An old friend with a SO is putting the moves on...
August 5, 2007 7:44 AM Subscribe
An old friend has recently started putting the moves on me. Although I'm both attracted and available, I've been dodging because they're living with a SO of several years and enabling their cheating seems wrong.
I've been considering this situation for a little while, and being rather green regarding relationships I'd like to bounce it off a few people. However, this is a mutual friend and I'd also like to avoid word reaching their SO, so here I am asking mefi.
Is this a typical way of transitioning between relationships? Is it socially acceptable? From my position do you think it falls foul of the simple "golden rule" / "harm none" moral philosophy?
I've been considering this situation for a little while, and being rather green regarding relationships I'd like to bounce it off a few people. However, this is a mutual friend and I'd also like to avoid word reaching their SO, so here I am asking mefi.
Is this a typical way of transitioning between relationships? Is it socially acceptable? From my position do you think it falls foul of the simple "golden rule" / "harm none" moral philosophy?
Yes, this falls foul of the golden rule, and a looong way foul of it at that. Don't be a party to this.
posted by srrh at 8:08 AM on August 5, 2007
posted by srrh at 8:08 AM on August 5, 2007
This is exactly how these types if situations get rationalized.
Imagine yourself explaining to your mutual friend you you ended up in bed with their significant other. How does it sound?
Point is, you can both tell yourselves it's chocolate pie, but if it sounds like bullshit and smells like bullshit, don't be surprised if it tastes like it too.
posted by iamkimiam at 8:09 AM on August 5, 2007
Imagine yourself explaining to your mutual friend you you ended up in bed with their significant other. How does it sound?
Point is, you can both tell yourselves it's chocolate pie, but if it sounds like bullshit and smells like bullshit, don't be surprised if it tastes like it too.
posted by iamkimiam at 8:09 AM on August 5, 2007
It happens all the time.
But it is not morally acceptable, by the Golden Rule.
Were you in the current SO's position, you would take it amiss. Justifiably.
So, no.
posted by ibmcginty at 8:11 AM on August 5, 2007
But it is not morally acceptable, by the Golden Rule.
Were you in the current SO's position, you would take it amiss. Justifiably.
So, no.
posted by ibmcginty at 8:11 AM on August 5, 2007
From my position do you think it falls foul of the simple "golden rule" / "harm none" moral philosophy?
Yes. If you want to go for it with this old friend of yours, and you want to do it right, don't do it unless they make a clean break with their current SO first. If your old friend won't leave his/her SO, then it's not worth it anyway.
posted by bluishorange at 8:14 AM on August 5, 2007
Yes. If you want to go for it with this old friend of yours, and you want to do it right, don't do it unless they make a clean break with their current SO first. If your old friend won't leave his/her SO, then it's not worth it anyway.
posted by bluishorange at 8:14 AM on August 5, 2007
No good comes of this type of thing. It violates the golden rule, absolutely.
Also, from your question, "Is this a typical way of transitioning between relationships?" it sounds like you might want a relationship with your friend. If that's the case, would you really want to hook up with someone who's willing to cheat on their SO? You could be the one who gets cheated on next.
Just keep your distance from the whole mess.
posted by christinetheslp at 8:38 AM on August 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
Also, from your question, "Is this a typical way of transitioning between relationships?" it sounds like you might want a relationship with your friend. If that's the case, would you really want to hook up with someone who's willing to cheat on their SO? You could be the one who gets cheated on next.
Just keep your distance from the whole mess.
posted by christinetheslp at 8:38 AM on August 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
Is this a typical way of transitioning between relationships?
Possibly, but not among people who aren't selfish jerks.
Is it socially acceptable?
Do you think it is acceptable to cheat on your S.O.?
From my position do you think it falls foul of the simple "golden rule" / "harm none" moral philosophy?
Yes. Look at it this way- if you were this person's S.O., how would you feel?
Exactly.
posted by mkultra at 8:42 AM on August 5, 2007
Possibly, but not among people who aren't selfish jerks.
Is it socially acceptable?
Do you think it is acceptable to cheat on your S.O.?
From my position do you think it falls foul of the simple "golden rule" / "harm none" moral philosophy?
Yes. Look at it this way- if you were this person's S.O., how would you feel?
Exactly.
posted by mkultra at 8:42 AM on August 5, 2007
It doesn't violate the Golden Rule if you don't mind when your SOs cheat on you with their friends.
posted by rhizome at 8:45 AM on August 5, 2007
posted by rhizome at 8:45 AM on August 5, 2007
Eew. Not not not OK.
Give your friend a choice: 1) break up and move out, 2) get the SO's consent, 3) leave you alone and go back to being friends.
posted by ottereroticist at 8:54 AM on August 5, 2007
Give your friend a choice: 1) break up and move out, 2) get the SO's consent, 3) leave you alone and go back to being friends.
posted by ottereroticist at 8:54 AM on August 5, 2007
This is (regrettably) a fairly common way that people transition between relationships. They'll start sleeping with the new person before officially breaking things off with the previous one. It's scummy, but if a clean break is made quickly it doesn't have to be irredeemably so.
However, given that you're talking about someone who is in a multi-year relationship and living with their SO, I would advise you to steer well clear. It's much, much less okay in that situation. This isn't a two-month relationship that he or she can end with one conversation. It's not unreasonable of you to demand that this person commit to changing their situation and squaring things honestly with the previous SO before getting involved with you. You deserve someone who isn't hedging their bets.
posted by shadow vector at 8:58 AM on August 5, 2007
However, given that you're talking about someone who is in a multi-year relationship and living with their SO, I would advise you to steer well clear. It's much, much less okay in that situation. This isn't a two-month relationship that he or she can end with one conversation. It's not unreasonable of you to demand that this person commit to changing their situation and squaring things honestly with the previous SO before getting involved with you. You deserve someone who isn't hedging their bets.
posted by shadow vector at 8:58 AM on August 5, 2007
It does violate the Golden Rule, if you'd object to someone knowingly doing something that would hurt you [as much as sleeping with your friends SO would hurt your friend], even if the person causing the hurt didn't think it was such a big deal but knew you would think it was, especially given that the act in question isn't needful*. (And is likely to end in a bad way even aside from hurting your friend.)
