Ethics and Ethnicity
October 27, 2008 7:09 PM
How to practice ethics and negotiate ethnicity as a gay man?
Hey everyone,
It's been a while since I've been on this site! So here's my situation ... Last month, I went on five dates with a guy I really started to like. I'll call him Mr. A. We were physical and slept together a few times, but we've never even had oral sex. After our fourth date, I think he began to see that I was growing closer to him. This is when he went missing for about a week and later sent me an e-mail apologizing for having been out of touch. He explained that he's been in a bizarre "non-relationship" with his ex (whom he had been with for almost four years), that the two still have residual feelings for each other, and that he had also been dating a couple of other guys while he was seeing me. He then asked whether I'd like to take things slowly because he still likes me but needs time to sort out his feelings. I responded saying that I think it's best we go forward only as friends because, the way things stand, I'm not the focus of his attention. I'm not really interested in a friends-with-benefit deal.
I went to a house party of his recently and met a friend of his who I think is very handsome. I'll call him Mr. B. I think Mr. B was being somewhat flirtatious with me, but there was nothing so overt in his behavior as to make me certain of this. Eventually, all of Mr. A's friends left his party and we had a little chat. A part of me missed his presence in a strange way. I was somewhat tipsy and we ended up making out and sleeping together at his place (though, again, we didn't have any kind of sex). The next morning, the ambiguity of our friendship began to disturb me, so I told him that I don't think we should have anything physical going forward (because I don't want to get emotionally attached to him when he is still sorting his feelings out for his ex). Mr. A said he appreciated my maturity and honesty, understands how I feel, and was glad I brought it up. So I've demarcated the boundaries of my friendship with Mr. A. (I also randomly found out from Mr. A that Mr. B and he dated briefly back in their college days but are now just good friends).
I added Mr. B on an online social networking website and sent a brief note saying it was nice to meet him and that we should hang out soon. He responded saying it was good to meet you too and, yes, let's hang soon. He then invited me to his birthday party which is in a week and a half and I plan to attend. I feel attracted to Mr. B and want to ask him out to coffee, but I don't want that to rub Mr. A the wrong way. Technically, I suppose it isn't any of Mr. A's business. We weren't in a relationship and I have made it clear that I only want to be friends going forward. I guess I'm just worried that Mr. A might feel that I'm a jerk for going after one of his friends? Or maybe this is a non-issue? I'd love to hear your thoughts on whether or not this is unethical. This is the first part of my question.
The second component is that I am not white like both of these guys. (I am South Asian). In the case of Mr. A, he was very clearly interested in me and he initiated the communication, so ethnicity was never an obstacle for him. I'm not sure what Mr. B thinks. I mention this because whenever I try to forge connections with gay white men, I am almost always turned down well before they have a chance to see my personality. I am not generally perceived to be ugly and have been told by my family, friends, and (even a few white guys at that house party, go figure!) that I'm attractive. I'm not saying this to inflate my ego, just to note that I think many white and Latino men who have only developed a taste for their own ethnic kind (since they are the two dominant ethnicities in this country) tend not to take much interest in men who are in a small ethnic minority (and therefore exoticized and/or neglected when it comes to dating). My other qualms about asking Mr. B out for coffee, then, is that, since I am in just such an ethnic minority, I will be rejected solely on those grounds. One way of resolving this is to say, "Well, you don't know that with certainty, and you have nothing to lose, so just message him and see what happens." Fair enough, but this doesn't solve the larger problematic of ethnicity and how it's perceived in our culture. Do you all have any opinions about whether this is a problem in your gay scene/communities? I live in a major gay metropolis, but that in itself is no antidote to this peculiar form of discrimination.
Sorry to ramble as usual .... :)
Hey everyone,
It's been a while since I've been on this site! So here's my situation ... Last month, I went on five dates with a guy I really started to like. I'll call him Mr. A. We were physical and slept together a few times, but we've never even had oral sex. After our fourth date, I think he began to see that I was growing closer to him. This is when he went missing for about a week and later sent me an e-mail apologizing for having been out of touch. He explained that he's been in a bizarre "non-relationship" with his ex (whom he had been with for almost four years), that the two still have residual feelings for each other, and that he had also been dating a couple of other guys while he was seeing me. He then asked whether I'd like to take things slowly because he still likes me but needs time to sort out his feelings. I responded saying that I think it's best we go forward only as friends because, the way things stand, I'm not the focus of his attention. I'm not really interested in a friends-with-benefit deal.
