Is there a situation when its good to give into an aggressive man?

September 1, 2008 7:46 PM

Is there a situation when its good to give into an aggressive man?

I live in a small place in the middle of nowhere with a few dozen other people spread out over miles and miles. My question is not a legal one; it has only to do with how to deal with a situation using both ethics and logic to decide a course of action.

My boyfriend and I have a small financial dispute with someone else in town ("Joseph"). We have basically no previous dealings with him. Joseph thinks we owe him $200 and we think we owe him nothing. We feel his position is unreasonable (and unsupported by the law). Nonetheless, we left him a check for $100 thinking it is a small town and to compromise is better than to make a fuss over an amount that, although significant, was within our means.

When Joseph got the check, he came and found me in a semi-remote location. It was broad daylight and outside, and no one was nearby. He made me take the check back, and became slightly aggressive. I told him I was feeling threatened and ask him not to stand so close. I was backed up to my car. He came closer and said, "Oh, you feel threatened? Well back up then." I edged around the car to get him out of my space.

He said a bunch of things about the merit of his position, then backed up. I didn't want to engage him while he was acting like this, but thought well it's not fair for me never to tell him my position either. I did so, and he was quiet and listened to my position. He said at the end that was fine and it doesn't change his bill, and that he's billed me.

He started repeating the phrase, "There are consequences to your actions, every action you take has consequences." I asked him what kind of consequences, does he mean litigation, and he just repeated himself or not answer or say something else. I tried to remain really calm throughout the occasion, not really engaging him emotionally.

Then, an older man that lives sort of around sometimes was driving by and my aggressor flagged him down. He then started telling this guy the whole story, emphatically and righteously, but still, I thought, aggressively. I didn't argue because I didn't feel it was fair to put this random guy in the middle; he looked like he just wanted to get away. He diplomatically said, "Well that's a relatively small amount of money. Sounds like something you all should work out," and sped off.

My aggressor gave a deadline of Friday to come up with a check for $200, "or there will be consequences." He said this several times very emphatically, and pointed at me menacingly.

A while ago, I started dating an abuser. Seeing the signs, I got out of that deal within weeks, but not without substantial fiasco and a set of slashed tires. Joseph going off like he was today, so many of the characteristics and mannerisms reminded me of that guy, and it kind of freaked me out.

I have identified several potential next actions:

1) Pay him the $200. My concern about this is I am directly rewarding very poor behavior, and is he going to think that I will pay him anything he wants whenever he demands?

2) File a police report. To be honest, unless I am going to pay him, there's no way I can't do this. I will be a sitting duck awaiting his "consequences." Please keep in mind that there are no cops for four hours, so I can't expect them to do any to prevent violent consequences, but at least there would be a record. His consequences may be nonviolent, like litigation, but the nearest court is also four hours away and seems a bit stupid to go so far over $100. I think he was intentionally ambiguous as to whether he might be violent.

3) Do both. I kind of like this if I can file a report anonymously, but I don't know about that. I think of his wife and if he could get so aggressive with me there, then I'm sure she gets it too. Once a man assaulted me (I fought him off), and I always always regretted not filing a report. Because if some other woman wasn't able to fight him off, at least there would be a record of his history.

I would not mind compromising certain ethical concerns and doing only #1 if I thought that it would actually make me safer, but I just don't know.


I would very much appreciate thoughtful suggestions, especially from people who have some experience or education with the abusive mind and remote living.

posted by anonymous to society & culture (34 comments total)

The only thing you should give this guy is a restraining order and if necessary a bullet to center mass. This is not how polite civil society operates. And appeasement doesn't work - what makes you think he won't just demand more money? If you're in a rural area, the odds are buying and licensing a firearm are relatively straightforward. Exercise your rights. A threat justifying using force to defend yourself need not be unambiguous, legally or ethically.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 7:52 PM on September 1, 2008

Never appease a bully. On the other hand, don't run around shooting people who intimidate you, either.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 7:55 PM on September 1, 2008

My aggressor gave a deadline of Friday to come up with a check for $200, "or there will be consequences." He said this several times very emphatically, and pointed at me menacingly.

This is enough to initiate a conversation with the police about this. File a report and see what they recommend. They might go have a talk with him and calm him down (or that might just make him angrier). If you think this guy is a real whacko, it may just be worth paying him $200 and never dealing with him again, but only do this if you really think he would hurt you. Otherwise you're just rewarding bad behaviour.
posted by Dasein at 8:01 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

I had a neighbor in rural VT who was somewhat like the man you describe and we have gotten into very similar arguments where I felt totally menaced. He is a large, loud guy who has a sort of yelling voice. That said, I knew a little bit more about the guy and knew that he was exclusively menacing when he had been drinking and that he had never, in his life, injured someone who was not in some way physically interfering with him. Not super comforting but the main takeaway for me was that he was not a rapist and was not an abuser of women he was just a big scary man with possibly a low IQ and a drinking problem.

