Friendship Breakup
March 17, 2009 3:17 PM Subscribe
Two months ago, I ended a friendship of 8 years. Romantic break ups are common place, but I only thought that an official friendship break up could happen on Seinfeld.
For the sake of anonymity, I'll call this friend "Diana".
Diana, some friends, and I got very drunk on my birthday. (This is the perfect way to start out any drama, right?) Upon getting plastered, someone I care about deeply, "Achilles", obeyed the rules of a drinking game and...exposed himself, and Diana took pictures. At the time we consented to the pictures because we were within the intimacy of friends,(and also very very drunk). During the event, while drunk, Achilles asked Diana to make absolute sure that the pictures didn't go online. He also asked her again, a week later at a different event, while we were less intoxicated, to not post the pictures on the internet.
What does she do? She posts the pictures.
Not only does she make the pictures quite available on the internet, but some of Achilles co-workers even see the pictures.
After this, I lose my mind with rage. Normally, I'm not a confrontational person at all, I'm the limpest dick of flaccid dorks. But in this occasion I had to suppress all urges of calling Diana up and unloading a storm of four letter words upon her. This of course, could only make things worse.
Yet I still wanted to let her know my feelings, sine the inappropriate language. Therefore, I sent her a letter explaining how hurt I was by her carelessness; How her actions embarrassed and degraded Achilles at his job; that I felt she had violated the trust of our friendship, and that I never wanted to speak or hear from her again.
Was this too harsh?
To speak for her side of the story to make this fair:
Achilles does have other more mildly embarrassing photos on the internet.
(But these pictures are simply of him drinking, and do not reach the level of immodesty that would catch co-worker attention.)
And, I should reiterate, Diana was intoxicated to some level both times Achilles asked her not to post the pictures.
However, I should also mention that this event was the straw that broke the camels back. She violates comfort zones frequently.
So, I thought I did the right thing.
However, there's more.
One of my closest friends, I'll call him "Apollo", is also one of Diana's best friends. By breaking up with her, and refusing to never see her again, I have effectively split our friends' group down the middle.
If he decides to have a get together at his place, he has to make the painful decision of which of his best friends will be uninvited. Same thing applies with going out to dinner, seeing a movie, etc. Basically, I have made his social life a balancing act and a migraine.
What should I do Meta-Filter?
I don't want to hang out with Diana anymore, but should I still apologize to Diana for dropping a nuke on her without even giving her the chance to make up?
I am concerned for how I can make life less complicated for Apollo, and less drama for all parties involved.
Thank you for reading this long, ambiguous rant.
For the sake of anonymity, I'll call this friend "Diana".
Diana, some friends, and I got very drunk on my birthday. (This is the perfect way to start out any drama, right?) Upon getting plastered, someone I care about deeply, "Achilles", obeyed the rules of a drinking game and...exposed himself, and Diana took pictures. At the time we consented to the pictures because we were within the intimacy of friends,(and also very very drunk). During the event, while drunk, Achilles asked Diana to make absolute sure that the pictures didn't go online. He also asked her again, a week later at a different event, while we were less intoxicated, to not post the pictures on the internet.
What does she do? She posts the pictures.
Not only does she make the pictures quite available on the internet, but some of Achilles co-workers even see the pictures.
After this, I lose my mind with rage. Normally, I'm not a confrontational person at all, I'm the limpest dick of flaccid dorks. But in this occasion I had to suppress all urges of calling Diana up and unloading a storm of four letter words upon her. This of course, could only make things worse.
Yet I still wanted to let her know my feelings, sine the inappropriate language. Therefore, I sent her a letter explaining how hurt I was by her carelessness; How her actions embarrassed and degraded Achilles at his job; that I felt she had violated the trust of our friendship, and that I never wanted to speak or hear from her again.
Was this too harsh?
To speak for her side of the story to make this fair:
Achilles does have other more mildly embarrassing photos on the internet.
(But these pictures are simply of him drinking, and do not reach the level of immodesty that would catch co-worker attention.)
And, I should reiterate, Diana was intoxicated to some level both times Achilles asked her not to post the pictures.
However, I should also mention that this event was the straw that broke the camels back. She violates comfort zones frequently.
So, I thought I did the right thing.
However, there's more.
One of my closest friends, I'll call him "Apollo", is also one of Diana's best friends. By breaking up with her, and refusing to never see her again, I have effectively split our friends' group down the middle.
If he decides to have a get together at his place, he has to make the painful decision of which of his best friends will be uninvited. Same thing applies with going out to dinner, seeing a movie, etc. Basically, I have made his social life a balancing act and a migraine.
What should I do Meta-Filter?
I don't want to hang out with Diana anymore, but should I still apologize to Diana for dropping a nuke on her without even giving her the chance to make up?
I am concerned for how I can make life less complicated for Apollo, and less drama for all parties involved.
Thank you for reading this long, ambiguous rant.
Well, I think that you were fair in getting pissed since you specifically asked her not to post the pictures. But you are worried about Apollo. To make his life easier, don't make him choose. As long as there are other people hanging out, talk to them and ignore her.
posted by xyla2000 at 3:25 PM on March 17, 2009
posted by xyla2000 at 3:25 PM on March 17, 2009
If one of your friends did something you think was reprehensible, then it only makes sense that you would no longer want to be friends with her. If your letter to Diana was as calm as clear as you describe, then you needn't apologize -- you are not responsible for her reaction. You also don't need to justify her actions for her.
As for Apollo, it is not for you to decide how he acts. Again, you're not responsible for him, or his comfort levels. However, in time, you might be willing to be in the same place at the same time as Diana, and you might be able to be civil, though I'd guess that your friendship with her is already altered.
And lastly, don't get drunk and take nekkid photos. It's only going to lead to drama.
posted by runningwithscissors at 3:27 PM on March 17, 2009
As for Apollo, it is not for you to decide how he acts. Again, you're not responsible for him, or his comfort levels. However, in time, you might be willing to be in the same place at the same time as Diana, and you might be able to be civil, though I'd guess that your friendship with her is already altered.
