I am tired of smelling your butthole?
February 4, 2009 10:02 AM Subscribe
My girlfriend, whom I've been with for two years, will spend forty minutes to an hour putting on makeup and creams, blowdrying her hair and all that other stuff girls do. Despite this, she lacks any understanding of basic hygiene and I really can't take it anymore. How do I get her to change her habits in a way that is both effective and respectful?
Look, I know standards of cleanliness decline in LTRs, but this is beyond the pale. She'll go days without showering, brushing her teeth or changing her panties. I doubt anyone besides me notices, but it makes being close to her incredibly unpleasant.
I've tried twice lately to confront this problem - once, when were in the shower I brought up the topic of buttcrack washing, and she laughed it off as something she "just doesn't do." Ever, apparently.
Yesterday, I tried to be a little more forceful and told her that maybe she should brush her teeth before we go out. Long story short, she's still mad at me. "You simply DON'T say that to people. It's rude."
If I can't say her breath smells without evoking disproportionate rage, how am I ever going to say, "You need to wash your butthole because it smells like an outhouse under the covers when we go to bed"? While I'm surely not the only adult male to have encountered this quandary, I don't really know how to deal with it in a way that is mature and minimally upsetting.
Look, I know standards of cleanliness decline in LTRs, but this is beyond the pale. She'll go days without showering, brushing her teeth or changing her panties. I doubt anyone besides me notices, but it makes being close to her incredibly unpleasant.
I've tried twice lately to confront this problem - once, when were in the shower I brought up the topic of buttcrack washing, and she laughed it off as something she "just doesn't do." Ever, apparently.
Yesterday, I tried to be a little more forceful and told her that maybe she should brush her teeth before we go out. Long story short, she's still mad at me. "You simply DON'T say that to people. It's rude."
If I can't say her breath smells without evoking disproportionate rage, how am I ever going to say, "You need to wash your butthole because it smells like an outhouse under the covers when we go to bed"? While I'm surely not the only adult male to have encountered this quandary, I don't really know how to deal with it in a way that is mature and minimally upsetting.
This post was deleted for the following reason: poster's request -- jessamyn
If you guys can't handle talking about this uncomfortable topic, how are you going to handle talking about finances, or kids, or any of the other dozens of sensitive topics that come with serious, long-term relationships?
This is not just about the cleaning - it's about communication failures, and hypersensitivity on her part. Those are both much more serious problems, and will probably doom your relationship if she can't handle things like an adult.
posted by chrisamiller at 10:07 AM on February 4, 2009 [4 favorites]
This is not just about the cleaning - it's about communication failures, and hypersensitivity on her part. Those are both much more serious problems, and will probably doom your relationship if she can't handle things like an adult.
posted by chrisamiller at 10:07 AM on February 4, 2009 [4 favorites]
If you take showers together, just grab the soap and give her a good scrub. She'll think you're trying to be sexy!
Then dump her.
posted by thirteenkiller at 10:10 AM on February 4, 2009 [53 favorites]
Then dump her.
posted by thirteenkiller at 10:10 AM on February 4, 2009 [53 favorites]
Yikes. Well, if she can't hear it from you, the person who loves her, how is she going to react when a stranger or a co-worker or a classmate comments on her (lack of) hygiene?
I don't think she's ever going to not be upset. No one likes to hear that they stink. However, this will likely become a wedge issue for the two of you (mostly for you, because: ew) so you really need to have this discussion with her.
Maybe you need to discuss things that are important to the both of you. So hygiene is important to you, maybe picking up your laundry (or insert something else here) is important to her. Just be as gentle as you can, be as kind as you can be, and make sure you're not making her feel judged. You don't dislike her as a person, you just would rather she take a more keen interest in hygiene.
posted by cooker girl at 10:10 AM on February 4, 2009
I don't think she's ever going to not be upset. No one likes to hear that they stink. However, this will likely become a wedge issue for the two of you (mostly for you, because: ew) so you really need to have this discussion with her.
Maybe you need to discuss things that are important to the both of you. So hygiene is important to you, maybe picking up your laundry (or insert something else here) is important to her. Just be as gentle as you can, be as kind as you can be, and make sure you're not making her feel judged. You don't dislike her as a person, you just would rather she take a more keen interest in hygiene.
posted by cooker girl at 10:10 AM on February 4, 2009
If you can't have a rational conversation about this with her then your relationship is done. Try to have this conversation when you're not feeling passive aggressive about it.
posted by cellphone at 10:10 AM on February 4, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by cellphone at 10:10 AM on February 4, 2009 [2 favorites]
You dont have to put up with this disgusting behavior. There is a girl out there who has all of the great qualities of your girlfriend with none of the grossness. Really.
posted by ElmerFishpaw at 10:10 AM on February 4, 2009
posted by ElmerFishpaw at 10:10 AM on February 4, 2009
DTMFSmellyA.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 10:11 AM on February 4, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 10:11 AM on February 4, 2009 [2 favorites]
Well, I hate to say it but you are part of the problem.
For whatever reasons of upbringing (or lack thereof) she thinks she can get away with this type of regime, the fact is she can hook-up with someone and maintain a two year (!!) relationship despite smelling like an outhouse under the sheets.
The early phase of the relationship was the time to broach this topic.
posted by Wilder at 10:12 AM on February 4, 2009 [1 favorite]
For whatever reasons of upbringing (or lack thereof) she thinks she can get away with this type of regime, the fact is she can hook-up with someone and maintain a two year (!!) relationship despite smelling like an outhouse under the sheets.
