they murdered her
March 10, 2008 1:58 PM   Subscribe

A pair of pit bulls broke into my friend's house and murdered his little dog. What should be done -- legally, ethically, etc.?

The pit bulls belonged to a neighbor. They punched a hole in their shared fence, entered my friend's home through the large dog door (he also has a vizsla, but it's the most timid, helpless creature and likely hid when the pits broke in), cornered his chubby little daschund, and killed her. Our friend found her body when he came home from work. Needless to say, he was devastated -- he raised her from a baby, and her companionship helped him through extremely difficult times.

He's not a vindictive person, and would never sue for the dogs to be put to sleep or anything like that. I believe he's spoken to the neighbor, and the neighbor is repairing the fence. These are all the details I know.

Beyond this, are there any other steps he can/should take? What is the neighbor obligated to do legally and ethically? I'm a dog-lover, but I'm not naive -- I know not every dog can be rehabilitated. Typically, do dogs like these become irreversibly murder-minded once they've killed, or could it have been a fluke pack thing? And lastly, what should I say to him when I see him? :(
posted by changeling to Pets & Animals (87 answers total) 6 users marked this as a favorite
 
The neighbor's dogs should be put down. Period.
posted by Justinian at 2:00 PM on March 10, 2008 [38 favorites]


Absolutely. These dogs are out of control: They could have killed someone's child. Indeed, if your friend does nothing they may kill someone's child in the future. How will your friend feel then?

Report it to the police.
posted by pharm at 2:02 PM on March 10, 2008 [9 favorites]


Yup, the dogs need to be put down. IMHO, you should report it to the police even if your friend doesn't want you to.
posted by ten pounds of inedita at 2:03 PM on March 10, 2008


I realize your friend is "not a vindictive person," but these dogs are a hazard, and the neighbors are irresponsible pet owners. Your friend needs to file a report with Animal Control at the very least. Yes, these dogs need to be put down. They could easily go after someone's child and then there would be a big lawsuit and possibly criminal charges.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 2:03 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]


Christ, call the cops, and call animal patrol. Does your friend want to wake up some night with the dogs attacking him? Will he feel fine about not reporting it if the dogs attack a child or elderly person walking down the street?

The dogs broke into the house - i.e., they weren't defending their territory, they were invading. This is really really not okay dog behavior.

Morally and ethically - and probably legally, too - the neighbor should call animal control himself, and give up his dogs. That's unlikely to happen.
posted by rtha at 2:03 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]


Rehabilitation isn't something that applies to pit bulls who have killed a dog in another person's home. Sounds like a call to Animal Control or, if they come back before the fence is repaired, shooting them.

Don't fuck around with pit bulls.
posted by Benjy at 2:06 PM on March 10, 2008


What you should say is simply "I'm sorry for your loss"
If he is having a hard time, he might want to call a pet loss hotline to be able to talk with someone who understands what he going through. I think the major vet schools all host one - just google "pet loss hotline" to find one nearby.

In terms of the neighbor's dogs, you might want to call the SPCA for advice. However, whatever they say, don't give your friend advice unless he asks for it. You may have more energy for solving his problem than he does.
posted by metahawk at 2:06 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]


It's one thing for a dog to be aggressive when challenged, but I am surprised/disturbed that these two dogs broke through multiple physical barriers to attack another dog. You said the Doxie was a female - was she in heat? That's the only thing that comes to mind that would provoke a dog from far away.

I'd tell your friend to contact the police and animal control ASAP. An Animal Control Officer needs to investigate. And having a police report on file is just a good idea.


In terms of what to say, I'd just try to comfort him the way you'd comfort any person when they're upset. If you're able, making a financial contribution to the local shelter or the ASPCA in the dog's name is a nice touch. They'll send your friend a note letting them know that you gave.
posted by radioamy at 2:07 PM on March 10, 2008


Did he file a police report? I'm guessing not.

Some pitbulls are just incredible pets, such a shame a few like these give the breed overall a bad name. I'd say have them put down. Getting loose is one thing, entering your friend's house is a whole other ball of yarn. They will do it again, and it might not be a weiner dog next time.
posted by freq at 2:09 PM on March 10, 2008 [2 favorites]


I hate to every say an animal needs to be put down, but your neighbor has obviously not taken the proper care to raise these animals correctly. They need to go.
posted by ISeemToBeAVerb at 2:18 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]


Response by poster: they weren't defending their territory, they were invading

Put this way, yeah, wow... you're completely right.
posted by changeling at 2:19 PM on March 10, 2008


The neighbour's dogs absolutely have to be put down. Aggressive dogs don't just kill pets and children, they can kill grown adults. It doesn't matter who does it, but there needs to be calls to both the police and animal control.

Your friend may feel bad now, but I imagine he'll feel a lot worse if these animals kill a person later.
posted by Nelsormensch at 2:22 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]


Did the dachsund have a cash value? CAlifornia and some other states allow the owner of animals killed by dogs to sue for treble damages in small claims court. It won't restore the loss of a beloved pet, but it goes a long way toward assuring irresponsible owners learn to control their animals.

As a dog lover who has been forced to kill several dogs over the years to protect my livestock, I have nothing but contempt for dog owners who fail to control their "pets".
posted by buggzzee23 at 2:22 PM on March 10, 2008


I love dogs. Love love love dogs. I love pit bulls--I rescued one from the streets of Baltimore a few years ago and found her a lovely home, only not keeping her because one of my roommates was allergic.

But I also have a realistic viewpoint of dogs. When you have a dog that is killing other animals due to poor training, a dog that is going out of its way to kill other animals (and make no mistake, breaking through a fence and into a house to get at a dachshund is going out of its way), you are dealing with a dangerous, dangerous creature that must be put down. It is truly heartbreaking. These things are not a fault of the animal, but of the owner's negligence. But it is a necessity. As others said, first it's a dachshund, then what? A child? An elderly person? A human?

Pit bulls are lovely, lovely animals. But maliciously trained, or not trained at all, they can be very dangerous simply because of what they were bred for. In that state they represent a risk that you won't find in smaller, weaker breeds.

