions.
I was an older mother...some might even say antique...and therefore genetic testing for things like Down's syndrome was protocol. We did have to sit down and think/discuss for a long time what we would choose to do if tests came back with genetic abnormalities. The difference being that they don't do tests like that until about week 24...which is significantly pregnant, as opposed to 11 weeks, which is slightly pregnant. Fortunately, our intellectual exercise was never put to the test.
Kids are wonderful, and add so much to our lives...but when we have children, we are creating a channel by which another entity gets to live out a lifetime. We, as parents, don't live their lives, they do. They have to live with any long term medical costs, discomforts, adaptations, etc.
Given that I don't know what condition we're talking about, and erring on the side of "difficult to live with", were I in your position; I would probably choose not to get pregnant again, and would instead focus my time and energy on my existing children.
I think the idea of going and talking to adults who have the disorder is a great idea.
That said; no random strangers on the intarwebs can give you the answer that fits best with your morality, your belief system, or your bio-ethical imperatives.
posted by dejah420 at 5:09 PM on May 25, 2010
I was an older mother...some might even say antique...and therefore genetic testing for things like Down's syndrome was protocol. We did have to sit down and think/discuss for a long time what we would choose to do if tests came back with genetic abnormalities. The difference being that they don't do tests like that until about week 24...which is significantly pregnant, as opposed to 11 weeks, which is slightly pregnant. Fortunately, our intellectual exercise was never put to the test.
Kids are wonderful, and add so much to our lives...but when we have children, we are creating a channel by which another entity gets to live out a lifetime. We, as parents, don't live their lives, they do. They have to live with any long term medical costs, discomforts, adaptations, etc.
Given that I don't know what condition we're talking about, and erring on the side of "difficult to live with", were I in your position; I would probably choose not to get pregnant again, and would instead focus my time and energy on my existing children.
I think the idea of going and talking to adults who have the disorder is a great idea.
That said; no random strangers on the intarwebs can give you the answer that fits best with your morality, your belief system, or your bio-ethical imperatives.
posted by dejah420 at 5:09 PM on May 25, 2010
Another option: get some different genes. Would your wife consider a donor to reduce risk?
posted by smoke at 5:15 PM on May 25, 2010
posted by smoke at 5:15 PM on May 25, 2010
On one hand I think it depends on exactly what the disability will be. On the other hand, I have seen people overcome incredible disabilities to achieve great things and best of all, be happy.
I'd suggest checking out No Excuses by Kyle Maynard. His disability certainly is significant but his life is not.
And even if you have a 2nd kid with the same disorder, then at least the two kids don't go through any of it alone.
posted by thorny at 5:21 PM on May 25, 2010
I'd suggest checking out No Excuses by Kyle Maynard. His disability certainly is significant but his life is not.
And even if you have a 2nd kid with the same disorder, then at least the two kids don't go through any of it alone.
posted by thorny at 5:21 PM on May 25, 2010
The prenatal testing as described for option 3 testing seems highly idealized. If the procedure is a CVS, there are many reasons why the procedure might be deferred (placental accessibility, for instance). There are also many reasons why a genetic test might take longer than one week for results. You might need to think more about pre-16 wks termination.
Having said that, based on my personal moral, financial, insurance, cultural, immediate family situation, and the local schools/hospitals/ancillary services, I could terminate much later than 11 wks for certain conditions. You and your spouse might want to meet with an experienced genetic counselor or other trained counseling professional for a neutral perspective that allows you both to work through these options.
Given the financial, logistical and emotional reality of caring for a special needs child in the USA, many couples have made the extremely difficult and private choice to terminate subsequent affected pregnancies. But many would not state this publically to a possibly judgemental audience. So while strangers on the internet are correct in that it is possible to raise multiple special needs children, you would be the ones having to actually commit to it.
posted by beaning at 6:00 PM on May 25, 2010
Having said that, based on my personal moral, financial, insurance, cultural, immediate family situation, and the local schools/hospitals/ancillary services, I could terminate much later than 11 wks for certain conditions. You and your spouse might want to meet with an experienced genetic counselor or other trained counseling professional for a neutral perspective that allows you both to work through these options.