And lastly, don't get drunk and take nekkid photos. It's only going to lead to drama.
posted by runningwithscissors at 3:27 PM on March 17, 2009
Over. Reacting.
Yeah, what she did was inexcusable. But friends forgive each other, you know? And forgiving someone means forgetting their transgressions even and especially when they don't have an excuse for them. Being friends with someone as long as they maintain good standards of behavior isn't a particularly charitable way to go through life. Besides, would you want yourself to be held the kind of standard you're setting for "Diana"? Okay, so maybe you don't post naked pictures of people online. I'm sure if you're honest with yourself you can think of a few decisions you've regretted that you wish other people would let slide. How can you want this for yourself and not offer it to "Diana"?
You would have been wrong not to tell her how upset this made you--though you made the right choice in not making that phone call--because friends communicate with each other. If something really bothers you, there needs to be a conversation about that if the friendship is going to endure. But telling her you never want to see her again? That's the kind of thing I'd expect from things like they, I don't know, molested your child or something like that. As there don't seem to be any permanent consequences beyond mild embarrassment as a result of "Diana's" indiscretion, imposing permanent consequences in your friendship seems unwarranted. Somehow what happened here doesn't strike me as the kind of thing that merits the level of response you've taken.
Call "Diana." Ask her to get coffee with you. Apologize for overreacting. And move forwards. Unless Diana refuses to meet you halfway here--friendship is a two-way street after all--and won't let you live down your rather rash letter response, there doesn't seem to be anything here that would prevent you from continuing to be friends other than your own pride. Swallow it.
posted by valkyryn at 3:29 PM on March 17, 2009 [2 favorites]
Yeah, what she did was inexcusable. But friends forgive each other, you know? And forgiving someone means forgetting their transgressions even and especially when they don't have an excuse for them. Being friends with someone as long as they maintain good standards of behavior isn't a particularly charitable way to go through life. Besides, would you want yourself to be held the kind of standard you're setting for "Diana"? Okay, so maybe you don't post naked pictures of people online. I'm sure if you're honest with yourself you can think of a few decisions you've regretted that you wish other people would let slide. How can you want this for yourself and not offer it to "Diana"?
You would have been wrong not to tell her how upset this made you--though you made the right choice in not making that phone call--because friends communicate with each other. If something really bothers you, there needs to be a conversation about that if the friendship is going to endure. But telling her you never want to see her again? That's the kind of thing I'd expect from things like they, I don't know, molested your child or something like that. As there don't seem to be any permanent consequences beyond mild embarrassment as a result of "Diana's" indiscretion, imposing permanent consequences in your friendship seems unwarranted. Somehow what happened here doesn't strike me as the kind of thing that merits the level of response you've taken.
Call "Diana." Ask her to get coffee with you. Apologize for overreacting. And move forwards. Unless Diana refuses to meet you halfway here--friendship is a two-way street after all--and won't let you live down your rather rash letter response, there doesn't seem to be anything here that would prevent you from continuing to be friends other than your own pride. Swallow it.
posted by valkyryn at 3:29 PM on March 17, 2009 [2 favorites]
I knew, even before reviewing your history to confirm, that you are all very young. Honestly, your biggest mistake here is getting so involved in other people's problems. What Diana does with her pictures and what Achilles does when he's drunk and what Apollo does with his parties- none of these things are your concern. You should worry about you. If you don't want to hang out with Diana anymore, don't. But if you're really going to follow through on the threat to NEVER SPEAK TO HER AGAIN, you have to take responsibility for not seeing her. Don't push that on Apollo.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:29 PM on March 17, 2009 [19 favorites]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:29 PM on March 17, 2009 [19 favorites]
This is between Diana and Achilles. Don't take sides, or an all-out war will ensure (and it looks like it already has.)
And don't get drunk around a Facebook-happy shutterbug.
posted by Flying Squirrel at 3:35 PM on March 17, 2009
And don't get drunk around a Facebook-happy shutterbug.
posted by Flying Squirrel at 3:35 PM on March 17, 2009
Let me first say that I think you did the right thing. People who can't respect the boundaries of their friends should not be able to keep them as friends.
That said, I've found that "unfriending" people only works in Cyberspace. If a person insists on being remorselessly disrespectful, the best thing to do is just stop hanging out with them. Distance yourself in a way that is not necessarily a mandate or a proclamation, because that then puts the burden on your friends. If the person insists on knowing why you don't want to hang out with them anymore, there's no point in lying, but there's also no point in making it so public that friends then have to "choose."
It's an awkward situation now, but there's nothing to do but soldier on ahead. Circles of friends are never set in stone, and they lose and add people all the time. It may now seem like there's a void or rift, but there will be other new people to fill that void. I would also note that you are the only one saying that he will have to invite the one or the other of you. It will make you the mature and graceful one to go to a party where she is and refuse to engage in any drama, however since you initiated the breakup in the first place, that might lead to drama.
Short Answer: You did the right thing. Long answer: next time you're faced with a situation like this, don't declare, just phase the person out. It's a lot easier on everyone.
posted by orville sash at 3:35 PM on March 17, 2009 [2 favorites]
That said, I've found that "unfriending" people only works in Cyberspace. If a person insists on being remorselessly disrespectful, the best thing to do is just stop hanging out with them. Distance yourself in a way that is not necessarily a mandate or a proclamation, because that then puts the burden on your friends. If the person insists on knowing why you don't want to hang out with them anymore, there's no point in lying, but there's also no point in making it so public that friends then have to "choose."
It's an awkward situation now, but there's nothing to do but soldier on ahead. Circles of friends are never set in stone, and they lose and add people all the time. It may now seem like there's a void or rift, but there will be other new people to fill that void. I would also note that you are the only one saying that he will have to invite the one or the other of you. It will make you the mature and graceful one to go to a party where she is and refuse to engage in any drama, however since you initiated the breakup in the first place, that might lead to drama.