The early phase of the relationship was the time to broach this topic.
posted by Wilder at 10:12 AM on February 4, 2009 [1 favorite]
Hmmmm, this is tricky. Why doesn't she shower/brush? Is it because she's lazy, or is there another issue, like she has long hair or she grew up a hippy or she doesn't want to use water? At some point, after she's showered, you should say something like, god I love it when you shower, you smell wonderful, could you do that more often? At some point you need to have a heart to heart with her, preferably not when she's smelling like shit but when she's smelling great.
posted by billysumday at 10:13 AM on February 4, 2009
posted by billysumday at 10:13 AM on February 4, 2009
This is amazingly (suspiciously?) similar to this ask-me question.
Take the advice there from moi: Ask politely that she improve her habits.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:16 AM on February 4, 2009 [1 favorite]
Take the advice there from moi: Ask politely that she improve her habits.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:16 AM on February 4, 2009 [1 favorite]
Wow - does she have mental health issues? That might make talking to her even harder, but you have to do it. You could get sick from her lack of anal hygiene (assuming you still have the stomach to have sex with her).
posted by tristeza at 10:17 AM on February 4, 2009
posted by tristeza at 10:17 AM on February 4, 2009
And also, you need to let her know that it's not normal to not bathe properly and that a lot of people - most people - think it's disgusting and socially irresponsible/inept to walk around smelling like crap. I'm not suggesting you print out this thread and give it to her, but maybe try to find some other way to impart to her that she is far from the norm, and that that is not a good thing.
posted by billysumday at 10:17 AM on February 4, 2009
posted by billysumday at 10:17 AM on February 4, 2009
While I agree that spending time with people who don't shower is kind of unpleasant, showering every day isn't really necessary. I mean, plenty of people go backpacking or whatever and can't shower for a long time, and do just fine.
Tooth brushing only every few days, however, is another story. Not brushing your teeth is a recipe for serious unpleasantness that could, long term, cause major heath problems. If you're going to start somewhere, I'd start with the consequences of poor dental hygiene.
posted by Fuzzy Dunlop at 10:18 AM on February 4, 2009
Tooth brushing only every few days, however, is another story. Not brushing your teeth is a recipe for serious unpleasantness that could, long term, cause major heath problems. If you're going to start somewhere, I'd start with the consequences of poor dental hygiene.
posted by Fuzzy Dunlop at 10:18 AM on February 4, 2009
This nonpractice and her unwillingness to communicate about it (other than rejecting your comments) would be a dealbreaker to me. But if you're into inertia, maybe wait until you finally vomit when she gets near you? I'm over the internet and I gagged a little.
posted by spec80 at 10:18 AM on February 4, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by spec80 at 10:18 AM on February 4, 2009 [1 favorite]
There are ways to go about this. If you find going "Girl, you stink. You stink bad. I love you, I think you're the bees knees, but your poor hygiene is making me not want to be physically intimate with you", and sticking to the fallout that occurs (while, at the same time, being supportive - promising not to tell friends, to not embarrass her, or to act or talk in away to make her seem gross, disgusting, and getting her defensive), your only options are to force her to adapt to a new lifestyle.
1) Become very hygienic yourself. Wash your face a lot, brush your teeth, require yourself to be clean. But also extend that to the house (since it sounds like you live together). Sweep, mop, do the dishes right away, etc. Make your environment be as clean as possible. Take the trash out every day. Don't leave food out. Wage war against bugs. Once this is all done, she'll start feeling subconsciously unclean which might trigger her to clean herself regularly. She doesn't want to be the dirty thing in a clean house.
2) Shower together every day - it seems like you do this already so do it more often. If you must, claim that you recently read a horror story that made you afraid of water and you'd like her help. While there, clean her.
3) Get a dog and "accidentally" leave her dirty underwear on the floor. The dog will eat it. Mention to your girlfriend that the more soiled an article of clothing is, the more appealing it is to the dog.
4) Wash the covers more often. When she wonders why you're doing this, claim that the cleaner the sheets, the less your acne will break out (which is true).
5) With said dog that you got in step 3, give that dog regular baths. When your girlfriend notices a smell (which will be more noticeable since the apartment is very clean due to step 1) and tries to blame the dog, mention that you just washed the dog and it can't be that.
6) Stand in crowded subway cars and notice if people change cars because of her. If they do, she'll notice.
As helpful as these six steps are, they're all very passive aggressive. Basically you need to reiterate that you care about her, that you love her (which I'm guessing is the truth because you never mentioned in the post) and that you are supportive of her but, god damn, she smells bad! There's no easy way to do this that isn't upsetting. But, if you can get through it, your relationship will be stronger because of it.
posted by Stynxno at 10:18 AM on February 4, 2009
1) Become very hygienic yourself. Wash your face a lot, brush your teeth, require yourself to be clean. But also extend that to the house (since it sounds like you live together). Sweep, mop, do the dishes right away, etc. Make your environment be as clean as possible. Take the trash out every day. Don't leave food out. Wage war against bugs. Once this is all done, she'll start feeling subconsciously unclean which might trigger her to clean herself regularly. She doesn't want to be the dirty thing in a clean house.
2) Shower together every day - it seems like you do this already so do it more often. If you must, claim that you recently read a horror story that made you afraid of water and you'd like her help. While there, clean her.
