So now, my kid is a shoplifter. Grumpy neighbor relations ensue.

October 19, 2009 8:15 AM

My kid spent the night with his friend. The next day, thinking he's still at the friend's house, I get a phone call from the local grocery store. Seems my kid was shoplifting. Now, both of the mom's involved are angry with each other.

I'm posting this anonymously, because I don't want my son to find this. The details are kind of ugly. Throwaway email at [e-mail]. Apologies for the length.

The boys are 12 and 13. Mine is the younger one.

My son spent the night with his best friend. I'm friends and neighbors with the parents. The boys have had sleepover pretty often, both here and there. The last time their boy was over, we caught him smoking in the bathroom after we'd hidden every possible bit of tobacco and alcohol in the house. He's been known to steal cigarettes from his own parents and has been, in general, a troubled kid.

Saturday afternoon, I thought my boy was still at the friend's place, playing video games or whatever, when I get the call from the local grocery store. My son had been caught shoplifting.

I went and picked him up. The people there were more than reasonable. Actually, they were very, very kind. They'd even considered just letting him go, but I was glad they didn't. I figure if you're going to get in trouble, you might as well learn a lesson from it. He and his friend had walked there and my son said he was thirsty, but had no money, so he took a soda. We've been shopping at this place for years. They know me, my kids, and the other family involved. The store also has the best water fountain in town, just for the record.

He says his friend had no idea of what he'd done, which I find hard to believe. He'd asked them to let his friend go home, and they did.

Here's the tricky part. My kid is a straight A student with no history of bad behavior. His friend, on the other hand, has recently been allowed back to regular school, so there's a lot at stake for him if he gets caught misbehaving.

I tried to call the other parents before I left to get my son and they weren't home. The oldest daughter had been left with the phone and responsibility for the kids in their house. The boys left before the other parents did. The other parents also weren't home when I got back and went to collect my son's things. They didn't even know about the incident until Sunday. No, I didn't call. I was pretty angry and didn't want to be venting at the wrong target. On Sunday, the other mom called and left a message, which I tried to return, but got voice mail. Then, she showed up at my door and came on in, like usual. She seemed surprised that I was aggravated with her at all and stomped off mad at me. I mean, we usual have coffee or drinks together regularly, and I can't be grumpy about this?

Here's my beef. They left not knowing where the boys were. What they do know is that their son gets in trouble pretty often. No one called me to say they were leaving because they left their teenage daughter home and in charge. When they did find out what happened 24 hours later, there was nothing even remotely like a "sorry I lost track of your kid when he was in my care." And, their kid has a history of this kind of crap and mine doesn't. The boys' stories also don't entirely match up, and the other boy took an attitude with me when I picked up my son's things.

I know kids make stupid mistakes, and believe me, we are having repercussions. He's grounded. He's written letters of apology to the two folks whose day he made worse at the store. I sure don't see anymore sleepovers for a while at anyone's house.

We've all known about various dysfunctions with the other household. The mom I'm talking about has often come over to vent, and my kids have been considered positive influences to their kids. My kids know they are loved, but I'm generally one of those moms who doesn't take any crap.

I know this is long, but I guess my biggest questions are:

1. How I should feel about this and deal with it appropriately.
2. How I should feel about the other mom, who has been a long-time friend of the family, getting angry with me for feeling angry with her? She seemed super-offended that I was put out with her at all. If the situations had been reversed, I think I would have gotten a lot more grief.
3. This family friendship has been pretty one-sided for a long time. Is it time to just write it off as too much trouble?

posted by anonymous to human relations (39 comments total)

I don't think it makes any difference who was in charge at the other boy's house, as the shoplifing occured off-premises.

Twelve is old enough to know better and take responsibility, which it seems your son is doing. I guess I'd recommend not trying to find a way to pin this on the other family, and continuing to focus on your son and his "lapse in judgement".

I can understand why the other mother was put off by your anger towards her over something your kid did of his own volition (by his admission). Tend to your own garden.

I would, however drop the friendship if you are going to continue to blame them for things your son is doing. That seems like a pretty shaky relationship to being with, and isn't positive for either side.
posted by joelhunt at 8:24 AM on October 19 [2 favorites]

1. Your son deserves the full brunt of your disappointment and anger for the shoplifting and it's really not the other kid's fault, even if the other kid did know more than the boys are letting on. Your son still did it. I was a "good kid" who was friends with some "bad influences" at that age, but when I did stupid shit it was still my fault. Maybe moreso because I was fully aware of the risks I was taking and the punishments if I got caught. Your son may be making more stupid decisions with this friend than by himself, but he is still making the decisions. (Also, I don't really think that there's something horribly wrong with your son taking the blame and protecting his friend who has more to lose. There is some honor in that. I bet your son is a really good friend.)

2. If you are angry with the other mom for leaving the kids under the older sister's supervision, then I think you can tell her that. But since I don't think you can blame the other kid for the shoplifting, I really don't see how you can blame the other mom. You need to separate those two issues when you speak to her again. Let her know that when the boys are over there, you want to be made aware if the parents are leaving and who will be in charge. But again, your son is old enough to know the rules and he can be held responsible for staying there without parental supervision if he fails to call you and let you know.

