A question of faith, logic and love: where does that leave my marriage?
December 9, 2007 2:37 PM Subscribe
Love vs. trust - I love my husband very much, but I don't trust him at all. I need to figure out a way to tell if he is lying to me or not, and actually make myself believe it. I would love to hear your suggestions.
Background: We are financially strapped, he's not working and we are trying to raise our kids. Yesterday, after taking my medication, he used the debit card to go to the drugstore, and he got a small amount of cash back. He didn't talk to me about it, and when I asked him where it was (when I started to enter the amount in the check register), he said, "I gave it to you. You asked me to take it out!" The thing is, I take a couple different medicines that cause memory lapses, sometimes. I would swear on my life that I did not ask him to take the money out of the account and that he didn't give it to me. Also, this isn't the first time cash has disappeared in our presence. We're talking several hundreds of dollars over the last five years, and most of that time he has not worked, due to a disability. The money that disappeared hasn't just been ours, either, and now our family and friends don't feel safe bringing cash into our home or their houses when we're there.
As far as I know, the money is gone. I did check my wallet, my purse, my pockets and my hiding place, just in case I'm wrong. I couldn't find it. I'd like to say, "oh, it's just a twenty, no big deal." But I feel that if he's lying to me (and possibly himself), then I need to know and we as a couple need to face it and stop it. Separate from all of that, I feel like a total jerk for not trusting my husband, and I don't want to not trust him.
How can I prove something like this to him in the future? How can I know for certain what is really going on? And if I do find some way to prove it, and bring everything out into the open, how can I confront him with this without hurting his feelings too badly? Other than this, he's a wonderful husband and a second-to-none dad. I don't want this to spiral down to "DTMFA" - I want to salvage our marriage, by whatever means necessary.
I would appreciate your suggestions on clear, logical ways to handle this without having it boil down to "he said, she said." We're already at that stage, and it's not working.
BTW, I do understand that in his situation, it is almost necessary to have a budget of money that he feels is his own, at least for his own self-worth. If we could afford it, I would happily do that. We are also working on finding sliding-scale counseling right now, but I think this question is more important. If this continues, I won't be able to afford the counseling.
If you'd like to contact me by email, the throwaway account is lovevstrustatgmail.com.
Background: We are financially strapped, he's not working and we are trying to raise our kids. Yesterday, after taking my medication, he used the debit card to go to the drugstore, and he got a small amount of cash back. He didn't talk to me about it, and when I asked him where it was (when I started to enter the amount in the check register), he said, "I gave it to you. You asked me to take it out!" The thing is, I take a couple different medicines that cause memory lapses, sometimes. I would swear on my life that I did not ask him to take the money out of the account and that he didn't give it to me. Also, this isn't the first time cash has disappeared in our presence. We're talking several hundreds of dollars over the last five years, and most of that time he has not worked, due to a disability. The money that disappeared hasn't just been ours, either, and now our family and friends don't feel safe bringing cash into our home or their houses when we're there.
As far as I know, the money is gone. I did check my wallet, my purse, my pockets and my hiding place, just in case I'm wrong. I couldn't find it. I'd like to say, "oh, it's just a twenty, no big deal." But I feel that if he's lying to me (and possibly himself), then I need to know and we as a couple need to face it and stop it. Separate from all of that, I feel like a total jerk for not trusting my husband, and I don't want to not trust him.
How can I prove something like this to him in the future? How can I know for certain what is really going on? And if I do find some way to prove it, and bring everything out into the open, how can I confront him with this without hurting his feelings too badly? Other than this, he's a wonderful husband and a second-to-none dad. I don't want this to spiral down to "DTMFA" - I want to salvage our marriage, by whatever means necessary.
I would appreciate your suggestions on clear, logical ways to handle this without having it boil down to "he said, she said." We're already at that stage, and it's not working.
BTW, I do understand that in his situation, it is almost necessary to have a budget of money that he feels is his own, at least for his own self-worth. If we could afford it, I would happily do that. We are also working on finding sliding-scale counseling right now, but I think this question is more important. If this continues, I won't be able to afford the counseling.
