What do I say if/when she goes back to the man who might kill her?
November 9, 2009 6:09 PM Subscribe
My friend's on-again/off-again nonstop crazy drama relationship just turned physically abusive six days ago. Now they are separated, again, and hopefully for good. I have reason to believe that the separation won't last, and I don't know how I could or should deal with that. Please help.
My 21 year friend old has been dating a man named Charles for the past two years. we actually met through Charles- I was his math tutor and next door neighbor (not anymore, we live in different cities now), after he started dating her we met and clicked, becoming fast friends. She was a bridesmaid at my wedding and I love her!
Her relationship with Charles degenerated to a less than ideal state shortly after knowing each other. Charles is an alcoholic, emotionally abusive, mildly sociopathic, violent, rich kid ne'er-do-well, with a napolean complex. She has had problems of her own, but she means well and has a heart of gold. She would never hurt a soul, but she is not very talented at standing up for herself by any stretch of the imagination.
Their relationship has always been the breakup (with screaming fights) and makeup (with wine and roses) twice a month kind. I never minded hearing the seemingly cyclical tales of what was new with her and Charles every time we saw eachother. I am now 26 and happily married to my adorable devoted husband in the healthiest relationship I could ever conceive of, but when I was her age (21) I was involved in a similar situation a drama filled on/off relationship.
I understand very much the addictive qualities of that type of cyclic relationship. It's being in a world of your own with one other person, routinely feeling suicidal and happy passion beyond words in the course of a single day.
Recently, her and Charles took a turn for the very very worst. A drunken altercation led to him punching her in the back, trapping her in his apartment to pin her on the bed and scream at her, pulling her hair to not let her escape, and chasing her into the street in his boxers when she escaped and ran to her car and drove home.
I am grateful she is alive. She says she is done with him and her mother is getting her into therapy. But I am very concerned that this is not the end of her and him. Subtle signs when we talked about the incident lead me to believe that she is keeping the door in her mind open. These are:
1. She will not file a police report against him, despite the pleas of myself and her mother, which may be reasonable considering he comes from a very wealthy family that would probably try to file all sorts of defamation/libel lawsuits against her and make her life hell.
2. She said she was done with him forever, and in the same conversation said that she told him she would speak to him in several months after he received treatment.
Charles has already started in with the denials/apologies/baby I would never hurt yous.
Anyway, my question: what do I do if she goes back to him? what do I say, how do I react? I don't want to and won't cut her out of my life, but I'm not sure how to handle it if she tells me she is in contact with Charles again in any capacity. I've told her if she sees him again after this, I consider it likely she will end up raped and/or in a body bag. So what do I do if she does see him again, which I'm afraid to admit is a very strong possibility?
Also, I've read the gift of fear, but any other books that might help me I'd be happy to know about.
My 21 year friend old has been dating a man named Charles for the past two years. we actually met through Charles- I was his math tutor and next door neighbor (not anymore, we live in different cities now), after he started dating her we met and clicked, becoming fast friends. She was a bridesmaid at my wedding and I love her!
Her relationship with Charles degenerated to a less than ideal state shortly after knowing each other. Charles is an alcoholic, emotionally abusive, mildly sociopathic, violent, rich kid ne'er-do-well, with a napolean complex. She has had problems of her own, but she means well and has a heart of gold. She would never hurt a soul, but she is not very talented at standing up for herself by any stretch of the imagination.
Their relationship has always been the breakup (with screaming fights) and makeup (with wine and roses) twice a month kind. I never minded hearing the seemingly cyclical tales of what was new with her and Charles every time we saw eachother. I am now 26 and happily married to my adorable devoted husband in the healthiest relationship I could ever conceive of, but when I was her age (21) I was involved in a similar situation a drama filled on/off relationship.
I understand very much the addictive qualities of that type of cyclic relationship. It's being in a world of your own with one other person, routinely feeling suicidal and happy passion beyond words in the course of a single day.
Recently, her and Charles took a turn for the very very worst. A drunken altercation led to him punching her in the back, trapping her in his apartment to pin her on the bed and scream at her, pulling her hair to not let her escape, and chasing her into the street in his boxers when she escaped and ran to her car and drove home.
