How can we stay friends?
May 6, 2008 9:27 PM Subscribe
Relationship filter: My best friend, who was my first boyfriend, is dating a woman who doesn't like me, and the antipathy is mutual. From weekly phone calls, we now talk less than once a month. Should I keep pushing to keep the friendship, or stop trying to stay friends?
So, this guy was my first boyfriend. We dated for three years and he broke up with me 7 years ago. We've been bestfriends since before we started dating and nothing changed after we broke up. I've been in two serious relationships since, but he didn't date much. Every year or so, he'd tell me that he still had strong feelings for me, but neither of us was interesting in resuming the romantic relationship, and I've been in a committed relationship for several years.
Last fall he started dating a woman a few years older than both of us. It quickly got serious, but since I live out of state I only heard about her (wonderful things) until I met her last spring. Apparently my friend had told her that he was still in love with me and fantasized about me when they had sex. We didn't hit it off, to put it mildly.
Over the last few months, our contact has fallen off from talking/emailing/texting weekly to less than a month. He hasn't contacted me since the end of February, when I sent him an email. He's a friend I treasure and, until this year, was my best friend. Should I keep pushing for contact by continuing to phone him though he rarely returns messages or picks up, or wait until things change for him and he wants to reach out to me?
So, this guy was my first boyfriend. We dated for three years and he broke up with me 7 years ago. We've been bestfriends since before we started dating and nothing changed after we broke up. I've been in two serious relationships since, but he didn't date much. Every year or so, he'd tell me that he still had strong feelings for me, but neither of us was interesting in resuming the romantic relationship, and I've been in a committed relationship for several years.
Last fall he started dating a woman a few years older than both of us. It quickly got serious, but since I live out of state I only heard about her (wonderful things) until I met her last spring. Apparently my friend had told her that he was still in love with me and fantasized about me when they had sex. We didn't hit it off, to put it mildly.
Over the last few months, our contact has fallen off from talking/emailing/texting weekly to less than a month. He hasn't contacted me since the end of February, when I sent him an email. He's a friend I treasure and, until this year, was my best friend. Should I keep pushing for contact by continuing to phone him though he rarely returns messages or picks up, or wait until things change for him and he wants to reach out to me?
Wait.
posted by flabdablet at 9:35 PM on May 6, 2008
posted by flabdablet at 9:35 PM on May 6, 2008
Things change. She probably won't last. I bet if you back off over the next few months this all blows over. I would stay in touch, but minimally, and let the guy know you value his friendship but are willing to not overly assert yourself so that this romance can work too. She may even grow to accept you over time, but only if she gets really comfortable with him. You are competition.
posted by caddis at 9:37 PM on May 6, 2008
posted by caddis at 9:37 PM on May 6, 2008
If he still has strong feelings for you and fantasizes about you during sex with another woman, the time apart may help him get over those feelings and may make him a better best friend in the long run. The awful woman may not last, but a smart woman won't stay with him if he's always pining for someone else. I'd say leave him alone until he contacts you, but definitely be ready to (and make sure he knows you will) support him once they break up.
posted by miniminimarket at 9:53 PM on May 6, 2008
posted by miniminimarket at 9:53 PM on May 6, 2008
Apparently my friend had told her that he was still in love with me and fantasized about me when they had sex.Doesn't sound like he wants to stay "friends." Wait and let him get over you for reals.
posted by infinitewindow at 10:04 PM on May 6, 2008
GlowWyrm has already said it better than I could. Drop him a line in a few months if you haven't heard from him by then.
posted by yohko at 10:16 PM on May 6, 2008
posted by yohko at 10:16 PM on May 6, 2008
Christ, let the poor lovelorn fucker try to get over you.
posted by nicwolff at 10:29 PM on May 6, 2008 [9 favorites]
posted by nicwolff at 10:29 PM on May 6, 2008 [9 favorites]
I'm in a similar sort of situation. Currently, I'm staying in contact with the guy in question, because I'm not going to let some tart ruin a good friendship. Sometimes that means I need to do the reaching out, and that's fine.