Given the financial, logistical and emotional reality of caring for a special needs child in the USA, many couples have made the extremely difficult and private choice to terminate subsequent affected pregnancies. But many would not state this publically to a possibly judgemental audience. So while strangers on the internet are correct in that it is possible to raise multiple special needs children, you would be the ones having to actually commit to it.
posted by beaning at 6:00 PM on May 25, 2010
Obviously, no one can make this decision for you.
I would choose not to have more of my own biological children. Here's why.
1. My mom was adopted, and I feel strongly that it is a wonderful choice for a lot of people.
2. I am still pro-choice, but my stance skewed more conservatively after I got pregnant with my first child. As of now, I would always err on the side of having the baby if the support and resources were there to support the child (be that financial, medical, what-have-you).
3. I suffered a miscarriage of my second pregnancy, at about 8 weeks gestation. I wasn't devastated by it, but it certainly made me sad. When I conceived again, I went to the doctor earlier and was given more strenuous screening because of the earlier miscarriage. It was such a relief to me to see the little heart beating at 5-6 weeks and know that this pregnancy would probably last. (It did. She's 6 months old now.)
4. My little sister got pregnant at almost the exact same time as me. At her first ultrasound at 20 weeks, they were screening for all the normal stuff, paying close attention to the heart because her husband had been born with a hole in his. There were abnormalities, and she was told that the baby probably had Trisomy 18 which, like T15 mentioned above, is not compatible with life. After much testing, it was found that the baby only had a cleft palate and lip. We were all SO overjoyed to know that it was only a cleft palate, and that the baby wouldn't die. She is now almost 6 months old, scheduled to have her lip repaired next month and her palate early next year.
Simply put, if you don't want to roll the dice, then DON'T.
posted by wwartorff at 7:16 PM on May 25, 2010
I would choose not to have more of my own biological children. Here's why.
1. My mom was adopted, and I feel strongly that it is a wonderful choice for a lot of people.
2. I am still pro-choice, but my stance skewed more conservatively after I got pregnant with my first child. As of now, I would always err on the side of having the baby if the support and resources were there to support the child (be that financial, medical, what-have-you).
3. I suffered a miscarriage of my second pregnancy, at about 8 weeks gestation. I wasn't devastated by it, but it certainly made me sad. When I conceived again, I went to the doctor earlier and was given more strenuous screening because of the earlier miscarriage. It was such a relief to me to see the little heart beating at 5-6 weeks and know that this pregnancy would probably last. (It did. She's 6 months old now.)
4. My little sister got pregnant at almost the exact same time as me. At her first ultrasound at 20 weeks, they were screening for all the normal stuff, paying close attention to the heart because her husband had been born with a hole in his. There were abnormalities, and she was told that the baby probably had Trisomy 18 which, like T15 mentioned above, is not compatible with life. After much testing, it was found that the baby only had a cleft palate and lip. We were all SO overjoyed to know that it was only a cleft palate, and that the baby wouldn't die. She is now almost 6 months old, scheduled to have her lip repaired next month and her palate early next year.
Simply put, if you don't want to roll the dice, then DON'T.
posted by wwartorff at 7:16 PM on May 25, 2010
My second child died at birth of a genetic disorder. We had genetic counseling where we were told we had doubled our chances to two percent in having another child with a neural tube disorder. Both of the subsequent pregnancies were extremely nerve-wrecking, especially as my fourth pregnancy kept coming up as there being a possible problem. I refused to purchase items, plan for life after the birth or decide on a name as a way to protect myself. Now, I was facing likely fatal condition. Something like cleft palate (which I have known so many people with that it seems like just part of the spectrum of normal) would not be upsetting to me personally. I have bonded well with my children post-birth by the way.