I am grateful she is alive. She says she is done with him and her mother is getting her into therapy. But I am very concerned that this is not the end of her and him. Subtle signs when we talked about the incident lead me to believe that she is keeping the door in her mind open. These are:
1. She will not file a police report against him, despite the pleas of myself and her mother, which may be reasonable considering he comes from a very wealthy family that would probably try to file all sorts of defamation/libel lawsuits against her and make her life hell.
2. She said she was done with him forever, and in the same conversation said that she told him she would speak to him in several months after he received treatment.
Charles has already started in with the denials/apologies/baby I would never hurt yous.
Anyway, my question: what do I do if she goes back to him? what do I say, how do I react? I don't want to and won't cut her out of my life, but I'm not sure how to handle it if she tells me she is in contact with Charles again in any capacity. I've told her if she sees him again after this, I consider it likely she will end up raped and/or in a body bag. So what do I do if she does see him again, which I'm afraid to admit is a very strong possibility?
Also, I've read the gift of fear, but any other books that might help me I'd be happy to know about.
Have her contact a battered woman's shelter. They have counselors who can explain very clearly the cycle of abuse and what the end result can possibly be. She needs to be told in explicit and graphic terms that this ain't getting any better.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 6:24 PM on November 9, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 6:24 PM on November 9, 2009 [1 favorite]
She will not file a police report against him, despite the pleas of myself and her mother, which may be reasonable considering he comes from a very wealthy family that would probably try to file all sorts of defamation/libel lawsuits against her and make her life hell.
No they won't. The prosecutor would grind them into dust if they did that. No plea bargain, and a recommendation for jail time. Usually 2nd degree assault is a 2-year sentence if pressed to the max.
posted by Ironmouth at 6:56 PM on November 9, 2009
No they won't. The prosecutor would grind them into dust if they did that. No plea bargain, and a recommendation for jail time. Usually 2nd degree assault is a 2-year sentence if pressed to the max.
posted by Ironmouth at 6:56 PM on November 9, 2009
The National Domestic Violence Hotline should be able to advise you about how to help your friend. From their web site: "Help is available to callers 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Hotline advocates are available for victims and anyone calling on their behalf to provide crisis intervention, safety planning, information and referrals to agencies in all 50 states, Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands. Assistance is available in English and Spanish with access to more than 170 languages through interpreter services. If you or someone you know is frightened about something in your relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1−800−799−SAFE (7233) or TTY 1−800−787−3224."
posted by Wordwoman at 7:36 PM on November 9, 2009
posted by Wordwoman at 7:36 PM on November 9, 2009
I asked my friend, who is a DA and frequently works with female victims of violence, for her thoughts. She said:
everything the people have said so far is right. though the two years in jail sounds unlikely
at least in my jurisdiction. I think she should absolutely file a report on this. keep her up with the therapy. listen to her. but you don't want to back her into a corner where she just feels powerless about this. the sad truth is that some women continue, even after being offered every resource imaginable, to go back to their abusers. it's fundamentally her choice. and you can't make it for her. support all of her healthy choices. try to make sure she's listening to herself when she's making excuses for this guy. if you actually SEE any physical abuse, you can report it. and they can go forward on your word even if she lies her ass off about it. but at the end of the day, this is her life. and she's free to imperil herself. a much more senior domestic violence prosecutor told this story. that I found utterly stomach-turning. about this woman who worked at a pizza parlor next to the police station. and the police would see her banged up all the time. and they knew exactly what was going on. but she always just said, I don't want to press charges. I fell. I bumped into a door. etc. and without any evidence, they can't go forward. so they just kept coming in to take pictures of her whenever she had a new injury. and they had years worth of these. and people would come in and talk to her, trying to get her help. this prosecutor said to her face, you know he's going to kill you one day. and she said, yes, I know. about a year later, he actually did. anyhow, the point of that absurdly depressing story. people have to save themselves. no one else can do the work.