The whole getting over you thing is a bit of a spanner in the works, though. I'd suggest a deep and meaningful with this guy where he tells you actually what's going on, and between you, figure out if the friendship is worth maintaining.
posted by ysabet at 10:42 PM on May 6, 2008
The whole getting over you thing is a bit of a spanner in the works, though. I'd suggest a deep and meaningful with this guy where he tells you actually what's going on, and between you, figure out if the friendship is worth maintaining.
posted by ysabet at 10:42 PM on May 6, 2008
I can appreciate that you truly do value his friendship, but I think you need to be completely honest with yourself about your reasons for, in your words, pushing to keep the friendship. You know that he is still in love with you, but now that he has found someone else, your emotional power over him may be somewhat compromised (if temporary). I don't mean to sound harsh. I really do believe that you care for him as a friend and sincerely want to keep your friendship going--but as nicwolff says, let the poor fucker try to get over you. If you truly love him, you will want what's best for him. Let him find love for himself that does not involve pining over someone who's already taken.
posted by parkerama at 10:49 PM on May 6, 2008
posted by parkerama at 10:49 PM on May 6, 2008
Response by poster: Guys - he broke up with me. And getting back together has been an option numerous times over the years, neither of us were interested. And as to my reasons for maintaining the friendship? He is a close friend and I deeply care about him. If I thought the best thing for him was not being in his life, I would absolutely do that. I don't think that's the case.
posted by arnicae at 11:00 PM on May 6, 2008
posted by arnicae at 11:00 PM on May 6, 2008
Best answer: Don't panic. Have faith. Either they'll break up, or she'll develop more confidence in their relationship and he'll be able to fight to keep you around. Good friendships can hibernate.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 11:04 PM on May 6, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 11:04 PM on May 6, 2008 [1 favorite]
If he mentioned to this new girl anything about another girl (i.e. you), he is either amazingly socially inept and/or has no plans of any emotional investment with this girl. I would guess that this "hey I can have a relationship, too" fling will come to an end fairly soon, and you can go back to your strange pseudo-romantic friendship where you make sure neither party has found anybody better yet.
posted by GooseOnTheLoose at 11:38 PM on May 6, 2008
posted by GooseOnTheLoose at 11:38 PM on May 6, 2008
Leave him alone, by pushing it you probably are just harming things. Hopefully he'll come to a happy medium once his new relationship is stronger __OR__ it'll break up.
posted by gadha at 1:33 AM on May 7, 2008
posted by gadha at 1:33 AM on May 7, 2008
Back off, and let them be. You will not win, no matter what you try - it's just not something you can fight against. Later on, you might be close friends again, but you have to give them their space. Later on, she might chill out, but until then, lay low.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 1:41 AM on May 7, 2008
posted by The Light Fantastic at 1:41 AM on May 7, 2008
"Apparently my friend had told her that he was still in love with me and fantasized about me when they had sex."
All I can tell you for sure is this: as long as they're together, this woman will NEVER (EVER EVER EVER) want you around. If you do have a heart to heart with your friend, you may want to clue him in about "excess honesty".
posted by crazylegs at 1:45 AM on May 7, 2008 [3 favorites]
All I can tell you for sure is this: as long as they're together, this woman will NEVER (EVER EVER EVER) want you around. If you do have a heart to heart with your friend, you may want to clue him in about "excess honesty".
posted by crazylegs at 1:45 AM on May 7, 2008 [3 favorites]
Ambrosia Voyeur summed it up perfectly with "Good friendships can hibernate". Wait it out and I'm betting the friendship will be as strong as ever in the years to come.
posted by ceri richard at 2:33 AM on May 7, 2008
posted by ceri richard at 2:33 AM on May 7, 2008
My heart goes out to you. My best friend was also my first boyfriend/lover and i dread the day i go through what you are doing now.
If you look at the posts of those who recently broke up but are striving to remain friends, you would notice that it is often strongly advised that the breakee and the breaker go cold turkey' (i.e. the no contact rule) from each other as the period of no contact allows all messy and emotions to cool off and the rational mind can kick in.
In this case, while your best friend was the breaker, he is also the one still stuck (whilst, you, the breakor, has somehow moved on). Give him the chance to go cold turkey and with all hope, your best friendship can continue without the messy romantic feelings in place. Stay strong and like the 1st post said, let him know in no less uncertain terms that you will be there for him (as a friend) when he needs you.
posted by prudie at 2:54 AM on May 7, 2008
If you look at the posts of those who recently broke up but are striving to remain friends, you would notice that it is often strongly advised that the breakee and the breaker go cold turkey' (i.e. the no contact rule) from each other as the period of no contact allows all messy and emotions to cool off and the rational mind can kick in.