3) Get a dog and "accidentally" leave her dirty underwear on the floor. The dog will eat it. Mention to your girlfriend that the more soiled an article of clothing is, the more appealing it is to the dog.
4) Wash the covers more often. When she wonders why you're doing this, claim that the cleaner the sheets, the less your acne will break out (which is true).
5) With said dog that you got in step 3, give that dog regular baths. When your girlfriend notices a smell (which will be more noticeable since the apartment is very clean due to step 1) and tries to blame the dog, mention that you just washed the dog and it can't be that.
6) Stand in crowded subway cars and notice if people change cars because of her. If they do, she'll notice.
As helpful as these six steps are, they're all very passive aggressive. Basically you need to reiterate that you care about her, that you love her (which I'm guessing is the truth because you never mentioned in the post) and that you are supportive of her but, god damn, she smells bad! There's no easy way to do this that isn't upsetting. But, if you can get through it, your relationship will be stronger because of it.
posted by Stynxno at 10:18 AM on February 4, 2009
Has she always been like this? Or has it gradually worsened over the course of the relationship? Increasingly worsening hygiene could signal some mental health problems. Actually, I'd venture a guess that there definitely IS a mental health something or other at play here.
And also what Elmerfishpaw said.
posted by hellboundforcheddar at 10:19 AM on February 4, 2009
And also what Elmerfishpaw said.
posted by hellboundforcheddar at 10:19 AM on February 4, 2009
leave. issue solved.
posted by Señor Pantalones at 10:24 AM on February 4, 2009
posted by Señor Pantalones at 10:24 AM on February 4, 2009
You should have brought this up in Month 3, not in Year 2. Because you've let it go so long, it'll be much harder to bring it up without her thinking you're doing it for some other reason than the obvious fact that she's disgusting.
I doubt you'll be able to change her. She has to want to change in order for change to actually happen. So it seems that your relationship is doomed. You can give it one last chance, telling her outright that her smells are offensive and it has to stop or the relationship is over. If you care about her, then tell her honestly that her smell is wretched and not appropriate for grown ups in today's society. Tell her that exact sentence about her butthole stinking up the bed. She'll likely be hurt, but some people just need that slap in the face to wake up to reality.
She's completely wrong when she says it's rude to tell others about their hygiene. Yeah, maybe for a random stranger, but it's certainly not rude for your live in partner to say these things. I mean, it's better to hear "hey, I can smell your butthole from a mile away" from your partner than from your boss. If she can't handle that, what does that say about how she will handle other serious discussions?
posted by Meagan at 10:25 AM on February 4, 2009 [1 favorite]
I doubt you'll be able to change her. She has to want to change in order for change to actually happen. So it seems that your relationship is doomed. You can give it one last chance, telling her outright that her smells are offensive and it has to stop or the relationship is over. If you care about her, then tell her honestly that her smell is wretched and not appropriate for grown ups in today's society. Tell her that exact sentence about her butthole stinking up the bed. She'll likely be hurt, but some people just need that slap in the face to wake up to reality.
She's completely wrong when she says it's rude to tell others about their hygiene. Yeah, maybe for a random stranger, but it's certainly not rude for your live in partner to say these things. I mean, it's better to hear "hey, I can smell your butthole from a mile away" from your partner than from your boss. If she can't handle that, what does that say about how she will handle other serious discussions?
posted by Meagan at 10:25 AM on February 4, 2009 [1 favorite]
How to approach her? In a hazmat suit.
Seriously, there is only one way to say it, and that is to simply say it. You can't really dress up "you smell bad and need to rectify that" too many different ways. At least when she blows up after you tell her you have a good out to end the relationship. Which is what I think you should do. If she didn't realise you had her interests at heart when you asked her to brush her teeth, then went in a mood about it, there isn't really a future.
posted by fire&wings at 10:25 AM on February 4, 2009
Seriously, there is only one way to say it, and that is to simply say it. You can't really dress up "you smell bad and need to rectify that" too many different ways. At least when she blows up after you tell her you have a good out to end the relationship. Which is what I think you should do. If she didn't realise you had her interests at heart when you asked her to brush her teeth, then went in a mood about it, there isn't really a future.
posted by fire&wings at 10:25 AM on February 4, 2009
I know standards of cleanliness decline in LTRs
Not in my experience they don't. Why would someone want to be less clean for their beloved?
As others have said, this is a communication problem as much as it is a hygiene one. If this issue can't be raised without her blowing up at you, then your relationship may well be doomed.
Another thought that occurred to me is this: is she depressed? A lack of attention to personal care is sometimes an outward sign of depression.
posted by essexjan at 10:27 AM on February 4, 2009
Not in my experience they don't. Why would someone want to be less clean for their beloved?
As others have said, this is a communication problem as much as it is a hygiene one. If this issue can't be raised without her blowing up at you, then your relationship may well be doomed.
Another thought that occurred to me is this: is she depressed? A lack of attention to personal care is sometimes an outward sign of depression.
posted by essexjan at 10:27 AM on February 4, 2009
Try couching it in terms of how it will improve her life, how it makes her more attractive, etc, instead of saying "you stink!".
In essence, get her to want to do it. If you go into the conversation in a confrontational manner, she'll retaliate in the same way. If you can get her to see how it'll benefit her life, she'll probably be more amenable.
Or you could be mean, and show her a picture of her backside and how horrific it is. Up to you.
posted by Solomon at 10:28 AM on February 4, 2009
In essence, get her to want to do it. If you go into the conversation in a confrontational manner, she'll retaliate in the same way. If you can get her to see how it'll benefit her life, she'll probably be more amenable.
