Sometimes I wonder how I keep from going under
December 1, 2008 8:49 PM Subscribe
How to deal with a bad aesthetic environment whilst bringing up a child.
To cut a long story short, I am married and father of a 2 year old baby girl. Both me and my wife are degree educated and were both privately educated. Unfortunately both of our families circumstances took a turn for the worse and whilst our peers have been assisted with house deposits and the like, we are struggling and now both supporting our parents as opposed to the other way round. I am not looking for sympathy but trying to explain the background to our present circumstance. We are living in a relatively run down part of town and whilst we both work, those surrounding us invariably do not. We both suffer from mild depression and are sensitive to our environment. Some people do not seem to notice the impact that living in a run down location has. We go to sleep to the sound of police sirens, I have been accosted by prostitutes on my walk home (though couldn’t bear to tell my wife) and am offered drugs and/or pan handled with alarming alacrity. As father figure, it breaks my heart that we are brining up our daughter in such an environment though I am doing everything within my power to try and get us out of this situation (disciplined financial budget, no credit cards, no mortgage). I am well aware that many have it worse but to be told that I should just be grateful for what we’ve got does not cut it. I know that as long as our daughter is loved that she is too young to pick up on the environment but I feel terrible. As I’m sure any of you who are parents know, you want to mollycoddle your offspring and protect them from the world.
What I am looking for is practical advice, especially from anyone who has been in a similar situation, as to how you make the best of living in such an environment.
To cut a long story short, I am married and father of a 2 year old baby girl. Both me and my wife are degree educated and were both privately educated. Unfortunately both of our families circumstances took a turn for the worse and whilst our peers have been assisted with house deposits and the like, we are struggling and now both supporting our parents as opposed to the other way round. I am not looking for sympathy but trying to explain the background to our present circumstance. We are living in a relatively run down part of town and whilst we both work, those surrounding us invariably do not. We both suffer from mild depression and are sensitive to our environment. Some people do not seem to notice the impact that living in a run down location has. We go to sleep to the sound of police sirens, I have been accosted by prostitutes on my walk home (though couldn’t bear to tell my wife) and am offered drugs and/or pan handled with alarming alacrity. As father figure, it breaks my heart that we are brining up our daughter in such an environment though I am doing everything within my power to try and get us out of this situation (disciplined financial budget, no credit cards, no mortgage). I am well aware that many have it worse but to be told that I should just be grateful for what we’ve got does not cut it. I know that as long as our daughter is loved that she is too young to pick up on the environment but I feel terrible. As I’m sure any of you who are parents know, you want to mollycoddle your offspring and protect them from the world.
What I am looking for is practical advice, especially from anyone who has been in a similar situation, as to how you make the best of living in such an environment.
I really like amtho's advice. Another idea is to find opportunities to experience warmer environments - walks in a park together, free days at the museum if you can, reading books together in the library. Also, I think physical space is important - keep your space as neat as possible.
best of luck to you!
posted by anitanita at 9:05 PM on December 1, 2008 [1 favorite]
best of luck to you!
posted by anitanita at 9:05 PM on December 1, 2008 [1 favorite]
I've lived in a bunch of different places, and one place my kids remember fondly was a slum, where for me, the experience was no floor coverings (unpolished wood floors), having the house broken into a number of times and possessions stolen, living near scary people (ambulance and police regular visitors). Their experience was different - lots of little friends, and a happy home. When we talk about it now (they're teens), they're surprised by the things that were going on that I didn't make a big deal about back then (like living next door to a prostitute who got into a fight with her lover - police called and later, same property, different tenants, the woman there in a domestic fight, being pushed out the window and screaming "but I love you.")
So, you've hit the nail on the head, make the most of your environment. Make it the warmest, happiest home you can. Make friends with the neighbours, at least, make friends with the good neighbours - it's great when someone will stand up for you or watch out for you. Don't show fear or distress to your child. Maybe, try and see the good in the people in your street. Some of the kindest, strongest, most intelligent people I ever knew came from the wrong sides of the track. If there's a siren, frame it like "oh good, the police/ambulance have come to help someone who needs it. Isn't it wonderful that we have people like that to help if ever we need them."
I ramble, a summary: My kids didn't know any better, and they missed the negative nuances of their earlier years. Some of those folk around you might be really cool.
posted by b33j at 9:13 PM on December 1, 2008 [13 favorites]
So, you've hit the nail on the head, make the most of your environment. Make it the warmest, happiest home you can. Make friends with the neighbours, at least, make friends with the good neighbours - it's great when someone will stand up for you or watch out for you. Don't show fear or distress to your child. Maybe, try and see the good in the people in your street. Some of the kindest, strongest, most intelligent people I ever knew came from the wrong sides of the track. If there's a siren, frame it like "oh good, the police/ambulance have come to help someone who needs it. Isn't it wonderful that we have people like that to help if ever we need them."
I ramble, a summary: My kids didn't know any better, and they missed the negative nuances of their earlier years. Some of those folk around you might be really cool.
posted by b33j at 9:13 PM on December 1, 2008 [13 favorites]
I grew up in a similar situation to your daughter - educated parents in a small apartment in a "bad" inner-city neighborhood. When I was 8 we moved to an affluent suburb, but to be honest, my fondest childhood memories are of the city neighborhood. Apparently it was quite bad there, but I just remember all the fun I had running around with the neighbor kids, my fun afternoons at the Boys and Girls club and how cozy our small apartment seemed. And both my brother and I have done pretty well later in life.
To be honest, I sort of wonder if your attitude towards the neighborhood is more of a problem than the neighborhood itself. Kids are amazingly immune to the kind of stuff you're worrying about. But they do pick up on it when their parents are stressed and worried. It does sound like you guys have a lot to legitimately be worried about, but I don't know that this is another thing you necessarily need to add.
Also: Some of those folk around you might be really cool.
