Free the internet!
September 28, 2007 10:18 AM Subscribe
Is it possible to get free internet without an ISP? And I don't mean stealing a wireless signal.
There are a lot of smart people in the world…why hasn’t anyone cracked this. If Verizon and the sorts can do it why can’t we?
It’s not even a matter of money (thankfully my wife has the ability to expense our connection) take for example the CNN story on Myanmar and how the military cut the internet connection to the entire country. Is there no way around? Why do I have to pay for the privilege of the internet.
PS – my intention is not to stir a political discussion but if you really need a place to vent…
There are a lot of smart people in the world…why hasn’t anyone cracked this. If Verizon and the sorts can do it why can’t we?
It’s not even a matter of money (thankfully my wife has the ability to expense our connection) take for example the CNN story on Myanmar and how the military cut the internet connection to the entire country. Is there no way around? Why do I have to pay for the privilege of the internet.
PS – my intention is not to stir a political discussion but if you really need a place to vent…
You have to pay for the internet for the same reason you pay for phone service or electricity or cable television. It's a utility.
posted by fancypants at 10:26 AM on September 28, 2007
posted by fancypants at 10:26 AM on September 28, 2007
"If Verizon and the sorts can do it" -- are you perhaps referring to a peering agreement? Verizon qualifies for peering because they have a significant network infrastructure that they in-turn share with their peers. That network wasn't free to build, it costs millions in electric and personel costs to keep up.
As for free comsumer internet, here in Seattle we have nocharge, there might be something similar in dallas.
posted by nomisxid at 10:26 AM on September 28, 2007
As for free comsumer internet, here in Seattle we have nocharge, there might be something similar in dallas.
posted by nomisxid at 10:26 AM on September 28, 2007
The backbone of the internet literally costs millions of dollars a month for a single portion in power alone to run, so its unlikely anyone would give it away.
posted by zennoshinjou at 10:33 AM on September 28, 2007
posted by zennoshinjou at 10:33 AM on September 28, 2007
I think you might be asking about satellite hookups and the like. These do exist as an alternative to DSL when the site is too far from the "last mile". But you would still need a receiver for the signal. A big receiver, not something that would plug into a laptop.
Bottom line, no simple way to give Internet access to someone deep within a country when the phone lines and microwave links are controlled by the government.
posted by OlderThanTOS at 10:34 AM on September 28, 2007
Bottom line, no simple way to give Internet access to someone deep within a country when the phone lines and microwave links are controlled by the government.
posted by OlderThanTOS at 10:34 AM on September 28, 2007
Response by poster: Sorry - let me clarify.
What is it about ISP's that we have to use them? Why can't we log onto the internet from our homes without an ISP.
I understand there are free dial-up providers but what I would like more information is why can't I be my own ISP?
posted by doorsfan at 10:34 AM on September 28, 2007
What is it about ISP's that we have to use them? Why can't we log onto the internet from our homes without an ISP.
I understand there are free dial-up providers but what I would like more information is why can't I be my own ISP?
posted by doorsfan at 10:34 AM on September 28, 2007
What is it about ISP's that we have to use them?
What is it about the phone company that you have to use them?
What is it about ConEd/Toronto Hydro/whoever that we have to get our electricity from them?
The reason is that there's a bunch of stuff between you and the box that is MetaFilter and someone has to own and pay for all that stuff. In poor/small countries, there is typically one company that owns it all and it's easy for the government to cut them off.
Contrary to many network diagrams, the internet is not, in fact, a cloud.
posted by GuyZero at 10:37 AM on September 28, 2007 [4 favorites]
What is it about the phone company that you have to use them?
What is it about ConEd/Toronto Hydro/whoever that we have to get our electricity from them?
The reason is that there's a bunch of stuff between you and the box that is MetaFilter and someone has to own and pay for all that stuff. In poor/small countries, there is typically one company that owns it all and it's easy for the government to cut them off.
Contrary to many network diagrams, the internet is not, in fact, a cloud.
posted by GuyZero at 10:37 AM on September 28, 2007 [4 favorites]
why can't I be my own ISP?
Sorry, I missed this part.
Again, why can't you be your own phone company or electrical company?
Sure, you could be. But it's more expensive than buying service from someone else. And there's still a wire between "you" and "them" which is easy for someone to cut if they want to.
posted by GuyZero at 10:38 AM on September 28, 2007
Sorry, I missed this part.
Again, why can't you be your own phone company or electrical company?
