There are no dumb questions, right?
September 4, 2007 9:37 AM Subscribe
Recent talk on MeFi of religions has me curious: Given that Judaism is said to pass down the matriarchal line, and converts to the faith are said to have always had a Jewish soul, what does that mean for the children of a mother who converts to Judaism? Would it be different if she converted before they were born vs. after? What about pre- or post-conception?
(I mean you seem to consider Judaism like a single solid bloc, it isn't, thanks the Lord)
posted by matteo at 9:50 AM on September 4, 2007
posted by matteo at 9:50 AM on September 4, 2007
A baby who is born pre-conversion can be taken to a mikvah -- this is in Conservative or Orthodox branches. There's a rabbinical court that will ensure that the child will receive a Jewish education and will then proceed with the conversion, but some stricter Orthodox rabbis will hesitate unless the mother has already converted herself.
Even if the baby is born after conversion, some mothers choose to take their children to the mikvah for conversion -- for instance, if a woman chooses a Conservative conversion but wants her child to be recognized by Orthodox authorities.
posted by brina at 9:51 AM on September 4, 2007
Even if the baby is born after conversion, some mothers choose to take their children to the mikvah for conversion -- for instance, if a woman chooses a Conservative conversion but wants her child to be recognized by Orthodox authorities.
posted by brina at 9:51 AM on September 4, 2007
Response by poster: Given that it's a hypothetical, I guess I'd say I'm curious about the implications for each. If you need me to throw one out there, let's say Reform?
posted by kaseijin at 9:51 AM on September 4, 2007
posted by kaseijin at 9:51 AM on September 4, 2007
Reform is pretty mellow in my experience - my aunt is Catholic, never converted, although she's not practicing (and, functionally, is as practicing a Jew as any of us) but the kids were raised Jewish, and went through their Bar Mitzvah ceremonies and everything.
posted by restless_nomad at 10:03 AM on September 4, 2007
posted by restless_nomad at 10:03 AM on September 4, 2007
Best answer: Unsure if there are other rabbis posting on AskMeFi, but I'll go ahead and answer, assuming that I may be the only one here. ;O)
In all cases, regardless of denomination, the child of a woman who converted to Judaism is considered 100% Jewish. Converts are just as authentically Jewish as born Jews (except that they can't take part in certain priestly perquisites, but those are pretty rare and limited).
Just to put a slightly finer point on brina's post:
If there is a case where an unconverted woman's child is to be "raised Jewish," he or she can be taken to the mikveh by the parents and given a modified conversion ceremony. (This is the case in our local Reform community as well, so it's not just limited to Conservative and Orthodox Jews.)
The main way in which Reform Judaism diverges from the other branches of Judaism is that it asserts patrilineal descent for children as well (this explains the case of restless_nomad's aunt). This means that the children of a Reform family need (a) one Jewish parent - not necessarily just the mother - and (b) the "appropriate and timely public and formal acts of identification with the Jewish faith and people" to be considered Jewish by their congregation and community. (You can read the entirety of the patrilineal descent resolution at http://tinyurl.com/26cudf).
Okay, that's it for now. Obviously much more than you were probably asking for. :O)
I would just conclude with the caveat that (especially in the case of something as thorny as Jewish status and identity) one should always consult one's own rabbi to get the "official" answer for one's community.
posted by AngerBoy at 10:35 AM on September 4, 2007 [2 favorites]
In all cases, regardless of denomination, the child of a woman who converted to Judaism is considered 100% Jewish. Converts are just as authentically Jewish as born Jews (except that they can't take part in certain priestly perquisites, but those are pretty rare and limited).
Just to put a slightly finer point on brina's post:
If there is a case where an unconverted woman's child is to be "raised Jewish," he or she can be taken to the mikveh by the parents and given a modified conversion ceremony. (This is the case in our local Reform community as well, so it's not just limited to Conservative and Orthodox Jews.)
The main way in which Reform Judaism diverges from the other branches of Judaism is that it asserts patrilineal descent for children as well (this explains the case of restless_nomad's aunt). This means that the children of a Reform family need (a) one Jewish parent - not necessarily just the mother - and (b) the "appropriate and timely public and formal acts of identification with the Jewish faith and people" to be considered Jewish by their congregation and community. (You can read the entirety of the patrilineal descent resolution at http://tinyurl.com/26cudf).
Okay, that's it for now. Obviously much more than you were probably asking for. :O)
I would just conclude with the caveat that (especially in the case of something as thorny as Jewish status and identity) one should always consult one's own rabbi to get the "official" answer for one's community.
posted by AngerBoy at 10:35 AM on September 4, 2007 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Oh, just one more thing -
In determining a baby's matrilineal Jewish status, the only thing to consider is the mother's status at the time of birth, not conception or pregnancy. I've witnessed plenty of women hustling to convert in the final days of their pregnancy to ensure that their baby would be born Jewish (that's the time you really want to have an adequately-sized mikveh). ;O)
posted by AngerBoy at 10:42 AM on September 4, 2007
In determining a baby's matrilineal Jewish status, the only thing to consider is the mother's status at the time of birth, not conception or pregnancy. I've witnessed plenty of women hustling to convert in the final days of their pregnancy to ensure that their baby would be born Jewish (that's the time you really want to have an adequately-sized mikveh). ;O)
posted by AngerBoy at 10:42 AM on September 4, 2007
Response by poster: AngerBoy - thanks for the response! I have just one other question (which I should have mentioned above, but forgot) - what of older children who are too old to be raised as Jewish.