posted by prefpara at 7:43 PM on November 9, 2009 [2 favorites]
everything the people have said so far is right. though the two years in jail sounds unlikely
at least in my jurisdiction. I think she should absolutely file a report on this. keep her up with the therapy. listen to her. but you don't want to back her into a corner where she just feels powerless about this. the sad truth is that some women continue, even after being offered every resource imaginable, to go back to their abusers. it's fundamentally her choice. and you can't make it for her. support all of her healthy choices. try to make sure she's listening to herself when she's making excuses for this guy. if you actually SEE any physical abuse, you can report it. and they can go forward on your word even if she lies her ass off about it. but at the end of the day, this is her life. and she's free to imperil herself. a much more senior domestic violence prosecutor told this story. that I found utterly stomach-turning. about this woman who worked at a pizza parlor next to the police station. and the police would see her banged up all the time. and they knew exactly what was going on. but she always just said, I don't want to press charges. I fell. I bumped into a door. etc. and without any evidence, they can't go forward. so they just kept coming in to take pictures of her whenever she had a new injury. and they had years worth of these. and people would come in and talk to her, trying to get her help. this prosecutor said to her face, you know he's going to kill you one day. and she said, yes, I know. about a year later, he actually did. anyhow, the point of that absurdly depressing story. people have to save themselves. no one else can do the work.
posted by prefpara at 7:43 PM on November 9, 2009 [2 favorites]
I've been monitoring this question, and I am impressed with every answer.
I particularly like prefpara's effort to obtain a legal perspective.
OP - you've identified a watershed moment in this situation.
YES - many folks go through these drama filled and addictive relationships. BUT. This has gone somewhere beyond where most of us wise-up, walk-away, and then seek therapy.
Your friend... who knows. I think she doesn't recognize how dangerous a game she is playing right now. I think she is willfully ignoring the fact that this will end badly.
Why is she doing that?
A stray thought I had when I first read your question, FWIW -- maybe she is confused by all the attention she receives from being involved in a toxic relationship? I mean you, her mom... folks worry about her when things go wrong, they show her they care by continuing to come to her rescue. That's a pretty powerful pay-off, don't you think?
You're already involved, so maybe you'll have to judge this next suggestion based on the actual situation and not my supposition. Maybe things have gone too far to walk away.... but what if you did? What if you drew a boundary and let her know you will not support her or her continued interaction with someone who tried to physically harm her? What if you stopped providing a pay-off for the drama?
Would she wise-up? Or continue to self-destruct via her abuser?
You would know better than me. But I sometimes wonder in situations like this how much the other party might benefit/learn from hearing a firm "NO."
No more. I won't act like this is interesting. I won't react as though this makes you attractive or compelling. I would find you more appealing if you wised-up. My affection should be valuable to you because I don't hurt you. If you want to keep me, stop using this guy to hurt yourself.
Her mom can not do this, I bet. But you can. Maybe you should lead by example and tell her "NO."
Maybe the greatest gift you can give her as a friend is demonstrating what it means to chose personal well-being and sticking to your choice.
Just an idea.
posted by jbenben at 8:58 PM on November 9, 2009
I particularly like prefpara's effort to obtain a legal perspective.
OP - you've identified a watershed moment in this situation.
YES - many folks go through these drama filled and addictive relationships. BUT. This has gone somewhere beyond where most of us wise-up, walk-away, and then seek therapy.
Your friend... who knows. I think she doesn't recognize how dangerous a game she is playing right now. I think she is willfully ignoring the fact that this will end badly.
Why is she doing that?
A stray thought I had when I first read your question, FWIW -- maybe she is confused by all the attention she receives from being involved in a toxic relationship? I mean you, her mom... folks worry about her when things go wrong, they show her they care by continuing to come to her rescue. That's a pretty powerful pay-off, don't you think?
You're already involved, so maybe you'll have to judge this next suggestion based on the actual situation and not my supposition. Maybe things have gone too far to walk away.... but what if you did? What if you drew a boundary and let her know you will not support her or her continued interaction with someone who tried to physically harm her? What if you stopped providing a pay-off for the drama?
Would she wise-up? Or continue to self-destruct via her abuser?
You would know better than me. But I sometimes wonder in situations like this how much the other party might benefit/learn from hearing a firm "NO."