Short Answer: You did the right thing. Long answer: next time you're faced with a situation like this, don't declare, just phase the person out. It's a lot easier on everyone.
posted by orville sash at 3:35 PM on March 17, 2009 [2 favorites]
Diana was drunk when she was asked not to post the pictures. Both times.
She was drunk.
Not the time to ask people to do or not to do important things.
It seems like you're probably overreacting. You did mention that she pushes boundaries, but that may just be her personality. Or maybe there was some miscommunication. Did you ever, during your friendship, call her out or just communicate with her about the boundary-pushing?
I agree with valkyryn, ask her to coffee and see how that goes.
posted by cmgonzalez at 3:36 PM on March 17, 2009
She was drunk.
Not the time to ask people to do or not to do important things.
It seems like you're probably overreacting. You did mention that she pushes boundaries, but that may just be her personality. Or maybe there was some miscommunication. Did you ever, during your friendship, call her out or just communicate with her about the boundary-pushing?
I agree with valkyryn, ask her to coffee and see how that goes.
posted by cmgonzalez at 3:36 PM on March 17, 2009
I have been in a similar situation, and you know what I did? I stopped hanging out with all of them. In your case, this would make it easier for "Apollo" and you'd be finished with "Diana" also. It's easier said than done, though.
I have done the same, but I hang out with people individually and tell them they don't have to invite me to group things. In the case of weddings or other large events, everyone knows me well enough that I can be civil.
posted by spec80 at 3:36 PM on March 17, 2009
I have done the same, but I hang out with people individually and tell them they don't have to invite me to group things. In the case of weddings or other large events, everyone knows me well enough that I can be civil.
posted by spec80 at 3:36 PM on March 17, 2009
Yet I still wanted to let her know my feelings, sine the inappropriate language. Therefore, I sent her a letter explaining how hurt I was by her carelessness; How her actions embarrassed and degraded Achilles at his job; that I felt she had violated the trust of our friendship, and that I never wanted to speak or hear from her again.
Was this too harsh?
Stick to your guns.
posted by Ironmouth at 3:38 PM on March 17, 2009
Was this too harsh?
Stick to your guns.
posted by Ironmouth at 3:38 PM on March 17, 2009
You haven't done anything wrong. Everyone's written angry letters at some point; it's one of life's joys. Whether you can remain friends after you've both cooled off is a separate question entirely.
Now: I don't care if someone *is* drunk when they're asked not to publish pictures of their friend's cock. If they can't remember whether they were asked not to post pictures of cock, good sober judgement should generally lie on the side of not posting pictures of your friend's cock on the internet.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 3:40 PM on March 17, 2009 [14 favorites]
Now: I don't care if someone *is* drunk when they're asked not to publish pictures of their friend's cock. If they can't remember whether they were asked not to post pictures of cock, good sober judgement should generally lie on the side of not posting pictures of your friend's cock on the internet.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 3:40 PM on March 17, 2009 [14 favorites]
I think you've overreacted. Taking nekkid photos is pretty silly, but you were all involved with this and you asked her not to post them in another inebriated soiree. You should have spoken to "Diana" when you were sober. If I were you I would take a deep breath and talk to "Diana" and see if you can work this out. Of course if you don't ever want to speak to her again, then that's your business, but it all just screams drama. This may seem harsh but I see immaturity in all sides here. Also kudos for the Greek mythological references, could I put in a request for Norse should there be a need to ask anything similar again?
posted by ob at 3:40 PM on March 17, 2009
posted by ob at 3:40 PM on March 17, 2009
Diana was drunk when she was asked not to post the pictures. Both times.That's true, but do people seriously have to be asked not to post pictures of you naked online, without explicitly making sure it's OK with you?
She was drunk.
Not the time to ask people to do or not to do important things.
It doesn't matter that she was drunk when she was asked not to. She shouldn't have needed to have been asked not to in the first place.
posted by Flunkie at 3:44 PM on March 17, 2009 [5 favorites]
Get better friends.
Or yeah, slow down on the drinking. Or both.
Seriously? Friendships end over all sorts of things. I recently ended one over someone being an asshole to another friend of mine. Life's too short to hang out with people you're wary of and don't trust. So don't worry about it. Maybe she'll learn that a good basic rule in life is that not everyone will find it funny if you post their naked pictures on the internet without their consent.
However, it does sound like you are fighting someone else's battle here. If this was a situation where you looked at Diana and saw this happen and said to yourself "You know, I just don't have respect for someone who does this stuff," then all well and good. If you were doing it out of some chivalrous defense or sense of loyalty to Achilles, then you might be buying into some drama that's really not about you - and you don't need to do that. You're only responsible for yourself and the friendships you choose to maintain.
But I don't think you're overreacting. I think it's a shitty thing to do and can't imagine hanging out with people who would do that. If this means you have a different social life going forward, I'm not sure how great a loss that is.
posted by Miko at 3:52 PM on March 17, 2009 [2 favorites]
Or yeah, slow down on the drinking. Or both.
Seriously? Friendships end over all sorts of things. I recently ended one over someone being an asshole to another friend of mine. Life's too short to hang out with people you're wary of and don't trust. So don't worry about it. Maybe she'll learn that a good basic rule in life is that not everyone will find it funny if you post their naked pictures on the internet without their consent.
However, it does sound like you are fighting someone else's battle here. If this was a situation where you looked at Diana and saw this happen and said to yourself "You know, I just don't have respect for someone who does this stuff," then all well and good. If you were doing it out of some chivalrous defense or sense of loyalty to Achilles, then you might be buying into some drama that's really not about you - and you don't need to do that. You're only responsible for yourself and the friendships you choose to maintain.
But I don't think you're overreacting. I think it's a shitty thing to do and can't imagine hanging out with people who would do that. If this means you have a different social life going forward, I'm not sure how great a loss that is.
posted by Miko at 3:52 PM on March 17, 2009 [2 favorites]
I don't think you're overreacting. Anyone who assumes that it's okay to post naked photos of their friends online, regardless of whether they were drunk when they were asked not to, is either an asshole or an idiot. I know I prefer to be friends with neither. She wasn't drunk when she posted the photos (I'm assuming from the context), so she really has no excuse.