This, a million times. Obviously your first responsibility as a parent is your child's safety, but please don't try to shield your daughter to the point that she doesn't get to experience the cool things about your neighborhood. For instance, let her play with other kids. There's really no downside to letting her interact with kids from different backgrounds, especially at such a young age (it get more complicated when they get older).
posted by lunasol at 9:35 PM on December 1, 2008 [1 favorite]
To be honest, I sort of wonder if your attitude towards the neighborhood is more of a problem than the neighborhood itself. Kids are amazingly immune to the kind of stuff you're worrying about. But they do pick up on it when their parents are stressed and worried. It does sound like you guys have a lot to legitimately be worried about, but I don't know that this is another thing you necessarily need to add.
Also: Some of those folk around you might be really cool.
This, a million times. Obviously your first responsibility as a parent is your child's safety, but please don't try to shield your daughter to the point that she doesn't get to experience the cool things about your neighborhood. For instance, let her play with other kids. There's really no downside to letting her interact with kids from different backgrounds, especially at such a young age (it get more complicated when they get older).
posted by lunasol at 9:35 PM on December 1, 2008 [1 favorite]
Kids find magic in surprising places. As a child, I lived across the street from a demolished and abandoned amusement park. Some of my best childhood memories are of digging for old bottles and other "treasures" and exploring the remaining fragments of buildings. I was entertained by stories about our various colorful neighbors, but definitely trained to be suspicious. Be honest with your kid about how the world works, but don't instill a sense of fear. Don't let your kid see you scared. Try and get to know some of the other people in your neighborhood so that you feel a sense of community. Sometimes the parents of young children tend to seek out people with exactly the same family situation...try not to do this. You don't have to invite them over for dinner, but try to make small talk with some other people or business owners in your neighborhood.
posted by pluckysparrow at 9:46 PM on December 1, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by pluckysparrow at 9:46 PM on December 1, 2008 [2 favorites]
At the age your daughter is, she won't remember (or care) whether she grew up in a "bad" neighborhood. She will only remember whether she felt loved by her parents.
posted by amyms at 9:52 PM on December 1, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by amyms at 9:52 PM on December 1, 2008 [3 favorites]
As father figure, it breaks my heart that we are brining up our daughter in such an environment though I am doing everything within my power to try and get us out of this situation (disciplined financial budget, no credit cards, no mortgage). I am well aware that many have it worse but to be told that I should just be grateful for what we’ve got does not cut it. I know that as long as our daughter is loved that she is too young to pick up on the environment but I feel terrible. As I’m sure any of you who are parents know, you want to mollycoddle your offspring and protect them from the world.
What I am looking for is practical advice, especially from anyone who has been in a similar situation, as to how you make the best of living in such an environment.
My mother grew up on the west side of Chicago, just as it was crumbling into a poor, racially-divided and scary place. She was the youngest of a very large, very poor family, and (without going into boring detail) her mother made some choices that made her life sub-par, like keeping her out of school to run errands for her and such. On top of that, she lost her father when she was young.
And yet, she's a happy, pleasant, cheerful woman with intelligence and patience. She and my dad dragged themselves out of poverty, and raised us in their image -- which in both cases were images themselves built out of poverty and depressing environments.
So right off the bat, you can at least take some comfort in knowing that people are who they are, and can thrive over a lifetime even if they get their start in poverty and/or an oppressive environment.
More importantly, though, you have complete control over the environment in your own home. So, you can do for your child what I did for myself when I was poor and living on my own in a tenement in Uptown: make your home a clean, cheerful and happy place. Bright colors, good smells, music and smiling and laughter; these cost little and pay big dividends. Even if you have to walk through squalor to get home, if the door opens and sunshine leaps out, she'll feel happy and loved and safe. Which is everything a child wants in the world.
Good luck!
posted by davejay at 12:12 AM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
What I am looking for is practical advice, especially from anyone who has been in a similar situation, as to how you make the best of living in such an environment.
My mother grew up on the west side of Chicago, just as it was crumbling into a poor, racially-divided and scary place. She was the youngest of a very large, very poor family, and (without going into boring detail) her mother made some choices that made her life sub-par, like keeping her out of school to run errands for her and such. On top of that, she lost her father when she was young.
And yet, she's a happy, pleasant, cheerful woman with intelligence and patience. She and my dad dragged themselves out of poverty, and raised us in their image -- which in both cases were images themselves built out of poverty and depressing environments.
So right off the bat, you can at least take some comfort in knowing that people are who they are, and can thrive over a lifetime even if they get their start in poverty and/or an oppressive environment.
More importantly, though, you have complete control over the environment in your own home. So, you can do for your child what I did for myself when I was poor and living on my own in a tenement in Uptown: make your home a clean, cheerful and happy place. Bright colors, good smells, music and smiling and laughter; these cost little and pay big dividends. Even if you have to walk through squalor to get home, if the door opens and sunshine leaps out, she'll feel happy and loved and safe. Which is everything a child wants in the world.
Good luck!
posted by davejay at 12:12 AM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
If your community sucks, do something for it. It'll be a good model for your kids too.
posted by msittig at 12:49 AM on December 2, 2008 [4 favorites]
posted by msittig at 12:49 AM on December 2, 2008 [4 favorites]
My parents were in a very similar position as you are now when I was your daughter's age. We spent the next five or so years living in a wide assortment of grubby, inner-city dwellings and in relative poverty. I've since learned that this was a very dark period in my parents' lives, with constant fear for our safety and worries about making ends meet.
But, how do I remember these five years? They were awesome! I loved the city, and loved each and every one of our grubby, inner-city dwellings. My mother spent a lot of time with me - taking me to museums, libraries, parks, etc. - and kept the house clean and welcoming. As was already said, the people you meet may be strange to YOU, as an adult, but they are fascinating to kids. I remember all our weird neighbours, and all the neighbourhood kids. Inner-city life taught me important lessons about safety and trust at a very early age, and this has helped me later in life.