* Happiness is necessary. Trying to find it in someone who's in a committed relationship...not so much.
posted by anaelith at 9:05 AM on August 5, 2007
* Happiness is necessary. Trying to find it in someone who's in a committed relationship...not so much.
posted by anaelith at 9:05 AM on August 5, 2007
There's actually a word for what your friend is attempting to do: prebounding. It's where you start your rebound before you've actually left your relationship. That way you have somebody to hold onto while you're letting go. Don't be a part of that mess.
posted by iamkimiam at 9:06 AM on August 5, 2007 [8 favorites]
posted by iamkimiam at 9:06 AM on August 5, 2007 [8 favorites]
If it's all right and acceptable, then you'll have no problem discussing in advance with the SO. If you can't meet that standard, don't do it.
posted by argybarg at 9:15 AM on August 5, 2007
posted by argybarg at 9:15 AM on August 5, 2007
Yep, stay away. Even if you think their relationship is crappy and doomed. If you become part of a triangle, and their relationship fails, you will take the blame, even if it was doomed to start with.
If your friend has their eye on the door, they might be trying to "transition" in a way that they are not alone. That is cowardly and abuses your friendship. Let them work their problems out. Stay away. If they break up, and some time later (much later) your friend is available and not rebounding, then you can consider dating them. Of course you would never say anything that even hints you are waiting for your friend to be available.
Yes, it is a typical way to transition, and it's more and more socially acceptable. But it is the wrong way, and not just in a moral sense. Think about this: someone who would cheat on their SO with you, very likely would cheat on you when they "fell for" someone else.
People need to have the balls the be alone if they are not happy with their relationship. But this popular pattern of going from relationship to relationship, with no loyalty or sense of commitment is just using one person after another so they don't have to be alone.
You want to be in a relationship with someone you can respect, and who respects you. This isn't the way to do it.
posted by The Deej at 9:21 AM on August 5, 2007 [3 favorites]
If your friend has their eye on the door, they might be trying to "transition" in a way that they are not alone. That is cowardly and abuses your friendship. Let them work their problems out. Stay away. If they break up, and some time later (much later) your friend is available and not rebounding, then you can consider dating them. Of course you would never say anything that even hints you are waiting for your friend to be available.
Yes, it is a typical way to transition, and it's more and more socially acceptable. But it is the wrong way, and not just in a moral sense. Think about this: someone who would cheat on their SO with you, very likely would cheat on you when they "fell for" someone else.
People need to have the balls the be alone if they are not happy with their relationship. But this popular pattern of going from relationship to relationship, with no loyalty or sense of commitment is just using one person after another so they don't have to be alone.
You want to be in a relationship with someone you can respect, and who respects you. This isn't the way to do it.
posted by The Deej at 9:21 AM on August 5, 2007 [3 favorites]
Seconding shadow vector: yes, some people do indeed transition out of relationships like this -- sometimes only once, sometimes chronically. It may be fairly common, but it doesn't make it right or healthy or advisable.
But beside the ethics of this situation, Anon, consider this: not only is this a shitty way to end one relationship, it's a shitty way to begin another. The new relationship will come laden with aaaaall the baggage from the old relationship. Your new partner will not have spent any time alone, grieving the old relationship, reflecting on his role in its demise, resolving old conflicts or hurts, and making any sort of emotional growth.
In fact, I've seen this exact scenario a couple of times among people I've known well in the past two years, and what struck me in both cases is how the aftermath revealed how shockingly emotionally stunted the person who ran out on the Old Partner for the New Partner really turned out to be. (In one case, the New Relationship imploded almost immediately, and it just compounded the ugliness of an already ugly situation.)
So, you can do this if you want. But you'll be an active participant in a scenario that very likely will deliver a world of hurt to a fellow human being, and you'll likely be in for a world of hurt of your own a little further down the road.
posted by scody at 9:23 AM on August 5, 2007 [2 favorites]
But beside the ethics of this situation, Anon, consider this: not only is this a shitty way to end one relationship, it's a shitty way to begin another. The new relationship will come laden with aaaaall the baggage from the old relationship. Your new partner will not have spent any time alone, grieving the old relationship, reflecting on his role in its demise, resolving old conflicts or hurts, and making any sort of emotional growth.
In fact, I've seen this exact scenario a couple of times among people I've known well in the past two years, and what struck me in both cases is how the aftermath revealed how shockingly emotionally stunted the person who ran out on the Old Partner for the New Partner really turned out to be. (In one case, the New Relationship imploded almost immediately, and it just compounded the ugliness of an already ugly situation.)
So, you can do this if you want. But you'll be an active participant in a scenario that very likely will deliver a world of hurt to a fellow human being, and you'll likely be in for a world of hurt of your own a little further down the road.
posted by scody at 9:23 AM on August 5, 2007 [2 favorites]
No - not okay. If this was acceptable, you could openly talk about it with the SO.
posted by xammerboy at 9:38 AM on August 5, 2007
posted by xammerboy at 9:38 AM on August 5, 2007
Is this a typical way of transitioning between relationships?