In this day and age, those who use the internet to post pictures probably know enough about the internet to understand the possible repercussions of embarrassing photos existing online.
posted by fructose at 3:52 PM on March 17, 2009 [2 favorites]
In this day and age, those who use the internet to post pictures probably know enough about the internet to understand the possible repercussions of embarrassing photos existing online.
posted by fructose at 3:52 PM on March 17, 2009 [2 favorites]
I think the never talking to her again part was pretty extreme. You say you've been friends with this person for 8 years. That's a lot of time to throw away over something that didn't even happen to you. Give it some time and get some perspective before throwing in the towel.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 3:53 PM on March 17, 2009
posted by The Light Fantastic at 3:53 PM on March 17, 2009
I think forgiveness is a good thing and if Diana attempts to apologize to you, I think you should absolutely hear her out.
That said, I see no reason to hang out with her if you don't trust her or feel uncomfortable around her. She embarrassed and hurt your friend. While it may be inconvenient for the other people in your social group, surely they should be happy that you're loyal to your friends.
posted by shesbookish at 3:56 PM on March 17, 2009
That said, I see no reason to hang out with her if you don't trust her or feel uncomfortable around her. She embarrassed and hurt your friend. While it may be inconvenient for the other people in your social group, surely they should be happy that you're loyal to your friends.
posted by shesbookish at 3:56 PM on March 17, 2009
That's true, but do people seriously have to be asked not to post pictures of you naked online, without explicitly making sure it's OK with you?
No, because I'm responsible enough to make sure not to put myself in such situations. Sure, it's common sense not to post them, but it's also common sense not to get drunk and naked when there are cameras around. Nobody's innocent here.
However, asking someone to do something important should not be done while that party was drunk. That's a basic point applicable to many situations.
posted by cmgonzalez at 3:57 PM on March 17, 2009
No, because I'm responsible enough to make sure not to put myself in such situations. Sure, it's common sense not to post them, but it's also common sense not to get drunk and naked when there are cameras around. Nobody's innocent here.
However, asking someone to do something important should not be done while that party was drunk. That's a basic point applicable to many situations.
posted by cmgonzalez at 3:57 PM on March 17, 2009
next time you're faced with a situation like this, don't declare, just phase the person out. It's a lot easier on everyone.
No it isn't, especially when a close friend of eight years suddenly isn't being invited places, called, included, etc. People can tell. And it's almost emotionally abusive in a way.
I'd argue "phasing someone out" hurts worse than putting things directly and out in the open.
posted by cmgonzalez at 4:20 PM on March 17, 2009 [2 favorites]
No it isn't, especially when a close friend of eight years suddenly isn't being invited places, called, included, etc. People can tell. And it's almost emotionally abusive in a way.
I'd argue "phasing someone out" hurts worse than putting things directly and out in the open.
posted by cmgonzalez at 4:20 PM on March 17, 2009 [2 favorites]
Man, I see where you're coming from, but the first thing that comes to mind is that there was this controversy of the photos that had--actually--nothing to do with you, and you made it your business. Certainly you should voice displeasure at this behavior if you want, but beyond that you are seeing that getting involved can get you more complications. You said your peace, now let the chips fall. Apollo is his own person and can make his own decisions about what both Diana and you have done.
posted by rhizome at 4:43 PM on March 17, 2009
posted by rhizome at 4:43 PM on March 17, 2009
I am concerned for how I can make life less complicated for Apollo, and less drama for all parties involved.
No, you're not. If you were, you wouldn't have dropped a bomb on a friend for something that wasn't about YOU. Yes, the pictures were taken of your party. They were not, however, OF you. YOU were not the one personally embarrassed by them.
Yes, you had the right to tell your friend that this was a total dick move.
No, you were not justified in telling her you never wanted to hear from her. If you really, truly, wanted to keep the drama to a minimum you would have butted out after telling her that you really thought this was shitty.
People make stupid mistakes all the time. You admit that it was stupid to get wicked drunk and have pictures taken. She was even stupider to upload them. And you were stupid to tell her you never wanted to talk to her again. So it goes. Stupidity is part of life. And part of having friendships is disagreeing and then moving on with life because the stupid details just aren't worth it.
But friends forgive each other, you know? And forgiving someone means forgetting their transgressions even and especially when they don't have an excuse for them. Being friends with someone as long as they maintain good standards of behavior isn't a particularly charitable way to go through life.
Yes, absolutely. valkyryn hit the nail on the head.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 4:46 PM on March 17, 2009 [2 favorites]
No, you're not. If you were, you wouldn't have dropped a bomb on a friend for something that wasn't about YOU. Yes, the pictures were taken of your party. They were not, however, OF you. YOU were not the one personally embarrassed by them.
Yes, you had the right to tell your friend that this was a total dick move.
No, you were not justified in telling her you never wanted to hear from her. If you really, truly, wanted to keep the drama to a minimum you would have butted out after telling her that you really thought this was shitty.
People make stupid mistakes all the time. You admit that it was stupid to get wicked drunk and have pictures taken. She was even stupider to upload them. And you were stupid to tell her you never wanted to talk to her again. So it goes. Stupidity is part of life. And part of having friendships is disagreeing and then moving on with life because the stupid details just aren't worth it.
But friends forgive each other, you know? And forgiving someone means forgetting their transgressions even and especially when they don't have an excuse for them. Being friends with someone as long as they maintain good standards of behavior isn't a particularly charitable way to go through life.
Yes, absolutely. valkyryn hit the nail on the head.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 4:46 PM on March 17, 2009 [2 favorites]
Like a few other posters have commented, I am kind of wondering why you were the one to take action here, seemingly on behalf of your friend Achilles? Yes, it occurred on your birthday, but it still seems like the matter is primarily one between Achilles and Diana - and I say this as someone who really has to beat back my own urges to leap in front of certain dear friends and fight their battles for them when I feel they're being ill-treated. Satisfying and right as it can feel to do so, in the long run I think I'm slowly realizing that it usually only creates more problems for both bystanders like Apollo AND for the person you're "championing." Have you spoken with Achilles about the matter? What if he just wanted to put the whole ugly incident behind him and act like it never happened? That's only going to be all the more difficult for him now.