An anecdote: I remember the first time my mother saw a cockroach - she didn't know what it was, and was embarrassed to ask the neighbor for fear of them thinking our house was filthy. The neighbor's reaction? Oh, yeah, that's a cockroach. We get 'em all the time - just stomp on the little buggers. I thought the whole episode was hilarious.
My advice: spend time with your daughter, keep the house warm and welcoming, and don't worry too much about it. Kids don't really "get" their situation, on a personal level, until much later in life. Urban life is fascinating for kids, and you can tell them all sorts of interesting stories when they get older (So, this one time, there was this hooker... - teenagers would get a kick out of this kind of stuff).
I have nothing but the utmost respect for my parents for how they handled their situation, and I have the same respect for you. It's hard, but you'll pull through. Good luck, and I wish you all the best!
posted by wsp at 1:34 AM on December 2, 2008
But, how do I remember these five years? They were awesome! I loved the city, and loved each and every one of our grubby, inner-city dwellings. My mother spent a lot of time with me - taking me to museums, libraries, parks, etc. - and kept the house clean and welcoming. As was already said, the people you meet may be strange to YOU, as an adult, but they are fascinating to kids. I remember all our weird neighbours, and all the neighbourhood kids. Inner-city life taught me important lessons about safety and trust at a very early age, and this has helped me later in life.
An anecdote: I remember the first time my mother saw a cockroach - she didn't know what it was, and was embarrassed to ask the neighbor for fear of them thinking our house was filthy. The neighbor's reaction? Oh, yeah, that's a cockroach. We get 'em all the time - just stomp on the little buggers. I thought the whole episode was hilarious.
My advice: spend time with your daughter, keep the house warm and welcoming, and don't worry too much about it. Kids don't really "get" their situation, on a personal level, until much later in life. Urban life is fascinating for kids, and you can tell them all sorts of interesting stories when they get older (So, this one time, there was this hooker... - teenagers would get a kick out of this kind of stuff).
I have nothing but the utmost respect for my parents for how they handled their situation, and I have the same respect for you. It's hard, but you'll pull through. Good luck, and I wish you all the best!
posted by wsp at 1:34 AM on December 2, 2008
I grew up in that kind of environment. I don't feel it adversely impacted me, and here's why: I didn't go outside much, at least not around the neighborhood. I stayed inside and read, or used the computer. If I went out with friends, it wasn't in the neighborhood I lived in.
Sometimes I wished I could go outside and play, but it wasn't a huge deal. I wasn't thrilled about the prospect since I knew it was dangerous -- children, even toddlers, got raped sometimes in my neighborhood. I could watch TV or play video games for entertainment if I didn't have anything to read. I got physical activity at school.
Make sure you keep worthwhile indoor activities around, as best you can. If money is tight the library is a good place to find books. Be willing to take time to take them as often as they want to go. Some parents feel guilty about letting their kids watch TV or play video games, but they don't need to be learning 24/7. Supervise their TV shows if needed, and don't buy them video games you don't approve of. A good video game is a pretty cost effective toy for the hours they get out of it. Also, I learned a lot from educational TV shows, some video games, and the internet. I was inclined to seek out educational things, though, so you might have more trouble if your kids aren't so inclined.
On the upside it sounds like you have more than one kid, so they can play together. I had to entertain myself for the most part, but even that wasn't bad; once I was six or so, I quit wishing I had a brother or sister and I was happy to play by myself when my parents were busy. But you do need to make some time for them every day. My mom would play video games with me sometimes, or cards or board games. I would also cook with her or do arts and crafts, or we'd all watch TV or a movie together.
When you're indoors, it's very easy to forget the neighborhood you live in. My mom kept the run-down apartment looking quite nice. It was always clean, and even though part of the hallway floor was caving in, I didn't notice much. She made some tasteful decorations using things that were on sale from craft stores, but she's very good at that and makes a side business of it. Even if you guys aren't as talented, though, you can make it look presentable enough.
There was the whole issue of feeling safe, even while indoors. A couple of things mitigated this. First, we had several locks on our doors. Second, we lived in an upstairs apartment, so we were less likely to have anyone break in. That, and having my dad around was enough peace of mind for me. We lived there 20 years and never had anything happen to us, and it didn't take too long for me to quit expecting it to. (Incidentally, once my dad died last year we all forced my mom to move to a safer area.)
Yeah there were gunshots and police sirens, and there was nothing we could do about that. But I don't feel it had any negative impact on me. If anything, I think it was more helpful than growing up 100% sheltered. Had any violence come to us, though, I would probably feel differently.
posted by Nattie at 1:58 AM on December 2, 2008
Sometimes I wished I could go outside and play, but it wasn't a huge deal. I wasn't thrilled about the prospect since I knew it was dangerous -- children, even toddlers, got raped sometimes in my neighborhood. I could watch TV or play video games for entertainment if I didn't have anything to read. I got physical activity at school.
Make sure you keep worthwhile indoor activities around, as best you can. If money is tight the library is a good place to find books. Be willing to take time to take them as often as they want to go. Some parents feel guilty about letting their kids watch TV or play video games, but they don't need to be learning 24/7. Supervise their TV shows if needed, and don't buy them video games you don't approve of. A good video game is a pretty cost effective toy for the hours they get out of it. Also, I learned a lot from educational TV shows, some video games, and the internet. I was inclined to seek out educational things, though, so you might have more trouble if your kids aren't so inclined.
On the upside it sounds like you have more than one kid, so they can play together. I had to entertain myself for the most part, but even that wasn't bad; once I was six or so, I quit wishing I had a brother or sister and I was happy to play by myself when my parents were busy. But you do need to make some time for them every day. My mom would play video games with me sometimes, or cards or board games. I would also cook with her or do arts and crafts, or we'd all watch TV or a movie together.