You need to contact the SPCA and Animal Control. Letting this go is not forgiveness. It's rank negligence.
posted by schroedinger at 2:22 PM on March 10, 2008 [12 favorites]


Er, in my above comment it comes off like children and elderly people are not humans. I meant to say "A child? An elderly person? Anyone who can't fight off two fully-grown enraged pit bulls?"
posted by schroedinger at 2:24 PM on March 10, 2008 [2 favorites]


I find it a little disappointing that people are so quick to proclaim their love of dogs and then immediately condemn the two in question - to death.

If the facts presented are the whole story - maybe they should be put down. But isn't it a tad presumptive to assume that we know the whole story? I present to you a set of hypothetical circumstances. In no way am I presuming that this is what happened - but rather, this is something I could imagine happening - which would at least make me question an immediate death sentence.

Could the neighbors child have been throwing balls for their dogs, when one went over the fence? Some children might have just figured the game was over and gone inside, but perhaps the dogs continued to go for the ball, making it through the fence, and then finding themselves face to face with the dachshund, who perhaps did her best to scare the dogs away from her territory, only to have her bravado provoke the dogs who then chased her inside and killed her.

Sure, the dogs were still in the wrong - but this isn't the only set of extenuating circumstances that might make a difference. And it certainly seems justifiable to attempt some more fact finding before putting dogs down. Which is exactly my advice to the OP.
posted by terpia at 2:51 PM on March 10, 2008


What schroedinger said. Putting dogs down is the very, very last resort but I think it might be the only way to go in this case and someone in authority has to be informed so that they can take action.

I'm so very sorry for your friend's loss.
posted by ceri richard at 2:51 PM on March 10, 2008


Whatever happens to the dogs, it's important to realize the neighbor's role in this. Even if the dogs get put down, you still have a stupid, dangerous human who trains/allows pit bulls to be violent running around. A new dog could be trained the same way as his current dogs were.
posted by needs more cowbell at 2:51 PM on March 10, 2008 [4 favorites]


I love dogs. I love pit bulls - used to live with two of them and they were great, loyal, sweet dogs. I'm also usually all for rehabilitation/training/whatever is necessary BUT...

Any dog that attacks a human or kills another animal viciously like that needs to be put down as soon as possible. It's a danger to itself and any other living things around it, humans included. If the dachsund had wandered into their yard and then gotten killed it might be up for debate but they broke into his home.
posted by bradbane at 2:52 PM on March 10, 2008


Response by poster: OP here: Apparently the neighbor has been extremely apologetic; is working on the fence now; and offered to give him another dog whenever he's ready. Obviously this doesn't affect the core issue, which is these pits being put down to prevent future attacks. If/when he files a police report and if/when the dogs get put down, how does he deal with the terrible bad blood that would arise between him and his neighbor? He's an owner, not a renter, so he can't move. This situation stinks.
posted by changeling at 2:53 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]


nthing the above. Express to your friend that these two dogs must be reported. Will they be put down as a result? Probably.

But is it vindictiveness? No. Try and help him understand that he WILL have been an accidental accomplice in the case that someone else's pet or child is killed. This is a crucial point.

posted by crunch buttsteak at 2:54 PM on March 10, 2008


terpia, even under those circumstances, the dogs were out of control, not properly restrained or properly cared for. If they were big enough to jump a fence and take off then they shouldn't have been outside only under the watch of playing children.

These dogs need to die. I say that as a dog owner and dog lover. They need to be gone.
posted by Dreama at 2:57 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]


Response by poster: tepia, they deliberately punched a hole in the fence and broke through into my friend's yard. Premeditated, I'm sure -- they must have known the daschund lived there.
posted by changeling at 3:00 PM on March 10, 2008


One step your friend could take is to get rid of that large dog door you mentioned. He'll have to let the viszla in and out manually, but the extra bother should be worth it for the knowledge that there's nowhere the pit bulls can enter.
posted by Pallas Athena at 3:07 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]


Obviously this doesn't affect the core issue, which is these pits being put down to prevent future attacks.

Also, seeking monetary damages helps to ensure that dog owners won't let their dogs act like this. This is about the danger these dogs pose, and the danger posed by all owners who don't control their pets.

Defending yourself != vindictiveness.
posted by ibmcginty at 3:07 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]


Please please please call animal control and let them do their job. Perhaps the result won't be the pups have to be put down. In some cases the dogs and owners get one chance, but Animal control NEEDS to know about these guys so that they can be aware of them.

I'm so sorry for your friend.
posted by legotech at 3:07 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]


terpia, your hypothetical still means that the dogs are way, way, way out of control and dangerous. I can't even imagine a plausible scenario where it would be understandable for dogs to break through multiple barriers, save someone maliciously and deliberately working the dogs up to a bloodlust and then leading the pit bulls to the dachshund. A ball game does not qualify.

changeling: If your friend can approach a conversation with the neighbor in sadness, rather than anger, he should ask the neighbor directly if he's planning to have the dogs put down. It is the obvious assumption, and if the neighbor is even passingly familiar with The Right Thing To Do, it should have crossed his mind, even though it's a painful decision. Your friend should avoid using terms like "murder." It's certainly a valid way for him to feel, but it's unhelpfully inflammatory.
posted by desuetude at 3:08 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]


The situation really does stink. Any dog lover, myself included, can understand how difficult this is. My english bulldog once attacked a fifteen year old girl who came to our home and didn't know how to act with him. Within a few days an Animal Control representative was at the house and we feared for our dog's life. Luckily, the representative was very informed and understanding, especially since the girl had entered 'his' territory. I agree with previous posters that pit bulls, much less two of them together, actively escaping and then entering another home is a very different and incredibly frightening situation, especially when one considers that other animals or humans might one day be at risk. Revenge and vindictiveness won't solve anything, but there is a certain responsibility here if one expects that it could happen again. I think that an important factor will be determining if there was a dog in heat in the house and whether the pit bulls were driven inside for that reason. If this is conclusively the case, perhaps the dogs should be neutered? This would definitely cut down on their aggression. The prospect of two roving, angry pit bulls who intrude and kill without any sexual (and therefore somewhat temporary and repressable) motivation, I think, is of public concern. If those dogs could do something like that again, there is no question that they should be put down.
posted by farishta at 3:09 PM on March 10, 2008


second legotech: this is a situation for an informed professional to deal with.
posted by farishta at 3:10 PM on March 10, 2008


Should'a previewed. (Sorry, terpia, didn't mean to be adding to a pile-on, even if we all do disagree with your statement.)