3. I think it's hard to say... while limiting the time the boys spend together seems like a natural consequence to the shoplifting, I think it would be a shame to not give both boys the opportunity to earn your trust back. Their friendship is distinct from your relationship with the other mom, and I think you can treat it as such if you just can't get past this. But then again, she may be a good ally for you while you get these boys to start making better choices together and it would be a shame to lose that if it can be maintained.
posted by juliplease at 8:29 AM on October 19 [4 favorites]

This is a tough one, because on the one hand you don't want to give up on the "problem kid" and you seem to like the mom as a person, but on the other hand it's clear that this family is troubled, and the problem kid is a bad influence on your son. No parents are perfect, but it sounds like these parents aren't taking full responsibility for their child's misbehavior or for their part in allowing it. And leaving the boys alone with the teenage daughter without telling you was inappropriate. They should have at least asked you first.

I would probably stop letting my child hang out at their house, but still allow the boy to come over to ours (after the grounding is over, of course). But I would not leave them alone together unsupervised, and I would encourage my child to branch out and make other friends, friends who might be a little less likely to encourage him to engage in felonies. In the meantime, I think gently explaining to the other mom that you're very uncomfortable with her decision to leave the boys with the daughter, and that you're troubled by your son's tendency to get into trouble whenever he hangs out with her child, would not be out of line.

As hurtful and angering as it might be to hear it, wouldn't you want to know if other parents viewed your kid as a troublemaker? I sure would. You don't have to be rude about it, but your anger is justified and I think you should be as honest with her as you have been with us. She deserves an explanation. Who knows? Maybe it will be the final push she needs to make some much-needed changes in the way she handles her son's less-than-desirable behavior.
posted by balls at 8:31 AM on October 19 [1 favorite]

We all know that chances are that the other kid knew, right? I mean, come on. Probably a dare or something.

We all know that it was your kid who was busted though, right? He's elected to man up and take full responsibility. Which is...almost admirable. Not *good*, but admirable. Even so, he's kind of avoiding the he-said-she-said.

So here's the thing. You can't punish the other kid. You can say he's not welcome @ your house. You *can* tell your kid he can't hang out w/ the other kid, but that just makes it that much more desirable. What you CAN do is make it difficult.

I would start off with a sit down, face to face, discussion. NOT about the other kid. About YOUR expectations, HIS abilities, HIS decisions, YOUR disappointment. Let him know he violated your trust AND he lied. I'm a big fan of "there's one thing you can't take from a man, and that's his word. A man's word is his bond" line of thinking.

T'were it my child, his life would be over for the foreseeable future. He'd apologize in person to the owner/manager/whomever. He would pay for what he stole, even if it was returned. He would be signed up for upcoming community service projects, he'd be doing his homework right after school, etc. He might even find himself subject to privacy invasion. (Door off its hinges maybe, or mom looking in his backpack.) iPod gone for a couple weeks, screen time minimized. Let him know it's not a joke and you're not joking.

Then, around Thanksgiving or so, I'd start to loosen up, and by about the first of December it would be water under the bridge.
posted by TomMelee at 8:31 AM on October 19 [2 favorites]

Oh, and it goes without saying that whether the other child is a bad influence or not, your son chose to steal. You seem to be handling his punishment well, which is why I didn't mention it, but please don't think I'm blaming the other kid for your child's actions!
posted by balls at 8:32 AM on October 19

I think that as your own son's mom you have two things here you can focus on: one is your son's behavior, which you and he are already dealing with. The other is your preferences about supervision while at his friend's house, and you may need to cool down a little to sort that out. You might ask yourself: Would it have bothered you that the boys walked to the store alone if he hadn't taken the soda? Would it have bothered you to have them left in the care of the teenage sister if nothing had gone wrong?

From there, you can be clear to both your son and his friend's parents what your expectations are when he's at their house. No leaving the house and yard without letting you know? No leaving the house and yard at all? If the parents need to leave, it's time for your son to come home? We often have a friend of my son's stay over, and after he'd been doing it for awhile, one of his moms said to me, "Oh, by the way, it's really important for N. to keep on a regular sleep schedule, so can you try to make sure he gets to bed by 9?" That kind of thing shouldn't be a big deal, but we would have been inclined to let the boys stay up later if they wanted, had the parents not said anything.

It sounds like you have concerns about this other boy being a bad influence on your son. Don't try to address those things right now while you're feeling really upset, and also maybe a little defensive (it does look like you're wanting to deflect responsibility from your son). Give yourself some time to cool down and think about the bigger picture.
posted by not that girl at 8:32 AM on October 19 [1 favorite]

IANAParent.

Not a direct answer to any of your questions, but it sounds as if you'd very much like to place as much blame as possible on the other kid and his parents so that you won't have to be quite so embarrassed / angry at / dissapointed with your own son or even yourself. There's no particular way you 'should feel,' but you should be careful of displacement and projection. Anger that the other parents didn't do something (constantly supervise your kid) they never agreed to do is going to make a conversation with them difficult.

It does not sound to me as if the other parents did anything terribly wrong by leaving your almost-teenage son and his teenage friend in the care of their older daughter without telling you. If the kid is such a bad influence that a lack of constant adult supervision is problematic, then your kid probably shouldn't be over there at all.