Abortion is a highly emotional topic, I don't see how rationalizing that "it doesn't look too human" will help if your gut reaction is that it is that eleven weeks too close to the line of murder for yourself (what if the dates are off and you are told it is thirteen weeks along?) My friends that have successfully navigated post-abortion guilt felt very strongly they had done the right thing. If the woman (sorry, I can't tell if it is you) will second guess or regret her decision to abort I think it would be healthier to be thankful for the children you have and let go of having more biological children if you aren't prepared to have more children with challanges.
posted by saucysault at 8:06 PM on May 25, 2010
Abortion is a highly emotional topic, I don't see how rationalizing that "it doesn't look too human" will help if your gut reaction is that it is that eleven weeks too close to the line of murder for yourself (what if the dates are off and you are told it is thirteen weeks along?) My friends that have successfully navigated post-abortion guilt felt very strongly they had done the right thing. If the woman (sorry, I can't tell if it is you) will second guess or regret her decision to abort I think it would be healthier to be thankful for the children you have and let go of having more biological children if you aren't prepared to have more children with challanges.
posted by saucysault at 8:06 PM on May 25, 2010
Close friends of mine have a child with a genetic condition which results in a particular physical deformity and a few other challenges. Nothing insurmountable, but sadly, the surgeries the child has undergone have thus far been unsuccessful.
They opted for genetic testing and preimplantation genetic diagnosis for their second child.
They had a third, unexpected child without the condition, despite a 1 in 4 risk.
I don't think they would have considered aborting the third child, but I don't think that they'd blame anyone who did. It's really, really up to you. I personally think that morally you're in the clear either way. That's what choice means.
posted by desuetude at 8:40 PM on May 25, 2010
They opted for genetic testing and preimplantation genetic diagnosis for their second child.
They had a third, unexpected child without the condition, despite a 1 in 4 risk.
I don't think they would have considered aborting the third child, but I don't think that they'd blame anyone who did. It's really, really up to you. I personally think that morally you're in the clear either way. That's what choice means.
posted by desuetude at 8:40 PM on May 25, 2010
I know this doesn't really answer your question, but I'm not sure a whole bunch of strangers on the internet can answer the questions you are asking here.
How would you feel about terminating a healthy pregnancy at 11 weeks? Is that a decision you could be comfortable with, or could you only be comfortable with that decision if something was wrong with the fetus or your health?
Another thing I would consider--even if you went with option 2, you could rule out some genetic defects, but it's still possible that your child could be born with other disabilities or issues, isn't it? Good genetic material doesn't necessarily mean that you have a life without physical or mental hardships.
That being said, I am not a parent. I have never gone through what you are going through, and I am sure that it is very difficult For what it's worth, no I don't think that there is anything morally wrong with having an abortion at 11 weeks.
posted by inertia at 9:04 PM on May 25, 2010
How would you feel about terminating a healthy pregnancy at 11 weeks? Is that a decision you could be comfortable with, or could you only be comfortable with that decision if something was wrong with the fetus or your health?
Another thing I would consider--even if you went with option 2, you could rule out some genetic defects, but it's still possible that your child could be born with other disabilities or issues, isn't it? Good genetic material doesn't necessarily mean that you have a life without physical or mental hardships.
That being said, I am not a parent. I have never gone through what you are going through, and I am sure that it is very difficult For what it's worth, no I don't think that there is anything morally wrong with having an abortion at 11 weeks.
posted by inertia at 9:04 PM on May 25, 2010
http://misispb.blogspot.com/2007_06_01_archive.html
One of your questions seemed to be directed at what a fetus that age looks like. The above link will help answer your question.
If it's helpful at all, I teach Special Education to students who have a variety of special needs. Most of those kids are some of the happiest I've met. Having a disability does not mean that your life will be "harder". Everyone has their struggles. I've even met some people who are GLAD of their disabilities because of who they have become as a result of living with it.
I like the advice of looking into adoption. There are so many beautiful children and babies looking for homes.
posted by Happydaz at 9:57 PM on May 25, 2010
One of your questions seemed to be directed at what a fetus that age looks like. The above link will help answer your question.
If it's helpful at all, I teach Special Education to students who have a variety of special needs. Most of those kids are some of the happiest I've met. Having a disability does not mean that your life will be "harder". Everyone has their struggles. I've even met some people who are GLAD of their disabilities because of who they have become as a result of living with it.