Still, what's done can't be undone. And I don't even think you necessarily did wrong if you were acting more on your own behalf than I'm reading into your question, but either way it seems like the important thing is what to do going forward. No matter HOW justified they may be, those "I won't ever speak to you again" assertions can be awfully difficult - and impractical! - to follow up on when the target is part of your immediate social circle.
For now, then, I think I would take my cues from those affected, especially Achilles and perhaps also Apollo. Neither of them should be thrown in the middle of what you've made into something between you and Diana. This will all die down eventually, if you let it, but even if you continue to be certain you don't want her as a friend anymore it still ought to be up to YOU to learn how to be in the same room with her if this is what it takes to keep this matter from bleeding onto your innocent bystander friends. You don't HAVE to be her buddy, you don't HAVE to trust her when she's been drinking, but you WOULD do well to figure out how to tolerate her civilly ... and how to let your friends take responsibility for their friendship with and behavior around her, even when it gets them into embarrassing situations.
posted by DingoMutt at 4:47 PM on March 17, 2009
Still, what's done can't be undone. And I don't even think you necessarily did wrong if you were acting more on your own behalf than I'm reading into your question, but either way it seems like the important thing is what to do going forward. No matter HOW justified they may be, those "I won't ever speak to you again" assertions can be awfully difficult - and impractical! - to follow up on when the target is part of your immediate social circle.
For now, then, I think I would take my cues from those affected, especially Achilles and perhaps also Apollo. Neither of them should be thrown in the middle of what you've made into something between you and Diana. This will all die down eventually, if you let it, but even if you continue to be certain you don't want her as a friend anymore it still ought to be up to YOU to learn how to be in the same room with her if this is what it takes to keep this matter from bleeding onto your innocent bystander friends. You don't HAVE to be her buddy, you don't HAVE to trust her when she's been drinking, but you WOULD do well to figure out how to tolerate her civilly ... and how to let your friends take responsibility for their friendship with and behavior around her, even when it gets them into embarrassing situations.
posted by DingoMutt at 4:47 PM on March 17, 2009
Doesn't matter if she was drunk when asked not to post them!! Who in their right mind decides 'yeah, let's post these naked picture of my friend .. that seems like a great idea!' NOT someone worth much consideration.
As you've said, she is not someone who has much regard for the comfort of others and so I certainly understand your decision not to continue associating with her. I suspect she was not your favorite person to begin with.
Having said that, Apollo is not the one who has made this decision so he will likely just continue to invite you both and the choice is then yours.
Go and just don't speak to her or don't go and seek out the others as you wish.
There doesn't need to be any further drama about it.
posted by Weaslegirl at 5:09 PM on March 17, 2009 [1 favorite]
As you've said, she is not someone who has much regard for the comfort of others and so I certainly understand your decision not to continue associating with her. I suspect she was not your favorite person to begin with.
Having said that, Apollo is not the one who has made this decision so he will likely just continue to invite you both and the choice is then yours.
Go and just don't speak to her or don't go and seek out the others as you wish.
There doesn't need to be any further drama about it.
posted by Weaslegirl at 5:09 PM on March 17, 2009 [1 favorite]
This whole situation sounds unnecessarily mellow dramatic. You have to watch yourself when you're drunk, we do stupid things that can carry over into our day to day lives, especially in the digital age. You can only be responsible for yourself and your actions, by doing the things you have chosen to do, it seems that you have gone out of your way to create the most drama possible for all parties involved.
posted by mattsweaters at 5:30 PM on March 17, 2009
posted by mattsweaters at 5:30 PM on March 17, 2009
Another in the overreacted column. What she did was wrong, but to end a friendship over something that didn't have too much to do with you directly, eh.
I think the real question is, is she a good friend to you? If it is a meaningful friendship, resolve it.
posted by hazyspring at 5:30 PM on March 17, 2009
I think the real question is, is she a good friend to you? If it is a meaningful friendship, resolve it.
posted by hazyspring at 5:30 PM on March 17, 2009
I think that maybe you should be looking for a new group of people to hang out with. Regardless of whether you did anything wrong, I think that because you made the first move in severing ties with a member of the group, it may seem to others that keeping the group together isn't that important to you. If you want to make life easy for the remaining members, I think that you shouldn't expect them to accomodate your beef with Diana in their plans.
I don't mean to sound so Eeyore-like... I think that if you lay low for a little while, everything will sort itself out, but that in the meantime I wouldn't expect my other friends to do anything on my behalf (like only inviting me OR my enemy to parties and outings). If the opportunity presents itself naturally and you want to smooth things over, you could be graceful and apologize for being hasty, but I think to seek out Diana now, when you're still sure that you don't want to hang out with her anymore, might come across as artificial.
posted by mustard seeds at 5:54 PM on March 17, 2009
I don't mean to sound so Eeyore-like... I think that if you lay low for a little while, everything will sort itself out, but that in the meantime I wouldn't expect my other friends to do anything on my behalf (like only inviting me OR my enemy to parties and outings). If the opportunity presents itself naturally and you want to smooth things over, you could be graceful and apologize for being hasty, but I think to seek out Diana now, when you're still sure that you don't want to hang out with her anymore, might come across as artificial.
posted by mustard seeds at 5:54 PM on March 17, 2009
You did the right thing.