My assumption would be that older (and adult) children would need to convert for themselves. Is this correct?
posted by kaseijin at 10:46 AM on September 4, 2007
My assumption would be that older (and adult) children would need to convert for themselves. Is this correct?
posted by kaseijin at 10:46 AM on September 4, 2007
Best answer: Yep, exactly. Once they reach the age of majority (age 13 for boys, 12 for girls), they are technically considered adult enough to be responsible for their own religious welfare. After that point they have to make the decisions for themselves.
(In the real world, of course, congregational rabbis don't hold slavishly to that rule; for example, we'd never let a 15-year-old convert to Judaism without his parents' involvement in the process.)
posted by AngerBoy at 11:07 AM on September 4, 2007
(In the real world, of course, congregational rabbis don't hold slavishly to that rule; for example, we'd never let a 15-year-old convert to Judaism without his parents' involvement in the process.)
posted by AngerBoy at 11:07 AM on September 4, 2007
In all cases, regardless of denomination, the child of a woman who converted to Judaism is considered 100% Jewish
this is really interesting -- considered by whom, Rabbi? I mean, would a Orthodox shul consider the child of a woman who converted to Reform Judaism a Jewish child? because I seriously this wasn't the case -- that unless a conversion is Orthodox, you'll always find a stricter group that does not consider you Jewish, period, much less your children.
posted by matteo at 11:21 AM on September 4, 2007
this is really interesting -- considered by whom, Rabbi? I mean, would a Orthodox shul consider the child of a woman who converted to Reform Judaism a Jewish child? because I seriously this wasn't the case -- that unless a conversion is Orthodox, you'll always find a stricter group that does not consider you Jewish, period, much less your children.
posted by matteo at 11:21 AM on September 4, 2007
also, adopted children often go through some conversion ceremony.
posted by thinkingwoman at 11:22 AM on September 4, 2007
posted by thinkingwoman at 11:22 AM on September 4, 2007
after preview-- matteo, i think you're right, but i'll leave that one to the rabbi.
posted by thinkingwoman at 11:54 AM on September 4, 2007
posted by thinkingwoman at 11:54 AM on September 4, 2007
Best answer: @matteo:
Yes, that's right. I should have specified. Within any single Jewish community (not necessarily across-the-board), Jews-by-birth are considered to be as legitimately Jewish as Jews-by-choice.
Of course, I have to shamefacedly confess that denying someone's "Jewish pedigree" isn't just something the Orthodox community does. Because of the peculiarities of the "appropriate and timely" clause of the patrilineality resolution, I have seen cases in which someone is considered Jewish by an Orthodox authority because his maternal great-great-grandmother was found to be Jewish - but the Reform authorities insisted that he undergo a conversion ceremony because his family had not practiced any Jewish rituals or traditions in the intervening generations. There are some really interesting cases that come out of instances like these.
Fortunately, however, there are some wonderful examples of cities (Denver is one, as is Melbourne, Australia) in which all the community rabbis agree to certain standards for conversion, and then no one goes around rejecting other rabbis' conversions. It's much more pleasant when the clergy actively look for ways to get along and play nicely in a relatively small sandbox.
posted by AngerBoy at 12:16 PM on September 4, 2007
Yes, that's right. I should have specified. Within any single Jewish community (not necessarily across-the-board), Jews-by-birth are considered to be as legitimately Jewish as Jews-by-choice.
Of course, I have to shamefacedly confess that denying someone's "Jewish pedigree" isn't just something the Orthodox community does. Because of the peculiarities of the "appropriate and timely" clause of the patrilineality resolution, I have seen cases in which someone is considered Jewish by an Orthodox authority because his maternal great-great-grandmother was found to be Jewish - but the Reform authorities insisted that he undergo a conversion ceremony because his family had not practiced any Jewish rituals or traditions in the intervening generations. There are some really interesting cases that come out of instances like these.
Fortunately, however, there are some wonderful examples of cities (Denver is one, as is Melbourne, Australia) in which all the community rabbis agree to certain standards for conversion, and then no one goes around rejecting other rabbis' conversions. It's much more pleasant when the clergy actively look for ways to get along and play nicely in a relatively small sandbox.
posted by AngerBoy at 12:16 PM on September 4, 2007
Response by poster: Excellent - Thank you so much for taking the time to reply, Rabbi! Your replies clear up my puzzlement on that matter perfectly.
posted by kaseijin at 12:32 PM on September 4, 2007
posted by kaseijin at 12:32 PM on September 4, 2007
Karaite Judaism asserts only Partrilineal descent, for what it's worth. Karaism is pretty much extinct at this point anyways.
posted by Electrius at 2:40 PM on September 4, 2007
posted by Electrius at 2:40 PM on September 4, 2007
Since Electrius' comment made me curious I looked up the Samaritans to find they also go by patrilineal descent. And fairly recently (1924) they decided to allow Samaritan men to marry Jewish women if she agrees to observe the mitzvot of the Samaritans -- but apparently Xian or Muslim women are still beyond the pale.
posted by davy at 5:34 PM on September 4, 2007
posted by davy at 5:34 PM on September 4, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by matteo at 9:49 AM on September 4, 2007