I went to a house party of his recently and met a friend of his who I think is very handsome. I'll call him Mr. B. I think Mr. B was being somewhat flirtatious with me, but there was nothing so overt in his behavior as to make me certain of this. Eventually, all of Mr. A's friends left his party and we had a little chat. A part of me missed his presence in a strange way. I was somewhat tipsy and we ended up making out and sleeping together at his place (though, again, we didn't have any kind of sex). The next morning, the ambiguity of our friendship began to disturb me, so I told him that I don't think we should have anything physical going forward (because I don't want to get emotionally attached to him when he is still sorting his feelings out for his ex). Mr. A said he appreciated my maturity and honesty, understands how I feel, and was glad I brought it up. So I've demarcated the boundaries of my friendship with Mr. A. (I also randomly found out from Mr. A that Mr. B and he dated briefly back in their college days but are now just good friends).
I added Mr. B on an online social networking website and sent a brief note saying it was nice to meet him and that we should hang out soon. He responded saying it was good to meet you too and, yes, let's hang soon. He then invited me to his birthday party which is in a week and a half and I plan to attend. I feel attracted to Mr. B and want to ask him out to coffee, but I don't want that to rub Mr. A the wrong way. Technically, I suppose it isn't any of Mr. A's business. We weren't in a relationship and I have made it clear that I only want to be friends going forward. I guess I'm just worried that Mr. A might feel that I'm a jerk for going after one of his friends? Or maybe this is a non-issue? I'd love to hear your thoughts on whether or not this is unethical. This is the first part of my question.
The second component is that I am not white like both of these guys. (I am South Asian). In the case of Mr. A, he was very clearly interested in me and he initiated the communication, so ethnicity was never an obstacle for him. I'm not sure what Mr. B thinks. I mention this because whenever I try to forge connections with gay white men, I am almost always turned down well before they have a chance to see my personality. I am not generally perceived to be ugly and have been told by my family, friends, and (even a few white guys at that house party, go figure!) that I'm attractive. I'm not saying this to inflate my ego, just to note that I think many white and Latino men who have only developed a taste for their own ethnic kind (since they are the two dominant ethnicities in this country) tend not to take much interest in men who are in a small ethnic minority (and therefore exoticized and/or neglected when it comes to dating). My other qualms about asking Mr. B out for coffee, then, is that, since I am in just such an ethnic minority, I will be rejected solely on those grounds. One way of resolving this is to say, "Well, you don't know that with certainty, and you have nothing to lose, so just message him and see what happens." Fair enough, but this doesn't solve the larger problematic of ethnicity and how it's perceived in our culture. Do you all have any opinions about whether this is a problem in your gay scene/communities? I live in a major gay metropolis, but that in itself is no antidote to this peculiar form of discrimination.
Sorry to ramble as usual .... :)
Lot to parse, there.
It appears you had a one night stand with your ex and you'd now like to go out for coffee with his ex-boyfriend from many years ago. It also appears that your ex is comfortable being your ex, seeing as you've laid down some boundaries (after the one night stand).
I don't see any issue with you dating someone else, regardless of their previous relationships with your friends. If you and your ex are truly friends, then any tension this generates seems like needless drama. If there remain feelings between you and Mr. A, then you should address those feelings (those this, of course, discredits the delineations of your aforementioned "boundaries.")
I don't completely understand how your ethnicity is playing into this - it seems rather tertiary to the general love-triangle drama that's already in play.
What makes you think that you are in a situation where your ethnicity is a hindrance? Most of my same-sex loving male friends have never expressed the kind of racism you're implying in choosing their mates - in fact, I've found the gay community (where I live) to be refreshingly open and desegregated. Not to imply that there isn't racism to be found in all social circles - I'm just interested in knowing more about why you feel "neglected"?
posted by Baby_Balrog at 7:41 PM on October 27, 2008
It appears you had a one night stand with your ex and you'd now like to go out for coffee with his ex-boyfriend from many years ago. It also appears that your ex is comfortable being your ex, seeing as you've laid down some boundaries (after the one night stand).