Personally, I'm not in favor of suing. While the friendliness between the neighbors will certainly be very affected in the short term, the owner may be able to someday understand that the dogs needed to be put down. Forgiveness of suing is a different story.
posted by desuetude at 3:11 PM on March 10, 2008


While it's likely that, should animal control be brought into this, the dgs will be put down, that determination will be made by animal control, and not by your friend, or you.

But you must call. How do you know this is the first time something like this has happened? How do you know that your friend isn't the first to suffer the effects of these dogs?

Of course the neighbor's apologetic. He doesn't want to be sued, or arrested, or have his dogs taken away from him. He's doing what he can to keep those things from happening.

Please, please encourage your friend to call animal control and report this. I have known lovely and loving pit bulls, rotties, cockapoos, labs, poodles, etc., but if any one of them did something like this, I'd call animal control in a heartbeat. Please think about the next people down the line - who might lose a child - if this goes unreported.
posted by rtha at 3:12 PM on March 10, 2008 [3 favorites]


changeling: it sounds like your friend is wavering on what to do because his neighbor is being nice and apologetic.

Your neighbor is being nice and apologetic because he fucked up royally and knows it. He's got legal exposure and he knows it. His dogs are dangerous and he knows it. It doesn't matter how sorry the guy is, the issue is that his dogs clearly present a danger to other animals and, quite possibly, people. The right thing to do is to report this to animal control. Don't lie about what happened but don't sugarcoat it, either.

Let animal control decide the dogs' fate because your friend, it looks like, will have trouble being assertive about this for fear of neighborly retribution.
posted by Justinian at 3:15 PM on March 10, 2008 [2 favorites]


huh, or what rtha said.
posted by Justinian at 3:16 PM on March 10, 2008


needs more cowbell makes a really good point that is unfortunately ignored in our legal system. Stupid dog owners are generally not given the kind of punishment deserved for directly or indirectly causing the deaths of not only someone else's pet (or someone else) but their own dogs as well. God help your friend if his neighbor decides to get MORE dogs.
posted by schroedinger at 3:16 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]


Err, aren't we a bit quick to pass judgment here?

Loosing a dog is about as horrible as loosing a family member and you should approach your friend as you you would approach any friend after a loss of a loved one.

As for the pitbulls. Maybe I live in a fantasy land much less fluffy and unicorny that the rest of the posters in this thread but in my experience dogs don't really have any problems killing other dogs, they do it all the time and then go back being lovely family members.

Maybe the neighbor dogs are psycho killers that are dangerous to other people. Then they should die. Maybe the dogs just had their differences and solved them the dog-eat-dog way. Then fence repair/reinforcement (so the doggies won't get out of the yard ever again) is enough. The neighbor buying a new dog goes without saying.
posted by uandt at 3:22 PM on March 10, 2008 [2 favorites]


He should call animal control, and the police. Let them decide how to handle it.. They may not handle it perfectly, but that's their job, not his. The owner of the attacking dogs should reimburse him for the cost of a new pet, even though it might be a while before he's ready. I'm sorry for his loss; what a horrid scenario to come home to.
posted by theora55 at 3:28 PM on March 10, 2008


On the one hand, terpia is missing one of the more obvious alternatives: dachshunds can be really fiesty, ornery little dogs, and it's not out of the realm of possibility for one to go after a pit bull, especially if the pit isn't giving off good dog body language (which they often don't). I mean, they were bred to go after badgers.

On the other hand, it doesn't matter what was in the pits' heads when they killed the dachshund. What matters is that they killed the dachshund. Not that they had a fight with the dachshund, not that they hurt the dachshund in a way consistent with a disagreement that got out of hand, but that they killed the dachshund. Not the sort of dogs you want around. And frankly, humanely killing a dog really is not a terrible thing to do to it. They go to the vet expecting nothing, fearing nothing (beyond any anxiety they've built up over vet visits), and then they're gone. That doesn't mean you should kill dogs whenever they're inconvenient, but when they pose a recently-demonstrated hazard? Yah.

At the very least, somebody should sit down with the pit owner and tell him about what ticking liability bombs these dogs are now. They get loose and kill some other pet or, god forbid, hurt someone, and it likely won't just be an accident -- it will be something that he negligently let happen knowing that his dogs had a propensity to attack. Bad, bad, bad shit. Potentially ruin-your-life bad for him. Dunno whether this knowledge is relevant in CA, though.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 3:31 PM on March 10, 2008


Wait, I somehow didn't notice that this was happening in the house. Ignore the one hand.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 3:31 PM on March 10, 2008


Maybe I live in a fantasy land much less fluffy and unicorny that the rest of the posters in this thread but in my experience dogs don't really have any problems killing other dogs, they do it all the time

I don't know where you live, but this is completely contrary to my experience that I'm a bit shocked.
posted by Justinian at 3:31 PM on March 10, 2008 [3 favorites]


(SO completely contrary)
posted by Justinian at 3:32 PM on March 10, 2008


uandt, "loosing a dog" is indeed horrible, and these pitbulls should never have been "loosed."

changeling, tell your buddy to tell apologetic neighbour that this is out of his (your buddy's) hands. Friends found out about it, they've contacted the authorities, and sorry, nothing he can do, they're dead set on seeing this these monsters never hurt another dog or a human. He'd love to mend fences, but now it's out of his hands.

Reading this story makes me want to kill those things myself. I'm not kidding.
posted by ethnomethodologist at 3:44 PM on March 10, 2008 [3 favorites]


How do you know this is the first time something like this has happened? How do you know that your friend isn't is the first to suffer the effects of these dogs?

That's what I meant to say.

Maybe the dogs just had their differences and solved them the dog-eat-dog way. Then fence repair/reinforcement (so the doggies won't get out of the yard ever again) is enough. The neighbor buying a new dog goes without saying.

Absurd. Don't listen.

It's not like the dogs met on the street, or at a dog park, or in some neutral territory. It's not like your friend's dog entered the pits' yard. They broke through a fence and entered a house not their own to get at the other dog. Not okay, ever.
posted by rtha at 3:49 PM on March 10, 2008


uandt: "As for the pitbulls. Maybe I live in a fantasy land much less fluffy and unicorny that the rest of the posters in this thread but in my experience dogs don't really have any problems killing other dogs, they do it all the time and then go back being lovely family members."