You may not know the whole story of how this developed, but you really don't need to. Your kid did something wrong, got caught and is suffering the consequences. If he's taking the rap for something the other kid instigated then he may not want to spend more time over there anyhow. If you go after the other kid and his parents, you'll only be sending your own kid a message that he can get away with crap like this -- which I'm sure you don't want to do.
posted by jon1270 at 8:33 AM on October 19 [4 favorites]

Joel, you're missing the reason for the beef. The poster's kid was at another family's house. The two kids left the next day together, apparently while the parents of the house were there. The parents at that house didn't know where they were going, and then they left as well. The same parents didn't let the poster know that the two boys had left, and in fact were out of touch all day.

I could be wrong, but the issue is that the poster let his or her son spend the night at another house, and then the adults in the house just let them leave without any idea of where they might be going, and then put themselves out of touch for the rest of the day as well. I would imagine the poster is not cool with letting his or her son go off on his own without telling the adults where he's going. I think the poster is in the right here: if you're going to accept responsibility for my child for the night, you're responsible for them. If they say they're going to the movies and you okay it, and then they go shoplifting instead, at least the only problem here is that the kids lied (and stole, obviously.) But to just not have any idea what's going on w/ the kids is irresponsible.
posted by nushustu at 8:34 AM on October 19 [9 favorites]

Here's my beef. They left not knowing where the boys were.

They're 12 and 13, old enough to go to the mall on their own. It was a reasonable thing for them to do that and I would guess you wouldn't be mad if he'd just come home without incident. In fact, it seems to me like you're mad because you believe either your son's friend is a bad influence on your son, or your son is taking the rap for your friend's shoplifting.

My opinions:
1. Take your son at his word, punish him for what he said he does, but don't choose his friends for him; he needs to sort that out on his own.
2. You're not being fair to the other mother. Rather than accept what the boys are saying, you're implicitly accusing them of lying, and taking out your anger on his mother, who really has done nothing wrong in this particular case except raise a troubled kid.
3. Let your son be friends with who he wants and you be friends with who you want. At this age your kids will be off on their own soon anyway.
posted by PercussivePaul at 8:35 AM on October 19 [5 favorites]

Joel, you're missing the reason for the beef. The poster's kid was at another family's house. The two kids left the next day together, apparently while the parents of the house were there. The parents at that house didn't know where they were going, and then they left as well. The same parents didn't let the poster know that the two boys had left, and in fact were out of touch all day.

Well, I was tring to address the three questions at the end of the post. The OP threw a whole lot of info in the post about the "bad influence" factor, and it seemed that a lot of her feelings were mixed up with suspicion at the other boys level of involvement.

I don't feel the question asked was as clear-cut as the "Here's my beef" line would indicate. The OP has misgivings about the other boy and her family's friendship with the other family, and those problems don't seem based exclusively around the difference in parental monitoring levels.

Also, her kid is 12 years old and she'd expect a call from the other parents to let her know the boys had gone to the store? If that's the case (i.e. she would have been upset regardless of how the visit to the store ended), then I don't think her kid should be going on sleepovers where she hasn't vetted the other parents more closely, because that seems an unusual expectation.
posted by joelhunt at 8:46 AM on October 19 [2 favorites]

I agree with most of what thw others say, i.e., tend to your own garden, but twelve seems on the young end for persistent "getting into trouble" behavior. The other kid is acting out to get some kind of negative attention from his parents and he will only up the ante. Do the best you can to keep your kid out of his wake.
posted by readery at 8:46 AM on October 19 [1 favorite]

I think the only thing that you can be angry about is the teen sitter but only if you made it clear in the past that you didn't want the teen to sit.
Do you let them go to the store alone? If so, this could have happened on your watch too.

I'd apologize to the mom, noting that you misdirected your anger.
posted by k8t at 8:46 AM on October 19

It seems like everybody is focusing on the wrong thing here. It doesn't appear that the poster is trying to shift the blame for shoplifting. He or she is upset because she trusted another set of adults to watch his/her son, and then they pretty much shirked that duty. I find it hard to believe that I would accept responsibility for someone else's kid for a night, and then think it was okay if I basically just let him leave on my watch with no knowledge of where the kid was going, when he would be back, etc.

The poster has three problems here.

1. Her kid shoplifted.
2. The other kid's parents let them leave w/o any knowledge of where they were going, when they'd be back, etc.
3. This other kid is potentially a bad influence on his/her son.

It seems like the poster has taken care of #1.

#2 is pretty cut-and-dried: the other parents failed in their duty as caretakers. Perhaps they could argue that they don't keep tabs on their own son every second of the day, so they wouldn't do the same for the poster's son. If this is the case, you have a right to tell them that you're not okay with that. Perhaps you can share the blame here if you didn't make it clear with them that you didn't want your own son to be able to run around unsupervised, but at the end of the day, the other parents are not blameless either.

#3 is stickier. It would be easy to say that, perhaps the other parents' lax parenting is the cause of their own son being a bad kid. It's too easy an answer though, and I agree with other commenters here that it your own son might resent not being allowed to hang out w/ his friend.
posted by nushustu at 8:46 AM on October 19 [1 favorite]

Then, she showed up at my door and came on in, like usual. She seemed surprised that I was aggravated with her at all and stomped off mad at me.