Perhaps, but it's also a typical line of bullshit attached people dish out to single people whom they'd like to fuck, but whom they expect are looking for a serious relationship...something the attached person cannot give so long as s/he remains attached to someone else. It is not necessarily but can be an "I'll gladly pay you Tuesday" approach to negotiating the terms of an affair with someone who doesn't really want to be the other man/woman. In other words, "I'm going to leave my wife -- you know that! -- I mean, just as soon as..." Only tomorrow never comes, because for one reason or another the attached person doesn't want to end the original attachment. But would like ass on the side. I would ask myself whether "ass on the side" was a designation I would like applied to me before I went any further with this.
Is it socially acceptable?
It's probably not something you'd brag about.
From my position do you think it falls foul of the simple "golden rule" / "harm none" moral philosophy?
That, too.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:52 AM on August 5, 2007
Perhaps, but it's also a typical line of bullshit attached people dish out to single people whom they'd like to fuck, but whom they expect are looking for a serious relationship...something the attached person cannot give so long as s/he remains attached to someone else. It is not necessarily but can be an "I'll gladly pay you Tuesday" approach to negotiating the terms of an affair with someone who doesn't really want to be the other man/woman. In other words, "I'm going to leave my wife -- you know that! -- I mean, just as soon as..." Only tomorrow never comes, because for one reason or another the attached person doesn't want to end the original attachment. But would like ass on the side. I would ask myself whether "ass on the side" was a designation I would like applied to me before I went any further with this.
Is it socially acceptable?
It's probably not something you'd brag about.
From my position do you think it falls foul of the simple "golden rule" / "harm none" moral philosophy?
That, too.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:52 AM on August 5, 2007
Sure, cheating is wrong.
But if you're truly interested in this person, and this person is an old friend, talk about it with them. Maybe they're unhappy in their current relationship. Maybe they're looking for a way out. Maybe they're feeling a little cowardly and they're going about it clumsily. If there's genuine interest, take genuine interest in their situation and discuss it with them.
If you're just looking for a hookup, however, then the mere fact that you're asking us about it signals to me that it's the wrong choice for you.
posted by iguanapolitico at 9:59 AM on August 5, 2007 [2 favorites]
But if you're truly interested in this person, and this person is an old friend, talk about it with them. Maybe they're unhappy in their current relationship. Maybe they're looking for a way out. Maybe they're feeling a little cowardly and they're going about it clumsily. If there's genuine interest, take genuine interest in their situation and discuss it with them.
If you're just looking for a hookup, however, then the mere fact that you're asking us about it signals to me that it's the wrong choice for you.
posted by iguanapolitico at 9:59 AM on August 5, 2007 [2 favorites]
The Deej puts it very well, I think.
It sounds to me like the issue here for you is relatively simple - you feel this is wrong, but it's flattering to consider the possibility. After all, technically, you're not cheating - you're single, you haven't made a commitment to another person, sexual attention feels good and makes you feel wanted and attractive. Plus, this is your friend, so effectively you know what you're getting into - surely your friend has your best interests at heart. Right?
Well, no. They don't. Unhappiness can do pretty strange things to people - it deludes us into thinking poor choices are good choices, and prevents us from considering the full scope of our actions and the ramifications of playing fast and loose with the feelings of other people. Your friend wants out of an unsatisfying relationship; unfortunately, they're too scared to simply leave, take the time to get their emotional and practical life in order, and behave honorably to themselves, their SO and you. They'd like you to share the responsibility for their choices. It's in your best interest to consider that very seriously; they're thinking about themselves right now. You should think about yourself and yourself alone.
You're poised to be the bigger person here. I encourage you to follow your instincts and resist. A momentary ego boost and sexual thrill isn't worth the inevitable resentment and inability to trust yourself and your friend which you may eventually have to cope with if you don't. In the end, you may emerge from this with your integrity and this friendship intact. If not, well....it may get ugly and you'll have no excuse. You feel this is the wrong choice; trust that feeling and keep your distance.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 10:00 AM on August 5, 2007 [3 favorites]
It sounds to me like the issue here for you is relatively simple - you feel this is wrong, but it's flattering to consider the possibility. After all, technically, you're not cheating - you're single, you haven't made a commitment to another person, sexual attention feels good and makes you feel wanted and attractive. Plus, this is your friend, so effectively you know what you're getting into - surely your friend has your best interests at heart. Right?
Well, no. They don't. Unhappiness can do pretty strange things to people - it deludes us into thinking poor choices are good choices, and prevents us from considering the full scope of our actions and the ramifications of playing fast and loose with the feelings of other people. Your friend wants out of an unsatisfying relationship; unfortunately, they're too scared to simply leave, take the time to get their emotional and practical life in order, and behave honorably to themselves, their SO and you. They'd like you to share the responsibility for their choices. It's in your best interest to consider that very seriously; they're thinking about themselves right now. You should think about yourself and yourself alone.
You're poised to be the bigger person here. I encourage you to follow your instincts and resist. A momentary ego boost and sexual thrill isn't worth the inevitable resentment and inability to trust yourself and your friend which you may eventually have to cope with if you don't. In the end, you may emerge from this with your integrity and this friendship intact. If not, well....it may get ugly and you'll have no excuse. You feel this is the wrong choice; trust that feeling and keep your distance.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 10:00 AM on August 5, 2007 [3 favorites]
If you get into a relationship with this person, you are going to spend a lot of time wondering how long before they start cheating on you. Just don't.
posted by selfmedicating at 10:49 AM on August 5, 2007
posted by selfmedicating at 10:49 AM on August 5, 2007
If it seems wrong to you, you should trust that feeling.
posted by ikkyu2 at 11:01 AM on August 5, 2007
posted by ikkyu2 at 11:01 AM on August 5, 2007
You felt the need to post about this anonymously. That should tell you everything you need to know.
posted by joannemerriam at 11:17 AM on August 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by joannemerriam at 11:17 AM on August 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
Look, people meet all the time and end up having relaionships that last along time out of cheating on their spouse/live-in person. If you ask these sort of questions on askmefi you always get the same answer - its immoral, it violates the golden rule, etc., etc. And they are right - it does.