I don't see any issue with you dating someone else, regardless of their previous relationships with your friends. If you and your ex are truly friends, then any tension this generates seems like needless drama. If there remain feelings between you and Mr. A, then you should address those feelings (those this, of course, discredits the delineations of your aforementioned "boundaries.")
I don't completely understand how your ethnicity is playing into this - it seems rather tertiary to the general love-triangle drama that's already in play.
What makes you think that you are in a situation where your ethnicity is a hindrance? Most of my same-sex loving male friends have never expressed the kind of racism you're implying in choosing their mates - in fact, I've found the gay community (where I live) to be refreshingly open and desegregated. Not to imply that there isn't racism to be found in all social circles - I'm just interested in knowing more about why you feel "neglected"?
posted by Baby_Balrog at 7:41 PM on October 27, 2008
What Fiasco says. You seem very aware of the social dynamics of your group. Maybe even too aware. Don't over-analyze. See what happens. You aren't being unethical by entering into any of this. Often we go out of our way to avoid conflict, but in this case, I don't believe you are taking many risks. If obstacles arise, deal with them then. Until then, have fun.
posted by greta simone at 7:44 PM on October 27, 2008
posted by greta simone at 7:44 PM on October 27, 2008
My other qualms about asking Mr. B out for coffee, then, is that, since I am in just such an ethnic minority, I will be rejected solely on those grounds.
man, you are overthinking this a bit. if someone is attracted to you, good; if not, then he's not and it's his loss. you can't change what people are attracted to and you can't change who you are, only how you react to particular situations—in this case, chalk it up to experience and move on. there are a zillion other fish in the sea. gay men (and straight men and women and lesbians and bisexuals) reject potential partners for all kinds of stupid and not so stupid reasons. it happens. it sucks.
also, honestly, the big concern i have i have is figuring out if a dude finds me attractive because i'm smart, hot and funny or because he has a creepy asian fetish, and i find this to be the case with both my other asian straight girl friends and asian gay friends. realizing someone wants to date you mainly because of their weird ideas of what someone of your ethnicity should be like instead of what you yourself are actually like is gross, and has happened to me more times than i can even begin to remember.
posted by lia at 7:44 PM on October 27, 2008
man, you are overthinking this a bit. if someone is attracted to you, good; if not, then he's not and it's his loss. you can't change what people are attracted to and you can't change who you are, only how you react to particular situations—in this case, chalk it up to experience and move on. there are a zillion other fish in the sea. gay men (and straight men and women and lesbians and bisexuals) reject potential partners for all kinds of stupid and not so stupid reasons. it happens. it sucks.
also, honestly, the big concern i have i have is figuring out if a dude finds me attractive because i'm smart, hot and funny or because he has a creepy asian fetish, and i find this to be the case with both my other asian straight girl friends and asian gay friends. realizing someone wants to date you mainly because of their weird ideas of what someone of your ethnicity should be like instead of what you yourself are actually like is gross, and has happened to me more times than i can even begin to remember.
posted by lia at 7:44 PM on October 27, 2008
You are right that many people (m/f, g/s) prefer to date within their own ethnic group. However, others are really attracted to someone who seems "exotic" while others are simply indifferent to ethnicity. You have no way to predict which group Mr. B will be in - don't judge him based on your assumptions about why other men turned you down. In fact, you already have a clue that he thinks you have potential as friend, if not as a date, since he invited you to his party. An invitation from to a cup of coffee is a very small investment to see what happens next.
I know it is hard keep getting shot down. One way to look at it, is that if your chances of finding "Mr. Right" or even "Mr Interesting" are, say 1 in 50 (to pick a totally random number) then you need to play the odds - keep asking different guys out and sooner or later the odds will work in your favor and you will find someone that has potential. If it doesn't work with Mr. B, tell yourself "only 49 tries to go" (Yes, I know the statistics don't really work this way but this logic kept me going through the rejection of a difficult job search.)