Or you could be mean, and show her a picture of her backside and how horrific it is. Up to you.
posted by Solomon at 10:28 AM on February 4, 2009
How do I get her to change her habits in a way that is both effective and respectful?
Talk to her about what the problem is and ask her to change, while reminding her that you love her and want to be with her. There may be fallout, and you'll have to bear it, but do so calmly, while pointing out that her behavior is affecting the relationship, yet you still lover her and want to be in the relationship with her.
You're going to have to look at this a project and that she won't change overnight. You need to decide whether you want to put with that.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:40 AM on February 4, 2009
Talk to her about what the problem is and ask her to change, while reminding her that you love her and want to be with her. There may be fallout, and you'll have to bear it, but do so calmly, while pointing out that her behavior is affecting the relationship, yet you still lover her and want to be in the relationship with her.
You're going to have to look at this a project and that she won't change overnight. You need to decide whether you want to put with that.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:40 AM on February 4, 2009
I'd like to ask for more details, if you can get with a mod and have them post them. I'm wondering if this was a noticeable problem before you moved in with her.
It certainly *sounds* noticeable ("outhouse under the sheets" it's disgustingly evocative, btw), but if this has become much worse recently, as others have said, it could signal depression or a mental illness that is worsening to the point where she doesn't want to do even the basic kinds of maintenance any more.
There are some real inconsistencies in the question--that she does take care of hair and makeup, but not basic hygiene or even washing--that make mental illness sound less likely. And other inconsistencies-- that this completely grosses you out but you not only have done nothing but moved in with her anyway--are raising red flags with me. I sincerely hope that you are NOT acting out of some vindictive need to trash this person online in some way, and fabricating this question based on that.
Please come in and supply more details about when you moved in together and why this has never come up before. I think this would help us all provide better answers to your question.
posted by misha at 10:41 AM on February 4, 2009
It certainly *sounds* noticeable ("outhouse under the sheets" it's disgustingly evocative, btw), but if this has become much worse recently, as others have said, it could signal depression or a mental illness that is worsening to the point where she doesn't want to do even the basic kinds of maintenance any more.
There are some real inconsistencies in the question--that she does take care of hair and makeup, but not basic hygiene or even washing--that make mental illness sound less likely. And other inconsistencies-- that this completely grosses you out but you not only have done nothing but moved in with her anyway--are raising red flags with me. I sincerely hope that you are NOT acting out of some vindictive need to trash this person online in some way, and fabricating this question based on that.
Please come in and supply more details about when you moved in together and why this has never come up before. I think this would help us all provide better answers to your question.
posted by misha at 10:41 AM on February 4, 2009
Disagree with gwenlister and Solomon:
Don't try to frame it as "I'm concerned with your health" or "this will make you happier". It's deceptive, and she'll pick up on that. You want her to change her ways because you find her current ways disgusting, and there's nothing wrong with that. Just say it.
Lots of people have given good suggestions about how to deliver the message kindly.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 10:47 AM on February 4, 2009 [1 favorite]
Don't try to frame it as "I'm concerned with your health" or "this will make you happier". It's deceptive, and she'll pick up on that. You want her to change her ways because you find her current ways disgusting, and there's nothing wrong with that. Just say it.
Lots of people have given good suggestions about how to deliver the message kindly.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 10:47 AM on February 4, 2009 [1 favorite]
1. baby steps. don't ever suggest that she's just a dirty person.
2. never pre-empt. learn a lesson from the last administration, and don't ever try to pre-empt smelling her by suggesting that she clean herself BEFORE the problem presents itself. only suggest when the smell is present, and then do so diplomatically.
in order to explain diplomatically bringing up the smell, I'll use the "her butthole smells under the covers when we're in bed" example.
you: do you smell something?
her: no. what?
you: something smells really bad. smells like shit, really.
her: ewww! what is it?
you: i don't know.
at this point, smell your own armpits.
you: no. not that.
at this point, smell every part of yourself you can reach. smell everything else but her.
you: no. but i still smell it! you really can't smell it?
her: no/yes/maybe/what do you think it is?
at this point, you very delicately, as though you were simply trying to eliminate the possibilities for the smell's origin, (in other words DO NOT act like you're about to catch her in the act, or like you even suspect it's actually her) duck your head under the blanket and take a small whiff near her butt.
you: uh oh.
her: what?
you: you don't want to know.
her: what?!
you: (as lightly as possible, like it's just funny and cute. whispering) babe... I think it's coming from... down there!
her: what? what are you talking about?
you: you know... from your butt! (say this very very quietly, and try to smile while you do it, like it's no big deal.
rephrase the above however you need or want to, but the point is, act like it's a random smell at first. do not make accusations about her grooming habits. do not try to be like "aha! i told you you were dirty!" act very very surprised, and act a little embarassed to be telling her that her butt smells.
if she still gets offended, dump her.
posted by shmegegge at 10:49 AM on February 4, 2009 [4 favorites]
2. never pre-empt. learn a lesson from the last administration, and don't ever try to pre-empt smelling her by suggesting that she clean herself BEFORE the problem presents itself. only suggest when the smell is present, and then do so diplomatically.
in order to explain diplomatically bringing up the smell, I'll use the "her butthole smells under the covers when we're in bed" example.
you: do you smell something?
her: no. what?
you: something smells really bad. smells like shit, really.
her: ewww! what is it?
you: i don't know.