But you know what? Humans are messy creatures, relationship wise. And while we can all tell you what the right thing to do is - theoretically, a remarkable number of us won't do it. And not one of us here can tell you how it will work out. It may be a train wreck, or you might end with this person for the rest of your life. Total unknown. Infact, your friend who is making advances can't tell you, no one can.
But here what you can do: manage it to the best of your ability and be honest with yourself and try to see other people clearly. So - ask yourself: how do you really feel? Attracted and flattered? Deeply interested and profoundly connected? Lonely and sad? Understand whats going on inside you before you go nuts with this (if you can). And then look clearly at your friend - you've known these people a while - is this a happy couple? Discontent? Is this someone you like and respect? Someone who seems to have outgrown a relationship and looking move on? Or more somone who is angry and resentful and looking to hurt their partner? Of course you can't answer these questions... but you can ask them.
And once you do, if you are still interested, you can approach your friend with honesty and (hopefully some) clarity and ask them if they are really interested in you, that you don't want to be part of the deception and that they need to clear up their existing situation first.
posted by zia at 11:29 AM on August 5, 2007 [5 favorites]
But you know what? Humans are messy creatures, relationship wise. And while we can all tell you what the right thing to do is - theoretically, a remarkable number of us won't do it. And not one of us here can tell you how it will work out. It may be a train wreck, or you might end with this person for the rest of your life. Total unknown. Infact, your friend who is making advances can't tell you, no one can.
But here what you can do: manage it to the best of your ability and be honest with yourself and try to see other people clearly. So - ask yourself: how do you really feel? Attracted and flattered? Deeply interested and profoundly connected? Lonely and sad? Understand whats going on inside you before you go nuts with this (if you can). And then look clearly at your friend - you've known these people a while - is this a happy couple? Discontent? Is this someone you like and respect? Someone who seems to have outgrown a relationship and looking move on? Or more somone who is angry and resentful and looking to hurt their partner? Of course you can't answer these questions... but you can ask them.
And once you do, if you are still interested, you can approach your friend with honesty and (hopefully some) clarity and ask them if they are really interested in you, that you don't want to be part of the deception and that they need to clear up their existing situation first.
posted by zia at 11:29 AM on August 5, 2007 [5 favorites]
Don't do it.
posted by number9dream at 11:45 AM on August 5, 2007
posted by number9dream at 11:45 AM on August 5, 2007
My last relationship (of four years, which ended for reasons that had nothing to do with cheating or anything related to its somewhat inauspicious beginnings) began when both of us were seriously involved in long-term relationships with other people. We emotionally betrayed our partners, and I'm sure we hurt them pretty deeply. I'm not proud of that. But we met, and we fell for each other, and we couldn't help the way we felt.
What I am proud of is that we talked about what was happening and we mutually decided not to cheat on our partners. We ended our existing relationships before we did anything together physically. We didn't even kiss until after we had ended our other relationships. We broke up with our partners as soon as we decided that we would rather be with each other than be with them, minimizing the betrayal as much as we possibly could. I think that we acted as honorably as we could under the circumstances.
We went on to have a wonderful, happy 3.5 years together (followed by about 6 months that were not good, after which we broke up, but like I said, that was totally unrelated to the way we got together). I don't think we suffered because we didn't have "down time" or because we both came into it knowing that we were the kind of people who could be lured out of a relationship by meeting someone better. If anything, I think that all of the time we had to spend talking about how we felt and talking about our shared values on such an important topic at the very beginning without being able to be physically involved made our relationship stronger.
If this person really wants to be with you, tell her/him that you'd be happy to date her/him as soon as s/he is no longer in a relationship. Do not be the person with whom s/he cheats, both because you don't want to be dishonest and because being the "person on the side" is not going to lead to a meaningful relationship for you--it's only going to lead to casual sex and sneaking around. If this person is serious about wanting to take a chance on you and about wanting to be out of the current relationship, s/he will break up with the current partner, and then you'll be able to see whether you have anything with your conscience clear.
posted by decathecting at 12:01 PM on August 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
What I am proud of is that we talked about what was happening and we mutually decided not to cheat on our partners. We ended our existing relationships before we did anything together physically. We didn't even kiss until after we had ended our other relationships. We broke up with our partners as soon as we decided that we would rather be with each other than be with them, minimizing the betrayal as much as we possibly could. I think that we acted as honorably as we could under the circumstances.
We went on to have a wonderful, happy 3.5 years together (followed by about 6 months that were not good, after which we broke up, but like I said, that was totally unrelated to the way we got together). I don't think we suffered because we didn't have "down time" or because we both came into it knowing that we were the kind of people who could be lured out of a relationship by meeting someone better. If anything, I think that all of the time we had to spend talking about how we felt and talking about our shared values on such an important topic at the very beginning without being able to be physically involved made our relationship stronger.
If this person really wants to be with you, tell her/him that you'd be happy to date her/him as soon as s/he is no longer in a relationship. Do not be the person with whom s/he cheats, both because you don't want to be dishonest and because being the "person on the side" is not going to lead to a meaningful relationship for you--it's only going to lead to casual sex and sneaking around. If this person is serious about wanting to take a chance on you and about wanting to be out of the current relationship, s/he will break up with the current partner, and then you'll be able to see whether you have anything with your conscience clear.
posted by decathecting at 12:01 PM on August 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
I am not condoning this or even suggesting this. But if it hadn't happened to me I wouldn't be with my SO of over 15 yrs. If you end up with a new SO in this manner, be prepare to lose a friend of her ex. A clean break is far preferable if you can manage it. You can support your friend through the break up, and once the dust settles you will be set. You both *might* be able to keep the ex as a friend this way.