Your 'being aggravated' reminded her, that this is something that should be taken seriously. But she has decided that she won't, because she has lost the control over her kids, that she doesn't parent the kids, and just don't want to be reminded of that shame. So you made her shame visible, and shame wants to be kept hidden, at all costs.

Going further out the line, I'd say her son's behavior is due primarily to her (lack of) parenting. And that she is a way bigger influence than your son, and his "positive influence" will amount to nothing until she changes herself — which will require her to face her shame.
posted by flif at 8:48 AM on October 19 [3 favorites]

If I understand you correctly, the fact that your son was shoplifting is a separate issue from the fact that the boys were unsupervised. Yes?

I'd separate those two issues, then. Let's look at the shoplifting first: Your son said he did it, and didn't involve his friend. That may be, and that may not be. But I'd take your son at his word here - if he did do it, he deserves the consequences, and if he didn't, he deserves to know that "sticking your neck out for your buddy for the WRONG reasons may not be such a smart idea".

Now for the leaving-the-boys-unattended. Now: I get that you were a little uneasy about that, but they are twelve and thirteen. It's not unheard of to leave a thirteen-year-old unattended in a home -- hell, thirteen-year-olds often BABYSIT other children. You may personally have your own reservations about leaving a thirteen-year-old unattended - or, maybe, about leaving THAT SPECIFIC thirteen-year-old unattended -- but you're not that particular child's parent, and they've made their own decisions about that matter.

I have a hunch that, if you were going after her for the "why did you leave the kids alone" thing, that that was why she got angry, as opposed to the "omigod you let the kids steal". And...you may not agree with it, but from where I'm sitting, openly criticizing another parents' parenting practices is something you just don't do, unless your child is in direct physical danger (i.e., "Um, I understand that you believe exposing your child to guns is a good way to 'neutralize his fear of firearms,' but he's currently pointing a loaded gun AT my child, you think you could intervene, maybe?"). However, it's also understandable that you lashed out - you were pissed, because your son did something stupid.

If I were you (mind you, I have no children of my own, so I'm speculating here) -- I'd make an apology on those grounds ("Sorry I lashed out, I was just particularly angry at the situation and took it out on you") for the sake of harmony. After that....well, that's up to you. If you have indeed been a little uneasy about staying friends with them, then you can do a slow fade; let the kids hang out if they want, but you don't need to drop over at the mother's house for coffee yourself if you don't want. Or, if you do decide to stay friends, you've started mending the fences.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:48 AM on October 19 [2 favorites]

Stop letting your son go over there and end the friendship.

Their son probably is a bad influence. Your son is also completely to blame- he's twelve, not an infant.
posted by spaltavian at 9:15 AM on October 19 [1 favorite]

At this age your kids will be off on their own soon anyway.
posted by PercussivePaul at 11:35 AM on October 19

At twelve the OP's child will be off on his own soon anyway? That's six long years, Percussive Paul. My parents weren't packing me up for college when I was twelve!
posted by pinky at 9:28 AM on October 19

You can't really stop your son from hanging out with whom he wants to hang at this age, unless you go for some kind of total lockdown. You can, however, punish him for not being his own person and doing stupid things his friends do and encourage him to do otherwise.
posted by ignignokt at 9:40 AM on October 19

How I should feel about the other mom, who has been a long-time friend of the family, getting angry with me for feeling angry with her? She seemed super-offended that I was put out with her at all. If the situations had been reversed, I think I would have gotten a lot more grief.

As other people have said above, it's very reasonable to not know where your 13 year old kid all the time. If your parenting style necessitates you knowing where your kid is all the time (which is also reasonable) then you need to make that clear to other parents before you let your kid spend the night at their house.

Getting upset at someone for doing something differently than you would is cause for getting super-offended. You should only get mad at people when they do things you've specifically told them NOT to do.
posted by 23skidoo at 9:44 AM on October 19

While you do not have to encourage the friendship between these two boys, I don't think you should do anything to actively discourage it because that's a surefire way to make sure they are friends for life. For example, planning a fun outing with another family gives your son options & takes up some time he may have spent with the other boy, but saying, "you can't see your best friend anymore," will most likely backfire on you. Does that make sense?

As for how you should feel, well, I don't think there is a "should" here. You are entitled to your feelings no matter what they are. What you are not entitled to do is take out of those feelings on someone else when they are misplaced. It's really easy to get into the "if you hadn't done x,y, or z then b never would have happened" thinking, but this incident is not your neighbor's fault. It doesn't matter how troubled her boy is or if he's a bad influence, your son did the wrong thing and is now doing the right thing by owning his actions and taking responsibility. I understand why you have animosity towards her at the moment, but it's not entirely justified or fair.

I don't think 12 or 13 is too young to venture out into their world, even more so because you seem to live in a small town and/or a closeknit community. Yes, I was babysitting and taking public transportation to school when I was 12, but that's me and how I was raised, and maybe that doesn't work for you. If you truly have a problem with these two boys being left to their own devices, then you need to actually state that and ask that in the future, they deposit your son back at your house before leaving them unsupervised. Your son will probably resent that on a few levels, especially if it's a distinct change in the rules, but you can just chalk it up to a new world order because he did the wrong thing and until he's a bit older, he can't be trusted to be out and about unsupervised.

