help me find a camera and a mic
September 3, 2007 10:29 PM Subscribe
I'm making a movie! The best camera that appears to be in my price range is the Sony PD-150. What are your thoughts on this particular model? Are there better cameras out there in the same price range? I also have concerns about sound equipment. (I'm afraid renting a camera will not be possible.)
For instance, will the PD-150 still look decent if it's transferred to 35mm film and put on a movie screen?
Of course, I've heard that sound is often more important than image (particularly on a documentary, which is what I'll be working on) so I'm not sure if the on-board mic on the 150 will be sufficient. Any thoughts on that, or on how much a good mic would cost to buy or rent? Unfortunately, appearing as discreet as possible during filming would be preferable, so it would be best to have as little bulky equipment as possible. In other words, I will probably want to limit myself to a small shotgun mic. Is that a bad idea?
For instance, will the PD-150 still look decent if it's transferred to 35mm film and put on a movie screen?
Of course, I've heard that sound is often more important than image (particularly on a documentary, which is what I'll be working on) so I'm not sure if the on-board mic on the 150 will be sufficient. Any thoughts on that, or on how much a good mic would cost to buy or rent? Unfortunately, appearing as discreet as possible during filming would be preferable, so it would be best to have as little bulky equipment as possible. In other words, I will probably want to limit myself to a small shotgun mic. Is that a bad idea?
Also - from a previous related question, covers sound as well on the link within this link.
posted by strawberryviagra at 11:36 PM on September 3, 2007
posted by strawberryviagra at 11:36 PM on September 3, 2007
We had these at film school. I think David Lynch shot Inland Empire on one of these. Overall if that's all you can afford you should get it and learn how to light the fuck out of your shots cause otherwise it will just look like grandma's day at the beach.
posted by PostIronyIsNotaMyth at 12:56 AM on September 4, 2007
posted by PostIronyIsNotaMyth at 12:56 AM on September 4, 2007
Do not use the on-board mic if you want people to watch your film. A fairly cheap shotgun mic + boom will greatly improve sound quality over an onboard mic. Get someone to hold the boom, and give them a chance to practise with some test runs.
Since you mention transfer to 35mm, I assume you are approaching the project somewhat seriously. I strongly suggest you make a mini-doc first (or at least a series of tests)
- to get a handle on the process, start-to-end
- to understand the capabilities and limitations of the tools you're using
- to get your team (even if its just you and one other person) working together smoothly (which is extra important for docs)
- to make the beginner mistakes out of the way in a test project
- to understand the sort of footage you'll want when editing
IMHO the camera isn't that important, as long as it is half decent and you learn how to use it, and the documentary itself is compelling (with good sound!).
posted by MetaMonkey at 3:30 AM on September 4, 2007
Since you mention transfer to 35mm, I assume you are approaching the project somewhat seriously. I strongly suggest you make a mini-doc first (or at least a series of tests)
- to get a handle on the process, start-to-end
- to understand the capabilities and limitations of the tools you're using
- to get your team (even if its just you and one other person) working together smoothly (which is extra important for docs)
- to make the beginner mistakes out of the way in a test project
- to understand the sort of footage you'll want when editing
IMHO the camera isn't that important, as long as it is half decent and you learn how to use it, and the documentary itself is compelling (with good sound!).
posted by MetaMonkey at 3:30 AM on September 4, 2007
I can't address your technical concerns, but PostIrony... is correct in saying that David Lynch shot Inland Empire on a PD-150. I saw Inland Empire in a movie theater (transferred to 35mm) and found the image quality to be generally unpleasant. (It plays better on an SDTV.)
This article from American Cinematographer discusses the technical aspects of Inland Empire's filming process, for what it's worth. And there may be some extras on the DVD that help you out--I haven't watched them all, and can't say for sure.
posted by Prospero at 6:00 AM on September 4, 2007
This article from American Cinematographer discusses the technical aspects of Inland Empire's filming process, for what it's worth. And there may be some extras on the DVD that help you out--I haven't watched them all, and can't say for sure.
posted by Prospero at 6:00 AM on September 4, 2007
Overall, a great camera for your doc.
I do agree that given the potential for less-than-optimal picture (which audiences are somewhat conditioned to accept with documentaries), great sound is a must.