When you're indoors, it's very easy to forget the neighborhood you live in. My mom kept the run-down apartment looking quite nice. It was always clean, and even though part of the hallway floor was caving in, I didn't notice much. She made some tasteful decorations using things that were on sale from craft stores, but she's very good at that and makes a side business of it. Even if you guys aren't as talented, though, you can make it look presentable enough.
There was the whole issue of feeling safe, even while indoors. A couple of things mitigated this. First, we had several locks on our doors. Second, we lived in an upstairs apartment, so we were less likely to have anyone break in. That, and having my dad around was enough peace of mind for me. We lived there 20 years and never had anything happen to us, and it didn't take too long for me to quit expecting it to. (Incidentally, once my dad died last year we all forced my mom to move to a safer area.)
Yeah there were gunshots and police sirens, and there was nothing we could do about that. But I don't feel it had any negative impact on me. If anything, I think it was more helpful than growing up 100% sheltered. Had any violence come to us, though, I would probably feel differently.
posted by Nattie at 1:58 AM on December 2, 2008
I spent the first ten years of my life in what Wikipedia cheerfully describes as one of the most socially deprived and violent areas in the country. Thing is, as a kid, it was just home to me and I didn't know anything different. I could look back in later life and feel my childhood was underprivileged, but I'd be being an ass because it really didn't feel that way at the time. There was factionalism and you had a shedload of trouble if you wandered into the next estate, but you pick that kind of thing up real quick and it's not going to be a problem for you for a few years yet.
When I was about ten, we moved to a village and it drove me nuts for a few years, so clean and prim and quiet...to this day, I find the suburbs, frankly, dull and lifeless.
posted by mandal at 1:59 AM on December 2, 2008
When I was about ten, we moved to a village and it drove me nuts for a few years, so clean and prim and quiet...to this day, I find the suburbs, frankly, dull and lifeless.
posted by mandal at 1:59 AM on December 2, 2008
Popping my head in to remind you that inner cities don't have the monopoly on poverty, violence, ugliness. My parents sound similar to yours, except that we lived in the most white trash part of a very white trash smallish, semirural town. We didn't have as many sirens, mainly because the sherriffs just wouldn't bother to come out when our neighbours had another screaming, violent domestic fight and threatened eachother with guns on their front lawn, again. There was what I know now to have been a meth lab in a house about a block from ours... teen pregnancy... white supremacist idiots running a couple of guns/motorcycles/hate literature/tattoo shops... just let your imagination run wild, and it very likely was happening in my neighbourhood.
In other words, safety aside, I'm addressing the part of your question that relates to "how can I keep my kids from thinking this is normal?"
My parents countered this in three ways: first, they were themselves. Your kids will pick up your values before they pick up anyone else's.
Second, we went to a private school in another part of town. Did we get static from classmates, etc, over where we lived? Sure. But we had friends, and we just didn't care too much. Part of the reason we lived in the neighbourhood we did was so that my parents could afford to give us a better education. We didn't have many extras, and it was pretty obvious we were poorer than our classmates. The thing is, we got a great education... and learned a lot about things like self worth, tolerance, acceptance, haves vs have nots, etc.
Third: we had tons of activities. Ballet, girl scouts, boy scouts, 4H, Job's Daughters, free crafts classes, book clubs at the local library. We'd take a trip out of town every so often to go to museums or to an event in the big cities near us. You're better off than we were - if you're in an inner city, you don't have to make the 3 hr drive my parents did to visit the same sorts of things.
posted by Grrlscout at 2:41 AM on December 2, 2008 [2 favorites]
In other words, safety aside, I'm addressing the part of your question that relates to "how can I keep my kids from thinking this is normal?"
My parents countered this in three ways: first, they were themselves. Your kids will pick up your values before they pick up anyone else's.
Second, we went to a private school in another part of town. Did we get static from classmates, etc, over where we lived? Sure. But we had friends, and we just didn't care too much. Part of the reason we lived in the neighbourhood we did was so that my parents could afford to give us a better education. We didn't have many extras, and it was pretty obvious we were poorer than our classmates. The thing is, we got a great education... and learned a lot about things like self worth, tolerance, acceptance, haves vs have nots, etc.
Third: we had tons of activities. Ballet, girl scouts, boy scouts, 4H, Job's Daughters, free crafts classes, book clubs at the local library. We'd take a trip out of town every so often to go to museums or to an event in the big cities near us. You're better off than we were - if you're in an inner city, you don't have to make the 3 hr drive my parents did to visit the same sorts of things.
posted by Grrlscout at 2:41 AM on December 2, 2008 [2 favorites]
This is exactly the kind of environment my family and I live in (2 adults, one 4 year old). We had a gang-related murder 100 yards from our front door on Sunday morning. My husband and I are also both degree educated and I teach at the local university. We "deal" with it by getting involved with our ward block clubs, the soup kitchen, the social services and by getting to know the panhandlers + prostitutes + homeless who walk the street (the big time drug dealers and gang folks generally avoid us, but we know our share of the petty dealers).
We call the cops. We clean up the litter. We plant flowers and cultivate a little garden. We try to make a difference. On Thanksgiving I insisted we go for a walk while our daughter biked along, very happily, on a truly broken sidewalk. My argument was that engaging in positive and very public behavior in the environment would send a message to others to come out and take back the streets. Not that there are not fears and unanticipated stresses, but we try to anticipate as many different situations and prepare ourselves to react to them.
posted by tidecat at 4:28 AM on December 2, 2008 [10 favorites]
We call the cops. We clean up the litter. We plant flowers and cultivate a little garden. We try to make a difference. On Thanksgiving I insisted we go for a walk while our daughter biked along, very happily, on a truly broken sidewalk. My argument was that engaging in positive and very public behavior in the environment would send a message to others to come out and take back the streets. Not that there are not fears and unanticipated stresses, but we try to anticipate as many different situations and prepare ourselves to react to them.
posted by tidecat at 4:28 AM on December 2, 2008 [10 favorites]
Popping my head in to remind you that inner cities don't have the monopoly on poverty, violence, ugliness. My parents sound similar to yours, except that we lived in the most white trash part of a very white trash smallish, semirural town.