I'm sorry this happened, and I think you are dealing with a whole mess of understandable emotions. On the plus side, it sounds like your son is generally a good kid, he is being punished appropriately, and you have every reason to expect this won't happen again in the future. Best of luck to you both!
posted by katemcd at 10:05 AM on October 19 [1 favorite]

I have kids in the same general age range as your boy and in my experience by the time kids are 12-13 it is pretty common, particularly with the ubiquity of cell phones, to not be overly concerned about leaving kids of that age unattended for brief periods of time (my boys were babysitting their younger brother at this age) or demanding to know their exact geographic whereabouts (provided they are staying fairly close to home) every second of the day.

Of course there is nothing wrong if you desire more supervision for your own son and a stricter accounting of his time, but I think the onus is on you to make that known to the parents of your son's friends. I don't think you had a right to be sore at this woman because leaving pre-teen boys on their own for a little while is not a grossly negligent act. I can completely sympathize with your being upset that your son got himself in trouble, but this post reads like you are trying to scapegoat this woman which I don't think is fair, her son being a "problem child" notwithstanding.
posted by The Gooch at 10:08 AM on October 19

I'm a bit confused by your account. You say the boys left before the parents, so where does the older teenage daughter being in charge come into it? If the boys weren't in the house, who was she in charge of, and if it wasn't your son, why does it matter?

The oldest daughter had been left with the phone and responsibility for the kids in their house. vs The boys left before the other parents did.... so the boys weren't in the house when the daughter was left in charge?

They left not knowing where the boys were vs
No one called me to say they were leaving because they left their teenage daughter home and in charge... again it sounds like they left after the boys had already gone out so that fact that no-one called you shouldn't be because of the daughter?

It seems like you're overreacting a little to something relatively minor. How would you feel about the situation if your son hadn't been caught shoplifting? You say that the other boy is a known troublemaker, well at his age that isn't all on him, some responsibility has to be on the parents and yet you let them look after your kid. After all you say about their child its really not surprising they have a different standard of parenting than you. They obviously feel its OK for 12 and 13 year old boys to be out alone without asking where they're going etc. and obviously you don't think that's OK. That's something you need to discuss with your friend and more importantly, your son. You need to make it clear to him that if he stays over with a friend then goes elsewhere, he needs to let you know. By the sounds of it, the friend lives pretty close, so he easily could have come home and let you know where he's going. That's how it was done when I was little - if we stayed over with a friend then we'd check in at home first before going on anywhere else. From being much younger than 12 we always knew it was our responsibility to make sure our parents knew where we were - mostly because we'd be the ones getting in trouble if we weren't where we said they'd be.
posted by missmagenta at 10:42 AM on October 19

You say you're angry at the other family for letting the kids go the mall and not knowing where they were going. Would you have let them go? It seems like a perfectly normal thing to do to me.

Did you have a set time when you were expecting your son back at your house? There was a period of time where you just assumed you knew what your son was doing -- and who was taking care of him or knew his whereabouts.

Honestly, this family may have problems, but the tone of your post sounds overly judgy about their family dynamic, like this would have never happened on your watch. Ask yourself if it could have. It sounds like you're rightfully upset that this happened, but the pointing fingers at anybody beyond your son just seems like it is going to teach him a bad lesson about taking full responsibility for his actions, honestly.

I say this as someone who comes from a relatively dysfunctional family -- a lot of my friends were from wealthier or more stable homes, and got better grades than I did -- but a lot of them were much bigger rule breakers than I was. When we'd all get busted doing something that we weren't supposed to be doing (which was honestly, never my idea, I always felt terrible anxiety doing a lot of the stupid "bad" things that teenagers do), my friends would get the talk about how I was a bad influence. It did make a dent in my self esteem, and it made me feel more ashamed of my family than I think I even needed to. Your son shoplifted. Please do not blame this other kid or his family. When something happens that IS this kid's fault, feel free to do so.

I think you have the right to be annoyed that they didn't know the whereabouts of either kid, but only if a.) this is something you would never have done, and b.) if in the future, you are extremely clear about this expectation, and when you expect your son will be home. Maybe I'm making assumptions from your post, but it sounds like you let him go over there and leave of his own volition when he feels like coming home, and if you have more stringent expectations for the amount of supervision he'll have when he's visiting, you need to set more detailed boundaries.

I also hear the undertones of judgment and borderline self-righteous comparison of your mothering skills versus her mothering skills. I'm sure she feels it your interactions. If I were her, I'd be pretty steamed as well if you were mad at me because your son shoplifted with her son out in public. I'd probably feel judged and frustrated. I don't necessarily think you need to apologize, but I do think you need more time to cool down and get the right perspective. If your sons are truly best friends, having a family friendship is good for everybody.
posted by pazazygeek at 10:44 AM on October 19 [1 favorite]

12 years old in The City is not the same as 12 years old in Podunk, I'm guessing you lie somewhere in between. From the experiences I had growing up, this sort of thing lends itself to brats egging on other kids for their own amusement. Not only is it exciting to watch someone do what you told them to do, but twofold because it's wrong. Bonus points if the person is clean-cut and this isn't something they'd normally do. We continue to do this as adults with tons of things, legal or not.