On my docs we had a system that worked really well (though we weren't using the PD-150) and preserved the audience's conventional expectations. We set the camera's audio inputs to stereo (i.e., so that the L and R inputs were completely separated, then plugged a boom mic's signal (more on that below) into one channel (say, L). Then we unplugged the on-camera mic from the camera (but left it mounted to the camera) and rerouted its signal into the remaining audio XLR input channel (so L was boom, R was the on-camera mic). The result was, the re-routed on-cam mic served as reinforcement of the picture (i.e., what was closer in the picture was louder than what was further away)-- a POV audiences tend to assume and identify with in docs. On the other hand, the boom mic was flexible enough to pick out anything that wasn't clearly covered by the cam mic. In addition, during takes where the cam mic was picking up everything clearly (e.g., a subject talking close to the camera in a relatively quiet environment), the boom operator could get "pick-up" audio footage of background sounds, room tone, or even other conversations. Never underestimate the utility of "random" audio-- it ended up playing a much bigger role in the final cut than we imagined.
Can't remember the specifics for the PD-150 offhand, but if the camera doesn't have a pre-amp built in to its XLR inputs, your sound will be 1000x stronger if you boost the signals of the mics before they reach the camera. This can be accomplished a few different ways, the most direct being via a small battery-powered pre-amp that can be rented very cheaply. If you can afford it, you can even rent wireless transmitters to avoid having the boom mic literally tied to the camera. Otherwise, with some imagination you can use anything that boosts a signal like a portable sound mixer, a tape deck, or even a laptop if conditions allow.
One last thing-- if you're proactive during shooting, you can avoid "grandma at the beach" looking footage by using a few tricks. Don't shoot outdoors at dusk if you can help it. Try to get subjects to stand in well-lit areas (sunlight is ideal), and find what we called the "edge" when composing your shot. The "edge" is that sliver of light you can see on a subject's profile when they are positioned just right (e.g., light on someone standing in front of a window will "rim" his/her shoulders or the side of the face, making the subject pop out of the background). I know you mentioned getting footage as inconspicuously as possible, but often you can position yourself so that the edge is visible.
Good luck with your shoot!
posted by Rykey at 7:34 AM on September 4, 2007 [2 favorites]
I do agree that given the potential for less-than-optimal picture (which audiences are somewhat conditioned to accept with documentaries), great sound is a must.
On my docs we had a system that worked really well (though we weren't using the PD-150) and preserved the audience's conventional expectations. We set the camera's audio inputs to stereo (i.e., so that the L and R inputs were completely separated, then plugged a boom mic's signal (more on that below) into one channel (say, L). Then we unplugged the on-camera mic from the camera (but left it mounted to the camera) and rerouted its signal into the remaining audio XLR input channel (so L was boom, R was the on-camera mic). The result was, the re-routed on-cam mic served as reinforcement of the picture (i.e., what was closer in the picture was louder than what was further away)-- a POV audiences tend to assume and identify with in docs. On the other hand, the boom mic was flexible enough to pick out anything that wasn't clearly covered by the cam mic. In addition, during takes where the cam mic was picking up everything clearly (e.g., a subject talking close to the camera in a relatively quiet environment), the boom operator could get "pick-up" audio footage of background sounds, room tone, or even other conversations. Never underestimate the utility of "random" audio-- it ended up playing a much bigger role in the final cut than we imagined.
Can't remember the specifics for the PD-150 offhand, but if the camera doesn't have a pre-amp built in to its XLR inputs, your sound will be 1000x stronger if you boost the signals of the mics before they reach the camera. This can be accomplished a few different ways, the most direct being via a small battery-powered pre-amp that can be rented very cheaply. If you can afford it, you can even rent wireless transmitters to avoid having the boom mic literally tied to the camera. Otherwise, with some imagination you can use anything that boosts a signal like a portable sound mixer, a tape deck, or even a laptop if conditions allow.
One last thing-- if you're proactive during shooting, you can avoid "grandma at the beach" looking footage by using a few tricks. Don't shoot outdoors at dusk if you can help it. Try to get subjects to stand in well-lit areas (sunlight is ideal), and find what we called the "edge" when composing your shot. The "edge" is that sliver of light you can see on a subject's profile when they are positioned just right (e.g., light on someone standing in front of a window will "rim" his/her shoulders or the side of the face, making the subject pop out of the background). I know you mentioned getting footage as inconspicuously as possible, but often you can position yourself so that the edge is visible.