at this point, smell your own armpits.
you: no. not that.
at this point, smell every part of yourself you can reach. smell everything else but her.
you: no. but i still smell it! you really can't smell it?
her: no/yes/maybe/what do you think it is?
at this point, you very delicately, as though you were simply trying to eliminate the possibilities for the smell's origin, (in other words DO NOT act like you're about to catch her in the act, or like you even suspect it's actually her) duck your head under the blanket and take a small whiff near her butt.
you: uh oh.
her: what?
you: you don't want to know.
her: what?!
you: (as lightly as possible, like it's just funny and cute. whispering) babe... I think it's coming from... down there!
her: what? what are you talking about?
you: you know... from your butt! (say this very very quietly, and try to smile while you do it, like it's no big deal.
rephrase the above however you need or want to, but the point is, act like it's a random smell at first. do not make accusations about her grooming habits. do not try to be like "aha! i told you you were dirty!" act very very surprised, and act a little embarassed to be telling her that her butt smells.
if she still gets offended, dump her.
posted by shmegegge at 10:49 AM on February 4, 2009 [4 favorites]
Here's some info on the link between oral/overall health, if you want to start with the "being healthy" angle.
You say "Look, I know standards of cleanliness decline in LTRs" - so is this a relatively new behavior? If so, when did it start? Can you link it to any physical, mental or emotional trigger? Just another thing you can talk about with her.
posted by mikepop at 10:51 AM on February 4, 2009
You say "Look, I know standards of cleanliness decline in LTRs" - so is this a relatively new behavior? If so, when did it start? Can you link it to any physical, mental or emotional trigger? Just another thing you can talk about with her.
posted by mikepop at 10:51 AM on February 4, 2009
It would take every fiber of my being not to repeat, "You smell like crap because there is crap on you, there is crap on you because you don't clean yourself properly," over and over and over and over. That you haven't done that is testament to either your devotion to this girl, your belief that the problem is fixable, or your own low self-esteem.
You would think a user with the name "stynxno" would have better advice on how to handle the situation, but, sadly, you can't make people wake up to their problems through hints and subterfuge, especially if you have already had an angry confrontation about it when it was mentioned directly. (BTW: The answer to "You simply DON'T say that to people. It's rude." is "You simply don't come close to people while smelling like that.")
I suggest you try one more time to be direct, and make it clear that the future of your relationship depends on it. If that doesn't work, and immediately, leave her. Otherwise you will just get to be uncomfortable around her for the rest of your life while watching her succumb to a host of hygiene-related health problems that will most likely leave her less able and less willing to take care of herself.
posted by jon_kill at 10:52 AM on February 4, 2009
You would think a user with the name "stynxno" would have better advice on how to handle the situation, but, sadly, you can't make people wake up to their problems through hints and subterfuge, especially if you have already had an angry confrontation about it when it was mentioned directly. (BTW: The answer to "You simply DON'T say that to people. It's rude." is "You simply don't come close to people while smelling like that.")
I suggest you try one more time to be direct, and make it clear that the future of your relationship depends on it. If that doesn't work, and immediately, leave her. Otherwise you will just get to be uncomfortable around her for the rest of your life while watching her succumb to a host of hygiene-related health problems that will most likely leave her less able and less willing to take care of herself.
posted by jon_kill at 10:52 AM on February 4, 2009
Don't try to trick her or manipulate her into anything ("Gosh you smell good!" after she showers, or "Mmm-hmm... I sure feel great when I brush my teeth!" as you get ready for bed). Don't try to guilt her into it, either ("Gee, our sheets sure get dirty fast..."). She's not 5. She's an adult who doesn't care about hygiene but does care about her physical appearance, hence not brushing her teeth but spending time doing her hair. I have known (but not dated) people like this. She may have a mental illness issue, or she may just be kind of gross. In any case, if you want her to change her behavior, you need to put it in terms of "As your partner, I would like it if you..." You get to say things like that in a relationship. My SO asked me to stop using a couple cosmetic products because he was mildly allergic to them, so I did. Granted, yours is a more sensitive situation than "Your conditioner makes me sneeze," but it's essentially the same thing: you want her to do something for you that she finds inconvenient or undesirable. You may not be able to persuade her, and you should think about whether you'd want to be with her if she stayed this filthy forever, but you should feel entitled to say to her very directly "You don't care about these four hygiene issues, but I do. Can you make the following changes for my benefit?"
posted by Meg_Murry at 10:54 AM on February 4, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by Meg_Murry at 10:54 AM on February 4, 2009 [2 favorites]
Good point, essexjan: I don't think standards of cleanliness, per se, should decline in a long-term relationship. Maybe attention to details like perfectly shaved legs every day, but that's not an issue of cleanliness. I'm not surprised that she reacted defensively, but I am surprised that she didn't ultimately do anything about it.