Since neither you nor Mr. B are in a romantic or sexual relationship at the moment and neither of you have had a long term relationship with him, I think you completely in the clear. So, sorry, you can't use that as an excuse not to take the next step.
posted by metahawk at 7:44 PM on October 27, 2008
I know it is hard keep getting shot down. One way to look at it, is that if your chances of finding "Mr. Right" or even "Mr Interesting" are, say 1 in 50 (to pick a totally random number) then you need to play the odds - keep asking different guys out and sooner or later the odds will work in your favor and you will find someone that has potential. If it doesn't work with Mr. B, tell yourself "only 49 tries to go" (Yes, I know the statistics don't really work this way but this logic kept me going through the rejection of a difficult job search.)
Since neither you nor Mr. B are in a romantic or sexual relationship at the moment and neither of you have had a long term relationship with him, I think you completely in the clear. So, sorry, you can't use that as an excuse not to take the next step.
posted by metahawk at 7:44 PM on October 27, 2008
First, if Mr. A is seeing other people, I don't think there is anything wrong with your seeing other people too. I guess you're concerned because Mr. B dated Mr. A in the past, but I don't see how Mr. A has any sort of claim to either of you, so go for it.
For the ethnicity discussion... People also reject and fetishize others based on their hair color, eye color, height, weight, degree of musculature, size of genitalia, fashion sense, and general attractiveness, for better or worse. If aesthetics are an acceptable basis for deciding whom we date, I don't see how race can be left out of it. Different races look different, and it's not necessarily racist if someone doesn't find the characteristics of a specific race aesthetically attractive. Of course, it's sometimes racism, but I would give people the benefit of the doubt.
Also, for people looking for long term relationships, they might want to date someone who shares their culture. I don't see anything wrong with that. Or they may need to date someone whom their parents will find acceptable. I know it sounds silly, but some gay minorities have parents who have come to terms with their dating the same sex, but would throw a fit if they dated outside their race or religion.
As for Mr. B, from the sounds of it he's interested in you and I think it's strange that you figure he'll suddenly notice you're South Asian and lose interest. He knows what ethnicity you are and still wants to go out with you, so what's the problem? If anything, it's possible he has a thing specifically for Asian guys, so you might be acceptedsolely on that basis. Either way, you can only find that out by seeing more of him.
Good luck!
posted by Nattie at 7:48 PM on October 27, 2008
For the ethnicity discussion... People also reject and fetishize others based on their hair color, eye color, height, weight, degree of musculature, size of genitalia, fashion sense, and general attractiveness, for better or worse. If aesthetics are an acceptable basis for deciding whom we date, I don't see how race can be left out of it. Different races look different, and it's not necessarily racist if someone doesn't find the characteristics of a specific race aesthetically attractive. Of course, it's sometimes racism, but I would give people the benefit of the doubt.
Also, for people looking for long term relationships, they might want to date someone who shares their culture. I don't see anything wrong with that. Or they may need to date someone whom their parents will find acceptable. I know it sounds silly, but some gay minorities have parents who have come to terms with their dating the same sex, but would throw a fit if they dated outside their race or religion.
As for Mr. B, from the sounds of it he's interested in you and I think it's strange that you figure he'll suddenly notice you're South Asian and lose interest. He knows what ethnicity you are and still wants to go out with you, so what's the problem? If anything, it's possible he has a thing specifically for Asian guys, so you might be acceptedsolely on that basis. Either way, you can only find that out by seeing more of him.
Good luck!
posted by Nattie at 7:48 PM on October 27, 2008
I responded saying that I think it's best we go forward only as friends because, the way things stand, I'm not the focus of his attention. I'm not really interested in a friends-with-benefit deal.
That you say this indicates that you want a committed relationship, and A doesn't.
I think that's your answer: it seems to me that your qualms about B, both ethical and ethnic, come from your disappointment over A, and your preference for a committed relationship. I suspect you're dubious about starting anything with B because you feel that A would be slighted, which would be fair enough if you and A were in a committed relationship; but you aren't.