No more. I won't act like this is interesting. I won't react as though this makes you attractive or compelling. I would find you more appealing if you wised-up. My affection should be valuable to you because I don't hurt you. If you want to keep me, stop using this guy to hurt yourself.
Her mom can not do this, I bet. But you can. Maybe you should lead by example and tell her "NO."
Maybe the greatest gift you can give her as a friend is demonstrating what it means to chose personal well-being and sticking to your choice.
Just an idea.
posted by jbenben at 8:58 PM on November 9, 2009
What do you say? I would focus on your concern: "I am worried about you."
The best source of resources for you is likely the DV hotline. There are other reading resources online that might also be helpful:
- Googling "support friend abusive relationship" gets a number of useful handouts. (They tend to repeat each other, so the ones linked below were unique or different in some way.)
- Here's a PDF I particularly liked from the Safehouse Alliance on supporting friends in abusive relationships
-I like this handout's focus on taking action.
- Another good one-pager.
One of the best books I've found on this subject is Family & Friends Guide to Domestic Violence. On two of the pages that aren't allowed in the preview (p. 65-66), if I remember right, it has some great scripts for talking about your worry and concern. Another good book, but more written for a person in her shoes, is the book Why Does He Do That?
posted by salvia at 9:53 PM on November 9, 2009 [2 favorites]
The best source of resources for you is likely the DV hotline. There are other reading resources online that might also be helpful:
- Googling "support friend abusive relationship" gets a number of useful handouts. (They tend to repeat each other, so the ones linked below were unique or different in some way.)
- Here's a PDF I particularly liked from the Safehouse Alliance on supporting friends in abusive relationships
-I like this handout's focus on taking action.
- Another good one-pager.
One of the best books I've found on this subject is Family & Friends Guide to Domestic Violence. On two of the pages that aren't allowed in the preview (p. 65-66), if I remember right, it has some great scripts for talking about your worry and concern. Another good book, but more written for a person in her shoes, is the book Why Does He Do That?
posted by salvia at 9:53 PM on November 9, 2009 [2 favorites]
I feel your desperation to help your friend. It is a tremendously helpless feeling when you watch someone you love go through an abusive relationship. I've been there. I was an advocate for an abuse organization in Wyoming a few years back. I had over 800 volunteer hours in the course of a few years. I've sheltered hundreds of women and their children. The majority of them went back to their abuser.
The advice I would like to share with you is something that I learned to help change that vicious cycle and it did work with quite a few women. What you could try is to introduce her to people that you know are loving and kind human beings, that they in no way would tolerate any kind of abuse and would support her in all situations.
Once she realizes that there are many wonderful people in the world, hopefully she won't tolerate anymore abuse herself. Sometimes the abused don't realize (or forget) that they have a choice of whom they spend their time and life with. Verbal, Emotional and Physical abuse generates low self-esteem. You and new friends can help build her esteem back up so she can make the right choices for her future. Good Luck, LL
posted by LindaLou21356 at 11:58 PM on November 9, 2009 [2 favorites]
The advice I would like to share with you is something that I learned to help change that vicious cycle and it did work with quite a few women. What you could try is to introduce her to people that you know are loving and kind human beings, that they in no way would tolerate any kind of abuse and would support her in all situations.
Once she realizes that there are many wonderful people in the world, hopefully she won't tolerate anymore abuse herself. Sometimes the abused don't realize (or forget) that they have a choice of whom they spend their time and life with. Verbal, Emotional and Physical abuse generates low self-esteem. You and new friends can help build her esteem back up so she can make the right choices for her future. Good Luck, LL
posted by LindaLou21356 at 11:58 PM on November 9, 2009 [2 favorites]
An attorney who blogs anonymously here in Philly recently wrote what I think is probably the best and most realistic piece about protection from abuse orders I've ever read, I suggest that you at least print this out for yourself if not also for your friend so you have some idea of what awaits her when and if she decides to advocate for herself within the legal system:
PFA Orders Don't Help but Here's How to Get One.
posted by The Straightener at 5:44 AM on November 10, 2009
PFA Orders Don't Help but Here's How to Get One.
posted by The Straightener at 5:44 AM on November 10, 2009
You're already involved, so maybe you'll have to judge this next suggestion based on the actual situation and not my supposition. Maybe things have gone too far to walk away.... but what if you did? What if you drew a boundary and let her know you will not support her or her continued interaction with someone who tried to physically harm her? What if you stopped providing a pay-off for the drama?