In this case, while your best friend was the breaker, he is also the one still stuck (whilst, you, the breakor, has somehow moved on). Give him the chance to go cold turkey and with all hope, your best friendship can continue without the messy romantic feelings in place. Stay strong and like the 1st post said, let him know in no less uncertain terms that you will be there for him (as a friend) when he needs you.
posted by prudie at 2:54 AM on May 7, 2008
Er, am I the only one weirded out that this guy would fantasize about you and:
a) share this info with you (which I feel is inappropriate) AND
b) share this info with the other woman? (which I feel is really, REALLY inappropriate)
I'm somewhat astonished the other woman hasn't dumped him already.
I would concur with the other replies here, and say it's a bad idea to contact him further. But not because it would ruin or confuse your friendship. I would say stop contacting him, because from this single act, he sounds like an immature, self-centered asshole who doesn't have either your or his girlfriend's best interests at heart.
But I'll readily admit I'm probably the asshole here...because nobody else seems to agree.
posted by uxo at 3:40 AM on May 7, 2008 [3 favorites]
a) share this info with you (which I feel is inappropriate) AND
b) share this info with the other woman? (which I feel is really, REALLY inappropriate)
I'm somewhat astonished the other woman hasn't dumped him already.
I would concur with the other replies here, and say it's a bad idea to contact him further. But not because it would ruin or confuse your friendship. I would say stop contacting him, because from this single act, he sounds like an immature, self-centered asshole who doesn't have either your or his girlfriend's best interests at heart.
But I'll readily admit I'm probably the asshole here...because nobody else seems to agree.
posted by uxo at 3:40 AM on May 7, 2008 [3 favorites]
Nthing what Uxo said.
Is he TRYING to destroy his relationship with the new girl AND his friendship with you? What a dick.
posted by zia at 3:51 AM on May 7, 2008
Is he TRYING to destroy his relationship with the new girl AND his friendship with you? What a dick.
posted by zia at 3:51 AM on May 7, 2008
Agreeing with Uxo. By sharing his sexual fantasies about you not only with you but with his current girlfriend, he's made it VERY hard to continue the friendship as it was. Either he's VERY socially inept, or he's a manipulative jerkwad who is enjoying having two women on a string.
If he's as good a friend as you say, AND his problem is social klutziness and naivete, it might be a good thing to talk to him and say "Look, there's such a thing as Too Much Honesty and Openness. This difficulty in maintaining our friendship came about because of your big mouth. How can we fix this?"
Also, you don't know what else he's told his current girlfriend about you - if he's using you as a cudgel to (figuratively) beat his girlfriend about the head with, of course she's not going to want to be around you. Maybe this guy just needs to learn how to act in relationships (if you were his first girlfriend) and learn some tact.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 5:49 AM on May 7, 2008
If he's as good a friend as you say, AND his problem is social klutziness and naivete, it might be a good thing to talk to him and say "Look, there's such a thing as Too Much Honesty and Openness. This difficulty in maintaining our friendship came about because of your big mouth. How can we fix this?"
Also, you don't know what else he's told his current girlfriend about you - if he's using you as a cudgel to (figuratively) beat his girlfriend about the head with, of course she's not going to want to be around you. Maybe this guy just needs to learn how to act in relationships (if you were his first girlfriend) and learn some tact.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 5:49 AM on May 7, 2008
He might not be as manipulative, socially inept or a jerk as some of you are saying. Is it possible he's using this new girl to drive a wedge in your friendship? By telling her that information, it's pretty much guaranteeing that she wont want you around and therefore it gives him a convenient excuse to distance himself. Plus, she's going to make him stick to his guns versus him trying to do it on his own, I'm sure it'd be all too easy for him to fall back into your friendship without her minding him.
posted by lannanh at 6:34 AM on May 7, 2008
posted by lannanh at 6:34 AM on May 7, 2008
arnicae: Guys - he broke up with me. And getting back together has been an option numerous times over the years, neither of us were interested. And as to my reasons for maintaining the friendship? He is a close friend and I deeply care about him. If I thought the best thing for him was not being in his life, I would absolutely do that. I don't think that's the case.
It's immaterial whether he broke up with you or you broke up with him, unfortunately; the point under deliberation is whether he's actually over you. He's clearly not.