I stopped having any communication with him the night he called my house late and threatened to come over -- our dispute wasn't over money but it sounds eerily similar to your own in the way it was handled -- and I called the police. The 35 minutes I spent on the phone with the 9/11 dispatcher alone in a house with all the lights off and the doors locked was quite possibly the longest half hour of my life. I contemplated getting a gun but decided not to. I slept with a machete by my pillow. From then on I wouldn't talk to him on the phone and made my boyfriend deal with him exclusively when my boyfriend was visiting.

Fast forward a few years. He has quit drinking, he's in AA, he calls me to apologize and we work out a decent arrangement. I have moved away from my house, partly because I don't care to live someplace that far from everyone with a scary neighbor, and I am hiring him to do some work on it. Every so often there is a disagreement and he starts in with the yelling again. I am less bothered by it now because I feel that I have a pretty good idea of what he's capable of and a pretty good idea that his scary demeanor is pushing my buttons in a way that is part me and part him. I read The Gift of Fear.

So, my advice to you is the following.

1. get your boyfriend involved and refuse to deal with him in person anymore. If you see him coming, be polite but get in your car and GO. I'm not saying that because oh your boyfriend is a dude, just because I've found that for really aggressive types of men, I've found that it's sometimes better to let them interact with other men.
2. This line "I didn't want to engage him while he was acting like this, but thought well it's not fair for me never to tell him my position either." is sort of where I shake my head. This isn't about fairness, it's about your safety. You basically tell him you'll talk to him when you and your boyfriend are together, preferably with a third party present.
3. Whatever the money is about, if it were me, I'd pay it once, make it clear that there will be no more bizarro payment without invoices in the future (you didn't tell us what this was all for and I think that matters, honestly). That has worked with me for the most part, a discussion with other people around and a very clear outlining of future expectations in case that was unclear before.
4. the fact that he flagged down the neighbor indicates to me that he's unlikely plotting some sort of creepy criminal behavior unless he's really not that bright. Is there a possibility he's just a really broke guy who is angry because $200 is a lot of money to him? I have no idea if that is possibly the case, but I'd at least suggest considering that.
5. I don't know how I feel about the cops. Filing a report seems appropriate at yet my rural experience is that this sort of thing is more likely to make him pissed off and not really make you any safer. I'd tread carefully.

I am sorry in any case, this is no fun at all. If you have a counseling option available to you, I would consider that as well.
posted by jessamyn at 8:03 PM on September 1, 2008 [7 favorites]

There are situations where it's good to give in to an aggressive man.

This isn't one of them. This is the kind of situation where you start documenting every encounter you have with this clown. Doesn't need to be a formal police report (though that wouldn't hurt). Just a notebook, with date, time, location, and description of encounter. Write down as much as you can remember, as soon as possible after each encounter.

I can't see you getting stomped for $200. For $200, I think what you'll get is petty harassment. Mr. Aggressive is going to seek to cost you the $200 he thinks you owe him in some other way. Keep documenting each episode of that, too, until it blows over. If it starts to take an irritating about of time to blow over, or cost an irritating amount of time or money to attend to, take copies of all your documentation to the police.
posted by flabdablet at 8:04 PM on September 1, 2008

Get the authorities involved, if only to have a record of the incident. Then arm yourself. If you're truly four hours away from any kind of law enforcement, then for all practical purposes you are responsible for your own protection. I am stridently pro-gun-control, but I don't believe individual gun ownership should be illegal, and yours is a perfect example of when it makes sense. Get a gun and learn how to use it.
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 8:09 PM on September 1, 2008

Time to move. Closer to civilization. I wouldn't consider that running away, either.
posted by softsantear at 8:19 PM on September 1, 2008

Sounds like a bluff. Chances are very good he'll do nothing. What's trying to do to you is extortion. Don't pay him.
posted by luckypozzo at 8:25 PM on September 1, 2008

Boy, this sucks.

1. As to involving the police, I doubt that's a complete solution, esp. in your neck of the woods. You will have to assess how favorably they are likely to look upon your position, and whether he has any in with them. I wouldn't count on anonymity at all.