I will go against the hive grain on this one: your friend's willingness to cheat on the SO does not necessarily a predictor of cheating on you (but keep your eyes open to the possibility).
posted by kch at 12:54 PM on August 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
I will go against the hive grain on this one: your friend's willingness to cheat on the SO does not necessarily a predictor of cheating on you (but keep your eyes open to the possibility).
posted by kch at 12:54 PM on August 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
Yep, just agreeing with pretty much everyone that this is a bad, bad, bad situation and you should stay well clear of it. The only reason you aren't is because of all the hormones floating around in your head(s) (delete the s if you are female).
posted by Effigy2000 at 1:51 PM on August 5, 2007
posted by Effigy2000 at 1:51 PM on August 5, 2007
Everyone who said this is wrong, is right. On the other hand, I think zia really nailed the total complexity of the situation.
None of us knows what you really mean by "putting the moves on you". (Maybe you don't yet, either.) Does it mean he's just trying to score on the side, or does it mean that he's finally admitting/realizing that you're much more important to him than his current SO?
Either way, you _definitely_ shouldn't do anything you feel is wrong, yourself. If you think his feelings are really genuine, then let him know you could be interested, down the road, but _not_ while he's still committed to someone else (and not for a while after that, probably).
My wife and I met and basically fell for each other while she was already pretty deeply involved in another relationship. As confusing--and difficult--as it was, we didn't act on it at that point. After circumstances took us to opposite ends of the world for a couple of years, we found ourselves in the same city, both single, and things picked up pretty quickly from there. I don't think things would have worked out nearly so well if our relationship had gotten off to a much messier start.
posted by LairBob at 3:06 PM on August 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
None of us knows what you really mean by "putting the moves on you". (Maybe you don't yet, either.) Does it mean he's just trying to score on the side, or does it mean that he's finally admitting/realizing that you're much more important to him than his current SO?
Either way, you _definitely_ shouldn't do anything you feel is wrong, yourself. If you think his feelings are really genuine, then let him know you could be interested, down the road, but _not_ while he's still committed to someone else (and not for a while after that, probably).
My wife and I met and basically fell for each other while she was already pretty deeply involved in another relationship. As confusing--and difficult--as it was, we didn't act on it at that point. After circumstances took us to opposite ends of the world for a couple of years, we found ourselves in the same city, both single, and things picked up pretty quickly from there. I don't think things would have worked out nearly so well if our relationship had gotten off to a much messier start.
posted by LairBob at 3:06 PM on August 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
You know, it is impossible for me to make a "moral judgment" here without a lot more information. I think that would be "immoral". How do I know that the SO of your friend is not a SOB -or the female equivalent?
However, I am a bit put off by your expression "putting the moves on me". English is not my mother tongue and I could be wrong, but it sounds demeaning. I would never pursue someone who "put the moves on me". I would never use this expression for someone I cared.
There is a stereotype about people in committed relationships to seek complimentary attention elsewhere. That stereotype is true. But I do not know whether it applies in your case. Clear all this up before you proceed further.
And what zia and LairBob said.
posted by carmina at 3:37 PM on August 5, 2007
However, I am a bit put off by your expression "putting the moves on me". English is not my mother tongue and I could be wrong, but it sounds demeaning. I would never pursue someone who "put the moves on me". I would never use this expression for someone I cared.
There is a stereotype about people in committed relationships to seek complimentary attention elsewhere. That stereotype is true. But I do not know whether it applies in your case. Clear all this up before you proceed further.
And what zia and LairBob said.
posted by carmina at 3:37 PM on August 5, 2007
As a follow-on story, some very good friends of ours--who are a _great_ couple, very happily married with 4 kids--had always told us that they met in a bar, one night, and were married 3 months later.
We thought that was a great story, but didn't learn until much later that she was there with her _fiance_ at the time. We still don't know the gory details, so I have no idea whether it was all very ugly or what, but I do know that they've now been in a healthy, happy relationship for 15+ years.
I'm not saying this to somehow rationalize an unethical approach--just to point out that finding happiness with another person is a messy, complicated thing. You should absolutely try not to sacrifice your morals along the way, but also, don't go overboard on the whole black-and-white, "moral perfection or bust" thing. If you think his heart is in the right place, try to find some wiggle room that doesn't compromise your own ethics. (If you decide he's being a jerk, then f*#k him.)
posted by LairBob at 4:03 PM on August 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
We thought that was a great story, but didn't learn until much later that she was there with her _fiance_ at the time. We still don't know the gory details, so I have no idea whether it was all very ugly or what, but I do know that they've now been in a healthy, happy relationship for 15+ years.
I'm not saying this to somehow rationalize an unethical approach--just to point out that finding happiness with another person is a messy, complicated thing. You should absolutely try not to sacrifice your morals along the way, but also, don't go overboard on the whole black-and-white, "moral perfection or bust" thing. If you think his heart is in the right place, try to find some wiggle room that doesn't compromise your own ethics. (If you decide he's being a jerk, then f*#k him.)
posted by LairBob at 4:03 PM on August 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
Whoops--meant that last comment as in "Forget about him", not "Go ahead and sleep with him". Just to be clear. ;)
posted by LairBob at 4:04 PM on August 5, 2007
posted by LairBob at 4:04 PM on August 5, 2007
this thread is asking basically the same question. The answer is pretty obvious, when you get down to nuts and bolts. You can make arguments about the complexity of human relationships and so forth, of course. Life is complicated. But basically what you're saying there is that sometimes it's ok that human beings fuck up and behave in ways which are immoral or hurtful, when you consider all the various factors that contribute to the choices they made, and take note of the fact that in the end everything can work out pretty well.