If he's having sexual fantasies about you while he's having sex with his current girlfriend, he might not be over you. If he tells you that he has sexual fantasies about you while he's having sex with his current girlfriend, he's almost certainly not over you. And if he tells his girlfriend... well, that's both a sign that he's not over you and a bad idea in general.
Ambrosia Voyeur says it pretty perfectly. Giving him space to get over it doesn't mean killing the friendship. You don't have to confront him, and you don't have to give him an ultimatum; just don't call him too much until he shows you he's ready by calling you.
posted by Viomeda at 8:02 AM on May 7, 2008
It's immaterial whether he broke up with you or you broke up with him, unfortunately; the point under deliberation is whether he's actually over you. He's clearly not.
If he's having sexual fantasies about you while he's having sex with his current girlfriend, he might not be over you. If he tells you that he has sexual fantasies about you while he's having sex with his current girlfriend, he's almost certainly not over you. And if he tells his girlfriend... well, that's both a sign that he's not over you and a bad idea in general.
Ambrosia Voyeur says it pretty perfectly. Giving him space to get over it doesn't mean killing the friendship. You don't have to confront him, and you don't have to give him an ultimatum; just don't call him too much until he shows you he's ready by calling you.
posted by Viomeda at 8:02 AM on May 7, 2008
Apparently my friend had told her that he was still in love with me and fantasized about me when they had sex.
Your ex is either a jerk or a fool; I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume the latter. At any rate, yeah, you're going to have to let the friendship go for the time being. I'm guessing they'll break up eventually, and then he'll probably be right back as your friend (at which point you can give him a few hints about what he should and shouldn't share with his girlfriends).
I had to watch a former girlfriend and still close friend decide to marry an insanely controlling jealous type; he tried to cut her off from all male friends anyway, but since he knew I had tried to keep her from marrying him he (quite understandably) viewed me with particular bile, and though for a while she tried keeping in contact with me in ways he couldn't trace, she (quite understandably) gave up after a while, and I haven't heard from her in years. I still miss her; my only consolation is that she knows our friendship is still there if she ever is able to pick it up again. It's a damn shame, but life can be like that.
posted by languagehat at 8:44 AM on May 7, 2008
Your ex is either a jerk or a fool; I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume the latter. At any rate, yeah, you're going to have to let the friendship go for the time being. I'm guessing they'll break up eventually, and then he'll probably be right back as your friend (at which point you can give him a few hints about what he should and shouldn't share with his girlfriends).
I had to watch a former girlfriend and still close friend decide to marry an insanely controlling jealous type; he tried to cut her off from all male friends anyway, but since he knew I had tried to keep her from marrying him he (quite understandably) viewed me with particular bile, and though for a while she tried keeping in contact with me in ways he couldn't trace, she (quite understandably) gave up after a while, and I haven't heard from her in years. I still miss her; my only consolation is that she knows our friendship is still there if she ever is able to pick it up again. It's a damn shame, but life can be like that.
posted by languagehat at 8:44 AM on May 7, 2008
Response by poster: I'm somewhat astonished the other woman hasn't dumped him already.
Yeah, I would have if I was her. One of the reasons he and I broke up (and I wasn't interested in trying out part two) is that he is extremely emotionally manipulative with the women he dates - never his friends, just his girlfriends. He was being honest with her, but also doing it to be manipulative.
They're both at the stage in their lives where they want kids and want security and are scared of never finding anyone else.
And just to reiterate - I found someone better. I'm with him, and incredibly happy. He's the first guy I've ever lived with, first guy I've ever wanted to live with. But just because I have a happy/successful relationship doesn't mean I want to abandon my friends.
posted by arnicae at 9:00 AM on May 7, 2008
Yeah, I would have if I was her. One of the reasons he and I broke up (and I wasn't interested in trying out part two) is that he is extremely emotionally manipulative with the women he dates - never his friends, just his girlfriends. He was being honest with her, but also doing it to be manipulative.
They're both at the stage in their lives where they want kids and want security and are scared of never finding anyone else.
And just to reiterate - I found someone better. I'm with him, and incredibly happy. He's the first guy I've ever lived with, first guy I've ever wanted to live with. But just because I have a happy/successful relationship doesn't mean I want to abandon my friends.
posted by arnicae at 9:00 AM on May 7, 2008
But just because I have a happy/successful relationship doesn't mean I want to abandon my friends.
