Ocean's Twelve doesn't make any sense to me
December 20, 2004 9:47 PM Subscribe
Oceans Twelve. Am I an idiot or does this movie not make a lick of sense (spoilers inside--DON'T READ if you haven't seen the flick).
So I saw this flick today and I'll be damned if I can make head or tail of it:
1. The heist that Julia Roberts participates in... why do they bother with it? They've already got the egg (prior to it coming to the museum) and therefore won the contest and are owed the money by the french guy so.... I don't understand why they do it and it's the bulk of the movie so WTF?
Can anyone explain what the hell I missed?
2. Their plan is to take the egg and replace it with a hologram that lasts 2 minutes.
a. The hologram has a base to it which means they would not only have to steal the egg but the base of the platform it's reasting on (which they don't do when they do steal it while CZJ is watching on the video camera)... how they hell is this even possible by simply grabbing it? What makes them think the base is gonna just lift off?
b Two minutes? Um, what the hell good is that?
3. Who was that getting Frank out of the prison at the end? First I thought it was one of Benedict's goons but that doesn't make any sense so I figure it's the guy that fake beats up Danny in the first movie. Seems like quite a leap, though. They fly this guy to Amsterdam to bail out Frank? To what end?
Okay, that's all the questions I got and yeah, I realize it's just a stupid Hollywood heist flick and I shouldn't be asking too much of it but it's been a long time since I've been this disappointed with a movie so.... I'm asking. Anyone?
So I saw this flick today and I'll be damned if I can make head or tail of it:
1. The heist that Julia Roberts participates in... why do they bother with it? They've already got the egg (prior to it coming to the museum) and therefore won the contest and are owed the money by the french guy so.... I don't understand why they do it and it's the bulk of the movie so WTF?
Can anyone explain what the hell I missed?
2. Their plan is to take the egg and replace it with a hologram that lasts 2 minutes.
a. The hologram has a base to it which means they would not only have to steal the egg but the base of the platform it's reasting on (which they don't do when they do steal it while CZJ is watching on the video camera)... how they hell is this even possible by simply grabbing it? What makes them think the base is gonna just lift off?
b Two minutes? Um, what the hell good is that?
3. Who was that getting Frank out of the prison at the end? First I thought it was one of Benedict's goons but that doesn't make any sense so I figure it's the guy that fake beats up Danny in the first movie. Seems like quite a leap, though. They fly this guy to Amsterdam to bail out Frank? To what end?
Okay, that's all the questions I got and yeah, I realize it's just a stupid Hollywood heist flick and I shouldn't be asking too much of it but it's been a long time since I've been this disappointed with a movie so.... I'm asking. Anyone?
You're not an idiot. This movie doesn't make any sense.
It's better if you just sit back and listen to the banter and think how meta it is that Julia Roberts is playing a woman pretending to be Julia Roberts.
Seriously.
That Albert Finney helping them thing really felt like they were writing themselves out of a corner.
It was fluff. I kind of enjoyed it at the time, but you'd really expect more out of the man that made The Limey.
posted by SoftRain at 9:56 PM on December 20, 2004
It's better if you just sit back and listen to the banter and think how meta it is that Julia Roberts is playing a woman pretending to be Julia Roberts.
Seriously.
That Albert Finney helping them thing really felt like they were writing themselves out of a corner.
It was fluff. I kind of enjoyed it at the time, but you'd really expect more out of the man that made The Limey.
posted by SoftRain at 9:56 PM on December 20, 2004
Three words: Catherine Zeta Jones.
Hubba hubba. Any movie, no matter how dumb, is worth watchin for that.
BTW, Dobbs, I do agree with you on point 1. There was no point to carrying out the heist since they already talked to Albert Finney and got the egg. Duh!
posted by timyang at 10:15 PM on December 20, 2004
Hubba hubba. Any movie, no matter how dumb, is worth watchin for that.
BTW, Dobbs, I do agree with you on point 1. There was no point to carrying out the heist since they already talked to Albert Finney and got the egg. Duh!
posted by timyang at 10:15 PM on December 20, 2004
I saw it last weekend, so my memory of an already confusing movie is pretty terrible.