Would she wise-up? Or continue to self-destruct via her abuser?
jbenben, it's good that posted that idea because that is how many people view situations like this one. Unfortunately, that is not how abusive relationships work. Abusive relationships work because the abuser successfully isolates the victim from healthy relationships and skews their perspective of what is a healthy relationship. The "good" parts of the relationship seem really good because the bad parts are really bad. The abuser drives off people who are interested in helping the victim by being a huge asshole and creating an environment were people cannot stand supporting the victim any longer. Sometimes abusers punish the victim for hanging with friends without them. Sometimes the abuser tells the victim that they are worthless, other people would leave them, and that the victim is lucky that the abuser is sticking around because they are the only person who really likes them. The victim is confused by the attention that they receive because they they confused about their own self worth and the concern that people are expressing. If people start leaving the victim they prove the abuser right. That is how the abuser wins.
The victim is seriously mentally messed up by the situation and you can't expect them to logically think through ultimatums like the one you are proposing. The victim is looking for reassurance that other people still like them even though they are in a difficult situation. They are often concerned that people will leave them because they feel that they are not worthy of other peoples time. They have low self esteem. Telling them that you will leave them over this is the last thing that anyone should consider doing. Instead the victim needs to be exposed to good people who are capable of having a healthy friendships with them. They need to be repeatedly told that you will listen to them no matter how bad they are feeling about themselves and the situation that they are in. They need to be reminded that there are people they can turn to.
What you are proposing could be a death sentence for the victim, seriously. It should only be considered if your own physical or mental health is seriously threatened by the situation. I don't think that this is anywhere near that stage yet.
posted by Procloeon at 9:20 AM on November 10, 2009 [4 favorites]
Would she wise-up? Or continue to self-destruct via her abuser?
jbenben, it's good that posted that idea because that is how many people view situations like this one. Unfortunately, that is not how abusive relationships work. Abusive relationships work because the abuser successfully isolates the victim from healthy relationships and skews their perspective of what is a healthy relationship. The "good" parts of the relationship seem really good because the bad parts are really bad. The abuser drives off people who are interested in helping the victim by being a huge asshole and creating an environment were people cannot stand supporting the victim any longer. Sometimes abusers punish the victim for hanging with friends without them. Sometimes the abuser tells the victim that they are worthless, other people would leave them, and that the victim is lucky that the abuser is sticking around because they are the only person who really likes them. The victim is confused by the attention that they receive because they they confused about their own self worth and the concern that people are expressing. If people start leaving the victim they prove the abuser right. That is how the abuser wins.
The victim is seriously mentally messed up by the situation and you can't expect them to logically think through ultimatums like the one you are proposing. The victim is looking for reassurance that other people still like them even though they are in a difficult situation. They are often concerned that people will leave them because they feel that they are not worthy of other peoples time. They have low self esteem. Telling them that you will leave them over this is the last thing that anyone should consider doing. Instead the victim needs to be exposed to good people who are capable of having a healthy friendships with them. They need to be repeatedly told that you will listen to them no matter how bad they are feeling about themselves and the situation that they are in. They need to be reminded that there are people they can turn to.
What you are proposing could be a death sentence for the victim, seriously. It should only be considered if your own physical or mental health is seriously threatened by the situation. I don't think that this is anywhere near that stage yet.
posted by Procloeon at 9:20 AM on November 10, 2009 [4 favorites]
This is going to sound bizarre, but don't go around badmouthing Charles to her right now. If she's going to go back to him (and I've heard it takes 6-7 times for a woman to decide to finally leave for good!), odds are high that she'll tell him that you said bad things about him if/when he forces her to tell him, and then he won't "let" her hang around you any more. Abusers WANT to cut their prey off from all help, and you want to appear to be somewhat on his side, or ineffectual, or generally not a threat to him. Plus it's not exactly going to make a dent on her if she's still in "I luuuuuuuuuuv him" mode.