Whoa. Consider my mind blown as well. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say your average Fido doesn't go kill other dogs and then come trotting back in the house in time for dinner. If one of my dogs did this I'm not sure I would let her back in the house around me and my loved ones.
posted by CwgrlUp at 3:57 PM on March 10, 2008 [2 favorites]


Maybe I live in a fantasy land much less fluffy and unicorny that the rest of the posters in this thread but in my experience dogs don't really have any problems killing other dogs, they do it all the time and then go back being lovely family members.

Well, in the non-unicorny real world I grew up in, it's true that dogs were known to kill other animals, including other dogs, and because of this it was perfectly legal and even acceptable to shoot any dog that strayed onto your property. The reality is that dogs, no matter how reasonable you might think their behavior, are not supposed to be allowed to go around killing other animals. It's not OK and it's not legal, no matter how great a family pet they might be.
posted by oneirodynia at 4:17 PM on March 10, 2008


Arr, sorry for the "loosing" spelling error.

But as for the dog-kill-dog part. There has been quite a large increase in later years (sorry no statistics) mainly due to the popularity of smaller dogs (at least where I live). Bigger ones pick them up, shake them around and they die. While a being a tragedy for everyone this goes into the "shit happens" category of things. Dachshunds are normally to big for this to happen but we don't know what really happened here. Don't be judgmental. That is my point.

What bugs me is that many of you people keep on projecting humanity onto dogs. Dogs are tools, companions, accessories and emergency food supply. They are not people. They are animals and even being domesticated ones I've never seen dogs solving problems in ways other than fighting.
posted by uandt at 4:18 PM on March 10, 2008


I'm not advocating killing any stray dog, BTW. But if you have ever spent time in a rural area, especially around ranchers, stray dogs are considered a real threat. People who love their dogs keep them on their property or under their control.
posted by oneirodynia at 4:19 PM on March 10, 2008


Your friend is not "not a vindictive person" for not calling animal control. He's a pussy. And I say that as a dog lover and a peacenik.
posted by notsnot at 4:24 PM on March 10, 2008 [5 favorites]


There has been quite a large increase in later years (sorry no statistics) mainly due to the popularity of smaller dogs (at least where I live). Bigger ones pick them up, shake them around and they die. While a being a tragedy for everyone this goes into the "shit happens" category of things. Dachshunds are normally to big for this to happen but we don't know what really happened here.

We do know that dogs got into someone else's house and killed a dog. It doesn't matter that this is what dogs do, or whether it happens all the time. The point is, dog owners are legally responsible for the actions of their dogs, and it is not legal for dogs to stray onto other people's property and cause damage, including killing other dogs. Just because things happen a lot doesn't make it OK or absolve anyone of responsibility.
posted by oneirodynia at 4:26 PM on March 10, 2008


Dogs don't "break in" people do, dogs also don't murder.

The owner has no ethical responsibility, he does have a legal responsibility.

It is the dachshund owner's responsibility to contact animal control and the police. Why is this even being discussed? If there are viscous dogs that are improperly restrained, then they must be dealt with appropriately.
posted by mattoxic at 4:32 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]


We do know that dogs got into someone else's house and killed a dog. It doesn't matter that this is what dogs do, or whether it happens all the time. The point is, dog owners are legally responsible for the actions of their dogs, and it is not legal for dogs to stray onto other people's property and cause damage, including killing other dogs. Just because things happen a lot doesn't make it OK or absolve anyone of responsibility.

I agree with you but I've been doing my posting in this thread in response to what I perceive as a very strong kill-kill-kill sentiment. Professionals should look at the dogs and decide what to do. That is good advice. The metafilter eye-for-an-eye brigade should just leave it at that.
posted by uandt at 4:52 PM on March 10, 2008


vicious viscous dogs are the worse
posted by mattoxic at 4:53 PM on March 10, 2008


Of course the neighbor is being all sweet and apologetic - he's kissing butt! He doesn't want to be sued! Your friend must not be taken in by this. He needs to grow a spine, call the police and animal control.

The neighbor is, at best, a stupid and irresponsible dog owner, at worst he's a sociopath. Neighbor needs to know in no uncertain terms that there could be civil and criminal charges afoot if he knows his dogs killed another animal and he did nothing about it. Police and courts in many areas are starting to take the issue of dangerous dogs more seriously. If neighbor doesn't do anything except wring his hands and say "of course I'm going to fix the fence!", and the dogs get out again and hurt or kill a person - neighbor is in very deep doo-doo. And your friend might be in trouble too, if he knows those dogs are dangerous and does nothing.

I'm normally in favor of good neighborly relations but not in the case of dangerous dogs. There's too much at stake.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 5:11 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]


I don't see how your friend can even be *considering* not reporting this to animal control. If he doesn't want to file a police report against a neighbor, fine, that's his call. But not reporting it to animal control is both stupid and ethically wrong.

If he's looking for an excuse to tell his neighbor, he can try something like this: "I spoke with a lawyer, and while I don't intend to sue you my lawyer tells me that if this happens again to someone else, it is possible I might face liability for not reporting this incident. I have to take my lawyer's advice, so just wanted to give you a heads up that I've just called in a report to animal control."
posted by mediareport at 5:38 PM on March 10, 2008 [3 favorites]


I've shared here before about a situation I encountered as a social worker where a crackhouse proprietor's pitbull escaped and mauled a 12 year old boy that was playing in the street with my client's child. Surprisingly enough, having that animal taken and destroyed was a complicated and time consuming process that was only brought to fruition by the intervention of the District Attorney herself, and this only after it showed up all over the evening news. It took about two months of continually lobbying the DA's office to get the dog removed and the house boarded over. I was told that if the animal's owner isn't willing to hand the dog over (he wasn't) to the authorities, then it becomes a more complicated legal issue that has to be worked out in court. I have no idea how the laws regarding destroying dangerous pets without their owner's consent might work where you live, I'm just sharing to let you know that this is not likely to be as simple as, "call animal control and they'll come destroy the dog."
posted by The Straightener at 5:39 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]


And frankly, humanely killing a dog really is not a terrible thing to do to it. They go to the vet expecting nothing, fearing nothing (beyond any anxiety they've built up over vet visits), and then they're gone.