Me too! (Except I went to the rough-and-tumble local school, not the private one.) And I turned out ok, I think -- it was good for me to have friends who were from very different kinds of families, and to be able to try different things as a kid that wouldn't have been possible in a tidy suburb. It was tough sometimes, but good overall.
So looking back on my experience as a kid, I'd say "don't worry so much." If you are ok and relaxed, your kid will just take life as it is -- she will absorb and reflect your values, while finding a way to coexist in a tough neighborhood.
But as an adult, I'd also question why you feel you are stuck there. There are always options, and if you genuinely feel that your child is at risk, why are you not fighting tooth and nail to find a better environment? Are there avenues (including international work, small towns with cheaper costs of living, social services programs, going back to school, caretaking, or any of a thousand other things) that you haven't yet explored?
I guess I'm saying that I don't think your neighborhood is a dreadful place for your child, but you are the one there, and if you are really concerned about it, I'm challenging you as to what you are doing now to change that situation? Shit or get off the pot, as we so elegantly like to say over here.
posted by Forktine at 5:52 AM on December 2, 2008
Me too! (Except I went to the rough-and-tumble local school, not the private one.) And I turned out ok, I think -- it was good for me to have friends who were from very different kinds of families, and to be able to try different things as a kid that wouldn't have been possible in a tidy suburb. It was tough sometimes, but good overall.
So looking back on my experience as a kid, I'd say "don't worry so much." If you are ok and relaxed, your kid will just take life as it is -- she will absorb and reflect your values, while finding a way to coexist in a tough neighborhood.
But as an adult, I'd also question why you feel you are stuck there. There are always options, and if you genuinely feel that your child is at risk, why are you not fighting tooth and nail to find a better environment? Are there avenues (including international work, small towns with cheaper costs of living, social services programs, going back to school, caretaking, or any of a thousand other things) that you haven't yet explored?
I guess I'm saying that I don't think your neighborhood is a dreadful place for your child, but you are the one there, and if you are really concerned about it, I'm challenging you as to what you are doing now to change that situation? Shit or get off the pot, as we so elegantly like to say over here.
posted by Forktine at 5:52 AM on December 2, 2008
"I have been accosted by prostitutes on my walk home (though couldn’t bear to tell my wife) and am offered drugs and/or pan handled with alarming alacrity."
Was is the mere presence of prostitutes, the being accosted, or the notion of mentioning it to your wife that felt (as I read it) shameful to you?
It may be easier for you and your wife to cope with the aspects of your environment that make you uncomfortable if you are able to discuss your experiences with each other. Not telling your wife about being accosted by a prostitute (or similar events, over time) may end up contributing to feelings of shame and hopelessness than sharing them with each other and discussing coping strategies. Trying to ignore social dysfunction is probably less productive than recognizing it and adapting.
posted by onshi at 6:47 AM on December 2, 2008
Was is the mere presence of prostitutes, the being accosted, or the notion of mentioning it to your wife that felt (as I read it) shameful to you?
It may be easier for you and your wife to cope with the aspects of your environment that make you uncomfortable if you are able to discuss your experiences with each other. Not telling your wife about being accosted by a prostitute (or similar events, over time) may end up contributing to feelings of shame and hopelessness than sharing them with each other and discussing coping strategies. Trying to ignore social dysfunction is probably less productive than recognizing it and adapting.
posted by onshi at 6:47 AM on December 2, 2008
It's a learning opportunity, if you make it so. Find the interesting ethnic shops and explore different foods. Go to different church services. Find the nearest parks and playgrounds, and every time you visit, pick up a little litter, or organize a cleanup effort. Maybe you used to have money, and maybe you aren't accustomed to how to live in the new community you're in. Teach your kids to find the best in other people, to be adventurous, to stay true to their own values, to make the world a little bit better.
posted by theora55 at 7:14 AM on December 2, 2008
posted by theora55 at 7:14 AM on December 2, 2008
i don't have much to add to the discussion, but i want to say that you shouldn't "hide" being propositioned from your wife. 1, it's not your fault; 2, it's funny. we don't live in a Bad Neighborhood, but we do have hookers and petty drug dealers. it's just the way it is an part of our environment. i'm not saying it's great that you live in a neighborhood with all this going on, but you have to be able to laugh at it sometimes.
posted by misanthropicsarah at 7:16 AM on December 2, 2008
posted by misanthropicsarah at 7:16 AM on December 2, 2008
I have not been in your situation, but I hope you won't mind a suggestion that might just be the dumbest one you've ever heard.
Would it be possible for the three of you to move to a better neighborhood with a good school district but in a smaller apartment that might cost as much as what you have now?
Please carry on if that is the dumbest ever suggestion.
posted by anniecat at 7:19 AM on December 2, 2008
Would it be possible for the three of you to move to a better neighborhood with a good school district but in a smaller apartment that might cost as much as what you have now?
Please carry on if that is the dumbest ever suggestion.
posted by anniecat at 7:19 AM on December 2, 2008
I'm on eof the people how grew up in an urban not so safe neighborhood. It wasn't a ghetto by any means but, there was drug related violence and break-ins. I have always viewed this as a major asset. While my parents were stressed about how the neighborhood got worse instead of better (as they had hoped), I was able to feel comfortable with a large degree of diversity.
I feel bad for people who grew up always in the suburbs. They are reluctant to use public transit, had less freedom because they often needed to rely on their parents for transportation. It pains me to see people who are frightened and scared of inner cities.
It gave me the street smarts that helped me as a young adult, traveling and living in way worse neighborhoods. I know to lock my door, that curtains are important, how to walk down the street with confidence late at night, be aware of my surroundings.