The best I can offer for #1 is that it didn't make sense, other than to show how "great" the "12" were. The movie drags along, then *BAM* - "oh actually what you were just watching - well actually it really happened like this - what a twist! We sure had you going!" which is apparently a nod to Godard.
posted by Quartermass at 10:21 PM on December 20, 2004
The best I can offer for #1 is that it didn't make sense, other than to show how "great" the "12" were. The movie drags along, then *BAM* - "oh actually what you were just watching - well actually it really happened like this - what a twist! We sure had you going!" which is apparently a nod to Godard.
posted by Quartermass at 10:21 PM on December 20, 2004
Paraphrasing: WTF?
The problem I have with this movie is that the thieves are simply too good. There's never any doubt that they're going to pull it off, somehow, which makes the entire movie a masturbation-fest of "Look how cooool I am. Everything I do is effortless." But I'll try and answer your questions.
1. The heist that Julia Roberts participates in... why do they bother with it?
It's kinda like an initiation with the n00b. If he pulls it off, they'd be impressed, but it doesn't matter one way or the other.
how they hell is this even possible by simply grabbing it? What makes them think the base is gonna just lift off?
Questions like this are traditionally answered with, "they did fabulous re-con." You could make the same case in Oceans 11 -- just because they got a blueprint of the vault means they suddenly know everything about the casino? Come on! I guess the movie-makers were concerned with time, and didn't want to bore us with all the nitty-gritty details of their surveilance.
Two minutes? Um, what the hell good is that?
I've got no clue. Apparently holography has advanced to Star Trek levels in the past years, but battery technology is still in the dark ages. Not that these guys would need more than two minutes, anyway, because, you know, they're so good.
Who was that getting Frank out of the prison at the end?
It looks like the guy that's with Benedict when they pick Frank up from his salon at the beginning, only bald. Maybe it's the same guy in the original movie -- he was working with Benedict, but was a double-agent, so it might make sense. Kinda.
I realize it's just a stupid Hollywood heist flick and I shouldn't be asking too much of it but it's been a long time since I've been this disappointed with a movie so.... I'm asking.
I was pretty disappointed, too. I'm just glad I didn't spend $10.00 to watch it in a theater.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 10:22 PM on December 20, 2004
The problem I have with this movie is that the thieves are simply too good. There's never any doubt that they're going to pull it off, somehow, which makes the entire movie a masturbation-fest of "Look how cooool I am. Everything I do is effortless." But I'll try and answer your questions.
1. The heist that Julia Roberts participates in... why do they bother with it?
It's kinda like an initiation with the n00b. If he pulls it off, they'd be impressed, but it doesn't matter one way or the other.
how they hell is this even possible by simply grabbing it? What makes them think the base is gonna just lift off?
Questions like this are traditionally answered with, "they did fabulous re-con." You could make the same case in Oceans 11 -- just because they got a blueprint of the vault means they suddenly know everything about the casino? Come on! I guess the movie-makers were concerned with time, and didn't want to bore us with all the nitty-gritty details of their surveilance.
Two minutes? Um, what the hell good is that?
I've got no clue. Apparently holography has advanced to Star Trek levels in the past years, but battery technology is still in the dark ages. Not that these guys would need more than two minutes, anyway, because, you know, they're so good.
Who was that getting Frank out of the prison at the end?
It looks like the guy that's with Benedict when they pick Frank up from his salon at the beginning, only bald. Maybe it's the same guy in the original movie -- he was working with Benedict, but was a double-agent, so it might make sense. Kinda.
I realize it's just a stupid Hollywood heist flick and I shouldn't be asking too much of it but it's been a long time since I've been this disappointed with a movie so.... I'm asking.
I was pretty disappointed, too. I'm just glad I didn't spend $10.00 to watch it in a theater.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 10:22 PM on December 20, 2004
Oh, and don't even get me started about the inane concept of raising an entire building just to get line-of-sight for their fancy bow-and-arrow. Why not just put on their fancy invisibility cape and storm the place?