What ended up happening with a sibling that did this is that my mother let go all responsibility. Chalked it up to being "the bad one". Said sibling continued to do this throughout the teenage years and into adulthood, unscathed. If I so much as hinted at something as a joke I was reprimanded.

Ignore the other kid and just focus on your own. The neighbor kids will come and go with varying degrees of parenting and lack thereof. Don't insult the parents directly. Once your boy realizes he's above this and stops hanging out with this kid, that will be a slap in the face enough.
posted by june made him a gemini at 11:17 AM on October 19

I don't think you have much to be angry about, other than at your kid. At 12 or 13 I don't think it's reasonable to expect 24 hour surveillance, and your kid has said it was him alone who did the shoplifting. I don't think at that age you're in much of a position to second guess him or the actions of the parents. If they were younger, okay, but at twelve you can be left home alone. This wasn't the middle of the night -- it was a Saturday afternoon. You couldn't have expected the other parents to be following the kids around all day.

I think your anger was misplaced, you didn't want to put full blame on your kid and so you took it out on Other Mom. You might be right in what you're inferring, that your son was a follower or at least, not the sole culprit, but you really aren't in a position to accept anything other than the facts as they've been laid out to you.

I think you see your kid's punishment through, take it seriously, keep a good eye on the friendship and cut off some of the unsupervised time (maybe your kid has to take mandatory after school whatever now, just so you can cut down on their time together.)

I don't think you should jump down with both feet on the friendship. I do think you should apologize to Other Mom.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 11:28 AM on October 19 [1 favorite]

If you think this kid is a bad influence on your child, why are you letting them hang out and have sleepovers? You're the parent. If you think the neighbor kid is the bad seed, then you should have put a stop to that friendship ages ago.

When you get past all your "my kids a straight A image of perfection and that kid is destined for reform school" justification, you'll realize that you are simply disappointed in your son's choice. That disappointment is leading you to blame everyone else. It's a normal defense mechanism, but it's not helpful in this case.

1. You feel however you feel. However, direct your anger and disappointment toward the appropriate targets. You've raised your son for 12 years. He's stealing from his neighborhood store; didn't you teach him not to be a thief? Of course, you did. He's 12 and made a bad choice. Punish that and move onward.

2. Do you never let the kids out of your sight? Do you let them ride bikes or go to the park? If you can genuinely say you know exactly where those two are every second, then you've got some grounds. However, if you don't allow a 12 year old out of your sight in what is a stable family neighborhood, you've also got some control issues.

3. Honestly, she has a lot more reason to be pissed at you. Your kid's actions put her son at risk.
posted by 26.2 at 12:01 PM on October 19 [2 favorites]

I think you have every right to be upset with your son. It sounds like you are doing a great job by having him write apology letters and grounding him.

Your anger towards the other mother seems very misplaced. I think it is completely normal for the parents to go out and leave the kids alone at that age. They shouldn't have to call you to tell you they are going out. It's your responsibility to tell your son that when he goes somewhere he needs to call you. I think it's a bit odd that you would expect the mother to call you and I can understand the other mother getting angry with you.

It sounds like you and the other family share different values. You may not really be compatible as friends and that's OK. Also, I want to point out that there isn't a particular way you "should feel." Feelings are feelings. You are angry at the other mother and even though I think it's misplaced, it's still the way you feel. I would take it easy and try to get some perspective.
posted by parakeetdog at 12:50 PM on October 19

I cannot believe some of the answers here. I think they're hung up on the fact that the OP's kid stole. But again, that is not the problem here.

Lemme pose a thought experiment: let's reverse the situation. Both the kids come over to the OP's house. The next day, they both leave. The OP doesn't ask where they're going, doesn't find out when they'll be back.

Now let's say that something worse than shoplifting happens. They disappear for a week or something. Are you guys seriously telling me that the other kid's parents would have no reason to be upset with the OP? That they would have no reason to say "Hey, we trusted our kid with you, and you just let them take off and now who knows where they are?"

And let's not do the whole "12 is old enough to be out on your own" thing. There's a reason why there's more outrage at when a 12 year-old gets raped than when an 17 year-old does. It's because they're still kids. Sure, they're not toddlers, but they're not exactly young-adults yet. I'm not saying that 12 is too young to be out alone, but I think it's also not too crazy to think that it's okay for parents to want to know where their 12 year-old children are going.

So the poster has every right to be pissed off that the other parents didn't have any idea where they were, ESPECIALLY considering the boys left while the parents were still at home.
posted by nushustu at 12:59 PM on October 19 [6 favorites]

It's your responsibility to tell your son that when he goes somewhere he needs to call you.

This.

Like others have said, 12 is old enough to be alone in a house, go to the store/mall with your friends, but it is your son's responsibility to keep you updated with his whereabouts. As far as you knew, he was at his friends. When they left to go to the store (or when they leave to go get pizza/the movies/whatever), he needs to call you and let you know.