It is interesting that in some circles cheating does seem to have greater social acceptability. I suppose we can attribute that to the expectation of serial monogamy... if "forever" doesn't really mean forever, and especially if no one's said forever yet, then the notion of seriously being off the market may just not really register with some people. I would think that would be an interesting element of consideration for you wrt this person. In all likelihood his/her modus operandi is that even within a relationship s/he is still on the lookout - doesn't mean he will cheat, but it does mean that he won't shift gears so to speak, whereas some people specifically feel relieved to be in a relationship so that they no longer have to think in terms of "the game" or whatever, but can settle into "couples" life.
And yes, some people who think they enjoy the couples life may find their partnership falling apart and meet someone else, but there's at least something of a continuum regarding the likelihood of who will cheat. I'd ask yourself honestly about this person: is s/he having a midlife crisis? is s/he truly connecting to you or just getting bored of an old story? (Although, I suppose it's not entirely clear what you're hoping for from the situation - perhaps you think you wouldn't mind a fling with someone who later leaves you for another person, so long as it's sort of known ahead of time that that might be the way things go... You ask if it's socially acceptable as if to imply that it's acceptable to you as long as no one else minds.)
posted by mdn at 4:19 PM on August 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
It is interesting that in some circles cheating does seem to have greater social acceptability. I suppose we can attribute that to the expectation of serial monogamy... if "forever" doesn't really mean forever, and especially if no one's said forever yet, then the notion of seriously being off the market may just not really register with some people. I would think that would be an interesting element of consideration for you wrt this person. In all likelihood his/her modus operandi is that even within a relationship s/he is still on the lookout - doesn't mean he will cheat, but it does mean that he won't shift gears so to speak, whereas some people specifically feel relieved to be in a relationship so that they no longer have to think in terms of "the game" or whatever, but can settle into "couples" life.
And yes, some people who think they enjoy the couples life may find their partnership falling apart and meet someone else, but there's at least something of a continuum regarding the likelihood of who will cheat. I'd ask yourself honestly about this person: is s/he having a midlife crisis? is s/he truly connecting to you or just getting bored of an old story? (Although, I suppose it's not entirely clear what you're hoping for from the situation - perhaps you think you wouldn't mind a fling with someone who later leaves you for another person, so long as it's sort of known ahead of time that that might be the way things go... You ask if it's socially acceptable as if to imply that it's acceptable to you as long as no one else minds.)
posted by mdn at 4:19 PM on August 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
"basically what you're saying there is that sometimes it's ok that human beings fuck up and behave in ways which are immoral or hurtful"
Not sure if you were referring to what I wrote, mdn, but I was very much _not_ trying to say that "It's OK to help him cheat". The basic point that folks like zia, decathecting, carmina and myself are trying to make are that there are other morally acceptable paths to draw through this situation, beyond just saying "That's wrong, don't do it."
There are more nuanced options that involve saying "Maybe someday, but not right now, and _certainly_ not while you're still with someone else", that are completely acceptable, ethically, and don't sacrifice the possibility of happiness for an exaggerated, simplistic sense of moral piety. (Not that I'm accusing you, or anyone else, of that, but it's easy to read a lot of the responses that way.)
posted by LairBob at 4:36 PM on August 5, 2007
Not sure if you were referring to what I wrote, mdn, but I was very much _not_ trying to say that "It's OK to help him cheat". The basic point that folks like zia, decathecting, carmina and myself are trying to make are that there are other morally acceptable paths to draw through this situation, beyond just saying "That's wrong, don't do it."
There are more nuanced options that involve saying "Maybe someday, but not right now, and _certainly_ not while you're still with someone else", that are completely acceptable, ethically, and don't sacrifice the possibility of happiness for an exaggerated, simplistic sense of moral piety. (Not that I'm accusing you, or anyone else, of that, but it's easy to read a lot of the responses that way.)
posted by LairBob at 4:36 PM on August 5, 2007
those complications would make the rest of it suck, let me tell you.
posted by Ironmouth at 5:18 PM on August 5, 2007
posted by Ironmouth at 5:18 PM on August 5, 2007
Heh - prebound. Great term. I think it's reasonably common, and understandable, for serial monogamists to try & set up a safety net before jumping out of a relationship, but that doesn't stop it from being a bit flaky, and it's not exactly an ideal way to start a new relationship, for the reasons that scody described.
Whether or not it is morally wrong might depend on what you mean by "putting the moves on me" - if they're just sending out feelers as to whether you might be interested after they break up, then that's probably (marginally) morally ok. If they're actually intending on cheating, then most definitely not.
Having been in the SO's shoes at least once or twice, I've gotta say also that it's pretty damn hurtful when your partner lines up somebody new & before you know it you're out on your ass in the cold, while they're off having a ball with their new love-interest, which is why I'd say this safety-net approach is only marginally moral. I'd personally prefer not to be the person to cause that kind of sudden grief to another, and think we have a bit of a moral imperative not to jump into bed too quickly with somebody new after breaking up a long-term relationship.
Other than that, it's a messy situation & probably more nuanced than the majority of responses here suggest. You don't really have any control or responsibility over the quality or viability of your friend's relationship, for starters, and nor can we always choose who we fall for. If you frame the issue as "should I be a cheating-enabling home-wrecker?" then the answer is a clear "no", but frame it as "my friend is in a doomed relationship & putting out feelers" and it suddenly doesn't seem so bad. However, unless there is some particularly overwhelming & undeniable chemistry between you, I'd probably prefer to avoid being the new flame in this kind of situation.