Nthing everyone above. I didn't notice this as a child, they're were lots of kids to play with, lots of trips to the park, museums, and the library. I definitely learned that everyone's family wasn't like mine, and that's a good thing.
posted by Gor-ella at 8:16 AM on December 2, 2008
I feel bad for people who grew up always in the suburbs. They are reluctant to use public transit, had less freedom because they often needed to rely on their parents for transportation. It pains me to see people who are frightened and scared of inner cities.
It gave me the street smarts that helped me as a young adult, traveling and living in way worse neighborhoods. I know to lock my door, that curtains are important, how to walk down the street with confidence late at night, be aware of my surroundings.
Nthing everyone above. I didn't notice this as a child, they're were lots of kids to play with, lots of trips to the park, museums, and the library. I definitely learned that everyone's family wasn't like mine, and that's a good thing.
posted by Gor-ella at 8:16 AM on December 2, 2008
I believe that the inward-turning of families is usually called "nesting" or "cocooning" -- and for myself I say it's quite a good thing. Your children get more of your time and less with the TV/computer/whatever, which is almost always an unqualified good, and it's probably cheaper, too.
posted by wenestvedt at 9:02 AM on December 2, 2008
posted by wenestvedt at 9:02 AM on December 2, 2008
Living in Ft. Green Brooklyn early 80's with our two year old at the peak of the crack years was hard (you can't imagine seeing it now). We went to the library or museum zoo aquarium. Swept the playground and raked through the sand (glass needles shit). On the subway or the street watched where we sat or stepped and tried to ignore the depravity, but still I always tried to block myself between my family and a potential bad situation. Children see the beauty of a weed coming through a crack in the cement and will always stop to look at it. Just wash their hands later.
posted by pianomover at 11:13 AM on December 2, 2008
posted by pianomover at 11:13 AM on December 2, 2008
There was a story on NPR the other day about a mom & two kids who were held hostage over a few days but the kids never knew because the mom was able to keep her cool and act like the guy was just a friend staying over. The kids apparently grew up not even remembering the incident - which is to say, you can really shape their experiences by the way you respond to things. They'll take cues from you more than from the environment.
They don't necessarily know that "run down" means "depressing" - you know that because it already has connotations of not having money, failing in life, being trapped in a certain mode of life. But to children, it is just new shapes and sounds and colors and people. Everything is novel and interesting. You interpret for them what it means. You show them what is "bad" or "good" by your reactions to the larger world.
To show them this isn't where they want to live in eventually, you show them other places on the weekends, by going to parks or museums or just longer walks, etc. To show them that it isn't so bad, you get to know the community and the strengths of where you live. To show them that you can always make your own space whatever is going on around you, you work on having a happy home. But to show them that you live in a bad, scary neighborhood, you rush home dragging them and looking worried, sigh a lot, frown whenever you hear a siren, shake your head and argue with your spouse about how awful it is that you live here...
You can have larger plans without hating where you are, so try to remember that your daughter is unlikely to mind as much as you. It is still all completely new to her.
posted by mdn at 11:51 AM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
They don't necessarily know that "run down" means "depressing" - you know that because it already has connotations of not having money, failing in life, being trapped in a certain mode of life. But to children, it is just new shapes and sounds and colors and people. Everything is novel and interesting. You interpret for them what it means. You show them what is "bad" or "good" by your reactions to the larger world.
To show them this isn't where they want to live in eventually, you show them other places on the weekends, by going to parks or museums or just longer walks, etc. To show them that it isn't so bad, you get to know the community and the strengths of where you live. To show them that you can always make your own space whatever is going on around you, you work on having a happy home. But to show them that you live in a bad, scary neighborhood, you rush home dragging them and looking worried, sigh a lot, frown whenever you hear a siren, shake your head and argue with your spouse about how awful it is that you live here...
You can have larger plans without hating where you are, so try to remember that your daughter is unlikely to mind as much as you. It is still all completely new to her.
posted by mdn at 11:51 AM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
My advice comes from living in Ft. Greene, Brooklyn for six years with kids (after most -- but not all -- of the crack got swept up), so YMMV, but...
What do your college degrees and private school educations have to do with the problem of raising a 2-year-old in an impoverished neighborhood, other than being both a resource and advantage?
As others upthread have pointed out (with more grace than I can muster) it's probably not helpful to anyone -- you, your daughter, or your neighbors -- to imply that because you and your wife were "degree educated and were both privately educated," whores and panhandlers pain you in a way that a lesser class of folk can't understand.
On the other hand, if your concern is not "Help me and my equally overeducated wife stop feeling sorry for ourselves for living among people of a lower social class," but "Help my toddler maximize her intellectual capacity in a setting that does not foster such growth," I can fully understand. I left Brooklyn 1 1/2 years ago, feeling this way about my family's situation. So my suggestion would be to follow the advice upthread about getting out of your neighborhood and showing your daughter the glories that must exist elsewhere in your city. With your college degrees and private school educations, it shouldn't be that hard for you to find the books, magazines, and websites titled something approximating "100 Best Things to Do With Kids In [Your City]" -- the ones that list the science museums, child-friendly art galleries, libraries, and the free weekend festivals. But if you need help, I am pretty sure children's librarians pretty much exist to help parents find this kind of information.
And then, when your child reaches school age, if you feel the local school is nothing but a soul-crushing pit of despair (or if it simply has real -- not perceived -- safety issues), then yes, move. Move to the smallest home in the best possible school district, financed by the biggest rent or mortgage you can afford every month (and welcome yourself to my life). And keep taking your daughter to the museums, galleries, libraries, and festivals.
posted by hhc5 at 2:22 PM on December 2, 2008 [2 favorites]
What do your college degrees and private school educations have to do with the problem of raising a 2-year-old in an impoverished neighborhood, other than being both a resource and advantage?
As others upthread have pointed out (with more grace than I can muster) it's probably not helpful to anyone -- you, your daughter, or your neighbors -- to imply that because you and your wife were "degree educated and were both privately educated," whores and panhandlers pain you in a way that a lesser class of folk can't understand.