Sure, you could be. But it's more expensive than buying service from someone else. And there's still a wire between "you" and "them" which is easy for someone to cut if they want to.
posted by GuyZero at 10:38 AM on September 28, 2007
Transmitting significant amounts of data over significant distance takes a lot of capital. Rogue wireless networks could help get text info out, but wireless is often regulated and the nodes can be pinpointed, so its not guaranteed tp be successful.
posted by Good Brain at 10:41 AM on September 28, 2007
posted by Good Brain at 10:41 AM on September 28, 2007
why can't I be my own ISP
How Internet Infrastructure Works
Page two. Things are more complicated than you think.
posted by tracert at 10:41 AM on September 28, 2007
How Internet Infrastructure Works
Page two. Things are more complicated than you think.
posted by tracert at 10:41 AM on September 28, 2007
Best answer: Because you have to connect to the backbone somehow. All the ISP does is put you on their network so that you can connect to the rest of the network(s) out there. To do it yourself, you'd need to set up the networking gear that would allow you to route traffic from you to everywhere else. This stuff usually isn't all that cheap, and in any case, you'd still be at the mercy of the next person/entity to which you connect.
Unless you want to be multi-homed, which means that you connect to several providers at once.
But now you've entered the realm of setting up your own BGP peering sessions, and here there be dragons.
In short: the Internet is basically a collective agreement among lots of folks to route traffic from point A to point B.
Could you connect yourself without an intermediary? Theoretically, sure. It'd cost a ton of money and time, though.
posted by jquinby at 10:41 AM on September 28, 2007
Unless you want to be multi-homed, which means that you connect to several providers at once.
But now you've entered the realm of setting up your own BGP peering sessions, and here there be dragons.
In short: the Internet is basically a collective agreement among lots of folks to route traffic from point A to point B.
Could you connect yourself without an intermediary? Theoretically, sure. It'd cost a ton of money and time, though.
posted by jquinby at 10:41 AM on September 28, 2007
" why can't I be my own ISP?"
The purpose of an ISP is to connect you to other networks. You most certainly could be your own ISP, but you'd have to invest a significant chunk of cash in the communications links to other networks. It most assuredly isn't "free."
If I understand the question you seem to be implying -- you're being pretty vague about this -- you're asking "Why isn't there a public mesh network with links to the Internet?"
And the answer is that nobody has built a large mesh network for this purpose, and the Internet itself isn't very mesh-like.
posted by majick at 10:41 AM on September 28, 2007
The purpose of an ISP is to connect you to other networks. You most certainly could be your own ISP, but you'd have to invest a significant chunk of cash in the communications links to other networks. It most assuredly isn't "free."
If I understand the question you seem to be implying -- you're being pretty vague about this -- you're asking "Why isn't there a public mesh network with links to the Internet?"
And the answer is that nobody has built a large mesh network for this purpose, and the Internet itself isn't very mesh-like.
posted by majick at 10:41 AM on September 28, 2007
Best answer: why can't I be my own ISP?
This is how Demon Internet got going. A chap decided he wanted it, and that the cables to connect to peers could be afforded if he got 100 people to pay him £10 a month. It spiralled from there.
The real reason is that a "direct line" to the internet is basically hookups to other ISPs/backbones. And those pipes are expensive. So, you can be your own ISP, if you have a lot of money.
posted by bonaldi at 10:43 AM on September 28, 2007
This is how Demon Internet got going. A chap decided he wanted it, and that the cables to connect to peers could be afforded if he got 100 people to pay him £10 a month. It spiralled from there.
The real reason is that a "direct line" to the internet is basically hookups to other ISPs/backbones. And those pipes are expensive. So, you can be your own ISP, if you have a lot of money.
posted by bonaldi at 10:43 AM on September 28, 2007
Best answer: Uh, sorry, that was rather glib. That reason you can't be an ISP because normal people don't have the financial or legal resources to buy access to backbone infrastructure. If you did, you'd be a large networking company with many shareholders.
If you really want to fight the man, you could buy a big pipe and then set up a local mesh network, give away access that way. But, I think you would probably get arrested or sued pretty quick if you did that.
posted by tracert at 10:48 AM on September 28, 2007
If you really want to fight the man, you could buy a big pipe and then set up a local mesh network, give away access that way. But, I think you would probably get arrested or sued pretty quick if you did that.
posted by tracert at 10:48 AM on September 28, 2007
Contrary to many network diagrams, the internet is not, in fact, a cloud.
That needs to be on a ThinkGeek t-shirt.
posted by JaredSeth at 11:06 AM on September 28, 2007
That needs to be on a ThinkGeek t-shirt.
posted by JaredSeth at 11:06 AM on September 28, 2007
If you did, you'd be a large networking company with many shareholders.