Refusing to go to the same parties is unnecessarily spiteful, go to the parties, have fun, and just treat her as a stranger you don't want to talk to (without being actively hostile, of course).
posted by The Monkey at 6:51 PM on March 17, 2009 [1 favorite]
Refusing to go to the same parties is unnecessarily spiteful, go to the parties, have fun, and just treat her as a stranger you don't want to talk to (without being actively hostile, of course).
posted by The Monkey at 6:51 PM on March 17, 2009 [1 favorite]
I can't decide if this is overreacting or not, in terms of your letter to Diana, but I feel like it isn't overall. You say that she "frequently violates comfort zones." Given that, this is just another example of it, and if this is the roundabout level of comfort-zone-breaking she does often, I'm surprised you've been friends with her for eight years. Also, to those who say you're overreacting, simply because nothing actually happened to you, I think that's a bit...negligent. (Imagine if we applied that same logic to other parts of our lives and relationships.) I have ended friendships or distanced myself from people when they have mistreated other friends or lovers repeatedly. I have always figured that that mistreatment (if a pattern) will eventually hit me. So far, I have not been wrong, as most all who I have thoughtfully distanced myself from have gone on to be inconsiderate, to heartless toward other friends and the like. A very few have learned a lesson, come back to me and apologized.
I agree with hal_c_on. If the sexes had been reversed in that scenario, you'd be getting a lot of different replies here, and it's something to think about. While your friend Achilles was probably dumb in showing his boy bits to a girl who doesn't pay mind to boundaries, she was some kind of a friend, nonetheless. She has totally betrayed that; if she hasn't endangered his job (and future jobs, depending on how publicly she's posted these pictures), she's made it difficult for him to work where he is; and I agree with the sentiment that, drunk or not when you laid down the rules, she should have known better than to post someone's body on the Internet, without permission. There are laws against that. If she has the slightest bit of common sense, she'd know that. However, I'm guessing that as someone who likes to stretch and break comfort zones, she didn't care, which was horrible on her part.
As for Apollo, just wing it. Simply because you're in the same room with someone doesn't mean you have to talk to her at all/much. Keep interaction to a minimal level, but if it would be overtly awkward for others for you to not talk to her, do so only briefly. (By the way, at the same time of doing this, don't air your dirty laundry and tell everyone what happened. Just do this for yourself.)
If she comes back at any point to try to apologize, I recommend you spell out what you want from her--not rudely, but honestly. I wouldn't want to be friends with someone who posted nude photos of me or other friends without our permission, for instance.
posted by metalheart at 6:54 PM on March 17, 2009 [1 favorite]
I agree with hal_c_on. If the sexes had been reversed in that scenario, you'd be getting a lot of different replies here, and it's something to think about. While your friend Achilles was probably dumb in showing his boy bits to a girl who doesn't pay mind to boundaries, she was some kind of a friend, nonetheless. She has totally betrayed that; if she hasn't endangered his job (and future jobs, depending on how publicly she's posted these pictures), she's made it difficult for him to work where he is; and I agree with the sentiment that, drunk or not when you laid down the rules, she should have known better than to post someone's body on the Internet, without permission. There are laws against that. If she has the slightest bit of common sense, she'd know that. However, I'm guessing that as someone who likes to stretch and break comfort zones, she didn't care, which was horrible on her part.
As for Apollo, just wing it. Simply because you're in the same room with someone doesn't mean you have to talk to her at all/much. Keep interaction to a minimal level, but if it would be overtly awkward for others for you to not talk to her, do so only briefly. (By the way, at the same time of doing this, don't air your dirty laundry and tell everyone what happened. Just do this for yourself.)
If she comes back at any point to try to apologize, I recommend you spell out what you want from her--not rudely, but honestly. I wouldn't want to be friends with someone who posted nude photos of me or other friends without our permission, for instance.
posted by metalheart at 6:54 PM on March 17, 2009 [1 favorite]
I did not realize, and perhaps this is a sign of age or naivete, that the world had sunk to the point where one has to be ASKED, at a time of sobriety, not to post naked pictures of someone else.
Diana sounds like a charming, wonderful friend. No, really. I think you are better off.
posted by bunnycup at 7:10 PM on March 17, 2009 [2 favorites]
Diana sounds like a charming, wonderful friend. No, really. I think you are better off.
posted by bunnycup at 7:10 PM on March 17, 2009 [2 favorites]
I think your standard of whether or not you did the right thing is entirely up to you. Some people here would clearly be okay if one of their friends had done that to them - one of those "life sucks, let it go" type things. Some people are okay with friends getting a carte blanche as far as doing douchebaggy things go. Some people can laugh it off.
You're not one of them, and if this is the "straw that broke the camel's back" and you no longer feel comfortable around Diane, you're completely entitled to stop hanging out with her. I think the letter was a bit childish and overreacting, personally, but I see nothing wrong with refusing to continue hanging out with her.
It's a good lesson as far as doing stupid things while drunk goes, however.
posted by Phire at 7:15 PM on March 17, 2009
You're not one of them, and if this is the "straw that broke the camel's back" and you no longer feel comfortable around Diane, you're completely entitled to stop hanging out with her. I think the letter was a bit childish and overreacting, personally, but I see nothing wrong with refusing to continue hanging out with her.
It's a good lesson as far as doing stupid things while drunk goes, however.
posted by Phire at 7:15 PM on March 17, 2009
Yes, you were right to be pissed at Diana. Achilles has even more reason to be pissed.
You however are also wrong to have put Apollo (and other friends) in the middle. Diana may never be one of your closest friends again, but splitting an entire friend group asunder is not cool.
What you should do now: tell Diana you're not cool with her or what she did, but that you want the friend group not to suffer for what happened, and that you should make amends to the point of being able to be civil. Feel free not to invite her to things you host, but you have no right to prevent other people from inviting her (not by being loud, not by being bitchy if she's around, not at all.)
(Something like this happened in my friend group recently; it sucks something serious. My policy: I don't care what happened. I really just don't. Everyone in the group is my friend, and I will invite everyone, and if they can't manage to be around each other, they have to figure it out. Damn I wish those dipshits would stop grousing about each other though.)
posted by nat at 7:30 PM on March 17, 2009 [1 favorite]
You however are also wrong to have put Apollo (and other friends) in the middle. Diana may never be one of your closest friends again, but splitting an entire friend group asunder is not cool.