2. I wasn't there, and I am not a woman. But my sense from what you said is that he didn't start out trying to physically intimidate you or threaten violence, but didn't mind that you took it that way, and because of that (or because he had nothing particular in mind) refused to articulate what he meant by "consequences." (See, for example, listening quietly, letting you pull away (and I assume not following you further), flagging down someone else, maybe being flummoxed by litigation.) I am not defending this guy, and it was cruel of him to exploit the situation, but I wouldn't leap to concerns about him doing violence. I can certainly understand being risk averse.

3. It is really hard to say much without understanding the dispute. But I would be tempted to let your BF deal with him, or to call him and tell him that you are willing to talk with him about a settlement, but only if he cuts all the BS about "consequences" and his threatening behavior. That is, tell him you will be fair with him if he chills a little, but that you absolutely won't pay him $200 unless he does (if that's true). That way, if you end up paying, you have planted doubt in his mind that his technique was successful . . . even if, in some sense, it was.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 8:31 PM on September 1, 2008

Call the police.

Is there someone who could review the situation and act as arbitrator about the money? you'd feel that you'd taken the necessary steps to be fair.
posted by theora55 at 8:40 PM on September 1, 2008

Ditto on documenting everything. If you have a small camcorder or cellphone w/ video capabilities, whip it out at the first sign of this thug. Also consider a small voice-activated recorder to turn on when he approaches.
posted by davidmsc at 8:58 PM on September 1, 2008

I can't see you getting stomped for $200. For $200, I think what you'll get is petty harassment.

Stompings aren't usually the result of careful cost-benefit analysis. If this guy feels wronged or thinks you're disrespecting him, he may do something really unpleasant. Call the police, get a restraining order.
posted by electroboy at 9:00 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

To everyone saying "call the police," reflect on the fact that the clearest support is (a) confrontation in a remote location (perhaps one of many in those parts), (b) threatening proximity, apparently not pursued once objected to, followed by quieter discussion, (c) finger pointing and threats of "consequences." By this or a similar standard, half the people who tow cars (or have had their cars towed) should be arrested, and God save people taking a deposition or running a collection agency.

I am not defending the guy, or attacking the poster's reaction. I am skeptical that this will sound compelling to the police, and in my experience, involving the police in matters where they wind up doing nothing can backfire.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 9:04 PM on September 1, 2008

In The Gift of Fear, Gavin de Becker argues that restraining orders offer little protection and have the potential to futher the anger of the upset aggressor. Something to think about.
posted by reishus at 9:06 PM on September 1, 2008

By leaving that $100 check for him, you have encouraged him to believe that he's correct. After all, why would you give him anything if he wasn't? It also leads me to think that while he may not be legally correct, you have some feeling that he might be morally correct.

Since you don't give any of the details of the situation, I'm left thinking that you may be in the wrong here. You might not think so, but that doesn't mean you're not. Third party arbitration by someone you agree to be fair might be the best way to handle this. If the third party says that you're to pay him, then do it.

Bullying is awful, but so is screwing people out of their money. People get mad when they get screwed. This doesn't justify threatening you with "consequences," but it might justify him in being unhappy with you.
posted by paperzach at 10:03 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

I agree with what paperzach says, without knowing the details, arbitration is the way to go, but I would add that I think you should contact the police also. If you felt in danger for your self when dealing with him than that sounds like legitimate grounds for the police (I'm not a lawyer). Also, if he acts like that with people then there's probably a chance that he will have a background which the police will be familiar with - again, something that works in your favor.
Best case scenario - in the future, trust your gut and don't deal with people you have a bad feeling about.
posted by Horatius at 10:44 PM on September 1, 2008

Is there a situation when its good to give into an aggressive man?
Sure, when he's right.
Otherwise, don't back down and don't give in, and get help if you need it.
posted by niles at 11:24 PM on September 1, 2008

God, I hate living in the country! There just seem to be so many fucked up, barely civilized assholes like this guy populating every hill and dale (yes, I was raised in the country). My advice is not satisfying, but it should solve the issue. Write him a check for $200, and have your boyfriend call him to meet in a public place to get it. When he shows up, have your BF give him the check and have him tell him that he got his damn money and if he ever shows his face around your place you will have his ass hauled away. Then, go talk to the cops about your options. This guy is not safe to be around, and you should be sure to never speak to him again. If he comes up to you - go to a safe place or leave. Guys like this are dangerous. Seriously.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 12:36 AM on September 2, 2008

Pay him the $200 and go out of your way to never deal with him again. Then get on with your life.
posted by dydecker at 12:41 AM on September 2, 2008

2nding Jess-- where the hell is your boyfriend in all this?
posted by Rykey at 4:09 AM on September 2, 2008

When two parties disagree over an issue such as this, there is a time-honored and efficient way of settling it: mediation.