If you'd like to contact me by email, the throwaway account is lovevstrustatgmail.com.
yeah, you need to be writing things down, really religiously.
and i also think you can't afford NOT to have a private allowance budget. even if it's just $20 a month- it will allow him to not have to lie to you (if that's what he's doing), which might save the marriage.
posted by twistofrhyme at 2:49 PM on December 9, 2007 [1 favorite]
and i also think you can't afford NOT to have a private allowance budget. even if it's just $20 a month- it will allow him to not have to lie to you (if that's what he's doing), which might save the marriage.
posted by twistofrhyme at 2:49 PM on December 9, 2007 [1 favorite]
Unaccounted-for money is not really the issue here, as I read your question. Several hundred dollars over five years is not much money to be unaccounted for. Really, that's a few dollars a month. Talk to people whose loved ones have gambling problems or drug problems, and it could be much worse.
I do think it is important for each spouse/partner to have some discretionary money. Sometimes I like to have a little cash on me so I don't have to explain every book or food purchase I make to my wife; we jokingly refer to the money that just "disappears" when I have it, and it's no big deal.
The issue is your suspicion of theft. But going by the facts set forth in your question, I don't think there's enough information to advise you. Do you have any reason to think he is stealing, other than some money going missing? Is it possible it could be any of your kids? If I had to guess, with no other information, who was stealing money, I would be inclined to suspect kids.
Would you be able to be more specific about the circumstances:
(1) When did family members' and friends' money go missing?
(2) Who else was in the household when it went missing?
(3) Why is your husband not working now?
(4) How old are your kids?
(5) Have you tried setting a "trap," and seeing if he takes it? (I think that's a really crummy thing to do to your spouse, frankly, but if you really think he's stealing from anyone who enters your household, it's worth verifying it.)
posted by jayder at 2:49 PM on December 9, 2007 [1 favorite]
I do think it is important for each spouse/partner to have some discretionary money. Sometimes I like to have a little cash on me so I don't have to explain every book or food purchase I make to my wife; we jokingly refer to the money that just "disappears" when I have it, and it's no big deal.
The issue is your suspicion of theft. But going by the facts set forth in your question, I don't think there's enough information to advise you. Do you have any reason to think he is stealing, other than some money going missing? Is it possible it could be any of your kids? If I had to guess, with no other information, who was stealing money, I would be inclined to suspect kids.
Would you be able to be more specific about the circumstances:
(1) When did family members' and friends' money go missing?
(2) Who else was in the household when it went missing?
(3) Why is your husband not working now?
(4) How old are your kids?
(5) Have you tried setting a "trap," and seeing if he takes it? (I think that's a really crummy thing to do to your spouse, frankly, but if you really think he's stealing from anyone who enters your household, it's worth verifying it.)
posted by jayder at 2:49 PM on December 9, 2007 [1 favorite]
I'm not married and I'm only 24, so this may be way out of left field, but is there anything he could conceivably be buying with the money, if he is indeed taking it, which he thinks you wouldn't approve of? I hate to mention pornography, but it's sort of the first thing that came to mind - it's a purchase which might be thought by him to be basically undetectable as it's such a small amount of money per week or per month, and - not knowing the nature of his disability or how financially difficult things are for your family - might also make him feel that he's got a measure of independence from you, that he doesn't have to go to you for, um, everything.
I don't have any advice on how to confront him or deal with the issue once you both talk about it, but I wish you and your family the best.
On preview: perhaps the kids are doing it. Hadn't thought of that.
posted by mdonley at 2:53 PM on December 9, 2007
I don't have any advice on how to confront him or deal with the issue once you both talk about it, but I wish you and your family the best.
On preview: perhaps the kids are doing it. Hadn't thought of that.
posted by mdonley at 2:53 PM on December 9, 2007
I thought "porn" too, but that doesn't explain it going missing from your friends as well. Maybe it's both his porn and a light-fingered kid?
posted by bonaldi at 3:09 PM on December 9, 2007
posted by bonaldi at 3:09 PM on December 9, 2007
jayder is right on: It's the possible theft that's the issue.
300 dollars over five years = $5 / month = sixteen cents / day. That money is under the couch cushions.
My thought was also porn, or the occasional pack of cigarettes, or maintaining a marijuana stash for incredibly sporadic use, or betting a twenty on the game. You could have a conversation with him like, "look, I won't be mad, or maybe just a little bit, but it's so much worse feeling like either I'm crazy or you're lying to me."