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 10:27 PM on December 20, 2004
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 10:27 PM on December 20, 2004
Response by poster: Thanks, all. I thought I was off my tree. (There was this drunk guy in the theatre yelling at all the characters. He was mildly entertaining and after the flick the manager credited me as a result so it was free--but I thought that I missed something while laughing at the idiot.)
It's kinda like an initiation with the n00b. If he pulls it off, they'd be impressed, but it doesn't matter one way or the other.
What noob? The only noob was Julia. Unless you're talking about taking Linus to the next level or something. Ugh.
And SoftRain, I love the Limey, but a bulk of that credit I give to the superior writing of Lem Dobbs' script.
posted by dobbs at 10:38 PM on December 20, 2004
It's kinda like an initiation with the n00b. If he pulls it off, they'd be impressed, but it doesn't matter one way or the other.
What noob? The only noob was Julia. Unless you're talking about taking Linus to the next level or something. Ugh.
And SoftRain, I love the Limey, but a bulk of that credit I give to the superior writing of Lem Dobbs' script.
posted by dobbs at 10:38 PM on December 20, 2004
alight, here we go.
1. At the end of the movie, they mention that they needed to appear to be stealing the egg because François Toulour (Vincent Cassel) was watching them the whole time. He had already tied into the camera system to watch the Ocean gang try to steal the egg. If they had just went up to François with the egg, we also wouldn't have a movie. It also gave Linus (Damon) a chance to become one of the leaders of the group.
2.
a. The holder for the egg is part of the platform, when they grab the egg, they actually grabbed the holder too and lifted off the base and replaced it.
b They wanted to get caught. It gave a chance for them to get their names cleared and for Rusty Ryan (Pitt) to get together with Isabel Lahiri (Jones) so that he could take her to her father.
3. The guy getting Frank out of prison was Bruiser who was a friend of Danny's (Clooney) who helped him out in the Benedict heist. He's someone they trust and it was funny to have him come back for the movie.
4. Albert Finney's character La Marque is in reality Isabel's father. She had said her father was a criminal, and that he told her stories of the best robberies, including his own. He wanted to help Rusty (Pitt) because he liked him and Rusty was going to bring Isabel to him as well. He also helped out because of the way that François had brought them out, against the code of thieves.
All in all, I really enjoyed this movie, it was not your average heist movie and had a really good hook. They made it as a film they could all enjoy making instead of worrying about a perfect movie. My only complaints are that the dance sequence by François at the end was a little contrived and that all of the minor characters (besides Clooney, Pitt, Jones) had very little to do again.
Hope to have answered your questions, my film degree is now coming in handy.
On preview: the raising the building thing was a little bit crazy, but fun to watch and they needed to use Yen somewhere.
posted by Derek at 10:40 PM on December 20, 2004
1. At the end of the movie, they mention that they needed to appear to be stealing the egg because François Toulour (Vincent Cassel) was watching them the whole time. He had already tied into the camera system to watch the Ocean gang try to steal the egg. If they had just went up to François with the egg, we also wouldn't have a movie. It also gave Linus (Damon) a chance to become one of the leaders of the group.
2.
a. The holder for the egg is part of the platform, when they grab the egg, they actually grabbed the holder too and lifted off the base and replaced it.
b They wanted to get caught. It gave a chance for them to get their names cleared and for Rusty Ryan (Pitt) to get together with Isabel Lahiri (Jones) so that he could take her to her father.
3. The guy getting Frank out of prison was Bruiser who was a friend of Danny's (Clooney) who helped him out in the Benedict heist. He's someone they trust and it was funny to have him come back for the movie.
4. Albert Finney's character La Marque is in reality Isabel's father. She had said her father was a criminal, and that he told her stories of the best robberies, including his own. He wanted to help Rusty (Pitt) because he liked him and Rusty was going to bring Isabel to him as well. He also helped out because of the way that François had brought them out, against the code of thieves.