Tell Joe (as you already have, apparently) that you respectfully disagree with his position, but that there's no way you two are going to come to an understanding by yourselves. Tell him you'd like to choose a neutral third party whom you both respect, and let that person mediate the dispute. (Whether you realize it or not, Joe has already tried this, by accosting the poor passer-by and pleading his case; he was hoping the stranger would see it his way and give his position the added weight of a second opinion).

At any rate, the offer of mediation is win-win for you. If he accepts, the worst that can happen is that the mediator comes down on Joe's side and you pay up, which is something you're considering anyway, and you haven't given in to intimidation, but insisted on a reasoned approach. If the mediator comes down on your side, or validates your attempt at the $100 compromise, so much the better.

If Joe rejects the offer of mediation, you've gained the moral high ground as the one who attempted a rational settlement.
posted by dinger at 4:41 AM on September 2, 2008

Upon further preview, I bow to theora55 and the suggestion of an arbitrator. (Sorry, searched for "mediator" but not "arbitrator").
posted by dinger at 5:05 AM on September 2, 2008

AT least talk to the police.

I am worried about your physical safety.
posted by konolia at 5:38 AM on September 2, 2008

It's quite possible the local police have dealt with this guy before if he is a professional
ass. Contact them and they might at least offer advice on how to handle him.
posted by jimbotex at 5:57 AM on September 2, 2008

How this turns out could have a lot to do with how the other people in your community feel about it. It's kind of a reality of small towns that you have to at least publicly get along with everyone, or it gets pretty messy.

The stereotype is that small town people will automatically side with this guy because he's the old-timer while you're new in town, and there is an element of that, to be sure. But they might also side with you, if you're as in the right as you think you are (are you? are you sure? have you asked other people who aren't your boyfriend?) and kind of use social pressure to make the guy back off.

Do you have any particular people in town you're closer to? Someone you can consult about this guy's history (has he been violent or does he just have a big mouth?), and ask advice on how to go forward? A lot is dependent on the personalities of the people involved, and that's something we're hard-pressed to judge just from what's here. Someone with a better sense of both you and him would be the right person to ask, and by doing so, you'd also set the wheels in motion for the social pressure I mentioned above if the town is inclined to side with you.

But pay him now, pay him later or pay him never, this person is never going to be your friend, even if this seems resolved and he plays nice in the future. Small town friendliness is a surface display. Do your best not to do anything in the future that involves you financially or closely with him, his family, or anyone who appears to be amongst his closest friends, while otherwise 'playing nice' yourself.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:57 AM on September 2, 2008

I kind of agree with this whole arbitration idea, but . . .

Paperzach said, By leaving that $100 check for him, you have encouraged him to believe that he's correct. After all, why would you give him anything if he wasn't? It also leads me to think that while he may not be legally correct, you have some feeling that he might be morally correct.

I don't think that's necessarily true, and in any event, agreeing to arbitrate -- as opposed to stiffing him altogether -- does the same thing. Showing a willingness to compromise always poses the potential that it may stiffen the other party's resolve, but that can be managed.

Horatius said, I agree with what paperzach says, without knowing the details, arbitration is the way to go, but I would add that I think you should contact the police also.

This may undermine the whole arbitration initiative. Calling the police on someone, if he gets wind of it, tends to get his back up -- and while it might convince him the OP is not to be trifled with, it might also mean he'll never agree to a potential compromise.

jimbotex said, It's quite possible the local police have dealt with this guy before if he is a professional ass. Contact them and they might at least offer advice on how to handle him.

Perhaps I am too skeptical of our men and women in blue, but I think going to them without a clear objective, and a plausible case for obtaining it, carries risks as well as benefits. Plus which, they are not the Better Business Bureau.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 8:07 AM on September 2, 2008

Talk to people in the community, get the guys history, and get the word out. Talk to the cops. If he is a hot headed bluff, then f*ck him. Tell him you already compromised by giving him $100. If he wants more, then you can get a mediator. But if he has a history of violence or harrassment, throw money at the problem, pay him the other $100, and be done with it. In my opinion, because of your remote location, getting the law involved isn't going to do sh*t. Let's say him acts up and at least, slaps you or pushes you to the ground. It is going to hurt you a lot more emotionally that it will hurt him to get a small misdemeanor charge. It is not right to pay the guy if your in the right, but sometimes doing the right thing is not the right thing to do.
posted by kaizen at 8:50 AM on September 2, 2008

jessamyn's comment is worth reading several times and taking to heart.