(I imagine you already ruled out the possibility that the medication or your associated memory loss makes you paranoid. I just mention it because I know people whose medication made them very paranoid.)
posted by salvia at 3:26 PM on December 9, 2007
300 dollars over five years = $5 / month = sixteen cents / day. That money is under the couch cushions.
My thought was also porn, or the occasional pack of cigarettes, or maintaining a marijuana stash for incredibly sporadic use, or betting a twenty on the game. You could have a conversation with him like, "look, I won't be mad, or maybe just a little bit, but it's so much worse feeling like either I'm crazy or you're lying to me."
(I imagine you already ruled out the possibility that the medication or your associated memory loss makes you paranoid. I just mention it because I know people whose medication made them very paranoid.)
posted by salvia at 3:26 PM on December 9, 2007
Many good comments about the greater trust issues and the potential deeper problems.
Meanwhile, if you really just want to prevent a repeat, you can close off the "You told me to take out the cash, you just don't remember" avenue for good.
Let your husband know that you won't be making that request 'again'. From now on, if you need cash, you'll get it yourself.
You won't have to worry about memory lapses, and he'll know he can't play that card again. (You could spin it that he should be relieved, by sticking to exact-amount-of-purchase transactions only, he won't be "blamed" for your "spotty memory" ever again!)
posted by GuffProof at 3:38 PM on December 9, 2007 [2 favorites]
Meanwhile, if you really just want to prevent a repeat, you can close off the "You told me to take out the cash, you just don't remember" avenue for good.
Let your husband know that you won't be making that request 'again'. From now on, if you need cash, you'll get it yourself.
You won't have to worry about memory lapses, and he'll know he can't play that card again. (You could spin it that he should be relieved, by sticking to exact-amount-of-purchase transactions only, he won't be "blamed" for your "spotty memory" ever again!)
posted by GuffProof at 3:38 PM on December 9, 2007 [2 favorites]
It seems that the money is really just a placeholder for the bigger issue, eg, "can I trust him?" Ask yourself this: Do you trust him to raise your children? Do you trust him to remain faithful to you?
If you trust him in these things, perhaps the money issue should just be separated from the trust issue. I know you say you can't afford to put him on his own budget, but think of it this way: Can you afford to lose trust in your marriage because of distrust over a few bucks a week? Put him on a budget, like, $5 to $15 a week that's purely discretionary money, cash that he can use however he wants. Then you make all the expenditures for groceries, rent, utilities, gas, insurance, etc. Give yourself a few bucks a week for your own budget so thatway he doesn't resent it when you are making discretionary purchases when you also hold the purse strings. Trust me, you really CAN afford to budget this way. Take the money out of your grocery budget, or don't have high-speed internet or cut back on the cell phone plan or something, but if the trust issue is just over these small amounts of money than you can solve the problem with budgeting.
Good luck on this.
posted by Happydaz at 3:42 PM on December 9, 2007
If you trust him in these things, perhaps the money issue should just be separated from the trust issue. I know you say you can't afford to put him on his own budget, but think of it this way: Can you afford to lose trust in your marriage because of distrust over a few bucks a week? Put him on a budget, like, $5 to $15 a week that's purely discretionary money, cash that he can use however he wants. Then you make all the expenditures for groceries, rent, utilities, gas, insurance, etc. Give yourself a few bucks a week for your own budget so thatway he doesn't resent it when you are making discretionary purchases when you also hold the purse strings. Trust me, you really CAN afford to budget this way. Take the money out of your grocery budget, or don't have high-speed internet or cut back on the cell phone plan or something, but if the trust issue is just over these small amounts of money than you can solve the problem with budgeting.
Good luck on this.
posted by Happydaz at 3:42 PM on December 9, 2007
The root problem is that he has no discretionary spending - he needs some!
I realise that you are frustrated and upset by the possibility that he lied about it. I don't mean to defend his possible theft, but many people (particularly in his position) might consider that to be a sort of white lie - as you say, it's a small amount of money.
You should sit down with him and come to some sort of arrangement where he has money he can spend however he wants. It need not be a lot of money (if you are financially strapped) but it should be something so he need not justify his every purchase to you.