I can't say for the state of women outside of myself, but as a heterosexual woman who was brought up (in a pretty normal household, it seems) to shower daily or so, I've been shocked by how many men I've encountered don't pay much attention to ass cleanliness. And frankly, it's totally disgusting. I don't know the intricacies of your intimate practices, but I know it's quite a turn-off to get close to the stanky parts of a stanky partner. I can only imagine that, as your tolerance for the situation erodes more over time, you'll (consciously or not) probably increasingly avoid intimate contact with her. If you can't talk about this matter and rectify it now, it will bubble and seethe below the surface and turn into a way bigger deal that is much harder to fix than with a little TP and a good daily scrub. Basically, you just have to bring it up (and you have to be able to talk about it--and anything) and settle the matter, otherwise it will likely end on a pretty negative note.
posted by penchant at 10:54 AM on February 4, 2009
I can't say for the state of women outside of myself, but as a heterosexual woman who was brought up (in a pretty normal household, it seems) to shower daily or so, I've been shocked by how many men I've encountered don't pay much attention to ass cleanliness. And frankly, it's totally disgusting. I don't know the intricacies of your intimate practices, but I know it's quite a turn-off to get close to the stanky parts of a stanky partner. I can only imagine that, as your tolerance for the situation erodes more over time, you'll (consciously or not) probably increasingly avoid intimate contact with her. If you can't talk about this matter and rectify it now, it will bubble and seethe below the surface and turn into a way bigger deal that is much harder to fix than with a little TP and a good daily scrub. Basically, you just have to bring it up (and you have to be able to talk about it--and anything) and settle the matter, otherwise it will likely end on a pretty negative note.
posted by penchant at 10:54 AM on February 4, 2009
One thing that seems to go against the idea that depression might be an issue is the fact that, per the OP, she spends copious amounts of time on other self-maintenace: makeup, lotions, and doing her hair. Wouldn't lack of hygiene express itself across the board if it were an issue of depression? Although I too woudl like to know if this is a recent development.
This is certainly an issue that has to be addressed. By the looks of things, simply addressing it will make her upset and think you are being rude. So I would advise to NOT be rude, but do be direct about it. Dancing around it or throwing hints won't be effective. This kind of lack of hygiene is just not acceptable.
I think sitting her down during a calm moment and telling her, "I need to talk to you about something", then calmly detailing what you have noticed, would be the simplest and most direct way to go. Tell her you love her and want to be with her, and that is exactly why you are bringing this up. Reassure her that you are not looking to embarrass her, just to let her know that you are seeing a problem that needs to be addressed. Just like with any other aspect of your relationship - presumably if one of you has a problem with the other, you'd try to resolve it. Same with this situation.
posted by DrGirlfriend at 10:55 AM on February 4, 2009 [2 favorites]
This is certainly an issue that has to be addressed. By the looks of things, simply addressing it will make her upset and think you are being rude. So I would advise to NOT be rude, but do be direct about it. Dancing around it or throwing hints won't be effective. This kind of lack of hygiene is just not acceptable.
I think sitting her down during a calm moment and telling her, "I need to talk to you about something", then calmly detailing what you have noticed, would be the simplest and most direct way to go. Tell her you love her and want to be with her, and that is exactly why you are bringing this up. Reassure her that you are not looking to embarrass her, just to let her know that you are seeing a problem that needs to be addressed. Just like with any other aspect of your relationship - presumably if one of you has a problem with the other, you'd try to resolve it. Same with this situation.
posted by DrGirlfriend at 10:55 AM on February 4, 2009 [2 favorites]
Agreed that it's a communication issue as much as anything else. Your question, basically, is "How do I tell my girlfriend that this is a problem without angering/hurting her."
The answer depends on another question entirely: How are y'all at discussing other things? If person A does something that bothers Person B, can you have a rational, productive conversation about it that doesn't devolve into crying/yelling/pouting? Because if you can't, this is a nonstarter. This is much touchier and much more personal than 98% of other things you'll encounter in relationships. So if you can't do the more typical conversations well, this one just isn't going to happen in any good way.
Okay, so, accepting that -- if the answer is yes, you generally have very good communication -- then obviously something else is going on. If she still refuses, it definitely sounds like it could be a sign of depression. If you think this could be the case, stop looking at it as something that affects *you*, and start helping her take steps to deal with the depression. That's a whole 'nother AskMe, right there.
If it's not depression, then sure, another form of mental illness might be possible. Again, approach it from the perspective of helping her deal with it, not from the angle of trying to 'correct' her.
And if it's none of those -- if she's just stubborn or slovenly -- it seems to me that you need to do two things. First, you need to decide how much of a deal-breaker this is to you. If, as she says, this is simply the way she is, she "doesn't do" that stuff, you need to decide if that's something you can live with. And then, you need to communicate to her -- very clearly and calmly -- how important it is to you, how much you're willing to put up with, and what you're willing to do about it. "Darling, I love you, and I value our relationship, but you need to understand that from *my* perspective, living with someone who [smells like an outhouse/walks around in week-old underwear/has moss growing on her teeth] is really rather unpleasant. I need you to [wipe and clean your dirty bum/put on fresh undies/brush your teeth like most adults do] in order for this to work. I'm not being petty. Again, I love you. But this affects my quality of life. If you can't make these changes for me, I'm not going to be able to stay in this relationship. I want to be with you, but I can't want to spend my life with someone with such poor hygiene."
posted by mudpuppie at 10:58 AM on February 4, 2009
The answer depends on another question entirely: How are y'all at discussing other things? If person A does something that bothers Person B, can you have a rational, productive conversation about it that doesn't devolve into crying/yelling/pouting? Because if you can't, this is a nonstarter. This is much touchier and much more personal than 98% of other things you'll encounter in relationships. So if you can't do the more typical conversations well, this one just isn't going to happen in any good way.
Okay, so, accepting that -- if the answer is yes, you generally have very good communication -- then obviously something else is going on. If she still refuses, it definitely sounds like it could be a sign of depression. If you think this could be the case, stop looking at it as something that affects *you*, and start helping her take steps to deal with the depression. That's a whole 'nother AskMe, right there.