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:29 PM on August 5, 2007
Whether or not it is morally wrong might depend on what you mean by "putting the moves on me" - if they're just sending out feelers as to whether you might be interested after they break up, then that's probably (marginally) morally ok. If they're actually intending on cheating, then most definitely not.
Having been in the SO's shoes at least once or twice, I've gotta say also that it's pretty damn hurtful when your partner lines up somebody new & before you know it you're out on your ass in the cold, while they're off having a ball with their new love-interest, which is why I'd say this safety-net approach is only marginally moral. I'd personally prefer not to be the person to cause that kind of sudden grief to another, and think we have a bit of a moral imperative not to jump into bed too quickly with somebody new after breaking up a long-term relationship.
Other than that, it's a messy situation & probably more nuanced than the majority of responses here suggest. You don't really have any control or responsibility over the quality or viability of your friend's relationship, for starters, and nor can we always choose who we fall for. If you frame the issue as "should I be a cheating-enabling home-wrecker?" then the answer is a clear "no", but frame it as "my friend is in a doomed relationship & putting out feelers" and it suddenly doesn't seem so bad. However, unless there is some particularly overwhelming & undeniable chemistry between you, I'd probably prefer to avoid being the new flame in this kind of situation.
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:29 PM on August 5, 2007
I like zia's approach and philosophy.
Having been in the SO's shoes at least once or twice, I've gotta say also that it's pretty damn hurtful when your partner lines up somebody new
Which is why having "someone in mind" is always a beneficial strategy. Some people find this icky. Others find it downright offensive. *shrug* Things happen. Humans have failings. I've seen over the course of my lifetime DOZENS of relationships go from "everything's awesome!" to "I would sacrifice a limb just to get out today". If you are in a long term relationship today in America, and have been with the person less than 30 years, you are more-or-less flipping a coin.
With all that said...
If it seems wrong to you, you should trust that feeling.
posted by ikkyu2 at 1:01 PM on August 5
This is actually the best advice in the thread. This has as much, if not more, to do with YOUR perceptions as it does anyone else's.
Put another way, if you were perfectly fine and at peace with this, would you really care what others thought?
posted by Ynoxas at 10:19 PM on August 5, 2007
Having been in the SO's shoes at least once or twice, I've gotta say also that it's pretty damn hurtful when your partner lines up somebody new
Which is why having "someone in mind" is always a beneficial strategy. Some people find this icky. Others find it downright offensive. *shrug* Things happen. Humans have failings. I've seen over the course of my lifetime DOZENS of relationships go from "everything's awesome!" to "I would sacrifice a limb just to get out today". If you are in a long term relationship today in America, and have been with the person less than 30 years, you are more-or-less flipping a coin.
With all that said...
If it seems wrong to you, you should trust that feeling.
posted by ikkyu2 at 1:01 PM on August 5
This is actually the best advice in the thread. This has as much, if not more, to do with YOUR perceptions as it does anyone else's.
Put another way, if you were perfectly fine and at peace with this, would you really care what others thought?
posted by Ynoxas at 10:19 PM on August 5, 2007
I've known people who try to always have another relationship lined up before they leave theirs. It speaks of insecurity and it is definitely a pattern behavior, so the Golden Rule applies more than theoretically, there's a good chance that this person will cheat on you rather than have the balls to split up normally.
posted by dagnyscott at 12:18 AM on August 6, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by dagnyscott at 12:18 AM on August 6, 2007 [1 favorite]
Gonna swim against the green current here...
I'm not convinced that making a clean break *without cheating* is the best way to end a relationship. This is how I ended things with my last few relationships of any length, thinking I was Doing the Right Thing, and it really, really fucked with their heads: "You mean.. you'd rather be ALONE than be with me??" That really is pretty damned harsh. I almost told one of em I had cheated, even though I hadn't, just to give her something to latch onto.
Cheating is unethical, a breech of trust -- not to mention the health risk -- but at least it gives the scorned something* to latch onto as a reason why things went wrong. It's "I kicked the cheating asshole out" vs. "He just didn't like me anymore". Personally, I think the former would be less painful.
That said, you're always better served to date somebody who's not already attached. This sounds like a pain in the ass waiting to happen.
* Cheating is a symptom, not the cause, of a bad relationship.
posted by LordSludge at 9:54 AM on August 6, 2007
I'm not convinced that making a clean break *without cheating* is the best way to end a relationship. This is how I ended things with my last few relationships of any length, thinking I was Doing the Right Thing, and it really, really fucked with their heads: "You mean.. you'd rather be ALONE than be with me??" That really is pretty damned harsh. I almost told one of em I had cheated, even though I hadn't, just to give her something to latch onto.
Cheating is unethical, a breech of trust -- not to mention the health risk -- but at least it gives the scorned something* to latch onto as a reason why things went wrong. It's "I kicked the cheating asshole out" vs. "He just didn't like me anymore". Personally, I think the former would be less painful.
That said, you're always better served to date somebody who's not already attached. This sounds like a pain in the ass waiting to happen.
* Cheating is a symptom, not the cause, of a bad relationship.
posted by LordSludge at 9:54 AM on August 6, 2007
As others have pointed out, it goes against the "golden rule" to enable his cheating. However, as far as the golden rule goes I don't personally think it's any less painful for the other person to have their SO leave them because you won't start something with them until they do. Their SO is leaving them in both cases.