Also, not to preach too much, but I'll just spit it out: I had a friendship like this when I was younger - my friend was the "bad influence", I was the decent kid. Her family life was kind of messed up, and my parents weren't too fond of them when we were young. My parents sometimes tried to keep me from being friends with this person (after incidents like my dad hearing her say "fuck" or whatever), but it never worked. Even when we were 16 and my parents said I couldn't hang out with her anymore...she got a job where I was working after school. That friendship has since ended (a couple years ago, when I was in my late 20s...nothing terrible, but we just grew apart), but for most of my life, my friendship with this girl was one of the most important things to me, and she really wasn't a bad person. I know it's tough when they're adolescents/teernagers with peer pressure and rebelling and all, but perhaps your son could serve to be a good influence on this other kid?
posted by AlisonM at 1:08 PM on October 19

12 years old is NO WAY old enough to be left alone in a house. In some jurisdictions, it is illegal to leave less than a 14 year old alone in a house, let alone out unsupervised.

If my child is at another parent's house, they tell me where they are if they're out of the house, and at each change of venue. Not because I ask them. But because that's NORMAL PARENTING. You should know where your children are at all times, and expect them to be there.

So yes, I would be upset.
posted by blue_wardrobe at 1:36 PM on October 19

At twelve the OP's child will be off on his own soon anyway? That's six long years, Percussive Paul. My parents weren't packing me up for college when I was twelve!

I meant to suggest that they'll soon be showing more independence and hanging out on their own without parental supervision or co-ordination. You know, typical teenager stuff. The OP should think if she actually likes the other mom and would like to be her friend if the original impetus for them being together - looking after each others kids - is gradually removed.
posted by PercussivePaul at 1:42 PM on October 19

Now let's say that something worse than shoplifting happens. They disappear for a week or something. Are you guys seriously telling me that the other kid's parents would have no reason to be upset with the OP? That they would have no reason to say "Hey, we trusted our kid with you, and you just let them take off and now who knows where they are?"

In the scenario you described, the kids could've been abducted even if they said "Hey Sleepover Parents, we are going to walk to the store." Knowing where the kids were would NOT have prevented an abduction.
posted by 23skidoo at 1:50 PM on October 19 [1 favorite]

So, basically you're angry at the other mother for leaving the house without waiting for the boys to come back, and just for leaving at all, even if the boys had returned, since you are unhappy that if the boys had returned to the house normally (if the shoplifting incident had not occurred), they would have been with the oldest daughter instead of the parents.

As others have mentioned, that's really a separate issue from the shoplifting. If you've earlier made it clear to the other parents that they need to be home the whole time your son is there, and that your child shouldn't leave their house to go anywhere else without them calling you about it, then you have the right to be upset that they ignored that (and also upset with your son for not calling).

If you've never told them that, it seems to me unreasonable to be angry since not everyone has the same rules and expectations.

About the shoplifting, well, you are understandably upset, but it's not the other mom's fault. Maybe your kid took his cue from her son, maybe not. Either way, it's your chance to help him learn how to deal with friendships with others (some of whom will try to get him do things that are not good for him; some of whom he will want to try to impress, and so on) while still being smart and responsible for his own actions, which sounds like what you are doing.
posted by taz at 1:59 PM on October 19

Yes, and it wouldn't have stopped them from shoplifting either. And obviously, there is no good part of a kidnapping or whatever, but my point still stands. At least there would be some knowledge of where the kids were supposed to be on the part of the parents. And if the kids didn't show back up at the house after an hour or three, then they can start to try to figure out if everything is okay or not. But if the parents don't know where the boys went at all, and then they themselves take off for the rest of the day, it could theoretically be hours and hours before anyone is aware that there is a problem.

It's not about keeping kids safe every second, it's about keeping some kind of tabs on the kids. The fact that the parents of the other kid didn't even know what had happened until the next day, especially considering that their own kid already has "a lot at stake for him if he gets caught misbehaving," indicates to me that maybe they could be a little less lax.
posted by nushustu at 2:05 PM on October 19

In the scenario you described, the kids could've been abducted even if they said "Hey Sleepover Parents, we are going to walk to the store." Knowing where the kids were would NOT have prevented an abduction.
But it gives them a location to start from, a spot on the grid. Two teenage boys walk out of a house in the middle of the day -- where the hell would you even begin to look?

Furthermore I'm having a hard time seeing how people are saying that the shoplifting was 100% his doing. We don't know the OP, we don't know her son, we don't know how well the OP knows her son, but peer pressure is out there and it's ridiculous. Hypothetically, if he admitted his friend pushed him into doing it you'd never let him see that kid again. He's taking the fall because he knows he's the good kid who can't afford another strike and getting kicked back out of normal classrooms again.

Being accepted by people you look up to for whatever reason, especially at that age, is a huge deal.

I would have a sit-down now about the implications of covering someone's ass for them just to be sure that he's not put in this position again. If it was his doing and he wasn't trying to impress his buddy, that's another conversation entirely, likely the one you may have already had.
posted by june made him a gemini at 3:23 PM on October 19

Whether or not a 12 year old is mature enough to stay home alone (or with a friend or with supervision of a teenage sister) is dependent on the child. Whether he is mature enough to walk to the store unsupervised also depends on the child as well as the town and the distance to the store. There is no blanket statement that covers every situation.