I like the advice of looking into adoption. There are so many beautiful children and babies looking for homes.
posted by Happydaz at 9:57 PM on May 25, 2010
Seconding the notion that you really can't say for certain that you would have an abortion in this scenario until you are in that position.
If the woman in this situation changes her mind as the pregnancy progresses, decides that she cannot abort, and then goes ahead anyway based on some "deal" that you had made previously, you are in serious trouble. That kind of regret and remorse has been known to destroy marriages and sanity. Do you really want to put your marriage at risk for a shot at a second "genetically normal" child?
That said, the woman may very well be resolute that she cannot take on another child known to have special needs and she might be just fine with terminating. I have miscarried as well at 11 weeks, but unlike other women here that have lost wanted pregnancies I would be willing to terminate in some scenarios, maybe even yours. I know my limits, and my capacity to deal with children with special needs is limited. Then again, I might get there and change my mind and carry to term. It's a crapshoot. You can't know until you try it.
posted by crazycanuck at 10:00 PM on May 25, 2010
If the woman in this situation changes her mind as the pregnancy progresses, decides that she cannot abort, and then goes ahead anyway based on some "deal" that you had made previously, you are in serious trouble. That kind of regret and remorse has been known to destroy marriages and sanity. Do you really want to put your marriage at risk for a shot at a second "genetically normal" child?
That said, the woman may very well be resolute that she cannot take on another child known to have special needs and she might be just fine with terminating. I have miscarried as well at 11 weeks, but unlike other women here that have lost wanted pregnancies I would be willing to terminate in some scenarios, maybe even yours. I know my limits, and my capacity to deal with children with special needs is limited. Then again, I might get there and change my mind and carry to term. It's a crapshoot. You can't know until you try it.
posted by crazycanuck at 10:00 PM on May 25, 2010
Just as a single data point: many years ago, I terminated an (unwanted and unplanned FWIW) pregnancy at almost 12 weeks and medically it's not a big deal in the slightest: feels much more like having a heavy period than anything else, and the product of the abortion doesn't really look like anything (I checked it out, just to know). Obviously, an unwanted pregnancy will be very different emotionally than a wanted one, and this is something you're going to have to negotiate for yourself. I don't consider unviable embryos to be "beings" in any way, but they represent a potential for one. What significance you apply to that potential is as personal as anything can be.
Good luck in your journey to motherhood, whatever path it may take! :-)
posted by Kurichina at 8:51 AM on May 26, 2010
Good luck in your journey to motherhood, whatever path it may take! :-)
posted by Kurichina at 8:51 AM on May 26, 2010
To answer your question succinctly:
In your position I would not have any more biological children.
If you insist on forging ahead, then my stance would be to abort if there was a serious genetic problem because I would not want my child to live a painful life. Had I known the existing child would live a painful life I would have aborted too, not because I don't love the child today but because I wouldn't want them to bring them into pain and suffering. This all of course rests on what "serious" means and what the disability is and where it falls on your personal spectrum.
posted by WeekendJen at 10:52 AM on May 26, 2010
In your position I would not have any more biological children.
If you insist on forging ahead, then my stance would be to abort if there was a serious genetic problem because I would not want my child to live a painful life. Had I known the existing child would live a painful life I would have aborted too, not because I don't love the child today but because I wouldn't want them to bring them into pain and suffering. This all of course rests on what "serious" means and what the disability is and where it falls on your personal spectrum.
posted by WeekendJen at 10:52 AM on May 26, 2010
Even though there is only a 1 in 4 chance that the fetus will have this defect, there is a 3 in 4 chance that it will either have the defect or be a carrier. The world is filled to the brim with kids whose only "defect" is that they were born poor or under-priveledged. Please consider adoption; humans are not an endangered species, there's no need to breed.
posted by ambulocetus at 6:32 PM on May 31, 2010
posted by ambulocetus at 6:32 PM on May 31, 2010
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posted by caddis at 2:37 PM on May 25, 2010