Indeed, and also consider how much more painful these pit bulls' deaths may end up being if they ever attack a person or animal that can defend itself, whether it be with a weapon or its natural defenses. This all could end up so much worse.

You don't have to think of this as kill kill kill or eye for an eye. It's not punishment; it's precaution and much more humane than the alternative, even for the dogs themselves. Just consider that an Animal Control officer will be able to decide with a much more objective point of view what kind of consequences are necessary than anyone directly involved. And if that consequence ends up involving putting the dogs to sleep, it's not your (your friend's) fault. It's not the dogs' fault, either, but it sounds like having these dogs' fates in the hands of a third party rather than their current owners will be better for everyone, including the dogs. Sadly, even if they do have to die.

Informing the authorities is the only responsible thing to do. If your friend only reports this and chooses not to sue, he can rest assured that he let his neighbors off easy.
posted by lampoil at 5:40 PM on March 10, 2008


It's worth considering what might have happened to your friend had he been in the house when the dogs broke in. What if it happens again?
posted by hot soup girl at 5:40 PM on March 10, 2008 [4 favorites]


That small dog could have easily been a small child on the kitchen floor in their own home. Can you imagine two large animals on the attack suddenly showing up in your home? I would be grabbing my rifle. If it had been two wild animals they would already be dead with their heads cooling in the state vet's fridge. For good reason.
posted by Foam Pants at 6:25 PM on March 10, 2008


I can understand being worried about how the neighbor will feel if your friend reports the incident and causes the dogs to be put down, even after whatever process of finding facts, etc.

Here's my only contribution: does it have to be your friend, the owner of the dachshund, who reports the incident? Could someone else (say, you, poster, or a neighbor you know, anonymously or not) report the incident, so that your friend isn't forced to deal with the dilemma? He'd still have to talk to the police or animal control, still have to tell what happened, but he wouldn't be the one who reported it.

Note: I'm not sure whether this is a valid approach, just bringing it up.
posted by amtho at 6:30 PM on March 10, 2008


The neighbor is, at best, a stupid and irresponsible dog owner, at worst he's a sociopath.

Or he's running a meth lab/ medical pot operation out of his house.

I'm with the your-friend-needs-to-grow-a-spine contingent. The dogs are dangerous and Animal Control needs to come take them away and euthanise them. If the neighbour resists and he rents, call the landlord. Problem solved.

There are too many nice dogs in the world to give "chances" about ones who do stuff like this.
posted by fshgrl at 6:30 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]


Agree that the authorities should be made aware of this; police and local Animal Control. It's hard to know exactly what to do; I'm not in the camp of "these dogs need to be put down" or "just ignore this" because I don't have all the facts.

It's not your job to sit in judgment or acquire all the facts; but if you report this, it may end up being one report out of a dozen that helps establish a pattern of behavior, and that could assist the authorities in knowing what actions they have to take.

Incidentally, two adult pits that have no problem killing a dachshund aren't to be taken lightly by any means. The guy who said "what if a child were around" is understating the case; I think any human would be in serious danger if they decided to attack.
posted by ikkyu2 at 6:37 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]


I believe the dogs should be put down because they are dangerous. I believe (but understand if others don't) that the owner should be sued in the hopes that the court restricts the plaintiff from ever owning dogs again (they obviously don't know how to care for them).

BUT... the breed of the dogs is irrelevant and your making it relevant is very frustrating. Would you be okay with the situation if the other dogs were also dachshunds? Of course not. All dogs, regardless of breed, should be treated equally. The phrasing of your question implies you don't believe this is so and, whether you're aware of it or not, smears my dog and other pit bulls who are not dangerous.
posted by dobbs at 6:53 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]


Sweeping this under the carpet would be beyond irresponsible.
posted by raider at 7:24 PM on March 10, 2008


A very similar situation happened to my friend and her small dog: the next door neighbor's rott punched a hole through their common fence, chased down, and severely mauled her schipperke in her kitchen. Her dog lived but required extensive surgery and racked up a ton of vet bills. My friend reported the attack to her own homeowners insurance company, who contacted her neighbor's insurance company and an compensatory agreement was reached. Part of the agreement was her neighbor's insurance company refused to continue to carry his policy unless he got rid of the rottweiler. Faced with losing his coverage and unable to palm off a dog with a violent history to a rescue group, he had the dog put down, a step he was unwilling to take until the insurance companies got involved.
posted by jamaro at 7:25 PM on March 10, 2008 [2 favorites]


And sharks should be treated as goldfish, Dobbs?
posted by raider at 7:31 PM on March 10, 2008 [2 favorites]


Pit bulls have a tendency toward dog aggression, and these two may be dangerous to dogs but not to humans. Even if they are only a danger to small dogs, would your friend wish the same heartbreak on anyone else? If animal control gets involved, it may only result in something like a muzzling requirement, not necessarily euthanasia. Are the pit bulls spayed/neutered? They should be. Your friend should at the very least insist that all precautions are taken in the future, and probably should contact animal control as well. Going into another dog's house and killing it is disturbing behavior.
posted by Mr Bunnsy at 7:51 PM on March 10, 2008


You asked: If/when he files a police report and if/when the dogs get put down, how does he deal with the terrible bad blood that would arise between him and his neighbor?

The bad blood was inevitable when the neighbor's dogs attacked and killed his dog, in his own house, and that whatever he does now is just followup. Frankly, it's the neighbor who should be concerned about the terrible bad blood.

Here are some articles to back up some of the assertions above (taken from Wikipedia). Remember that the dogs in question are known to have attacked and killed. So any arguments that they shouldn't be put down just because they're pit bulls fails. So if you remove the words "pit bull(s)" and replace them with "dog(s) known to have attacked and killed before" the headlines are just as chilling.

Pit Bulls Kill Small Dog Chained In Family's Yard. WJZ-TV (CBS), April 25, 2007; Woodland, Maryland USA.

Pit Bulls Kill Poodle, Attack Woman Near Middle School. KNBC-TV, June 6, 2007; Tustin, California USA.

Pit Bull Attacks Iowa Police Horse. Waterloo-Cedar Falls Courier, June 1, 2007; Waterloo, Iowa USA.

Pit Bull Attacks, Kills Show Horse. KMBC-TV, March 5, 2007; Leavenworth County, Kansas USA.

Pit Bulls Kill Race Horse. AOL Sports, March 1, 2007; Spokane Valley, Washington USA.