Is there a situation when its good to give into an aggressive man?

Short answer: yes. If he's threatening you, if he's in a position to do you harm, if you're in a situation where he's become belligerent and violent, give in: give him whatever money he's demanding, hand him a check if you have to, and get away as fast as you can. If he induces you to give him money by threatening violence, well, there's a word for that: theft. He's not the one you want to tell your side of the story to; go somewhere safe, with people who can keep him from doing violence and judge fairly, and deal with him and the money there.

Safety first.
posted by koeselitz at 9:21 AM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

jessamyn's comment is worth reading several times and taking to heart.

Except that part about the machete. If you're going to defend yourself with a weapon, you should do it properly.
posted by electroboy at 10:36 AM on September 2, 2008

Since this is anonymous why didn't you tell us why he thinks you owe him $200? You dance around the issue so delicately that I am sure there are two sides to the story. Did you avoid it because you think there's a chance he's right? Can you follow up? Niles is right.
posted by fritley at 10:55 AM on September 2, 2008

Maybe "There are consequences to your actions, every action you take has consequences." means that he's pissed, he feels like the *must* be consequences, but he has no idea what they would be.

My first instinct was to say, "Pay him the $200. Then stay as far away from him as you can. Not because he is necessarily going to physically hurt you, but at the very least because he's a pain to deal with and you don't need that."

I've thought it through and come up with counter-arguments but I keep coming back to my first thoughts. The safest and best thing to me seems like eliminate the conflict (just pay him) and then he has no reason to be a jerk to you. If it's some kind of neighbor dispute (your cow broke my fence! you owe me $200!) then find a way to keep this from coming up again. If he thinks you owe him for a good or service, then don't get goods or services from him anymore.
posted by KAS at 11:09 AM on September 2, 2008

PAY HIM OFF, let him "get away with it." Four hours away cops won't help you if this fucker decides to make sure you know the "consequences." This is the uber-example of why you should give in, pay the money, then avoid him. If he STILL doesn't shut up and go away after giving him the money, then that's time to move.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:09 PM on September 2, 2008

I'm from a rural area and the first thing I would do is ask around about the guy. Everyone will know him and will tell you his history and if they won't the lady at the post office will for sure. If this goes to arbitration she'll probably do it anyway. If the consensus is that he's an idiot and always getting into these kinds of situations then f'k him. If you hired him to do some work and he did a bad job then f'k him too. Next time he comes around, don't talk to him. He will bad mouth you all over a 4 county area though so be prepared.

Now if he's a pet poisoning lunatic (poisoning pets is the time honored way for psychos to "get even" in most country parts btw, so keep yours in until you sort this out) your options are somewhat different. You have been delicate about the nature of your transaction but if it's something that you are not afraid to discuss in front of God and the county permitting office then go ahead and call the Sheriff and sic him on this guy. Or your bf. Either way he needs to be told to back off in no uncertain terms. This is a good time to go back to the initial offer of $100 so he can save face. Then avoid him forever, but buy a shotgun just in case. If he's a psycho AND you would prefer to keep the nature of your business dealings private you are going to have to pay him the $200. Chalk that one up to experience.
posted by fshgrl at 6:35 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

We have basically no previous dealings with him

He said at the end that was fine and it doesn't change his bill, and that he's billed me.

It´s not clear from your question if he has provided you with a physical paper bill or if he has ¨billed you¨ via the interaction you described. Was your first encounter with this man him approaching and saying that you owe him $200 ? That would be very strange behavior, and one might rightly worry about it happening in the future. Or perhaps he feels that he is owed $200 for something specific. Either pay him, or find someone in your local community that he respects to mediate the dispute.

If he wants $200 because you caused him some sort of financial loss or he helped you with something you thought he was doing for free, and you feel that you will be free of these concerns and have him out of your life for $200, just go ahead and pay him, and be done with the situation.

You live 4 hours away from the police, and probably 4 hours away from the fire department and ambulance too. I wouldn´t live in an an area like that without the knowledge, equipment, and determination to do at least some of my own firefighting (if it becomes necessary), basic emergency medical care (if it becomes necessary), and basic self-protection (if it becomes necessary). I´m not saying you should shoot the guy because he´s yelling at you, but know what constitutes a situation in which you have the necessity and the legal right to defend yourself with lethal force, the means to do so, and the determination to do so.
posted by yohko at 10:43 AM on September 3, 2008