All in all, I really enjoyed this movie, it was not your average heist movie and had a really good hook. They made it as a film they could all enjoy making instead of worrying about a perfect movie. My only complaints are that the dance sequence by François at the end was a little contrived and that all of the minor characters (besides Clooney, Pitt, Jones) had very little to do again.
Hope to have answered your questions, my film degree is now coming in handy.
On preview: the raising the building thing was a little bit crazy, but fun to watch and they needed to use Yen somewhere.
posted by Derek at 10:40 PM on December 20, 2004
Response by poster: At the end of the movie, they mention that they needed to appear to be stealing the egg because François Toulour (Vincent Cassel) was watching them the whole time.
Which also doesn't make any sense as he himself already stole the egg (he thinks) so the contest is over.
If they had just went up to François with the egg, we also wouldn't have a movie.
Basically, it sounds like they did the heist for the benefit of the audience, not the characters, which is bloody pointless.
They wanted to get caught. It gave a chance for them to get their names cleared
How is getting caught pulling a heist a way of clearing one's name? If their names were cleared they wouldn't have had to have that bogus "break out of jail" scam with Linus' mother.
they needed to use Yen somewhere
Speaking of.. wtf did they put him in the bag and put him on a bus? I assume him getting lost was not part of the plan... so what the hell was the plan and how come they didn't have to come up with a new one once they lost their grease man?
All in all, I really enjoyed this movie, it was not your average heist movie and had a really good hook.
Not to be a snark but... what hook? Owing Benedict the money?
posted by dobbs at 10:53 PM on December 20, 2004
Which also doesn't make any sense as he himself already stole the egg (he thinks) so the contest is over.
If they had just went up to François with the egg, we also wouldn't have a movie.
Basically, it sounds like they did the heist for the benefit of the audience, not the characters, which is bloody pointless.
They wanted to get caught. It gave a chance for them to get their names cleared
How is getting caught pulling a heist a way of clearing one's name? If their names were cleared they wouldn't have had to have that bogus "break out of jail" scam with Linus' mother.
they needed to use Yen somewhere
Speaking of.. wtf did they put him in the bag and put him on a bus? I assume him getting lost was not part of the plan... so what the hell was the plan and how come they didn't have to come up with a new one once they lost their grease man?
All in all, I really enjoyed this movie, it was not your average heist movie and had a really good hook.
Not to be a snark but... what hook? Owing Benedict the money?
posted by dobbs at 10:53 PM on December 20, 2004
Which also doesn't make any sense as he himself already stole the egg (he thinks) so the contest is over. Basically, it sounds like they did the heist for the benefit of the audience, not the characters, which is bloody pointless.
Yes, but La Marque wanted them to put on the show for François.
They wanted to get caught. It gave a chance for them to get their names cleared
I mistyped, but I did mean the part about getting Isabel and Dusty togeather.
they needed to use Yen somewhere
Speaking of.. wtf did they put him in the bag and put him on a bus? I assume him getting lost was not part of the plan... so what the hell was the plan and how come they didn't have to come up with a new one once they lost their grease man?
They needed to hide him since he was fingered in the investigation, so when they went outside they were just going to bring him on the bus, but they guy grabbed the bag and put it on the bus.
Not to be a snark but... what hook? Owing Benedict the money?
No problem, the hook for me was the contest between two great criminals.
There's another level to this movie with Dusty trying to convice Isabel not to rebel against her criminal instincts. She was born to steal and Dusty wanted to bring that out in her.
posted by Derek at 11:05 PM on December 20, 2004
Yes, but La Marque wanted them to put on the show for François.
They wanted to get caught. It gave a chance for them to get their names cleared
I mistyped, but I did mean the part about getting Isabel and Dusty togeather.
they needed to use Yen somewhere
Speaking of.. wtf did they put him in the bag and put him on a bus? I assume him getting lost was not part of the plan... so what the hell was the plan and how come they didn't have to come up with a new one once they lost their grease man?