Good luck with your shoot!
posted by Rykey at 7:34 AM on September 4, 2007 [2 favorites]
Oh yeah, seconding MetaMonkey's observations. A well-executed shoot on a "half decent" camera (or even a crappy camera) is far, far better than a "great" camera operated poorly.
Perfect your process, use the best equipment you can afford, and you're golden.
posted by Rykey at 7:41 AM on September 4, 2007
Perfect your process, use the best equipment you can afford, and you're golden.
posted by Rykey at 7:41 AM on September 4, 2007
proviso: UK specific views follow... I'm presuming that you're getting the PD150 secondhand, as new PD150s seem to have been pretty much phased out by the HD1000 now. If that's the case, then they're the cheapest professional quality DV cameras out there for 4:3 footage that I know of. (If not, then have a look for second hand models - I've seen a number of good deals recently as people have upgraded to HD capable cameras.)
I know for a fact that the BBC has screened several documentaries filmed on PD150s, but also that they did a lot of work on these in post before using them.
I'd nth the points re: external microphones but don't forget to pack a really good pair of closed headphones for your sound person - my memory of the PD150 was that it was way too easy to distort the sound if you weren't careful. Also, be aware that you should always always use the (b+w) viewfinder and never the colour LCD screen for judging lighting levels...
posted by unless I'm very much mistaken at 8:05 AM on September 4, 2007
I know for a fact that the BBC has screened several documentaries filmed on PD150s, but also that they did a lot of work on these in post before using them.
I'd nth the points re: external microphones but don't forget to pack a really good pair of closed headphones for your sound person - my memory of the PD150 was that it was way too easy to distort the sound if you weren't careful. Also, be aware that you should always always use the (b+w) viewfinder and never the colour LCD screen for judging lighting levels...
posted by unless I'm very much mistaken at 8:05 AM on September 4, 2007
The PD150 is a fine camera, but you should take sound seriously. People will make all sorts of allowances for picture (see the excellent Darwin's Nightmare, which has some scenes with incredible gain issues and is still one of the best docs of the last few years) and you can do all sort of great and crazy things in post with picture, but you have to get sound right the first time. You don't say what the subject of your doc is, but look into a cheap lavalier (even wired, if you're going to be doing interviews sitting down; a great countryman is available for 190ish) as well as a boomed shotgun.
And again on the closed headphones.
But uh, about the 35 transfer, you should think about if that is really really really real. DVD doesn't require that and neither does TV. If you're planning on doing something with a theatrical release and you are for certain, even if everybody calls you crazy and you have to sell your car to do it and run up a bunch of credit cards, then you should look into getting a camera that shoots progressive, like the Panasonic DVX100 line ($2500ish). What's the movie about?
posted by history is a weapon at 10:49 AM on September 13, 2007
And again on the closed headphones.
But uh, about the 35 transfer, you should think about if that is really really really real. DVD doesn't require that and neither does TV. If you're planning on doing something with a theatrical release and you are for certain, even if everybody calls you crazy and you have to sell your car to do it and run up a bunch of credit cards, then you should look into getting a camera that shoots progressive, like the Panasonic DVX100 line ($2500ish). What's the movie about?
posted by history is a weapon at 10:49 AM on September 13, 2007
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Sound-wise - it has XLR inputs for 2 channels, which are robust and allow you to interface with quality equipment. A shot-gun mic on a boom is a good idea, and needn't cost you too much (there are some reasonable quality mics out there that cost around $100 - $200, that would be suitable).
The lens is OK, but if you want to shoot wide-angle, your only option is filter style wide angle attachment - which are terrible (the extreme depth of field of these cameras, means that the slightest bit of dirt or smear on the front of those lenses will be visible - particularly if you shoot into or close to any light source).
The doco genre, by its accessible, intimate and spontaneous nature, lends itself more to lower quality imagery - so none of the above is really a problem. There are ways to get great imagery out of these cameras, and I've shot several docos with them.
If you want an example of the footage, the second and tenth reels on this page were shot on PD150.
posted by strawberryviagra at 10:45 PM on September 3, 2007