What you should do now: tell Diana you're not cool with her or what she did, but that you want the friend group not to suffer for what happened, and that you should make amends to the point of being able to be civil. Feel free not to invite her to things you host, but you have no right to prevent other people from inviting her (not by being loud, not by being bitchy if she's around, not at all.)
(Something like this happened in my friend group recently; it sucks something serious. My policy: I don't care what happened. I really just don't. Everyone in the group is my friend, and I will invite everyone, and if they can't manage to be around each other, they have to figure it out. Damn I wish those dipshits would stop grousing about each other though.)
posted by nat at 7:30 PM on March 17, 2009 [1 favorite]
You can tell someone that what they did was really shitty, without telling them you don't ever want to talk to them or see them again.
Then you can just not talk to them (as much).
It sounds like there have been other issues with this person, otherwise you wouldn't have reacted so strongly, however telling her you never want to see or hear from her again, knowing that you have friends and coworkers in common puts you in an awkward position, 'cause she's not going to go away.
Next time she's around, just be normal, don't explain more or take back what you said. Don't chat her up, but if she says hi, say hi.
posted by Locochona at 7:44 PM on March 17, 2009
Then you can just not talk to them (as much).
It sounds like there have been other issues with this person, otherwise you wouldn't have reacted so strongly, however telling her you never want to see or hear from her again, knowing that you have friends and coworkers in common puts you in an awkward position, 'cause she's not going to go away.
Next time she's around, just be normal, don't explain more or take back what you said. Don't chat her up, but if she says hi, say hi.
posted by Locochona at 7:44 PM on March 17, 2009
Diana sounds like an idiot with no respect for her other friends' wishes or boundaries, and I can see why you wouldn't want to be friends with someone like that.
That said, it seems odd for you to want to organize a boycott of her over something that she did that didn't even affect you directly. If Achilles wanted to organize the shunning, that would be more understandable--your wanting everyone to shun her because she acted like an ass to Achilles seems extreme to me.
And don't worry: if you keep doing what you're doing, this problem will take care of itself very soon--Apollo et al. will drop you, because nobody wants to deal with the "I'm not coming if she's going to be there" person. Seriously, most people prefer even Drunky McPosty-Nudes to the person who turns every social gathering into a declaration of loyalties.
So if you really want to stay friends with these other people, just suck it up and deal with being in the same room with this chick you dislike (for good reason, because she seems like a jerk). If you've never dealt with having friends whose friends you dislike before, this will be good practice.
posted by Sidhedevil at 8:42 PM on March 17, 2009 [2 favorites]
That said, it seems odd for you to want to organize a boycott of her over something that she did that didn't even affect you directly. If Achilles wanted to organize the shunning, that would be more understandable--your wanting everyone to shun her because she acted like an ass to Achilles seems extreme to me.
And don't worry: if you keep doing what you're doing, this problem will take care of itself very soon--Apollo et al. will drop you, because nobody wants to deal with the "I'm not coming if she's going to be there" person. Seriously, most people prefer even Drunky McPosty-Nudes to the person who turns every social gathering into a declaration of loyalties.
So if you really want to stay friends with these other people, just suck it up and deal with being in the same room with this chick you dislike (for good reason, because she seems like a jerk). If you've never dealt with having friends whose friends you dislike before, this will be good practice.
posted by Sidhedevil at 8:42 PM on March 17, 2009 [2 favorites]
I would get the word to her that you will let bygones be bygones as soon as the pictures come down off of the site she controls. If she takes them down, send her a thank you note or a very small gift. Then have your mutual friend invite her to an event and you show up later in the evening and make some small talk. Or go to a movie where you can all be acting like friends but do not have to talk to each other for a while. Sort of like two dogs sniffing each other's butts before engaging.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 9:15 PM on March 17, 2009
posted by JohnnyGunn at 9:15 PM on March 17, 2009
Achilles is an idiot.
If any of you flash me in a bar, then the resulting pics are going online.
You've been warned.
posted by bingo at 10:06 PM on March 17, 2009
If any of you flash me in a bar, then the resulting pics are going online.
You've been warned.
posted by bingo at 10:06 PM on March 17, 2009
Everything sidhedevil said but let me add that I think from your brief description of events that I don't think Diana is a jerk. What does "violate comfort zones" mean? Because violating comfort zones is the number one way to have a good time with friends.
Anyway, if you and Bits Mcgee (I can't keep the Greek names straight, so that's what I'm calling person with his bits on the internet) are the only ones who have a problem with SuperFunTimeGal (aka Diana) and she still doesn't mind hanging out with you then it's your choice to make whether or not you want to hang out with Apollo (this name is fine, I just think of fat Jamie Bamber), not his.
If you want to make it easy on him, just tell him to invite SFTG out whenever he normally would and you'll have to decide whether or not you'll join them. That way it's all on you. Maybe you and Bits can hang out with each other and have a fun night not having your pictures on the internet.
posted by runcibleshaw at 10:29 PM on March 17, 2009
Anyway, if you and Bits Mcgee (I can't keep the Greek names straight, so that's what I'm calling person with his bits on the internet) are the only ones who have a problem with SuperFunTimeGal (aka Diana) and she still doesn't mind hanging out with you then it's your choice to make whether or not you want to hang out with Apollo (this name is fine, I just think of fat Jamie Bamber), not his.