If it's not depression, then sure, another form of mental illness might be possible. Again, approach it from the perspective of helping her deal with it, not from the angle of trying to 'correct' her.
And if it's none of those -- if she's just stubborn or slovenly -- it seems to me that you need to do two things. First, you need to decide how much of a deal-breaker this is to you. If, as she says, this is simply the way she is, she "doesn't do" that stuff, you need to decide if that's something you can live with. And then, you need to communicate to her -- very clearly and calmly -- how important it is to you, how much you're willing to put up with, and what you're willing to do about it. "Darling, I love you, and I value our relationship, but you need to understand that from *my* perspective, living with someone who [smells like an outhouse/walks around in week-old underwear/has moss growing on her teeth] is really rather unpleasant. I need you to [wipe and clean your dirty bum/put on fresh undies/brush your teeth like most adults do] in order for this to work. I'm not being petty. Again, I love you. But this affects my quality of life. If you can't make these changes for me, I'm not going to be able to stay in this relationship. I want to be with you, but I can't want to spend my life with someone with such poor hygiene."
posted by mudpuppie at 10:58 AM on February 4, 2009
Say this:
"Honey, you stink and I find your lack of hygiene disturbing, bordering on disgusting. You need to start showering, brushing your teeth and changing your underwear like responsible adults everywhere do."
After she freaks out, say this:
"Look, you can be clean and healthy and with me, or you can continue to be dirty and gross and eventually your stink will literally drive me away. It's harsh but god-damnit woman this is serious."
posted by Vindaloo at 10:59 AM on February 4, 2009 [1 favorite]
"Honey, you stink and I find your lack of hygiene disturbing, bordering on disgusting. You need to start showering, brushing your teeth and changing your underwear like responsible adults everywhere do."
After she freaks out, say this:
"Look, you can be clean and healthy and with me, or you can continue to be dirty and gross and eventually your stink will literally drive me away. It's harsh but god-damnit woman this is serious."
posted by Vindaloo at 10:59 AM on February 4, 2009 [1 favorite]
"I know standards of cleanliness decline in LTRs"
I haven't had that experience at all. Never. Ever. I've noticed that women might not make quite as much of an effort before going out since it's no longer "a date" once it becomes a relationship, but you're not talking about getting all gussied up (as a female friend of mine calls it), you're talking basic hygiene. Basic hygiene does not decline during a relationship.
Also, like it or not, her poor hygiene is a direct reflection on you. Other people do notice when someone doesn't smell good - or when they have a perfume-covering-something-up smell. And then people look at you and assume you're either dirty too, or that you're into it. Some probably wonder "Maybe it's a hippy thing?" Who knows.
I hate to say this, but, at the two year mark it's time to figure out if the relationship is going to stand the test of time or if it isn't.
posted by 2oh1 at 11:01 AM on February 4, 2009
I haven't had that experience at all. Never. Ever. I've noticed that women might not make quite as much of an effort before going out since it's no longer "a date" once it becomes a relationship, but you're not talking about getting all gussied up (as a female friend of mine calls it), you're talking basic hygiene. Basic hygiene does not decline during a relationship.
Also, like it or not, her poor hygiene is a direct reflection on you. Other people do notice when someone doesn't smell good - or when they have a perfume-covering-something-up smell. And then people look at you and assume you're either dirty too, or that you're into it. Some probably wonder "Maybe it's a hippy thing?" Who knows.
I hate to say this, but, at the two year mark it's time to figure out if the relationship is going to stand the test of time or if it isn't.
posted by 2oh1 at 11:01 AM on February 4, 2009
This isn't "she doesn't wash her hair or shower every day". This is "she doesn't shower for days or change her underwear for days or brush her teeth for days". This sounds like a big mental health problem. I am gobsmacked by all of the "just talk to her gently about it". What?
There must be something going on if this decline in hygiene is recent. And it must be recent or you would never have gone anywhere near her in the first place. And trust me, other people are noticing. The stench of someone not brushing their teeth for days (which I have, unfortunately, experienced) could knock you out.
posted by meerkatty at 11:02 AM on February 4, 2009
There must be something going on if this decline in hygiene is recent. And it must be recent or you would never have gone anywhere near her in the first place. And trust me, other people are noticing. The stench of someone not brushing their teeth for days (which I have, unfortunately, experienced) could knock you out.
posted by meerkatty at 11:02 AM on February 4, 2009
"Hygiene declines in LTRs?" Oh no, no, it doesn't, not if partners have a basic consideration for one another. One should want to be clean and attractive to one's SO no matter if you've been together fifty days or fifty years.
And while it's not necessary (and can even be bad for the skin) to have a full bath or shower every day, your partner can at least take what is colloquially known as a "ho bath" or "cat bath" every day. That is, washing one's face, feet, pits and privates. And hands every time she uses the bathroom. Finally, if your SO is not brushing her teeth every day (!), she's going to be very sorry when she sees her eventual dental bill and/or gets a painful toothache. I knew a man who didn't brush every day (I know, gross) and he wound up needing a couple of root canals. Spendy and no fun at all.
Your SO is not only putting your relationship in jeopardy, she's doing the same with her professional future - she may very well miss out on jobs and/or promotions because of some ostensible "lack of professional demeanor" but in reality, "We don't hire or promote the stinky, it will alienate our clients and her co-workers."