If (as you say) he is otherwise a great husband and father, then I would forgive and forget about the missing $20. Start writing it all down though - if you continue to lose money after he has an allowance, that might suggest the money is getting lost in some other way.
posted by Count Ziggurat at 3:55 PM on December 9, 2007
I realise that you are frustrated and upset by the possibility that he lied about it. I don't mean to defend his possible theft, but many people (particularly in his position) might consider that to be a sort of white lie - as you say, it's a small amount of money.
You should sit down with him and come to some sort of arrangement where he has money he can spend however he wants. It need not be a lot of money (if you are financially strapped) but it should be something so he need not justify his every purchase to you.
If (as you say) he is otherwise a great husband and father, then I would forgive and forget about the missing $20. Start writing it all down though - if you continue to lose money after he has an allowance, that might suggest the money is getting lost in some other way.
posted by Count Ziggurat at 3:55 PM on December 9, 2007
And if I do find some way to prove it, and bring everything out into the open, how can I confront him with this without hurting his feelings too badly?
"I gave it to you. You asked me to take it out!"
I hope he's not using your medication side-effects to mess with your head. It sounds like "gaslighting".
posted by wafaa at 3:58 PM on December 9, 2007
"I gave it to you. You asked me to take it out!"
I hope he's not using your medication side-effects to mess with your head. It sounds like "gaslighting".
posted by wafaa at 3:58 PM on December 9, 2007
Is this a new thing? Is her normally pretty straight with other people? If you do not want your husband to lie, you need to make telling the truth as easy as possible. Trapping him, or challenging him will give him the excuse to lie. The safer he feels telling the truth, the less he will lie. That is, if lying is something new, and he's normally a pretty truthful person.
Being lied to is an awful feeling, but if he is taking advantage of your memory loss, this is on a whole new level. It's a sign of profound disrespect. Perhaps you can talk about truthfulness and how important it is in an abstract sense, recognizing how hard it is, but also making it clear that it is not acceptable in the long run, particularly seeing that you are vulnerable due to your medications..
posted by gesamtkunstwerk at 4:03 PM on December 9, 2007
Being lied to is an awful feeling, but if he is taking advantage of your memory loss, this is on a whole new level. It's a sign of profound disrespect. Perhaps you can talk about truthfulness and how important it is in an abstract sense, recognizing how hard it is, but also making it clear that it is not acceptable in the long run, particularly seeing that you are vulnerable due to your medications..
posted by gesamtkunstwerk at 4:03 PM on December 9, 2007
And if I do find some way to prove it, and bring everything out into the open, how can I confront him with this without hurting his feelings too badly?
I also meant to add that I was in this situation once. I asked my husband at the time to mail a book to my sister. I just assumed that he completed the errand. Months later, I discovered the ready-to-mail book in the trunk of our car. I didn't confront him about it because I didn't want to "embarrass" him or what you are saying...hurt his feelings.
But damn, that's just wrong, what he's doing to you.
I disagree with the people saying it's no big deal, 16 cents a day...it's still disrespectful and untrustworthy.
posted by wafaa at 4:15 PM on December 9, 2007
I also meant to add that I was in this situation once. I asked my husband at the time to mail a book to my sister. I just assumed that he completed the errand. Months later, I discovered the ready-to-mail book in the trunk of our car. I didn't confront him about it because I didn't want to "embarrass" him or what you are saying...hurt his feelings.
But damn, that's just wrong, what he's doing to you.
I disagree with the people saying it's no big deal, 16 cents a day...it's still disrespectful and untrustworthy.
posted by wafaa at 4:15 PM on December 9, 2007
You could try keeping a ledger of your cash transactions as well as your bank/credit transactions. Even aside from the current problem, if you're strapped for money this can also help you figure out exactly where your money is going. If some third party is taking cash, or if these are your lapses and not your husband's, then this should help reveal that too.
You mention that the money that's disappeared isn't always yours. I don't know about anyone else, but putting myself in your husband's position ... spending "our" money and not owning up to it is one thing, but taking someone else's money is an entirely different thing. I'd think some more about third parties.
I also agree with twistofrhyme and ziggurat that each of you should have some amount of money that's yours without having to account for it, for random crap, luxuries, chocolate, porn, giving to bums, lighting cigars with, whatever. Even if this can only be a really tiny amount of money to make ends meet, it gives each of you that little bit of personal freedom and self-determination, which maybe he feels like he doesn't have if you've been handling all the money.