If you want to make it easy on him, just tell him to invite SFTG out whenever he normally would and you'll have to decide whether or not you'll join them. That way it's all on you. Maybe you and Bits can hang out with each other and have a fun night not having your pictures on the internet.
posted by runcibleshaw at 10:29 PM on March 17, 2009
Whatever you do, wait two weeks or so before you do it so you can weigh the value of the friendship with less anger in your brain.
posted by ignignokt at 10:41 PM on March 17, 2009
posted by ignignokt at 10:41 PM on March 17, 2009
A friend that you cannot trust is not a friend. Period.
posted by zachawry at 4:40 AM on March 18, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by zachawry at 4:40 AM on March 18, 2009 [1 favorite]
It is not up to your other friends to police their parties. I wouldn't be friends with Diana after this, either, and I wouldn't go to parties that she was at with her camera. But this is my choice, and I'm the one not going to parties. Diana was a jerk, but it's not the kind of jerkiness to you that merits asking friends to choose. (That said, I think Achilles has the right to ask people to choose.) Make plans with Apollo separately, tell him you're not ending your friendship with him just because he's still friends with Diana, and perhaps over time you'll be willing to see her as part of a group.
posted by jeather at 7:55 AM on March 18, 2009
posted by jeather at 7:55 AM on March 18, 2009
No it isn't, especially when a close friend of eight years suddenly isn't being invited places, called, included, etc. People can tell. And it's almost emotionally abusive in a way.
I'd argue "phasing someone out" hurts worse than putting things directly and out in the open.
I wasn't saying that she should simply stop talking to this person outright. She should phase out. there's an ebb and flow in relationships. Most of the time it's not conscious, people just break apart. Being declarative is being childish and melodramatic. If you don't want to hang out with someone anymore, you hang out with them less. Phasing out means like... you're now still seeing his person, but just more in a group than alone.
It's clear from the OPP that Diana's behavior is a chronic problem. Now if she'd never called her out on it before, than a call out is in order, but if you don't really think a person is going to change, then just phase them out.
trying to change or awaken someone who doesn't want to be changed or awakened is a pointless, exhausting exercise. It takes wisdom to know when to walk away.
However, upon re-reads, I would like to mention a couple things.
1.) Grow up and stop taking naked pictures of yourself. It's unrealistic to expect that they will not somehow show up on the internet. What if Diana only sent them to you and then yr little brother found them?
2.) If you think someone's behavior is reprehensible, that's cool, but I think that achilles should be the person calling her out. Once that's done, you can let her know that it bums you out.
3.) Chill on the drama. Writing declarative notes about how you're never going to talk to someone again are begging for bombast, confrontation, and asinine behavior. In fact, putting anything in writing is a fairly bad idea. People always take away whatever they find most offensive from it and never learn anything from it. In a dialogue, you can work through misunderstanding.
posted by orville sash at 8:07 AM on March 18, 2009
I'd argue "phasing someone out" hurts worse than putting things directly and out in the open.
I wasn't saying that she should simply stop talking to this person outright. She should phase out. there's an ebb and flow in relationships. Most of the time it's not conscious, people just break apart. Being declarative is being childish and melodramatic. If you don't want to hang out with someone anymore, you hang out with them less. Phasing out means like... you're now still seeing his person, but just more in a group than alone.
It's clear from the OPP that Diana's behavior is a chronic problem. Now if she'd never called her out on it before, than a call out is in order, but if you don't really think a person is going to change, then just phase them out.
trying to change or awaken someone who doesn't want to be changed or awakened is a pointless, exhausting exercise. It takes wisdom to know when to walk away.
However, upon re-reads, I would like to mention a couple things.
1.) Grow up and stop taking naked pictures of yourself. It's unrealistic to expect that they will not somehow show up on the internet. What if Diana only sent them to you and then yr little brother found them?
2.) If you think someone's behavior is reprehensible, that's cool, but I think that achilles should be the person calling her out. Once that's done, you can let her know that it bums you out.
3.) Chill on the drama. Writing declarative notes about how you're never going to talk to someone again are begging for bombast, confrontation, and asinine behavior. In fact, putting anything in writing is a fairly bad idea. People always take away whatever they find most offensive from it and never learn anything from it. In a dialogue, you can work through misunderstanding.
posted by orville sash at 8:07 AM on March 18, 2009
While I do not disagree with cutting someone out of you life if they do things that make you uncomfortable, I don't know if I agree with your MO. A letter and vow to never speak to them is too mellow dramatic. You are angry now and it is healthy to express that with the person that you are angry with. However, the best way to cut someone out of your life when you share a group of friends is quietly. There is no reason to draw a line in the ground and disrupt everyone in the group.
posted by Gor-ella at 9:14 AM on March 18, 2009
posted by Gor-ella at 9:14 AM on March 18, 2009
I suspect I'm the tribal elder on this thread and I just have to jump in. You're young, cut yourself some slack about actions you have already taken -- you are actually still in the process of defining relationships outside of your family. "Trust" and "Friend" and "Loyalty" are tricky words at your age, don't expect your understanding of them to be reflected in others actions, until you know them long and well and have gone through some shit together. On the topic of friends, I can tell you they come and go and come back again or not and it is wholly dependent on YOU learning how to be one first. I have a feeling that sometime in the very near future, Achilles will no longer inspire the deep feelings you say you have for him and all this loyalty-cum-drama will have been for nought. To me, he sounds like a bit of a lout.
Let me trot out: MYOB. If you write the letter, let it sit for 24 hours. Fight your own battles. Alcohol is no excuse. And for god's sakes, can't anyone behave badly anymore without documenting it? Let it be, kids, let it be!
posted by thinkpiece at 12:35 PM on March 18, 2009 [1 favorite]
Let me trot out: MYOB. If you write the letter, let it sit for 24 hours. Fight your own battles. Alcohol is no excuse. And for god's sakes, can't anyone behave badly anymore without documenting it? Let it be, kids, let it be!
posted by thinkpiece at 12:35 PM on March 18, 2009 [1 favorite]
Some friends are assholes, and even though they're friends you're better off without them. Some friends enjoy doing the things that they're asked not to do. They think it makes them interesting, or edgy, or some shit like that. It doesn't, it makes them assholes. I have cut friends like Diana out of my life, and it's a much better life because of it.
posted by Hogshead at 7:54 AM on March 25, 2009
posted by Hogshead at 7:54 AM on March 25, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
Nah. You made your stand, and now you let the chips fall where they may. The only caveat being that if "Achillies" isn't too cut up about the photos, you might want to rethink your stand a bit. If he's not worried, then maybe you shouldn't be either?
posted by dydecker at 3:24 PM on March 17, 2009 [2 favorites]