Joey Porter's dogs get loose, kill miniature horse. Pittsburgh Post-Gazette newspaper, September 21, 2006; Pine, Pennsylvania USA.

Dogs Shot, Killed After They Attack Goat, Horse. KMGN-TV, September 13, 2005; Denver, Colorado USA.

Pit bull attacks police horse in Golden Gate Park. San Francisco Chronicle newspaper, November 23, 2003

George the Jack Russell dies saving kids. The Sydney Morning Herald Australian newspaper, May 2, 2007; location: Manaia, New Zealand,

Girl, 5, stood no chance against pit bull. The Times, UK newspaper September 3, 2007. Location: United Kingdom.

Pit bulls euthanized after mauling 90-year-old who died. Contra Costa Times/Associated Press, May 27, 2007; San Antonio, Texas USA.

Pit bull kills child and injures grandmother. The Independent newspaper, January 2, 2007; London, England UK.

Pit bull owner sentenced to 3 years in fatal mauling. The Washington Times, March 30, 2006; Spotsylvania, Virginia USA

Girl killed by pit bull terrier. BBC, January 1, 2007; London, England UK

Pit bull jumps fence and kills gardener, 71. Associated Press, July 28, 2006; Kansas City, Kansas USA.

Pit bull kills 91-year-old Detroit woman. The Detroit News, December 6, 2005; Detroit, Michigan USA.

S.F. boy, 12, killed by his family's pit bulls. San Francisco Chronicle newspaper, June 4, 2005; San Francisco, California USA.

Pit Bull Kills Child in Huntington. WBOY-TV (NBC TV), May 18, 2005; Huntington, West Virginia USA.

Pit Bulls Kill Owner In Home. CBS News, May 12, 2005; St. Louis, Missouri USA.

Dog Kills Month-old Infant Sleeping with Mom. Sunherald.com, December 14, 2004; Shoreline Park, Mississippi USA.

Pit Bull Kills Big Isle tot, mauls mom. Honolulu Star-Bulletin newspaper, June 10, 2001; Honolulu, Hawaii USA.

Pit Bull Kills California Boy. The New York Times newspaper, June 15, 1987; New York, NY USA.
posted by Capri at 7:59 PM on March 10, 2008


Like uandt (I believe), I'm posting not as a devil's advocate, and not as dog-attack-apologist, but as someone wishing for a calmer and more rational approach. I see several many knee jerk reactions in this thread, and I see people hypothesizing that the dogs jumped the fence (they did not, according to the facts presented by the OP), I even see the OP suggesting that the attack was premeditated (which is an exceedingly difficult suggestion to prove, notwithstanding the discussion of whether dogs in general are capable of premeditated recreational killing).

I have absolutely no problem with putting down a dangerous animal. Dangerous is difficult to quantify though, and the physical and cognitive differences between dogs and humans is no reason or justification to be callous with their lives.

If the master of the dead pet were my close friend, I would counsel them to not take any immediate steps until he is certain that he can proceed with a rational mindset - other than letting the neighbor know that if his dogs are seen outside until further notice, they will be reported to the harsh hands of the law. Further, I would suggest that before he endeavored to have these dogs put down, that the situation should be examined as best as possible so that any other facts regarding the incident can be be brought to light and considered.

Depending on local laws, fence maintenance can be the responsibility of one home owner, other other, or both. What if the victim's master was responsible for fence maintenance, but had been negligent? Surely that doesn't shift the blame to one side, but we don't know all of the facts. Small dogs can be bullies too. There is a possibility that there is a history between the involved dogs that we are unaware of. I could go on and on, but I do not see that any of us, with the possible exception of the OP, can have enough information to call for the death of these animals, though this course of action and the implications of *not* pursuing it (based on the facts we have been presented) should indeed be discussed in this thread, as they have been.

And now, an anecdote.
Quite recently, my fiance's cousin, with her pet chihuahua, visited one of her friends. Her friend has a boxer. The chihuahua and the boxer have met and played on many previous occasions. At the time of the visit, the boxer had eight-week old puppies. Upon the arrival of the girl and her chihuahua, without immediate proximity o the puppies, the boxer sprang forth, snatched the chihuahua in its mouth and shook it until it died. Of course, nobody had bothered thinking through the potential consequences of bringing another dog over while a mother dog had puppies, nonetheless, the little dog was killed. Nobody ever considered reporting the boxer or having it put down. However, it has tasted doggy blood and hasn't turned into a murderous monster, but rather retained it's usual kind demeanor and hasn't threatened a person or animal since the incident. Fatal situations can arise from keeping animals as pets, but not every death should end with more death.

Though the right and correct course of action in this case may indeed be putting the pit bulls down, I would suggest that the master should not pursue that course of action until he is certain that he knows all he can about the situation and any *possibly extenuating* circumstances.
posted by terpia at 8:12 PM on March 10, 2008


Contact animal control. We had a pair of rottweilers in my old neighborhood that killed multiple cats and dogs. One day, a feeble old lady stepped outside to get her mail. The dogs chased her down the driveway, ran her into the kitchen, and partially tore her kitchen's screen door. I don't know what stopped them, but they didn't continue through the door. Her deaf adult daughter was home, so maybe another person spooked them?

I had never known rotts to be mean or poor tempered prior to those two. I love animals to death, but I wouldn't hesitate to contact animal control on those pits. The owner should face criminal charges. That's horrible, that poor doxie.

About a year ago, a neighbor rescued a large mutt from the pound. Every morning, the dog was staring at us (me and a young child) when we'd leave. It was creepy. I talked to the neighbor, she apologized, admitted she was having trouble restraining, etc. But, one morning, after we were safely in the car, the dog ran and slammed into my kid's door and window. We were safe, but it was like something out of Cujo with all that snarling and scratching. I tried calling the neighbor from the car. After no answer, I called animal control and we haven't seen the dog since.
posted by ick at 8:16 PM on March 10, 2008


terpia, seriously?

Further, I would suggest that before he endeavored to have these dogs put down, that the situation should be examined as best as possible so that any other facts regarding the incident can be be brought to light and considered.


The only people who will have a say in whether the dogs are euthanised are the dogs' owner, if he chooses to do so voluntarily, and animal control. It is not an automatic determination that they will be put down. The dead dog's owner isn't the one who gets to decide.