A minor digression on trust: a therapist said something to me a while back, one of those things that's obvious when you state it, but which I think it's good to think about. "Trust" means a number of different things that can sometimes be entirely separate. You might trust someone not to lie to your face. You might trust someone to be there when you need them, to have your back, not to desert you in a crisis. You might trust them to be open with you and tell you what they really think. You might trust them not to hurt you intentionally; you might trust them to be aware enough that they won't hurt you accidentally either. And so on. Even if your husband has been lying to you about money (and hopefully there's a better explanation), there are probably still some ways you can trust him.
(On preview, a lot of this has been said already...)
posted by hattifattener at 4:28 PM on December 9, 2007 [3 favorites]
You mention that the money that's disappeared isn't always yours. I don't know about anyone else, but putting myself in your husband's position ... spending "our" money and not owning up to it is one thing, but taking someone else's money is an entirely different thing. I'd think some more about third parties.
I also agree with twistofrhyme and ziggurat that each of you should have some amount of money that's yours without having to account for it, for random crap, luxuries, chocolate, porn, giving to bums, lighting cigars with, whatever. Even if this can only be a really tiny amount of money to make ends meet, it gives each of you that little bit of personal freedom and self-determination, which maybe he feels like he doesn't have if you've been handling all the money.
A minor digression on trust: a therapist said something to me a while back, one of those things that's obvious when you state it, but which I think it's good to think about. "Trust" means a number of different things that can sometimes be entirely separate. You might trust someone not to lie to your face. You might trust someone to be there when you need them, to have your back, not to desert you in a crisis. You might trust them to be open with you and tell you what they really think. You might trust them not to hurt you intentionally; you might trust them to be aware enough that they won't hurt you accidentally either. And so on. Even if your husband has been lying to you about money (and hopefully there's a better explanation), there are probably still some ways you can trust him.
(On preview, a lot of this has been said already...)
posted by hattifattener at 4:28 PM on December 9, 2007 [3 favorites]
christmas is coming- any chance he bought you something with the money, at least this last time?
posted by twistofrhyme at 5:21 PM on December 9, 2007
posted by twistofrhyme at 5:21 PM on December 9, 2007
I disagree with the people saying it's no big deal, 16 cents a day...it's still disrespectful and untrustworthy.
If it's his money we're talking about (and not pilfering from guests) I don't see how it's "untrustworthy." The man, as an adult, should be entitled to buy himself a milkshake, and expensive espresso drink, or splurge on a hardcover book every once in a while ... which are the sort of expenses that could account for this money. To say he's untrustworthy because she's come up $300 short over five years is a real stretch.
posted by jayder at 5:55 PM on December 9, 2007
If it's his money we're talking about (and not pilfering from guests) I don't see how it's "untrustworthy." The man, as an adult, should be entitled to buy himself a milkshake, and expensive espresso drink, or splurge on a hardcover book every once in a while ... which are the sort of expenses that could account for this money. To say he's untrustworthy because she's come up $300 short over five years is a real stretch.
posted by jayder at 5:55 PM on December 9, 2007
Of course he should be able to buy a shake or a book. But he should also have the cojones to come right out and say that's what he spent it on as well.
posted by CwgrlUp at 6:00 PM on December 9, 2007
posted by CwgrlUp at 6:00 PM on December 9, 2007
"now our family and friends don't feel safe bringing cash into our home or their houses when we're there." -- If you know this for a fact, RED FLAG! Consider keeping separate checking accounts. You can use the guise that you are trying to monitor your own spending. If that's not feasible, everytime he hands you cash note it in your checkbook immediately. If he keeps telling you he gave it to you but there's no notation (in YOUR handwriting), time will show he can't be trusted. I hate to say it, but I do hope your meds are throwing you off... I agree with wafaa, though - if he's using your meds as a continual excuse or even if you are, too, that's not right. And the amount of money shouldn't be an issue - it comes down to honesty and respect.
