learning german and I have a couple of questions
April 21, 2009 1:42 PM Subscribe
Learning German, couple of questions...
1. I do not pronounce R like I should (i.e. tongue on top of mouth, like an L). Instead I cheat and use my lips. I'm so good at this that nobody can tell in English, but it seems in German it's critical and far less forgiving (for example, "Es freut mich"). Is this going to stop me being understood?
2. As a side-question, does anybody know of any good German language-learning online resources? I'm looking for a translation engine that I can set for male/female responses, in particular, but anything of interest will be helpful.
1. I do not pronounce R like I should (i.e. tongue on top of mouth, like an L). Instead I cheat and use my lips. I'm so good at this that nobody can tell in English, but it seems in German it's critical and far less forgiving (for example, "Es freut mich"). Is this going to stop me being understood?
2. As a side-question, does anybody know of any good German language-learning online resources? I'm looking for a translation engine that I can set for male/female responses, in particular, but anything of interest will be helpful.
Will it stop you from being understood? No, not most of the time. Also, most German rs are pronounced in the throat. For a word like "freut", I never had a problem with the lip-cheating; most words don't have sound combinations that make it as difficult to move to the back - it's just the combo of "f" and "oy". So: For most words, the r will be in the back of the throat. For the ones where that's impossible, don't worry about cheating with your lips.
The only online resource I know of is dict.leo.org, which is a fantastic bi-directional dictionary with a strong user presence in the forums.
On Preview: freddymetz's #1 is true. Don't sound too German unless you're training to be a NOC with the CIA.
posted by Picklegnome at 1:49 PM on April 21, 2009
The only online resource I know of is dict.leo.org, which is a fantastic bi-directional dictionary with a strong user presence in the forums.
On Preview: freddymetz's #1 is true. Don't sound too German unless you're training to be a NOC with the CIA.
posted by Picklegnome at 1:49 PM on April 21, 2009
The front R is used only in southern Germany, Austria and Switserland, so if you want to speak "normal" German, you're better of using the throat-R Picklegnome mentioned. It's similar to an American R, only further down the throat and rolled a bit more in some positions.
If for some reason you decide you do want to sound like your avarage Bavarian, then one trick is to substitute the R with a D (Es fdeut mich).
It's not perfect , but it's a better option than cheating with your lips which will make you sound like an... well... american.
posted by Sourisnoire at 2:24 PM on April 21, 2009
If for some reason you decide you do want to sound like your avarage Bavarian, then one trick is to substitute the R with a D (Es fdeut mich).
It's not perfect , but it's a better option than cheating with your lips which will make you sound like an... well... american.
posted by Sourisnoire at 2:24 PM on April 21, 2009
I agree with Picklegnome's observation that most German r's are pronounced in the throat, almost like French r's. Of course this depends on its position in a word. In your example the "r" in "freut" would be pronounced like a French "r", whereas the "r" in "burg" is more a vowel sound (think "booag") then a consonant sound. In "ein großer Mann", there are two different "r" noises. Of course some regions pronounce "r" differently, etc.
I'm not sure what you mean by proper "r"'s being pronounced "tongue on top of mouth, like an L", but if the rest of your pronunciation is reasonably correct I'm sure you are understandable. I have never had any difficulty understanding people who mix "r" and "l" in English, for example.
posted by pravit at 2:31 PM on April 21, 2009
I'm not sure what you mean by proper "r"'s being pronounced "tongue on top of mouth, like an L", but if the rest of your pronunciation is reasonably correct I'm sure you are understandable. I have never had any difficulty understanding people who mix "r" and "l" in English, for example.
posted by pravit at 2:31 PM on April 21, 2009
Yeah, I have to agree with what everybody else said. I tried to obsess about my pronunciation when I first moved to Germany and then realized that as long as you're trying, everybody thinks it's endearing if you have an accent.
I'm also a big fan of http://dict.tu-chemnitz.de/
posted by atomly at 2:47 PM on April 21, 2009
I'm also a big fan of http://dict.tu-chemnitz.de/
posted by atomly at 2:47 PM on April 21, 2009
You'll be understood with a hard American (or harder Canadian) "R," but you really just need to practice. Try making an "r" sound while you're gargling- seriously- and you're "fast da."
Viel Glück!
posted by ethnomethodologist at 2:49 PM on April 21, 2009
Viel Glück!
posted by ethnomethodologist at 2:49 PM on April 21, 2009
The front R is used only in southern Germany, Austria and SwitZerland
Switzerland, yes, as well as in the Vorarlberg part of Austria, but in most of Austria (and Bavaria, as far as I can tell) they don't use a front R. I used to roll my R's like I was taught (Aberrrr..) until my girlfriend started veroasching me for it ("Aberrr! Bist du ein Schweizerrrr?")
Now I've found it's a lot easier (at least here, in the Austro-Bavarian Sprachraum) to almost swallow the R, so it comes out more like "Aba"... which is how the locals say it anyway. However, don't confuse this with the American R, which is more like a Pirate R. No, seriously.
posted by dunkadunc at 2:55 PM on April 21, 2009
Switzerland, yes, as well as in the Vorarlberg part of Austria, but in most of Austria (and Bavaria, as far as I can tell) they don't use a front R. I used to roll my R's like I was taught (Aberrrr..) until my girlfriend started veroasching me for it ("Aberrr! Bist du ein Schweizerrrr?")