On the other hand, if your concern is not "Help me and my equally overeducated wife stop feeling sorry for ourselves for living among people of a lower social class," but "Help my toddler maximize her intellectual capacity in a setting that does not foster such growth," I can fully understand. I left Brooklyn 1 1/2 years ago, feeling this way about my family's situation. So my suggestion would be to follow the advice upthread about getting out of your neighborhood and showing your daughter the glories that must exist elsewhere in your city. With your college degrees and private school educations, it shouldn't be that hard for you to find the books, magazines, and websites titled something approximating "100 Best Things to Do With Kids In [Your City]" -- the ones that list the science museums, child-friendly art galleries, libraries, and the free weekend festivals. But if you need help, I am pretty sure children's librarians pretty much exist to help parents find this kind of information.
And then, when your child reaches school age, if you feel the local school is nothing but a soul-crushing pit of despair (or if it simply has real -- not perceived -- safety issues), then yes, move. Move to the smallest home in the best possible school district, financed by the biggest rent or mortgage you can afford every month (and welcome yourself to my life). And keep taking your daughter to the museums, galleries, libraries, and festivals.
posted by hhc5 at 2:22 PM on December 2, 2008 [2 favorites]
You can learn a very valuable skill living in a 'bad' neighbourhoods - that of protecting your children, and making sure that adult problems, are not your kids problems.
One time, I was watching TV, and my mother said she was going to to get some milk. I didn't pay it any attention. Actually, someone had been stabbed on our doorstep, and she was driving them to the hospital.
Also, expected events are not frightening to small children, unexpected ones are. No matter how odd it is, explain what future events will happen from the perspective of your child, avoiding extraneous explanations.
When I was 4, we coming back into the country, and my mother was resigned to the fact she'd probably be stopped by customs. :P
So, she told me that after the plane ride, we'd get off the plane, and then we'd [do the gate thing like we had before], and that then, some people might want to ask her some questions. So if that happened, we'd go into another room for them to ask her some questions, and she might go into another room for a little while, and if that happened, I could ask for some water or to go toilet if I needed, but I didn't have to talk to them if I didn't want too. And afterwards, we'd go through some more doors, and then there would be Nana & Grandad waiting for us! And then we'd all drive home to their house for tea, and I could tell them all about our trip.
And everything happened juuuust like she'd said! I had a water, and went toilet, and looked at my picture book, and ignored the people who kept trying to talk to me, because I didn't know them and Mum said I didn't have to talk to them, so I didn't. And then we saw Nana & Grandad! And I told them all about the trip! And we had dinner!
What could have been a scary experience for a small child, felt instead, all 'normal' and expected.
You can use that general principle for much more minor events.
Also, learning not to complain to your children - and mentioning financial problems around them, counts as complaining to them, when they can't do anything, is also good.
Why do I say these are good skills to learn in a bad neighbourhood? I've known parents, and friends parents, who, not having to deal with these things, were incapable of it when needed, which stressed their child out. They didn't get their children out of the way when something scary happened. They were dealing with someone nice and middle-class who was throwing a tempter tantrum or freakout, and weren't familiar enough with it to say - Cut it out. Not in front of my children.
Upper class/upper-middle class families that dropped to say 'merely' lower middle class families, and who severely frightened their children with money worries (the're children - they're not going to have the experience or sense of scale to know how 'bad' this is going to be. Does losing the house mean no home? Will they be homeless? Etc? Really, your kids don't care if you rent or own... at least til they're older :P ).
Oh, and go visit a nice park on the weekends. And the library story-times.
And eat out at someplace cheap but fun, every few weeks, as a special treat. Skipping fast-food joints means they won't compare it to kids who get junk-food/McD's etc regularly (as bad as that is, but again, they won't *know* that). It's fun.
Have your kid go on holiday. To family members houses (especially from diverse backgrounds, economic strata etc), the beach, or go somewhere yourself when you can. Very few of the kids at the very poor school I was at, went on holiday. I on the otherhand, got packed off with my cousins on all sides, and even to my Uncle-by-marriages sibling's families (yeah, try and work that one out!). To stay with people who owned their own home. Who could rent a holiday/beach cottage, who could own a holiday/beach cottage as well. It widened my idea of what my own lifestyle could look like. Otherwise, I think people tend to take it from their immediate surroundings (and we were living in a caravan some of the time).
Good luck!
posted by Elysum at 4:43 PM on December 2, 2008
One time, I was watching TV, and my mother said she was going to to get some milk. I didn't pay it any attention. Actually, someone had been stabbed on our doorstep, and she was driving them to the hospital.
Also, expected events are not frightening to small children, unexpected ones are. No matter how odd it is, explain what future events will happen from the perspective of your child, avoiding extraneous explanations.
When I was 4, we coming back into the country, and my mother was resigned to the fact she'd probably be stopped by customs. :P
So, she told me that after the plane ride, we'd get off the plane, and then we'd [do the gate thing like we had before], and that then, some people might want to ask her some questions. So if that happened, we'd go into another room for them to ask her some questions, and she might go into another room for a little while, and if that happened, I could ask for some water or to go toilet if I needed, but I didn't have to talk to them if I didn't want too. And afterwards, we'd go through some more doors, and then there would be Nana & Grandad waiting for us! And then we'd all drive home to their house for tea, and I could tell them all about our trip.
And everything happened juuuust like she'd said! I had a water, and went toilet, and looked at my picture book, and ignored the people who kept trying to talk to me, because I didn't know them and Mum said I didn't have to talk to them, so I didn't. And then we saw Nana & Grandad! And I told them all about the trip! And we had dinner!
What could have been a scary experience for a small child, felt instead, all 'normal' and expected.
You can use that general principle for much more minor events.
Also, learning not to complain to your children - and mentioning financial problems around them, counts as complaining to them, when they can't do anything, is also good.