They needed to hide him since he was fingered in the investigation, so when they went outside they were just going to bring him on the bus, but they guy grabbed the bag and put it on the bus.
Not to be a snark but... what hook? Owing Benedict the money?
No problem, the hook for me was the contest between two great criminals.
There's another level to this movie with Dusty trying to convice Isabel not to rebel against her criminal instincts. She was born to steal and Dusty wanted to bring that out in her.
posted by Derek at 11:05 PM on December 20, 2004
Response by poster: They needed to hide him since he was fingered in the investigation, so when they went outside they were just going to bring him on the bus, but they guy grabbed the bag and put it on the bus.
Huh? You mean, because the police had that sketch drawing of him? If so... they also had visuals on some of the others. None of them got stuffed in a bag. :) Why couldn't they have just put left him in a hotel room or put him on a plane out of there if that was the motivation? No, it seems to me that that bag was supposed to end up somewhere that would have had something to do with the heist (just like when he was in the portable cash vault in the first movie.
And where the hell were they going on the bus? They were all wearing the same jackets which were for some soccer team or something. WTF?!
Ugh. The movie makes less and less sense the more I think about it. My screenwriting prof woulda tossed George Nolfi out on his ear.
posted by dobbs at 11:14 PM on December 20, 2004
Huh? You mean, because the police had that sketch drawing of him? If so... they also had visuals on some of the others. None of them got stuffed in a bag. :) Why couldn't they have just put left him in a hotel room or put him on a plane out of there if that was the motivation? No, it seems to me that that bag was supposed to end up somewhere that would have had something to do with the heist (just like when he was in the portable cash vault in the first movie.
And where the hell were they going on the bus? They were all wearing the same jackets which were for some soccer team or something. WTF?!
Ugh. The movie makes less and less sense the more I think about it. My screenwriting prof woulda tossed George Nolfi out on his ear.
posted by dobbs at 11:14 PM on December 20, 2004
They had visuals on Yen, Danny, and Dusty. Yen hid in the bag, Danny and Dusty dressed with the team to get out of the hotel. The bus was going to the train station so they could get out of the country to retrive the egg on the train.
And... this is fun.
posted by Derek at 11:26 PM on December 20, 2004
And... this is fun.
posted by Derek at 11:26 PM on December 20, 2004
Response by poster: So if Danny and Rusty (not dusty) could just get on the bus why did they have to put Yen in a bag?
posted by dobbs at 1:07 AM on December 21, 2004
posted by dobbs at 1:07 AM on December 21, 2004
Yea, Rusty...
As far as I could tell, there were no small football players on the team and a uniform wouldn't have fit him. Plus, he was the only asian guy that I had seen in the whole area during that part of the movie. They might have figured him to be easier to spot.
posted by Derek at 1:22 AM on December 21, 2004
As far as I could tell, there were no small football players on the team and a uniform wouldn't have fit him. Plus, he was the only asian guy that I had seen in the whole area during that part of the movie. They might have figured him to be easier to spot.
posted by Derek at 1:22 AM on December 21, 2004
Did anybody understand the cryptic converstion in the Amsterdam cafe, where Damon's character commits some sort of faux-pas? His mom later refers to it as "lost in translation".
posted by signal at 8:12 AM on December 21, 2004
posted by signal at 8:12 AM on December 21, 2004
"lost in translation" turned out to be Matsui(Coltrane's) way of messing with Linus because he's new. In other words, funny at the time, but not really making any sense. Like the rest of the movie.
posted by Paddle to Sea at 8:35 AM on December 21, 2004
posted by Paddle to Sea at 8:35 AM on December 21, 2004
They were all wearing the same jackets which were for some soccer team or something.
Yeah, it was a shitty movie, and this scene clinched it: Like Arsenal, the British footballers, aren't going to notice the new guys? Money must've changed hands: it would have been nice to see it. This movie was a big WTF.
And Bruce Willis and Marcy can kiss my ass
posted by Mo Nickels at 8:53 AM on December 21, 2004
Yeah, it was a shitty movie, and this scene clinched it: Like Arsenal, the British footballers, aren't going to notice the new guys? Money must've changed hands: it would have been nice to see it. This movie was a big WTF.