posted by s77v at 10:44 PM on December 9, 2007
posted by s77v at 10:44 PM on December 9, 2007
The family missing money is the big red flag for me too. I'd seperate money and restrict his access to the accounts and try not to keep cash around, using your debit card for as many purchases as possible so you have the monthly bank statement of what shops the money has been spent at each month (matching with your own receipts to avoid cash-backs). I think the sooner you get into counselling and explore your trust issues the better. I wish I could give you advice on where to find cheap counselling but so much depends on your location; have you looked at local churches (even if you are not religious a good pastor may be able to help). I am not sure how you can avoid hurting his feelings, he already knows you don't trust him. If he was innocent of taking money then I would hope he was trying to help you trust him again by really looking for the money, if he gave it to you it couldn't have just disappeared, again. You sound like you are careful with money and wouldn't you put it in your wallet at the same time you put your debit card away, because logically he gave both back to you at the same time. Building trust is a two-way street so an internet forum can't help you if he refuses to acknowledge your concerns are valid. You shouldn't feel like a jerk for not trusting him, if this was a one-time occurance maybe, but since this is a pattern stretching over years I think you are right in being suspicious. You have probably had this argument before which is why I think you need a third party to stop the he-said, she-said loop that is getting you nowhere. Good luck with the counselling.
posted by saucysault at 6:36 AM on December 10, 2007
posted by saucysault at 6:36 AM on December 10, 2007
The original poster wanted to add:
Thanks to everyone for their suggestions. Here is what I have tried already:posted by mathowie at 2:58 PM on December 10, 2007
- Writing everything down. I tried this for a while, and it got me absolutely nowhere. Whenever I talked to him about something that I needed clarification on, he just claimed that he'd already told me about it and then we had a very long discussion about how he thinks I always forget things and it really irritates him. Every avenue I try to go down like that puts me in the same situation.
- I understand that every one needs spending money, but we can't afford spending money for me, either.
- The amount of missing money is not $300 over 5 years; it seems to be about $200 - $300 *per* year, which makes a large dent in our budget, especially when we have to hold on to every cent we can. I think that items that my kids need come before either of us, all the time.
- I don't think that he's intentionally playing off of my memory problems, but I do think he's subconsciously doing it. (Also, it's not an issue of paranoia, because the money is definitely gone, and I'm not the only noticing.)
- I think I know where the money's going, and I'm sure he's aware that I don't think it's a number one priority. But I don't for certain, and I feel like I can no longer believe him when he talks to me.
I need some kind of way for us to work together on building trust, and I think that part of that needs to be him learning to trust me, but I do love him, and I don't want to hurt him.
Try marriage counselling. Or seeing a divorce lawyer. This is obviously a big problem in your relationship, and it's either going to get fixed, or it wont.
posted by Solomon at 3:20 PM on December 10, 2007
posted by Solomon at 3:20 PM on December 10, 2007
i wouldn't have a shared account with a partner that wasn't working. i'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but if i earn the money, i spend the money. i don't consider it necessary to provide an unemployed spouse with pocket cash... if they need pocket cash, they can get a job. i realize that my opinion on this may relate to me being young, having no life partner, etc... but i'd be seriously hurt and offended if i was the single earner trying to provide for the family and my partner was making comments about how my memory was faulty, etc.
posted by groovinkim at 5:11 PM on December 10, 2007
posted by groovinkim at 5:11 PM on December 10, 2007
"I need some kind of way for us to work together on building trust, and I think that part of that needs to be him learning to trust me, but I do love him, and I don't want to hurt him." -- why are you making him out to be the one who's being manipulated and being lied to? Does he have a reason for not trusting you? You seem to be switching gears - in one sentence you say you can no longer believe him, and in the next you say you don't want to hurt him. You need to decide if you're going to keep playing the victim or be realistic at this point. Just acknowledging there is a problem isn't going to make it go away, nor will fighting or complaining about it. If you both continue to say that it's the other that is losing the money, you need to come up with a common method of accounting for your money and accept that *someone* is "losing" the money or separate your finances. I vote for the latter, especially since the KIDS are suffering, too! Put your kids' needs first, please.
posted by s77v at 6:49 PM on December 10, 2007
posted by s77v at 6:49 PM on December 10, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
With regards to the trust issues, work out what it is about him that you don't trust (assuming there's something other than him not giving you the money), and then work out ways that you can learn to trust him (like the example I give above).
posted by Solomon at 2:45 PM on December 9, 2007