Could she possibly be maintaining her stinkitude in order to avoid you? Maybe this is a passive-aggressive way of avoiding physical intimacy or keeping you at a distance. Counseling may help. But, if she refuses counseling AND gets hysterically defensive if you tell her gently to clean up her act, DTstinkyMFA. She's showing a fundamental lack of consideration for you and lack of interest in the relationship.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 11:03 AM on February 4, 2009
And while it's not necessary (and can even be bad for the skin) to have a full bath or shower every day, your partner can at least take what is colloquially known as a "ho bath" or "cat bath" every day. That is, washing one's face, feet, pits and privates. And hands every time she uses the bathroom. Finally, if your SO is not brushing her teeth every day (!), she's going to be very sorry when she sees her eventual dental bill and/or gets a painful toothache. I knew a man who didn't brush every day (I know, gross) and he wound up needing a couple of root canals. Spendy and no fun at all.
Your SO is not only putting your relationship in jeopardy, she's doing the same with her professional future - she may very well miss out on jobs and/or promotions because of some ostensible "lack of professional demeanor" but in reality, "We don't hire or promote the stinky, it will alienate our clients and her co-workers."
Could she possibly be maintaining her stinkitude in order to avoid you? Maybe this is a passive-aggressive way of avoiding physical intimacy or keeping you at a distance. Counseling may help. But, if she refuses counseling AND gets hysterically defensive if you tell her gently to clean up her act, DTstinkyMFA. She's showing a fundamental lack of consideration for you and lack of interest in the relationship.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 11:03 AM on February 4, 2009
Vindaloo has it right.
I forgot to mention, just remember that this is not an issue where you might be wrong. You are 100% right. There might be other issues in your relationship with shades of grey, and they deserve their own approach and their own conversation. This, however, is not a shade of grey topic. You are right.
posted by jon_kill at 11:03 AM on February 4, 2009
I forgot to mention, just remember that this is not an issue where you might be wrong. You are 100% right. There might be other issues in your relationship with shades of grey, and they deserve their own approach and their own conversation. This, however, is not a shade of grey topic. You are right.
posted by jon_kill at 11:03 AM on February 4, 2009
I agree with Vindaloo's second line if she were to freak out after you bring it up initially. If she can't accept a respectful approach to the problem, then it's time to be really blunt.
posted by DrGirlfriend at 11:08 AM on February 4, 2009
posted by DrGirlfriend at 11:08 AM on February 4, 2009
It's really strange that you need to pussyfoot around this in any way after 2 years together. At this point you should be best friends, looking out for one and other. She should able to rely on you to tell her about spinach in her teeth, crud in her eyes, bad breath and any other thing that could cause her embarrassment in the world at large. I could only understand her being angry if you didn't warn her that she was stinky.
You should be able to tell her her but stinks without tying yourself in knots over it. She should care what you think.
posted by bonobothegreat at 11:11 AM on February 4, 2009
You should be able to tell her her but stinks without tying yourself in knots over it. She should care what you think.
posted by bonobothegreat at 11:11 AM on February 4, 2009
She probably has no incentive to change since she can apparently be totally disgusting and still be in a relationship with someone. I am imaging a hobo with make up based on your description of how she takes care of herself. That's not cool. You shouldn't feel bad about dumping her because of this. (It is sad of course on one level that you need to end a relationship because the other person is acting like a 4 year old boy.)
Also, how can there be two different people on MetaFilter that are dating people that can't clean themselves at all? This is sad.
posted by chunking express at 11:11 AM on February 4, 2009
Also, how can there be two different people on MetaFilter that are dating people that can't clean themselves at all? This is sad.
posted by chunking express at 11:11 AM on February 4, 2009
I, too belong to the 'you can't change people' school of thought, so my recommendation is to bail. if there is any hope at all that she may end up wanting to change, only that will do.
and yuck.
posted by krautland at 11:15 AM on February 4, 2009
and yuck.
posted by krautland at 11:15 AM on February 4, 2009
Put De La Soul on her ipod. Track 11 from 3 feet high and rising. Sure there'll be drama for a week or two, but you can laugh it off together once she gets the hint. Martin Lawrence has a good routine in "You So Crazy" about this too.
Or, just build her up with 40 different things (literally) that you love about her, then throw in "Butttt...you need to wash your ass."
Try comedy, and if that doesn't work, try making it 1 out of 41. If that doesn't work, start talking about how person x, friend y and acquaintance z smell soooo good and that you love it when people smell good. If she's about doing things that make you happy, she'll get the hint and start washing.
There's probably one of those "Hanker for a hunka cheese" type Saturday morning videos about washing too.
posted by cashman at 11:17 AM on February 4, 2009
Or, just build her up with 40 different things (literally) that you love about her, then throw in "Butttt...you need to wash your ass."
Try comedy, and if that doesn't work, try making it 1 out of 41. If that doesn't work, start talking about how person x, friend y and acquaintance z smell soooo good and that you love it when people smell good. If she's about doing things that make you happy, she'll get the hint and start washing.
There's probably one of those "Hanker for a hunka cheese" type Saturday morning videos about washing too.
posted by cashman at 11:17 AM on February 4, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
As for how to talk to her about it, maybe approach it from a health standpoint, as though you are worried she is going to get sick because of the things she is doing. if it came from a place of concern rather than "EWWWWW!" she might be more receptive. But I still say yuck and would think long and hard about the relationship. Eventually YOU will get infections/sickness/etc because of her lack of hygiene.
posted by gwenlister at 10:06 AM on February 4, 2009