I understand that, but you haven't abandoned this friendship. It's on hiatus for reasons beyond your control. I don't think there's anything you can do. Let things be for now. Odds are this relationship of his won't last and then he'll have time for you again.
But honestly... his telling his girlfriend about how he fantasizes about you when they have sex is a supremely shitty thing for him to do. And then, to go from heinous offence to worse than heinous, he tells you all about it?! From the timeline supplied in your question, I'd judge you both to be at least in your late twenties, which is far too old for him to be doing this kind of crap. I think some distance might be a good thing for you. Concentrate on your good relationships for now. Sometimes I've had to get completely away from a friendship for a few years to even begin to understand just how big a waste of time it was.
posted by orange swan at 9:25 AM on May 7, 2008
I understand that, but you haven't abandoned this friendship. It's on hiatus for reasons beyond your control. I don't think there's anything you can do. Let things be for now. Odds are this relationship of his won't last and then he'll have time for you again.
But honestly... his telling his girlfriend about how he fantasizes about you when they have sex is a supremely shitty thing for him to do. And then, to go from heinous offence to worse than heinous, he tells you all about it?! From the timeline supplied in your question, I'd judge you both to be at least in your late twenties, which is far too old for him to be doing this kind of crap. I think some distance might be a good thing for you. Concentrate on your good relationships for now. Sometimes I've had to get completely away from a friendship for a few years to even begin to understand just how big a waste of time it was.
posted by orange swan at 9:25 AM on May 7, 2008
Should I keep pushing for contact by continuing to phone him though he rarely returns messages or picks up, or wait until things change for him and he wants to reach out to me?
The latter, of course. As said above by sondrialic, it sounds like he's quite enjoying playing the two women in his life against each other, and if I were you, I wouldn't want to take part in any games of that nature.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:06 AM on May 7, 2008 [1 favorite]
The latter, of course. As said above by sondrialic, it sounds like he's quite enjoying playing the two women in his life against each other, and if I were you, I wouldn't want to take part in any games of that nature.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:06 AM on May 7, 2008 [1 favorite]
But just because I have a happy/successful relationship doesn't mean I want to abandon my friends.Just because this guy isn't an asshole to you anymore doesn't mean he's not an asshole anymore.
posted by infinitewindow at 12:15 PM on May 7, 2008
Response by poster: I get that you want to blame the girlfriend (I have no idea what her age has to do with it),
She has reached a point in her life that she desperately wants to settle down and have kids. No shit, her profile on the dating site that my friend met her from said she wanted 1-3 kids "immediately". My friend, though getting scared about never finding someone is, like me, several years younger.
My broad categorization is that she is much more ready to settle down in part because she's older than us. That's the only relevance of her age. I do think she is rather vapid, but that can happen at any age.
And of course I blame her! We were friends until they started dating, and his previous (very short-term) girlfriends and I got along extremely well. I just think he deserves someone better and someone who won't take his shit - he needs a smart, strong partner, not one who takes every criticism to heart, as she does.
Anyway, thanks for the thoughtful responses. He is an asshole, I do want him as a friend, and I will wait until he's interested in the friendship.
posted by arnicae at 3:21 PM on May 7, 2008
She has reached a point in her life that she desperately wants to settle down and have kids. No shit, her profile on the dating site that my friend met her from said she wanted 1-3 kids "immediately". My friend, though getting scared about never finding someone is, like me, several years younger.
My broad categorization is that she is much more ready to settle down in part because she's older than us. That's the only relevance of her age. I do think she is rather vapid, but that can happen at any age.
And of course I blame her! We were friends until they started dating, and his previous (very short-term) girlfriends and I got along extremely well. I just think he deserves someone better and someone who won't take his shit - he needs a smart, strong partner, not one who takes every criticism to heart, as she does.
Anyway, thanks for the thoughtful responses. He is an asshole, I do want him as a friend, and I will wait until he's interested in the friendship.
posted by arnicae at 3:21 PM on May 7, 2008
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That way you've done all you can do as far as being a really good friend. The ball would be in his court.
Your friendship with him is really special and has lasted a long time. I hope you two are able to maintain it somehow. Good luck.
posted by GlowWyrm at 9:35 PM on May 6, 2008 [1 favorite]