And Bruce Willis and Marcy can kiss my ass
posted by Mo Nickels at 8:53 AM on December 21, 2004
I just wish I could get my money back after watching it. It was a terrible self-indulgent flick, with no friggn' point. If you have to discuss this much just to get an idea of what this movie was about... do you really have a good movie? It wasn't really funny, it wasn't really exciting, it wasn't really anything...
And don't even get me started on the dance scene. It's been done before for one thing (Entrapment anyone?) They could have just put infrared lasers in a nice, tight grid on the door at the end of the corridor. Who in hell would put bright blue lasers moving in 'random', slow fashion? Hell, just speed the damn things up, it's not like the electronics are slow. (Don't even ask me how the lasers set up this way would detect an intruder.)
posted by defcom1 at 9:34 AM on December 21, 2004
And don't even get me started on the dance scene. It's been done before for one thing (Entrapment anyone?) They could have just put infrared lasers in a nice, tight grid on the door at the end of the corridor. Who in hell would put bright blue lasers moving in 'random', slow fashion? Hell, just speed the damn things up, it's not like the electronics are slow. (Don't even ask me how the lasers set up this way would detect an intruder.)
posted by defcom1 at 9:34 AM on December 21, 2004
THE REASON THEY HAD TO GO THROUGH WITH THE FAKE HEIST WAS BECAUSE LAMARQUE WANTED HIS DAUGHTER BACK and that was how, he believed, she would realize that she was really sympathetic with the master thieves rather than the police.
And, yes, it was the guy who pretended to beat up Danny in O11 who got Frank out of prison in O12. It was just a simple sight gag, don't try to read into it.
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:00 AM on December 21, 2004 [1 favorite]
And, yes, it was the guy who pretended to beat up Danny in O11 who got Frank out of prison in O12. It was just a simple sight gag, don't try to read into it.
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:00 AM on December 21, 2004 [1 favorite]
I liked it. But I love caper movies.
And "Not enough people. Anyway, we can't train a cat that fast" is one of the great lines of the year.
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:01 AM on December 21, 2004 [1 favorite]
And "Not enough people. Anyway, we can't train a cat that fast" is one of the great lines of the year.
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:01 AM on December 21, 2004 [1 favorite]
I wasn't going to see the movie (the first one disappointed me too much and I, unlike dobbs, think Soderbergh can be very good), hence I wanted to thank you guys -- reading this thread demonstrates that I made the right choice. one question: what about Cassel? he sometimes is very effective but I haven't yet decided if he's as good as some say. is he any good here?
but a bulk of that credit I give to the superior writing of Lem Dobbs' script.
posted by dobbs
ah the irony. ;)
who doesn't love the Sierra Madre, anyway
posted by matteo at 11:10 AM on December 21, 2004
but a bulk of that credit I give to the superior writing of Lem Dobbs' script.
posted by dobbs
ah the irony. ;)
who doesn't love the Sierra Madre, anyway
posted by matteo at 11:10 AM on December 21, 2004
Response by poster: Hey, I don't have anything against Soderbergh. I've seen every movie he's made and only hate a couple (O12, Solaris, King of the Hill). I love the Limey, Schizopolis, Sex Lies, and like the others.
And yeah, Lem Dobbs actually did take his surname from FC Dobbs of Madre.
posted by dobbs at 2:23 PM on December 21, 2004
And yeah, Lem Dobbs actually did take his surname from FC Dobbs of Madre.
posted by dobbs at 2:23 PM on December 21, 2004
Cassel is good here, though it's a caper movie and nobody really has much to do (Brad Pitt and Matt Damon have the best scenes, together and individually).
posted by Sidhedevil at 6:11 PM on December 21, 2004
posted by Sidhedevil at 6:11 PM on December 21, 2004
This thread is closed to new comments.
4. Why did the Albert Finney character want to help them win the contest?
posted by dobbs at 9:49 PM on December 20, 2004