Why do I say these are good skills to learn in a bad neighbourhood? I've known parents, and friends parents, who, not having to deal with these things, were incapable of it when needed, which stressed their child out. They didn't get their children out of the way when something scary happened. They were dealing with someone nice and middle-class who was throwing a tempter tantrum or freakout, and weren't familiar enough with it to say - Cut it out. Not in front of my children.
Upper class/upper-middle class families that dropped to say 'merely' lower middle class families, and who severely frightened their children with money worries (the're children - they're not going to have the experience or sense of scale to know how 'bad' this is going to be. Does losing the house mean no home? Will they be homeless? Etc? Really, your kids don't care if you rent or own... at least til they're older :P ).
Oh, and go visit a nice park on the weekends. And the library story-times.
And eat out at someplace cheap but fun, every few weeks, as a special treat. Skipping fast-food joints means they won't compare it to kids who get junk-food/McD's etc regularly (as bad as that is, but again, they won't *know* that). It's fun.
Have your kid go on holiday. To family members houses (especially from diverse backgrounds, economic strata etc), the beach, or go somewhere yourself when you can. Very few of the kids at the very poor school I was at, went on holiday. I on the otherhand, got packed off with my cousins on all sides, and even to my Uncle-by-marriages sibling's families (yeah, try and work that one out!). To stay with people who owned their own home. Who could rent a holiday/beach cottage, who could own a holiday/beach cottage as well. It widened my idea of what my own lifestyle could look like. Otherwise, I think people tend to take it from their immediate surroundings (and we were living in a caravan some of the time).
Good luck!
posted by Elysum at 4:43 PM on December 2, 2008
My experience is much tamer than yours and many others posted here, but: I spent the first fourteen years of my life in a trailer home which could kindly be described as 'disgusting'. The roof and floor were both filled with holes - every time it rained or snowed, we were forced to dash around the house placing buckets under every place the roof leaked (one of which was on the back of the couch where I slept, since the bedroom was hot and insecty - several nights I woke up drenched in rainwater); there was a certain spot in the hallway that one always had to remember to step over, since it was literally a gaping hole covered with a bit of rug. There was also a tendency of our house to attract insects (not a summer day went by when my father wasn't catching a wasp to take it outside), bats, and other small animals (my mother was once awakened in the middle of the night by an opossum). We lived on the end of a row of fraternity houses - needless to say, Thursday-Sunday nights were nigh-impossible to sleep; the other side of our house was home to a woman who owned a rather vicious dog.
Yet for much of the time I spent there, I was perfectly happy. As far as I knew, it was home. I distinctly recall refusing when, at the age of eight, my mother asked me if I'd like to move. Now, of course, I look back in horror, but it seemed quite natural to me at the time. I managed to escape with no ill effects, either. (Well, except for a serious phobia of dogs, but that likely would have developed with or without our neighbors.) So - I concur with most of what has been said here. Keep your daughter as safe as possible; if that means keeping her under your watch every minute, then by all means do so. But don't feel as if raising her in that neighborhood alone will damage her. Keep your house cheerful and bright and let her know how much she is loved.
(As a point of contrast, my best friend in the neighborhood for about two years was a girl three years older. Her mother suffered from depression and migraines, and their home - as much as I can remember - was constantly dark and suffocatingly still. I never felt as if there was much connection between my friend and her mother; she seemed to be much closer to her brother, who was at a reform school of some sort at the time. The last I heard of my friend, she had dropped out of school at fifteen after becoming pregnant and had been heavily into drug use. This is not to say that parents with depression fail their children, of course, but simply - the home environment can have devastating effects.)
posted by punchdrunkhistory at 6:55 PM on December 2, 2008
Yet for much of the time I spent there, I was perfectly happy. As far as I knew, it was home. I distinctly recall refusing when, at the age of eight, my mother asked me if I'd like to move. Now, of course, I look back in horror, but it seemed quite natural to me at the time. I managed to escape with no ill effects, either. (Well, except for a serious phobia of dogs, but that likely would have developed with or without our neighbors.) So - I concur with most of what has been said here. Keep your daughter as safe as possible; if that means keeping her under your watch every minute, then by all means do so. But don't feel as if raising her in that neighborhood alone will damage her. Keep your house cheerful and bright and let her know how much she is loved.
(As a point of contrast, my best friend in the neighborhood for about two years was a girl three years older. Her mother suffered from depression and migraines, and their home - as much as I can remember - was constantly dark and suffocatingly still. I never felt as if there was much connection between my friend and her mother; she seemed to be much closer to her brother, who was at a reform school of some sort at the time. The last I heard of my friend, she had dropped out of school at fifteen after becoming pregnant and had been heavily into drug use. This is not to say that parents with depression fail their children, of course, but simply - the home environment can have devastating effects.)
posted by punchdrunkhistory at 6:55 PM on December 2, 2008
I haven't read any of the posts above... But one thing you can do is make your own living space nice without going to great expense. For example, a plant, some fish, some candles, a fresh coat of paint, flowers, are all things that aren't very expensive but can make a great difference in how you feel about your home.
posted by bananafish at 9:46 PM on December 2, 2008
posted by bananafish at 9:46 PM on December 2, 2008
The aphorisms that haves worked for my 3 children as they've grown and matured and achieved markedly more success than their parents is as follows: "The more time you spend with them young the less time you worry over them old. To a child there is no such thing as quality time, there is only time."
posted by ptm at 6:51 AM on December 3, 2008
posted by ptm at 6:51 AM on December 3, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
While you might want to avoid having the outside of your house look too good, if you're in a crime-ridden area, you can make the inside of your house warm and comfortable and, especially, clean.
Don't acquire things that are difficult to keep clean or working; if you get overburdened by things that are grubby or non-functioning, this will get depressing quickly. Also, keeping up these things will take time away from your happiness.
posted by amtho at 8:59 PM on December 1, 2008 [7 favorites]