Or a government, answerable to basically no one. In either case, you'd need considerable resources to get on there. I'm not sure what a T-1 from a provider like InterNAP runs these days, but it's not cheap and you'd still need to buy some gear and invest in some know-how. At the end of the day you're paying for access to their network or you're coughing up the really big bucks to pay for transit.
Something else to consider is that even with all your redundant pipes and such, an act of nature can still take you dark.
In any case, now that I've gotten the pooh-poohing out of my system, it's an interesting problem to consider. majick said it, though: the internet isn't very mesh-y at all. It's still much more like...(oh, lord)...a series of tubes.
posted by jquinby at 11:12 AM on September 28, 2007
Or a government, answerable to basically no one. In either case, you'd need considerable resources to get on there. I'm not sure what a T-1 from a provider like InterNAP runs these days, but it's not cheap and you'd still need to buy some gear and invest in some know-how. At the end of the day you're paying for access to their network or you're coughing up the really big bucks to pay for transit.
Something else to consider is that even with all your redundant pipes and such, an act of nature can still take you dark.
In any case, now that I've gotten the pooh-poohing out of my system, it's an interesting problem to consider. majick said it, though: the internet isn't very mesh-y at all. It's still much more like...(oh, lord)...a series of tubes.
posted by jquinby at 11:12 AM on September 28, 2007
Sign up for a local freenet. These were failry common back in the 90s, and probably still exist today. You can get freenet shell accounts in Toronto still as far as I can tell.
posted by chunking express at 11:13 AM on September 28, 2007
posted by chunking express at 11:13 AM on September 28, 2007
You have to pay an ISP to get a connection to the Internet, because the ISP's (second-tier) ISP charges them, and the backbone providers charge them for connectivity.
The way the Internet works, and is paid for, is by a "trickle-up" process. Lots of people at the network's 'edges' pay money, and it trickles up to the big backbone providers who actually run the major pieces of infrastructure that take packets from one side of the country or planet to the other.
In a nutshell, you can't get free Internet because if you did that, everyone would do that, and then the whole thing wouldn't exist, because the backbones wouldn't get paid. That's sort of the trite answer.
To get a little more particular: what costs money in the Internet world is when you have an imbalance of traffic. If you run a backbone, and I run a backbone, chances are, we'll decide to peer with each other, and connect our networks together, and not charge each other anything. We don't charge each other because each of our customer bases get some benefit from the other guy's network, and the amount of traffic going in each direction is basically equal.
However, if you run a network that's full of people who want to download content, but don't produce content that other people want, I'm not going to peer with you. Why would I? It benefits your customers, but it doesn't do crap for mine. So I'm going to charge you for connectivity. Thus, an ISP has to pay a higher-tier ISP or a backbone for connectivity. (Also, nations that have highly imbalanced internet traffic as a whole, like Australia, have to pay big bucks to be plugged into the global network. If as many people in the rest of the world wanted Internet content from Australia as Australians want traffic from abroad, they'd be able to negotiate a peering agreement. But that's not the case, and they get charged for transit.)1
There's basically no way to get "free" Internet access ('free' in the actual sense, as opposed to access that someone else pays for) unless you can make a case to a backbone provider or ISP that you have as much content and can provide as much benefit to their customers as you and your customers will get by accessing their network.
1 - See this page. And if you think "gee, this Internet thing must be a huge cash-cow for the United States," give yourself a cookie. It is.
posted by Kadin2048 at 11:55 AM on September 28, 2007 [1 favorite]
The way the Internet works, and is paid for, is by a "trickle-up" process. Lots of people at the network's 'edges' pay money, and it trickles up to the big backbone providers who actually run the major pieces of infrastructure that take packets from one side of the country or planet to the other.
In a nutshell, you can't get free Internet because if you did that, everyone would do that, and then the whole thing wouldn't exist, because the backbones wouldn't get paid. That's sort of the trite answer.
To get a little more particular: what costs money in the Internet world is when you have an imbalance of traffic. If you run a backbone, and I run a backbone, chances are, we'll decide to peer with each other, and connect our networks together, and not charge each other anything. We don't charge each other because each of our customer bases get some benefit from the other guy's network, and the amount of traffic going in each direction is basically equal.