To put it another way, you wanted to commit to A, and although A preferred otherwise, you haven't let go of wanting to commit to him; so anything you start with B, feels to you like being unfaithful to A.
It's not (much of) A's business. You're doing nothing whatsoever wrong, indeed quite the opposite: you're moving on from A. If A is a good person, and cares about you, he would want you to be happy. Clearly A wasn't willing or able to give you that happiness. B might. There's only one way to find out.
You should most definitely ask B out for coffee. Don't assume he's racially prejudiced (or even that he has strong aesthetic preferences for or against your race or his own, which isn't the same thing) - that's a very unfair thing to assume about a person, and you're only jumping to that idea, IMO, because of your unresolved desires for A. Go find out for sure.
If the two of you are happy together that's great. It's only A's business (and this is why I said "much of" above) if it leads to unpleasant drama between his friends, and he can write his own AskMeFi about you two if that happens. I'd say A--as your friend--has an obligation to honestly tell you, if you asked, if getting together with B is a good, bad, or horrible idea; and if it's not a horrible idea, to help you out. If it's a horrible idea (and if A dated B, broke up, and they stayed friends, it's very unlikely, but it's not impossible) he should warn you, but that's it - it's up to you and B. The reasons B and A didn't work out, don't necessarily have any bearing on whether B and you will work out.
(Caveat: I'm not gay, but I think your question's a "feeling guilty about attraction to the friend" thing, not a gay thing. :) That can happen to us all. If you wanted more specific advice about your local gay culture, it'd help to put your city location in your profile.)
posted by aeschenkarnos at 7:51 PM on October 27, 2008
That you say this indicates that you want a committed relationship, and A doesn't.
I think that's your answer: it seems to me that your qualms about B, both ethical and ethnic, come from your disappointment over A, and your preference for a committed relationship. I suspect you're dubious about starting anything with B because you feel that A would be slighted, which would be fair enough if you and A were in a committed relationship; but you aren't.
To put it another way, you wanted to commit to A, and although A preferred otherwise, you haven't let go of wanting to commit to him; so anything you start with B, feels to you like being unfaithful to A.
It's not (much of) A's business. You're doing nothing whatsoever wrong, indeed quite the opposite: you're moving on from A. If A is a good person, and cares about you, he would want you to be happy. Clearly A wasn't willing or able to give you that happiness. B might. There's only one way to find out.
You should most definitely ask B out for coffee. Don't assume he's racially prejudiced (or even that he has strong aesthetic preferences for or against your race or his own, which isn't the same thing) - that's a very unfair thing to assume about a person, and you're only jumping to that idea, IMO, because of your unresolved desires for A. Go find out for sure.
If the two of you are happy together that's great. It's only A's business (and this is why I said "much of" above) if it leads to unpleasant drama between his friends, and he can write his own AskMeFi about you two if that happens. I'd say A--as your friend--has an obligation to honestly tell you, if you asked, if getting together with B is a good, bad, or horrible idea; and if it's not a horrible idea, to help you out. If it's a horrible idea (and if A dated B, broke up, and they stayed friends, it's very unlikely, but it's not impossible) he should warn you, but that's it - it's up to you and B. The reasons B and A didn't work out, don't necessarily have any bearing on whether B and you will work out.
(Caveat: I'm not gay, but I think your question's a "feeling guilty about attraction to the friend" thing, not a gay thing. :) That can happen to us all. If you wanted more specific advice about your local gay culture, it'd help to put your city location in your profile.)
posted by aeschenkarnos at 7:51 PM on October 27, 2008
Nattie If aesthetics are an acceptable basis for deciding whom we date, I don't see how race can be left out of it. Different races look different, and it's not necessarily racist if someone doesn't find the characteristics of a specific race aesthetically attractive. Of course, it's sometimes racism, but I would give people the benefit of the doubt.