And what's to be rational about? Dogs entered his house and killed his dogs. This didn't happen at a dog park, or on the pits' territory, which might arguably explain their behavior. Where are you from that when big dogs invade your territory and kill a member of your pack, you should carefully think about what to do next?

changeling, one more thing: if your friend does nothing, and the dogs do something else on his property and injure a guest, he could easily be liable. And ask your friend to think why calling animal control would cause "bad blood" between him and his neighbor, but this event wouldn't?
posted by rtha at 8:31 PM on March 10, 2008


Those dogs need to be put down. I say this as a dog lover and companion to a sweet pit mix.
posted by pmbuko at 8:47 PM on March 10, 2008


@rtha

Seriously! I'm not posting to be a funny guy.

Endeavoring to have the dogs put down is a nice way saying that you'll let your neighbor know that this is what you want to have happen. Maybe the neighbor will see the problem he has on his hands, maybe he won't. The next step would be to get animal control, the police, insurance companies and lawyers involved, and then the courts get to decide. Believe it or not, the neighbor in question might already be independently considering having the dogs euthanized.

"And what's to be rational about?"
And what exactly is *not* to be rational about? Because something bad happened to you, other people/animals must be punished and die? That's an awfully cold view of the world. Where I am from is pretty irrelevant, but I quite sincerely believe that some people carefully think about retaliatory/punitive punishment or killing, and some don't. I'd like to think that if presented with a similarly tragic situation that I would think carefully before doing.... wait, what are you suggesting?
posted by terpia at 9:04 PM on March 10, 2008


The dogs didn't jump the fence - they tore a hole in it to get to the dachshund. They can easily do so again. Putting them down isn't retaliatory or punitive, it's preventive.

In the event the owner is already independently considering euthanization, he should have no problem with Animal Control showing up at his door.
posted by casarkos at 9:25 PM on March 10, 2008


I'm a little late here. As someone who has had many dogs in her life, currently has three and loves them dearly, I struggle to think what I would have do if my dogs were the offending animals (the pits in this situation.)

I know that dogs can behave differently in different situations. My little terriers are fiercely protective at home but friendly sweethearts on walks and at dog play group.

To the poster who said that dogs kill other dogs all the time -- sorry but that's just BS. Dogs are not inherently dog aggressive. They fight and make horrible noises but usually little damage is done. Through complicated signals they work out who is dominant and the other dog submits. It's over and there's rarely permanent damage.

Pit bulls are different. They have unfortunately had some of their dog social skills bred out of them. Some of them will kill a dog that submits. This is, to me, the cruelest thing humans have ever done to dogs: bred them to fight each other. I hate people who fight pits, I hate people who breed them to fight, who glorify in viciousness and violence of dog on dog aggression.

If I owned two pits (or two shepherds, or two labs, or two weimerinars) who broke a barrier and attacked on another dog to death (no matter how much the dog was taunting them as has been suggested,) the first thing I would do is call animal control. I would be willing to put my own dogs down. I could never live with myself if this incident happened and then my dogs violence escalated to where they "broke through" my fence again and attacked a person.
posted by red_lotus at 9:37 PM on March 10, 2008


Because something bad happened to you, other people/animals must be punished and die?

I'm not advocating that the dogs be destroyed. I've made it clear in more than one comment in this thread that that is a determination that will be made by animal control.

This was not a nip in the park. This was not chasing a cyclist down the street (and not catching him). What happened was very serious. It may not have been the first time, but it should certainly be the last. The dead dog's owner's main responsibility is to ensure that this doesn't happen to anyone else, and to that end, he should call animal control, and let them do their job.

Calling animal control is not vengeance. It is not revenge. It is the responsible thing to do.

Do you remember the Diane Whipple case? One of the dogs that attacked her was, I think, destroyed at the scene. The other was held by animal control for some weeks (IIRC), was given aggression tests and such, and a determination was made to destroy her.

Animal control does not show up at the door and shoot the dog (unless it attacks, I suppose). They don't take it away and kill it ten minutes later. There is a process. There are tests. Sometimes owners get their dogs back.

This incident should be reported to animal control. I'd call the cops as well, but if you only call one, call animal control.
posted by rtha at 9:45 PM on March 10, 2008


[sigh]
We know nothing of the fence type, condition, nor how it was maintained it. An old fence can have a rotten board here and there, sometimes rotten boards need little in the way of pressure to let a toddler or pet through - while leaving a dramatic and jagged looking hole.

Once again - I'm not against putting down dangerous animals or involving animal control. I'd just like to establish more of the facts before I put my mefi rubber stamp of approval on the euthanasia of these dogs.

I understand the OP's concern for the situation and the involved friend, and the OP has done a good thing by soliciting outside opinions - but we don't even know what transpired in the talk with his neighbor.

Surely we can all agree that knowing a few more things would greatly help clarify the situation. For instance, if I was the friend the OP is posting about, I would know:
  • the history of the dogs involved
  • the type, condition and maintenance of the fence
  • what was said in the talk with the neighbor, and what (beyond repairing the fence) the neighbor has offered
  • in general, the type of person the neighbor is
  • what happened (if at all ascertainable) in the yard before the dogs breached the fence
Surely, now that I've put all this effort into these "let's get all the facts" posts, it will come to light that the neighbor is an irresponsible jerk who has poorly raised his dogs - perhaps even encouraged aggressiveness, feels little or no remorse about what happened, and has no intention of doing anything other than repairing the fence (minimally at best). And if that's the situation, involving animal control, police, lawyers and insurance companies is probably the best route. This will most likely end up in the euthanasia of the dogs. There will be bad blood going both ways. Time or moving house will be the only resolution.

However, should all the opposites be true, perhaps a call to animal control to report an attack is all that's needed outside of what the two individuals can negotiate between themselves (and euthanasia may be mutually agreeable - you never know).
posted by terpia at 10:02 PM on March 10, 2008


Life long dog lover here, adding to the dog pile. Doesn't matter that they were pit bulls or any other breed. Doesn't matter that the neighbor is super-apologetic. Doesn't matter in any scenario where the pit bulls may have been "provoked" by the dachsund as suggested up-thread.

These two dogs killed your friend's dog on your friend's property. Dogs know that this is a bad thing. They could have just bit the dachsund, or barked at it, or whatever.