However, if you run a network that's full of people who want to download content, but don't produce content that other people want, I'm not going to peer with you. Why would I? It benefits your customers, but it doesn't do crap for mine. So I'm going to charge you for connectivity. Thus, an ISP has to pay a higher-tier ISP or a backbone for connectivity. (Also, nations that have highly imbalanced internet traffic as a whole, like Australia, have to pay big bucks to be plugged into the global network. If as many people in the rest of the world wanted Internet content from Australia as Australians want traffic from abroad, they'd be able to negotiate a peering agreement. But that's not the case, and they get charged for transit.)1
There's basically no way to get "free" Internet access ('free' in the actual sense, as opposed to access that someone else pays for) unless you can make a case to a backbone provider or ISP that you have as much content and can provide as much benefit to their customers as you and your customers will get by accessing their network.
1 - See this page. And if you think "gee, this Internet thing must be a huge cash-cow for the United States," give yourself a cookie. It is.
posted by Kadin2048 at 11:55 AM on September 28, 2007 [1 favorite]
The thing is, you could certainly do this. All you really have to do is make sure your machine complies with RFC 1122 and RFC 1123. These are basically a set of ways specifying how machines are to deal with sending, receiving, and forwarding on Internet Protocol packets.
In order to do it usefully, you have to find a machine that's eventually connected to the machine you'd like to exchange IP packets with. That's really all there is to it, although if you want a fully qualified domain name there are more hoops to jump through.
posted by ikkyu2 at 11:58 AM on September 28, 2007
In order to do it usefully, you have to find a machine that's eventually connected to the machine you'd like to exchange IP packets with. That's really all there is to it, although if you want a fully qualified domain name there are more hoops to jump through.
posted by ikkyu2 at 11:58 AM on September 28, 2007
Also, as someone who was around to watch the Internet change over from the toy of a bunch of smart people to a monetized commodity, I feel old when I look at your question. The question isn't "why hasn't someone cracked this," the question is "how did the people who cracked this get it taken away from them."
posted by ikkyu2 at 12:00 PM on September 28, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by ikkyu2 at 12:00 PM on September 28, 2007 [2 favorites]
I would like to add this non technical note: Support your local public library.
posted by ALongDecember at 2:23 PM on September 28, 2007
posted by ALongDecember at 2:23 PM on September 28, 2007
The internet and associated computer equipment takes about 9% of the power consumption in the United States.
posted by sethwoodworth at 2:53 PM on September 28, 2007
posted by sethwoodworth at 2:53 PM on September 28, 2007
The internet and associated computer equipment takes about 9% of the power consumption in the United States.
Source?
posted by rdr at 3:02 PM on September 28, 2007
Source?
posted by rdr at 3:02 PM on September 28, 2007
1. Go to your local coffee shop.
2. Buy a small coffee or tea.
3. Use the free wifi.
Or just go to the library. There are options. You don't need to pay for internet access, just convenient-and-always-at-your-fingertips internet access.
posted by mullingitover at 3:14 PM on September 28, 2007
2. Buy a small coffee or tea.
3. Use the free wifi.
Or just go to the library. There are options. You don't need to pay for internet access, just convenient-and-always-at-your-fingertips internet access.
posted by mullingitover at 3:14 PM on September 28, 2007
The internet and associated computer equipment takes about 9% of the power consumption in the United States.
I'm skeptical as well.
posted by chrisamiller at 3:50 PM on September 28, 2007
I'm skeptical as well.
posted by chrisamiller at 3:50 PM on September 28, 2007
usf. just about every country has one. telcos pay some small part of revenue (e.g. 5%) yearly, for the privilege of being a monopoly or semi-monopoly.
earlier this year india said they are going to use the billions of dollars in their fund to provide free nationwide (fiber backbones) broadband (2mb) service. this is exactly the sort of thing usf is for (it's also for funding minimal infrastructure, e.g. town of 1000 people should have minimum 2 pay phones, stuff like that)
posted by dorian at 3:57 PM on September 28, 2007
earlier this year india said they are going to use the billions of dollars in their fund to provide free nationwide (fiber backbones) broadband (2mb) service. this is exactly the sort of thing usf is for (it's also for funding minimal infrastructure, e.g. town of 1000 people should have minimum 2 pay phones, stuff like that)
posted by dorian at 3:57 PM on September 28, 2007
as for the power usage, not sure I agree with that number, but I'll agree it is pretty high. this is why google research and others are doing things like creating pure-12v power supplies for their data centers -- to increase efficiency and save money / the environment / etc. because even a small change results in crazy massive savings, that's how much power they use.
also, the free broadband in india is really pissing off the telcos -- they currently have a lot of restriction on voice over ip, and this would force competition and efficiency on them. (you can sort of tell what countries have poor infrastructure and/or over-monopolistic telcos, by the lowest per-minute rate you can find on a calling card from usa to that country...)