For some reason convincing someone to end a relationship is looked on as virtuous as long as there isn't any sex involved until they break up with the previous person, and seems to be completely socially acceptable. I have no idea why this is.
posted by yohko at 4:17 PM on August 6, 2007
For some reason convincing someone to end a relationship is looked on as virtuous as long as there isn't any sex involved until they break up with the previous person, and seems to be completely socially acceptable. I have no idea why this is.
posted by yohko at 4:17 PM on August 6, 2007
(hey, can anybody explain to me what this "golden rule" is? you're all talking about it as if it's common knowledge what it means.
yohko - i think people tend to view relationships partially as contracts: OP & SO are currently contracted to each other, with one clause being "no sex with other people". breach of clause = illegal breach of contract. OTOH, if you nullify the contract first, then sex with other people is ok. in both cases, the contract is nullified, but one is through an illegal breach; the other by means of formal repudiation)
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:03 PM on August 6, 2007
yohko - i think people tend to view relationships partially as contracts: OP & SO are currently contracted to each other, with one clause being "no sex with other people". breach of clause = illegal breach of contract. OTOH, if you nullify the contract first, then sex with other people is ok. in both cases, the contract is nullified, but one is through an illegal breach; the other by means of formal repudiation)
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:03 PM on August 6, 2007
Golden Rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Modernized version: Do unto others before they do unto you.
posted by anaelith at 5:47 PM on August 6, 2007
Modernized version: Do unto others before they do unto you.
posted by anaelith at 5:47 PM on August 6, 2007
Ah, ok. I thought it was "don't shit in your own backyard" - ie avoid entanglements with housemates, workmates, sporting/club mates and friends' partners, just becoz there's always potential for messiness, and you don't want to have to deal with the results on an ongoing basis if things turn pear-shaped.
On the topic of doing unto others, it's nice to think that we can be all abstract about it & do unto all others equally, but I think there is a gradient of responsibility towards people, depending on our relationship with them. In the case of friends' partners, your primary obligation is towards your friend, so you steer clear, no? But if you happen to find yourself in a potentially dodgy situation with a partnered friend, but you barely know their partner, or not at all, then your obligation is more towards that friend, I think. In which case, it's not clear what "doing unto others" means - does it mean not complicating the stranger-partner's life? Not complicating your friend's life? Assisting your friend to get out of a relationship that's not doing it for them? Encouraging the friend to stay & build their relationship? That's why I was saying this situation may be more nuanced than it seems, becoz it's not clear what relationship the OP has with the friend's partner, what the relationship between friend-&-SO is like, or where the friend's head is at, exactly.
That's what's so much fun about ethics: interesting ethical problems are never simple conflicts between good & bad. They usually end up as conflicts between competing goods, in which case you need to sort out all the competing goods at play, including prioritising them, either from your own perspective, or from all parties' perspectives. But breaking it down into a glib "do unto others" is almost meaningless once you start thinking that this might mean anything from "saving the friend's SO from a cheater by undermining their relationship" to "encouraging the friend to respect their SO by supporting the relationship" and anything in between or even on a totally different page altogether.
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:27 PM on August 6, 2007
On the topic of doing unto others, it's nice to think that we can be all abstract about it & do unto all others equally, but I think there is a gradient of responsibility towards people, depending on our relationship with them. In the case of friends' partners, your primary obligation is towards your friend, so you steer clear, no? But if you happen to find yourself in a potentially dodgy situation with a partnered friend, but you barely know their partner, or not at all, then your obligation is more towards that friend, I think. In which case, it's not clear what "doing unto others" means - does it mean not complicating the stranger-partner's life? Not complicating your friend's life? Assisting your friend to get out of a relationship that's not doing it for them? Encouraging the friend to stay & build their relationship? That's why I was saying this situation may be more nuanced than it seems, becoz it's not clear what relationship the OP has with the friend's partner, what the relationship between friend-&-SO is like, or where the friend's head is at, exactly.
That's what's so much fun about ethics: interesting ethical problems are never simple conflicts between good & bad. They usually end up as conflicts between competing goods, in which case you need to sort out all the competing goods at play, including prioritising them, either from your own perspective, or from all parties' perspectives. But breaking it down into a glib "do unto others" is almost meaningless once you start thinking that this might mean anything from "saving the friend's SO from a cheater by undermining their relationship" to "encouraging the friend to respect their SO by supporting the relationship" and anything in between or even on a totally different page altogether.
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:27 PM on August 6, 2007
"You mean.. you'd rather be ALONE than be with me??" That really is pretty damned harsh.
What the hell? What's harsh about that?
Being alone is infinitely better for everyone concerned than being with the wrong person, no matter how decent and likeable that wrong person is.
But that's a derail.
If you care about this friend of yours, ask why it's happening. Listen to what s/he has to say. But don't participate in anything that's likely to bring down torrents of melodrama around both of your ears.
Your friend is probably going through a rough patch, feeling insecure, looking for reassurance that s/he's attractive and that other options exist. In similar situations, some equivalent of "I totally think you're the cat's PJs, but I'm not up for anything that involves sneaking around" has generally worked for me.
posted by tangerine at 10:02 PM on August 7, 2007
What the hell? What's harsh about that?
Being alone is infinitely better for everyone concerned than being with the wrong person, no matter how decent and likeable that wrong person is.
But that's a derail.
If you care about this friend of yours, ask why it's happening. Listen to what s/he has to say. But don't participate in anything that's likely to bring down torrents of melodrama around both of your ears.
Your friend is probably going through a rough patch, feeling insecure, looking for reassurance that s/he's attractive and that other options exist. In similar situations, some equivalent of "I totally think you're the cat's PJs, but I'm not up for anything that involves sneaking around" has generally worked for me.
posted by tangerine at 10:02 PM on August 7, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by thirteenkiller at 8:02 AM on August 5, 2007 [1 favorite]