Instead, they killed it. On its own property. Those are both very much not the traits of a trustworthy dog.

Your friend or you must report this.

If the neighbor is pissed, have your friend think about this - how could this possibly be worse than his still-present dogs doing this again? There are two killer dogs next door. No matter how strong the fence is, is your friend ever going to be comfortable in that house as long as the dogs are there?

No.

Your friend doesn't have to be pissed at the neighbor, doesn't have to be vindictive, doesn't have to do anything except make sure that animal control and the police know and that these dogs are put down.

(If there were doggie jail, I'd advocate for that, but I'm not aware that there's such a thing)
posted by zippy at 10:08 PM on March 10, 2008


how does he deal with the terrible bad blood that would arise between him and his neighbor?

He says—and this is the honest truth, when he says it—"You know, it's funny ... I did, eventually, call Animal Control about this, just to get advice as much as anything, and they said that someone else had already reported it. Weird, huh? Like someone stepped in and took my place, replaced my role, almost like some sort of a changeling or something."

I'm a mind-yer-own kind of guy, and I love dogs too, but IMO this is your business, and the business of anyone who has the foresight to imagine them killing/maiming again. That may or may not include their owner, but, well, the whole reason we have laws regulating animals is that some people are too dumb or stubborn to control their animals voluntarily. Not too different from the reason we have laws regulating human behavior, come to think. And although a dachshund isn't exactly Kitty Genovese, I still wouldn't want to be one of the people standing at the windows, making only the sound of silence.
posted by eritain at 10:20 PM on March 10, 2008


Okay, I'm hugging my dachshund right now.

Seriously, that's something that the police DO need to be called about. As was said upthread there's a BIG difference between protecting territory and an invasion attack. These dogs are clearly dangerous, and not just to other dogs.
posted by miss lynnster at 10:33 PM on March 10, 2008


Premeditated, I'm sure.

Premeditated? I understand that you're upset and concerned for your friend, but this statement, and your topic ("they murdered her"), are really off base here, and a little dramatic. They're dogs. Dog don't murder and they don't stand around in the shadows planning on offing the helpless little dog next door. This is no different from any animal killing another animal. The fact that dogs are domesticated does not make them people.

That aside, I have a very sweet, wonderful (and comically timid) Pit/Chow mix. She's my baby and I adore her but if something like this happened either to her or because of her, I would call Animal Control without wasting a second. Even if the two dogs never harm another living thing again, they have done, and there is no way to prove that they won't again. As others have said, we don't know the entire situation, but presumably Animal Control will once they've begun an investigation.

Perhaps your friend can call anonymously and tell the neighbor that he has no idea who called.
posted by mewithoutyou at 10:43 PM on March 10, 2008


You should tell your friend that you're sorry for his loss. You might want to mention that you understand that your friend is making decisions at a terribly stressful time. Like anyone who has suffered a loss, he's trying to make sense of things. Let him know that your sorry.

Then, you should call animal control.

Your friend isn't in any position to try to decide what to do. He's in an emotional state that makes rational decision making difficult. There are plenty of details here - insurance, liability, possible danger to other animals and people, rabies or other illnesses, relationships with the neighbor. It sucks in every way possible. The only way this can possibly suck any harder is if it happens again.

Call animal control.
posted by 26.2 at 10:49 PM on March 10, 2008


I'll echo to the bazillionth: call animal control. Let professionals evaluate the ongoing danger. Fix the fence, close the dog flap... and they could still eventually get a crack at your friend's vizsla. The call to animal contral can be done with no spirit of vindiction, but, rather, in hopes of creating an environment in which all the cats and dogs and children and adults in the neighborhood can be safe. Because that's not what the neighborhood's got now, and not wanting to be seem as vindictive would be a lousy reason to let that state of affairs persist.
posted by Zed_Lopez at 12:07 AM on March 11, 2008


"Animal control does not show up at the door and shoot the dog (unless it attacks, I suppose). They don't take it away and kill it ten minutes later. There is a process. There are tests. Sometimes owners get their dogs back."

This is true. When I was a kid, a neighbor's dog bit me (I was knocking on their screen door, and there was a hole in the screen, and their Doberman came running out through the hole and bit me on the shin. I have a nice little scar now). The neighbors immediately went right to their vet and had the dog put down. We did not ask them to, they just did it because they believed it was their responsibility. And I was told, the Animal Control people were upset about this because they wanted to test the dog, not put it down right away, but it was too late.

I have always felt bad that they lost their dog because I knocked on their door while collecting Betty Crocker coupons for a church coupon drive. Even though it wasn't my fault.
posted by litlnemo at 6:12 AM on March 11, 2008


Joining the herd- Animal Control must be notified. Even if they don't determine they need to be put down the attack needs to be part of the public record in case it happens again in the future (if they aren't put down). My sister's dog was attacked by a pit bull and it came out when she reported it to animal control and the police that the dog had attacked other animals before.

Regardless of the situation, a dangerous animal (pit bulls are frequently bred to be aggressive (not always, but frequently)) who was not properly controlled by its owner and attacked another animal (unprovoked I might add) needs to be reported. There are no mitigating factors.

I sympathize with the loss and in your friend's shoes I wouldn't hesitate for a second to do the right thing.

Also as others have surely said, this is not just about the dogs- this is about an irresponsible owner. Owning animals is a responsibility as much as anything else and must be treated as such.
posted by zennoshinjou at 6:13 AM on March 11, 2008


Let the news media know...that should take care of everything. Put the safety of his neighborhood to the top of the priorities here-if a local TV station or newspaper gets wind, everyone will know, including the ASPCA/animal control/police/what have you.
posted by whiskey point at 6:30 AM on March 11, 2008


Because something bad happened to you, other people/animals must be punished and die?

No. They have to die in case they do it again.
posted by fshgrl at 5:44 PM on March 11, 2008


Response by poster: Thank you everyone, for this informative (and heartbreaking) thread -- I'm going to send it to him. He's called animal control, who put a mark on the dogs' record, though I don't know if they've pursued anything else. I'll try and update, if anyone is still looking.
posted by changeling at 9:50 PM on March 12, 2008


changeling,
I'm curious about how this will turn out. I'll try to check back for updates. I hope you friend is doing better.
posted by terpia at 10:19 AM on March 14, 2008


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