Well put and absolutely right, IMO.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 7:52 PM on October 27, 2008
Well put and absolutely right, IMO.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 7:52 PM on October 27, 2008
Straight here but grew up in Chelsea and Provincetown and in my wide social experience of gay men they are much less hung up on racial categories than straight men - and also much more accustomed to their friends and exes dating each other since, y'know, they all can. I'd say go for it.
posted by nicwolff at 8:01 PM on October 27, 2008
posted by nicwolff at 8:01 PM on October 27, 2008
Wow, some pretty amazing insights and advice here. Probably the best I've encountered so far! It was probably a mistake the pose the question of ethnicity alongside the love triangle dilemma. I suspect Mr. B doesn't have anything against my ethnicity (based on the fact that he kissed me on the cheek when he left Mr. A's house party and mentioned something casually in a conversation with me and a few other people that when he recently went to India, where I'm from, he saw many hot guys :) Again, not a clear sign of romantic interest, but definitely friendly. I just thought I'd throw the topic out there to see what people think.
It seems like everyone is in agreement that there is nothing unethical in my plan to ask Mr. B out for coffee. We'll see what happens. Thanks again!
posted by cscott at 8:09 PM on October 27, 2008
It seems like everyone is in agreement that there is nothing unethical in my plan to ask Mr. B out for coffee. We'll see what happens. Thanks again!
posted by cscott at 8:09 PM on October 27, 2008
I think you should check out "The Ethical Slut" This is an amazing book that covers 99% of your questions.
"The Ethical Slut discusses how to live an active life with multiple concurrent sexual relationships in a fair and honest way. Discussion topics include how to deal with the practical difficulties and opportunities in finding and keeping partners, maintaining relationships with others, and strategies for personal growth"
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I hope this is helpful to you. Good Luck
posted by SheMulp AKA Plus 1 at 8:47 PM on October 27, 2008
"The Ethical Slut discusses how to live an active life with multiple concurrent sexual relationships in a fair and honest way. Discussion topics include how to deal with the practical difficulties and opportunities in finding and keeping partners, maintaining relationships with others, and strategies for personal growth"
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I hope this is helpful to you. Good Luck
posted by SheMulp AKA Plus 1 at 8:47 PM on October 27, 2008
Straight here but grew up in Chelsea and Provincetown and in my wide social experience of gay men they are much less hung up on racial categories than straight men - and also much more accustomed to their friends and exes dating each other since, y'know, they all can. I'd say go for it.
No and yes.
The no: I don't want to say racism is endemic in the U.S. gay community, but I do know a lot of guys who will flat-out state "I don't date [X background]" and I (a white guy) have been labeled (somewhat jokingly, but still) a fetishist by my friends since I dated a few Indian guys in a row. So I can understand the nervousness about that rejection. It's unfair, but it happens, and you're better off not pursuing someone dismissive. This guy (Mr. B), however, sounds like he likes you. Go for it.
The yes: Dude, it happens. Last year, I (guy #1) found out that a friend of mine (#2) was dating my ex (#3), and after they broke up another ex/now-friend (#4) asked me to hook him up with #2. We're all on good terms. (And within this love quadrangle, there were a white Christian, a white Jew, an Indian, and an East Asian...so clearly, sometimes race/religion isn't a barrier).
posted by kittyprecious at 7:55 AM on October 28, 2008
No and yes.
The no: I don't want to say racism is endemic in the U.S. gay community, but I do know a lot of guys who will flat-out state "I don't date [X background]" and I (a white guy) have been labeled (somewhat jokingly, but still) a fetishist by my friends since I dated a few Indian guys in a row. So I can understand the nervousness about that rejection. It's unfair, but it happens, and you're better off not pursuing someone dismissive. This guy (Mr. B), however, sounds like he likes you. Go for it.
The yes: Dude, it happens. Last year, I (guy #1) found out that a friend of mine (#2) was dating my ex (#3), and after they broke up another ex/now-friend (#4) asked me to hook him up with #2. We're all on good terms. (And within this love quadrangle, there were a white Christian, a white Jew, an Indian, and an East Asian...so clearly, sometimes race/religion isn't a barrier).
posted by kittyprecious at 7:55 AM on October 28, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
This is not any of Mr A's business.
You can't know anything about whether he's exoticising you.
You have nothing to lose.
Message him, see what happens.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 7:29 PM on October 27, 2008