This is apparently a long term friendship with people who live in your neighborhood. Did you make your expectations known to the other boy's parents, particularly since you seem to understand that he is not very well supervised (stealing cigarettes, being forced out of the "regular" school)? Everyone has different ideas of what appropriate supervision consists of, and it sounds like their ideas are not a good match for yours, and that you were aware of this in advance.

Let your son know what level of supervision you expect him to have when he's away from home and tell him that you expect him to call you if it is not being met. Is he allowed to walk to the store with a friend? Can he be dropped off at the movies with a friend? Is he allowed to ride his bike around the block out of view of an adult? These are things he needs to know. These are also things that you need to make clear to anyone with whom you are leaving your son overnight. You cannot assume that your standards will be met without conveying them.

If you didn't discuss supervision with your neighbor (it's not enough to say that she knows you're strict), I don't believe you have any reason to be angry with her. Only you can say if the friendship is worth maintaining, but I think you should at least make an effort to explain to her why you were upset, and apologize if it's warranted.

You sound like a great parent, and I know it's upsetting to see a child who has always behaved as expected doing something he knows is wrong. But making bad decisions and suffering the consequences is how we learn some of our most valuable lessons. It looks like you're helping him do that.

Best to you.
posted by contrariwise at 3:50 PM on October 19

TomMelee's answer, plus:

The other kid may be a bad influence, sure, but why is your kid a follower? Does he have no other friends? Does he think this kid's behavior is "cool" and this is just the first time he had the balls to try to imitate it? Is the other kid bullying him into doing things he doesn't want to do? You need to talk to your kid about why he did what he did. Really, why, not BS why. You don't have to (and shouldn't) try to get him to blame the other kid, but you do need to know why he did something he knows better about.

Not to worry. I was your son when I was in the 5th grade. We lived on a military base which was really physically safe, so our parents let us roam all over. So. This guy I knew who I kind of hoped to be a friend of, since he was cooler than me, had started hanging out with me, which I liked - we were even going to stay over at his house the upcoming weekend. So, for some reason we decided we needed a little alarm clock (? makes no sense now), and went to the base exchange to find one. So we did. Then, as we're standing there, he puts it in my pocket and says let's go, and fast-walks toward the door. I didn't really have the self-whatever to, in that split second, say WTF? No! and put it back. I just kind of followed his lead.

I, of course, got caught. Thus embarrassing my dad, the junior officer trying to get somewhere in the military when he got a message at work that his kid was caught stealing at the base exchange. I was just so mortified by that, no punishment (other than the obvious grounding) was ever necessary. My dad and I did have a talk about having the guts to do what I know is right. And it worked.
posted by ctmf at 5:49 PM on October 19

I think you're (rightfully) disappointed and furious with your kid. And I think that the other mom is embarrassed as hell and it's making her defensive.

Maybe I'm off base in my reading-between-the-lines abilities, but you don't really sound like you'd feel good about blowing this up into an end to your friendship with the mom. I'd say to take the high road.

Your kids are at the exact age where they should be able to have a little more freedom in exchange for using good judgment. And...it's not a foolproof plan. Your son was lucky that he did get caught. Best to get the object lesson out of the way over minor stuff so that he can see that it's embarrassing as hell to do such a stupid thing that he knew was wrong. (How much stuff did you do at that age that your parents never knew about? Not necessarily stealing or anything "big," but still, things that fell into the category of "mom and dad said no.")
posted by desuetude at 6:59 PM on October 19

follow-up from the OP

There has been a lot of really good advice here and I wanted to thank everyone. I realized as soon as I hit the Post button that my tone would come off as blaming the other kid or his parents, and that's my fault. I got caught completely off guard and was in a tizzy.

My kid screwed up. He tried to steal.
Thankfully, he failed.

Today, I had a phone call and a nice conversation over coffee with the other mom. We both figured out that we'd been very emotional yesterday and should not have tried to have a conversation in person at the time. Today was a lot more sane and productive.

Actually, I think typing it all out and reading the responses helped a lot with all of it. All of the perspectives were instructive.

Both boys are in trouble and are having consequences, mine for the shoplifting and hers for going somewhere he knew was off-limits. We've decided to let their stories stand as given and treat them each accordingly.

Yeah, my kid knew he should have checked in. He also knew better than to try to take the soda. I don't keep track of his every move every second, but I do need to know roughly where he'll be and when he'll be back. Mostly so if I need to go collect him, for whatever reason, I can without having a panic. I do want my children to be self-sufficient and good, honest people.

This was a learning experience for everyone involved, to be sure. The conversations I've had with my son the past few days have been good and enlightening. I hope it sticks for both of us. He's used the words "selfish" and "thoughtless" in a new way for him, and figuring out that these aren't good things. The apology letters he wrote to the store staff people took a few drafts, all on his part, and we'll be delivering them in the next day or two. We also had a chat about peer pressure and standing up for what you think is right.

The teenager being in charge wasn't really the issue, although I do appreciate people's input on that, too.

It's hard when your kid screws up. I don't think I'm a bad parent, but I do think I could have reacted better with the circumstances.

Thank you all again for your responses.

posted by jessamyn at 6:10 AM on October 20