posted by dorian at 4:02 PM on September 28, 2007
also, the free broadband in india is really pissing off the telcos -- they currently have a lot of restriction on voice over ip, and this would force competition and efficiency on them. (you can sort of tell what countries have poor infrastructure and/or over-monopolistic telcos, by the lowest per-minute rate you can find on a calling card from usa to that country...)
posted by dorian at 4:02 PM on September 28, 2007
also also, the backbones WILL still get paid. got cable tv (basic) with internet and voice over ip? you're basically paying 3 times for the same thing. whee. it's like when you go to a chinese restaurant and one friend orders general tso's chicken, one orders orange chicken, one orders sesame chicken, and the waiter laughs quietly behind his hand at you.
same deal with the new home fiber services.
make the infrastructure cheap or free to consumers (not businesses, of course) and they will still pay for services on top of that infrastructure.
posted by dorian at 4:07 PM on September 28, 2007
same deal with the new home fiber services.
make the infrastructure cheap or free to consumers (not businesses, of course) and they will still pay for services on top of that infrastructure.
posted by dorian at 4:07 PM on September 28, 2007
Internet Uses 9.4% of Electricity In the US.
That is the Slashdot discussion that revolved around this link. Note, however, that two thirds of that consumption can be attributed to desktop machines and their monitors.
I assume this is what sethwoodworth was referring to.
posted by PuGZ at 6:43 PM on September 28, 2007
That is the Slashdot discussion that revolved around this link. Note, however, that two thirds of that consumption can be attributed to desktop machines and their monitors.
I assume this is what sethwoodworth was referring to.
posted by PuGZ at 6:43 PM on September 28, 2007
Seconding ikkyu2. Becoming your own ISP is easy. People would sometimes do it by accident back in the 90s. Moving the bits around isn't necessarily super-expensive. The thing is that you probably want a connection to the rest of the internet, and if you're small fry, you'll have to pay for it.
In the case of, say, Myanmar/Burma, I expect that long-distance telecoms, and border-crossing telecoms in particular, are government-controlled and bottlenecked specifically so that they can be shut down or otherwise controlled if desired.
But, in theory, M/B's network could remain fully functional internally despite being disconnected from the rest of the net. Might need to fiddle with the DNS root and some top level routing stuff, but it should work. Of course, you wouldn't be able to see Google, Metafilter, or anything else on the other side of the partition.
posted by hattifattener at 9:12 PM on September 28, 2007
In the case of, say, Myanmar/Burma, I expect that long-distance telecoms, and border-crossing telecoms in particular, are government-controlled and bottlenecked specifically so that they can be shut down or otherwise controlled if desired.
But, in theory, M/B's network could remain fully functional internally despite being disconnected from the rest of the net. Might need to fiddle with the DNS root and some top level routing stuff, but it should work. Of course, you wouldn't be able to see Google, Metafilter, or anything else on the other side of the partition.
posted by hattifattener at 9:12 PM on September 28, 2007
Also, as someone who was around to watch the Internet change over from the toy of a bunch of smart people to a monetized commodity, I feel old when I look at your question. The question isn't "why hasn't someone cracked this," the question is "how did the people who cracked this get it taken away from them."
Well, in some sense, but in another sense the internet basically grew out of a bunch of government systems, thanks to legislation by "father of the internet" Al Gore. It's a pretty complicated story.
Now, there is no reason at all you can't create a LAN with all your neighbors, or even a whole small town. Lots of small towns do this, although in some states phone companies have actually made it illegal(!) for city governments to do it. Yay corrupt local government. Civic groups can still do it.
But how do you get your packets to Japan? Or to google? That's where it gets complicated. You could get everyone in your network to pay $10/mo for an uplink, and then you've basically done it. But the costs are high enough that one middle-class person can't do it alone.
posted by delmoi at 10:29 PM on September 28, 2007
Well, in some sense, but in another sense the internet basically grew out of a bunch of government systems, thanks to legislation by "father of the internet" Al Gore. It's a pretty complicated story.
Now, there is no reason at all you can't create a LAN with all your neighbors, or even a whole small town. Lots of small towns do this, although in some states phone companies have actually made it illegal(!) for city governments to do it. Yay corrupt local government. Civic groups can still do it.
But how do you get your packets to Japan? Or to google? That's where it gets complicated. You could get everyone in your network to pay $10/mo for an uplink, and then you've basically done it. But the costs are high enough that one middle-class person can't do it alone.
posted by delmoi at 10:29 PM on September 28, 2007
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posted by jquinby at 10:25 AM on September 28, 2007