Yes, this sounds twisted, but it freaking works when I have to deal with friends who have abuser husbands who aren't ready to leave yet. You can point out tactfully that this stuff is likely to continue, but don't be all "Oh, Charles is SUCH A DICK."
Anyway, my question: what do I do if she goes back to him? what do I say, how do I react? I don't want to and won't cut her out of my life, but I'm not sure how to handle it if she tells me she is in contact with Charles again in any capacity. I've told her if she sees him again after this, I consider it likely she will end up raped and/or in a body bag. So what do I do if she does see him again, which I'm afraid to admit is a very strong possibility?
What do you do? Nothing, you can't do squat really. I'd probably just say "Oh" and not say much to her. Definitely not a "yay," but if she's in deluded mode she's not going to listen to "He's going to hit you again" logic either. If she asks you to pick her up when he's hitting her again, you can take action, but if she's choosing to go back to him you really won't be able to stop her right now. I hate to say that some people have to learn the hard way, but.... I definitely recommend trying to stay "neutral" as much as you can. When the chick isn't ready to leave, nagging her to leave is not going to get her to, it'll only annoy her.
I second that ultimatums don't work. She can't take someone else taking a hard stance against the relationship (I just had this discussion with someone in a similar situation last night). You have to walk a really strange middle road until she's ready to take the leap to the other side. As long as she's in danger, you have to (a) position yourself in a way so that you are still accessible to her when she needs to finally leave him for good, yet (b) not be pushing her so hard to leave that she chooses him over you and then doesn't have you if/when things get really bad. These things cycle and when she's on the good end of the cycle she isn't so likely to get clue bats dropping on her head. She has to figure out on her own that it's not going to get better.
You have my sympathy. I'm kind of there again doing it now myself, and it's a rough road.
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:48 PM on November 10, 2009
Yes, this sounds twisted, but it freaking works when I have to deal with friends who have abuser husbands who aren't ready to leave yet. You can point out tactfully that this stuff is likely to continue, but don't be all "Oh, Charles is SUCH A DICK."
Anyway, my question: what do I do if she goes back to him? what do I say, how do I react? I don't want to and won't cut her out of my life, but I'm not sure how to handle it if she tells me she is in contact with Charles again in any capacity. I've told her if she sees him again after this, I consider it likely she will end up raped and/or in a body bag. So what do I do if she does see him again, which I'm afraid to admit is a very strong possibility?
What do you do? Nothing, you can't do squat really. I'd probably just say "Oh" and not say much to her. Definitely not a "yay," but if she's in deluded mode she's not going to listen to "He's going to hit you again" logic either. If she asks you to pick her up when he's hitting her again, you can take action, but if she's choosing to go back to him you really won't be able to stop her right now. I hate to say that some people have to learn the hard way, but.... I definitely recommend trying to stay "neutral" as much as you can. When the chick isn't ready to leave, nagging her to leave is not going to get her to, it'll only annoy her.
I second that ultimatums don't work. She can't take someone else taking a hard stance against the relationship (I just had this discussion with someone in a similar situation last night). You have to walk a really strange middle road until she's ready to take the leap to the other side. As long as she's in danger, you have to (a) position yourself in a way so that you are still accessible to her when she needs to finally leave him for good, yet (b) not be pushing her so hard to leave that she chooses him over you and then doesn't have you if/when things get really bad. These things cycle and when she's on the good end of the cycle she isn't so likely to get clue bats dropping on her head. She has to figure out on her own that it's not going to get better.
You have my sympathy. I'm kind of there again doing it now myself, and it's a rough road.
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:48 PM on November 10, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
A libel suit is not a a good reason to avoid reporting this incident and others to the police. In the present case such a suit would be merely an extension of the abuse and (hopefully) wouldn't really go anywhere. (IANAL). That said, you or her mother or someone else close to her SHOULD talk to the police on her behalf just to get this guy on their radar.
I know a guy who sounds eerily like this description, is about your friend's age, and his name actually IS Charles. If your friend is in DC, please send me some MefiMail.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 6:24 PM on November 9, 2009