Now I've found it's a lot easier (at least here, in the Austro-Bavarian Sprachraum) to almost swallow the R, so it comes out more like "Aba"... which is how the locals say it anyway. However, don't confuse this with the American R, which is more like a Pirate R. No, seriously.
posted by dunkadunc at 2:55 PM on April 21, 2009
I'll second what dunkadunc said about swallowing trailing Rs in words. Putting a hard R on the end will always sound VERY American. (Germans who can learn a terminal hard R are good at faking an American accent when speaking English. Those that don't, end up sound British.)
For R sounds in the middle of words, um... it's sort of like the Spanish rolled R, which is a good way to fake the real German R sound if your mouth is able to do that.
That said, isn't an R said without the tongue against the roof of your mouth just a W?
posted by hippybear at 4:07 PM on April 21, 2009
For R sounds in the middle of words, um... it's sort of like the Spanish rolled R, which is a good way to fake the real German R sound if your mouth is able to do that.
That said, isn't an R said without the tongue against the roof of your mouth just a W?
posted by hippybear at 4:07 PM on April 21, 2009
1) You'll be fine. There's a lot of regional variation (so many dialects!), and they'll have heard foreigners speaking German before. Honestly, my pronunciation can go a little erratic when I'm not paying attention (an American accent, reasonable Hochdeutsch, or occasionally a bit of Schwabian or Bavarian for various reasons), but I've never had anyone misunderstand me on account of my Rs.
2) I constantly have dict.leo.org open in Firefox, and for any word-specific grammar questions (conjugation, declension, etc.), canoo (which you can get to from the dict.leo.org entries) will be really, really helpful.
Viel Spaß!
posted by ubersturm at 9:33 PM on April 21, 2009
2) I constantly have dict.leo.org open in Firefox, and for any word-specific grammar questions (conjugation, declension, etc.), canoo (which you can get to from the dict.leo.org entries) will be really, really helpful.
Viel Spaß!
posted by ubersturm at 9:33 PM on April 21, 2009
1) doesn't matter at all. People will immediately know that you're an English speaker, though, and many will try to accomodate you by immediately switching to English (at least that's what I often do when someone has a hard time speaking German). If you want to have a conversation in German, you have to be persistent and tell them "Ich muss üben, damit mein Deutsch besser wird!"
2) I can't answer your specific question, sorry. But I've always found that humour is great for getting to know a language (many Germans owe a big part of their vocabulary to "Monty Python"!). I don't know whether your German is already good enough, but you could try and watch some Loriot (e.g. the famous Noodle). Loriot stuff should be good for language learning because the it's virtually dialect-free.
You can also watch German news here.
posted by The Toad at 1:29 AM on April 22, 2009
2) I can't answer your specific question, sorry. But I've always found that humour is great for getting to know a language (many Germans owe a big part of their vocabulary to "Monty Python"!). I don't know whether your German is already good enough, but you could try and watch some Loriot (e.g. the famous Noodle). Loriot stuff should be good for language learning because the it's virtually dialect-free.
You can also watch German news here.
posted by The Toad at 1:29 AM on April 22, 2009
I had a Geistesblitz regarding the German "r" the other day, due to an anecdote my Austrian girlfriend told me in German. I can't remember the exact details of the anecdote, but I can share the the gist, as well as the outcome.
The story was a true one about a little Austrian girl who my girlfriend knows. This little girl can't say her "r" properly, yet, and every time she tries, she makes more of an "h" sound. The little girl's family doesn't exactly tease her about it, but they like to ask her questions that have answers which are guaranteed to contain as many "r" sounds as possible.
The gist: if a child learning German has her native tongue uses an "h" sound for "r" while developing her speaking skills, it's probably a good trick for an adult to try, as well. My German "r" sound is already quite good, but I played around with my theory a little, and found that the "h" sound is a pretty close approximation of "r", if you make a bit of a "hocking" sound when you pronounce it. This "hocking h" sound is very similar to the "roll your r at the back of your throat" sound.
Give it a shot and see if it helps out. Out of the mouths of babes, und so weiter...
posted by syzygy at 5:16 AM on April 22, 2009
The story was a true one about a little Austrian girl who my girlfriend knows. This little girl can't say her "r" properly, yet, and every time she tries, she makes more of an "h" sound. The little girl's family doesn't exactly tease her about it, but they like to ask her questions that have answers which are guaranteed to contain as many "r" sounds as possible.
The gist: if a child learning German has her native tongue uses an "h" sound for "r" while developing her speaking skills, it's probably a good trick for an adult to try, as well. My German "r" sound is already quite good, but I played around with my theory a little, and found that the "h" sound is a pretty close approximation of "r", if you make a bit of a "hocking" sound when you pronounce it. This "hocking h" sound is very similar to the "roll your r at the back of your throat" sound.
Give it a shot and see if it helps out. Out of the mouths of babes, und so weiter...
posted by syzygy at 5:16 AM on April 22, 2009
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If you ever need a translation, synonyms etc dict.cc is the best resource in my opinion
posted by freddymetz at 1:48 PM on April 21, 2009